From Stephen Karcher webinar: Yi misleading us?

[lisa]

Hello everyone. I try to read as much as possible on this site when I have internet access; several days ago I listened to the excerpts from the webinar with Stephen Karcher. He made a statement that threw me for a loop that I haven't been able to get out of, and I'm hoping you'll be willing to provide some perspective.

Stephen said that on occasion Yi might intentionally mislead us - give us an answer that will get us into enough trouble that we'll learn SOME lesson, by golly. He did say he's seen this only rarely, and the specific context was enlisting Yi's guidance in acts of revenge (and Yi then deciding that we need a demonstration of how misguided we are) - but caveats notwithstanding, this is something Stephen's actually seen happen. (And Stephen also said there could be circumstances where Yi agrees a little 'revenge' is appropriate (!), and will therefore provide you a strategy...)

What worries me is not so much how often this 'misleading' happens, or specific examples of questions or attitudes that might elicit such a response - but simply that it CAN happen, at all. What are we supposed to do with that?!

I guess I thought that whatever our problems in framing questions and interpreting answers - all the usual difficulties - we could at least count on Yi being straight with us. But apparently not. To some degree I'm left feeling like all the balls have been tossed in the air, like the mere possiblity that this can happen puts everything in doubt.

As an odd analogy, I'm reminded of something I read in a Microsoft employee's blog: That in the wide world of computer malware, this person's biggest fear - the thing that keeps him awake at night - is some hacker or spyware application getting hold of your computer and so thoroughly emulating your operating environment that you have no way of knowing it's been done. It looks and acts just like your normal PC, but in reality everything's going right to the hacker!

Just like what Stephen said about Yi intentionally misleading us: (1) it's rare, but (2) it IS possible, (3) you can't tell (until it's too late), and (4) there is little if any available defense against it.

What are we supposed to do with this???

[jte]

MHO, accept it for what it is. You've probably noticed that the Yi's advice is essentially benevolent. I've experienced this a few times and I found that the lesson/experience the Yi was leading me to was ultimately good for me.

Think of it as medicine - even though it might taste bad, it ultimately helps. Another way to look at it - sometimes real growth requires some stretch and that stretching can be uncomfortable. But, if you shy away from it because of the discomfort you never get to grow. What's a benefactor/personal guide to do?

You always have the option to not use the Yi, although I'd think it sad to have someone do that over mistrust for the mere *potential* for something like this. You could also, I think, lay out your conditions ("hey, Yi, you *gotta* be straight with me for me to trust you") in your questions, either mentally or in the way you phrase them. However, I'm fairly certain there's no guarantee that the Yi will follow "rules" that you try to set for it. In a way it would be like telling a tree "Hey, no shedding leaves on *my* driveway!" The tree's gonna do what it's gonna do.

My 2 cents,

- Jeff

[simple_complexities]

As much as I respect Stephen Karcher, he is misguided on this issue. Its as if he sees the Yi as something separate from himself, rather than an extension of his higher self.

His renown and reputation should not make you feel like his word is the final word, its just his interpretation, just like I am going to offer my interpretation now. I have no renown or reputation, neither do I seek them. So I ask that you at least consider what I offer, if for only a few seconds.

There are many great translators in the world of Yi from many parts of the world, and they all offer their own diversity of opinion. None of them can be accepted as universally correct or incorrect, because no one has yet achieved the ultimate goal of the Yi - the complete realisation and balance of our true nature. This fact alone has prevented me from writing my own translation, because how can I possibly advise others from a perspective of pure truth if I have not realised every aspect myself yet?

That being said, there is much I have learnt. Or I should say, there is much I have "unlearnt", the journey of the Yi is as much about stripping away old ideas as it is about realising new ones. As I have said in previous posts, the Yi is from a place where all energy works in harmony, not opposites. The separation of this energy in the form of the 64 hexagrams is like piecing a jigsaw puzzle together, the only difference being, the greatest tool we have is intuition not logic. Intuition is such a rarity nowadays because we have come to rely upon thought and logic as the driving force of evolution to such an extent that many of us are forced to try and enhance our intuitive powers using the Yi because our minds have become separated from our emotions. And this is not a negative thing by any means, it shows many of us are sharing a common wish - to return to the origins of who we are.

The Yi is our origin. It is where love and truth are the guiding forces of evolution. It is where intuition works fluidly and without pause, where thought is no longer mistaken for being a separate substance but merely the expression of the hidden. There is so much I have experienced through the Yi already, and if there were ever times where I used a divination method to ask a question and received a "muddled answer", it was because I did not understand it. If something irritates, agitates, confounds, mystifies or stirs hatred in you, its quite simply because you have not yet seen the truth in it. Everything has its own value.

Karma is a concept many people believe in. The prospect of the bad we do coming back to us, or if we do enough good deeds then good karma will find its way back with eager wings! Karma does exist, but only because we make it exist. If we truly believe within ourselves that if we do a good deed then something good will come back, then it will, because we will be looking for it at every opportunity! If we recieve bad karma then it is the result of an action we did many days, weeks or years ago. If you think like this, your reality will be like this. Which is better - doing a "good deed" and letting it go unconditionally without any end result or reward attached to it.....or doing a good deed for the sake of it being returned to us at some point. The same goes with the bad also. With the Yi, you have the same choice. Is the Yi intentionally misleading you to teach some great lesson (karma), or are we misleading ourselves through lack of understanding.

The Yi is constantly aware of how each of our energies is moving and transforming, its like we each have a form of some kind or another as we walk our path. This form is versatile and shaped by us, and us only. This is why it appears like the Yi can fortell the future, because its simply telling us how we are growing, but the whole point of the Yi is NOT to live for future moments, but to live WITHIN the moment itself. This is hard to do when we divine a lot because we are constantly moving OUTSIDE of ourselves in search for the answers, when the Yi is just giving us the truth WITHIN ourselves that we are too blinded to see.

The only "hard lessons" we learn through the Yi are ones we have asked for, ones we have grown ourselves. When you know how to cultivate the energy and understand it positively, then the negative isnt thrown out and discarded, its integrated as parts of ourselves. Weakness isnt something we want to dilute with strength, its an essential ingredient of who we are, it helps show us our potential.

The Yi is both our weakness and our strength but all of OUR choice. The only traps we set for ourselves are the traps of self misunderstanding. Ironically the Yi's power is simple to find when coins are lost and yarrow stalks are absent, look to your inner, there lies the same voice, its your voice, waiting patiently and lovingly for you to listen. It demands nothing, it asks for nothing, but here is where your true self lies, knowing one day your'll remember just how truly great and small you are.

[bradford_h]

My own vote:
The Yi is a book.
It does not intend to lead us.
It does not intend to mislead us.
We do these things to ourselves
and point our fingers at the Yi.

[bruce]

*pop!* There goes that bubble.

I don't know what or who Yi is. I just know it's the most reliable teacher I've known in this lifetime. If Yi is my higher self, cool. If Yi is ?them?, cool. If Yi is just a book, cool. It works, whatever it is.

I agree with Jeff, in that bad turns can have a way of bringing about good changes in the long run, if we stay our course.

I agree with SC, in that it's our own misunderstanding that leads us off our path. But that?s not always a bad thing.

Of course I agree with Brad, it is a book, and we do these things to ourselves.

I think what Stephen meant, though it's dicey when taken out of context, is that Yi does sometimes play with our heads. Or if not Yi, then we play with our heads through working with the book. I don't think Stephen intended to suggest that Yi deliberately leads us off the path, but that the path that serves us best isn't necessarily the path we intend to choose, or the path most others would choose for us. Not doing the expected but instead the essential seems Yi's way of guiding and teaching. The unexpected as in a dream: though it comes from us it appears to come at us. That's Yi's way, imo.

[simple_complexities]

I should have emphasised that the Yi is a symbolic representation of ourselves! Ancient knowledge from a great source...too little sleep me thinks...emphasis on symbolic! I didnt mean to come across as saying the Yi was the be all and end all, just trying to say how important literature can be misinterpreted. Bedtime

[hilary]

Hooray! Someone is watching the excerpts! Anyone else want to? They're over here (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/gatherings/recording_order.html)! (*Jumping up and down and waving arms round*)

It would be good if Stephen were around to say what he meant, of course, but I gather he's away. While this excerpt really needs taking in its 2 1/2 hour context, of course, I do think he is very strongly aware of Yi as a distinct identity, with a different 'voice' from our conscious selves, and one who knows a whole lot more. I don't know where he thinks this voice 'really' lives, inside or outside. (Personally, I love Matt's post, but wouldn't want to try to pin it down anywhere.)

The first time he told me about Yi misleading people, I got the impression this was something he'd seen maybe once or twice in however-many-decades of work as a diviner. (In 5 years of ditto, I've never seen anything like it.) And this was when people were trying to use Yi to bad ends.

I believe when the Washington sniper was caught, he had a copy of the I Ching in the car. If he'd been consulting, what kind of answer do you think he got?

So I think the gist is - Yi is not without intention, not a slot machine for right answers. And in saying Yi might mislead you or might provide you with a strategy for revenge, Stephen was basically declining to nail down what that intention might be. The 'hacker in the operating system' - interesting comparison. Ghost in the machine, maybe. We may imagine we're 'using' it, but in fact there is an active partnership at work.

[simple_complexities]

Wow, people say what I mean to say with fewer words, I have to remind myself that when Ive been awake for a long time not to spout forth informtaion like a garden sprinkler trying to reach the plants before the timer runs out!

Apologies for my long post last night, I will try and use fewer words more wisely next time http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce]

Wow here too. I misunderstood what Stephen meant, apparently.

[kevin]

A case in point.

16 months ago my employment had become untenable? I worked in a team where I had many friends and ? well it was like a second home? But the patient lists just kept going up and up? We had been asking for more staff for over three years? in the end I had to leave ? I just could not keep going with the numbers of cases I had? The Yijing was very positive over this and of the job choices I had available it clearly pointed to one as being absolutely the one I needed to take.

Well 14 months down the line I am about to resign? the roughest 14 months I can remember (job wise)? Come to think of it I did get a lot of Hex. 10 both before and during the job.

The thing is that taking this job burst a lot of fantasy bubbles for me? It also led me to develop in other areas. To make it plain? The Yi had been telling me to get out of my profession and I kept ignoring it? eventually it led me to such a difficult place that I began to listen and do the other things it had said were important.

When I look back over the readings I got it did warn me (Hx.10) It did say that it would be difficult? And when it told me it would lead to good things it was also telling me the truth? Just that the good things were going to come after I became less stubborn about my direction.

Was I tricked by the Yi?

Did I trick myself?

I suspect I tricked myself and the Yi really had to rub my nose in the message before I could hear it.

--Kevin

[kevin]

(Off topic - appologies)

Enjoyed your post Matt

Just one thing I would comment on. Not that I am necessarily right either:

quote:

?it shows many of us are sharing a common wish - to return to the origins of who we are.

Looking at the King Wen sequence as a whole it appears to me that it is the path from undifferentiated primal energy represented by hexagrams 1 & 2 leading to integrated energy in 63 & 64. (Also a path of increasing awareness)

So for me the path of life is that of a task to become aware and integrated. I see no evidence in the Yi that we left a state of grace only to have to struggle back there... (If that was what you meant).

Oh, and what are we to integrate... Khan and Li...

Bright aware Spirit and deep experiencing soul.

Though I think there is evidence in the Yijing which implies karma (in terms of the ?system? having a homeostatic tendency) and of rebirth (possibly).

--Kevin

[kevin]

Definitions which work for me:

The Yijing is a book.

The Yi is something 'other'

--Kevin

[lisa]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses!

Kevin: good example. Had that happened to me, I think I would have reacted the same way - first by feeling blindsided ('lied to'), but then after the fact I'd realize, like you did, that I'd missed the message of hexagram 10. But I would have learned something about hexagram 10, and I'd be a lot less likely to miss its message in the future.

Also, I'd probably conclude something really frustrating about the question/answer process. In one sense it's extremely powerful; in another sense it's very limited. Yi can try to get through to us on a higher level than our question, and maybe we can see that in hindsight, but at the time - if you weren't in the 'change profession' chapter you just WEREN'T, therefore you weren't asking the right questions - the ones from that chapter. Frustrating, sad, a lot of pain, smacking yourself on the head and saying 'Why oh why didn't I just ask THAT?!' But not your fault, and not Yi's either.

Does anyone know of any ways for cutting through the kind of thing Kevin's describing? (*hopes*!)

The difference, though, is that you can see in hindsight that it WASN'T really a lie - misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and 'muddled' answers are not in the same category with Yi purposely misleading us. We can work with 'muddle!' If the problem is our own lack of understanding, we can learn. We can study, discuss, and investigate, we can build up a experiences with Yi, we can dig-dig-dig - and gradually we'll have less muddle and more comprehension. At least we have a fair shot at it.

But if Yi can and does lie to us, how do we work with that? It at least raises the question of how can we ever HOPE to understand? If the fundamental underlying truth of the answers is unreliable...what then? What's the point of trying to learn?

Okay, maybe the important point here is that a blatant lie from Yi hardly EVER happens. I'm probably exaggerating and making a mountain out of a molehill in order to explain why I was so disconcerted. The most *useful* thing to do might be to assume a lie is so rare that we'll never ever see one. After all, most people are not the Washington sniper - our garden-variety 'bad ends' aren't even on the same scale of measurement.

The sniper thing grows legs too...we don't know WHAT Yi was telling the sniper, or how, or why! Knee-jerk says that Yi wouldn't counsel anyone to shoot people, but that might depend on perspective: How far does Yi "zoom out"? In the REALLY big picture, maybe those people 'needed' to be killed in that way, and maybe the sniper 'needed' to be the instrument. And how was Yi delivering the message, WHATEVER the message was? Did Yi blatantly lie to the sniper to serve some cosmic purpose - perhaps mislead the sniper to believe he would NOT be caught, in a way that most people would reasonably interpret to mean 'you'll not be caught'? Or was Yi utterly truthful the whole time, warning the sniper of the likely fallout, and the sniper said phooey on Yi (or simply desired to go ahead anyway, come what may)?

There's too many things we don't know there, though now I'm curious. My only point is that in more usual circumstances, from a learning perspective, misleading answers can be counterproductive and result in distrust.

Maybe it would be more useful to talk about, say, 'disproportionate' answers rather than obviously blatant (and exceedingly rare) lies.

For example - I've asked for readings for the day or the week and gotten absolutely DISASTROUS answers that terrified me - and then nothing more than the usual minor annoyances actually happened. Or FABULOUS answers - followed by nothing more than the usual brighter moments. Asking for readings-of-the-day-or-week is such a widespread practice that I'm hesitant to conclude that Yi is saying 'Stop it!' And most of the time I do get what seem to be reasonably 'scaled' answers. But the disproportionate ones happen often enough to be noticeable.

Does that happen to any of you? What do you make of it? What can be learned from answers that are out of all proportion to either the question or the situation? Yi has MANY MANY ways of expressing nuance, so if Yi gives an extreme reading about ordinary circumstances, um...isn't that like crying wolf? What is in reserve for truly unusual situations? And...what happens to trust?

[bruce]

"Does that happen to any of you?"

Yes, but I account it to some commentaries which in themselves make mountains of molehills. Plus some lines are more dynamic than others.

I view hexagrams and lines as models, which (as Chris points out often) are exaggerations, big enough for us to sift through to find our local meaning and practical application. So those "big ones" are both, the mountain and the molehill.

I don?t believe the Yi lies or deliberatively misleads even the worst of criminals. I believe those criminals set themselves up for failure by believing Yi?s random answer. It is the extreme dark side of hex. 4: The master ignores the question, the foolhardy falls into the pit. And to a lesser (hopefully!) degree, we sometimes make the same mistake.

[val]

Brad said:

<blockquote>The Yi is a book.
It does not intend to lead us.
It does not intend to mislead us.
We do these things to ourselves
and point our fingers at the Yi.</blockquote>ditto. The book is a tool that whatever-it-is-that-speaks-to-me and I use to communicate as best as possible. The only thing is that I call whatever-it-is-that-speaks-to-me through the Yi the Yi as well for lack of a better word. I want to start using a better word, and I want the word to reflect the respect I feel for whatever-it-is-that-speaks-to-me, and I want it to reflect the truth that I don't know what it is. Any suggestions?

Love,

Val

[val]

Oh never mind. I just answered my own question. It's that thing that can't be named.

Love,

Val

[lisa]

Val, I'm about to tease you when you've never met me, but are you by chance in a line for the new Harry Potter book? He-who-shall-not-be-named, or he-whose-name-shall-not-be-spoken or whatever it is? ;)

Bruce: "...set themselves up for failure by believing Yi?s random answer."

Do you mean 'random' in the sense that most people commonly think of it? Or, in the sense that people who understand chaos theory, etc. (not me!) talk about it, where they say there's actually patterns there - which other people say might have ramifications for how/why divination works?

Lisa

[bradford_h]

The Chinese word is Ling, the sacred and subtle intelligence. In Bushi (Yi divination) I tend to see this as a function of Ying, Resonance or Correspondence. Certain words of the text strike a chord in us, usually subconsciously or subliminaly, wherever we get a hint that meanings related to our questions might be hiding.
It is particularly effective with the Yi because the text was carefully tailored, with centuries of work, to fulfill this purpose. And then there's the hypothesis that we set up some sort of synchronistic resonance which helps us to select the appropriate reading itself. But the mechanics of this are still as far from understanding as our proof of it. This is the part that intrigues this old skeptic the most - I still can't explain the Yi's success rate purely with human projection, as amazing as this faculty might be in constructing the world we wish to see.

[bruce]

Lisa,

You're asking a question I am ill-equipped to answer, other than on a speculative basis.

I think it's like two wheels. When our wheel is in synch with the Big Wheel, we are in tune with Tao, and our question matches Yi's, or any other legitimate oracle's truth. When it isn't, we're on our own. In the broadest sense, Yi's answer is always random. It's we who aren't random, when in tune with the Tao. It?s like the earth, moving in synch with its solar system.

[lisa]

Bruce,

So...the Yi can't or won't function as a tool to help us *get* in tune?

[kevin]

Hi Lisa - Absolutely it does - but it might be uncomfortable at times.

Brad - Thanks for the words - Bushi - I like that one a lot... can i be allowed Li Shen instead of Ling?

I am suspicious of explanations of how it works (too?)... The fact that it works seems self evident tho'.

--Kevin

[bruce]

Lisa,

Yes. I think that's perhaps Yi's best funtion, to help us tune to Tao's vibe or frequency. Like tuning our guitar to the tuner. But if the neck is broken, that needs to be fixed before you can even use the tuner.

[lisa]

Bruce, okay, I see what you mean (and I hope broken 'necks' are exceedingly rare!)

Who knows how it works, but despite the little divination 'funk' I'm in (driving me to post endless paragraphs), I agree it's self-evident that it DOES work. I'm inclined towards believing it's something 'bigger' than we mortals, more 'all-knowing' - since it can and does tell us things that we have no way of knowing ahead of time, and that we certainly have no control over, but which are later borne out by the facts.

What relation Yi's power might have to our HIGHER selves, or our higher collective self, is a good question. I wonder if it isn't also a moot point for practical purposes. I don't have access to the 'higher stuff' and so I'll be happy to accept whatever properly-intentioned help presents itself!

My 'funk' of late stems from the fact that I'm a pretty analytic and practical person who also happens to thinks her life needs 'fixing.' The I Ching seemed like an exciting way to try and get a handle on things. As the readings built up, I started noticing that 'the things about the I Ching that are less than satisfactory' seemed to form categories. One is simply the learning curve, which I'm happy to wrestle with. Another is the general kind of situation I think I recognized from Kevin's description of his (hopefully soon ending) career nightmare - (Kevin, correct me if I'm all wet here!) - where you and Yi are in different 'chapters' and in order to meet up you have to (somehow) know what the right questions are, when you may not even know what the right subject is - all in a way that fits Yi's language and process.

Another category is 'misleading' or 'disproportionate' answers. I'd noticed it myself, and then I heard Stephen Karcher's statement...and it suddenly seemed to me like there was absolutely NO hope of making sense of this, NO hope of reasonable understanding, NO hope of being able to analyze the I Ching into something useful!

Hence the funk, FWIW, and hence the rather frantic postings. Maybe it's not so much a hopeless funk as just a 'plateau of understanding' that needs to be broken through.

Thanks for your help,

Lisa

[bradford_h]

hi Kevin-
"can i be allowed Li Shen instead of Ling?"

I spoze you'll be allowed anything you can get away with. Specially here.

[val]

Hi Lisa...

<blockquote>The Tao that can be described in words is not the true Tao
The Name that can be named is not the true Name
From non-existence were called Heaven and Earth
From existence all things were born
In being wthout desires, you experience the wonder
But by having desires, you experience te journey
Yet both spring from the same source
And differ mostly in name
This Source is called 'Mystery"
Mystery upon Mystery
The womb giving birth to all of being</blockquote>I personally enjoy the mystery.

And to answer your question...

No... I'm not in line (yet) for the new Harry Potter book, but I DO have a date with a woman (brilliant) who used to post here and lives in a nearby coastal city to go see the new Harry Potter movie together. I can't wait!

Love,

Val

[jte]

"disproportionate answers"

Yes, you will get those if you don't ask about specific topics (and even sometimes when you do). Say you ask a question and get Hex 10. There's danger, yes, but how dangerous is *this* particular tiger that your answer refers to?
*Really* dangerous or just a scare/scrape if you misstep?

As you point out, a question of scope/scale. Hard to know when we live in such a seemingly safe, snug society but in fact put our necks on the line every time we get in a car or walk through a parking lot.

Wish I had a satisfactory answer for you, but I don't. Some suggestions - these will help but not perfectly:

- Pay close attention to what you're asking about and what realistically would be the good fortune/misfortune to expect in the context.

- Ask specific questions rather than general ones until you're more comfortable with the ambiguity level of answers and that you're good at "speaking the Yi's language".

- Ask follow up questions. What will be the nature of the good fortune? What can I do to minimize/alleviate the danger/evil? Is this *really* a big deal for me? What's the ethical thing to do in this situation? You get the idea...

Things like that can help somewhat.

---------------------------------------------

"I'm inclined towards believing it's something 'bigger' than we mortals, more 'all-knowing' - since it can and does tell us things that we have no way of knowing ahead of time"

That's how I see it as well and just to let you know, there's other reasons why you might end up believing that, too. Experiences that you might have at some point down the road. So, don't be too stunned. And *if* that starts to happen, take it stride - don't lose your perspective. That sniper guy apparently had delusions that he was God. Obviously he wasn't. But he may have had some experiences that he misunderstood and that fed his delusions.

- Jeff

[jte]

One other thing. That future the Yi shows you is *not* always unchangeable. For example, think of 62.3 - as the line states, the upcoming danger (whatever it might be) is avoidable in that particular case. Another reason for followup questions if you get concerned by a reading...

- Jeff

[lisa]

Val,

That's really very interesting...did you write that, or where is it from?

Being a 'cat person,' I'm also reminded of T.S. Eliot's poem about the naming of cats, and how only they know their 'deep and inscrutable singular Name.' (Mine would agree, even the one who has 6 names assigned to her by committee.)

Hope you enjoy the movie!

Lisa

[bradford_h]

Lisa-
Val quoted Chapter One of Laozi's Daodejing (Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching).
This is the John R. Mabrey translation.
Not to fault Val for her choice of translations, since she may not be familiar with many, but this is not a very good version. Another one to avoid is also the most popular, by Stephen Mitchell, who doesn't know a word of Chinese.
For anyone interested, this site compares 100 versions of Chapter One:
http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/tao-te-ching.htm

[lisa]

Jeff,

Wow - thank you so much for those insights and suggestions - I'm feeling much perkier about the entire subject! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif

I'm really anxious now to go back and look at some of my readings with your points in mind - I remember one in particular, which was amazingly fortuitous for something that turned out to be merely nice, and really not worth the fuss involved in going after it. (It happened last fall, so I highly doubt that there's any surprises left in it.) I'm pretty sure I had a little chat with Yi at the time, along the lines of 'Was that not perhaps a bit overblown?!' but I don't remember the answer.

As for asking follow-up questions...um, I do (when Hilary turns blue in the face from having to expound yet again on the subject of too many questions, I'm turning sheepishly red in the face while reading it!) But for some reason when you lay it all out logically like you did, it sounds perfectly reasonable to follow up...well, maybe one difference is simply that I need to be calm and logical. When I get a doom-laden reading I panic, and my follow-up questions are probably just incoherent expressions of terror http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lame.gif.

Anyway, I'm anxious to go work with this (when it's not going on 3:00 a.m.) It's also really comforting to know that other people have the same problem, and have worked out some ways to deal with it. That's clearly a drawback of trying to figure out the I Ching in a little cocoon as I've been - I start going round and round in my head making myself crazy. It helps to talk to people! (Okay, duh...)

I am curious about these mysterious 'other experiences' you allude to - I assume (and devoutly hope) that they're mostly good experiences and hardly EVER sniper-esque. Yi is quite good at tossing the anti-extravagance barbs at me, though...and I mean at the level of cookies (the confection, not the internet-thingy)...so I hope I'm sufficiently far from delusions of God... (!!)

Thanks again, Jeff.

Lisa

[lisa]

Bradford,

Thanks for the reference and tips. I've actually never heard of either of those translations, but now I will promptly forget them! There are so many, and I wouldn't know the wheat from the chaff.

I don't have many translations or other books yet - Wilhelm and Legge downloaded from this site, a couple that I've cribbed from downloaded freebie I Ching software programs, yours from your site (bless you; I think I'll be busy trying to understand all your fascinating material for, oh, decades probably), and I just started looking at LiSe's (bless her too!)

Lisa

[hilary]

Love Jeff's post! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Brad, since you're around and in sinological mood, could you cast an eye over this thread (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/786/4787.html), please? I would really appreciate your take on it.

[kevin]

Also in agreement with you Jeff.

Looking at this problem of what amplitude to allow for a reading. Eg is danger of a storm mere discomfort and getting wet or is it possibly life threatening?

Yes, I agree, supplementary questions are often essential in clarifying the answer. In my example above, it was to some degree my choice of supplementary Qs? through which I mislead myself. However it might just have been that I needed to have this ?bad? experience.

However, for me, the stones (I use the marble method) I choose and the text that relates to that choice is a only a part of the divination.

If I have a good connection I will know much more than the answer represented in the text before I even divine. This is something that has developed over time.

An example? I sat down to write an email to a friend last night? I wondered how he was and what he was doing. I thought to consult the oracle on this when my feelings suddenly changed? they became slightly tense, excited and full of good expectation. Next the idea of a woman about to be met came to my mind. Along with other good things. I had connected with him accross a thousand or so miles and sensed his state and what was hapenning.

So I wrote to him and asked him to tell me the gossip and how pleased I was for him. He has written back this morning and told me he is going to meet this good female friend on Monday and he is really looking forward to it.

I am not a psychic as such. This facility grew through using the oracle and other related practices.

I think the question I am trying to answer here is,?What is divination?? and "Where do we focus to make it a fruitful process?"

It is partly the process of ?casting the coins?, It is partly understanding the text, but I think the process of consulting the Yi is also one of stimulating some numenistic knowing part of us which when aroused can see and know and tell.

Whether consulting the Yi is consulting some daemon (inspired knowing self)within us or stimulating it to reach out and communicate with a knowing other, a spirit from another place, is for each to decide for themselves.

But developing this facility, as have quite a number of people here (no names!), is pretty essential for those who want to move beyond the confusion that the text can engender and the issue Hilary raised of not treating the Yi as a 'slot machine' information generator.

This is not to say that work to untangle the text is not important too... but it is different to the task of divination.

--Kevin

[kevin]

Brad - OK - Ouch - Chuckles.

Ling it is...

--Kevin

[bradford_h]

Hi Hilary-
I thought I'd offered my take on this already:
that the Yi does not intend anything, to lead or to mislead. The human mind has an amazing power to believe or deny just about anything, if this gives us what we wanted anyway or helps us to self-destruct. As an Occamist, I don't think we need to postulate more intentional entities than this. We are perfectly capable of misleading ourselves and do it all the time.

Lisa (&amp; Val)-
This is a fairly long Laozi bibliography.
It highlights my most and least favorite translations
http://www.hermetica.info/LaoziE.htm
and a whole bunch of full online versions
http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html

[bradford_h]

Hilary-
oops. I responded to the Email and didn't see you were taking about your Shijing thread.
No, I can't respond. To avoid distractions in my current research I packed up all my Chinese resources, including the Chinese texts and dictionaries I'd need to address this. Sorry.

[jte]

Thanks for the positive feedback, folks - appreciation is always welcome! ;-)

The below may sound like teasing, but I honestly respect that all views above are the result of careful consideration and experience:

So, I think if you let your numenisim be tempered by a healthy dose of Occamism, you're on the right track.

(So long as you have a dictionary handy.)

:-)

- Jeff

[kevin]

Chuckles Jeff

Agreed.

But I shall quickly put some flesh on the matter before you get your razor out. (for others - c.f. Occam's Razor)

And I shall be carefull - I believe Bruce is armed with a hammer today as well!

The renaissance was a process of liberating our minds from dogma and it allowed us the birth of reason.

It also appears that modern developments in the field of psychology (I will only whisper neuroscience for fear of summoning the dark lord ;) )and physics, for example have necessitated that we now repossess those aspects of ourselves which are necessary in order to continue to explain that which reason has lead us to.

Most definitely we must not re-enter that pre-reason state of superstition and darkness. We are now very well placed to re-examine those other areas and to repossess that which might still be of value.

I think this is a central task for our civilisation. We might be able to gain a spirituality without a dogma. We might be able to gain a moral sense founded on a deep understanding of the human condition rather than rules applied from a grab bag of values and beliefs which are all to readily set aside when it suites us.

All we have to do is learn to suspend our beliefs and try new things ? then to re-apply our modern rational minds to the result.

Just as our forebears had to dare to be rational. We must dare to put reason aside, for a time, and to see the results.

Few talk about the possible drawbacks of Occamism? it is a tested method but can result in someone, who previously never having seen an aeroplane, reduces it to a jet powered car. Such a person might then proudly say ? I must have been right because it works.

--Kevin

[lisa]

Kevin: What you described (2 posts ago) sure sounds like psychic ability! Do you feel that what you're talking about is similar to what Hilary said in her blog on the subject (http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2005/07/14/what-gifts-do-you-need-to-read-the-yijing/), or is it very different...?

Your job situation and the readings about it certainly seem confusing. You're pretty adamant that you mislead or tricked your own self, but just for sake of argument...what if you'd submitted the background and series of readings (not the outcome) to a good cross-section of I Ching diviners - sort of a Gallup poll - what do you think the consensus would be?

I mean, I get the impression you're pretty good at this, and knowledgeable - aren't you the same Kevin who used to post as 'Cheiron'? How much of the problem was misinterpreting the readings you actually got, versus not making the mental leap to a entirely different line of questioning (career change)? Not really the same thing... though pretty distinctions probably pale in light of the nightmare you're living through. (Which I do hope soon ends - I wouldn't wish career messes on anyone; I have my own version and know what it's like, ugh.)

All these 'isms'... *whooshing sound above head, not from airplane*

Lisa

[bradford_h]

Dangit Kevin-
For a second there I thought you Would call up the Dark Lord for a little chat about the neural substratum!
I've been catching up on evolutionary psychology the last few weeks and am seeing some important lessons for Yi studies, especially some common ground linking us to the authors that the academics, post-modernists and deconstructionists have denied with their cultural relativity and tabulas rasa.

[kevin]

Hi Lisa

Chuckles ? yes ?isms make a lot of noise.

Yes that was me then?

I had to laugh ? after I wrote that post you referred to I went to Hilary?s Blog to re-read her review on the Ritsema Sabbadini version. Then I saw her post ? I could not believe it ? Yes it seems the same to me.

I did submit my readings to another diviner ? two in fact ? both pretty excellent. Both confirmed that the job would be difficult, at times, but it was very much on my path and would lead to good things.

I should point out that this was the time that I learned to make a much better connection with the Yi. It was surprising at first ? Things like finding a missing person who had disappeared from London?

With the job being so difficult I used the Yijing quite a lot. It became routine to suddenly see the situation unfold which the Yi had indicated that morning and to switch into the advised response with the expected outcome.

So with so much positive stuff going on I wonder whether my job readings were clouded by that energy. I am still a little unclear about it all ? I am still in the tail end of that time / space? perhaps it will become clearer later.

Thanks for your good wishes.

--Kevin

[bruce]

Hi Kevin

Funny, just this morning on the way home I was thinking about this sort of thing. We follow Yi?s council, but it doesn?t pan out to be something which lasts very long. Everything is so transitory, and Yi?s ?encouragement? or green light doesn?t bring everlasting happiness once on the other side of the river. But what we learn during that part of the journey becomes an essential link to carry on in whatever comes next.

I?ve watched you go through it, lord knows I?ve gone through it, as probably everyone here has. The line ?take neither loss nor gain to heart? becomes, for me, a mantra of Yi.

Hang in there, friend. Something else is around the corner.

[kevin]

Thanks Bruce

Yup - agreed.

"After every plain a slope, but why do the plains all slope uphill as well?"

Or as a friend once said to me - "If you aren't going up a slope you have probably stepped off a cliff."

Just kidding? I am through the worst ? I have a fresh job to go to soon and other parts of my world are good?

Now have you put that hammer away?... Jeff is around here, he's got a razor and he knows how to use it...

Chuckles

--Kevin

[kevin]

Nah Brad

The Dark Lord banned me from his website ever since I checked the box "I understand that I forfeit my soul" - I was activating Microsoft Windows at the time.

I was wondering what your new project was... sounds interesting... Tabula Rasa always appeared, to me, to be a myth anyway... unless one was referring to politicians.

Are we going to get some previews here?

I do hope so.

--Kevin

[jte]

"Jeff is around here, he's got a razor and he knows how to use it..."

Haven't dug up a cute graphic yet, though, so no worries, Kevin (or anyone else)...

Careful with that axe, Eugene...

- Jeff

[bradford_h]

Hi Kevin-
The outline is posted on my site, under "Psychology's Primitive Tongues". There's a huge preliminary bibliography there, 250 books just for the first half (Kabbalah and Qabalah). Still have about fifty to read. First round of links is still about six weeks away.
The premise is that, regardless of the metaphysical "truth" of Qabalah, Astrology, Tarot and the Yi, projections of our minds upon the cosmos can tell us a lot about our minds. But, as mirror images, sometimes we need to understand them upside down or in reverse order, as existential instead of essentialistic. Astrology, for instance, has grown up for millenia in a consultant-client situation, where the client was usually concerned about his identity in relation to the world and its changes. Whatever the excuse was that made him credulous and receptive to advice from his counselor, the language of astrology had to develop a large set of associations to psychological states and processes (Planets as parts of the Psyche, etc). Yet the real beneficiary of this was the Astrologer more than his client. The client had to learn about one twelfth of the broder human potential, while the Astrologer had to understand and integrate the whole scope of the system. So I'll be developing each system as a language, with grammar, syntax and vocabulary, as a handbook more for the professionals than for general consumption. The whole thing should run about a thousand pages, plus another thousand counting the Yi as a chapter.
This is why my head hurts and sometimes I'm cranky.

[kevin]

Hi Brad

I had a quick read of the above... Blimey!

That is an astonishing project... very exciting...

I am not sure quite what <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

developing each system as a language, with grammar, syntax and vocabulary<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>would look like.

I think I understand what you are saying in terms of each model providing vectors which, when followed backwards, define a feature of the human psyche?

I have marked this for a proper read on my return - I am just stuffing some stuff into a case - away for a week.
Divination Stones - Check
Mythically tinted spectacles - Check
Inflatable Dragon - Check
5 Turtle Plastrons (Microsoft 32 bit)- check
Oh, its hard!

Holiday mood!

Thanks - I realy wish you well with it. Will reply again on my return.

--Kevin

[kevin]

Lisa

Someone contacted me and reminded me of this thread.

It seems we can put it to the test after all - Note especially Stephen Karcher's post forwarded by Hillary and he might post again later inder the name Mr Wu...

As said above I am rushing to pack right now... will check this thread on my return.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/1244.html?1081632760

--Kevin

[kevin]

Oh, to clarify.

It is the job I mentioned in my post of 2cnd April which is giving me difficulty now... However the readings before that seem to refer to that - refer to the time overall...

--K

[soshin]

Yes, this old thread Kevin cites as an evidence most certainly remembers me on some (very few) occassions the Yi was "leading by misleading" me. It seems to me it does this sort of things only when really hard-pressed, so to say.

Some sort of blind spot, which is not possible to be eradicated or enlightened otherwise seems to be encouraging the Yi to lead in a "wrong" direction, just to let life hit you with your nose right into the sh*t you think is smelling so good so you are able to learn it the hard way, through experience.

Namaste,

Soshin

[val]

Hi Brad...

I didn't have a version of the daodejing here and went searching on the net for something (quickly) to show Lisa what I was talking about when I said it's that thing that can't be named. The John Mabrey was sufficient for that purpose.

I'm glad I did since it motivated you post that page of other translations. Thank you!

Stephen Mitchell was one of the first versions of the daodejing I read, and I had a very difficult time getting through it. Thankfully I'd read a more scholarly exploration befor his book. His version REALLY pushed his agenda... and it's just not for me.

Love,

Val

[val]

Hi Lisa...

I just love animals in general... and nurtured cats rather than dogs for the last several years because I didn't have a yard... until now.

The Yi helped me keep a cat alive until he was just a couple months shy of 23 years old. When he was in physical crisis, and I asked if it was time to put him down, they told me it was too soon to play God, and directed me how to pull him through the crisis... twice. Then when it WAS time to put him down, they said so and they consoled me.

Now I have one cat left, her name is Azzie, and she's queen of the world.

<center>http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/4830.jpg</center>

Love,

Val

[lightangel]

She's beautiful, Val and she's very lucky to have you. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[lisa]

Oh me oh my. I read through the old thread, Kevin, and understood...hardly anything! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/uhoh.gif.

Just for kicks, though, I paused after your original post and tried to *cough*interpret*cough* your reading (with the teeny tiny advantage of knowing how it turned out. *rolleyes*)

(But I do feel that I learned something from the exercise http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif ).

10.1
Your desire is for "correct conduct." Your motivation is that this 2nd office really needs you: you could accomplish something really worthwhile there, and out of respect for your profession and the clientele-at-large you want to make a difference. But don't underestimate the profound influence you're already having at your current office. 'Path of simpleton, path of sage?' 'Everyday success is no mean achievement.'[/i]] [Legge: 'He treads his [b]accustomed path...he carries out his long-cherished wishes.']

As an added benefit, at your current office being a sage is easy! The caseload is ridiculous (I think you said), but the mentoring flows nicely. You don't have to impose it, it gets requested of you. You make a difference almost invisibly and without struggle. [San Shan I Ching: 'As yet there are no obligations.'] [Empower Yi Jing: 'He treads the simple path of least resistance, making swift and blameless progress.'] '...far from all tigers and trials... .' 'No demands even on self.' 'No complications, no consciousness[/i] (no conscious effort?) 'quiet for stalking' 'leave no footprints'.]

[b]10.5
You're seeing a dysfunctional situation that truly needs your gifts, and you are determined to try even though you know it's not gonna be a picnic. You'd be leaving things you love (supportive colleagues, dynamic hands-on work) to immerse yourself in a vat of acid (rigid structure, a co-manager from hell.)

Resoluteness is usually a good thing, but in this case you're being TOO resolute - a double dose of strength which will actually endanger health (is it reasonable to say that your mental health, at least, has suffered?) [San Shan transliteration: treading / steadfast(ness) danger.]

And - the other office won't listen to you anyway! Nor will they greet you warmly and give you a honeymoon period. [San Shan: 'Simply because inner fortitude has brought about a change does not mean that such strength is always gainfully employed in all situations.'] [Paraphrasing Bradford: You're looking for your 'next and best act, a romp with a real tiger', but there's no gray area and no room for error in this situation - if it's not a perfect unqualified success, it'll be a disaster. This will be like scolding a King - if he's not convinced to see it your way, your head will roll.]

64, The End in Sight
The end may be in sight, but watch your step; it's not quite here yet. You're prepared for a transition, you really are ready, you've run a great race - it's just that your timing is off. It's out of kilter (all the lines are in the wrong places, and the yins are supporting the yangs instead of the proper opposite.) So, you lunge for the finish line a little too soon, and fall down. A beautiful run-up is ruined at the very end. [Legge, King Wen's Explanation: ...there is not at the end a continuance of the purpose at the beginning.]

Think of your current job (the fulfilling client work, the cameraderie) as a great meal with a fine wine: savor it, linger over every bite. [Empower: Anticipation of fulfillment...before you have fully absorbed the lessons of the journey. Savor this accomplishment. Fully Become. Take full possession of your world before embarking to discover the next one. That voyage begins soon enough, and you will reminisce about this one. These are the Good Old Days.]

Note: I get that one a lot, when I'm railing about this-or-that that I want. And it often works - when I see that 'Good Old Days,' the tension goes away and I think to myself, 'You know, you're right..."

[lisa]

Val,
Awwwwwww, kitty! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/heart.gif She looks quite a lot like my dainty little girl Sammie (Aloysius Itty Bitty Flitty Kitty Spunky Munky Wigglepants Squeak.) Can Azzie come play? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif

Sad coincidence story though - for whatever reason (I didn't or couldn't enlist Yi's help? She was just plain too sick? I'm just plain too numpty???) I lost Sammie's beautiful tortoiseshell sister last fall, at the distressingly young age of just-turned-six...

Purrs,

Lisa

[nelson]

I thought I was mislead and asked,
"why did you mislead me?" The answer
was 28.
With hindsight I wasn't mislead but that
there were two ways of looking at my
action - one - from my perspective was
that the action would be loosening and might
have other results over a long period of
time
and from the other persons - 51 -
create alarm and excitement.
Nelson

[lisa]

Soshin,

Certainly I understand (and appreciate!) Yi's leading me - by whatever means it has to in order to get through my often very thick skull. IMO, if we weren't able to look to Yi for wise guidance, a lot of the value would be gone.

But - (butbutbut) - if Yi can lead by misleading, no matter how much I understand and appreciate in hindsight - I'm at a loss for what to do with that on a daily basis, except be nervous.

Probably the right answer is to just relax. Someone (can't remember who right now) said pretty much that - we just have to roll with it, and it happens RARELY.

I can now sympathize with mothers everywhere, though! (Mommy to 8-year-old, with disappointed look on face: "Billy, Billy, Billy...I won't be able to believe you next time, because you fibbed to me this time...")

Lisa

[lisa]

Nelson,

In other words, there was an 'excess' of conflicting concerns (yours and the other person's) - Yi had to set priorities, and decided that the other person's perspective was more important in this case?

I just want to make sure I'm understanding your example... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Lisa

[kevin]

Lisa

Thanks for taking the trouble to work on that reading - I have been trying to get back to answer it properly.

Short of time!

Just to let you know I will come back - hopefully in the next couple of days.

--Kevin

[kevin]

Lisa

Re. Your post July 18th - Thank you - It made much sense and I enjoyed it.

I had my leaving do last night and am enjoying three days unemployment before starting in a new team.

Friday afternoon - yesterday - my last day - The heads of our service suddenly intervened and ignored the new temporary contract I had signed along with the resignation from my old post and decreed that I was on transfer to the new team...

This means I keep my old higher salary and do not need to find another job in December... I guess it is their way of saying thanks.

So until December I shall settle back and enjoy having a full patient list and no management responsibility... maybe I'll find a way to stay there.

--Kevin