Toltec and yi, beliefs and perception

[bfireman]

Hello all!

I am going to go out on a limb here and see if anyone cares to chime in on this. A real fascination for me is finding corresponding teachings and views throughout different spiritual traditions. The teachings of the Toltecs especially, in my understanding, seem to have many parallel and corresponding views to taoism and the i-ching in particular. In a nutshell, the toltec tradition teaches that "the world reflects our beliefs to us, it does not create them". This seems also to be how the yi works in aligning one with the tao,(yet trying to figure out how the yi works is not at all what I am interested in talking about here). I will include a link below to a nice condensed description of the main philosophical points of the toltecs. If anyone cares to read it and has any thoughts about how this relates in any way whatsoever to the i-ching, I would be curious to hear some other opinions.

LINK: http://miguelruiz.com/toltec.htm

A short quote from this link:

"The Toltec masteries teach us that there's no way for us to change if we don't understand exactly what we humans are, how we got this way, why there is so much fear, and why we live in a place that sounds a lot like hell. For us to change, we need awareness of what the human mind is, how it works, and how we create and perceive our world. The Toltec described the way the mind functions as dreaming reality. They described the mind as that which controls our dream. With newfound awareness of the source of our dream comes the possibility of changing it."

-Brian

[mandy]

Brian, begging your pardon, but what is the Toltec? Isn't change PART of the process of growth and understanding? Dreaming reality is very interesting, i can relate to that. I've always believed theres a grain of truth in the old line: merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.
Mandy, wishing to learn.
p.s this planet is not like hell, it is literally heaven on earth (sincerely meant and honestly said).

[lenardthefast]

Brian, thanks for that link! I too, have often found that there is definitely a common thread winding it's way through all the esoteric teachings I've studied. The exciting thing for me was finding this thread existing and so well-defined by the Toltec. Although I have read about the Toltec in the past, those readings were based on academicians interpretations of artifacts being unearthed, monuments discovered, etc.

This is the first time I have read anything concerning their philosophical bent. Ye Gawds, it was like deja' vu all over again.:-) I got so excited my glasses fogged up.

As concerns a relationship with the IChing other than the obvious one implied by their teachings, I'm sure you are familiar with the current scholarly debate over the possibility of the Chinese having established colonies in Central America? I have been casually watching this debate but I think that I will spend a bit more energy on it now that you have exposed me to the Toltecs' esoteric side(actually, I guess you could say it was more than a side, perhaps it was their PURPOSE)!

Wow! How I am I going to get enough time to investigate all the things that interest me? Guess I'll just have to start dreaming of immortality. Thanks again, Brian, for contributing the basis of my thought for the day.

Namaste,
Leonard

[candid]

Brian - Great stuff! Thanks. This lept off the page to meet me where I'm at during the moment and well addresses a personal habit that I often struggle with:

Don't Take Things Personally
Each of us lives in our own personal dream, and what we say, what we do, and the opinions we give come from the agreements that we have in our own minds - they have nothing to do with anyone else. By the same token, others' opinions have nothing to do with us, so there is nothing to take personally. When we make the assumption that whatever happens is because of us, we continue to hurt each other and brood about what we call injustice. A huge amount of freedom is gained when we take nothing personally.

Wow!

[heylise]

I don?t live with a Toltec, but with an artist, and he says exactly the same thing: reality is not real, you create it yourself. He refuses to read whatever, so he cannot have picked it up somewhere.
LiSe

[bfireman]

Hello everyone! Thanks for all the responses. Pretty interesting stuff, huh??? It really is fascinating how this toltec vision ties in w/ the teachings of the i-ching. Amazing! I feel like I could dissect this article into so many separate threads, and draw parallels between it and the yi, but it would probably be more interesting for each to find their own understanding, over time... This seems to be the method employed by the yi and toltecs anyway, that we are all living our own dream, and the way to our personal truth is as individual as each of us. It was fun to throw it out though, and I am happy yal enjoyed it!

One thing I think is interesting though is a point Mandy pointed out and stated an opinion on, that "life is not like hell".. Mandy, come on now, did you really do your homework and read the article??? I don't think this was meant to be taken literally, yet merely a description of one's perception of reality when viewed through a cloud of false beliefs and understanding. I also do not think life is hell. Yet at times, it sure can be! Haven't you ever been in a situation where you thought, "Damn! this sucks!" For me, the times of my life filled with the most hell, the most pain, have been the times I have grown the most, when the false beliefs I had been so attached to were dramatically revealed in truth as just that - false beliefs. It reminds me of a quote from Kahil Gilbran in his book "The Prophet", where he states in his chapter on "pain" : "pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding". Now, in my experience, that is the truth.

Peace and Love to you all - Brian

[lenardthefast]

Hi Brian,
Having just spent approximately 18 mos. 'breaking the shell' all I can say is "Well put, and right on!"

Namaste,
Leonard

[heylise]

At last I have read the Toltec text. Beautiful!
(I know I are a bit late, but I have had so little time lately, I am late with about everything now. Already eating chocolate cookies instead of cooking real meals)

This text gave me a term .. (a lot more too, but right now this is just about terms)
I have been searching for terms to describe the different lines.
Line 4 is the discerner, the one who is able to make decisions, choices, to see two sides of a matter. (All in my personal view of course)
Line 5 is the leader, the one who can influence, have (and use or misuse) charisma. He can also decide, but in a different way, not by choosing but by ?knowing? (kings and religious leaders are notorious for this one). Expanding and developing knowledge and wisdom, set aside personal wishes for the sake of the group.
The top line the sage, the mystic, the one who shows the tao, or who misguides sometimes entirely.

In a person, what parts of mind, spirit, intelligence combine with the lines? I had mind for 4, spirit for 5 and also spirit for 6, I could not find out which one it applied to. But now I have dreamer for 6. The one who shapes life, and who can only do so if he is free from human boundaries.

By the way ? Lindsay asked some time ago about me sitting on my bed and casting the Yi: the days are always so full of emotions and things like that, and I want to do all the stuff of three days in one day, I don?t have much time to cast coins during the day. So in the evening, at the very last moment, I remember there is also a thing called mental rest. And then I expect the Yi to give me some instant rest. He almost always does! At those moments he feels like a darling grandfather/mother. Sometimes a few minutes are enough to feel happy and (somewhat) relaxed.

LiSe