Values and beliefs in the Yi Jing

[cheiron]

Hi Anon99

My take on this:

I think the Yijing is a value belief system apart from being much else besides.

One could cite many key concepts such as the mean.

Throughout the millennia there have been various movements which emphasised different systems of thought in the Yijing eg. Daoist; Confucian and Buddhist values.

Most great world texts have been subjected to the academic treatment of being compared (re Values Beliefs / philosophy) with other key texts like the Christian Bible the Tora or Quoran.

Curiously this has not happened with the Yijing in the West as far as I know.

I am really an 'end user' and in no way a philosopher so I am ill equipped to say much about whether some value systems are fundamental and others not.

As an ?end user? I have never found a value or belief which has come up in an oracle or casting which was not both very pertinent to my issue and which, after some reflection, I was very comfortable with.

--Kevin

[anon99]

Re your last paragraph - that is probably the expereience of most ? - if it is not, if there are times when people find their value system clashing with Yi, it would be quite interesting to hear about it.

So if many many people, all with very different value systems and beliefs are always comfortable with, or at least find no dissonance in the values Yi seems to hold, then in must be the Yi goes somewhere beyond these, transcends these in order to reach a myriad of people.

Or of course that we make of it as we wish, what suits us to believe. I disregard this to some extent as so often its advice is contrary to ones assumptions and makes you see things in new light.

By 'end user' do you mean someone who consults Yi but who has little knowledge of its origins, and history, who isn't a taoist, buddhist or anything else just consults and gleans what they can. If so I am one of these too.


Here on this forum it is evident that peoples values and beliefs diverge widely, yet they all consult the Yi and all receive oracles which are pertinent to the issue and which ultimately they are comfortable with.

[candid]

I question whether Yi has a value system of it?s own. I had this conversation with my friend a couple years ago and to be perfectly honest, I?m still not sure whether there is or is not a value system in Yi.

Specifically, I asked my friend ?do you believe the Ching would guide Hitler in his efforts?? His position was that Hitler would have received no coherent answers, and that he?d have thrown the book away as useless. I?m not so sure of this. It would imply that Yi has a particular bias in terms of values.

This came up not long ago in the Open Space concerning ?what would Yi say about Bush?? My position was that Yi is non-partisan and would take no position other than relative to the inner condition of the inquirer. Brad?s position was that Yi specially and historically spells out right and wrong concerning ethics of politics and warfare.

Interested in hearing further views on this.

[rinda]

Like Kevin,I make no claim to be a philosopher. I think it might be quite valuable to look at the question of Yi's core values.

Is keeping one's balance in the face of change a core value?

Is the importance of staying aware of [that still small voice, one's third eye, that of God within us, the holy spirit, the wisdom we can access when sitting in stillness] a value?

Rinda

[candid]

If Yi?s principles are not universal then they can not apply to any set of cultural mores.

IE 1: As I understand it, the popular socio-political framework of the time of Yi?s inception was not democracy but instead a sovereign monarchy. Would then Yi offer council to a democrat or republican? My answer is, yes, but only relative to the particular inquirer?s question and condition.

IE 2: Will Yi address a monotheist and a polytheist according to Yi?s own principles or core values, or would Yi?s answer pertain to the particular framework of the inquirer?

IE 3: How about a culture which practices polygamy? Ancient lords also had many wives, or at least had that option. So then would Yi council a monogamist concerning their fidelity?

IE 4: Does Yi support slavery or freedom from slavery? How about concubines?

IE 5: What about corporal punishment, or capital punishment?

IE 6: Or abortion?

When you speak of core values, whose values are these? Whose are they compared to? Can you provide an example of universal values?

[rhett]

Hi Candid,

When you mentioned

"Specifically, I asked my friend 'do you believe the Ching would guide Hitler in his efforts?' His position was that Hitler would have received no coherent answers, and that he?d have thrown the book away as useless."

Tom Riseman's book "Understanding the I Ching" says that Mao Zedong used the Yi. If this is true, perhaps recent Chinese history was (is?) again influenced by the Yi...

Aloha,

Rhett

[candid]

Hi Rhett, thanks for another great example.

This topic fires me up! Hope there's more comments.

[candid]

(just thinking aloud)

I think the separation is between moral codes and principles, and cause and affect principles. Certain actions cause certain results. Beyond that, I find no ethics beyond tradition.

I view heaven the same way, with no agenda of its own. It is what it is and does what it does. Its up to the earthly principle to decide, up to the will and up to the conscious mind. One fills one?s world according to one?s own perceptions and beliefs, and then sees that as God?s will.

Not stating any of this as fact, just a thought process, because I also ?believe? there is a Great Mind which guides, teaches and nourishes. But what of a conscious mind that believes there is no universal love, or no God(s)? Doesn?t that person wind up believing what they themselves have created? Or a person that believes that love is the guiding universal force? Doesn?t that person form that love within themselves?

Does the Creative have a will?
What of the mandate of heaven?

[bradford_h]

Hi all-
I'll go ahead and take the stance that not only does the Yi embody a value system, this system is coherent and consistent even as the Yi develops its relativistic and situational ethics.
Those who want to explore futher might consider taking some of the searchable electroic versions (Legge, Wilhelm and mine) and looking for key terms related to values (like happiness or persistence).
b

[heylise]

The hexagrams are archetypes. Or rather: images which come as close to archetypes as possible, because the archetype itself cannot be described in its totality.
So the marrying maiden of 54 is an image of 'marrying into a situation', and can be applied literally to a maiden who becomes fourth wife. But just as well to a director of a multinational, who will have to answer to many demands of his situation, even though he is the boss himself.

Hexagrams have no good or bad in the form of morality, only life and death. Which is a much more universal form of good and bad. They can point you to making your life stronger, or warn you for disease. Stronger might very well harm someone else, but if a tiger consults the Yi, the deer will not like the answer (to stay close to all those tigers around). If the deer also consult, he will tell them how to stay away from the tiger.

Harm someone as an evil deed is not directed towards life, not for the victim of course, but not for the querent as well. Very deep inside, everyone has this knowledge of universal laws. If you go against them, it will harm you. Maybe not make you sick, but your radiation will tell. I don't know how much is true about those holy men who did not decay after death, but being true to this inner knowing might have a result like that.

An archetype everyone knows about is God. Everywhere he looks different, has another name, other books, other rituals. But it is all the same power. Even atheists have this image, but give it no name, or an entirely different name.

Without archetypes you would become instantly crazy. Nothing could make any sense anymore, no possibility to recognize people, a tree, food, love, no inner power anymore to stay healthy. You would wither like a dead leaf.

LiSe

[bradford_h]

More...
I should probably qualify something. In the west we are used to values being "championed" and considered absolute. In the Yi every value reaches a point where it ceases to be valuable and the Yi is careful to define its limitations (happiness and persistence for example).
But I wouldn't use the notion of "moderation" to describe this. More like "optimization" which tends to be on a middle path. But the middle path is not an avoiding of left and right, it's the utilization of both.
b

[rhett]

Hi All,

The text of the Yi is a collection of Chinese characters, redacted over 2000 years ago. The characters have both symbolic meaning and historical-usage meaning. There are many translations, which adapt the characters into meanings consonant with thinking today. The character of the text can be viewed as a system of teachings, whether it was King Wen passing his knowledge to his kids, or the Sages of Old writing down their wisdom.

The use of the text, when you ask the Yi something, is different from the text itself. When you ask the Yi to comment on something, you receive a Hexagram (or pair). From where does the Hexagram arise? From your interaction with the universe. The text does not read itself, _you_ read it and see whatever meaning it has for you. What does the passage mean? Whatever you think it does.

As for the meaning, I like Lao-tze's comment on the Tao [S. Mitchell translation]:

"When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao."

Aloha,

Rhett

[candid]

Brad, I hope you know how much I value you and your knowledge, and so if I challenge your statements or attempt to qualify them, it is done so only to hopefully prompt further understanding.

Is it safe to say that these ethics you've mentioned in Yi: happiness, persistence, etc. are all based on the inquirer's desire for a particular result? And that these desires vary from person to person, culture to culture, time to time? (?Times change, and with them their demands.?)

LiSe's "but if a tiger consults the Yi, the deer will not like the answer" describes perfectly what I'm asking.

Lise, could you please give me an example of universal law which is other than relevant on a subjective level? Life and death are entwined as one, are they not? Referring again to your tiger/deer analogy: death to one is life to the other. So which of these is universal law? Is the universe pro-life or pro-death? Or is it amoral altogether?

Brad, I just read your last post before sending this, and that seems to change your original position. That is, your first statement sounds absolute whereas your addendum seems relative.

Hope my devil's advocate role here isn't annoying. I'll chill my jets on this awhile and see where things go. To me, this is such a facinating and important topic, relatively speaking, of course. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[bradford_h]

That's why I qualified it!
It's a very different approach to values, not seen in the west until Nietzsche:

Valuing is Creating! Hear it ye creating ones:
Valuation itself is the treasure and jewel of the valued things.

[rhett]

"but if a tiger consults the Yi, the deer will not like the answer"...

perhaps if the Tiger stops to consult the Yi the deer will get away ;-)

Rhett

[hilary]

I like the way Rhett puts it. The text may or may not have a coherent value system - and the odds are that the different layers have a few different ones. But whatever we might be able to (re)construct by analysing the text (and I'm all for analysing texts), that isn't what/whom I talk with when I divine.

[cheiron]

I like a lot of what I see here on this thread - learning... learning.

Also

"that isn't what/whom I talk with when I divine."

Most definitely for me too.

--Kevin

PS Not ignoring you Rinda - Listenning - Greetings http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[candid]

No one has tackled my questions directly. Perhaps because directly isn?t the way of Yi or the way it?s values operate. Rather than a fixed and immobile code of ethics, the mean is without form until form develops through the exchange.

To return to LiSe?s comments on archetypes then.

The dragon makes his appearance in the field, and appears differently to each according to their nature and condition (1.2). Then there is a transition, whereby a course is determined according to the individual?s nature (1.4). Following, the individual aligns him/herself, and attains the Way of heaven (1.5). If the individual beholds himself as the mean, he alienates from the Way (1.6). Therefore he hides away the Tao within the earth, within himself. He hides his light, yet still shines (36). (from reading concerning this topic)

I do think we then need to be cautious when assigning a specific value to a generality, such as imposing our way onto others as being the Way.

[cheiron]

Hi Candid

"the mean is without form until form develops through the exchange."

Or

...through the moment in time?

Put that past me again willya?

Thanks

--K

that is K with --

Welcome Wolverine http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[candid]

Hi Kevin,

Through the exchange between Tao and the individual - in time. The mean has no set value until the value is created through a cooperative exchange, such as the value created through casting and interpreting.

Or as Brad quoted Nietzsche: Valuing is Creating

[candid]

Kev,
I do believe this idea is expressed in 59.

Thus the kings of old sacrificed to the Lord
And built temples.

The sacrifice is to the Lord, but we ourselves build the temples, or values.

We see the frightening examples that occur when a temple is built upon 1.6: when men take the lives of others in the name of God, or to a lesser degree, when one group condemns another because their values do not align with ?their own.? This has nothing to do with universal values, and is a departure from the mean.

[bradford_h]

Back again.
I should have mentioned that I think the Yi very carefully avoids discussing beliefs and their systems. It is much more concerned with the attitude that the human being has while approaching his altar than with what the person is actually praying to.

Here's another one from Nietzsche on Value as a verb. I think that taking charge of our ability to appreciate things as they present themselves to us is a recurring theme in the Yijing. This one I associate with Gua 14:

From the Sun did I learn this, when it goeth down, the exuberant one: gold doth it then pour into the sea, out of inexhaustible riches, so that even the poorest fisherman roweth even with golden oars! For this did I once see, and did not tire of weeping in beholding it.

[rhett]

Brad,

Beautiful quote from Nietzsche. I have often enjoyed the dazzling display of the Sun as it dances at the edge of the Earth upon the sea. Never so well expressed.

Rhett

[bradford_h]

Hi Rhett-
We get good value from the moon too.
Especially when it comes out right after a fresh snowfall.
There's diamonds everywhere and we all get
stinking rich.
b

[candida]

Wow, this is a fascinating discussion. Can't say that I understand too much of it but I have a few thoughts. 1. Is the I Ching an actual entity in and of itself not a God exactly(because there is only one true God, the Alpha and Omega)as written in the Bible but a spirit? and if a spirit would you have to say that it is an evil spirit because the very name divination refers to devining of course which I was always taught was evil. However, the Bible says that we were all created in the image of God but after the Adam and Eves' fall in the garden, sin was brought into our lives and even though we were created in Gods' image we were now tarnished. The question about would Hitler have used and use for I Ching is a
thought provoking one. Does anyone know of any famous christians down through the centuries who have used Ching who believed it was good? I wonder when God told Adam and Eve not to touch the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden if using I Ching might be a similar scenario to this one? Tatiana

[cheiron]

Hi Titiana

Being a little naughty here as some ask whether or not these people were Christians:

C J Jung (?)
Herman Hesse - I think (?)
Lawrence Van der Post (?)

I don't have a single God - as I try to be WYSIWYG - I think there is a Dao because I see it flowing throughout all... Maybe the two are the same? I have no problem with that either.

Remember to though not all religions have a 'Devil' as such - I think it is mainly the Judaic ones. I don't find the concept of Devil very useful as it creates such polarity.

But again I do not know for sure? The nice thing is does not matter so much to me either? I just try to keep watching that river of Dao going by.

--Kevin

Thanks for explaining that C.

[candid]

Jung's father was a preacher but Jung was not a practicing Christian in the literal sense.

Candida, the Bible condemns the use of oracles, while at the same time lots were cast throughout both the old and new testament.

Rather than good and evil as spoken of in the Bible, Yi presents this more in terms of light and dark, male/female, day/night. In other words, the opposites in nature that bring about life.

The Adam/Eve idea comes from the loss of innocence, which happens when we are awakened to duality, hence the good/evil idea. The moment we acknowledge 'self', we separate from the wholeness of God. Yet Solomon's request to God when God offered him anything he wanted, was to know good from evil. Solomon himself then became an oracle, said to be the wisest and most discerning of judges. Because his request was considered noble, God added many other things (riches, etc) unto him.

Jesus acknowledged his wholeness when he said, the Father and I are one. He also said, the kingdom of God is within. He didn't point to God "out there" but recognized God?s wholeness within himself, and tried to teach this to his followers. This is what many other spiritual leaders have also tried to teach their followers. But its not an easy concept to accept when we tend to see ourselves as separate from God, which according to scripture was the fall of man, the loss of innocence and wholeness, resulting in being cast from the garden. There was another tree which Adam and Eve were permitted to eat from, the tree of life. The tree of life can be likened to Tao/Dao; it births and sustains all living things.

[heylise]

I asked the Yi it/him/her self "what is the core value(s) of the Yi?", and the answer was 26, 1 and 5 changing to 57. I personally have seen 26 always as being about archetypes and maybe this is just an answer for me. But it made a lot of sense. I will enter the texts I have for them in my website:

26, Da Chu: Tame and feed the big animals, take good care of the big harvest and store it in a safe place. Your life needs the big values, the harvests of man that survive the eras.
Love has to be universal love. If it does not rely on eternal values, one cannot even call it love. But even the small things one does every day need the eternal deeds of the gods as example.
Always, everywhere, one encounters signs of the big animals, even if one sees only a footprint, or hears a rumor. Gather the signs, store them, and save them in your soul. And tame the big bulls for ploughing your fields and for riding on them in everyday life.

26 line 1: There is danger. Harvest: to stop.
If there is a sign, an omen, then stop what you are doing, stop your human activities. Listen well if you hear any divine voice, ask for signs, meditate, whatever can make things go well again. Normal intellect will not tell you what is going on, you need to probe deeper. (!)
This line changes to 18, Gu, about working on what is spoiled. Everybody has alien influences embedded in his soul. Many are hidden; one does not even know they exist. It seems as if they are part of the personality. Especially those one collected in childhood.
In order to live one?s own life and one?s own fate, one has to get rid of them. The more one succeeds, the more happiness, strength and health will come back.
Every influence makes a distance between one?s mind and God, or however one calls the inner essential being. Really reaching God is very difficult ? except when one does reach Him, and then it turns out to be the easiest thing in the world. You wonder why you did not know it was ? it is because the distance is made of thinking, but to reach Him is made of being.
The corresponding line 1 (the fan-yao) says: Stem-father's decay. The deceased father has a son. Without fault. Danger. Completion is auspicious.
If something goes wrong then the most important thing is your concern. Stay calm, find out what you can do, what caused it, do not put the blame on anyone. Find out what it is, so you can do the right thing.

26 line 5: A gelded pig?s tusks. Auspicious.
The ?big? things you do in your life decide about it?s value. Not being nice, but being true. Not human love but superhuman devotion. Not the fat fertile pigs one raises for eating but the symbol-pigs one offers to the gods. Your time will be of all Time if you use your teeth for higher goals than eating or fighting.
(In ancient times pigs were brought up with beautiful tusks. The upper ones were removed, so the lower ones grew in a circle, sometimes even several circles. Poor pig, it was agony, the tusks grew often back into its face, and eating was very difficult, so it was meagre and skinny. The tusks were symbols of the moon crescent. The number of these pigs a man could offer in the course of his life decided about his welcome and status in the afterworld.)

(rest in next post)

[heylise]

This line changes to 9, Xiao Chu, small accumulating: A shepherd keeps his sheep calm through the calmness of his own mind. He lets his sheep find their own preferred kinds of shrubs and grasses, and just sees to it, every moment, that all are safe.
Hex.9 is the treading of the soul, the moving of feelings, what one emanates towards others. Xiao Chu is the dark silence of a calm soul, the place where wei wu wei originates. Here lives a natural responsibility to do what is right, trusting the path of non-action and the power of clinging to the truth. Being content with the small gains achieved.
Modestly accepting the slow way in which nature works gives others the space to discover where their path lies, and their self-interest in following it. If there is doubt in oneself, it will be subconsciously perceived by others, inhibiting our having a good effect.
(I owe much of this to Carol Anthony, who was the only one with an ?image? of hex.9, not only advice)
The fan-yao of 26.5 is 9.5: Having truth, making order (out of chaos) thus. Rich through one?s neighbor.
One does not become a good neighbor by being nice, but by being true and open. He will know that he can rely on you, always, so he will be there for you too. He will accept your decisions, even when they are not ?nice?, because he will trust and understand you.
(I think the 'neighbor' means that you will be able to live together with the rest of the/your world, have a value for it, and also be sustained by it. The way a balanced nature is a living-together of all kinds of creatures. All making life possible for all. Of course that includes also eating each other, but that is not 'wrong', it is a inevitable part of the health and balance of nature.)

57, XUN, bestowing seals: The blueprint or the seal that one carries, decides all what one is or does. It penetrates every action like wind or roots can enter anything. It has no name, often its existence is not even known, but it is always there and directs everything one does or thinks. It decides the way one listens or looks to the world.
The emperor bestowed a seal to those who were able to carry out his ideas, and whom he trusted. The seals one carries inside come from Gods or devils, from parents or heredity, from muses or experiences with nature. Some seals can destroy a life, but others can influence the world.

I did not add or change anything, except some about the neighbour, and a little more explanation of the pigs' tusks.

LiSe
Yi Jing, Book of Sun and Moon
http://www.anton-heyboer.org

(Candid, great!)

[candid]

LiSe, interesting question/answer. The way I interpret your reading's answer to 'what value(s) in Yi' is that the value is guiding, channeling and nourishing life-force. I don't see any particular value which is set or directed in concrete, such as a particular moral code, but rather holding back wild life-force, containing drives, dissolving hard ego, nourishing propensity to love universally.

This is a very fluid value, but a powerful one. It is not one which we can point to and say, "there it is," yet the influential value is obviously there.

I also see in your translation/interpretation the exchange which places the impetus upon the individual to decide values based upon these influences; the specific values decided by us, but endorsed as with the seal of heaven.

[candid]

(hope you don't mind me interpreting)

[heylise]

Of course not, on the contrary. You say things in a beautiful and very enlightening way. I see more now than when I did it myself.

LiSe

[candid]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif cool, thanks

[cheiron]

Hi Candid

Jung - Christian? ? Well yes you might be right ? and no you might be wrong.

Shortly before he died he allowed a Scotsman to make a biographical film? Really unusual for this man who had become very private... a man who had had a very long rough ride from the great institutions including ?Psychiatry?.

The film was called Hearts in its early edit form? I had the good fortune to see it as I was a student of the woman who?s brother made it? I don?t know if it was ever released?

That very question was put to him in the film (which was deep and sensitive and left one almost in tears) His answer was to gently laugh? and say Ahh, God as if it was a new word to him ? but such a sparkle in his eye! He was a deeply spiritual man? I suspect he was also a Christian?

Who knows? he never quite answered it.

Grin

--Kevin

[candid]

Hi Kev,

That?s interesting. Too bad the film isn?t made available.

All I have to go on is what I?ve read of his work, and all of this has been related to the symbolic values contained in Christian imageries. Two examples which come to mind are ?Man and his Symbols? and ?Memories, Dreams and Reflections?. Jung is quoted as saying, ?I don?t think there?s God. I know there?s a God.? But this isn?t contemporary Christianity as we know it.

When working with a Christian, he never tried to influence the patient away from their core values and beliefs. But he did help them to search for the deeper values within their faith system, specifically their personal symbolic references.

Jung?s office had several Christian motifs expressed in art, such as stained glass. The artistic imagery represented what he called ?myth?, and again, it?s value was within the sub or unconscious symbolism as it relates to the human psyche.

Fundamental Christian doctrine is not interpretable in that it?s foundation relies wholly upon the personal acceptance of the sinful human condition, redeemable only through the sacrifice of the person of Jesus Christ. It is faith in the dogma alone that redeems the soul of a man. There is nothing a man can do to save himself from eternal damnation but believe upon the atoning blood of the Savior, unquestioningly. This is not a symbolic reference, it is to be believed entirely literally.

Does this really sound like something Jung would believe?

[rinda]

Candid,

you write:
______________
Fundamental Christian doctrine is not interpretable in that it?s foundation relies wholly upon the personal acceptance of the sinful human condition, redeemable only through the sacrifice of the person of Jesus Christ. It is faith in the dogma alone that redeems the soul of a man. There is nothing a man can do to save himself from eternal damnation but believe upon the atoning blood of the Savior, unquestioningly. This is not a symbolic reference, it is to be believed entirely literally.
__________________

It has been my experience that there are as many flavours of Christians as there are people. Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Quaker, Fundamentalist, the list can seem unending. There are a variety of permutations within "the church" based on continua of theological liberality/conservatism, social liberalism/conservatism, concrete vs symbolic thinking, liturgical liberality/conservatism... There are snake-belly low churches, nose-bleed high churches, broad churches.... Some people believe every word of the King James Bible literally and that Jesus spoke English and wrote in red ink, and some believe that God inspires people who then tell us stories (or recount histories) in order to illustrate deeper truths. There is salvation by grace, salvation by faith, salvation by works. God is seen as a wooly-haired old man, or as Sophia, or as something beyond imagination that we can touch or feel or become aware of in part, through that of God within us.

I think perhaps if Brother Lawrence and LaoTze would meet, they would find that they had a great deal of essential stuff in common...

I wonder if the paradigm of the resurrection (whether or not one believes in it's literal truth) might correspond to Yi's theme of transformation and cycles.

Rinda

[candid]

Rinda, yes, I'm certain there are many correlations between all religious beliefs on a symbolic level.

[lindsay]

I think there is a definite and definable value system embedded in the Yi that colors its use even after three thousand years.

About fifty years ago the American anthropologist Ruth Benedict wrote a famous book called ?The Chrysanthemum and the Sword? (1946), in which she argued that all cultures can be classified by their emphasis on using either shame or guilt to regulate the social behavior of their members. Asian cultures, like China or Japan, are considered ?shame? cultures, while modern American and European cultures are considered ?guilt? cultures.

Shame-based cultures see the social consequences of ?getting caught? as more important than the individual feelings or experiences of the agent. Guilt-based cultures emphasize the impact of wrongdoing on the individual rather than its social consequences.

No culture relies exclusively on internalized feelings of shame or guilt to control its members, and anthropologists today reject the universal validity of Ruth Benedict?s method of classification. Nevertheless, it is still widely held that traditional Asian societies were and are shame-based cultures.

According to Wikipedia, ?shame (or embarrassment ) is a social condition and a form of social control consisting of an emotional state and a set of behaviors, caused by the consciousness or awareness of having acted inappropriately.?

Now I would argue that the Yi contains overwhelming evidence of a shame-based ethic. Looking at no more than the first eight hexagrams, I find phrases like ?no blame,? ?no regret,? ?humiliation,? ?cause for regret,? ?there may be gossip?, ?don?t take credit for success,? ?awarded a leather belt, but stripped of it three times,? ?do not employ inferior people,? ?joining with the wrong people,? and so on. Later we find people in stocks, humiliated by mutilation (humiliation is the purpose of mutilating ears and noses and feet). Food is spilled on the duke. The concubine and wife struggle for position and dignity. The young fox gets his tail wet.

In every case, the emphasis is on how embarrassed or ashamed people will feel when they are perceived as having done the wrong thing. The Yi concerns itself almost exclusively with how we fare in the eyes of others on account of our behavior, whether good or bad. The engine of ethics and morals is shame or respect among one?s fellows.

What you do not find in the Yi is any mention of how people feel or think about themselves. You will not find any mention that the criminal should feel guilty about his crimes. There is no appeal to individual remorse or contrition. The center of consciousness is not the individual as a nuclear self, but the individual-within-the-group.

Historians have observed that ancient peoples appear to have had little or no sense of self-consciousness in the modern sense. In China, the first literary evidence of self-conscious preoccupation with personal and private feelings is Qu Yuan?s (d. 315 B.C.) poem ?Li Sao.? The Zhou Yi was probably composed 500-700 years earlier.

So what does this mean to us? It means the Yi insists archaically on considering the externals of human behavior and its impact on one?s standing in the community. There is no consideration, interest, even awareness of human motivation or the operation of the individual psyche. That is why all psychological consideration of the Yi must rely entirely on positing the existence of symbols, things that supposedly mean something different from what they are. To speak of the psychological meaning of the Yi is anachronistic and false to the archaic mind.

So everything of importance in the Yi is on the outside, externally related to the ten thousand things. Success is the highest goal of life; failure its most shameful misery. Self-cultivation means becoming externally better and more successful in one?s dealing with people in society. This, I believe, is a very good thing, because it is exactly how most of us still view our daily lives, at least in our healthier moments. We seek satisfaction and success in the context of others. We dread looking ridiculous (losing face, being ashamed) and we love feeling proud of ourselves and respected.

I think the Yi speaks directly to our most ancient and least confused natures, our peculiar virtue as human beings. At stake is our standing in the world around us. The Yi tells us the way to succeed in the world.

Lindsay

[jte]

I think this topic is incredibly tricky - I think the *text* does have value systems embedded in it - in fact multiple value systems, among them:

- the Inventors' (Fu Hsi and unknown ancient Chinese diviners)
- King Wen and Wu and Wu's advisors (for the main texts)
- Commentators throughout the centuries (esp. Confucius and various confucian commentators)
- Translators' value system
- End user's as one interprets the text

These are all intermingled and I think can be very difficult to disentangle/distinguish, especially when working with a translation. One can read the message and see it in a wide variety of ways (and the translator did this before you ever got there).

Then there is the question of whether *the being that answers* (who/whatever that may be) has a value system. So, like LiSe, I asked: got 53.1.3 .

I must admit I couldn't get much out of this answer, unless I see it as "gradual growth leading to increase (in the way of the superior person)". I guess I can see that as a sort of value system.

And of course, there is the question of whether the Yi understands the querent's value system and adapts its answers based on how the questioner thinks... *if* it does, it could explain how the Yi could "work" despite all the filtering...

Still pondering...

:-)

- Jeff

P.S. I really there's enough in this question for a small book if one were to try to explore it in detail. - J.

[jte]

Lindsay -

"What you do not find in the Yi is any mention of how people feel or think about themselves. You will not find any mention that the criminal should feel guilty about his crimes."

I think this does depend on the translator - for example, Legge mentions "regret" and "repentance" in many of the negative lines - to me, those are emotional/psychological states.

Just food for thought. I'm not disagreeing with your idea about shame-based value system in the Yi, because I do see that, too. I'm just pointing out the role of translator filtration...

- Jeff

[candida]

I think I understand a small portion of Lindsey's posting above and hate to say this but I am a wee bit jealous that she and others here are so intellectually aware of things that I can't even perceive of, because of my learning disability.
Candid spoke above "The Bible condemns the use of oracles and yet at the same time lots were cast in the old testament and the new testament"
I know this to be true as I've been taught the fundamentalist point of view which says the same thing. Its' hard to understand because if I understood Lindsay right, it is the external essence of our being, our conduct etc. that I Ching is trying to get our attention with.
So....1. By using I Ching are we opening up a Pandoras' box sort of thing where we don't need to be lurking as it might be too much for our psyche to bear because of the knowledge we've gained? 2.God says in the Bible that "I am a jealous God and that thou shalt have no other Gods before me" If we give I Ching too much credence couldn't that be a God?
I bring these Q's up because how can a 3000 yr. old book made up of mathematical equational throws
that initially haven't changed (the basic meaning of the hexagrams)over those 3000 yrs. be anything really bad? Unless relying on Ching for every answer in our lives means that we aren't seeking God for wisdom? If I Ching is our inner thoughts revealed(consciousness)to ourselves, then how can that be so bad in fundamental theological circles?
Unless going back to the Garden of Eden thought that after Adam and Eve partook of the apple, all knowledge was opened up to them and God expressly said he didn't want that; he just didn't want them to have all knowledge for whatever reason. I Ching gives us knowledge and perhaps thats why the Bible condems oracles? Either way, this is a wonderful debateing subject. Tatiana

[bradford_h]

Hi Lindsay-
Good to hear from you.
That there's a meal for thought. Needs more digesting so I'm not taking a real stand here.

I'm of course very wary of modern scholarships' arrogance towards "primitive" cultures, and sub-cutures like those who penned the Yi. Not self'conscious indeed. Knuckle dragging small-brained Australopithecines! These were modern humans with brains as sharp as ours.

And, I'll stay fairly skeptical about procrustean oversimplification. I see equal doses of discussion on both guilt and shame in the Yi, but then these are both very much present in the typical human behaviors that the Yi likes to describe.

Anyway, to contribute something to the stew pot for now, these are the three words used most often in the Yi to describe these states, and a broader range of their meanings. Jte's comment about translator's slant merits some attention.

jiu4 1192 1068a 30+5 01.3 (a, the) blame, reproach, guilt, fault (found), error, mistake, wrong, failure, harm (done), defect, flaw, misfortune, wickedness, calamity, guilt; (to) blame, find fault, censure, reproach, do harm (s, ed, ing); (to be) mistaken, blameworthy, bad, wrong, responsible, culpable, faulty, erroneous, unworthy, guilty, harmful, mistaken, inauspicious

hui3 2336 947s 61+7 01.6 (a. the) regret(s), repentance, remorse, contrition; (to) regret, repent (s, ed, ing); (to be) regrettable; remorseful, contrite, repentant; thoughtless; [errors of thoughtlessness]

lin4 4040 475t 30+4 03.3 (a, an, the) embarrassment, disgrace, misery, poverty, humiliation, meanness, baseness, shame, regret, chagrin, inadequacy, wretchedness, deficiency; avarice, stinginess, greed; (to be) embarrassing, disgraceful, poor, humiliating, mean, shameful, regrettable, inadequate, miserly, stingy; miserable, wretched, ashamed, embarrassed, abashed; (too) little, spare, sparing, sparse

b

[cheiron]

Hi Candid

You do have a strong point there.

I cannot see him believing that.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

--K

[candid]

Lindsay, wonderful to hear from you again, and you make some interesting points (as always).

Your examples are literally based. I think this leaves out the metaphoric approach of ?eastern? thought in general. Trigrams themselves are external objects, yet it is their inner value that is applicable. Shame appears as an external concern, yet it is inner humiliation which is the consequence. Two examples of the east/west sides of the same coin. Western materialism and eastern psychology have slowly shifted places over time, but the core human value is still relatively based, and while the Yi speaks to both equally well, neither is the expressed core value of the Yi.

What I do see as an expressed value of the Yi is, exchange of transmition/reception back and forth like an electrical current. Yi is neither here nor there, and it is always both at once, so long as there is one being to exchange with. It?s message can be applied internally or externally equally well, depending on who it is exchanging with, or rather, who is exchanging with the it. The process begins with a subjective question, from which an objective answer can be formulated. This is the only definable value system embedded in the Yi I can find.

Candida,
As Rinda pointed out, not all Christian thought is based on the fundamental view points I?ve mentioned in my brief summery. Within the faith system of Christianity there is plenty of room and opportunity to expand upon fundamental beliefs to include deeper symbolic value. In fact, I personally believe this is where Jesus was coming from, and why his followers asked him, why do you always speak in riddles, stories, metaphor? He was, in my opinion, as much a Taoist as he was a Jew. He certainly wasn?t a Christian. As we both know, that term evolved in Antioch long after his death.

C

[rinda]

Tatiana, you ask:

______________________________

If I Ching is our inner thoughts revealed(consciousness)to ourselves, then how can that be so bad in fundamental theological circles?
______________________________

Ah... This brings up another question - what is the nature of consciousness? How are we (some might even ask "are we") "connected" to God? Is that knowable? Is that knowing?

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

If God is thought to be exclusively outside of oneself, and/or outside of this world, then perhaps one might see consultation with Yi as competition to one's allegience (sp? Hilary - how much trouble would it be to connect this to a spell checker? pthpth...) to God. On the other hand if one sees God as immanent (in oneself and in the world), perhaps Yi might be considered one way to make an inner connection. If one thought this, then Yi would not be another God, and might be thought of as another expression of God's self.

Rinda

[candid]

Brad, (or anyone), can you shed light on "the mean"? I'm seeing the mean as a possible core value of Yi, but not sure if I'm applying it accurately. I see it related to walking in the middle, as a yellow garment is expressed in Yi. This was touched on by Kevin earlier in this thread.

[sparhawk]

Hi Candid,

I interpret "mean" as something akin to "averaging". Within the context of the Yi this averaging would be something like conceptualizing situations and taking a course of action whereby a correct balance of forces is maintained. If this is not achieved to a certain degree, at some point in the future, those forces will balance themselves naturally with perhaps unwanted consequences for the subject. Something like snapping back in place. On the other hand, if a course where a balance is maintained is taken, the subject will be able to navigate situations appropriately, or at least take a path with the least risk of negative, but mangeable, consequences.

As you may know, I am a Fantasy genre fan. A few years ago I read a series of books by L.E. Modesitt called the "Saga of Recluce". Some five or six books published at that time starting with The Magic of Recluce (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812505182/102-2875238-2996139). (BTW, Mr. Modesitt is still publishing books in that series and I need to catch up...). For those interested, that series is an enormous essay on "keeping a balance" between negative and positive forces, good and evil, and the consequences of not doing so, in a very readable format.

Did I make any sense? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Luis

[bradford_h]

Hi Candid
There was a thread not long ago on Zhong Dao (the middle way). It was here that Arien pointed out that all of its occurrences were in line two.
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/1760.html?
A "community" search for the phrase will turn up other threads too.
I think its both important as a value and also easily misunderstood. I see the middle way not as a neutral or compromise position, but rather, as an "optimal positioning," to the place of balance that is nearest to all of the options.
b

[sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I see the middle way not as a neutral or compromise position, but rather, as an "optimal positioning," to the place of balance that is nearest to all of the options.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! That's what I tried to say. (I hope my words make more sense now) You neo-pagan, you... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Luis

[heylise]

Great post Lindsay, it made many things clear to me.

I understand now why I feel so comfortable with the Yi.

When someone tries to explain a philosophical concept to me, I usually get bored halfway. But a simple image can fascinate me. Because it gives all the meaning without the conditioning.
The hexagrams are like dream-images. Like dreaming of a prison, a car, a bird. All very simple and concrete, but able to draw your attention to an important issue you should tackle. I kept dreaming about a small car of my own in a time when I had to fight for being the one who 'steered' my life. The well in the Yi, the most concrete thing, is usually an image everyone can understand and apply to the situation. Every addition to an image makes it smaller, narrower. And more abstract, turning it into a mental one, means less applications.

The 'shame' aspect of things is a lot simpler than the 'guilt' aspect, and also more concrete. A cangue or entering a dark gully are explicit images, but I am rather allergic for 'ideas' about good and bad.

I still think the base value is beyond both. The cangue too is an image of the concept behind it. But every culture will use the images which belong in it. Like God has a different name in every religion, but is still the same concept. Can even consist of hordes of gods, spirits, holy animals and objects and so on. I myself also call him God, although I have no preference for which one. It is the simplest way to say in this culture whom (or rather what) you are talking about.

"The Yi tells us the way to succeed in the world". It is closely related (but much more directly said) to my idea of "that you will be able to live together with the rest of the/your world, have a value for it, and also be sustained by it. The way a balanced nature is a living-together of all kinds of creatures. All making life possible for all."


BTW, the occurences of zhong, central or mean or halfway:
Zhong in:
3.3
6.0
7.2
11.2 x
24.4 x
37.2
42.3 x
42.4 x
43.5 x
55.0
55.2
55.3
55.4
61.0

Dao in:
9.1
10.2
17.4
24.0

The ones with an x are the combination of zhong with xing: walk central, or go halfway.

Not especially a lot of line-2's, but a lot in 55

LiSe

[bradford_h]

Hi LeSe-
The line 2 reference was limited to occurrences of "Zhong Dao," a Xiao Xiang interpretive term.
We never thought to look for Zhong &amp; Xing together (going in the middle, walking in balance),
which maybe should have been part of that discussion. Good catch.
b

[candid]

Brad, Luis and Lise, thanks for illuminating the mean. Just soaking it in here awhile, holding my thoughts until more clear.

[gene]

"The Yi shows us the way to success in the world?" Yes, but only when you are concerned with that aspect. The Yi is far beyond any concern about shame or guilt, which really aren't that different. It does reflect our different everyday emotions. But real success is not outward or financial. That may be the way society defines it, but only because society is caught in a trap of illusion. Real success is spiritual evolution, (which has little or nothing to do with going to church by the way) Spiritual evolution has to do with coming to know who we are. If we are still divided at death, between the conscious and subconscious, the two minds separate, and we will not carry forth our experiences into further incarnations, and therefore, much of the learning experience is lost. The I Ching tells us how to reconnect with ourselves. There is also a hint of this in the story of the changing water into wine at a wedding that Jesus attended. Some say he was the groom. The changing of water into wine is a symbol of accessing the sub and superconscious. The marriage ceremony is a symbol of the uniting of the conscious and subconscious minds, after which the person has what may be termed, eternal life. For at this point the soul does not leave its memories behind.

The book of changes is in many ways a symbol for understanding how a superior man behaves in a given situation, which accords with a given time. Just as a sine wave rises and falls, so do all things. If the superior man is at the top of that sine wave, his actions may be different than if he were at the bottom. This is not morality as we know it in the western world, it is a much more practical treatise on a morality based on the demands of the time. In prosperous times the superior man gives generously, at other times he falls back upon his inner worth. And this does not mean "relativity" as we understand it in the west. Hexagram 32 teaches us that. The moral code is always there. It is simply a matter of how to achieve the ideal moral code in a given context. To me these things are universal and have nothing to do with the culture we are in, except as to how that culture relates to the point on the sine wave. I do not see a philosophy or moral code in the I Ching so much as a standard. And even that changes, as in hexagram 17.1, but it changes only in the context of the time. The sine wave has highs and lows, but overall, it remains a sine wave.

If I have time I will continue this later.
Gene

[lindsay]

Thanks for the welcome, friends, I respect your ideas very much. I?m sorry if I seem to be highjacking the thread on a slightly different course ? ignore me if you like ? but I really am interested in this question of values in the Yi, and I see it a little differently.

Candid is right on target about my POV ? I am reading the Yi very, very literally. I do not want to think about metaphors and symbols until I understand the direct discourse in the Yi. What is it saying in plain language? I am trying hard to see what is in front of my face. So, for example, when the Yi includes the phrase ?no blame? (wu jiu) again and again in its text, I wonder why? Obviously, judging from its frequency, the Yi is trying to make a point of some importance.

Blame? I do not know many people who blame themselves or accept blame easily when things go wrong. I myself am often ready to blame someone else or the circumstances or the weather ? anything but myself. Sometimes I just excuse myself by saying, ?The Devil made me do it!? I can feel guilty, but rarely do I admit I am fundamentally at fault, rarely do I accept blame for what I do.

Shirking blame seems so natural to me that I am inclined to see it as human nature. Why should I care if people blame me or not? What matters is I don?t blame myself, is it not? This, my friends, is an entirely Western viewpoint.

The truth about blame is that it is something we put on other people. Blame is the expression of disapproval that comes from assigning responsibility for improper behavior to another individual. Blame is a judgment we make about others. So when the Yi says, ?No blame,? it means, ?Other people will not blame you for doing this.?

Obviously, people in the world of the Yi cared a great deal about whether other people blamed them. They cared enough that the Yi makes a very big point out of situations that do not incur blame. It?s almost the most important thing, this threat of blame. So you read something like ?you broke your arm, you had your nose cut off, your house is in flames, and your dog is dead? ? BUT ? no problem! ? because there is no blame!

Imagine what life would be like if the worst thing that could happen is that we lose the approval of the people around us? What if the people we love and respect and depend on ?blamed? us? My belief is that we are in fact living in that very world, we are scared to death of alienating our friends, lovers, employers, leaders, anyone of value to us. This is one unconscious link between us and the world of the Yi, and a very, very old one it is.

I think a careful examination will show the Yi is more concerned with group or social relations than any others. Man is a pack animal. I leave it to you to decide whether in daily life you are more concerned with your relations with other people than any other issue. You may find that your values and those of the Yi are really rather close.

Lindsay

[gene]

Often men march off to war because they are more afraid of rejection than they are of loss of life or limb. Rejection is the biggest fear of all.

One way of looking at blame, is the Yi is often saying. Nothing you did caused this situation to come about. It is not your fault. It is just fate or destiny or coincidence or a sign of the times whatever. It doesn't necessarily mean blame in the sense that the I Ching is chastising you for something. It more often and more likely means, this situation would have happened regardless of any actions you took. A General might feel guilty because he lost a battle and a city is destroyed. The Yi might be saying, you could not have stopped it.

Yes, the I Ching relates very much to the social mores and our place in society. Especially from the Confucian perspective. From the Taoist perspective, not so much. They were more concerned with inner development.

Gene

[candid]

Lindsay, great points. thinkin..

[jte]

"I do not want to think about metaphors and symbols until I understand the direct discourse in the Yi. What is it saying in plain language? "

Doesn't the answer to that depend on what you asked? For example, 19.2 (joint approach/advancing in company) would mean very different things literally if you asked about, say, taking a class, participating in a volunteer event, or going out to meet with an old friend.

Maybe I misunderstood what your point was, but I see the generality of the text as part and parcel of its usefulness, since it's what lets you ask about a very wide variety of topics and still get an interpretable response (although that interpretation part can be tricky, as we all know).

"So when the Yi says, ?No blame,? it means, ?Other people will not blame you for doing this.? "

No doubt sometimes it does. Sometimes, though, I think it can mean *I* (the Yi) don't blame you... (even if other people DO blame you).

Just my two cents...

- Jeff

[lindsay]

Jeff, you bring up many excellent points, but I?d like to respond to a couple of them. You noted earlier that the Yi is a composite document subject to many different interpretations (all translation is interpretation) and glosses, and therefore likely to contain many different value systems. True enough, yet what strikes me about the Yi is the durable integrity of its text. You may peel away as many layers from the onion as you like, but in the end the Yi remains an onion, not a turnip. Or, to use another metaphor, I sometimes think of the Yi as being like concrete, a mixture of substances stronger and more useful than any of its components. To be blunt, the whole is more than (and different from) the sum of its parts.

I also think it is not quite true to say the meaning of the text depends on the question. Certainly the interpretation of the text may vary, but not its essential meaning. What does ?no blame? mean? And more interesting, what does the phrase imply? Why does the Yi put so much emphasis on this whole notion of blame\regret\humiliation? Once we have the meaning in our thoughts, we can apply it to the specific situation through interpretation.

Finally, I do think ?no blame? may also mean ?you need not blame yourself,? but to say it can mean ?I don?t blame you? is to take a breathtaking leap into the abyss. Who exactly is the ?I? in ?I don?t blame you?? Are you suggesting the Yi contains an actual personality capable of passing judgment on your behavior? My, my. Let me go one step further. What if ?no blame? means ?we don?t blame you?? This is more consistent with what we know about Shang-Zhou divination, which seems often aimed at the ancestors to answer questions and solve problems.

Fun reading your stuff. Also hope to write more later to others.

Lindsay

[heylise]

I don't think the things said are contradictory. The phrase 'no blame' can be confusing, so I will take one, which will not cause any misunderstanding: the well.
No doubt possible what a well is. No translator giving 'another' well. But the well includes all possible meanings, from all different times and cultures. Not one of these different interpretations has a problem with it. Even someone living where no wells are, can understand what it is.
The reason that it is understandable for all: it is a simple and concrete image. I did understand hex. 55 when I learned it was a garrison. Hex. 1 about drought and rain. Hex.11 a holy mountain. Hex. 22 herbs, and so on. All those simple and concrete images made the meanings much wider instead of narrowing them down. When the images are simple, every culture can use them. So the most valuable Yi I can find, is the one of the 'simple' beginning, and simple means closer to universal concepts.

The simple and concrete images seem farther from daoist ideas than the philosophical interpretations, but they are not. They make it possible for every individual to find his own meaning in them, and all the time they stay the same image.

LiSe

[heylise]

Guilt is 'modern', the pain is inside. Shame is older, the pain is both inside and outside. When you do 'wrong' in the jungle, and the tiger gets you, the pain is only concrete, not in your soul, but still the pain as result from wrongdoing.

It all comes from, like Lindsay said, the ancestors. They have set the tradition for the community one lives in. For the mindset inside oneself (inherited and learned from parents and all those before). And their ancestors have learned all creatures how to survive in the jungle.
We have no trouble to translate 'stepping on the tiger's tail' into our modern lives. Not in spite of its primitiveness, but thanks to it.

Oh, and zhong dao is not in the original Yi, only in the (later) Wings.

LiSe

[candid]

Lindsay, this is a small and obvious point: If you were captured and put into a prison, with no contact with the outside world for one year, not even with the guards or other prisoners, and the only material you had with you was the yijing, what usefulness would the book have to you? Would then the Yi itself not become your social context, and judge, as Jeff had proposed?

As you've said, we are pack animals, and much of Yi's context is based on our relationship with others, and I suppose its why Yi refers so much to isolation as a negative. The inference nearly always comes down to relationships with others; the Well and Cauldron being possible exceptions, both being man made objects rather than personifications or anthropomorphisms. Yet if there were no others, I believe we'd still need to reflect on some social context, real or imagined, in order to receive value, in order to activate our sense of connectedness. In a true void there would be no use for the oracle. So: connectedness as a core value? Pi (union).

hmm

[rinda]

Candid - the well _is_ a symbol of connectedness, it's where the common place where everybody in the community meets a basic survival need, and also meets social needs. We also each reach into ourselves for that sense of connection with the spiritual - a completely solitary activity that leads to a sense of connection with the whole... ... And the cauldron - we cook not just for ourselves, we cook (and clean out messes) for each other too.

Rinda

[candid]

true enough

[candid]

Rinda, the only mention I would take exception with is your reference to "spiritual connection." To one who is not "spiritual", that would have no meaning. That is why I used the term: real or imagined.

[rinda]

Candid, you are right, and I need to clarify.

"Water in a well results from the accomplishments of human beings. All the underground streams are there, but without digging the water is wasted."

(from Huang's "The complete I Ching" p.385.)

That's why we need to sit in stillness.

Rinda

[heylise]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/6331/2049.gif Ji&ugrave;: fault or mistake. Foot above man. The foot is upside down (sui): walk slowly or with difficulty. Wieger: with shackles. The character at right is another old version: man, another (shackled or hindered?) man, a mouth and ? (shackles or old shoes?). Shuo Wen: dragging oneself along, hindered by worn-down shoes.
Meanings: do wrong to, inflict calamity; misfortune, calamity.

Many characters like this one are explained at http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/origins/index.html
go to the page "answers of the oracle", or "shaman".

LiSe

[lindsay]

Once again LiSe says in a few words what I struggled to say in hundreds. She is truly a wonder!

I also loved the comments of Candid and Rinda about the ding and the well, and Gene pointed out what I think is one of the Yi?s greatest mysteries ? its polyvalent ability to deal on many levels at once, from the trivial to the sublime. Now I imagine (jokingly) that Jeff is going to say this is due to the Yi?s ambiguity and sketchiness, but I think there?s probably more to it than oracular vagueness.

Before leaving the topic, I only want to add that shame is still an enormous moral force throughout the world. Perhaps the strongest of all. Memories of shame burn eternally in the mind, even though we eventually forget most of our crimes and transgressions. I will never, ever forget the moment my old grandfather gently caught me in a lie about going to the movies. I felt so ashamed, so small and miserable ? the memory is still a dagger in my heart, and my cheeks tingle even now. ?Come, come!? you say. A six year-old boy tells an innocent, inconsequential lie, and fifty years later a grown man feels inconsolable remorse at the vivid memory of it? Ridiculous! But I say, ?Welcome to the world of the Yi.?

No law, no code, no faith can match the power of shame. This is why we are so disturbed by people who seem to be without shame. I think it is this quality (or lack of quality) in modern politicians that make them so repulsive.

But shame is not a value ? it is an ancient visceral mechanism for controlling behavior. So how should we act? What should we value in ourselves, in others, in the world according to the Yi? I feel we have only set the table in this discussion. We have put out the plates and silverware, glasses and bowls ? but where is the food? What values would the Yi have us keep?

Who will serve the first course?

Lindsay

[candid]

Lindsay, I sure have missed your special shade of color that you bring to us. Thanks for provoking my thoughts in a direction I'd not have otherwise considered.

btw, my mysterious French granny found a roll of lifesaver candy I'd pinched from the local supermarket, also when I was 6, and scolded me lovingly. I know exactly the peculiar shame you speak of. The impact was immeasurable, and still is. That is value!

[jte]

Hi, Lindsay -

"Finally, I do think ?no blame? may also mean ?you need not blame yourself,? but to say it can mean ?I don?t blame you? is to take a breathtaking leap into the abyss."

I understand what you mean, but for me it's more like an inevitable conclusion than a leap. In other words, the sum total of my personal experiences with the Yi converge on that conclusion. But yes, an abyss, since it's based on personal experience and not falsifiable (scientifically provable/unprovable). However, since I'm not really out to convince others of my belief, that part of it doesn't worry me much. I'm also very aware that this view is only one of many possible views regarding how the Yi operates.

"Who exactly is the ?I? in ?I don?t blame you??"

That, I don't know.

"Are you suggesting the Yi contains an actual personality capable of passing judgment on your behavior?"

Yes, :-). I think contains isn't quite the right word. I'm not 100% sure what the right way to put this is. Maybe somethine like "...can express the views of an actual personality..." .

"What if ?no blame? means ?we don?t blame you?? This is more consistent with what we know about Shang-Zhou divination, which seems often aimed at the ancestors ..."

That would be another theory and reasonably consistent with what I've experienced, too. I try to keep an open mind about these things.

Sorry to go on about my idiosyncratic views (but, hey, you asked ;-) ). What are the values/value systems of the Yi? I must confess, I have no definite idea supported by evidence. Maybe someone else can serve that dish...

:-)

- Jeff

[heylise]

"Who exactly is the ?I? in ?I don?t blame you??"

Maybe Megabobby (see thread EGOMANIA).

(not a joke)

LiSe

[heylise]

I guess I should add some explanation. Phew, read all this some time ago, so all became an image in my mind instead of a list of reproducible facts.
Read a (any) book by Amit Goswami, then you know what I mean. Maybe a title explains much: "The Selfaware Universe". And one sentence: . . . recognized consciousness as the ground of all being and saw that one could build a science on that metaphysical basis . . .
He calls this 'consciousness' ("consciousness is the missing causal organizing principle in today's science"), and "the concept of a transpersonal self beyond the behavioral ego, . . . a two-level self-identity".

'Consciousness encompasses both
Ego: reasoning, continuous, determined, linear, local, personal, classical logic.
AND Quantum self: creativity, discontinuous, synchronistic, holistic, nonlocal, transpersonal, quantum logic.

LiSe

[heylise]

I edited the above post: consciousness encompasses both ego and quantum self.

LiSe

[anon99]

Going back to the 'no blame' stuff..If everyone IS blaming you and you consult to see if you are indeed at fault and you receive 'no blame' then its hard to figure out 'what' isn't blaming you.

One time I really didn't know if I was to blame and got this response, so I was puzzled ? Something wasn't blaming me, what was it that wasn't blaming ? Thats another question, tackled here before.....

[candid]

Anon, its your fault. Just accept the blame and be done with it. (just kidding)

I think like everything in Yi, that is to be discerned as best as we're able. Its like getting 4, then getting all shameful, only to find out later that Yi was pointing not to you at all but someone or something else entirely. As long as we're honest with ourselves, praise or blame becomes obvious in time. (but you already know this http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif)

[lindsay]

Maybe "no blame" sometimes means there is no blame associated with not understanding the oracle. Sort of the oracular equivalent of the American slang expression, "Whatever." For example, perhaps 7.4 should read, "The army retreats. Or whatever." This may be the Yi's tactful way of reassuring us when we don't have a clue what it is talking about.

Lindsay

[soshin]

Quote:

"Going back to the 'no blame' stuff..If everyone IS blaming you and you consult to see if you are indeed at fault and you receive 'no blame' then its hard to figure out 'what' isn't blaming you.

One time I really didn't know if I was to blame and got this response, so I was puzzled ? Something wasn't blaming me, what was it that wasn't blaming ? Thats another question, tackled here before....."

Seems to be a very good question for me. I would suggest the one who is not blaming you is the universe. You seemed not to have went against the universes "will" or "intentions" (wrong words because I think "God" or "The Universe" ot "The WAY" have no intentions at all, but I guess you "get me"). http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

This WAY seems not always to be the way most people follow, so it can happen they blame you for something one is not at all to blame. Or even worse, if one's connection to the WAY is more or less blocked, s/he could blame him/herself for something s/he is not to blame.

On the other hand, the opposite is, I guess, happening more often. We think self-righteousness, we are not to blame, but the Yi blames us. And as the voice from the heart of the universe which is the same as the very deepest point of our heart to which the Yi is only lending a voice, th Yi is per definitionem always right.

Namaste,

Soshin

[anon99]

Or sometimes I think it may be that one is simply instrumental in some wider picture one has absolutely no knowledge of. Like the gods are playing and you are the player they put here or there at any particular time. The effects of action reach so far out of our sight we can't know for sure that 'bad' action can't or never has a good effect, or vice versa. In which case you might think you did something bad, but it was necessary or instrumental in a bigger story (of which you are not aware) hence there is no blame, even when there appears to be ?

The Yi saying 'whatever' ? I imagine it wants to say 'whatever' very often. Or 'whatever' is applicable very often - depending on your idea of who Yi is.

[lindsay]

Playthings of the gods? I love it, Anon99. This is pretty much the view of the ancient Greeks, back when they took their own myths seriously. Their gods were not morally predictable or accountable, and the gods were always fooling around in human affairs to settle scores between each other. I've often thought polytheism explained a lot of the strange stuff that goes on in this life better than the dominant monotheistic model. Why did polytheism die out, anyway? Maybe it's time for a pagan revival. Or whatever.

Lindsay

[gene]

There is a Pagan revival of sorts. But even more than that, a growing recognition, supportable by quantum physics, that this indeed is a "self aware" universe. As such the I Ching really does have a personality, the ultimate personality. Not so much a personality as a universal awareness. As such, and I've said it several times, it is not an automatic response system. It does choose the answer to give you based on its own self awareness. And the answer may or may not have a lot of meaning to you. The deeper the maturity level, the more powerful the answers will be.

Gene

[candid]

The bigger picture, yes. A wrong that was part of a bigger right. No blame from self-aware universe.

enjoying the hell out of these ideas!

[soshin]

Dear Gene,

"The deeper the maturity level, the more powerful the answers will be."

I agree absolutely. From my own experience, in my beginner years I asked a lot and did recieve many answers I were not able to understand. In hindsight I am laughing about my blindness in those days. But, I guess, in some years I'll have something to laugh about again, when I am looking on my readings from 2004 http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smile.gif although I am asking much less and spend much more time in trying to understand than I did in the nineties.

So indirectly, the Yi is a way to helping oneself to mature, because the more one is able to connect with it, the more satisfying the answers would be. And if the theme of the questions are from any importance to one, s/he would ripen with every single answer s/he is getting, wanting that or not. As such, it is a deeply spiritual tool, and altough it is not definitely a book from the Mahayana Buddhist Canon, its use is encouraged at least in the school of Zen Buddhism I belong to.

Namaste,

Soshin