How do you see/experience time?

[rinda]

I asked Yi this question and received 27.2 >41.

any thoughts?

Rinda

[bradford_h]

Do you really want to know that?
"A myriad races came and went -
this Sphinx hath seen them come and go"

It's a way of being everywhere you're not supposed to be,
at least until time runs out.

That's a little like Midas asking Silenus what's best-
Best that you shoud not have been born.
Second best is to die soon.

I think the Yi is toying with you with this answer.

[candid]

Rinda, have to nod with Brad's answer. Yi is being cute.

In the spirit of playfulness, "turning to the summit" looks like a clock hand turning to 12:00 noon. It can not reach higher than this. It must again begin its descent (41).

[candid]

Rinda, another thought on this is that time is an attribute of 'heaven'. That of earth is space. Space is linear, and can therefore be understood in spatial terms. The only way we manage to understand 'heaven' is through marking consistencies, such as those that are relative to earth's position to other celestial bodies. In this way we can mark off time, as it relates to us. But in itself, time is on and on.

[martin]

Hmmm, I think there is more here, perhaps much more, the big secret, the final answer!
But what is it?
Let's see .. *scratches head* .. give me some time .. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Okay, 27 is hunger, lack, need, longing, an absence, an emptiness, a hole.
27.2 says that the hole cannot be filled, that the need cannot be satisfied. Food from below will not help, neither will food from above.

So, there is this hole, this lack, this emptiness, and nothing to fill it ..
Now what happens? What happens if I am bored for instance?
Right, I will become more aware of time and time will slow down. 3:15 PM, still nothing, 3:17 PM, oh, I am so bored. Tic tic tic tic ...
And my thoughts will perhaps start to drift into the past and the future. So, also in this sense (time as past-future) there will be more experience of time.
Something similar happens when there is a clear need or longing.
A hole that cannot be filled, a need that cannot be satisfied, creates time or the experience of time, in a way.
If there is no hole, if I am full, fulfilled, there is no time, no past, no future, only now.

Is that it?
Line 2 hints at a Gestalt technique: don't try to fill the hole. Just stay with it, feel it.
Then the absence may transform into (or reveal) a presence.

[tashij]

"How do you see/experience time?"

Having less, stealing more.....(from the gods)

[tashij]

seems to me the Yi is a bit nostalgic.

something, Time, that happened to it a long long time ago. When it was just an itty bitty Yi.

[tashij]

maybe the YI is fessing up to something here.

And we thought it was always beyond reproach.

[rinda]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/hex27.gif

Karcher's image is jaws, an open mouth - time swallows all?

taking things in - "This is a time to look at what goes in and out of your mouth." (p.106)

I wonder if this might be a reference to mindfulness, to staying in the moment? Experience is a kind of food for our lives and our character, and how we process it or digest it has an effect on our behavior and our lives. If we stay in the moment it doesn't get twisted into fears, we don't get led away from the tao... Moving to the hilltop could be staying in touch with the spiritual side of life? ...to our own personal and individual connections to the divine?

41 is also consistent with that - (p.134) "Diminishing makes things smaller, higher, closer to the spirits and ideals. Gather your energy and send it upward." This amounts to a sacrifice, a letting go of things/concerns (past and future) so that a new understanding can be attained. An emptying of the tea-cup...

Perhaps the closest we can come to understanding how Yi experiences time is when we become aware of that which is timeless within ourselves...

Thank you all for helping me think about this.

Rinda

[candid]

I like your ideas.

[andreas]

In lattice theory, hexagram 100001 is the gateway between the first spark of a beginning and the last shred of an end. It actively and directly connects the two extreme points of the great cycle of change. As such the Yi is saying that it is outside of time, its abstractions capture the tide of events without being tied to any particular sequence of unfolding.

The rest of the reading suggests that the Yi is a resource of great but hidden depths, and personal sacrifice is required to be able to see this gateway.

[rinda]

Andreas, (Oh, I can hear that in my mind's ear with a lovely burrrr...)

Please tell me more! why do you call it Hexagram 100001? Tell me more about lattice theory?

Rinda

[bradford_h]

H Rinda
I like all your insights here, save one -
That going to the summit is a positive image for seeking spiritual nourishment.
This is the Western model, not Chinese. In fact, the Yi may actually be pointing out the wrongheadedness of this here.
In China the way proper to humanity lies Between Heaven and Earth, and this boundary has all we need. Heaven begins at our feet, even when we stand in deep pits. And Earth ends at the top of our heads, even when we stand on the summit. To go to such extremes in search of our basic spiritual needs is to move away from our sustenance.
Again, with time, we like to be just about everywhere but here and now, running all over the place when what we need is here at hand.
Then, as to decrease, as the little lake starts to dry up, or lose some of its volume, accepting its finitude, what is in it becomes more concentrated, or richer. But keeping the leaks plugged (forgoing distractions) becomes more important.

[andreas]

>Andreas, (Oh, I can hear that in my mind's ear >with a lovely burrrr...)

Rinda, you've got me blushing :-)

>Please tell me more! why do you call it Hexagram 100001? Tell me more about lattice theory?

Hexagram 100001 is number 23 in the King Wen order. I write it this way with 1 representing a yang line and 0 representing a yin line. Cleary and Hacker both use the same basic notation. For me, the first line in the hexagram is the first digit reading left to right, and so on. So, 110001 would be Decrease, number 41 in the King Wen order. I find the King Wen numbers not very helpful, just writing the hexagram pattern is far more evocative.

Lattice theory is a mathematical theory that I've been working with in connection with the Yi Jing for a number of years now. If you look at the front page for my site

http://www.yijing.co.uk

you will see the lattice for the trigrams. If you want a copy of the lattice for the hexagrams there is one at

http://www.yijing.co.uk/downloads/HexLattice.gif

One of the basic ideas is that there is a sequence of hexagrams, starting and finishing with Receptive, 000000, and stepping through each hexagram exactly once. This is idea was first put forward, as far as I know, by Peter Loly in his article in The Oracle, Volume 2, Number 12. This is equivalent to something called Gray Code in mathematics.

The sequence for trigrams is easly to see Receptive 000, Thunder 100, Joyousness 110, Water 010, Gentleness 011, Creative 111, Fire 101, Stillness 001, and back to Receptive 000.

The sequence for hexagrams starts with Receptive, then goes to Returning 100000. It then threads its way through the whole hexagram lattice, before arriving at Splitting 000001, and then back to 000000.

The hexagram 100001 is what is called the union of 100000, the first step in the path, and 000001, the last step in the path, therefore I describe it as the gateway between the first spark of a beginning and the last shred of an end, where it actively and directly connects the two ends of the great cycle of change.

Although I am referring to "the" cycle of change, there are actually many paths through the the lattice, each with its own particular characteristics.

Andreas

[candid]

Andreas, while your math is over my head, I enjoyed your general papers very much. Thanks.

[candid]

Brad, your comments: "In China the way proper to humanity lies between Heaven and Earth. etc" are really interesting. Makes sense to me. But let me ask, where do the aspects of ancestor reverence come in? Are there any models of ideals expressed that extend beyond the between of heaven and earth?

[bradford_h]

Hi Candid-
Good question. I wish we had a cultural expert uninfluenced be Western missionaries.
In poular culture and ancestor worship there may be a upward movement or ascension at death.
I've heard it said that the Hun soul ascends while the Po remains below.
Also, smoke and Qi from sacrifices, and the aromatic spirits, rose upwards to meet the ancestors.
Quan Yin comes down from Heaven to help Monkey in Journey to the West.
And the ultimate ancestor, Shang Di, is the "highest" divinity.
Yet, unlike Christianity and Islam, I have never heard of someone placing their hopes or seeking a higher spiritual existence in the post mortem state.
b

[stuart]

Could the yi be refering to humanity on a whole.We all participate of the earthly pleasures which are not permanent.We pass through this life and live as if it is the only time of existence we have.So we get decrease as the secound hexigram to show our mental attitude and restriction.The moving line could be saying,This is your attitude which is wrong.I think the third line of hexigram 30 best describes this.

[candid]

Brad, so in a real way, heaven is no higher than the top of our head? I mean, in psych-terms. It is there the ancestors live. Rising to heaven is just rising to our limit, which is no higher than we ourselves. That sure seems like a grounded perspective.

[bradford_h]

Hi Candid
The bottom of heaven is at our feet. Tian Xia.
But if you have the big picture, there is 8000 more miles of Up on the bottom side of your feet than there is above your head.
The correct answer to the question "What's Up?" is "any radial vector drawn away from a reference planet's centroid of mass."

[candid]

You lost me there, Brad. 8000 more miles up?

[bradford_h]

8000 more miles OF up
There's stars over China too

[dobro]

Time doesn't exist. There's no past and no future; there's just now. And now doesn't really exist as a moment - it's constantly in flux and mutating.

The present 'moment' is a constant flux, a constant mutating - the form that 'now' takes is constantly changing. Our present memory of the form 'now' took 'before now' is what we call the past. But there *isn't* any 'before now' - not really. Where is it? Show me. You can't find it. Why not? It doesn't exist. It's a present thought form, nothing else. And even that present thought form is in flux, and therefore not stable, not a 'thing'.

Time, moments - they're illusions of the mind. They don't really exist. There's just 'now', and even that's changing. Independent things don't really exist by and of themselves either. There's just 'one', and like I said, that's changing.

Put it all together and you get something like: reality is a dynamic unity that's in a constant state of change, unfolding out of itself and dissolving back into itself. A bit like the yin/yang symbol.

[candid]

Hi Dobro,

I think of it much as you've just described. It's good to read it from someone else. Gives me a chance to examine it more objectively than when I hear/speak it in my own head. It's from this position that I observe this image:

Lying on my back in the tall grass, I observe an airplane crossing the sky, leaving a vapor trail. The plane is never in the same place at the same time, it's always moving. From the white vapor trail I observe not only where the plane is but also where it's been. Is this not evidence of time?

[void]

Time must exist, otherwise I would not need to start work at 9am 2moro rather than now. Saying now is all there is is well and good on the abstract philosophical level - but as humans its the fabric we inhabit. Whot use is there to say time does not exist when it clearly does for us. Not alot would get done without some agreement between us about what 5 o'clock is and what 10am is. Time gives us somewhere to experience our experiences. Experience is relative and temporal, thus need a temoral frame to inhabit to find existence in.

Time is a vehicle for the human consciousness to expand, to move, to travel. We could make little sense of our earthly experience if it all happened at once. In different planes of consciousness time may be meaningless, may differ experientally - but in this one most of us homo sapiens experience time, its what we grow in. How can there be meaning for us without sequence ? Did Rinda post her original question at the same time as everyone responded ?

Our learning from infancy is embedded in the understanding of cause and effect. Baby touches fire burns hand and so understands that touching fire leads in sequence to pain. Our learning in our earthly sphere is dependent on time, or at least our experience of it. We could not make sense of physical life without a concept of time could we ? Surely our consultations with Yi would be meaningless without a time concept. Sometimes it may say to wait - for a better time or until certain other events have unfolded.

On a transcendent level I would agree time is meaningless, but at the moment, which is now, we still seem to find it pretty useful for our daily lives.

[andreas]

Thinking about Bradford's remark:

>The bottom of heaven is at our feet. Tian Xia.

Yes, heaven starts unfolding in the bottom of our feet and becomes properly manifest at the top of the head.

[dobro]

Void - okay, fair enough. Time exists. But not as most people think of it, as consisting of past, present and future. That's a fairytale. There's just this flux and ever-changing mutation and dynamism that we can call 'now'.

What I like about the Yi is the way it expresses/reflects/captures the contour of the 'now'. But it doesn't capture the contour of the universe's 'now', it captures the contour of the 'now' in relation to me and my question. The Yi provides local echoes. It's like sonar.

[mick]

Rinda,

Hx 27 line 2

Nourishment changing to decreasing.

Our food being digested represents the most basic way in which we experience the passage of time.

Perhaps the I Ching is saying that you see/experience time in one direction only?

The name of Hexagram 27 is I. Hx 27 looks a bit like a capital I to me. Aren't there some philosophies that say , "Time is I"?

Perhaps the I Ching is saying that you see/experience time in a totally subjective way?

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Mick

[heylise]

Why didn't I think of that! I know that the speed of time is directly related to the speed with which digestion works.
A baby has a very fast digestion, and time goes very slow. Growing older, digestion goes slower and slower, and the result is that time speeds by.

Why line 2? Dunno. Maybe 41 is 'after' having digested?

LiSe

[sparhawk]

LiSe,

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

A baby has a very fast digestion, and time goes very slow. Growing older, digestion goes slower and slower, and the result is that time speeds by.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if you are joking and pulling our colective legs, but the above makes some weird sense... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

Luis

[bradford_h]

I thought that Rinda's question was
How does the Yi itself experience time?
Then it's - Not at all, not without context and each human's perpective, which is normally less than comprehensive, and normally not in the moment.

[heylise]

Got an email with an answer to my post above. I had to read it several times, before I really got it, but I think it is the most interesting view on it which is possible. I really like it.
I pass it on to the board, because I?d like to have this view here too. A very interesting one to pursue further. Not only with this, but with many answers of the Yi.


<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Your question:
"Why line 2? Dunno. Maybe 41 is 'after' having digested?"
My thoughts:
seen from the human perspective, perhaps for us to experience the concept of time requires us to discard (41) anything that might impede us from that intended target of experience. yet, in so doing we may in fact be encouraging our overall growth in the 'wrong' way (27.2) as seen from Yi's "less than comprehensive" perspective (as Brad mentioned)
Demitra<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

And me not pulling babies' legs. It seems that the bowels decide about the speed of time.

LiSe

[candid]

A note of trivia ? does anyone ever ask Yi 'what time is it?? When I'd like a bearing check, encompassing everything going on in my little world, that's what I ask.

[annietyme]

I've never thought to even ask that as a question. perhaps i will try this to help me gather my bearings

thanks again candid

[heylise]

I often do. Sometimes exactly the same, other times phrased a bit differently, but coming down on the same question. I have several entries in my long list of questions of a desperate 'WHAT NOW!?!?'

LiSe

[jte]

"does anyone ever ask Yi 'what time is it?"

I sometimes ask the Yi if it's got anything it would like to say to me. Not sure if that's the same thing you're asking or not, but I think it's similar at least...

- Jeff

[heylise]

In my website I have for 27.2: Do not try to restrain what is by nature excessive. . . In the world all is about the normal, but the world lives by what is abnormal. So give the excessive enough room to exist.
(do not restrain using the small size of jaws: biting it in pieces of hours and minutes)
So this must be how Yi itself experiences time: it does not want to restrain the wide space of no-time.

In the judgment of 41: ?. . Permitting determination?, determination is also consulting the oracle or the gods, and the answer they give.
Here the restriction, which the Yi is talking about ?permits determination?: restriction of ?the many?, the world, in favor of ?few?, the realm of gods.

And for the fanyao (41.2): Get rid of preconceptions, of all 'knowing how things are'.
IOW get rid of your watch.

Comparing Demitra?s and my own interpretation: we both see the same advice, one positive, one negative, one as the guideline, one as the warning, but coming down to the same result.

LiSe
link to YiJing Book of Sun and Moon (http://www.anton-heyboer.org)

[sparhawk]

Ah, Demitra... Brilliant and mercurial; so Mediterranean. The right amount of spice to bring out the flavor of any food without burning your mouth or overwhelming your taste buds. Translate that to writing and what you read calls for a glass of chilled Retsina and a toast to the writer. But watch out, thread carefully or she'll add a spoonful of dry red peppers, just to your plate. She'll then serve it to you with a charming smile and a "bon app&eacute;tit" that will send you scurrying for the nearest well. I miss you. I'm tired of guessing which Anon writing is yours although I know they pepper the whole site.

From Leo's Horoscope for today:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

When in social situations today, be on your best behavior because you will be graded by those who tend to be judgmental. Keep your thumb out of your soup and your foot out of your mouth.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, too late!! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

Luis

[demitramn]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/2396.gif stepping in ever so briefly to say "love the review, Luis!" definitely a treat http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif and to assure you that in my reincarnated form you won't have to guess as to my whereabouts in the future

(though i don't often wear red -too much for an already sizzling personality http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif- i, coincidentally, happen to be sporting a bright shade of it today -how'dya know?)

are you addicted to hot and spicy foods, Luis? iffen you have hot sauce stashed in your car or have a jalapeno in your pocket, you may be a chili-head. but don?t worry, it's a very nutritious and beneficial addiction that is not a sin or against the law and not even heavily taxed!

hmmm, depending on the palate of course, i can be as addictive as any chili pepper, i suppose http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif we both can seriously appeal to one's sense of adventure (consider the vibrant colors and shapes of our expression, not to mention that hot surprise inside!) dangerous, yes, but oh! so exciting

<CENTER>http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/bounce.gif http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/bounce.gif http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/bounce.gif</CENTER>

without the intensity of flavor that we dare to sprinkle around us now and then, life would be ridiculously bland (but you already knew that http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif) besides, hot peppers secrete pain-blocking endorphins in the body ...need i say more???

warning! capsaicin (the substance that makes peppers singe) is only slightly soluble in water and is therefore not as effective at quenching the heat as alcohol is. forget the well-water, my friend, it would be best to keep that Retsina handy -one jes' never knows ... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

are you addicted to hot and spicy foods, Luis?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh God, yes! And if it was a sin, I'd be damned for eternity!

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

dangerous, yes, but oh! so exciting<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/blush.gif whispering: did you notice the silence in this thread? I think everybody is in shock... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

forget the well-water, my friend, it would be best to keep that Retsina handy -one jes' never knows<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hot peppers and wine: now, that's life on the edge!

L

[stuart]

WE WANT MORE OF SOMETHING THAT WE KNOW WILL EVENTUALLY RUN OUT, DECREASE.

[chan]

could it seem to anyone that the Yi experiences time as divinations itself? i only add that in relations to all the excellent answers here.

[bradford_h]

Hi Chan-
I think that's a great observation.
As in physics, time means nothing unless you first posit a point of reference, to which everything else is relative.
With the Yi, the point of reference (or the relative coordinate system) is the question of the diviner.
The Yi just hangs around in a timeless state until its generalness is localized, or brought to bear on a specific place in time.

[chan]

Hi Brad, and thanks for that. Gives even more food for thought --- lol. : 0

[dobro]

"The Yi just hangs around in a timeless state until its generalness is localized, or brought to bear on a specific place in time."

Isn't that sort of how God works? Isn't creation a localized or concretized form of divine energy?

[bradford_h]

Hi Dobro-
I don't think much about God, nor do I think I know how it all works, but Meister Eckhart might say that every localization, every concretization, is the Master begetting the Son.

[dobro]

Yeah well I'm no expert either, but I'm fascinated by localization. A soul is a localization. Consciousness is localized. (Mine is, anyway.) I've known for a long time how the Yi responds to a question, but it really intrigues me that when it does that, it might be 'localization in action' - not a physical reality coming into being, but a meaning coming into being, a movement from the divine to a level we can comprehend.

All the ideas I'm moving around in this speculation are theological of course. But it's an easy enough language to speak, even if we don't stand a chance of understanding the reality it attempts to express. It comes down to the idea of Source - that out of which everything arises. I've always thought that the Yi operates like sonar - revealing the non-evident 'contours' of the situation (in other words, no net change in the energy involved in the situation, aside from an increase of consciousness). But what if the Yi's a kind of divine action in the same way that when a tree grows, it's a divine action?

[sparhawk]

Theology has a very bad habit: it can become dogmatic. As far as I'm concerned, all the theological tails, that for millenia so many sages have tried to pin to the Yi, have missed the mark. The Yi remains a most elusive donkey.

Assign divinity to the Yi at your own peril. Every time divinity was assigned to a book it has brought trouble to the world (should I cite some obvious examples??) Yes, the Yi has been used to found and complement quite a few creeds, but, that does not mean, or can be proven as being, a divine device in the sense it can be a part of God as God is understood to be a separate and discernible entity. Following the "device" train of thought, my personal view of the Yi is more on the lines of being a sort of Akashic Record (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/akashic_records.htm): you just go, find and read what you are looking for.

Luis

[dobro]

Our ideas about what's divine are deeply colored by the traditional religions, that's true. But aside from culturally established conditioning about 'the man in the sky', there's a reality that you have to come to terms with. How you understand that reality is a personal choice, once you've jettisoned the traditional picture of things. For me, the Yi is an instrument for reading aspects of non-evident reality. The Yi reveals a living reality, a flux, and ultimately that defeats any attempt to codify or institutionalize or proseletyze or manipulate.

[sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

there's a reality that you have to come to terms with<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is?

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

How you understand that reality is a personal choice, once you've jettisoned the traditional picture of things.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't this statement contradicts the previous one in some ways?

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

The Yi reveals a living reality, a flux, and ultimately that defeats any attempt to codify or institutionalize or proseletyze or manipulate.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'm glad you left out "discussion" and "debate" from the above or we'd have to close shop here... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

For me, the Yi is an instrument for reading aspects of non-evident reality.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, with this I agree and, in the way I understand it, it does not go against the idea I have of accessing a sort of "Wholistic Record".

[candid]

If there was no collective record, there could be no way to codify. Localization would be out of control chaos (called: insanity). There'd be no reference points to access. We wouldn't be able to communicate with each other, much less with the Yi.