Margaret Pearson doing readings... [Archive]

charly

June 13th, 2011, 11:34 PM

... but I have the funny feeling that Margaret human qualities perhaps supercede her scholarly expertise - especially when seeing the word "original" in a title which I find highly misleading. Well one will find out!!!
Hi, SeeThis:

SHE is not the only translator that speaks of an ORIGINAL I CHING: now I remember Rick Kunst, Dan Stackhouse, and Ritsema-Sabbadini.

I believe that the intention of Pearson is not to reconstruct an hipotetical older form or first edition of the I Ching, which is maybe impossible, but to focusing in the core text that scholars call ZHOU-YI, only that this title should be LITTLE MARKETER.

I found more bizarre to speak of an AUTHENTIC TRANSLATION. I believe that if it is authentic cannot be a translation and if it is a translation cannot be authentic. I share with other amateurs that all that speech was not written by Margareth Perason but by an editor looking for bestselling the book.

Margaret Pearson is known in this forum, she gave a seminar here in Clarity and in the Needham Institute. I foun her credited in Nylan's translation. I believe that is a good sign to be not only a scholar but also a user of the Changes.

I'm waiting a good work.

Yours,

Charly

The Original I Ching: An Authentic Translation of the Book of Changes

seethis

June 14th, 2011, 08:16 AM

Yes, I agree. One can only hope that her lack of scholarly publication is compensated by an urge to teach in the here and now. I was only concerned that some of the comments above seem to suggest that scholarly credentials would in any way enhance insight into the Yi as a book of divination today. I am pretty certain that these are two completely different things, though one should never avoid to explore the limits of possible understanding if it comes to the historical origines of the Yi. In my opinion it helps not to inappropriatly idealise what is called "original" - perhaps an age-old problem even of the Yi itself, hey?

charly

June 16th, 2011, 12:26 AM

Yes, I agree. One can only hope that her lack of scholarly publication is compensated by an urge to teach in the here and now. ...
Hi, Seethis:

A sample from her translation of the book you quote:

治zhi: to rule
身shen: body
有you: there is
黃帝Huang Di: Yellow Emperor (1)
之zhi: 's
術shu: method, technique

治zhi: to rule
世shi: life / world / epoch / generation
有you: there is
孔子 Konzi: Confucius
之zhi: 's
經jing: book / classic / canon

[FOR] RULING [THE] BODY THERE ARE [THE] YELLOW EMPEROR'S TECHNIQUES.
[FOR] RULING [THE SOCIAL] LIFE THERE ARE [THE] CONFUCIUS' BOOKS.

For bringing order within the body, we have the arts of the Yellow Emperor('s medical classic); for bringing order to the world, we have the classics of Confucius.

Translated by Margaret J. Pearson (1989). Wang Fu and the Comments of a Recluse. Tempe: Center for Asian Studies.
From: http://www.chinaknowledge.de/Literature/Diverse/qianfulun.html

I believe a classical translation with some interpretations, not excessively literal. In my humble opinion is lost touch of spyce, but it is a fair translation.

The Yellow Emperor is not addressed like a book, which is marked by the brackets. Maybe is intended an oral transmission more than a book. For Confucius instead, his books are explicitly mentioned.

A live, maybe underground, stream atributed to a demigod vs. the official morals of an intellectual.

For what matters look a the tradition, for what is good seen, look at books.

I believe.

Yours,

Charly
______________________
(1) Mitic emperor that appears in the Nei Jing medical canon dialogs as well as in bedchamber arts manuscripts of Mawangdui.

hilary

June 23rd, 2011, 03:00 PM

Personal opinion: she's a proper scholar, the real deal, natural habitat = Needham Institute library, full of enthusiasm and delight in her subject. Also she takes the Yi seriously as an oracle. I met her years ago, before we did the webinar, and my impression was that she didn't even know how much she knew or how fascinating it could be to others. This was general ancient-China knowledge, not Yi-specific stuff.

I sat in on a Yi seminar she offered which introduced Yi as oracle to a bunch of Cambridge graduates and a few undergraduates and had people cast their first reading. (I found myself going round helping with interpretation.) So she must've had some experience with other people's readings. Anyway, I think it's excellent that she's introducing a scholarly book to the world by using it as an oracle. Imagine Rutt doing that... ;)

michaelh

July 10th, 2011, 01:01 AM

I was able to get a copy of ‘The Original I Ching’ and have it signed by Dr Pearson at Book Expo America 2011. Where Margaret was indeed giving demonstration readings see the link above by sparhawk.

I can confirm Dr Pearson’s book is a scholarly work. In short I found the first part of the book heavy going but once I got to the hexagrams I found them quite readable. Therefore I can say that anyone who finds that they ‘connect’ with Margaret’s book will find themselves in safe hands.

I have found that there is no one ‘perfect’ book on the I Ching. To quote my own book ;)

“Please remember that life is not Black or White, it is full of colour and shades of grey including black and white. It is like when you first talk to someone new who has a strong and unfamiliar accent. The more you talk to them, the easier it becomes to understand them. The more you use the I Ching the better your results will be.”

As you build your own collection of I Ching books, you may find that you end up having one particular book you like to use day to day. The rest of the collection gets referred to when you want a different perspective on the question that you are asking.

Hence I recommend that you buy lots of I Ching books especially mine and Hilary’s ;)

Michael Hurn, Author:
The I Ching: The book to turn to for Wisdom and Guidance.

pocossin

July 10th, 2011, 03:18 AM

I was able to get a copy of ‘The Original I Ching’ and have it signed by Dr Pearson at Book Expo America 2011.

Her book still isn't available through Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Ching-Authentic-Translation-Changes/dp/0804841810
The Original I Ching: An Authentic Translation of the Book of Changes

"This title has not yet been released."

michaelh

July 10th, 2011, 03:42 AM

Pocossin,

You are indeed correct the title has NOT been released to the public!

FYI - Book Expo America is a TRADE ONLY book show. I was at the show promoting my book to the book trade. As was Dr Pearson.

The information I have is that it will become available in Septembet 2011.

charly

July 11th, 2011, 06:35 AM

...
FYI - Book Expo America is a TRADE ONLY book show. I was at the show promoting my book to the book trade...
Hi, Michael:

There is any sample available online?

Yours,

Charly

hilary

July 11th, 2011, 09:39 AM

I'm eager to see it, too. I've dropped hints the size of a bus about a review copy, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

michaelh

July 11th, 2011, 12:12 PM

Hi Charly,

Sorry I cannot help, extracts are controlled by the publisher.

Hilary,

I cannot help with Dr Pearson's book, but if you get back to me privately with a postal address I will be happy to send out a copy of my book for review. If so do you have any dice?

Regards, Mike.

pocossin

July 11th, 2011, 01:19 PM

There is any sample available online?

Charly, there's a generous preview of "The I Ching: The Book to Turn to for Wisdom and Guidance" at Google Books.

sparhawk

September 16th, 2011, 07:25 PM

Well, I've had my copy of Pearson's book for a few weeks already. Has anyone else had a chance to read it? Not happy with her translation efforts. Many hexagrams read awkwardly, IMO. Not quite Rutt but scoring about a 7 or 8 in a scale where Rutt sits at 10 (very awkward), and Wilhelm at 1, in a strict literary sense. Further, I'd say that her efforts to find gender "neutrality" has also hindered her translation choices.

Harmen also made a comment on Facebook, a few weeks ago, about her choosing the MWD text as one of her yardsticks, as well as the received text, ignoring other recent archaeological textual sources. Indeed, after reading it, and even if I thought that she was looking for something "almost complete and ancient" at the same time, as a comparison text, I'd say that her translation would have benefited greatly from those additional sources -- if the effort, as hailed by the book cover, was to base her translation not only on the received text but also in recent findings, I mean.

charly

September 16th, 2011, 10:59 PM

Well, I've had my copy of Pearson's book for a few weeks already. Has anyone else had a chance to read it? Not happy with her translation efforts. Many hexagrams read awkwardly, IMO. Not quite Rutt but scoring about a 7 or 8 in a scale where Rutt sits at 10 (very awkward), and Wilhelm at 1, in a strict literary sense. Further, I'd say that her efforts to find gender "neutrality" has also hindered her translation choices.
...
Thanks, Luis:

It's regretable. Might you put some quotes for basing your comments?
Instead of gender neutrality I believe preferable a fair translation, say, an effort to avoid sexist prejudices for not translating concepts that are not in the text but in the reader's mind.

I'm afraid that any book is now affordable for me. Must rely on second hand commentaries.

Abrazo,

Carlos

bradford

September 17th, 2011, 12:14 AM

I've come to distrust authors and publishers who won't use Amazon's "Look Inside" feature, so we can at least see a piece of the translation, table of contents, etc. This from someone who has needed to buy many pigs-in-a-poke, but one who no longer has to.
Anyone care to post a short excerpt? Any grunting hamsters? Any twitching captives?

hilary

September 17th, 2011, 12:31 AM

Amazon isn't sending my copy until the middle of next month; you must get it earlier in the US. I suppose now I'm looking forward to it rather less :( .

Brad - please distrust only publishers (and their interest in selling their authors' work) and not authors...

bradford

September 17th, 2011, 12:40 AM

Brad - please distrust only publishers (and their interest in selling their authors' work) and not authors...

Hokay.

sparhawk

September 17th, 2011, 01:59 AM

Anyone care to post a short excerpt? Any grunting hamsters? Any twitching captives?

Well, for starters, Wilhelm's hamster in 35, has been promoted to "big rat"...

Advancing, The Marquis of Kang was rewarded with many horses and met with the ruler three times in one day.

6-1st: Sometimes advancing, sometimes cut off. With persistence, good fortune. Without sincerity, Yet if lenient, no blame.
6-2nd: Now advancing, now in gloom. With persistence, good fortune. Receiving great blessing and prosperity from your Royal Mother.
6-3rd: The multitude trusts. Remorse disappears.
9-4th: Advancing like a big rat. With persistence, danger.
6-5th: Remorse disappears. The arrow is gained without bloodshed. Going is fortunate. Nothing is unprofitable.
9-Top: Advance your horns only to attack the city. Danger, good fortune without blame. But persisting brings difficulties.

Image: Light emerges above the earth: the image of advancing. You should enlighten yourself, brightening your moral strengths.

In 30.6, Wilhelm/Baynes' "And take captive the followers.", or Legge's "Where his prisoners were not their associates, he does not punish.", Pearson renders "Capturing those not of our kind." (Never mind that she calls 30 "The Net", which even if I know exactly where she gets it from, doesn't have any real appeal and gives uncalled importance to just an aspect of the constituent trigrams.)

The net. Persistence will bring benefits. Success. Raising a cow: good fortune.

9-1st: Treading in the old manner. If you respect them, no blame.
6-2nd: A yellow net: supreme good fortune.
9-3rd: The net [cast by the] setting sun. Not drumming on the earthenware jar singing, then the sigh when the kerchief is worn for mourning. Misfortune.
9-4th: As if an exit; as if an entry. As though burning; as though dying; as though discarded.
6-5th: Going out with tears streaming down. Sad enough to sigh. Good fortune.
9-Top: The ruler begins a military campaign: joy in decapitating enemies. Capturing those not of our kind. No blame.

Image: Brightness twice makes for cohesion: the image of the net. Thus you should link people of enlightenment throughout the four corners of the earth.

bradford

September 17th, 2011, 05:27 AM

I'd have to say pretty uneven, and not much understanding. 35.6 is just awful.
35.5 makes no sense at all like this.

As to the rat, this is a different guy than what the scholars say 15 is about. This one is s two-character term, shi-shu. It may have indeed been a specific type of big rat but big is not in the name as both characters refer to rodents. I made the first an adjective and used squirrelly rodent to convey the misplaced sneakiness or stealth that this line is about.

hilary

September 17th, 2011, 09:37 AM

sparhawk

September 17th, 2011, 05:33 PM

Don't forget the mole cricket...

The net's ingenious, especially for the Image, but the 'net cast by the the setting sun' is a bit of a problem. Hopefully her commentary will cast, er, nets. Come on, Amazon... are they sending the books over by fish or something?

It is a smallish book that also includes a separate section with the Chinese text of the Zhouyi. At the bottom of each commentary she adds page references to Shaughnessy, Lynn and Wilhelm/Baynes.

It should be noted, at least that's my stance, that interpretive commentary is just what it is... My opinion is based on the translation itself.

Her commentary for 30 is (this completes the whole text for H30):

Brightness framing into brightness above it: this is a kind of cohesion full of flexibility; creative and destructive, it is not restrained. Instead, the crackle and flow of flame upon flame: fire feeding upon its likeness. This is not the way we usually view cohesion or a net. Instead, it is a more fluid and more transformative interaction. The images are a net cast by the setting sun; a cow reared with persistence. Sadness and wailing are associated with good fortune. Singing without beating on clay jars is associated with misfortune.
These are strangely contradictory images. If you have no changing lines, meditate on the types of persistence needed to raise a cow, and the benefits a cow brings to a household, as well as the image of flames above flames. If you have a changing line, medicate on the images there.

Shaughnessy, 134-135, 312-313.
Lynn, 323-328.
Wilhelm/Baynes, 118-121.

charly

September 19th, 2011, 04:03 PM

I'm afraid that scholarship, experience with the oracle and a blend of 1/3 modern + 2/3 traditional does not warrant a tasty translation.

What happened with the promise?

A sample from Luis post:

Advancing, The Marquis of Kang was rewarded with many horses and met with the ruler three times in one day.
Pearson

Received chinese text for H.35: (1)

晉 jin4:to look forward / to promote / to advance / to increase / to florish // name of a dynasty /

康 kang1:healthy / peaceful / abundant / level, even and smooth /
侯 hou2:marquis / nobleman / high official //the target in archery /
用 yong4: to use / to apply / to employ // to need /
錫 xi1: to grant / to bestow / to confer // tin (chem) /
馬 ma3: horse / horse chess piece / Surname /
蕃 fan2: luxuriant / flourishing // to reproduce / to proliferate /
庶 shu4: ordinary / numerous / common people / populace / born of a concubine /

晝 zhou4:daytime /
日 ri4:Japan / day / sun / date / day of the month /
三 san1:three / 3 /
接 jie1:to extend / to connect / to receive / to join / to catch / to take one's turn on duty /

Some issues:

晉 jin4: bone and some bronze versions of JIN depict TWO ARROWS GETTING THE SUN. Maybe: there are always more than one mean for getting one's goals, no matters how difficult it would be. Remember LiSe's ARROWS IN A QUIVER.

康侯: was a title given to a prince during a short period and later almost forgoten. Was there any story bout the Marquis of Kang, his horse or his inclinations? Why not a descriptive name like happens in many folkstories? Did maybe HEALTHY MARQUIS means PHALLUS?

錫馬: The GRANTED HORSE, a horse received as a GIFT or as a PRIZE or REWARD. The HORSE in several cultures is a metaphor of MALE, but in chinese it sounds almost like MOM and could also be a FEMALE metaphor. Say it could be a MALE GIFT or a FEMALE GIFT. And it was usual to give women as presents.

蕃庶: To REPRODUCE COMMON[LY], To reproduce like proletarians, to F_CK LIKE RABBITS.

接: To JOIN, character composed by HAND and CONCUBINE/WOMAN, the hand use to mean ACTION, it would connotate THINGS DONE WITH A CONCUBINE. Among another things, sexual intercourse.

Not everibody will agree with me, but I wonder why in the quoted translation there is any mark for dropped concepts not explicit in the text like THE RULER.

Of course, I want not to be prejudicious, must read much more to have an opinion.

Yours,

Charly

____________________________
(1) Maybe some things are in the MaWangDui manuscript, which Luis says was used by Pearson, would to see Shaugnessy or another source.

charly

September 19th, 2011, 04:47 PM

... This one is s two-character term, shi-shu. It may have indeed been a specific type of big rat but big is not in the name as both characters refer to rodents. I made the first an adjective and used squirrelly rodent to convey the misplaced sneakiness or stealth that this line is about.
Hi, Brad:

I've found the 2-syllabe name here:

Unclean Animals
Mammals
Of all the animals that live on land, those chew the cud and has a divided hoof are allowed to eat ( Lev 11:2-3 ), while those have only one of the two characteristics are impure. ( Lev 11:4 ). Of all the animals that walk on all fours, those that walk on their paws are unclean. ( Lev 11:27 ). 　
4 Camel 骆驼 ; 5 Hyrax 沙番 ; 6 Rabbit 兔子 ; 7 Pig 猪 ; 19 Bat 蝙蝠 ; 29 Weasel 鼬鼠 ; 29 Rat 鼫鼠 ( Levi 11 )

These are the animals you may eat :
4 Ox 牛, 4 Sheep 绵羊, 4 Goat 山羊, 5 Deer 鹿, 5 Gazelle 羚羊, 5 Roe Deer 麃子, 5 Wild Goat 野山羊, 5 Ibex麋鹿 , 5 Antelope 黄羊, 5 Mountain Sheep 青羊. ( Deut 14 )

Any other mammals which walk on their paws, with no hoof and/or chew the cud, which maybe unclean are :
Bear, Cat, Dog, Squirrel, Tiger
From: http://omgzi.blogspot.com/2011/03/unclean-animals.html

...鼫鼠 translated as RAT, but maybe meaning DIRTY [UNCLEAN] RAT. Sometimes RATS are repulsive for women for unconscious sexual associations. The advice could be: DON'T ADVANCE LIKE A DIRTY RAT, IT WOULD BE DANGEROUS FOR YOURSELF or also DON'T ADVANCE LIKE A SHY MOUSE, IT WOULD BE DANGEROUS FOR YOURSELF.

Yours,

Charly

charly

September 20th, 2011, 07:36 PM

Chinese Text Project provides a tex where shishu is indeed BIG RAT, although the attached Legge translates MARMOT.

晉: 九四：晉如碩鼠，貞厲。
Jin: The fourth NINE, undivided, shows its subject with the appearance of ADVANCING, but LIKE a MARMOT. However FIRM-AND-CORRECT he may be, the position is one of PERIL. (1)

Legge

碩 shi2: great / large / big /
鼠 shu3: mouse / rat / rodent /

鼫 shi2: squirrel is a compound of RAT + STONE characters
碩 shi2: big is a compound of STONE + HEAD characters, maybe suggesting STUBBORN RAT, a rat with a head hard like stone, an obstinate rat

Of course, RAT can designate all sort of FURTIVE ROBBERS not always rodents and, given that the destiny of rats is not the main concern of the Changes, I believe that this line is speaking of PEOPLE.

For much more detail see HARMEN, whose MOLE CRICKET was also A PEST:

http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/88-The-mole-cricket.html

In the BOOK OF ODES, sometime humans are less than RATS or, we can add than MOLE CRICKETS whose CHIRPING, as happens with any cricket have the only objective of GETTIG FEMALES.

To advance like a BIG RAT is dangerous.
To advance like a BIG BUG is dangerous.

Both fit pretty well with the supposed sense.
But without underestimating the BUG, I believe that BIG RAT or DIRTY RAT has some advantage:

SHU means rats or mice in a little accurate sense, maybe we can say RODENTS.
SHI SHU is applied specifically to RATS, the big, dirty rats leting MICE out of this category.

Humankind, like Art Spiegelman story, is composed of RATTY PEOPLE. Maybe the worse sort of animals.

But meanwhile some behave like DIRTY RATS, AGGRESSIVE, CRUEL AND STERN, which is the sense of 厲li: dangerous, cruel, stern, another behave like GENTLE MICE, soft, tender and warm.

晉 jin depicts TWO ARROWS getting the SUN, two ways for getting our GOALS.

This line speaks of the HARD WAY, the way of the DIRTY RAT, agrressive, sometimes even cruel, only good for those who like it, always dangerous.

The other way is the way of the SWEET MICE which is not spoken in this hexagram although there are issues of another opposition: that of the DRY WAY and the WET WAY which is maybe correlative. But that's another story.

Yours,

Charly
________________________
(1) Uppercase is mine, not Legge's
Ch.

bradford

September 21st, 2011, 05:59 AM

charly

September 21st, 2011, 05:12 PM

Given the context I'd still guess that this particular 碩鼠 was known for its furtiveness more than its filthiness or its size. And for its nocturnal habits, to contrast sharply with the daylight of 35.
Hi, Brad:

Your «squirrelly rodent» made me think on somebody having body of RAT and heart of SQUIRREL (1), which will be of course dangerous.

The dangerous might be a consequence of the lack of braveness, which, although I believe it's a little unjust for the rat, is much accepted (2).

Pearson had the right to translate LARGE RAT, but remain in the shadow the source of danger. Maybe STUBBORN MOUSE might describe better the shy behavior of rodents that in spite of the own fear advance towards their goals with persistence.

Maybe even ancient chinese have not a clear idea of what sort of animal was de SHISHU.

Yours,

Charly

___________________________
(1) Say, coward like Agamemnon, «face of a dog and heart of a deer»
Source: Stories from the Iliad
At: http://www.heritage-history.com/www/heritage-books.php?Dir=books&MenuItem=display&author=langjean&book=iliad&story=fell

(2) «Gao Heng see this... as a simil for military advance. Danger lies in timidity and indecision.»
Source: Rutt page 328.

hilary

September 21st, 2011, 06:16 PM

My copy arrived this morning. I was glad to see it - I'd been looking forward to this for years and I particularly wanted it to be really good because Margaret was immensely kind to me when I met her and I loved talking with her.

:(

OK, I need to look through more slowly and carefully, and take some time to use it with actual readings, which is the only real test. But right now I'm disappointed; I feel as if I've been given the working draft by mistake. Partly because of unfortunate things like 'complex theoretical theories' or 'Times of terror and tumult terrify most of us' - do they not have proof-readers and editors at Tuttle? But mostly because of translations like,
'Reversing the jaws. Gnashing at the warp at the north. Going on a campaign would bring misfortune.' (27.4)
and
'Choosing to be under the bed: usage which makes witches seem indignant. Good fortune without blame.' (57.2)
and
'The wild geese reach the trees. Someone straightens their rafters [so that they no longer sag]. No blame.' (53.4)
and
'(this line has to do with the bronze containers used in sacrificial rituals, replacing them with earthenware pots, and with either a wine ladle or angelica coming from a window. The one clear statement is: ) In the end, no danger [or blame].' (29.4)

:confused:

I do have a lot of respect for someone who doesn't try to explain everything whether she understands it or not. And I do have a lot of sympathy for the 'I have no clue what this line means but there's something in there about a wine ladle' experience, just in general. And of course most of the book is not :confused:-ish like this, I've just pulled out the dodgiest moments.

I want to go get Shaughnessy's Mawangdui translation - it is the only translation still, isn't it? That way I'll at least be able to understand where some of her ideas come from.

Other things I want to check on with someone knowledgeable... 18's lines being almost-quotations from oracle bones. How do I know that? Where did I read it? I thought it was Rutt, but it isn't.

And the older, fragmentary texts discovered since the Mawangdui version - they're closer to the received text than it is, aren't they?

sparhawk

September 21st, 2011, 11:28 PM

I want to go get Shaughnessy's Mawangdui translation - it is the only translation still, isn't it? That way I'll at least be able to understand where some of her ideas come from.

Other things I want to check on with someone knowledgeable... 18's lines being almost-quotations from oracle bones. How do I know that? Where did I read it? I thought it was Rutt, but it isn't.

And the older, fragmentary texts discovered since the Mawangdui version - they're closer to the received text than it is, aren't they?

You can find an imperfect PDF version of Shaughnessy's translation in Scribd (http://www.scribd.com/search?query=37712920). The wrong coding was used to create the PDF and most of the Chinese characters are mangled up. But would do for a while, in the absence of a hard copy.

Regarding 18, the first thing you'll notice is that she's using the Mawangdui name for 18, 箇 (which is 16 in the MWD sequence). She pretty much takes the rest of the MWD text from there to guide her translation. For example, Shaughnessy's 18:

6.1: The stem father's branch;
there is a son crafty;
there is no trouble;
danger;
in the end auspicious.
9.2: The stem mother's branch;
one may not determine.
9.3: the stem father's branch;
there is a little regret;
there is no great trouble.
6.4: The bathed father's branch;
going to see is distressful.
6.5: The stem father's branch;
use a cart.
9.6: Not serving king or lord,
but highly elevating his virtue;
inauspicious.

The Baoshan/Guodian bamboo texts of the Zhouyi hail from the Middle Warring States period, about two hundred years before the Han Dyn MWD text of the Zhouyi. IMHO, they are closer to whatever one wants to call an "original Zhouyi"...

See: Shaughnessy, Edward L. 'A First Reading of the Shanghai Museum Bamboo Strip Manuscript of the Zhouyi.'
Pdf manuscript article dated September 8, 2004.
(I can send you a copy of the PDF, if you wish)

Also, check Harmen's blog entries, here (http://www.i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/107-Review-The-Bamboo-Zhouyi-from-the-State-Chu-Researches.html), here (http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/48-Shanghai-Museum-Chujian-Zhouyi.html) and here (http://www.i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/83-Better-transcription-of-Chujian-Zhouyi.html).

charly

September 22nd, 2011, 12:11 AM

...
'The wild geese reach the trees. Someone straightens their rafters [so that they no longer sag]. No blame.' (53.4)
...
I want to go get Shaughnessy's Mawangdui translation - it is the only translation still, isn't it? That way I'll at least be able to understand where some of her ideas come from.
...
Hi, Hilary:

I also had the best expectatives, but now, I'm not sure. As far as I know, that of Shaughnessy is not a translation of the MWD manuscript, given that based in his own scholarshisp he decides which sense fits better.

I wonder if Pearson gives a critical edition,say anoted and basing her choises on some explicit issues.

Yours,

Charly

hilary

September 22nd, 2011, 12:24 AM

Thanks for all the links (and yes, please to the pdf).

The Baoshan/Guodian bamboo texts of the Zhouyi hail from the Middle Warring States period, about two hundred years before the Han Dyn MWD text of the Zhouyi. IMHO, they are closer to whatever one wants to call an "original Zhouyi"...
...and are they also closer to the 'received text', or did I dream that?

With 18, she seems to have opted for the MWD version because the received text made no sense to her - she thought it would be about trying to get insects out of rotten food, which is nonsense. But, I said to myself, everyone knows it's about a curse, and identifying the ancestor bringing the king bad luck, and the line texts are almost word-for-word echoes of oracle bone divinations about this. That's in Rutt, surely. Except it isn't in Rutt, and now I can't think where I read it.

sparhawk

September 22nd, 2011, 01:03 AM

...and are they also closer to the 'received text', or did I dream that?

Yes, in a sense it is. The file is in your Gmail address. Check pages 8-9 for some clues.

With 18, she seems to have opted for the MWD version because the received text made no sense to her - she thought it would be about trying to get insects out of rotten food, which is nonsense. But, I said to myself, everyone knows it's about a curse, and identifying the ancestor bringing the king bad luck, and the line texts are almost word-for-word echoes of oracle bone divinations about this. That's in Rutt, surely. Except it isn't in Rutt, and now I can't think where I read it.

I think you are referring to this other article where 蠱 is discussed:

THE BLACK MAGIC IN CHINA KNOWN AS KU*
H. Y. FENG and J. K. SHRYOCK UNIVEIRSITYOF PENNSYLVANIA

bradford

September 22nd, 2011, 06:16 AM

I've railed in the past about the logical fallacy of generalizing from particulars - taking a single instance of a thing to make big assumptions.
If you look around the Yixue world you'll see a bazillion different versions and interpretations of the Yi, well more than half of them done by fruitcakes. Now suppose that three thousand years from now the archaeologists are poring through the ruins of our civilization and they find some whacked out new age version first (either extreme- from Diane Stein to Richard Rutt). Unless they are patient enough for a whole lot more evidence to come in, they are going to build their base on a bad foundation.
It's just idiotic to take a thing that only occurs once to our knowledge, like the Mawangdui, and contradicts almost everything else we have in hand, and claim that this is the definitive thing. The manuscript might well be nothing more than someone who tried to reinvent the Yi, and insisted on getting buried with his project.

hilary

September 22nd, 2011, 10:05 AM

Thanks for the file!

Worked it out - it's one of the shorter chapters in The Mandate of Heaven, called 'the curse of the ancestors'. He'd no doubt read the article on Ku you mention, and Keightley, and other things.

Wikipedia has a whole thoroughly gruesome article on gu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu_%28poison%29 - though SJM speculates that the black magic practices could even have been inspired by the character.

I don't think Margaret's treating the MWD as definitive - more that she's using it to fill in when she feels it adds something useful, or when the received text doesn't make much sense to her. I think I remember her saying, for instance, that fu as 'prisoner' seemed less likely since by MWD times it could be written as fu as in 'returning'. That seems reasonable to me (in a way that geese with rafters don't).

hilary

September 22nd, 2011, 02:00 PM

sparhawk

September 22nd, 2011, 03:57 PM

I've just been looking at what Margaret says about 57 as part of my weekly reading. It's very helpful and is opening up a bunch of possibilities I hadn't considered. So... geese and gnashing notwithstanding, I'm very grateful for the book.

Certainly. Obviously, her efforts and dedication and some of her ideas have a lot of merit, but, like I've said, as translations go, it reads awkwardly for my taste. I mean, I know that blaming "awkwardness" to any translation of the Yijing is oxymoronic, but I think that there are ways to palliate the narrative without betraying the accuracy of the content. My opinion is mainly about how it reads, as I expressed here (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=144381&postcount=16).

BTW, although this appears to be, and could certainly be another subject altogether, as I've also said above, I think her focus on gender neutrality, bordering on overt feminism, on a text that hails back a few thousand years, where the earliest extant strata was written in a time where patriarchy was already deeply seated in the culture, is misguided. I mean, I recognize and respect the drive behind it, indeed. The problem is that she ended up throwing a red sweater with the whites in the washing machine of her translation: everything ended up pretty much pink. She can go as far back as the Xia Dyn, or even farther back to cultures like Liangzhu or Longshan, to find more female friendly environments, but that has hardly anything to do with the text of the Zhouyi. Even the Shang OBI's general narrative do not support her position, IMHO. That is not to say that women were culturally unimportant and that there were no important female icons and heroes throughout China's vast history, on the contrary. But being revisionist on the back of gender biases falls way short of being accurate.

Chuckles, this kind of reminds me of the current arguments about Originalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Originalism) and the U.S. Constitution. People can't even agree on what the intention of the Founding Fathers was on something written in 1787 (in plain English...). :D

bradford

September 22nd, 2011, 04:30 PM

An aside, on the gender issue.
In most translations, most of the occurrences of "he" and "his" are just artifacts that translators assume need to be inserted to provide subjects for the sentence, with no other basis than that. My word-by-word rendering shows this to be unnecessary.
The second largest number are from rendering gender-neutral terms like ren and qi, person, one's and their, in gendered terms, which is again often unnecessary, with a few notable exceptions like "Adorning his beard."
Only a fraction start out with gendered terms in the Chinese, and use what I think are legitimate observations of the culture. it's easy to forget that these are used as metaphors, but i think these are how they need to be understood. Therefore, when someone comes in with an agenda to clean up the culture and rid it of sexism they run the risk of bending and twisting the metaphors out of their intended shape and only assisting their readers in a misreading of the text.

sparhawk

September 22nd, 2011, 04:48 PM

it's easy to forget that these are used as metaphors, but i think these are how they need to be understood. Therefore, when someone comes in with an agenda to clean up the culture and rid it of sexism they run the risk of bending and twisting the metaphors out of their intended shape and only assisting their readers in a misreading of the text.

The sentiment of my opinion, exactly. It doesn't help the "clarifying" cause, even though the effort is to digest the mash for a Western readership, that perceived biases "need" to be cleaned up by introducing new ones.

Funny, speaking of gender neutrality, the only gender specific pronouns in English, that I can think of, are 'he' and 'she'. In Spanish, all the plural pronouns, besides the third person singular, are gender specific. We have no problems whatsoever, nor are more confused because of it, to understand any metaphors...

charly

September 22nd, 2011, 05:35 PM

... The manuscript might well be nothing more than someone who tried to reinvent the Yi, and insisted on getting buried with his project.
Hi, Brad:

The MWD manuscript was a private copy buried with his owner, differences with the received text can depict the sort of conflicts that arose reading the "original" or a given version with some ideological purpose.

In spite of all the differences, MWD looks like an edition of an earlier text more close to the received text than to the manuscript.

It seems that the received took much earlier texts than the MWD as a result of a living tradition with the commitment of innumerable scribes along the times, while the manuscript represents a mere emmended copy of one version for a single user.

Yours,

Charly

pocossin

September 22nd, 2011, 11:23 PM

'The wild geese reach the trees. Someone straightens their rafters [so that they no longer sag]. No blame.' (53.4)

Hey, the 'rafters' idea fits. The goose is the upper trigram, the house is the lower. Goose on house top. Probably an omen of good fortune like storks in Europe.

Whincup:
The wild goose advances into the trees.
If it finds a rafter on which to perch,
it will escape harm.

bradford

September 23rd, 2011, 12:00 AM

The rafters idea only makes sense if you have no freaking clue what the line is about.
It does, however, refer to a branch of a particular shape, suitable for working into a rafter or beam. Have you not seen our collection of photographs of geese who have managed to land on horizontal branches? It's quite comical, what with the floppy talons and all.

pocossin

September 23rd, 2011, 01:02 AM

sooo

September 24th, 2011, 05:50 PM

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_B-zug7BAyRE/Sj_Qm66uEGI/AAAAAAAATmU/2fYFOwDIMkw/s1600/Canada%2BGeese%2B18.06.09.jpg

Unnatural, but hey, whatever works.

charly

September 27th, 2011, 03:49 AM

Another sample, H.11 Great Image, quoted in Adventures of RantWoman: (1)

Sky and earth interact: the image of peace. Thus the queen guides the natural forces of both sky and earth, assisting them into harmony by [gathering] the people to her right and left.
Pearson

For comparison the received text and Legge, quoted in Yellowbridge: (2)

象曰‧
天地交泰‧
后以裁成天地之道‧
輔相天地之宜‧以左右民‧

(The trigrams for) heaven and earth in communication together form Tài. The (sage) sovereign, in harmony with this, fashions and completes (his regulations) after the courses of heaven and earth, and assists the application of the adaptations furnished by them,--in order to benefit the people.

Legge

Pearson´s translation looks a little bizarre even compared with that of Legge.

It is not a literal translation, the word "gathering" between brackets might make suppose that there is no other interpolation in the text, which is not the case.

PEACE is not a literal translation of 泰 TAI, that means «grand / great / greatness» but QUEEN is a literal translation of the traditional character 后 HOU, which is much more frequently applied to women than to men. (2)

Some thing that might pass for being literal are in fact a little decaffeinated, like «天地交泰‧» translated as «Sky and earth interact: the image of peace». It can be seen as correct but the powerful image of SACRED MARRIAGE BETWEEN SKY AND EARTH results hidden. (3)

JIAO 交 means INTERCOURSE. Of course, SEXUAL intercourse.

(To be continued)

Yours,

Charly

_____________________________
(1) From: http://rantwoman.blogspot.com/2011/09/seattle-area-readings-authentic.html

(2) Do not mistake¨后 in simplified modern scrip means «behind». the same glyph in traditional script means «queen». WU ZETIAN, the only woman in China that used the title of emperor DI 帝 was know by later history as Tian Hou 天后, Celestial Queen.

(3) A true literal translation, although maybe not the best: SKY [AND] EARTH F_CK: GRAND. Something like the sacred marriage between SUN and MOON in JUNG´s theory.

The following is an original image from the Rosarium Philosophorum depicting Sol and Luna engaging in their sacred marriage.

http://www.angelfire.com/ct3/ascension/ros5.jpg

From: The Alchemical Hermaphrodite / Divine Child Archetype, by Jade Marcus Kenny
At: http://www.angelfire.com/ct3/ascension/alchemy.html

Ch.

charly

September 28th, 2011, 11:09 PM

Among other things the quoted passage says:

RantWoman especially recommends this book because it is the first translation of the I Ching by a woman.
Source: http://rantwoman.blogspot.com/2011/09/seattle-area-readings-authentic.html

That people know nothing about LiSe Heyboer, Hilary Barrett or Michael Nylan. I wonder if another woman has yet translated the I Ching, but, sure, Pearson was not the first.

Charly

P.D.
I don't know if Nylan translated the whole Changes or only parts of it.
Ch.

trojan

September 29th, 2011, 12:03 AM

Another sample, H.11 Great Image, quoted in Adventures of RantWoman: (1)

For comparison the received text and Legge, quoted in Yellowbridge: (2)

Pearson´s translation looks a little bizarre even compared with that of Legge.

It is not a literal translation, the word "gathering" between brackets might make suppose that there is no other interpolation in the text, which is not the case.

PEACE is not a literal translation of 泰 TAI, that means «grand / great / greatness» but QUEEN is a literal translation of the traditional character 后 HOU, which is much more frequently applied to women than to men. (2)

Some thing that might pass for being literal are in fact a little decaffeinated, like «天地交泰‧» translated as «Sky and earth interact: the image of peace». It can be seen as correct but the powerful image of SACRED MARRIAGE BETWEEN SKY AND EARTH results hidden. (3)

_____________________________
(1) From: http://rantwoman.blogspot.com/2011/09/seattle-area-readings-authentic.html

Ch.

"decaffeinated" :confused: how are you using the word. (or is this from rant woman who hasn't yet discovered Lise, Hilary and others)

what does it mean here 'decaffeinated" as what is means is the caffeine has been removed...so what does that have to do with hexagram 11 ?

Is decaffeinated now a word used to mean power is removed or something ? Can anyone enlighten me ?

hilary

September 29th, 2011, 12:45 PM

That people know nothing about LiSe Heyboer, Hilary Barrett or Michael Nylan. I wonder if another woman has yet translated the I Ching, but, sure, Pearson was not the first.

Charly
Well, LiSe is not published (evidence we live in an imperfect world) and I'm not a real translator. So maybe this is strictly true. I don't know about Michael Nylan, though. Has she translated the whole book?

charly

September 29th, 2011, 05:21 PM

... Is decaffeinated now a word used to mean power is removed or something ? Can anyone enlighten me ?
Hi, Trojan:

Schizoid people have tendency to use private neologisms, sometimes unintelligible.
Nobody worries for that, there are worse things.

Yours,

Charly

charly

September 29th, 2011, 06:02 PM

Well, LiSe is not published (evidence we live in an imperfect world) and I'm not a real translator. So maybe this is strictly true. I don't know about Michael Nylan, though. Has she translated the whole book?
Hi, Hilary:

LiSe have indeed published her translation. Even since it was «The Book of the Moon» her page had the (c) at the foot. Only that she has not yet publised as a physical book. But she did a translation before.

Why not a real translator? You have made a real translation although not of all the wings. But your translation, as far as I know it (only quoted samples), is a very good one.

Not only that LiSe says so. What I've read is, although traditional, very accurate, vital, kind, dlightful and even with fruity flavor. It's a real translation and you have published it in a hard book.

Michael Nylan has been quoted here in the forum, she has translated The Canon of Supreme Mystery, maybe she has made only partial translations of the Changes.

In the notes of her (2001) Five Confucian Classics she recognizes Margaret Pearson so:

I give my own reading of the Hexagram Statements and Line Texts, but the inspiration for this reinterpretation of Hexagram 44 came from Margaret Pearson (Skidmore College), who gave a text reading on this hexagram at the Needham Research Institute, Cambridge University (1 May 1998), where she presented the idea that the hexagram concerns a queen. Pearson intends to write up her own analysis of the hexagram in a forthcoming article, which may well differ from mine. For now, my reading rests on the following: that bao means either "seeds ready to burst (in Ode 245/5) or "melons," which like "gourds" are associated with the womb, as attested in Norman Girardot (1983), pp. 169-256; that fish symbolize fertility, as in Wen Yiduo (1941)...
M. Nylan
Source: http://yalepress.yale.edu/YupBooks/book.asp?isbn=0300081855
There get chapter 5 notes in pdf document (with same OCR erros).

I don't know if Pearson's is a good translation, but's not the first by a woman. Facts are facts.

Yours,

Charly

trojan

September 29th, 2011, 06:16 PM

Hi, Trojan:

Schizoid people have tendency to use private neologisms, sometimes unintelligible.
Nobody worries for that, there are worse things.

Yours,

Charly

:confused: Who is schizoid ? Do you mean rant woman is Schizoid ?

You thought it important enough to quote it so I thought you might know what it meant ...but you don't ? okay well I'll just take it as a meaningless quote then ...

charly

September 29th, 2011, 06:28 PM

:confused: Who is schizoid ? Do you mean rant woman is Schizoid ?
You thought it important enough to quote it so I thought you might know what it meant ...but you don't ? okay well I'll just take it as a meaningless quote then
why not just say "I don't know what it means" rather than imply its really not important enough to ask about
Oh! Trojan:

Don't get upset.
Don't you understand?

More clear: based on a little sample I risk an opinion, nothing deffinitive:
Pearson's although sometimes objectionable, is a scholarly translation but would lack of taste.

Yours,

Charly

trojan

September 29th, 2011, 06:34 PM

charly

September 29th, 2011, 11:28 PM

I don't understand....but thankyou for trying to explain
its probably not at all important....I just wanted to understand the post, but its not central to the discussion, so i can live with not knowing
Hi, Trojan:

I will post more samples.
Maybe no less unclear, but that's not my intention.

Yours,

Charly

hilary

October 1st, 2011, 02:09 PM

trojan

October 1st, 2011, 04:03 PM

charly

October 2nd, 2011, 04:46 PM

Hi Charly,

By 'translator' I meant 'someone who starts from the ancient Chinese, which they read fluently' (not me), and by 'published' I meant 'in a book printed by a publisher' (not LiSe).

And oddly enough, I understood what you meant by 'decaffeinated' at once. What does this say about my own sanity?

(No-one need answer that.)

Hi, Hilary:

Much people read and write chinese and english fluently and are not translators in the sense that they don´t produce any translation.

Fray Luis de León made a translation of the Song of Songs from hebrew to spanish but kept it private. Not publishhing it didn´t save him from going in jail for it.

Coming back to the Changes, Christ Lofting or Brad Hatcher did work hard and published their works even before they put it under the form of a book.

About the 'decaffeinated' it was not lucky to say it of Pearson´s translation. I need to read more before to say more. The same happens with your translation, which I found nice, tasty and pretty literal. I´ve not yet an idea about its sanity.

If you post something that you have liked of Parson´s I will post something that I´ve liked of your translation.

All the best,

Charly

P.D.:
I continue thinking that LiSe was the first. Nobody´s perfect.
Ch.

charly

October 2nd, 2011, 04:58 PM

... it wasn't Charly who wrote 'decaffeinated' anyway i think it was rant woman if Charly had used the word I think he'd know what it meant apart from tea and coffee that had the caffeine removed.
Hi, Trojan:

I did write "decaffeinated", maybe being a litle unjust. I don´t remember that RantWoman used it although, of course, all the words that I use are always elsewhere, I did´t invented any.

Yours,

Charly

hilary

October 2nd, 2011, 06:53 PM

Hi, Hilary:

Much people read and write chinese and english fluently and are not translators in the sense that they don´t produce any translation.

Fray Luis de León made a translation of the Song of Songs from hebrew to spanish but kept it private. Not publishhing it didn´t save him from going in jail for it.

Coming back to the Changes, Christ Lofting or Brad Hatcher did work hard and published their works even before they put it under the form of a book.

About the 'decaffeinated' it was not lucky to say it of Pearson´s translation. I need to read more before to say more. The same happens with your translation, which I found nice, tasty and pretty literal. I´ve not yet an idea about its sanity.

If you post something that you have liked of Parson´s I will post something that I´ve liked of your translation.

All the best,

Charly

P.D.:
I continue thinking that LiSe was the first. Nobody´s perfect.
Ch.

I suppose I am old-fashioned in thinking of 'publication' as something that involves paper and printing presses ;)

Something I liked from Margaret's book, when I had 57 for the week:
Wind follows wind: this is the image of true compliance. You should reiterate what you are called to do, then do it. Though air is invisible and winds are intermittent, few forces are stronger over time. A continuing wind can bend giant trees, erode earth and stone, shape landscapes and vegetation. To accomplish your greatest task, the work you are truly called to do, you must do many small things, travel, seek and heed advice, again and again. As you do this, do not look for great leaps forward, but think of one wind following another; that is, pushing softly again and again. This can be hard to do. When progress seems to be leading into danger or is blocked by more pressing demands, you may feel like hiding under your bed, and doing nothing but the bare essentials. But such slavish compliance with the more obvious powers of your world often leads in the end to regrets and personal promise unfulfilled. This is not what you are called to do. While remaining prudent, we need to remember the immense power of persistent winds. Listen to the still small voice within you, especially when a careful process of divination, consultation and planning has led to a recognition of something you are called to do. Find another small step toward that goal and do it, and keep repeating this process. If you define your goal carefully, and persist in it, you will inevitably make progress towards it....and so on. There are no intellectual fireworks here, no plunging into a sea of shiny multidimensional imagery Karcher-style, no densely-packed ideas like Brad's work. It just plods along quietly, presenting a very simple idea, allowing plenty of time for me to take it in. Looking at her work as commentary on a hexagram is often disappointing; reading it as part of a divination is different. It seems to synchronise nicely with the slowness of my thought processes as the penny gradually drops :) .

charly

October 3rd, 2011, 12:39 AM

Hi, Hilary:

Good indeed.

I had the feeling that must be something good in the book of a teacher that advices students using the Changes.

Now, my turn: something that I liked in your translation, if you allow me to say so:

H.3:
Chinese received text, usual meanigs, your TRANSLATION (1)

屯 tun2: village / hamlet // to station (soldiers) / to store up // SPROUTING
元 yuan2: origin / primary / first // great / supreme //[FROM THE] SOURCE
亨 heng1: success /prosperous // feast / celebration // [CREATING] SUCCESS
利 li4: profitable / advantage / benefit // BEARS FRUIT
貞 zhen1: chaste / perseverance // divination / omen // CONSTANCY

勿 wu4: not / do not // DON´T
用 yong4: to use / to apply / to employ / with // USE [THIS]
有 you3: to have / there is / there are // TO HAVE
攸 you1: distant / far // [A] DIRECTION
往 wang3: to go in a direction / towards // TO GO

利li4: profitable / advantage / benefit // FRUITFUL
建jian4: to establish / to found / to set up / to build // TO ESTABLSH
侯hou2: a grade in nobility (marquis) / archery target // FEUDAL LORDS

屯 tun2 as SPROUTING goes with ShuoWen etymology that speaks of sprouts piercing the earth.

Almost literal, without forcing the sintax and with fine taste in the election of words like sprouting, source or fruitful. Love it.

Yours,

Charly
_______________________
(1) taken from Russell´s page.
Ch.

hilary

January 3rd, 2012, 06:42 PM

Here is a video with Margaret talking about her book and using it:

http://youtu.be/ueoPQjYoZ5Q

I do like the way she starts out by saying that this is 'originally a book of divination' and centres her video on a reading and describes how the book befriends people. (And I do wish she would just concentrate on her own work rather than silly comparisons... ah well...)

pocossin

January 6th, 2012, 02:48 AM

bradford

January 6th, 2012, 03:14 AM

In this brief clip Professor Pearson does two interesting things. She defines heads as 2 and tails as 3, although Bradford uses heads as 2 also. "Even small offering like piglets and fish bring good fortune" is how she renders 61.0. That is an interesting idea and may have been the original intention of the cryptic text.

Hi-
I did a lengthy study of this problem, with the more than 100 books that used one or the other option. It was still a "coin toss" on which was which. I even isolated the most respectable of the books and it was a "toss-up" there too. There is similarly no agreement for Chinese coins. I had to conclude that all we could do is pick one and stick with it. We can tell ourselves stories to justify our choice, but that's all they are.
Brad
PS- All of the words "Even small offerings like ... bring ... ." are courtesy of this "translator" - the ideas are not in the original Chinese.

charly

January 6th, 2012, 05:16 AM

In this brief clip Professor Pearson does two interesting things. She defines heads as 2 and tails as 3, although Bradford uses heads as 2 also. "Even small offering like piglets and fish bring good fortune" is how she renders 61.0. That is an interesting idea and may have been the original intention of the cryptic text.
Hi, Tom:

About the original intention is maybe too late for carrying out a survey.

For being fair with the reader some words should have been enclosed between parentheses or something like it.

Original received text:

豚魚吉‧
tun yu yi
PIGLETS FISH GOOD FORTUNE

Pearson´s translation with interpolated words between parenteses:

(Even small offering like) piglets (and) fish (bring) good fortune.

Even more if the offering is small depends on how many piglets or fishes are offered.
A piglet is little in comparison with a bull, but can be a great offering if it is all what one has.

I remember that Blofeld was criticized for his translation of PIGLET FISH as DOLPHIN, which had much sense, river dolphins were endemic in China since the prehistory and they were always considered LUCKY. And it was a true personal translation free of dropped words.

All the best,

Charly

P.D. 吉 yi was a typo, 吉 ji, as Brad points, is the right pinyin.
Ch.

charly

January 6th, 2012, 05:26 AM

... All of the words "Even small offerings like ... bring ... ." are courtesy of this "translator" - the ideas are not in the original Chinese.
Hi, Brad:

Of course, the words you say are not in the received text.

Maybe in another texts?

Yours,

Charly

bradford

January 6th, 2012, 06:34 AM

Maybe in another texts?

The Mawangdui also has tun yu ji
(Why did you write yi? Different dialect?)

BTW, I don't know if it applies here, but elsewhere in the Yi, fishes are a euphemism for young women. And elsewhere in the old Chinese culture, piglets sometimes referred to young men or sons. It's conceivable that this was an expression for "sons and daughters."

arabella

January 6th, 2012, 02:58 PM

Hi-
I did a lengthy study of this problem, with the more than 100 books that used one or the other option. It was still a "coin toss" on which was which. I even isolated the most respectable of the books and it was a "toss-up" there too. There is similarly no agreement for Chinese coins. I had to conclude that all we could do is pick one and stick with it. We can tell ourselves stories to justify our choice, but that's all they are.
Brad
PS- All of the words "Even small offerings like ... bring ... ." are courtesy of this "translator" - the ideas are not in the original Chinese.

This is another reason to be sure that the conversation with the Yi is entirely individual; a personal wavelength that becomes more and more established over time. Lately I've felt this so strongly and the way I use the Yi Ching is changing in accordance with that -- so I hope I've got it right. It not only feels right, it gives me answers that stand up.:hug:

charly

January 6th, 2012, 05:31 PM

The Mawangdui also has tun yu ji
(Why did you write yi? Different dialect?)

BTW, I don't know if it applies here, but elsewhere in the Yi, fishes are a euphemism for young women. And elsewhere in the old Chinese culture, piglets sometimes referred to young men or sons. It's conceivable that this was an expression for "sons and daughters."
Hi, Brad:

Not a different dialect, maybe chinglish, I don't speak chinese.

Pigs and fishes are symbols of fertility.

Another euphemism might be PIGLET = LITTLE PIG → PHALLUS

The well known chinese motif of TWO FISHES can be seen as a symbol of INTERCOURSE or even a depiction of a VULVA.

But METAPHORS can be explained, never replaced in translation by the supposed sense, which always is only one among the infinite possible associations.

Yours,

Charly

hilary

January 6th, 2012, 08:02 PM

...PS- All of the words "Even small offerings like ... bring ... ." are courtesy of this "translator" - the ideas are not in the original Chinese.

...For being fair with the reader some words should have been enclosed between parentheses or something like it.

Original received text:

豚魚吉‧
tun yu yi
PIGLETS FISH GOOD FORTUNE

Pearson´s translation with interpolated words between parenteses:

(Even small offering like) piglets (and) fish (bring) good fortune.

That's exactly what she's done in her book - put interpolated words in parentheses. So for 61 her full translation of the oracle text is:
With sincerity at your core. [Even small offerings of] piglets and fish bring good fortune. Crossing the great river will work out. Persistence is effective.
I believe - can't remember where I read this, of course - that permitted offerings were defined for different social levels. Commoners could offer pigs and fish, but didn't qualify to offer sheep or oxen. So 'even small offerings bring good fortune (when offered with inner fu)' is not a bad idea.

I'm just finishing up a review of this book - I'll post it on the blog soon.

charly

January 6th, 2012, 09:00 PM

That's exactly what she's done in her book - put interpolated words in parentheses. So for 61 her full translation of the oracle text is:

Hi, Hilary:

It's a good practice although there are authors, even reputable like Legge, that let some words escape from the corresponding parentheses. I don't know if Pearson belongs to them. I only know the samples here quoted.

I believe - can't remember where I read this, of course - that permitted offerings were defined for different social levels. Commoners could offer pigs and fish, but didn't qualify to offer sheep or oxen. So 'even small offerings bring good fortune (when offered with inner fu)' is not a bad idea.

Not a bad idea indeed. Maybe your source was Herbert Giles:

Sacrifices ... can be easily condensed into a small compass. First of all, there were the great sacrifices to God and to Earth, at the winter and summer solstices respectively, which were reserved for the Son of Heaven alone...

... the Emperor sacrificed also to the four quarters, and to the mountains and rivers of the empire; while the feudal nobles sacrificed each to his own quarter, and to the mountains and rivers of his own domain.

... When sacrificing to the spirits of the land and of grain, the Son of Heaven used a bull, a ram, and a boar; the feudal nobles only a ram and a boar; and the common people, scallions and eggs in spring, wheat and fish in summer, millet and a sucking-pig in autumn, and unhulled rice and a goose in winter

Herbert Giles: RELIGIONS OF ANCIENT CHINA
Freely available at Project Gutenberg:
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/2/3/3/2330/2330.txt

The animals that common people was allowed to sacrify were fishes, suckling piglets and geese. Of course, the lost third animal has also a lucky meaning related with marriage. Maybe the GANDER was a metaphor for something else...

I'm just finishing up a review of this book - I'll post it on the blog soon.

Much appreciated. Add quotes, please. In my country, books are not affordable for all.

Yours,

Charly