New online I Ching reading - requests? suggestions?

[hilary]

I'm thinking that this site's free online reading is about ten years overdue for an upgrade. And - hooray! - Ewald Berkers (who created our hexagram search) has the time to build us a new one.

If you have requests or suggestions, now would be a great time to post them. The main things I want are a reading that displays only the relevant text - ie only the lines that are changing, not all the rest - and one that can be saved or printed easily.

What other features and functions are important?

And about the appearance... I'd be happy with one that didn't bother with any animation of rotating coins or stirring marbles or shuffling stalks, but simply showed each line fading into view. What do you think?

Oh, and Ewald is asking me what the button to cast the lines (one line at a time, like on his site's reading (http://eclecticenergies.com/iching/virtualcoins.php)) should look like. I have no idea. Anyone?

Thoughts, comments, requests and suggestions warmly invited!

[bamboo]

I really like that all the lines are shown, not only the ones that are changing. I like your readings page the way it is, far superior imo to those sites where you cast lines one by one, or where you only see the changing lines. gee, do you really think you need to update it? seriously, I cant imagine why! It is one of the few, if not the only, site that doesnt have those other features which just make it more fortune-teller like. I like to be able to see all the lines because sometimes they help one to see the contrast in one's own answer, and also if too many lines change , sometimes the one not changing is most relevant. Dont suppose my objections are going to change your mind much however ; (

[hilary]

Oh! Well, that comes as a surprise. I suppose I was thinking more of relative newcomers, who can quite often end up reading the wrong lines.

Could include a link to the full hexagram text, maybe. Or highlight the relevant lines and have the rest greyed out... or something... or wait and see what other people think...

...or just keep the old version in addition to the new one, of course...

[riurik]

I really like the current version.

On January 4th, 2012 - 21:45 I casted 62 with moving line 2 regarding Hilary's intent to update her online reading software.

For what it worths, I'd say: if there is really a need to update it, make it simplier and only small changes.

[answeredquestions]

Hi Hilary. I have a suggestion but it's pretty sweet the way it is.

Maybe a button at the top of the Home page or a tab that makes it easier to access??

Take care!

[hilary]

That may possibly be the coolest avatar in the history of the Yijing.

OK... will leave a link to the original; will keep it simple (thank you for casting, Riurik, that's a good reading to have) and concentrate on usability.

Does anyone have any feelings at all about visual design?

[anemos]

it would be great that the hex will be constructed in 6 steps and not one as in Ewald's site.

Also it might be handy to be able to print it. If I try to print a reading now as a PDF, I can have only the Hexagram Part and not the texts. Texts are not that important (maybe a copyright issue) but the name or number of hex and maybe a date could be helpful.

[trojan]

I much prefer to have the whole thing in one without the pretence of constructing it line by line....keep it simple...like it is.....

I don't think its a great idea only to show the relevant lines as that would just mean more people heading over to SR who don' t know what a hexgaram or changing line is

[ewald]

Apparently, seasoned I Ching diviners here do appreciate Clarity's free reading. However, I can quite well understand why Hilary wants something different, as there are several usability problems with it:


Beginners need to read the "manual" first, and "learn" to use it. Many people don't have the patience for that on the internet. If it's designed more clearly, with just the relevant text, more people will start to use it. It's not self-explanatory as it is now.
You can't link to a particular reading, to show it to others, on a forum, for instance.
You can't easily save a reading for future reference, like into a journal. If you'd want to copy the consultation text, you'd need to copy two pages of text, and find some way to include the hexagrams. Then, there is a lot of irrelevant text there. This is way too cumbersome for most people.
Some people feel more connected to an online oracle when it's not just one click on a button that produces the results, but six clicks that build the hexagram. It's more of a ritual.
Having two pages in one, with two vertical scrollbars, is a hurdle to many people. Many only use their mouse wheel to scroll up and down, which doesn't work very well with these two framed pages. I haven't tested it, but I think this may be almost impossible to use on a mobile device.

[answeredquestions]

That may possibly be the coolest avatar in the history of the Yijing.

:D Not sure if you are referring to my avatar or not, but if you ARE... You should see the shirt I have with that on it too! I made the design and someone I know put it on a shirt for me. Favorite shirt ever! Those worms, tho we do not want to deal and look at them because they are scary sometimes, we must do it anyways! -18

[pocossin]

A trivial point but I noticed that the text of 51 is entered twice.

[trojan]

I can barely make out AQs avatar. I thought it was a head on a rope. Maybe i need a new computer. I vote Dancing White Ferrets avatar top right now http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=149705&postcount=1

[trojan]

Apparently, seasoned I Ching diviners here do appreciate Clarity's free reading. However, I can quite well understand why Hilary wants something different, as there are several usability problems with it:


Beginners need to read the "manual" first, and "learn" to use it. Many people don't have the patience for that on the internet. If it's designed more clearly, with just the relevant text, more people will start to use it. It's not self-explanatory as it is now. You can't link to a particular reading, to show it to others, on a forum, for instance.
You can't easily save a reading for future reference, like into a journal. If you'd want to copy the consultation text, you'd need to copy two pages of text, and find some way to include the hexagrams. Then, there is a lot of irrelevant text there. This is way too cumbersome for most people.
Some people feel more connected to an online oracle when it's not just one click on a button that produces the results, but six clicks that build the hexagram. It's more of a ritual.
Having two pages in one, with two vertical scrollbars, is a hurdle to many people. Many only use their mouse wheel to scroll up and down, which doesn't work very well with these two framed pages. I haven't tested it, but I think this may be almost impossible to use on a mobile device.


:confused: why does the online casting tool need to be designed especially for people who are too impatient to figure out how to cast a hexagram ? Why is just 'more people using it' a good idea ? Does that make the site more money ? Could mean SR just ends up with more people who don't want to know how to cast a hexagram zipping straight over there to get other people tell them what it means because they really don't have the time to think about it.

If the object is to increase traffic, I get that...its a business afterall...but why consult existing members about it if the aim of the exersize is really just 'more people using it'

Are vertical scroll bars really a 'hurdle' because people can't consult on their mobiles .....do we have to give in to relentless rushing...no time to figure out how to cast a hexagram, no time to interpret....wheres it all going....eh whats all this rushing for Rushing and shortcuts don't exactly aid Yi interpretation do they.

Do we need to link to readings on the forum ? I don't need to see someones reading drawn in lines, they can just write it like this for example 57.6.



That was a rant :D I don't actually feel that strongly about it but if you just want to know how to get more people in whats the point of asking people already here what they want.

I get the sense the 'seasoned users' you refer to aren't the ones you see the need to appeal to....fair enough but why ask them then ?

[riurik]

I must confess :bag: that I had this thought: If I'd like ewald's style, I'd go directly to ewald's site. Maybe just a link to his website would be enough then? :D

[ewald]

it would be great that the hex will be constructed in 6 steps and not one as in Ewald's site.
What do you mean, that it's constructed in one step? It's constructed in 6 steps (http://www.eclecticenergies.com/iching/virtualcoins.php) (and I hadn't seen that elsewhere at the time I was making this).

[ewald]

I must confess :bag: that I had this thought: If I'd like ewald's style, I'd go directly to ewald's site. Maybe just a link to his website would be enough then? :D
I have absolutely no objection to that. ;)
However, I think Hilary wants to have her own I Ching text in the online reading.

[hilary]

:D Not sure if you are referring to my avatar or not, but if you ARE... You should see the shirt I have with that on it too! I made the design and someone I know put it on a shirt for me. Favorite shirt ever! Those worms, tho we do not want to deal and look at them because they are scary sometimes, we must do it anyways! -18
Yes, I do mean your avatar. Good worm. Have you done any other hexagrams?
(I agree, Trojan, the ferret is pretty good, too.)
A trivial point but I noticed that the text of 51 is entered twice.
Ack, see what you mean, will fix that, thanks. (Neat that it happens with a repeated-trigram hexagram.)
:confused: why does the online casting tool need to be designed especially for people who are too impatient to figure out how to cast a hexagram ? Why is just 'more people using it' a good idea ? Does that make the site more money ?
Not particularly, or not directly. Since the online reading is an entry point for a lot of people who go on from there to learn more, if you believe it's a good idea for more people to get to know Yi (which I do, oddly enough), it follows that more people using the online reading is a good idea. And more people finding it usable, intelligible, approachable.

An online casting tool is for people who, for whatever reason, don't want to cast a hexagram. Could be they're absolute beginners not confident enough to do so; could be something else.
Could mean SR just ends up with more people who don't want to know how to cast a hexagram zipping straight over there to get other people tell them what it means because they really don't have the time to think about it.
Or it might not.
If the object is to increase traffic, I get that...its a business afterall...but why consult existing members about it if the aim of the exersize is really just 'more people using it'
Because the aim of the exercise is actually to make a more immediately useful, usable, memorable reading. People here who regularly use the reading might have ideas for what would make their experience better. It would be nice to be able to have someone ask for something and just go ahead and provide it.

Also, I have no clue about visual design at all - no good at visualising things - and I'm aware some people here are naturally visual types.


Do we need to link to readings on the forum ? I don't need to see someones reading drawn in lines, they can just write it like this for example 57.6.
But maybe if you cast your mind far, far back into the mists of history, you will remember there might have been a time when you didn't know what 57.6 said and what it changed to without looking it up.

I hadn't even thought of being able to link to readings, and I love the idea. Click through and read what Yi said, not losing sight of it in what everyone else says. Lots of potential uses. Also, I like that it will make the text, one click away, more easily accessible than the commentary.

I must confess :bag: that I had this thought: If I'd like ewald's style, I'd go directly to ewald's site. Maybe just a link to his website would be enough then? :D
Happily, Ewald is almost certainly capable of designing a page in more than one style. Besides, I already link to his website. :)
What do you mean, that it's constructed in one step? It's constructed in 6 steps (http://www.eclecticenergies.com/iching/virtualcoins.php) (and I hadn't seen that elsewhere at the time I was making this).
She meant that it's constructed in 6 steps on your site and one step here. Parsing issues.
However, I think Hilary wants to have her own I Ching text in the online reading.
She certainly does. (Though with the Legge as a choice, and the option to add others later, remember.)

OK, so so far we have a request for print-ability with a date included - thank you, Anemos. I'm sure that can be done. Don't know about built-in pdf-ability, I imagine that would be considerably more complicated.

Any other requests?

Any suggestions for how it should look? What would you like to click on to cast? Just an old-fashioned button? An image of something?

[ewald]

A PDF with the reading is not that difficult for me to make. It's just slightly more work than a normal webpage.
Including a date is no problem.

[trojan]

Also, I have no clue about visual design at all - no good at visualising things - and I'm
Any suggestions for how it should look? What would you like to click on to cast? Just an old-fashioned button? An image of something?


How about a juggling rat and you click one of the balls the rat is juggling for each line.........:mischief:


....nah its better simple like it is IMO . It may be a bonus here at not being good at viualising because I don't want alot of things spinning about in front of my eyes when i am trying to focus on a question....calm, space, blankness is needed.

One time you asked for ideas about the visual design of the site...ignored all of them and kept it fairly neutral which actually in the end is more user friendly if not so spectacular. I think people can get a bit carried away with visual effects forgetting the actual purpose of it.

However it is updated, even if juggling rats clicked 6 times are included, I hope the 15ish quality is kept

[anemos]

What do you mean, that it's constructed in one step? It's constructed in 6 steps (http://www.eclecticenergies.com/iching/virtualcoins.php) (and I hadn't seen that elsewhere at the time I was making this).

I know :) I use your site for that reason

A PDF with the reading is not that difficult for me to make. It's just slightly more work than a normal webpage.
Including a date is no problem.

When i want to print something from a site and there is no print option I can right-click- choose print and then instead of printer i can choose to print it as a PDF.

I can do it now, at the current screen , but what I get is only two hex.

[ewald]

I see now how I misread your sentence about the number of steps.

So, it's not that you want to have the option on the webpage itself, to save as a PDF, but that it's there on your computer, but doesn't work very well with the current online reading. This problem should be away with the new reading, as it won't be split into 3 frames, but will be on an actual single webpage.

[anemos]

Any suggestions for how it should look? What would you like to click on to cast? Just an old-fashioned button? An image of something?

maybe you could use some elements from the cover of your book.

[anemos]

I see now how I misread your sentence about the number of steps.

So, it's not that you want to have the option on the webpage itself, to save as a PDF, but that it's there on your computer, but doesn't work very well with the current online reading. This problem should be away with the new reading, as it won't be split into 3 frames, but will be on an actual single webpage.

It would be useful to have that option on the webpage tho. One could save their reading in a digital or printed form

[pocossin]

It would be very helpful for beginners who are going to ask for a reading in Shared Readings if the casting program also gave the description of the casting, for example 43.5 > 34.

[ewald]

Ok, I see.
I'm pondering how to make saved readings easy to use. If you save them as PDF's, perhaps there could be some information from the reading in the file name, like the question, or the hexagrams, to make it easier to find something in previously stored readings.

The text would contain your question, the date and time, and of course the text and hexagrams of the reading. Anything else?

[ewald]

Would it also be handy to have entering something like "43.5 > 34" in a field (or two fields), to display the corresponding I Ching text?

[pocossin]

Would it also be handy to have entering something like "43.5 > 34" in a field (or two fields), to display the corresponding I Ching text?

I don't think it would help beginners. Those who go from the casting program to Shared Readings often make mistakes in identifying the moving lines.

[answeredquestions]

Yes, I do mean your avatar. Good worm. Have you done any other hexagrams?
(I agree, Trojan, the ferret is pretty good, too.)




Nope, that's the only one SO FAR! I plan on doing a couple others. The computer image I gave my friend to put on the shirt is attached at the bottom of the post...



Ok, I have another suggestion for the Clarity Reader. Maybe have a clear button so that the next reading seems fresh???

[ewald]

I'll probably separate the pages for casting and for the resulting I Ching text, so that the casting page will always be fresh, as on my website (http://www.eclecticenergies.com/iching/virtualcoins.php). No clear button needed, then.

[answeredquestions]

.

[answeredquestions]

Ewald! I love your website!

[hilary]

Would it also be handy to have entering something like "43.5 > 34" in a field (or two fields), to display the corresponding I Ching text?
I think what you have at http://eclecticenergies.com/iching/lines.php is ideal for people who want to cast separately and look the text up online. If there actually is anyone who wants to do that... it seems an odd thing to do... does that page get any use, do you know?
Ok, I see.
I'm pondering how to make saved readings easy to use. If you save them as PDF's, perhaps there could be some information from the reading in the file name, like the question, or the hexagrams, to make it easier to find something in previously stored readings.

The text would contain your question, the date and time, and of course the text and hexagrams of the reading. Anything else?
Shouldn't think so - remember we are flying low and keeping this simple. I like the idea of information in the file name - 'I Ching' and maybe the question and/or date - how much can you put in before it's too long, though?

Actually what I'd find most useful would be to have the option of copying the whole thing - question, date, texts - to paste it into a journal and keep writing. But that's if I actually used an online reading, which I don't, so don't bother with that unless it's easy.

maybe you could use some elements from the cover of your book.Neat idea, except I don't actually own the design.

[trojan]

Slightly off topic...but almost not...but i was wondering what happened to the I Ching bracelet made of gem stones idea ? Were they ever produced because I seem to remember a photo of one and then after that no more was heard about it ?

[trojan]

if online casting tool is too complex there could always be a link there for the "anytime anyplace anywhere" casting bracelet...except you'd probably need a factory to meet demand

[hilary]

The woman (potentially) making the bracelets seemed to lose interest and stopped responding. Mind you, I was being slow as a wet week, so she can hardly be blamed. I could always have a go at reviving that some time. I use beads in preference to an online method because it's so much quicker and easier, as well as more tangible.

[ewald]

Actually what I'd find most useful would be to have the option of copying the whole thing - question, date, texts - to paste it into a journal and keep writing. But that's if I actually used an online reading, which I don't, so don't bother with that unless it's easy.
This is only easy for Internet Explorer. For other browsers it can be done, but requires some tricks, and can give problems.

[trojan]

The woman (potentially) making the bracelets seemed to lose interest and stopped responding. Mind you, I was being slow as a wet week, so she can hardly be blamed. I could always have a go at reviving that some time. I use beads in preference to an online method because it's so much quicker and easier, as well as more tangible.

well if you do I'll have one

[chingching]

I think if you want to help beginners that on the screen that displays their reading there should be a link to post in the forum and a radio button to choose which forum, shared reading ex.div etc. and when they get to the post page it has the reading text included, and that should include the question they asked.

so then the user should have to type in their question as well, like LiSe's site. By default the subject line of the post should come up in the communities form of annotation, ie. 51.4 > 24

I also like the idea of displaying all the lines, also how LiSe has a line to each lines zhi gua or how through ewald interactive hex forming you can see what each line changes to, helps when looking for steps and fan yao's which anyone who stays in here long enough will eventually become curious about.

[hilary]

This is only easy for Internet Explorer. For other browsers it can be done, but requires some tricks, and can give problems.
Well, then, not to worry.
well if you do I'll have one
OK!
I think if you want to help beginners that on the screen that displays their reading there should be a link to post in the forum and a radio button to choose which forum, shared reading ex.div etc. and when they get to the post page it has the reading text included, and that should include the question they asked.

so then the user should have to type in their question as well, like LiSe's site. By default the subject line of the post should come up in the communities form of annotation, ie. 51.4 > 24

I also like the idea of displaying all the lines, also how LiSe has a line to each lines zhi gua or how through ewald interactive hex forming you can see what each line changes to, helps when looking for steps and fan yao's which anyone who stays in here long enough will eventually become curious about.
These are excellent ideas for closer integration with the forum. I'm going to guess, though, that actually copying the text over to the forum would run into the same problems as my lesser 'copy to clipboard' suggestion. We may have to settle for a link to the 'create new post' page for SR along with advice on what to include.

I think we'll have the new reading displaying only relevant lines, and keep a link somewhere to the old one that displays the lot.

Zhi gua links... don't know. Only if there is some way to do it while still making it hard for people to download the whole of my text for free, which I'd really rather they didn't do...

[ewald]

I would indeed expect some trouble when trying to get text directly from the online reading to the forum.

[rodaki]

I think that most people like what we get used to, and I'm sure people here feel pretty good about the page as it is already . . Having said that, mostly in terms of visual aspects (not that I'm an expert but I know what works for me) I'd suggest keeping all the hexagrams' texts but having them in a unified page to scroll all together in one go. Hexagram symbols could be shown side by side then texts unfold in one column, perhaps with underlined/red the parts that relate to the particular casting. I like to see the hexagram appearing on screen in stages but after a single hit of the button but I like not having to write my question down . .

What else . . uhm, 'help with reading' button could take you straight to the hexagram index and something like 'learn the basics' button replace the current 'help' button. Also, both of these could go on the side of the hexagrams' text or under. I'd personally love also a link to a page listing all online translations but only if there is already a page like that somewhere on Clarity . . Lastly, it'd be nice if a 'New Reading' page is intercepted between readings, since I think that would create a clean slate so to speak, instead of piling reading upon reading -altho that possibly means less frantically made readings (don't we all do them?), which might mean less clicks on the website stats? But perhaps more of those better-thought-out, quality readings . .

That's as much as I can think of, not sure how easy or feasible these would be to implement though, just some things I have thought all this time I've been using the page . .
(oh, and since I didn't have the time to read everything mentioned already, I might be repeating some . .)

[chingching]

maybe next to the line you can just have in text, no link, the name and number of the zhi gua. So they/we can look it up in forum archives or elsewhere on the net, but not have access to your full text. ?

ewald, yeah I gathered it might be too difficult, but actually if you programmed the whole thing as a wordpress plugin it would integrate with forum easily. hilary is this forum wordpress?

[ewald]

The forum is not Wordpress. I think only the Answers blog is.

[trojan]

I think that most people like what we get used to, and I'm sure people here feel pretty good about the page as it is already . . Having said that, mostly in terms of visual aspects (not that I'm an expert but I know what works for me) I'd suggest keeping all the hexagrams' texts but having them in a unified page to scroll all together in one go. Hexagram symbols could be shown side by side then texts unfold in one column, perhaps with underlined/red the parts that relate to the particular casting. I like to see the hexagram appearing on screen in stages but after a single hit of the button but I like not having to write my question down . .

What else . . uhm, 'help with reading' button could take you straight to the hexagram index and something like 'learn the basics' button replace the current 'help' button. Also, both of these could go on the side of the hexagrams' text or under. I'd personally love also a link to a page listing all online translations but only if there is already a page like that somewhere on Clarity . . Lastly, it'd be nice if a 'New Reading' page is intercepted between readings, since I think that would create a clean slate so to speak, instead of piling reading upon reading -altho that possibly means less frantically made readings (don't we all do them?), which might mean less clicks on the website stats? But perhaps more of those better-thought-out, quality readings . .

That's as much as I can think of, not sure how easy or feasible these would be to implement though, just some things I have thought all this time I've been using the page . .
(oh, and since I didn't have the time to read everything mentioned already, I might be repeating some . .)

I'm worried reading through some previous posts that some of us are going to need private coaching to use this modernised system if it gets any more complex...I think i will anyway :mischief:

This, in bold, is a brilliant idea though...and it is important when designing this to actually know how people use SR in conjunction with the online casting facility. You don't see this unless you actually spend some time there.

The hexagram index feature is incredibly useful but I wonder how many newbies can actually find it. If they could link to it immediately they wouldn't need to post so many repetitive questions or very basic questions on SR and then more time could be given to actually sharing readings in SR. Currently a fair amount of time is spent in explaining basics which isn't necessary given all the pre existing info on the site

[hilary]

I wouldn't actually put money on providing more easily-accessible information meaning fewer repetitive questions or less explaining of basics. Most people just like talking to people more than they like looking stuff up. I think you can go to more or less any forum on any topic and find a sticky saying, 'Please use the forum search to check if your question has already been asked!'

But it's still a very good idea anyway.

What we have so far...

Make it useful for experienced people by providing context


Provide links to, or at least mentions of, zhi gua (maybe... still not sure...)
Provide links to online translations (I imagine we can do that - just add a list of links to the text for each hexagram as a whole. Could link to articles about them, too. Oh, and if we link to LiSe then presto, there are your zhi gua links!)
Display all the line texts, not just the changing ones


This last one is tricky, because a big part of making it more user-friendly for beginners is not displaying all the line texts. How to compromise?

Simplest: keep a link to the old reading.

Next simplest: provide links to LiSe (and is there anyone else who has a respectable online translation where you can link directly to each hexagram? bearing in mind that linking to an online Wilhelm/Baynes would not be kind?) so you can click through and read the lot.

More complicated: display all the lines but highlight the ones that are changing and grey out the others, making it completely clear which to read. This would be a big departure from the code Ewald already has, though, so I don't know for sure if I can afford to hire him for long enough to create it...

Making it user-friendly


Have a prominent link to the reading in the main site navigation.
Make it readily printable. Maybe savable as a pdf.
Make it usable on smartphones. Another good point. I don't have one, so I keep forgetting how important this is nowadays.
Allow the user to enter a question and make that appear at the top of the reading results page. But don't make this compulsory.
A clear page between readings - that'll happen automatically, because the reading results are displayed on a new page.
Provide a 'learn the basics' link - yes, good idea. I think "but there is a 'learn' tab!" - but that's too far and too many clicks away. I wonder if it'd be a good idea to try to distill the real essentials down to the contents of a lightbox that would appear over the top of the reading page, so you could close it and go back to your reading...


Forum integration
The idea of something that copies your reading into a 'new thread' page is neat... but not very feasible, sorry. I'm sure Ewald could make it happen, but I seriously doubt I could afford to pay him for it ;) .

So what can we do instead to get the same sort of effect?

Give each reading a unique url so you can post a link to it.

Include at the end of each reading: 'To share your reading with the I Ching Community, go here [link to the Shared Readings 'new thread' page] and explain to people what you were asking about, and post your question, '[copy of question]' and Yi's answer, [62.2 to 32].' (Ewald, I'm guessing this is do-able, writing these things to the page the program generates, am I right?)

Include a direct link to the hexagram index - yes, we thought of that! Great minds think alike, and so do we. It should be possible to have a link directly to the hexagram search results page for your particular reading. (Very handy to have the same person design both...)

And other things...

Cast line by line, or all in one go? Different people have different preferences... well, I shall use my casting vote and go for one line at a time. I think slower is better just in general, and there's something valuable about the experience of watching a hexagram build and starting to relate to the inner trigram before you see the whole hexagram, and also this can be helpful to beginners as a visual reminder that line 1 is the bottom, and hexagrams 'grow'.

Visual appearance
Just two suggestions: something related to the book cover, or animated juggling rats. OK, juggling rats it is. Take your time over that part, Ewald, and send the bill directly to Trojan. (Unless anyone has alternative suggestions for what to click to generate a line?)

[anemos]

Visual appearance
Just two suggestions: something related to the book cover, or animated juggling rats. OK, juggling rats it is. Take your time over that part, Ewald, and send the bill directly to Trojan. (Unless anyone has alternative suggestions for what to click to generate a line?)

The question is how far are you willing to go. Create an "environment" that supports the "ritual" of tossing or something more simpler ?

I liked the feeling of the option with the ball of marbles you had in the past.

as for the tab maybe something like

http://www.songsouponsea.com/Promenade/tabulka.gif


or the http://mojdom.fengshuiformy.com/images/stories/i-ching.gif

or .... the logo of this site ??


$ 50 ... pm-ing to you my pay pal account :D

[trojan]

Just a rat holding a plain button then, that would do. Or you click the buttons on his jacket to get the hexagram.

I was hoping we wouldn't have the one line at a time deal...but I can't complain I suppose as I don't use the online reading for anything of much concern to me...only little trivial questions. I always seem to need to do a hand cast if I really need to know something.

Lately I found the online reading quite fun (and often accurate) for small things I couldn't be bothered shaking coins over.....and now, just as I made friends with it its all changing ! :cloud: huh !

[trojan]

I guess you can't please everyone. I didn't like that ball of marbles...it gave me too much choice and the point of the online cast is that it takes it all wonderfully out of your control so to me all ritual in online casting seems quite superfluous.

Its a whole different thing. No point trying to make one thing into another thing...

If I want ritual I'll make it easily without the computer. The computer can't simulate it for me with bowls of marbles.


still if we have to have it I'll stick with the rat, more authentic

[pocossin]

Another small point, control codes intrude into the text of 64. Also, I wonder about how the hexagrams are selected. Hexagram 2 seems to be much more likely to occur than Hexagram 1. Did Margaret Pearson help with the coding? :)

[hilary]

It's yarrow odds, so you'll see more of 2 as relating hexagram than anything else. And I will go look at 64 as well (having deduplicated 51).

[ewald]

It looks to me that I can do everything Hilary has mentioned in her post.

I could perhaps do a checkbox "display hexagram lines not in the reading as well", and have those line texts still be gray, instead of black, if the checkbox is checked.

The disadvantage of having a Yin-Yang symbol for the casting button, is, that it is not clearly a button. That problem could perhaps be solved by putting a text "Cast" over it.
The first image that anemos posted might have copyright issues. I take it that the normal, black and white, Yin-Yang symbol is in the public domain.

[hilary]

I like the checkbox idea!

Not so keen on the yin/yang symbol for the casting button, though, as it's such a giant anachronism. A plain button would be fine for now - after all, it's easy to change later.

[gato]

i've been experimenting with online casting for quite some time now and what i found out is that yarrow stalks method (like in LiSe's site) is more accurate most of the times.
I never tried yarrow stalks with actual sticks but for me virtual method sometimes is more accurate than traditional coins.

[hilary]

If it's the yarrow odds you're looking for (increased likelihood of yang changing to yin rather than vice versa) then yes - the existing reading has this, and we'll have it in the new one too. I don't know if these odds are more authentic or more accurate, but I'm used to them!

[gato]

no, i'm not talking about statistics , distribution theory or odds, i'm talking about results ( ranging from weather forecast to loto numbers, hard facts which cannot be contradicted )

[hilary]

I understand that, but overall here we're talking about method of casting. Three things differentiate those: physical means used, statistical odds of getting different kinds of line, and the mind of the caster. And since we're talking about an online reading, it's only the odds we can tweak.

[beyond_the_veil]

I know this may sound over the top, but just to be creative wouldn't be cool to have the operation done in a flash setting. Say someone wants to have a reading, they click on a button and it takes them to a scene showing a husband and wife walking up to a hut to meet the village seer. The first brief scene would be a side shot of the two walking through the village. The next would be from behind the couple showing them approaching the hut. Outside of the hut, on each side of the entryway there are a couple of statutes - one dragon and one tiger. The next scene would be of the two walking up to the already seated seer and then sitting down for consultation. Next, you are prompted either option of asking a question by filling out the question slot or just meditate upon the matter and then hit the button for a hexagram. Then the flash would show the seer performing a yarrow stalk rite. As this is being done, your hexagram would show up in an area of the screen being built up from bottom to top. The lines would have a brush-mark look to them. When everything is done, you click a button to take you to your reading. I know this would be impractical, but I just got hit with a creative bug :).

[buzzurro]

I think what you have at http://eclecticenergies.com/iching/lines.php is ideal for people who want to cast separately and look the text up online. If there actually is anyone who wants to do that... it seems an odd thing to do... does that page get any use, do you know?
As a matter of fact I never used this page, but it's very very cool! I should keep in mind, from now on, instead of perusing Ewald's e-book... :rolleyes:
I understand that, but overall here we're talking about method of casting. Three things differentiate those: physical means used, statistical odds of getting different kinds of line, and the mind of the caster. And since we're talking about an online reading, it's only the odds we can tweak.
I remember that when I was an absolute beginner I used to consult a certain online reading (can't remember the site right now! :o) which permits to choose between coins and yarrow odds. Although I hadn't the faintest idea what it meant, it seemed to me a cool feature. Nowadays I could go as far as suggesting three, or maybe even more options (coins, yarrow, marbles, possibly also yarrow with 48 stalks... :D)

Anyway, having clicked the preferred radio button, or accepted the default, then the picture on the 'cast' button would reflect the chosen method: a pretty BIG button with either 3 coins, or a bunch of yarrow...
...ok, not a great idea, but that's what I think...
Warm greetings to all
:bows:

[cris]

My favourite online reading site is Clarity. I would in fact go so far as to say it is my favourite casting method AT ALL. I like it exactly as is - one button pressed, and the reading is done. It's proved to be so accurate in so many cases for me. I wouldn't change it. Is there any chance the current features could be kept, with the addition of alternative options?

Oh, and Ewald - love your site! I like the fact that readings can be cast but also entered in coins, lines and hex numbers. I consult it for every casting I toss, and often find the commentary enlightening.

[hilary]

I know this may sound over the top, but just to be creative wouldn't be cool to have the operation done in a flash setting. Say someone wants to have a reading, they click on a button and it takes them to a scene showing a husband and wife walking up to a hut to meet the village seer. The first brief scene would be a side shot of the two walking through the village. The next would be from behind the couple showing them approaching the hut. Outside of the hut, on each side of the entryway there are a couple of statutes - one dragon and one tiger. The next scene would be of the two walking up to the already seated seer and then sitting down for consultation. Next, you are prompted either option of asking a question by filling out the question slot or just meditate upon the matter and then hit the button for a hexagram. Then the flash would show the seer performing a yarrow stalk rite. As this is being done, your hexagram would show up in an area of the screen being built up from bottom to top. The lines would have a brush-mark look to them. When everything is done, you click a button to take you to your reading. I know this would be impractical, but I just got hit with a creative bug :).
Alas, it would be impractical, but I do like your creative bug. Maybe one day you can get this made yourself... it might go nicely in desktop software, rather than trying to do it in Flash (which doesn't work on smartphones or tablets).
As a matter of fact I never used this page, but it's very very cool! I should keep in mind, from now on, instead of perusing Ewald's e-book... :rolleyes:
Or you could do both...

I remember that when I was an absolute beginner I used to consult a certain online reading (can't remember the site right now! :o) which permits to choose between coins and yarrow odds. Although I hadn't the faintest idea what it meant, it seemed to me a cool feature. Nowadays I could go as far as suggesting three, or maybe even more options (coins, yarrow, marbles, possibly also yarrow with 48 stalks... :D)
And maybe 6 coins, too, where you have 5 coins the same and one different, so you always have one and only one changing line. Or maybe not.

You can get a choice of yarrow or 3 coins chez LiSe (http://yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html)... but then, come to think of it, you'd already know that, wouldn't you? ;)


My favourite online reading site is Clarity. I would in fact go so far as to say it is my favourite casting method AT ALL. I like it exactly as is - one button pressed, and the reading is done. It's proved to be so accurate in so many cases for me. I wouldn't change it. Is there any chance the current features could be kept, with the addition of alternative options?

Oh, and Ewald - love your site! I like the fact that readings can be cast but also entered in coins, lines and hex numbers. I consult it for every casting I toss, and often find the commentary enlightening.
Bamboo said she particularly likes the consultation here 'as is', too. I'll leave it in place just for you :) .

[cris]

Bamboo said she particularly likes the consultation here 'as is', too. I'll leave it in place just for you :) .

How kind of you Hilary :) Thank you!

[buzzurro]

And maybe 6 coins, too, where you have 5 coins the same and one different, so you always have one and only one changing line. Or maybe not.
I'd prefer not, anything that limits the I Ching to less than its natural 'vocabulary' seems bound to reduce its power to communicate. ;)
But maybe someone else might appreciate this feature. Besides, there are also some online readings which apply those rules that reduce multiple changing lines to one after the cast. Another idea that I don't like very much, of course, but in this case I know for sure that some people like it.
You can get a choice of yarrow or 3 coins chez LiSe (http://yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html)... but then, come to think of it, you'd already know that, wouldn't you? ;)
Indeed, that's why LiSe's site has become my favorite online reading! :rofl:

[cris]

My favourite online reading site is Clarity. I would in fact go so far as to say it is my favourite casting method AT ALL. I like it exactly as is - one button pressed, and the reading is done. It's proved to be so accurate in so many cases for me. I wouldn't change it. Is there any chance the current features could be kept, with the addition of alternative options?

Oh, and Ewald - love your site! I like the fact that readings can be cast but also entered in coins, lines and hex numbers. I consult it for every casting I toss, and often find the commentary enlightening.

I forgot to mention another reason why I do like Clarity's free reading facility so much. After pressing the button, it only shows the two hexes - no name, no text, just the two images. Which can be quite suggestive. One can then look at one hex at a time, letting the info settle before moving to the rest of the casting, and also go through the whole commentary to put the specific changing lines into perspective.

And yes I do like a bit of suspense :)

[hilary]

Interesting! I'd never thought of anyone using it that way... I suppose because I recognise hexagrams as I go along these days. Maybe that's why I like casting one line at a time, for a bit of suspense. (Though it's weird how often you can see the first two or three lines and know what you're getting, isn't it?)

We're almost there, I think - at least, that's how it looks to me, though Ewald is a perfectionist and probably sees things differently.

[buzzurro]

Interesting! I'd never thought of anyone using it that way... I suppose because I recognise hexagrams as I go along these days. Maybe that's why I like casting one line at a time, for a bit of suspense. (Though it's weird how often you can see the first two or three lines and know what you're getting, isn't it?)
The first time it happened to me it was more of a shock than just weird... :eek:
I wasn't prepared to witness that, contrary to what I was inclined to believe (along with Balkin, among others), hexagrams are not the result of a purely random process... so I spent the whole night awake, and from then on I try as hard as I can not to guess the hexagram until it's complete...
We're almost there, I think - at least, that's how it looks to me, though Ewald is a perfectionist and probably sees things differently.
Well, so I guess you've already decided what the 'cast' button will look like. Otherwise I was thinking of another possible suggestion, but I'm confident I'll be pleasantly surprised by your choice, and can't wait to see it and give it a try!
:bows:

[hilary]

Well, so I guess you've already decided what the 'cast' button will look like. Otherwise I was thinking of another possible suggestion, but I'm confident I'll be pleasantly surprised by your choice, and can't wait to see it and give it a try!
:bows:
No, no, we haven't decided that at all! When I say 'almost there' I mean the functions, not the appearance. Currently the 'cast' button is a little rectangular button with 'Cast' on it. Believe me, suggestions would be most welcome!

[buzzurro]

Sorry for the delay, I'm going through one of those terribly hasty phases at work... :brickwall:
Well, I think it could be a rather original idea to let users click on the image of a diviner, someone depicted in the act of sorting yarrow, tossing coins, or something... this could be one of those drawings in ancient Chinese style, possibly performing some preparatory ritual, or sacrifice, instead of casting the hexagram... or it could be some non-human character, like the rat proposed by Trojan, or a dragon, a mare... I've also imagined it could be a photograph, although I don't believe it would be the best choice... the basic idea is just to show some person, or other sentient being, that casts the hexagram on behalf of the users...

[anemos]

I like that idea.

I have a ready image in my mind but need to find a way to solve a specific problem. it is a kind of sumi-e painting ( just black ink) but not sure if I use colors too.

The painting is not ready yet but the theme is the title of Hilary's book. ( under the threshold advertising)

[trojan]

Maybe we could have a choice of whether we have to look at the whole imagery thing or whether we want to do our cast in a quiet empty room

the thing is going to use the online tool is, in a way, a private space. On other sites I always felt intruded upon with other peoples loud 'wallpaper' and unecessary animations and ideas about the right atmosphere.

so there could be 2 consulting rooms...one for people who want to have other peoples imagery splashed on them and an empty one for people who don't ?



too much work I imagine since i spose it doesn't matter much

[hilary]

I'm in favour of quietness, in general. There's a fine line between 'quiet' and 'has about as much character as an income tax return', however. I'll aim for 'quiet'.

[peterg]

I notice that yarrow odds are used to cast the lines. So how are they generated ? Is it by yarrow simulation or by 16 token ? At the extreme end of the yarrow splits, 2 or 3 of the splits dont compute. No big deal with manual casting but it might be with computer generated casts.

[peterg]

The yarrow odds we are familiar with , 1357 / 16 , are good enough for practical everyday purposes , since we rarely choose splits at the extreme end of the scale. But they are not real life.They are an approximation.

They would not be good enough for statistical analysis of long cast runs , esp. computer runs. For that , some fine tuning of the odds would be needed. Its a case of the butterfly effect. A small change at the beginning producing a big change further down the line.

If you include the splits 49 + 0 , and 0 + 49 , there are 50 splits. But they allow you to rig the result to some extent , so we can exclude them.
That leaves 48 splits.To get the familiar odds they would need to produce 36 x 5 , and 12 x 9.In actual fact they produce 37 x 5 and 11 x 9.Thats odds of 37 / 48 for a 5 , and 11 / 48 for a 9.

Similar for the second and third operations.
For eg if the first operation was a 5 , that leaves 44 sticks.The assumed odds are 1 / 2 ( equal amounts of 4 and 8 ).
The actual odds of producing a 4 are 22 / 43. And 21 / 43 for an 8.
If the first operation was a 9 , leaving 40 sticks , the actual odds are 20 / 39 for 4 , and 19 / 39 for 8.
Something similar for the third operation.
By multiplying the fractions we can get the actual odds for each line.

The familiar 1357 / 16 yields 6.25 % , 18.75 % , 31.25 % , 43.75 % for the four kinds of lines.
Andrew Kennedy in Briefing Leaders did a study of this problem using long computer generated cast runs.
Using revised odds qiuite similar to those above produced figures of 5.17 % , 21.11 % , 28.87 % , and 44.83 % for the four kinds of lines.
I use a different method than him to calculate the fractions above and get slightly different fractions , but he claims accuracy to within 0.1 % is possible.

Its a statistical analysis problem. Nothing to worry about in regard to everday casting.
But it is a loose end in yarrow casting.
Thats why I am interested in how the lines are generated.

[hilary]

This is a good question I'm not qualified to answer - I will tell Ewald there's a post here that's for him!

But I agree that it's not something to worry about in everyday casting - or any casting, as I see it. The oracle has a way of working anyway.

[ewald]

I notice that yarrow odds are used to cast the lines. So how are they generated ? Is it by yarrow simulation or by 16 token ? At the extreme end of the yarrow splits, 2 or 3 of the splits dont compute. No big deal with manual casting but it might be with computer generated casts.
I'm making this with the 16 token method, as that's what Hilary requested.

[hilary]

Here you go:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/free_I_Ching_reading/#cast

Those who wanted to stick with the old version will find it's still where it was, unchanged.

[hilary]

Trojan, if you try the new reading and have a look at what it says at the foot of the page, you'll see that linking to the pdf-generating script and posting a poll are both Lilith's idea and nothing to do with the reading script. The footer actually suggests starting a thread with your question and reading (both of which it cites there for handy copying and pasting). It's also possible to link to a reading directly by copying its url from the address bar, but Ewald, probably wisely, didn't try to offer instructions for that.

[hilary]

I also need to go and lie down. My world is shaken to its foundations.

[sheilaca]

I'm new here, but I can tell you that I like hitting the button once for each line. For me, it seems to take me deeper into the question. Hitting just once and getting the reading would not give that extra time to feel the deepening concentration.