Hi..new to this...please help??

[rosetattoo]

Just found this site...fascinating! Asked a question but can't really understand the answer..can you shed some light please?
Question was..."what is the current situation between me and my ex." Answer as follows:
primary...30, changing lines 2 and 5
relating...3, changing lines 1, 3, 4 and 5.
I hope I have included the correct information.
Thanks!

[peter]

Hi!
Yes, this site is one of the best on I Ching [Hilary! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif ].
Say, what is 'ex'? Sorry, English is not my native language, I know it not very good.
Your information is strange... Did you divine in 'free readings'? So you should receive primary 30 - relating 1 (30 with changing lines 2 and 5 become 1), or primary 3 - relating 62 (3 with changing lines 1, 3, 4 and 5 become 62). I hope you wrote down your answer.

Regards,

Peter

[rosetattoo]

Hi Peter..."ex" means ex boyfriend....yes, I divined in free readings....what other information should I include here regarding the reading, and will someone interpret it for me?
Thanks

[peter]

Oh, I'll try to interpret, but... Your result is really strange, believe. I think you misunderstood something, so I'll explain:
a) primary hexagram is the hexagram on the left, and it can have changing lines, marked with red colour. Yin (broken) transforms into yang (solid), and vice versa;
b) relating hexagram is one on the right, and it _cannot_ have red (changing) lines.
That's why I was astonished (and still am). Maybe you consulted 2 times?
So try to remember, what did you receive at first time (if you have not written it down).

Regards,

Peter

[rosetattoo]

Hi again...ok, maybe I didn't explain it properly? What I meant by changing lines were broken lines, so when I referred to changing lines in my first post, those were the lines that were broken, not solid. Meaning, in the primary section, the broken lines were lines 2 and 5. In the relating section, the broken lines were 1, 3, 4 and 5.

The numbers were 30.4...Clinging/fire
3...Chun. Does this help in any way? Please let me know.

Thanks

[peter]

Aha! Okay, that's enough, but two moments for futher readings: firstly, lines in I Ching are counted from bottom to top (Chinese habit), so for 'Chun' broken lines are 2, 3, 4 and 6 (6 is also 'top', as you can see in most places); and 'moving' lines are red lines, and in your case they were 3, 4, 5 and 6 (top), while 1 and 2 were black.
So, let's look what it means... I'll use a method that doesn't involve textual part of I Ching (moreover there are too many moving lines here).
In present situation you're Fire (lower three lines form 'Fire' trigram), and your ex is also Fire (the same trigram on top, made of three top lines). Your situation with him is very good, but! now is the month of Earth, and in Chinese metaphysics Earth exhausts Fire, so both you and he are in not very good condition - you spend your energy on some 'Earth' affairs, so your relations seem to be cold (if you're worrying about them, they're not hot or warm, eh? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif )
Then look on developing of this situation... In nuclear hexagram, used in this method, we see Metal and Wood. Wood is in your position, and Metal is in his, and it is favourable for romantic relations. Maybe it will happen after a month (judging on numbers, received from primary hexagram).
And finally, we have Wood at bottom and Water on top. Wood continues to nourish Fire, while Water tends to suppress it, but - Wood is a mediator between Water and Fire, so there will be no supressing, I believe...
So, in this humple attempt to interpret your result I can't see anything extremely bad. I think it is a pause in your relations, caused by 'outer' life. Is it really so, how do you feel?

Regards,

Peter

P.S. Maybe here there are too many specific terms with that you're not familiar. Don't worry, read conclusions. I included those reasonings while it is a public forum and someone may be interested in backgrounds.

[rosetattoo]

Thank you for your interpretation. Yes, you are correct, there is definately a "pause" at the moment, and I am truly hoping that it is just that, a "pause" and not a "conclusion" of the relationship. Does the i-ching actually predict future outcomes, and are they subject to change? Is this system more accurate than tarot cards? I actually have a book on i-ching which was made in 1968, but I don't have any sticks. Can I use something else as a substitute for the sticks?
Thanks again!

[dharma]

"Does the i-ching actually predict future outcomes, and are they subject to change?"

The future is always subject to change depending on how we exercise our free-wills. Divination allows us to see the path we are treading and the option to change course if we do not like where we are heading.

"Is this system more accurate than tarot cards?"

All systems are only as good as the person doing the divination. The more centered and focused the better the reading will be no matter what system is used.

"Can I use something else as a substitute for the sticks?"

Yes, there are special I Ching coins you can purchase to cast your lines with, however, you may use any three coins and achieve the same results. If you use 3 pennies, assign a value of 3 to one side and a value of 2 to the other.

Example: Heads=3, Tails=2. Concentrate on your question, throw the coins and add up the values. Heads, Heads, Tails becomes 3+3+2=8 --you have a broken, unchanging line.

A value of 6 = a broken, changing line --.
A value of 7 = a solid, unchanging line -
A value of 8 = a broken, unchanging line --
A value of 9 = a solid, changing line -.

Hope this helps,
Dharma http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

[rosetattoo]

Thanks Dharma....now I just have to figure out how to correctly interpret the answers! How often should one consult the i-ching?
Thanks

[dharma]

I'm certain that everyone has an opinion on this question based on personal experience. If you ask me, I'd say that you can consult the I Ching as often as you feel inclined to. However, I would suggest you take the time to make sense of the hexagrams that come up for any given question before you cast the coins again on the same issue.

If you 'phrase' your question clearly (writing it down will help the process) and concentrate on it at the exclusion of everything else as you cast the hexagrams, you are more likely to get a clear and coherent response and are not as likely to want to consult the I Ching again for the same question. The rest comes with time, patience and experience.

Enjoy the process--I personally like to imagine talking with a good friend when I work with it. When the I Ching and I don't seem to be on the same wavelength http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/strange.gif I tend to consult my other friends (Tarot, Astrology etc.) in the same way as I would my human friends. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zen.gif

Dharma http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

[rosetattoo]

Thanks Dharma...I also do tarot and astrology, but am not that good at interpretation, I guess. Or maybe because I don't get the answers I'm looking for!!

[dharma]

Getting out of our own way can sometimes be the hardest thing!! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/ugh.gif However, being AWARE that we may be doing this allows us to either consciously step back and take a more objective view or decide that we're too emotionally involved to do a good job and ask someone else, more impartial, to do the job for us.

Ask others when the situation you are dealing with is vital or serious but try and rely more on yourself for everyday issues to sharpen your skills and get enough practice even if the results are lame and pathetic. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif One day you'll find that all your practice was indeed worth the effort -- just wait and see.

Dharma http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

[rosetattoo]

Well, here we go again,,,lol...been playing around with the coins and my book all day, and here's a question...when the primary reading shows success, good stuff, etc...and the 2nd one (when changing lines have been reversed)seems to show something opposite, how do you interpret this? By the same token, when primary shows negative results, and 2nd shows positive...? Does it mean things will start off one way and then end another way? I'll get this within time...please bear with me!
Thanks again

[dharma]

According to Hilary (the following is extracted from a recent response she wrote to someone else) this is how she works with the hexagrams. I personally find it helpful to read them in this way as well.

"I tend to see the second hexagram as the ?relating? one (a term I picked up from Stephen Karcher), representing the way the questioner relates to the question, or responds to the situation, or what s/he hopes for from it, etc. And the first hexagram as a more direct and objective depiction of the situation. Then the most immediate answer to the question comes from seeing the situation through the ?lens? of the second hexagram, almost, and getting the moving lines."

I suggest you read some of the readings that Hilary (and others) do for others at this site. You can pick up a lot this way. In the meantime, I hope this helps.

Dharma http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[rosetattoo]

Thanks again, Dharma...I'll have a look at the other readings, as you suggested.

[rosetattoo]

Well, here we go again! I have spent ages trying to study the meanings of answers, read the message board till I'm cross-eyed, pored thru my book till its worn (lol) and still can't quite interpret well. I guess it takes years of practice, and maybe lots of intuition. Kudos to you guys who have mastered this science!!
Asking for interpretations again, if you don't mind.
Question: Will G. ever come back to me?
Answer: 7, change at the bottom line, relating: 19

(could "army" mean he is still on the defensive concerning me?)

Question: Is he serious about his new gf?
Answer: 38, change in 2nd place, relating: 21.

Any help interpreting this would be appreciated!
Thanks again!

[chinuajin]

Hi, Rosetattoo http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

One problem with your two most recent castings is, perhaps, caused by the form of your Questions... both are asking for a yes/no response. The "I" is never good at such a simplistic answer, and will invariably go on at great lenghts to expand such questions, giving you the 'milieu' of the situation, rather than a yes/no response. Yes/no questions are in the realm of Fortune-Telling, rather than the insightful Divination and Advice that the "I" wants to give you.

If you had asked for clarification on the _Situation_ between you, G., and his new g.f., you would have only have needed one casting... possibly asking a second something like "How should I procede to get G. back?"

Having your question clearly in your mind is the single most important aspect of working with the I Ching. Very much like a Computer, the "I" can only work on the question you give it, but unlike a computer, its answers are _never_ unambiguous!

I was lucky, I suppose, that I learned to cast the I Ching through the stalk method first. I find that, if I know I'm going to spend 15-20 mins. just building the Primary Hexagram (let alone the hour or longer it takes to interpret and internalise the answer), I'm going to be _very_ clear on the question I'm asking, before I start!

Just as an excercise, I'm going to interpret your 7 > 19 question as if you had asked "What is the Situation between myself, G., and his new g.f.?" I'm not sure what will happen, as the process is a bit bass-ackwards... but we'll see http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

I'll post my Interp. in a bit...

Chinuajin

[rosetattoo]

Thanks for the insight and tips, I'm still quite the newbie at this, but I am finding it extremely fascinating. Actually, if you scroll up to my first posting (when I really had no clue what I was doing...) you will notice that I at least worded the question correctly, namely, "what is the current situation between me and my ex."
On looking back at the answer, what I received was actually 30, no changing lines. So I am guessing that the attempt at interpretation by the kind Peter was probably not accurate, as I didn't give him proper info!!
I'll be looking forward to your response!
Thanks!

[chinuajin]

Dear Rosetattoo,

As often happens, the "I" seems to be admonishing you in its Use. (It often does this... with new Students, as here, it's being very gentle. After the years I've consulted it, I sometimes get b**ch-slapped for asking poorly-worded questions.)

The "I" is not an easy Master... but it _is_ very forgiving. In your 7 > 19 casting, both hexagrams admonish you to organise your thoughts, and not to rush ahead, looking for an early Harvest.

The changing line is interesting, as it admonishes you not to throw out all the rules (in this case, forming your question properly).

The Hexagram built from the Nuclear Trigrams (24) is quite auspicious, though. The Light rising through the Dark is very positive! In this case, I interpret it to mean that, as a new Student, your knowledge will grow, as you work at it.

All told, though you didn't get an answer to your question, you _do_ seem to have received some direct advice from the "I" about itself. This is not uncommon, when there are more pressing concerns.

Sorry that I couldn't have been more helpful...

Chinuajin

[rosetattoo]

I'll be going to the bookstore tomorrow, can you suggest any publications on "I-ching 101" or "I-ching written in layman's terms?" lol....I'm finding its too easy to get double or triple meanings out of readings...Also, what do you feel is more accurate, the readings on this site or readings done at home with coins?
Thanks

[chinuajin]

Hmmm... I'm just now updating my Library with some newer publications.

I'm really enjoying Steve Karcher's "I Ching (An Introductory Guide to Working with the Chinese Oracle of Change" (ISBN 1-86204-763-4)
Nothing really Poetic about it (which I love in the Wilhelm/Baynes Edition, but can prove daunting to many). It's clear, concise, and seems to phrase things to a more modern audience.

Blofeld's Edition was what I started with, as a kid, before I found the Wilhelm/Baynes version for Sale... I still use it, as an adjunct to Wilhelm, and it's the first text I suggest that anyone get (though Karcher is challenging Blofeld very stongly, IMHO).

Along with Karcher, I also picked up Shaughnessy's "I Ching... the Classic of Changes" ISBN 0-345-42112-4. I don't really suggest this for a new Student, as it's more of an Archeological Wonder than a Useable Text. It's very fragmented, and also arranged in the "Elder Heaven Sequence" (which means you have to sort out which Hexagrams are which when you're contemplating/comparing editions. Fascinating reading, but NOT for newbies, or the faint-of-heart.

Blofeld and Karcher are about as clear as they come. There are also some good "I Ching Journals" out there, that attempt to help you learn from your own experience.

Learning from the "I" is really a journey of self-awareness. Books can help a lot, but it really comes down to listening with your eyes wide-shut. It takes time, and persistence, and an overall sense of calm acceptance. Something to what Tolkien called "The Willing Suspension of Disbelief".

Sorry I couldn't give a better Bibliography, but I'm just now starting to read more "contemporary" works (and trying to avoid the New-Agey "Ten-Minute Guides" and such.

When you are ready to Learn, the Teacher will appear. Different translations grok with different folk. I'm a bit of the Bibliophile, so my notions are pretty wide-flung.

Whose translations/interpretations have you been attuned with, so far?

Chinuajin

[chinuajin]

Oh... I've never tried a reading here, as I don't see the need, or to tie up Hilary's time with the rest.

The coins work fine, I suppose... but, on important stuff, I always divide the stalks.

I've just made myself a worry-bead 16-marble string, and am finding it very useful (almost exactly the same odds as the stalks, and even quicker than the coins!) (But be careful that a "quick" method of casting doesn't lead you into not contemplating your question sufficiently beforehand!)

I really doubt that the method of casting matters much... it's more a matter of how deeply you're ready to interpret the Results.

I have the Princeton University Press' Interactive "I Ching" on CD-ROM. Very nice, complete Wilhelm/Baynes Edition, plus the "Eight Lectures on the I Ching". Nice Graphics, neat Music, and quite submersive. Sadly, it's out-of-print (I hope they plan to re-release it, with updated graphics drivers for True-Color (as it is, you need to set your machine up for the older 256-color Mode :/

But, all told, I will always be a big proponent of the stalk method. It gives you the space to meditate properly, which is far more than half the battle.

Chinuajin

[rosetattoo]

Thanks for all your info. I couldn't go to the bookstore today, my car was making strange noises...didn't want to take a chance. But I definately must get a better book. I have a lot of trouble when trying to relate the second hexagram to the first. Also I find some wordings contradictory..for example, I just rec'd the following reading: 25>8, changing lines 1.4 and 6.
Top and bottom lines gave the opposite message! Now how do you interpret this? One line suggests to do something would bring success, while the other says it will bring misfortune!! Also, when you do a reading, if there is another person involved, is the reading directed at the querent, or the other person? I know you will probably say that it is how you interpret it, but I still find it very confusing to understand exactly what is being said to me.

[rosetattoo]

Oh, by the way...how often should you consult the i-ching to be assured of accurate responses?
Thanks

[rosetattoo]

another question, sorry...what is the significance of north, east, south, west> ie: you will lose friends in the south, but gain in the north...etc?
Please bear with me!

[hilary]

Dear Rosetattoo,

Thank you for all the questions! (I mean it - I'm in the middle of writing an I Ching email course, and I need suggestions!)

Let's see how far I get...

"can you suggest any publications on "I-ching 101" or "I-ching written in layman's terms?" lol....I'm finding its too easy to get double or triple meanings out of readings..."

I enjoy Stephen Karcher's, also. If you are finding all the imagery a bit much, try Sarah Dening's Everyday I Ching as a supplement to your main translation. It's a commentary, not a translation, but it is full of very good sense. Ah yes - and might I suggest you go
to my recommended books page (http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/html/recommended_books.html) to buy these things? Not only do you not need to trouble your car, but you get Amazon's discounts and they pay me a commission! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

The double and triple meanings - all part of the fun! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif. Often the I Ching does say more than one thing with one image.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Also, what do you feel is more accurate, the readings on this site or readings done at home with coins?"

By 'reading on this site' I imagine you mean the free online reading? For myself, I feel they're equally accurate - that what makes the difference is not the method used but your own state of mind. If you're like me, you'll find it easier to connect with something tangible, like beads or coins. Plus the online reading only has the choice of Wilhlem or Legge, which are not the easiest to relate to!

The other thing that makes a large difference to the clarity of the answer is the clarity of the question. If you're contemplating a choice and ask for general advice, and the I Ching says that going forward is a wonderful idea, you're liable to be left wondering which option might count as going forward. Solution - ask a question as specific as the answer you want, such as 'What if I did y?' or even 'What would be the effect on x if I did y?'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next!
"I have a lot of trouble when trying to relate the second hexagram to the first"
Don't we all! Maybe it would help to do things in a different order - to start by relating the second hexagram to yourself and what lies behind your question, and the first one to the more objective situation. Bring real life in earlier on, in other words, and then you?ll be interpreting the hexagrams and the situation in tandem. Just keep experimenting!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Also I find some wordings contradictory..for example, I just rec'd the following reading: 25>8, changing lines 1.4 and 6.
Top and bottom lines gave the opposite message! Now how do you interpret this? One line suggests to do something would bring success, while the other says it will bring misfortune!!"

Hm - some people would give you rules on which of the two lines to read and which to ignore. Alfred Huang's book has a system for this.

This particular answer is a beautifully difficult one - thank you for that, just what I needed? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif. Usually there is some clue in the lines as to what makes the difference, but not this time!

OK - a lot depends on what the question was. The lines read as a sequence: at the beginning it is good to go forward, at the moment of putting things into practice all will be in harmony, but if you push things too far when you should be staying unentangled, any action leaves you in a mess. Could this be a sequence in time? Or about your own degrees of involvement?

Hexagram 8 suggests strong personal involvement, Seeking Union, making choices about where you belong, asking yourself soul-searching questions, feeling the need to act and take responsibility. Hexagram 25 is about a somewhat Taoist state of detachment, not being caught up in personal fears or desires, but moving in harmony with the time and with objective reality. (Actually, rather like what Dharma calls ?getting out of your own way?!) You can see the relation between the two hexagrams here - quite a conflict - so it?s perhaps not surprising that there is conflict between the lines! Maybe the message is just ?so far, yes, because of your need to decide, but not too far, because you need to stay clear?. Of course, I quite literally don?t know what I?m talking about, which leaves this rather vague - sorry!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

?Also, when you do a reading, if there is another person involved, is the reading directed at the querent, or the other person? I know you will probably say that it is how you interpret it, but I still find it very confusing to understand exactly what is being said to me.?

This is where the way you phrase your question is acutely important. You decide in advance what the answer is going to be about, and stick to this. (?How can I help him?? ?How does he feel about x?? ?What is his mental picture of x, how does he see it?? - etc.) Potential sources of almighty muddle abound: if I see a picture of someone else?s inner state, will I be able to interpret it? Should I expect to be able to? If I want to know what they will do or decide, the I Ching can only show tendencies and likelihoods at best, since there is the small matter of free will involved! And on top of all that: if I?m asking the wrong question, the I Ching will very likely tell me so. I need to be on the alert to the possibility that once in a blue moon, my very-carefully-phrased question will be bypassed completely in order to tell me what I really need to hear.

IOW, yes it is muddling. There are ways to limit this, chiefly through care with your question, but probably Hexagram 25 has the best advice!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

?Oh, by the way...how often should you consult the i-ching to be assured of accurate responses??
It?s a safe bet that the responses are accurate, unless someone is just playing around and clicking the button repeatedly to try to find an answer they like. (Or tossing the coins, etc - but in practice the quicker the method, the greater the risk of this.) The question is more ?how many answers can you absorb and digest at once?? There is so much to be understood in even one reading, it can take weeks (or years?) for me to grow into an answer. And fitting a series of answers around a subject together - when it gets up to five or six related answers (as it does when I do Sharedlight readings for someone for a week), this really is a serious interpretative workout! (Any more than that, I think my head would explode?)

Actually, the I Ching has its own ways of warning that you are approaching information overload, or not making best use of what you?re learning. Hexagram 4 is the famous one, but I?ve also encountered Hexagram 40 (if the path looks right, take it - let go, decide?) and pointed use of lines of #48.

Ah - looking back up the page, I find Dharma has already said all this, and much better!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

?another question, sorry...what is the significance of north, east, south, west> ie: you will lose friends in the south, but gain in the north...etc??

Like I said, these are good questions! I hope this long, waffly answer is making sense for you.
About points of the compass? there are a couple or three ways of looking at these. Thanks to feng shui, there are lots of associations between compass points, trigrams, colours, activities, etc. The north is dark, cold, wintery, lonely, mountainous? the south is hot, summery, active?
Then there are the (probably) older associations with the journey the Zhou (/Chou) made to overthrow their predecessors, the Shang. There are quite a few traces in the oldest I Ching texts, the Zhouyi (?changes of Zhou?), of this story, so it seems reasonable that the directions might also have to do with their experiences. Basically, the Shang territories were to the NE, the Zhou to the SW. So they had to go NE, crossing rivers and mountains, to make conquests and fulfil their destiny, but friends and allies were found in the SW.

Phew. Any more questions? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif

[dharma]

I would like to add something here that I believe will help many, beginners and advanced alike, as they go about consulting oracles. Please read through to the end even if at first it doesn't seem to apply to your method of divination. The 'essay' focuses on Tarot but the content is relevant to whatever form of divination you are using.

As we've mentioned many times before, the clarity of the question is so very important to the results and so the 'essay' that I offer here today will make perfectly clear why this is so.

Hilary, I imagine that this is something that you can use in some way in the putting together of your course. Unfortunately, I do not recall the webpage that I copied it from so very long ago. I, therefore, cannot credit the actual author. Here it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Questions are often structured in the tarot through a spread, or layout. This is a symbolic pattern of positions, each with a given meaning. A card-symbol is selected for each of these positions and interpreted in relation to the assigned meaning of the position. Individual spreads lend themselves to different questions.

A spread is like a map. It is a preplanned structure that the seemingly random, but synchronious events, can fall. The maps can be very defined or very rough. An analogy is if one considers the position of Greenville SC to Atlanta GA. The "mapping" between the two can be at these possible levels:

. They exist (this is a very valid starting point!)

. They exist in this dimension

. They exist on planet Earth

. They exist in the United States

. They exist in the Southeastern part of the United States

. Greenville is north of Atlanta

. They are both located on HWY 85

. ~ and so on

The more defined the spread, the more specific the answer will be. The drawback of a very specific spread is that the universe does not like to be pigeonholed. The right question and the right spread is important. Spirit, however, may or may not cooperate fully with the intended "map", and if other information is supplied, the answer will make no sense if plugged into a question with the supplied "map".

Why will Spirit seem to not cooperate? There are a variety of ways to get a "wrong" or non-understandable answer.

~The question is not important compared to something else going on in the querent?s life. The analogy is that the querent is asking what color shoes they are wearing while a truck bears down on them.

~~The answer seems wrong, but the person is just not open to hearing the reply. The querent wants to hear another answer.

~~The parameters of the question were too largely defined, and it is not know what question or person the cards are referring to.

~~The parameters of the question were too small, and the answer is bigger than the box provided.

~~Multiple questions were asked, and multiple answers are given. Confusion results.

~~The question has been asked many times, and Spirit is just tired of answering. Another tact is being tried by the spiritual guides/soul, and we haven?t figured it out yet.

~~And there are more. This is only a sampling. Practice and being open to the voice of the divine are the paths through these difficulties.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As I said, Tarot is the focus here but with a little imagination and effort one can make the leap to other types and forms divination.

BTW, Hilary, I absolutely loved your addition to the "Playing Small..." page. It's exactly what I had in mind. Thanks!
Dharma http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[rosetattoo]

Whew, what a lot of reading...but wonderful nonetheless. I use to be an avid Tarot fan, but my interest is changing quickly!! Thanks so much for your time and advice.
Ok, now maybe you can help me with this one...If you read back to my first message, you no doubt are aware that I have an "ex bf". I just did a reading here, and asked "what will be the outcome if I continue to hope for a reunion with G.?"
Response: 8 > 58 , change at bottom, 2 and 4.
Hilary, I really need some help with this, as I'm not sure if I phrased the question correctly. Is the response referring to the "hope" or the actual "reunion"?
I'll get this one of these days!
Thanks so much

[rosetattoo]

btw...I will definately look into ordering that book...does Amazon have a Cdn site? If not, it's ok, I order from the US (the exchange rate is a killer, though!)

[dharma]

Hi Rosetattoo http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif,

You asked: "I just did a reading here, and asked "what will be the outcome if I continue to hope for a reunion with G.?" Is the response referring to the "hope" or the actual "reunion"?"


You are "hoping for a reunion" -- therefore another way to say this would be "In the context of passively waiting (hoping) will this thing (reunion) occur?" The question is complete and unambiguous. Under ONE condition you anticipate ONE action so there is no duality or conflict in your question. The response is taking both into account. Hope this helps.

I'll let someone else more qualified "read" the hexagrams themselves. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

As far as the book goes...if you run into difficulties ordering from Amazon and/or money is an issue, just go to your local bookstore and have them order the book for you if they don't already have it in stock.

Dharma

[rosetattoo]

Thanks Dharma...I'll bring the titles to my bookstore....just thought I could have "sent" Hilary some of the commission by ordering through Amazon. I'll wait for someone to interpret my reading for me! Thanks!

[rosetattoo]

Hi all..just wondering if my reading will be interpreted soon?
Thanks

[hilary]

Hi Rosetattoo,

Another very good question http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

And again, you're probably not the only one asking it, as I've been chasing my tail in ever-decreasing circles of late: set up new survey, write book review, write article, set up new forum pages, publish newsletters, try with slight desperation to find time to research and write I Ching email course - ah yes, and look after paying customers (plug, hint, hint, plug... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif).

In other words, I'm sorry if you felt forgotten. You're not!

ACtually, this reading is a real puzzler. At least, I?m puzzled. I?ve been quickly scanning through the other readings you?ve done so far, and they don?t really seem very hopeful http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/sad.gif . (Sorry!) The meeting with the new girlfriend sounds like a positive connection (possibly casual, but that could just mean serendipitous); the current situation between you and him (assuming it really was 30 on the left under ?primary hexagram?, 3 on the right under ?relating???) sounds complex but substantially miserable for you.

And then comes this one - very bright and enthusiastic, especially the relating hexagram. 58 ?communicates joy?, it is bright and sparkling, a free and open exchange between people that all enjoy. After a long think, I?ve a feeling this is the image of your hope: both what?s in your own mind, maybe behind this question, and also what you?d be communicating to G. 58 is above all optimistic: it doesn?t close off any possibilities or any communication channels, and by keeping the atmosphere bright and bustling, it lets people forget the grimmer things in life.

Actually, I think the first hexagram is also less about the likely outcome, more about what you would be doing: ?Seeking Union? sounds like exactly that, don?t you think? You want someone to join and belong with, a natural harmony of minds; you?re bringing your native optimism to bear on this - and perhaps ensuring that G knows that you are still looking?

?Seeking union, good fortune.
Retrace the consultation to its source, fundamental, ever-flowing constancy. Not a mistake.
Not at rest, coming on all sides.
The one who?s late, misfortune.?
This really does give the impression of a quest: the message is that it is good to be seeking and asking questions, ready to join with someone, feeling the sense of urgency and pressure. Certainly it is better than dithering.

There is one other aspect of Hexagram 8 that?s worth considering, though. Like Chinuajin says, the I Ching does have the habit of giving out lessons in oracle-consultation (and not at our convenience). Quite often it uses Hexagram 8 for this purpose. That section I?ve expressed as ?retrace the consultation to its source? can also be read as ?consult the oracle again?, but that isn?t always the idea. It means (I think) going back to the source of your question, finding why you asked what you asked. If you once reach this well-spring that is the source of your questions, you can divine and act with constancy. It?s not a mistake to ask a great many questions, of yourself as well as the I Ching.

So speaking of questions - what about the outcome? The short answer is that you can?t know for sure: if the I Ching could tell you what someone would decide, before they?d decided it, they wouldn?t be free to choose - which, of course, everyone is. But the I Ching can show you the tendencies you would be creating by looking and hoping.

Line 1 ?Sincere and confident, seeking union.
Not a mistake.
Sincerity and confidence filling a simple jar to overflowing.
Coming completion brings more good fortune.?
This is how you begin your quest for reunion: utterly sincere, at one with yourself and the moment, overflowing with this quality in all simplicity. Carried through to the end in the same spirit, it surely has to mean good fortune.

Line 2
?The origin of seeking union, within. Constancy, good fortune.?
This picks up on the idea of retracing to the source: you have to know where you are starting from. You focus on G, but it begins within you, and not losing yourself. And then - moving on from that source into practice, there is fulfilment.

Line 4
?Outside, seeking union. Constancy, good fortune.?
With that strong basis inside, you can move out, join with someone else, even if you start out entirely separated.


So? you see why I?m puzzled. This is a good reading - about the first on the whole page! There are quite a few conditions about it - you need to absolutely know yourself, be single-minded (or ?single-hearted?!) and to begin with a real understanding of what you are looking for and why. Then the I Ching keeps mentioning ?constancy?, which is basically the quality of steadfastly carrying something through to completion in practice - it calls for more than just having a clear vision and making a good start. So if you are happy in yourself with all these conditions (more ?retracing?!), then keeping on hoping is worthwhile.

(Or at least, that?s what I make of it. Anyone else have any thoughts?)

[rosetattoo]

Before I continue along the path of my "situation", I have another general question...I bought some i-ching coins, and they are confusing.
I will try to re-create what my book says on the subject.

IN stands for the inscribed side.
BL stands for the blank side.

so....

BL+BL+BL....._______ (MOVING)
IN+IN+IN.....___ ___ (MOVING)
BL+BL+IN....._______ (STATIC)
IN+IN+BL.....___ ___ (STATIC)

Seems straighforward, right? Only problem is, the coins I bought have inscriptions on BOTH sides! One side has 4 symbols, equally placed around the coin, the other side has a design running in a circle around the entire coin. So which side is which??? This could give totally inaccurate readings if I don't use the right side!

Now on to my "situation". Hilary, what you say makes a lot of sense. (this is why I have so much trouble interpreting these readings...I am always looking for a direct answer, not reading the underlying message that pertains to my own personal feelings or attitudes.) As much as I love this man, and think I want him back, there is a part of me that questions whether or not a reunion is the right thing for me. Your interpretation of my readings confirms this. It is very hard to let go of something that you were used to, and comfortable with, possibly for fear of never finding it again. I guess what the i-ching is trying to tell me, is that I must be positive about what I want, before going after it?

Without consulting (regarding the new gf) I can tell you this...G. is probably feeling much more secure in a relationship where he is in control, as opposed to being in love. He is very emotionally needy, and (denies that he) carries baggage in this area (which dates back to infancy). It is far less confusing to him and much more comfortable to be the unemotional king of the mountain, than the love slave, who continuously searches for signs of acceptance and approval. Don't get me wrong, we had a great relationship, laughed, didn't argue, etc....but he really truly loved me (probably the only real love he has ever experienced) and he had a hard time dealing with these unfamiliar emotions. For the first time in his life, he was thinking with his heart and not his head. In the last year (it was 8 years total) of our relationship, I was caught up with outside stressors, and did not give him the emotional security he needed. I'm not blaming myself for the breakup...if he had been more secure and less selfish, I know we could have worked things out. For 7 months after the break, we continued to see each other. Neither wanted to let go. Even up until a short while ago, he continued to give me mixed messages. Whether this was not to burn his bridges, or to boost his ego, I don't know.

Anyway, I could go on and on, but this is not a "Dear Abby" column. I just felt you should have a better understanding of the situation.

I consulted the "free reading" area today.

I asked "What is the probability of a reunion?"
Answer: 22, no changing lines.

I asked "What are G's feelings towards me presently?"
Answer: 44 > 13, changing 1 and 2

And just to push my luck (LOL) I asked: "What would be the outcome of my perserverance towards a reunion?"
Answer (not surprising): 22 > 27, change at 3

Maybe these readings will set me in the right direction? Your help with interpretation is appreciated.

My biggest problem right now is that I did not have any "closure" with this relationship. This is why, I think, that I continue to search for answers.

Hilary, believe me, if I could afford a paid reading I would gladly have one. I will see what I can do about making a donation, as I am eternally grateful for your help, and that of all the other wonderful people here.

Thanks again.

[dharma]

Hello Rosetattoo,

If I were to venture a guess, I would imagine that the side with the 4 inscriptions is the side that THEY deem 'inscribed' while the other side with the design running around the coin, is considered the 'blank' side.

However, since it is unclear and there is, in actuality, no real groundrule that determines the sides absolutely, why not follow your gut instinct and designate each side yourself? YOU decide which will be which.

This is indeed a perfect opportunity for you to see that often the choice is yours to make -- the I Ching is there to serve not restrict you. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Dharma

[rosetattoo]

Thanks Dharma...as usual, I appreciate your guidance.

Hilary, when you have time to interpret my last readings, maybe this one will be interesting as well:

What will be the outcome of G's present relationship (with the OTHER one)?

answer: 59 > 4, change at the 5th line

Thanks!

[dharma]

Hello Rosetattoo,

I sense that this is an overwhelming and time-consuming situation for you and so I've decided to give you a general summary with the use of my Tarot cards. Hopefully this will allow you to gain a little more insight and allow you to move ahead a few more steps.

Despite the fact that the breakup between you and your boyfriend seemed to have begun sometime ago, you are finally beginning to 'deal' with the reality of it and that can be a bumpy ride at best.http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/sad.gif

The situation is such that you are left very pained and deeply hurt. You very much would like this relationship to work because of the time and effort that's been expended to it over the years. However, the 'problem' is that an important aspect of your growth requires your undivided attention for it's development to take place. Unconsciously, you 'know' this and that's why you have 'allowed' this breakup to occur in the first place.

A new phase has commenced recently that has put you on a new path or in a new frame of mind (I'm sure you can vouch for this.) This new course holds a lot of future promise and so you instinctively follow it's lead. However, you are greatly pained by the losses you must endure to continue on along this path.

It seems that your life's purpose is attempting to steer you towards the events and people most necessary to it's fulfillment. There is a great deal of work ahead and your journey will be a long one. You are very resistant to the process and so you are not going easily with the flow of events (emotionally, that is).

It's very important that you put this particular relationship behind you in time. This boyfriend is not supportive of the person you are becoming and because there will be many things you must learn to juggle to accomplish your goals you need someone who willingly can help you do this.

You are not seeing the bigger picture just yet and so what I am saying may not make much sense right now. Within the next 4 to 5 years the course of your life will change significantly and you will see that this relationship really had no place in the direction that you are headed.

I know this is all easier said than done. Take the time to grieve your loss --one day at a time, one step at a time. No one is right or wrong here. Not him and not you. You each have differing agendas to fulfill. Be kind to yourself by honoring yours.

Dharma http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

I believe you mentioned that you have some knowledge of Tarot and so I will list the cards that came out for your reading.

Self-Center - 5 of Cups
Present Conditions - 2 of Cups
Challenge - Emperor
Crowning Ideal - 10 of Pentacles
Foundation - King of Pentacles
Recent Past - Ace of Wands
Next Turn of Events - 2 of Pentacles
Inner Attitude - Strength
Outer Environment - The World
Illusions - King of Swords
Probable Outcome - 8 of Pentacles
Long-term Influence - 3 of Swords

[meow]

In my opinion (and a little experience <FONT FACE="WINGDINGS">J</FONT>) when one person in a relationship has insecurity issues, it makes it extremely hard for the other person to grow in the relationship. Standing Still/Going Nowhere is the name of the game.

I don't know who would be going through the more difficult time - the one who is insecure or the who is secure. I wish there were a magic potion for this problem, because I have a guy friend in mind I'd like to give it to!

[rosetattoo]

Thanks for all the advice here, guys....I really appreciate it. I have decided to go on a "mental health break", which includes a much needed trip away (physically). I will catch up with you when I return. However I still would like someone to interpret the i-ching readings above, to gain more insight.
Thanks again

[hilary]

Greetings Rosetattoo,

I hope you?ve enjoyed your break http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

I?ve found these readings of yours more than a little tricky. I don?t think it?s just me - I think the I Ching is suggesting that trying to foresee outcomes is the wrong approach at present. Let me know what you think about this!

I started out with the two readings involving Hexagram 22?
I do appreciate that you?ve said ?probability? not ?is it going to happen??, ie that you know it isn?t set in stone. That makes things easier! But even then, this is a difficult question, partly because it?s about free will, yours and his, and it doesn?t seem to be clear what either of you want http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif - partly also because the answer would depend on the conditions. Maybe there is a cycle here - how likely a reunion is depends partly (not solely, of course) on how much you are committed to one, and what you will do to make it possible? and your own state of commitment and what you?ll do depends on whether you think it can ever happen.

Basically, #22 doesn?t seem to me to be a picture of either a probability or a reunion - so the I Ching must be saying something else. This is where it gets really hard to read for someone else, but I can offer you some ideas.

Hexagram 21 would have been a perfect image for a reunion: like jaws with a hard obstacle between them, gnawing and biting through it to re-unite. It often applies to relationships where something or someone (or both) has come between the partners and this has to be attacked with determination before they can come together. But at hexagram 22, ?beings cannot simply unite and reach a conclusion,? so beautifying follows. This seems to be suggesting a change of emphasis for you - coming together is not an end in itself, so a better question might be ?what could we create together??

Hexagram 22 is like a wild flower: outwardly beautiful because everything in its appearance comes from what it is and does. This is a time to concentrate on the outward appearance, for it should reveal the inner substance (?which suggests that you need to be as sure about the messages you send as the flower!). It?s a time to watch and bring light to things rather than to act: there?s only ?small harvest in having a direction to go?. Be aware of your purpose, let it grow, but try to think less in terms of end results. The wise disciple casts light on the standards by which she judges things, but doesn?t dare make conclusive judgements about what is right or wrong here. Concentrating on the appearances for a while just might lead to inner release - Hexagram 40, forgiveness, untying knots, becoming aware of which roads lead somewhere for you and which don?t.

One final thought - this hexagram could also be coming partly as answer, partly as advice. There is some small harvest to be had from having this reunion as your purpose - but this is also the hexagram of courtship. It suggests that you can profitably think about how you present yourself to him - and also that reunion would not be a matter of picking up where you?d left off, but rather of starting absolutely afresh.

With the question about persevering towards a reunion, you add an element of personal involvement and effort to the mix. The hexagram that reflects this is interesting - #27, Nourishment, both suggesting what you are still looking for and also what you need to think about. In the first place, this hexagram is an invitation to look hard at things. The search for nourishment (physical, emotional, spiritual) is a fundamental drive, and you need to understand how it is working here.

The next question of Nourishment (remarkable how many I Ching ?answers? actually ask you a mass of questions!) is about how the exchange of nourishment is working - whether there is a good equilibrium. ?The wise disciple mulls over the words she converses with, is discriminating about her eating and drinking.? The words and messages you send out to nourish others needs to be heartfelt, and you need to be equally clear about the messages you ?take on board? from other people. You don?t have to ?swallow? everything that they communicate to you.

As with the previous answer, I think this one tackles your question somewhat obliquely (!) - talking more about you, your inner state and the messages you send than outcomes. (I suspect this is because you need to be utterly crystal clear about what you want first, rather than having it depend on guesses and probabilities. Maybe also because it?s better not to think of an ongoing relationship as an ?outcome??)
Nourishment shows the inner dynamics, Grace shows the outer expression. At 22, line 3, the two come together:
?Beautiful, and hence soaked. Ever-flowing constancy, good fortune.?
A difficult line? the imperative of mutual nourishment coming to expression, creating an attractive glow of well-being, like shining moist skin. Inner and outer, everything has to be involved - but this brings the risk of too much moisture, something that can drown or somehow shame you. There is good fortune where there is ?ever-flowing constancy? - the ability, as in Hexagram 8, to flow from your source into determined action. In this line it also suggests keeping hold of that detached awareness from #27, so your individual integrity and sense of your own self isn?t swept away by the floods.

...

I'd be interested to hear your response to this - especially to my feelings about the underlying message.

And if any other I Ching people are reading this, I'd also be very glad of a second (third, fourth...) opinion!

[rosetattoo]

Hi Hilary...back from my break...had a nice time doing nothing and trying not to think about anything. Got a nice tan in the process.

I've been reading your interpretations every day, trying to understand. All I can come up with, is that it is almost a "heart over mind" or vice-versa situation for me. I guess the i-ching has been successful in seeing that although I think I know what I want, the self-preservation side of me is fighting against what may not be the best thing for me right now. Maybe it is suggesting that when I finally decide what it is I really want, only then will I be able to find clearer answers. Unfortunately, the thing that is stopping me from being sure about what I want, is the fear that it will not happen anyway, and it will be a lot of wasted time and energy. Does this make sense to you? I'm on somewhat of an emotional roller coaster, and I suppose time will provide the greatest "answer" to my queries.

[snapdragon]

Hi all,

Hi Rosetattoo, I've been having a problem as to which side of my chinese coins to use as head and tails too lol But I think I'm going to do as Dharma suggests and go with gut instinct - which tells me that the side which is most embossed is the heads and the plainer side the tails http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

[rosetattoo]

Hey all, there is a store not far from me that carries books on I-ching.....Here is the url....
www.themagicalblend.com....can anyone check out what they have to offer and let me know which books are recommended? I'm looking for something clear and concise, written in "layman's" terms!
Thanks!

[supanatural]

Greetings To All...

I would strongly recommend Sahrah Denning, The Every Day I Ching.

[dharma]

Supanatural, I hope you don't mind my asking, but why do you recommend Sahrah Dennings book? Is it for beginners, is it more concise, etc.

I habitually make suggestions to my local library for certain books and it usually helps to know a bit about the nature of each one and why I'm suggesting it.

I'd appreciate a little more info when you get a chance. Thanks!

Dharma http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

[supanatural]

Greetings To All...

Dharma, I own around 60 to 70 books on the I Ching. There is no one book that is *THE* Book to end all Books. They all have their good points, and they all have their limitations. I personally lend more credence to a book on divination that's written by a True Diviner. A true Diviner, IMO, is one that not only understands the principles of his/her oracle system, but they must have a stable understanding of Cosmology. I've been a very active student of Cosmology for about 10 years now. I really don't have a need to refer to books on the I Ching for the understanding of a reading. There are times, after Divining, and helping a client understand the reading, that I'm curious as to what the Book writers have said about a particular Hexagram. The Reason I like Sahrah Denings Book is because her approach, to me, is on a very basic level, but she interprets her hexagrams as it applies to human behavior. Sahrah Dening is a Psycho Therapist, who has been using the I Ching in her practice for many years. She has penetrated to the basic premise of each Hexagram, and explains how it applies to human behavior. I'm not sure if I would call it a book for beginners, I think that her book would suit readers on all levels of I Ching study. I came across her book after I had been studying I Ching for many years at a priesthood level, with many years of Cosmology under my belt. I have had an I Ching class that lasted for 3 Years that was Taught by an Ghanian King, who is a Master Diviner with many oracle systems, I still have the notes on every Hexagram and every stressed line from those classes. I refer to it as a Master Divination Text. I have them in a 3 ring Binder that's too full to close. I, after all of the I Ching classes that I've had, was no longer moved to purchase I Ching books. I had a Library of around 70 I Ching books, and I finally compiled and put together the Master Text. I came across Sahra Dening's book about 5 years ago. I had a habit of picking up new I ching Books, and turning to my Destiny Hexagram and reading it to see how well the author understands the I Ching. I picked up her book and turned to the 50th Hexagram and read the text, and I laughed. I turned to the back cover to read a little bit of the back groung of the author, and I laughed again. I went back to the text, and I was suprised how she basically had captured the premise of each hexagram, I slowly turned the pages and looked at a few other hexagrams, and I was impressed. I purchased the book, I think it was around 12 dollars or so, and I have considered it a translation of choice in my library. I was so impressed with it, I even contacted Sahrah Dening and told her how much I appreciated her work. I also told her a little of my background, and asked her if she needed anything, I would be more than glad to help in any way possible. I contacted her via E-mail.

I'm not sure if my appreciaton of her book would have been the same, without having the extensive training that I've had. I think that it played a major factor in being able to see the value of her book.

Personally, I'm also really Impressed with you as well Dharma, and I think that you would really enjoy this Book by Sahra Dening. the two of you kind of have the same personality so to speak. I think that you would be able to discern the innate parts of the hexagrams better by reading her book. Now that you mention it, I would really like to hear your thoughts on her book.
I hope this helps.

[dharma]

Supanatural, this more than helps!! Wow! --over and above the call of duty-- http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

I appreciate the detail you went into. Knowing that this book's focus is in line with my own thinking process makes me more interested in picking up a copy of my own. I will look for it and when I have had a chance to read through and work with it a bit I will most definitely share my insights with you.

Your effort, directed at explaining your reasons for valuing this body of work (S. Denning's book), has helped me know a little more about who you are and what makes you tick. Since your arrival, my inner sense tells me you are truly an example to be followed. I'm pleased to be making your acquaintance. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

Dharma

[supanatural]

Greetings To All...

Dharma, I also feel that Sahrah Dening is at a minority when it comes to translations of the I Ching. the Majority of these books have been written by men. Wilhelm's version still is very Patriarchal, because it came from a culture that was patriarchal. It uses terms like "The Superior Man" "The Inferior Man". The Maculine energy is positive, the Feminine energy is negative. No, Each energy has it's own place in time, where it's more suitable than the other. the Majority of the I Ching Books are written this way, which leads me to believe that most authors, haven't done much research outside of books like Wilhelm, Baynes, Legge etc... Sahrah's approach has an all together different energy. I also get the impression that she comes more so from a practical use, as opposed to a historical perspective. Richard Wilhelm was a Sinologist, not a Diviner. I'm not saying that his book lacks value, but it's a limited point of view. Sahrah Dening, at one time was talking about writing a version stricly for women. I'm not sure if she has, or where she is in the process of this project, but it sounds interesting.

I'm almost sure that you wouldn't have any trouble relating to her rendition. you have a great ability to preceive what's below the normal levels of preception, so therfore you will be able to flow with her perspectives. Tao is about Balance. It bothers me to see a Patriarchal perspective, attempting to teach others about balance. We need more, like Your person and Hilary, and Sahrah, to balance out our Masculine perspectives on this great undertaking.

[hilary]

Coming in late, again...

Rosetattoo, I did visit the URL you suggested but couldn't find a single I Ching book. Is this me? If so, could you post a direct URL so I don't end up recommending books they haven't got?

I agree with everything said about Sarah Dening (she spells her 'Sarah' the normal way, I think) - it's a commentary not a translation, so not a 'primary text', but it is very good because based on divinatory experience not some pet theory. The result is human, intelligent, readable, compassionate - yes, I use it too http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

For a basic, no-added-metaphysics translation, there is always Stephen Karcher - not the Eranos edition with Rudolf Ritsema, which I love but really doesn't qualify as clear or concise, but the handy little 'how to use the I Ching'. It doesn't have all the Wings, but there is plenty there, and it's a liberating perspective. Compare it with Wilhelm or Blofeld (shorter, more human!) and dance in the differences!

Speaking of patriarchy - yes, quite. To be honest, I know that Wilhelm is greatly revered, to the point where some people think of his commentaries as a kind of oracle, but I personally can't understand how women can live with his translation without squirming. Not just the 'superior man' all over the place, but creeping tendency to equate female with sinister. (But I know at least one woman - Mary 'Midaughter' Halpin, a real diviner - who swears by Wilhelm.)

For a change from this ground-breaking text (see, I do appreciate it!) try Wu Jing Nuan, Karcher - just look at what he says on #44!! - and of course LiSe's site (http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/yi_index.html). I've copied the whole site to my computer and consult it every day.

60 or 70 books? Supanatural, you're about 30 or 40 ahead of me. What else would you single out as worthy of attention?

[supanatural]

Greetings To All...

Hilary, I started to dig through my I Ching books yesterday, and I have 2 books by Mr. Karcher. Ummm, other books that I would single out as worthy of attention? The Book Of Changes And The Unchanging Truth By Hua-Ching Ni. I purchased this book several years ago when I was attending an I Ching level 2 class. This Class I was having also included Cosmology along with the I Ching. Hua-Ching Ni's book was one that was mentioned in that class. the Book has a small cosmological course in the front of it. None of the others really stand out as a Landmark. I hope This Helps

[candid]

Hi all,

Just my two cents on Wilhelm and patriarchal applications. I can understand some discomfort at the consistent use of terms like, ?The Great Man.? And other masculine images. Personally, I?ve never applied any other meaning to it other than the yang principle and otherwise read the word man as, person. I?ve never read into the translation as inferring yin as bad, only as the other half of yang. One is light, the other is dark. One begets the other. To me, that?s what makes life. A simple view, I know, but like yin, simplicity isn?t bad, its just uncomplicated. Its our yang that will drive us nuts, without a reassuring hug from our yin. (very subjective here, I know, http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif please bear with me) yin says, ?come back to bed sweetheart. The mysteries will still be there when you wake up tomorrow.?)

I believe that there?s only so much a person can know about the workings of the universe in our life. It?s a matter of (repeatedly) reforming the same basic thoughts into more words, more implications and some added credits. I maintain, the truest meanings lie purely with the images of the triagrams and how the two relate to one another. That shows it in a nutshell. We can guess about their (archetypal) origins, we can dissect and reconstruct, we can attach and we can designate. We can do whatever we feel we need to, in order for it to appear to make sense to our mind. But the simple triagrams provide the only window needed to penetrate into any situation or circumstance that mankind (generic) can experience.

We choose our beliefs and then follow them. No one can prove or do much to disprove them. There?s always evidence of some kind to support them. The mystery remains, a mystery. We can divine. We can separate and unite. We can reason and we can exercise faith. We can rationalize and justify almost anything. (We, generic.) There are countless realms and planes to experience. Our biggest challenge remains the day to day grind and all the little challenges that crop up during a day in the life. That an oracle would be somehow developed to synch this up with everything else that?s going on in the universe, still boggles my mind. It?s the job of unboggling it, which is now before me.

Hopefully, this slight shift in my perception will not be seen as to confront or to be adversarial. It poses a slightly different view of things and may inspire some interesting conversation.

Be well all,
Candid

[dharma]

Hilary, the site that Rosetattoo mentioned www.themagicalblend.com does indeed have I Ching books.

Look no further than the on-site search engine --type in "I Ching" and ta-da!;) magically, the page where those books are listed will appear. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif


Candid, I agree with what you've said above --you are absolutely correct. However, because you and I and others like us are capable of this kind of understanding doesn't make it so for everyone. Some of our human family still need to be fed a sifted-through and strained diet where everything is white or black because the greys are not as easily digested. And that's just my 2 cents worth. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/clipart/happy.gif

Dharma

[candid]

Dharma, Good point, and 4 cents is better than 2. *chuckle*

[hilary]

Back to books...

Ah, yes. I found them. It, um, helps to be looking at the right website (I'd gone to 'magicalblend', not 'themagicalblend'). Astonishing how many I Ching books there are out there I've never heard of, much less set eyes on.

Of those I have: the Huang and Karcher books listed either side of Sarah Dening are the ones I usually recommend as first translations - assuming that your aim isn't to start a collection the size of Supa's! Alfred Huang is more traditional and straightforward. He does talk about line places a bit (ie, a few technical terms), but all is explained, along with the consequences in divination. He's not so - um - idiosyncratic as Karcher! But really either is a good base translation and complement to Sarah Dening's commentary. (Just commentary, like I said - no actual words of the oracle.)

The most basic tip I'd give you would be to get at least one book with the words of the I Ching in it, rather than just someone else's interpretation of them, which may or may not be relevant to your question. The ones available from themagicalblend that I know include the real thing are:
Karcher and Huang (http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/html/recommended_books.html)
Wilhelm's (http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/html/translations.html#wilhelm)
Tom Riseman's (http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/html/translations.html#riseman)
Martin Palmer, Shamanic Oracle of Change (http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/html/e-answers9.html) (this one doesn't give you the Wings, only the earliest parts of the text, plus more modern commentary.)

While I haven't seen Cleary's pocket-sized I Ching, I would guess that it does contain some original text, though not necessarily much commentary to help you with it. And Sam Reifler gives his own translation, departing from the original a fair bit (though he has some interesting ideas).

One other good book - the I Ching made Easy (http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/html/commentaries.html#sorrell). Of course, any major simplification like this is bound to lose something, but this is a good one, I think.


(All these links should open a review in a new browser window; if your browser behaves like mine and doesn't take you straight to the right one, you can still find it on the page using ctrl+F.)

Happy shopping! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

[rosetattoo]

Phew...I should have opened a new discussion for this question!! Thanks for the active dialogue, everyone...Dening's book sounds good to me, and may be the one I go for. I, too, am a little tired of reading of "the superior man". The only book I have at the moment is "The Book of Change", by John Blofeld.
Thanks everyone!

[supanatural]

Greetings To All...

You will enjoy Mrs. dening's book. You can't go wrong with that choice. When Candid gets through with is Hiatus, I think he may Enjoy The Complete I Ching by Huang. He does a much better job, in my persons opinion, than Wilhelm, when it comes to the Imagery of each Hexagram. I, like Candid, also like to project my consciousness into the Imagery of the Hexagram to gain further insight. So Candid, if you don't already have it, you may want to give it a second look.

[snapdragon]

Hi all,

Could Sarah Denings book be used with the Wilhelm translation? I seem to be getting along well with the Wilhelm one but am open to other interpretations of it alongside my own.

[hilary]

Absolutely it can. Ideal combination: real, live I Ching text from Wilhelm; lucid and intelligent commentary from Sarah Dening.

Oh yes - especially if you're in the UK or US, do feel free to buy these things from Amazon via Clarity's book pages (http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/html/recommended_books.html). It won't cost you any more - being Amazon, it'll cost less than most - but Amazon will send me a small commission. Every little helps http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

[rosetattoo]

Hi all...just wanted to tell you that I got a copy of Sarah Dening's book, and I have to thank you. For the first time, I feel I can actually make sense of my readings. Her words are clear and insightful. Whether or not they go as in depth as they should, the i-ching is now becoming much clearer to me.
Once again, thanks!