Hexagram 54, line 1 [Archive] - I Ching Community

dharma

April 19th, 2004, 04:40 AM

Kevin,
of course you were being assertive - i had no doubt about that http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif however, you also seemed, imo, overly protective towards this particular querent, and in doing so attempted to control what was in-coming from Chris. why?? as far as i could see, doing so was an ungenerous move on your part that sparked the argument and really could have been avoided, especially in light of the fact that you knew very well who you were dealing with.

even if you had a strong intuition of how much or how little information the querent was capable of grasping, i don't believe it was your place to "tell" Chris how he should comport himself. there was just something very disrespectful about it. simply, you only needed to point out that your method and Chris' were markedly different and allow the querent to choose for herself what made more sense to her (without being coached towards that end, of course) http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

anyway, it isn't my intent to take sides; i think that everyone here has a tremendous amount to offer in their own unique way. and i'd like to see everyone feel free to continue doing so without having to watch out for, and side-step around, other people's censorship issues. i'm of the belief that we can NOT only be more effective without the snide, back-biting side of our human-nature rearing its (ugly) face, but that it is in our control to do so as well http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Peace Everyone...

chrislofting

April 19th, 2004, 06:07 AM

Hilary,

in going back over the emails for this thread I came across this one:

>
> By Hilary (Hilary) on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 01:35 pm:
>
> Chris, I have given a wholly accurate account of the facts.
> I have never breached client confidentiality, and never
> will, and I am profoundly angry that you persist in trying
> to blacken my name in this way.
>

firstly, you replied re the hex 11 event re (1) I had it wrong (In general I dont think so) and (2) I was ejected for other reasons.

I suggested you go back and check the original material since it is still on the midaughter list archives. You obviously dont want to do that. You would rather 'hold your ground' and puff-up with the above attempt to distract, to draw attention away etc etc as if I was attempting to attack you? Why the need to do that? whats the problem with checking the facts? I could be wrong, you could be wrong etc etc and I asked in a simple, non-aggressive manner to 'check the archives' in that I assume you are still a member - simple stuff dudette. Your anger thus now makes me suspicious because you are not 'dumb' which means there is something else driving you here, you attempt to focus back on me, and so AWAY from you, rather than 'solve the problem'!

NOWHERE in my prose has there been the suggestion that you explicitly revealed the name, date of birth, family history, likes and dislikes, allergies and phobias, etc etc of your client. BUT you have had a reputation, in your 'early' years for charging onto lists seeking information that we assume you are going to charge for. IOW you set up a business without knowing your product and 'winged it' from there - and over the years you have developed.

Did you think you could do that without being noticed!? LOL!

My use of the story was to emphasise the need to 'nipe things in the bud' at times and to be 'strong' in the act; make the nipping remembered. Your a good kid, you exploit reasonably well but not good enough to not be noticed ;-)

Now, professionally, in these 'requests for info', if you got a reply then either (a) when you receive the info off a list or in private etc., you give the info for free to your client as you did not know your stuff or (b) you charge the client but share the payment with the person or persons who gave you the information (or at least offer). If not then you come across as exploitive of all who deal with you.... but then I dont think you are *that* 'yang' ;-)

(my core attitude is more protective than exploitive, iow without context pushing I focus on protection through problem solving (and so when people like Kevin, so-called professional psychotherapists, abuse the IC by first being slack in interpretations etc and then being 'passive aggressive' when additional information is supplied to 'balance' out the original distortion, I will move into 'protect' mode - and not just of me, but of the whole IC universe).

To exploit requires me to be in the 'right' context. As such I am not an opportunist (and I use the term in its positive/neutral form in that exploit/protect are built-in to the species. I dont get up to go to sales etc; to be the 'early bird' ;-)) - but that said I can motivate others to be opportunist since it is part of our nature but under-employed in me.

Sooo, may I suggest you chill. ;-)

Chris.

gene

April 19th, 2004, 06:23 AM

Let's take it to private email. I for one don't care who did what or said what, or what somebody got kicked out of the local mall for, we just need to be able to discuss this stuff, if not civilly, at least on the topic.

Gene

chrislofting

April 19th, 2004, 07:48 AM

we ARE on topic - 54 : immaturity ;-)

heylise

April 19th, 2004, 11:14 AM

Some anonymous down below had the idea, that the Yi, when consulted, would put one side or view in the right.
I did not think he would. Rather something like "if you see evil people, then beware of wrong yourself", the German rendering of 38.1

So I decided to cast. Only about the quarreling, Hilary defending herself (quite calmly) against lies is a different matter.
I got 14, 1 and 4, changing to 18. Line 1: "avoid associating .. , line 4: not sounding one's drum (and according to Wilhelm line 1 "no relationship to what is harmful" and line 4 "he makes a difference between himself and his neighbor").

Both lines talk about staying clean. 14.4 is not obvious at first sight, but not sounding one's drum gives an indication of staying out, and the line it changes to, 26.4, is about the young bull's horns, which should stay impeccable, because only then he will be good enough for the great sacrifice. I have no idea where the translation of the difference and the neighbor comes from, but in this case it makes sense.

I don't think it says anything about one view being harmful or so. I did not ask about good or bad, about sides, so the answer goes for all parties. It only says "if you think something is not good for you, then stay out of it".

LiSe

hilary

April 19th, 2004, 02:11 PM

Chris - here is the message that introduced the hexagram 11 reading:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

Message 1566 of 5158

From: "Hilary Barrett" <hj-barrett@l...>
Date: Thu Apr 5, 2001 11:51 am
Subject: Re: [Midaughter] a query: how to compare hexagrams

Absolutely.
But I wonder if anyone can help me with this...
Someone wrote to the Yahoo I Ching club having asked for a 'hexagram for the day' and received 11, unchanging. The day was indeed peaceful and harmonious, until his mother had a serious heart attack in the afternoon. Assuming he didn't draw the hexagram upside down by mistake, does anyone have any idea what was going on??

Best wishes,
Hilary<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyone who wants to can presumably sign up as a member at Midaughter and view this message in the archives. Unfortunately the Yahoo club archives that the reading originally came from are no more. I wish you'd made this accusation at the time, rather than waiting to spring it on me now.

I don't just promise (on this site) not to share names of clients, I also promise not to share any details of their readings, even anonymously, without their express permission. If I'd done what you claimed I'd done here, I would have been lying to all my clients, all these years.

Likewise, I never asked for help on a list with a client's reading. People do tend to come to me with questions - especially on feng shui - that I can't answer. In which case I either find the answer for them, tell them where it came from, and pass on their thanks (if any ;) ), or send them to the right person or list to ask.

But this part of it is, as Gene is kindly suggesting http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif, off-topic. If you think I'm the money-grabbing capitalist and incompetent to boot, you're entitled to express that opinion all you like... of course I'd just as soon you expressed it privately, but I doubt you would enjoy that nearly as much as doing it all over the forum that my work pays for...

And LiSe thinks I am 'quite calm'. Hmmm.

hilary

April 19th, 2004, 02:24 PM

By the way, I think Kevin's interpretations in the early part of this thread were very good, and I know they were also the product of a great deal of intense and careful thought. This has nothing to do with his job - in which he makes no use of the I Ching, of course (heaven knows where Chris got that idea) - but everything to do with his character.

dharma

April 19th, 2004, 05:13 PM

Hilary,
one's reputation often speaks loud and clear for itself. others can try to blacken it but the truth is (always) in the pudding, as they say. i have yet to find any lumps inside this cup http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif just sweet, warm and creamy -sometimes vanilla, sometimes chocolate- but always consistent http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

cheiron

April 19th, 2004, 05:59 PM

Dharma ?

I am listening ? not ignoring.

There are things I would say, but they would not further anything.

Peace

--Kevin

hilary

April 19th, 2004, 08:10 PM

Awww... thanks, Dharma http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/blush.gif

Definitely chocolate, I think, if the amount of the stuff I eat has anything to do with it.

dharma

April 19th, 2004, 10:10 PM

Kevin,
ignoring me or anyone for that matter, isn't who you are. i know you're ALL there and so it's cool... very cool indeed http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

chrislofting

April 20th, 2004, 02:51 AM

Hilary,

> But this part of it is, as Gene is kindly suggesting [ http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif ],
> off-topic. If you think I'm the money-grabbing capitalist
> and incompetent to boot, you're entitled to express that
> opinion all you like... of course I'd just as soon you
> expressed it privately, but I doubt you would enjoy that
> nearly as much as doing it all over the forum that my work
> pays for...
>

Firstly nowhere is this said or claimed, YOU are reading into my prose a LOT more than is there and in doing so there is the suggestion of revealing something that concerns you personally. From my perspective on the last few emails you are blackening yourself for no reason! ;-)

Secondly, my comments focus on opportunism and the consequences of., and also focus on your 'early years'. In those comments I have given you credit for your work and 'enthusiasm' and there has been no attempts to 'blacken you' in anyway. What is the problem?

Thirdly, you make the comment here that "I wish you'd made this accusation at the time, rather than waiting to spring it on me now." and yet you recognise that I have told this story before in your previous email of 'every time Chris tells this story'.... IOW I have mentioned this stuff in the past and you have recognised it as such but now it becomes an issue! What is going on? There is more here than is being presented. Are you having some 'personal issues' at the moment?

your starting to be inconsistent - that will not help you. Chill. dont make things worse. Forget it. It was just a story used to emphasise a point re nipping things in the bud. If you go through the rest of the email on midaughter I (a) gave you a hard time about it which led to (b) Mary stepping in and eventually (c) I was expelled. (and to me that ment that she was going along with the 'hexagram for a day' concept and as such was also 'in error')

Chris.

hilary

April 20th, 2004, 10:48 AM

I seem to have let Chris get under my skin. Bad mistake. But it's happened to better and wiser people than I am. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

The one truly important thing for me in amongst all this unpleasantness is to make it as clear as I can that I didn't share a client's reading in public. If I've done that well enough to convince everyone except Chris, I rest content.

candid

April 20th, 2004, 12:03 PM

I never doubted your professional confidentiality, Hilary. Chris evidentially makes a habit of insulting people publicly in their own living rooms during a dinner party. Must be a real popular guy. In the street we used to call that pissing in people?s ears, knowing even an untruth can plant a bad impression in people?s minds through the power of suggestion. I?m sure the girl?s high school locker room has it?s own term for it, which is where his tactics belong.

chrislofting

April 20th, 2004, 01:56 PM

>
> The one truly important thing for me in amongst all this
> unpleasantness is to make it as clear as I can that I didn't
> share a client's reading in public.

I never said you did. my reference was to the "hexagram for a day" and that, to me, is not a reading. For whatever reasoning you have Hilary, you are making a mountain out of a molehill - me thinks you protest too much (and refer to my "thirdly" section in my last post)

If you choose to misinterpret what I have clearly stated then I suggest you give up divining for a while since you seem to see a lot in things that is not there and that is not useful for your clients.

'hugs and kisses'

Chris.

chrislofting

April 20th, 2004, 01:59 PM

Candid,

do you know what brown-nosing is? if not, find out because you seem to be doing it.

Chris.

soshin

April 22nd, 2004, 10:43 AM

Dear Dharma,

Outing myself as I were not able to express myself well:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

Meanwhile I asked the Yi: "What the heck do I have to do with that quarelling here?"

And I received 7, The Army, unchanged, (too).

Dharma, we crossposted (I had not read your last post to Anon99 at the time I wrote).

So I take this answer as another sign for the heavenly humor the Yi shows that often ;-) but I know it's more than that, though...

The legions may well be on the verge of extinction, but until now they are alive and well... ;-)))"<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

I meant that I read from that answer we are both serving in the same army, but with a different style.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!>Quote:

I asked the Yi five minutes ago: "I am just wondering, why such capable and nice persons as you are act in a way that could be misunderstood by him as encouraging to do as he had done."

The answer was: 7, The Army, first line changing into 19, Nearing.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I see it now, the answer of the Yi is throwing me back on myself, saying that my army is not moving in the correct order, that means, I am "attacking" the wrong ones. But 19 gives some hope. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smile.gif

As I noted before, I were very upset because I am very grateful to both Kevin and Hilary (Kevin for helping me and a very good friend of mine a lot and being the humble and noble person he is and Hilary for giving this place here a home and for being the great teacher she is). So I overreacted a bit. If Mr. Lofting would have been here at the time I read his words the language I would have used against him would have been at least twice as insulting as his were against this wonderful people. So it was my solidarity with them that made me crazy.

So I misunderstood your words. And regarding the language problem. In German there is the phrase: "Ich wundere mich über..." which means: "I am surprised at..." I am continuing to make the same mistake again and again to muddle this one with the english phrase: "I am wondering why" which actually means quite a different thing. I did it beacause "wondering" and "wundern" have the same roots and therefore sound very similar to each other. Not to mention about a lot of other problems I have with english.

So it should have read: "I am surprised that you, both being the nice and capable persons I see in you, seemingly show an approach toward him which could be misunderstood by him in a way that he feels encouraged to stay and feel free to act as he acted before."

Hope this made me a little clearer.

Greetings and Peace,
Soshin

soshin

April 22nd, 2004, 10:45 AM

To Chris: I ask you to ask Hilary to create a permanent link to your site for the informations they hold, but I also ask you to stay true to your words and spare us from the part of your persona which is acting on kindergarden level. I do not think that such a style as you sometimes show is fitting, not only to this site, but to the Yi as awhole. Until you do not change that part of your behaviour, I will ignore you until you attack friends of mine again, which I hope will never happen again. As I say this, the Yi said to you (regarding what I questioned it: "What could help Chris most?" 2, third line changing, changing to 15. Not too bad!

Wishing you well,

Soshin

heylise

April 22nd, 2004, 11:00 AM

Dharma, I LOVE you. Ever realized, that you are the person here I learned most from?

Gene, loved your post and your wisdom.

And Soshin: respect for yours http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zen2.gif

LiSe

heylise

April 22nd, 2004, 11:02 AM

Oops, I meant Soshin's PREVIOUS post! Not the last one!!
LiSe

soshin

April 22nd, 2004, 11:09 AM

Hey, LiSe!

Thank you, I am trying to learn. But I dont now what is wrong with my last post. Please help!

Thank you!
Soshin

soshin

April 22nd, 2004, 12:04 PM

Dear LiSe

As you remained silent, I edited the last post a little. But if your silence was only "accidentally", please feel free to correct me, may it be here openly or per e-mail. I'm really trying to learn and I respect you and your opinion a lot.

Namaste,
Soshin

anon99

April 22nd, 2004, 03:24 PM

On the contrary Dharma, certain manoeuvres over the last 4 years by yourself have made it clear to me your intentions are no purer than mine or anyone elses here. But I sure can't be bothered to go on about it much.

Suffice to say you were once an adversary of Chris's, but changed tack in the midst of a little war with candid, where Chris became the pawn.

This is all water under the bridge, but Candid, came off considerably better in my estimation.
That is to say I perceived his intentions to be purer than yours at that time and indeed they remain so. I apologise Candid for bringing this up, its the way I see/saw it.

Can you not see that when you accuse others of passive agression you display that same trait yourself. Your post to me was full of anger. Please don't say that was in my eyes, projection etc I'm soo tired of that line. Oh and reference to age was not a literal but rhetorical question.

No idea what 7, 2 could mean for you here. I wonder why you question your role at Clarity ? What are you really asking in that question ? I would imagine the answer somewhat unknowable for we've no idea how many read this site, what they think or take away from it. Why would you have any kind of fixed role ? You are a participant same as everyone else aren't you.

I would be grateful if on this occasion you could refrain from insulting me, I'm tired. I will be most happy if you don't respond at all. That is often the best way for showing disdain.

gene

April 25th, 2004, 04:43 AM

Dharma

I am asking you not to leave. It is not my choice of course, but yours, but we've had enough of infighting for a while. Your posts are too useful for me and for others to let personal insults move you. (Or remove you).

A lot of this stuff is "you do that!" "I do not." "Yes, you do." Let's stop worrying about it. The fighting we did as kids, did too, did not, did too, usually went on until our parents said, enough is enough. And we all know the did nots and did too's won't change anything. However, it is in the nature of the human species that they grow primarily through conflict, as sad as that might be. Let's not break apart but pull together. Conflict or no conflict. A lot of hurt egos right now, a lot of wounded pride, and a lot of it simply over misunderstandings of what other people are saying.

There was an old, old star trek show. Where the Clingons and the humans were onboard the enterprise, and they were constantly warring with words. Each time they would show more vehement emotion a peculiar energy cloud in the ship got bigger. They finally figured out the only way to get rid of it was with laughter and love. So they played that part til the energy cloud went away. The laughter and love weakened the energy field so much it went looking for a richer source of fuel. This is a wonderful imagery of something that goes on in daily life. When we show hatred and anger the dark side, as yoda would put it, grows stronger. When we show love, it becomes weaker. The dark side also feeds off of fear. Often it is fear that drives us to move away in these situations. An internal fear that we do not recognize.

I realize that I haven't had the brunt of criticism that others have except in an indirect way. This makes it easier for me. But don't think that I don't feel the forces that are surrounding this issue. They hit me too. One thing that helps me is, I know who I am. I know how and where I am limited and where I am not. That makes it a little tougher (though not impossible) for someone to knock me over.

Get in here and kick *** Dharma. You know you can do it. You gave basically the same advice to Malka. Be sure and strong in yourself in a relationship. A personal one or here on the board.

I hope you will rethink this Dharma. Agree with you or not, a lot of people will benefit from your presence. In any sport the challenger is often criticized, laughed at, made fun of, and told he can't do it, until he wins the prize. Then everyone is full of adulation and admiration, and says, "we knew you had it in you all along."

Gene

cheiron

April 25th, 2004, 10:52 AM

Hi Anon99

Keeping this thread clear.

Have posted here:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/2042.html?1082883074

--Kevin

anon99

April 25th, 2004, 02:26 PM

FWIW Dharma I do think if you left it would be a loss to this forum because you give insightful and interesting replies to people with queries about hexagram meanings etc. It is clear to me you have a genuine wish to be helpful and that you do succeed in helping very often. That is why
I said I am quite willing to leave you be to get on with it.

I just take issue with some of your statements some of the time and thought you were strong enough in yourself that it would not bother you unduly. Thats all, I've no wish to harass you and hope you will stay to give others the benefit of your understandings.

dharma

April 25th, 2004, 11:39 PM

it seems that some of you think that my reason for backing out at this time has to do with a lack of bravery or strength on my part but you couldn't be more wrong. i am quite aware of my abilities and how far i can go. i certainly don't need to prove anything to myself by venturing out THAT far anymore. in my last post i stated that my reason for leaving was a form of sacrifice so that something better may in time take its place. it seems to me that this cannot occur unless i actually make GOOD on the sacrifice http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

as you all know, i've been here at Clarity on and off for the past 4 years; many people have come and gone over that time. Clarity has grown and changed over those years as reflected by those who remain as outspoken regulars. i have come to a point in my relationship to Clarity where i am looking around with more discernment at whom i am "getting into bed with" and i'm finding myself being much more particular about my "bedfellows". i don't entertain company with people who's idea of communicating is coming up close and personal, spitting in my face, and then saying "i thought you were strong enough in yourself that it would not bother you unduly". i would not tolerate this type of treatment from anyone in any other area of my life and i see no reason why that rule shouldn't apply here on this board as well.

in his post on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 05:07 am Chris said: "the need to 'nipe things in the bud' at times and to be 'strong' in the act; make the nipping remembered." holds much truth in the way that i live my own life for myself. i do not tolerate being spat at by anyone much less pretend that it didn't happen. however, i have moved past my need to prove that i can "beat" someone at their own game, prefering to play a more spiritual game that allows for a win-win situation everytime. the hurdle to overcome in saying "yes" to this game is that it requires a sacrifice of the ego.

sure, i tell others to be sure and strong within themselves when relating to others and i AM doing this, though you may not recognize it as such. if i were not, i would be forcing myself to swallow behavior that is beneath me, and i am not. if i were not doing this, i would remain here if only to prove how hard and how fast i can stick my foot up Anon99's a**, but i'm not. and the reason being: because i know who i am, i know my strength compared to others, i know that happiness is the point of life, and i know that to achieve it, i have to let go of my need to PROVE my strength to others by just letting my strength speak for itself through my actions, or in this case, non-action. it is evident to me that to avoid further clashes i must go at this time; this is a show of strength.

..... continued in next post

dharma

April 25th, 2004, 11:41 PM

..... continues from last post

i feel that Clarity has come to a critical point where it needs to have some distinctive boundaries setup that define it's character more clearly. right now there are no guidelines to help one determine whether they belong here or not. Rinda has suggested, among other things, in her post dated Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 03:18 am that "three (or any odd number) of folks chosen to decide who stays or goes, to decide based on behavior as related to Yi's core values. Perhaps consultation with Yi could be part of that process"; this is one thing that should be seriously considered as a necessary feature of this board. i have already stated my views regarding the Anonymous feature on another page.

it could be that *i* don't belong here. it could be that though it *was* the proper place for me before that it is no longer, depending on where Clarity's borders have shifted and settled in its present evolution. i know for a fact that i do not like what has happened here with Chris. i know for a fact that i do not like how some people have handled their part in the mess. however, though i am not judging THEM per se, i certainly have the right to judge their methods and their choices as either suitable or unsuitable for ME to continue on as an outspoken member here.

i realize that a lot of people benefit from my presence but when an environment ceases to benefit ME i must question why i should continue to stay. ultimately, i have to wonder about the board that allows people like Anon99 to post things like the following: "The last I heard Louise had been diagnosed as having Borderline Personality Disorder by some crazy therapist and I've not heard of her since." and no one questions them about making such a statement. assuming now that Anon99 is being truthful about his/her identity NOT being Louise, why then are ludicrous statements such as this dismissed? why do the offenders get off scott-free without ever having to ANSWER to the "remarks" they post against other people, who are not even present to defend themselves? in Anon99's OWN incredibly WISE words: "if we let this stuff pass in little ways, we will let it pass in big ways.

..... continued in next post

dharma

April 25th, 2004, 11:44 PM

..... continues from last post

my decision to sacrifice is not a weakness in character based on fear but a clarity of vision that i hold for myself. Anon99 says "I cannot make you leave - it is YOUR CHOICE." of course this is true, but Anon99 should consider the role that he/she played in bringing me to the point where i felt that a choice HAD to be made. Anon99 you say: " i am sincere when I say I do not bear you as a person any ill will and yet it was YOU who came and spat full in my face when my words did not sit well with you. do i believe in your announcement of good-intent and good-will for me? absolutely not! not if your past behavior is any indication. nor do i trust you as far as i can throw you. you have proven to attack without having fully grasped the messages of the members you are attacking. but what's worse, you fail to respond to the issues when you are called on them. i myself brought a number of things to your attention that you conveniently skimmed over and focused only what served your purpose.

i defended Chris on this page because after all these years of listening to him i've never felt anything dark and evil emanating from him; only a sincerity and a grand vision; Anon99 on the other hand has given me very different "feelings". Chris came forward after i defended him to announce definitively: Thank you Dharma, you hit the nail on the head! meaning yes! yes! this is how i feel. which should have made the situation perfectly clear enough to anyone who was interested in the truth so that the fighting could cease. but it did not, and you know why? because those who wanted him gone were not interested in being "fair" but only in being "right". end of story, nothing more complicated than that.

i myself said on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 06:33 pm "we may not "like" certain people but often it is they who have something that will benefit us if we could find a way to allow them to influence us in a positive way rather than the predictable, knee-jerk, allergic reactions to the array of choices proffered in Clarity's fruit-bowl and i am doing this. i have taken the time to carefully consider the who, the why and the whatfore and how it all relates to me. my decision therefore at this time to leave does not come from a knee-jerk reaction but from a deeply reflected thought process and consideration.

Gene is correct about love being the powerful force that pulls it altogether but he has to remember that the love must be coming from the many different corners of this board at the same time, not just from one seemingly powerful person. i cannot lift up the darkness that descends upon this board single-handedly while the rest sit back comfortably cheering me on and "hoping" for the best. it doesn't work that way. i am NOT a giant - just a simple citizen doing my best who often needs a lot of back-up and support to get the job done. right now this simple gal is in need of enough time to reflect on how her sojourn through Clarity has changed her, what it all means and where she ought to be heading from here. when she knows... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

finally, to everyone who took the time to write to me privately, i will respond to each of you in time. in the meantime, i hope that this post explains where my head is at. thanks for listening.

Demitra

gene

April 26th, 2004, 01:21 AM

Hi Dharma

I do understand. Yes, it is a sacrifice of one kind for you to leave the board. Yet it is a sacrifice of another kind to stay.

I am asking you again to stay.

Do I have the kind of love in my heart that would hold us all together? Probably not. It is a group effort. There are those that will not cooperate. There are those who tend toward dissension.

I hope to put something together soon about this stuff about Chris and Hitler. Sensoring what people are saying is one thing. Sensoring what they are doing is another. Chris left because he felt he had an important message to relay to the people of this community. Whether his methods were the best, I won't deal with right now. But he came here with great enthusiasm to show people what he had found. He did not realize, I suspect, that the way he presented it would turn people off. Chris is an intellectual. Like me, and I am a lot, very much like Chris, he puts the intellect first and only becomes in touch with the emotions later. When he is not so much emotionally inclined, and everybody is harrassing him about that, naturally he is going to feel left out.

He said some things, I don't remember the details, that stepped on some people's toes in a major way. I think it may not have been handled right, but we all don't handle things right all the time. Chris had an important message but his delivery system was a little off. We all have areas in our life where we are a little off. Chris had good intentions, and I can guarantee you he is just as hurt as anybody else over this whole fiasco.

Now, I realize, that in Hitler's mind, he had good intentions too. He thought he was creating a master race. The situation went much further with him though, as things weren't just said, people were being destroyed on a physical level. Good intentions or not, that had to be stopped.

Don't get me wrong. I can certainly understand and emphasize with Hilary's feelings about what he was saying, or perceived he was saying. And I understand that she had a right to defend herself and honor herself. The rest of us are stuck in the middle. Chris's tone of voice was in many ways overbearing. I think Hilary showed a lot of restraint while at the same time defending herself. Chris was frustrated. He lashed out in frustration. We all received the shock of his actions and lashed out in kind. As a result people are leaving the board, people are fighting with each other... Let's let it come to and end before we destroy the whole site. And everything that is good within it. There are going to be those who misunderstand us. There are going to be those who strike at us, and lash out with their tongue. That is the nature of the beast. But when we confront "evil" directly, it only brandishes weapons and fights back. There is a better way, according to hexagram 43.

Gene

hilary

April 26th, 2004, 02:01 AM

Yes, I can also sympathise with people who can't get on the same wavelength as the rest, and find themselves stuck outside the circle. Online you don't see rows of tightly-packed backs (which I have spent plenty of time looking at ;) ) but the effect can be much the same, when people gather around to agree that some other person doesn't 'get it'.

And in my more rational moments, I don't think Chris was actively trying to destroy my business - I don't think he ever quite realised how it works. And I was not in the best mood to explain...

Belatedly, then... Work as a diviner is built on complete trust. If my prospective customers believed I would publicise details of their lives (let alone that I'd do so after promising not to), I wouldn't have any customers. No customers means no business, means no forum for Chris to share his ideas! And more to the point, it makes me feel a little like Chris must feel when some bright spark accuses him of belief in eugenics.

So all he had to do to calm me down (!) was to say, 'Oh. Oops, sorry, I misremembered that bit of the story. My mistake.' It's not as if he had ever been interested in where the reading came from in the first place: it didn't matter to him either way.

Ah well. Water under bridges. (And Gene, I really don't think you're like Chris!)

You know, I took Anon99's crack about Louise and personality disorder as a quite witty admission that she was Louise. Agreed, if s/he isn't, it is unspeakable.

Last time we discussed moderating this board more fiercely, there were howls of protest at my attempt to pass the buck to a rotating team of moderators drawn from a pool of volunteers. Maybe times have changed? We should discuss this after the Mercury retrograde...

But I can be pretty sure that three people deciding whose behaviour is and isn't 'acceptable' would be a disaster of mutual misinterpretation. I have seen so many posts here interpreted as personal attacks when they weren't intended as such... misunderstandings based on language barriers... and not to mention much-valued members just plain going through bad patches. If we threw out everyone who went through an aggressive phase, it would be pretty lonely round here by now.

Also, while I appreciate the idea in theory of involving Yi in such discussions, I doubt that we would be capable of objective interpretation. Who will decide which of the warring parties some uncomplimentary line refers to? (And yes, I've seen exactly this problem a few times, and made mistakes myself about who was wearing the cangue...)

Sorry, Rinda, for the buckets of cold water on your ideas. Please keep posting them anyway - I do admire and appreciate your willingness to get stuck in and help sort things out.

Gene, don't worry - the place won't destroy itself, in fact I think we're pretty indestructible by now. We have had worse rows than this before. I am working on the very determined assumption (and Demitra had better not contradict me here...) that she will take the time she needs, recharge her batteries, and come back again when the time is right. I just hope it's soon.

gene

April 27th, 2004, 02:48 AM

I know you are right Hilary.

There once was a secluded village in the middle of a forest. Ocassionally travelers came by and it was decided they should have a wise old person standing at the crossroads greeting strangers. The first day a traveler came by. The traveler asked the old person, "I am looking for a new village to live in. What kind of people do you have in your village?" The greeter replied, "What kind did you have in your old village?" "Oh, they were mean and rotten, they were just awful horrible people. I couldn't wait to leave." The greeter said, "we have the same kind here." The next day another traveler came by and asked the same question, "what kind of people do you have here?" Again the greeter answered, "what kind did you have in your old village?" The traveler answered, "they were just wonderful people, fully loving caring, I just hated to leave." The wise old greeter said, "We have same kind here."

soshin

April 29th, 2004, 02:24 AM

QUOTE: (me)

To Chris: I ask you to ask Hilary to create a permanent link to your site for the informations they hold, but I also ask you to stay true to your words and spare us from the part of your persona which is acting on kindergarden level. I do not think that such a style as you sometimes show is fitting, not only to this site, but to the Yi as awhole. Until you do not change that part of your behaviour, I will ignore you until you attack friends of mine again, which I hope will never happen again. As I say this, the Yi said to you (regarding what I questioned it: "What could help Chris most?" 2, third line changing, changing to 15. Not too bad!

_________________________________________________

Dear Heylise,

I promised to write you back, but because I had to work a lot of shifts I was not able to do it before now.

QUOTE: (you)

If that something actually hurts people, yes. But what Chris does, can only hurt if you read it. And even then only when you take it seriously. When he told lies about Hilary, that was hurting her. But insults . . don't they tell more about the one who uses them? Of course you can shout back, and often it is quite healthy to do so. Personally I like it sometimes, like watching the fireworks, or a good action-movie. And it is good when someone sees the reaction of others on what he says. But that reaction should be aimed to the words, no more.

_________________________________________________

Well, I read it, and I took it seriously, as it "felt" very, very unfair, to attack two so helpful people on such a level.

I agree heartily to what someone speaks, often more says about himself as about the others who he is insulting.

"Of course you can shout back...but that reaction should be aimed to the words, no more."

I hear and understand your point. But if my reaction was a shout, then certainly not a loud one (especially when compared with his one). As for the aiming on the words:

*.) I did not attack him personally and I did not condemn his person in its whole. When I wrote: "I ask you ... to spare us from that PART OF YOUR PERSONA which is acting on kindergarden level" I made a very clear distinction between his partially helpful points of view and the help he gave to people (me, too!) and his behaviour in this situation. Kindergarden level is not such a bad injury, I most certainly hope.

When you say, "Condemn (I would prefer tear into him instead of 'condemn') his rude behavior, okay, but encouraging him to stay away is not your duty." I did not even encourage him to stay away, but I encouraged him to "spare us from THIS PART OF YOUR PERSONA..." There is a small, but important difference between what you read and what I actually wrote. I already apologized for using the term "us", but that was the only mistake I made as far as I can see. I also meant "this part of his persona", when I wrote about his intentions to go against again this website and the Yi. I never doubted that he is a worthful weed on the here and I do not want to "weed him out". The opposite is true. As he has an totally different view of the Yi he enriches us, although I continue to think it has not too much to do at all with the Yi anymore. Divination is living from allowing the "Zufall" or "Chance" to step in. If sosmeone wants to go around that and "ask" the Yi by rationally choosing his answer, it may be an interesting view, but not at all divination anymore.

But I did not sent him away. He himself did. Outing you:" It is the reaction which causes an escalation." This is certainly not true in this special case. The reactions from Hillary as well as from Kevin were as friendly as possible in my POV and when I stepped in, which would have certainly led to an escalation if it would have been before his godbye, he were already gone.

"The best way is to say your own say, and back up others who say valuable things, and ignore the herbs you have no use for right now. Maybe others need that one, who knows." This one is sounding very, very good to me, and I will try to do that in the future.

Btw, I even asked the Yi what could help Chris most. With the answer of 2.3 changing to 15 it seems quite hopeful towards his ability to change his behaviour in the future and I would be the first one to welcome him back when he chooses to do so.

In respect for you, too,

Yours, Soshin

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zen2.gif

I did not shout when I used capitals here, but to underline something.

heylise

April 29th, 2004, 08:04 PM

Dear Soshin,

Thanks for answering. Everything has settled down, so it is difficult to answer to specific remarks. I learned a lot too, from the way others reacted, and also from the way I myself reacted. And from my mistakes too.
About several things I can agree with you. I said things often too impulsive, without really realizing how the words would sound. With other things I don't, but I also think it is not important now.

I still feel that the war was too big compared to the amount of mud. And too sharp. What annoyed me most, was pulling Hitler out of the closet, it made me ashamed towards the people who died in those years of hell, that they are called forth to be compared to people who don't experience any real hell at all.

I think it is best, not to enter into a debate now. Which does not mean that I see your post as inappropriate. You did not get the chance to 'finish it off' at the moment itself, so I take note of what you say, I apologize for the things I did not say in the right way, and I forget everything you said, except the valuable ones.

LiSe http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smile.gif

soshin

April 29th, 2004, 10:59 PM

Dear Lise,

it is really a joy to communicate with a person like you. Yes, its over now, and you are right, to put Hitler out of the closet was too much. Altough I have a very personal connection with that problem. My Father, who is now 75 years old, served in the Nazi Wehrmacht when he were young, and he never learned anything after the war. He coninued with his Antisemitism and with his Nazism. So I am very vulnerable if someone acts like Chris and others seem to stand by and do not solidarise with the "victims". So this was from my personal history. I apologize, as I really cannot connect to the feelings and the fears those people had to stand through in this hell of a time.

So Chris' action helped us all to learn something, (because we allowed it to do so) and so there is a happy ending to this "sad tale".

With a heartfelt Namaste,

Yours,
Soshin

anon99

April 29th, 2004, 11:17 PM

Depends on your family background LiSe whether you think Hitler is something in a 'closet'. Like Soshin I have indirectly lived with the ramifications of all that and resent being told what I may and may not bring up here. Stuff like that goes through generations.

As for your direction "The best way is to say your own say.......". Well if thats the best way for you, fine, but I thought you were against telling others what was the best way ? Don't reply as I am as sick of this thread as everyone else is, just wanted to have my 'say' to you to let you know how i felt.

soshin

April 30th, 2004, 12:50 AM

Mon ami,

without wanting to speak for her (she seems to be quite able to do that herself) I think she actually meant " For me the best way is to say...".

"Accidentally" I could relate very good to that suggestion. I think that most of the misunderstandings are problems of language (not of German vs. English but language in general). Semantic problems, every word has a different meaning for each one according to his/her experiences in life, and so on.

So I guess the best we can do (or I can do) would be to try to understand the place where from one is speaking beyond words. At least, that works very well for me. The seldom exceptions are amongst others situations like the one with Chris. In such a case I do not want to understand but feel I have to stand up against such actions. Perhaps this is defiance against my fathers style of upbringing me and against his life's lie...

Just for making the place where I stand clear....http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

Yours,
Soshin

lenardthefast

April 30th, 2004, 06:29 AM

Unbeknownst to either party, apparently Anon99 and Chris L. by chance wound up in the same elevator in an office building somewhere in downtown Singapore. The following conversation allegedly ensued...

Anon99 punches the floor she wants on the panel next to the elevator door and while waiting for the elevator to reach the bottom floor,
turns to a stranger, who happens to be Chris L., also waiting for the elevator and says, in a
grateful voice, "TGIF". Chris looks at her for a moment with a frown on his face and then says "S-H-I-T". Anon99 was most indignant and accused rhe man of being lewd and vulgar. Chris says he wasn't guilty of anything like that as he knows that TGIF means "Thank God It's Friday" and when he said "S-H-I-T" he was just trying to tell her, "Sorry Honey, It's Thursday".

I cannot vouch for the veracity of this conversation, as it was told to me third-hand, but, from a very trusted source.

Namaste,
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/bounce.gif
Leonard