Hex w/ no moving lines

[bfireman]

Can anybody shed some light on how you interpret a hex with no moving lines. I understand the "time" must be taken into account, but I am still trying to figure this out a bit, still a little blurry...

How do the nuclear hex's play into a static hex?

Does anyone look at the directions of movement within the component trigrams for particular clues?

Anything else? My questions to the yi of late have been non-specific, so it is difficult to relate back to any particulars of the question. I have just been asking, "tell me what I now need to know and understand."

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks - Brian

[kts]

Dear Brian,
Whenever I ask a non-specific, 'just tell me the principles behind this' kind of question, I almost always get a static hexagram in answer, since the question itself is not concerned with movement in the situation. I'm not so good at relating nuclear hexagrams to the question, except in understanding that they can be considered as a sort of 'backdrop' to the question, but the context of the situation you are asking about affects how they do relate. Other than that, I don't think there is any difference whether it is a static or a moving hexagram. Perhaps someone else will have different ideas, but anyway I hope this helps a bit.

[candid]

Hi Brian and Kts.

I interpret that as being a stable condition and time concerning the question asked, whether specific or for a daily centering theme. There's not much to do about it except to be in it, and follow what council there is to make the most of it.

I've never grasped nuclear anything *watches Hilary pull her hair out! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/paperbag.gif* and I'm not sure I'm missing much. I?m sure they work well for some but they only serve to complicate the matter for me.

For the most part, I view two trigrams and see how they interact with each other. That pretty much tells me all I need to know. To me, natural images are easier to emulate than the words it takes to metaphorize them. Wood under Earth is easier to be than processing the term: Pushing Upward, into being. Thunder over Water creates the experience of Deliverance, and so on. Why did the more ?primitive? ancient mind not struggle so much with these concepts? Because the natural images themselves did all the talking. If we are as the trigrams relate, our actions will be in accord with the way, even without redundant verifications of more complex systems. This isn?t to say this is the right way ? only the right way for me. Which is the mataphor, the mountain or the stillness? It can work either way and the effect is the same.

Candid

[hilary]

Hi everyone,

At last I get a moment to drop in here - I've been feeling like a child outside a sweetshop of late, nose flattened against the glass, before being yanked off to work by a maternal superego. Or something.

OK... can anyone suggest a really good word for a single hexagram reading? (Apart from 'single', which is the best I can manage.) 51 alone is not exactly 'static'; 49 alone is hardly 'unchanging', and 40 alone would not seem to be precisely 'locked'...

Anyway, random thoughts on single hexagrams. It has the effect of emphasis, certainly: not 'Army drawn toward Pushing Upward', but 'ARMY!!!' Here is all you need to know, very basic, pay attention please... I've found single hexagrams come up almost every year when I ask for advice (etc) for the coming year. This year is #7: much self-discipline, much furious determination and organisation, definite results, and the occasional feeling of being frog-marched...

The objective demands and reality of the situation are not separate from your own perceptions (hopes, anxieties, desires...) and the direction they give to it. There are no pivotal points where you interact with the situation and have a 'lever' to change it. (Another way of saying: no separate relating hexagram, no changing lines.)

The nuclear hexagram seems to me (*waves cheerfully to Candid*) to come to the fore when there's no relating hexagram etc as 'distractions'. The core potential, maybe, or the core demand: the army needs to be marching on the real path, and perhaps the experience of both effort and self-acceptance will bring this need to the fore. (OK, so it seems to have taken until October, but probably most people aren't this slow...)

For reasons I've yet to work out, the nuclear hexagram can also sometimes be the easiest part of a single-hexagram reading to relate to - the instantly recognisable part, and not so much the 'hidden core'. This certainly fits with LiSe's idea of the nh as the subjective core. (At least, I think I've remembered that right. LiSe?) Time to stretch the stiff old concepts again...

[candid]

Hi Hilary,

There's a Navy term which comes to mind: Under way. It means the anchor is up, everything has been secured properly, everything seems to be in sound working order, a course is set - "ship under way!" Its seems appropriate as a military term for #7 as well. Can you relate?

Warmly,
Candid

[louise]

A good word for a single hexagram reading ? Emphatic ? An emphatic hexagram ?

[candid]

Stable describes it, I think. Ordered? Maintained? Organized? Engaged? Holding? Devoted? Still like 'stable' best, personally. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif

[louise]

As Hilary said can you apply those words to every hexagram though ? 'Maintained' to 49 ? Stable to 51 ? No, no I think emphatic is better - only joking...I still can't figure out the emoticons so I have to tell you that....i am smiling

[louise]

Great I've finally just figured out how to do the emoticons.. now i can express myself..http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/tiger.gif

[hilary]

Louise, you got in ahead of me there. I once read for someone (not a customer) who received Hexagram 49 unchanging. A perpetual state of revolution that never quite reached the stage of founding a new way of living. Not precisely 'stable'. But the trouble with cheerily picking holes like this in all Candid's kind suggestions is that I don't seem to be able to do any better...

Emphatic? Perpetual? Single? Unified? (I can see posible misinterpretations when I get to #38...) Atomic?? eeerrrrrrggghh...

[candid]

Not giving up! Ummm steady, even, constant, firm, established, secure, singular... ok now I'm giving up. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/howmuch.gif

Louise... you go girl! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smooch.gif

[lindsay]

I like "stable". Hexagrams are gua, figures, regardless of their individual meaning. Some (with moving lines) are in flux, about to turn into another gua. Others (with no moving lines) are momentarily . . . umm, "stable". IMHO Candid has the right idea.

Lindsay

[lindsay]

On the other hand, I see no one has yet asked a very important question: How is it possible for hexagrams to exist at all with no moving lines? Yin-Yang theory is based on the premise that Yin is constantly changing into Yang, and Yang is constantly changing into Yin. Neither elemental force can exist long in its pure form. Thus, according to this theory, a hexagram with no moving lines should be as rare as an atom with no moving electrons. Yet we all receive them in our readings regularly. How can this be?

I believe the answer is quite simple. Being very old (at least 3,000 years), the hexagrams tire easily and require lots of rest. Chances are a hexagram with no moving lines is fast asleep!

Here?s how it works. The hexagrams live together with other archetypes, symbols, and pure ideas in a remote, but universally-accessible metaphysical location. When someone casts the Yi, one of the hexagrams is required to manifest itself in a form appropriate to the reading. This can be hard work. The same hexagram may be called to appear again and again whenever people across the world cast the same result within a short period of real time. The hexagrams are not getting any younger, and who can blame them if they occasionally doze on the job? So when we receive a hexagram with no moving lines, we have summoned a figure exhausted from its efforts to serve and now in a state of rest.

This important discovery has grave implications for the future. As the hexagrams continue to age, and as more and more people take up Yi divination, the stress on these 64 symbols will increase, and so will their need for rest. This theory is scientifically verifiable. If Yi divinations are tracked over a substantial period of time, we should detect a significant increase in the number of readings with hexagrams without moving lines. Perhaps an international organization can be persuaded to sponsor this important research. Meanwhile, we can only wonder what this disturbing trend means for the future of Yi divination.

One must respect the elderly, so I hesitate to suggest we call these hexagrams ?exhausted? or ?sleepy? or ?somnolent? or ?comatose? hexagrams, with all the needlessly negative connotations such words possess. Instead, I recommend we call hexagrams with no moving lines ?resting? hexagrams. Dignified, but accurate.

Thank you for your consideration.

Lindsay

[binz]

Hi all,

thoughts from a beginner:

1) the 'perpetual' hex - ie no changing lines - may signify that the person asking has one path to follow in the matter in question and it is thus not time dependent as the basic approach that person takes will apply no matter how the situation changes.

2) therefore it goes on that - the 'evolving' hex suggests that the response that the asker takes will have drastically different effects if taken at different times and therefore a different response is needed for different times.

As for how can 'static' hex's exist at all without changing into different hex's? Well the words and symbology may remain unchanged - but their meaning subtly changes depending on the circumstances - i.e. we have static hex's that are in perpetual motion.

so lets call them "perpetual hex's"

Binz

[louise]

Wow Lindsay, where did that come from ! I'm still struggling with my feeling of the Yi being live, responsive entity and now I have to consider that the hexagrams may be separate little beings too, who get tired. I'm imagining little cartoon like figures. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif
Which reminds me I once saw an I Ching book where each moving line was represented by quite a basic cartoon with a caption. I was too mean to buy it and have never seen it again, does anybody know what it was ?
Though it may sound sort of silly I thought at the time it was quite an effective idea, because it gave an image without the trap of words. Most translations however good seem to limit meaning rather than expand it.

I think Hilarys explanation of the 'locked' hexagram is the most satisfactory I have ever come accross (in post above) "The objective demands and reality of the situation are not separate from your own perceptions...there are no pivotal points where you interact with a situation and have a lever to change it" Also Binz points are very lucid.

To digress, but also illustrate, I recently asked (repeatedly)about a new job i was due to start and constantly got 6 line 4. When I asked if I was up to even doing the job I got 6, line 4. When I asked what to do then got 33,1 and 6. Asking again and again, not understanding still what to do I got 33 again, line 3 and finally 33 locked. (After further harrassment of Yi I got 4 three times in a row)http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/shame.gif I went ahead and took the job and was unable to sleep last night because of the stress of it - asked whether I should still intend to stay there and got 28, locked (or stable or emphatic or perpetual). I was fired today - and I think the locked 28 was telling me that the situation was going to topple no matter what. I take the locked hexagram as the Yi's final word on a situation, where you have no 'lever' as Hilary says to change it. If only I'd listened in the first place.....http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/ugh.gif

[candid]

Lindsay - With all due respect, I can't imagine the binary code altering from age. But I do think you're onto something with the 'resting' idea. In Tai Chi, there's always rest between a movement from Yin to Yang - Yang to Yin. Rest compliments movement. The same is true for breathing. This isn't the same as static. Static would be stagnation and decay. But rest is something we all do and must do in order to continue on in life. Its not death - not static.

Another thought on the matter: Sometimes marching orders aren't specific. "Carry on", another common military term simply means to do what one would typically do in their assigned duty. If the call to duty is say, increase generosity toward the people, as in # 7, that's the call to duty - no changes necessary. Carry on - no changes needed at this time.

Candid

[candid]

Louise - Sorry about the job, though its seems things happened there as they were meant to. Locked seems ok but I also like your word for Binz's thoughts - lucid. The word implies none-linear movement, similar to how I see the hexagram without change line: Still alive but not moving in a particular linear direction. Lucid... I like it.

[lindsay]

Sorry, folks, I forgot to put an emoticon at the end of my suggestion above: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/clown.gif. For some reason I found parts of this thread rather amusing. I'm amazed Louise and Candid did not use http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/crazy.gif in their replies, but they are far too polite for that!

My latest idea is "prime hexagram" in the sense of a prime number in math. Prime numbers can only be divided without remainder by 1 or themselves. "Prime" carries the sense of absolute integrity, without ties or reference to anything else. Unfortunately, "prime hexagram" would probably be hopelessly confusing, since it is much too close to "primary hexagram". The naming contest continues . . .

I promise not to joke around again. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/footinmouth.gif

Lindsay

[pam]

I have found over the last 35 years of readings, that a static hexagram often means the opposite of what the hexagram usually connotes. But this only holds true with some. Hex 27, Nourishment, if received as an answer to "Will I get this job" or "Is my plan a good one?" usually means NO nourishment. OR, another way of looking at it is pay attention to where you should be getting nourishment, and not become sidetracked by this. The hexagrams of 51 and 49 alone sometimes indicate the I Ching's own shock with your preposterous idea or that what you are proposing is total revolution - and something that you cannot or will not actually do (and possibly if you stop to think about it, you will realize this). I have many examples, but has anyone also noticed this tendency?

Pam

[louise]

Hi Pam, I've not come across these ideas before, or ever noticed the tendency...So when I got 28 locked do you mean that actually means 'no excess'? Difficult concept for me to get my head round.

[hilary]

Hi Lindsay (*still chortling*) - 'prime' I like; the similarity with 'primary' is a plus if anything, and I've been hunting round the 'indivisible' idea for a good word myself. 'Singular' has potential, also, but maybe a bit quirky.

'Perpetual' is a nice idea, too - thanks, Binz. How many of these can I use at once?

Hi Pam,

That's a very interesting thought, and not something I'd noticed at all either. (Maybe in another 30 years I might! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif) I had noticed, though, that the meaning of 'Prime' combined with the meaning of the original hexagram in 64 different ways...

Maybe at times (49?) the lack of movement or dual perspective could go against the basic meaning of the hexagram, while at others (52, 12) it would reinforce it. A revolution with no movement or change? Perhaps it's something like a perpetual (Perpetual!) adolescent rebellion, a pseudo-revolution. Hexagram 27 is a challenge at the best of times, maybe doubly so when received as an Emphatic Hexagram (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif). There's sometimes an element of 'you need to think about this and process it fully or you're not going anywhere', too - maybe that would apply a lot with say 20 or 27 'Prime'.

Very interesting - thank you for the provocative ideas!

[heylise]

Pam?s idea of the Yi being shocked about the question was a new and very enlightening one. I loved it. It gives suddenly a whole new dimension to some questions.
(About those puzzling answers: if you get 27 when asking about a job, I think the Yi tries to make you look at what you really need. Do you need this job for sustenance, or will it make your soul starve? Something like that)

I also like Candid?s ?lucid? for a static hexagram. Lucid 51: the Yi trying to get some understanding about shocks into my dumb head. Not distracting me with lines, not allowing any sidetracking, but focussing me on the essence of shocks. Like Hilary said too: 'you need to think about this and process it fully or you're not going anywhere'.

Prime is not bad either: prime 4 (not always a slap on your fingers, it might be an indication that you are learning in the right way, the way it should be done: without any preconceptions or preconditioning. Open and ignorant, ready to receive the truth).

LiSe
YiJing, Book of the Moon
www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/index.html

[lindsay]

This is my last entry in the contest, but it could win the 8-ft. stuffed pink panda bear. What about "integral hexagram"? Granted, "integral" isn't exactlty a household word, but it does convey the sense of something that is itself and nothing else. One big plus is that "integral" does not suggest any assumptions about interpretation, so Pam and Hilary and Kts and everyone can use it without feeling cramped.

"Integral" seems like a winner, but right now I'd bet that "static" takes the prize since many of us already use the term.

By the way, do we have a good name for a hexagram WITH moving lines? Hmmm.

Lindsay

[heylise]

A beautiful one too. I never use static, I dislike the word.
A prime, lucid, integral hexagram. Why bother with all those lines - this sounds grand.
LiSe

[dave]

Hi everybody.

Having only started my relationship with the I Ching a couple of months ago I have benefited greatly from the wisdom of this website and of its "friends". So I tentatively offer my own insights here.

Referring back to Brian, I rarely ask the I Ching a non-specific question. I'm not saying such questions are invalid, merely that you have the additional challenge of figuring out what "implied" question is being answered on top of understanding the advice given. The few times I have asked something non-specific or even no question at all before casting a hexagram I have found it works best if I have some situation that is seriously bothering me at that time. I seem to live too troubled an existence to use this approach very often! Also, the time spent working out a good, concise and unambiguous question often produces additional insights into my situation and helps keep me focused when I then consult the oracle.

On receiving a non-changing primary hex (for want of a better word, as I see from your posts!) I still draw on a wealth of information from the hidden possibilities of the nuclear hex; the opposite of the situation (in Taoism when a situation reaches its extreme limits it next turns into its opposite) described by the opposing/complementary hex; the contrasting hex which, as Hilary has said "provide a context that helps to define the primary hexagram, often as part of a larger unit of meaning"; and the hexagram of sequence (when it differs from the complementary hex) which can show how you got into your current situation. Alas, by this point I frequently experience information overload!

I agree with what Hilary and LiSe said. I like to think of the I Ching as a wise mentor who knows the limits of my understanding even when I do not. A non-changing primary hex says I need to reflect on my situation further. Only by better understanding myself and my current circumstances can I affect the changes I need to make. I have to understand where I am right now before I can know where to go from here and how to get there. When I have done this I can consult the I Ching again and if I am ready I will receive the guidance I need.

Dave.

[hilary]

Ok, where did I put that 8-ft panda? Amazing how hard it can be to find these things...

Tom - known as Pocossin in these parts - has drawn the attention of the Midaughter I Ching group at Yahoo to this thread. I foresee interesting times as we try to keep each group informed about the ideas of the other!

Anyway, Tom says (to summarise him, hope he won't mind) that an Integral Hexagram (!) does change: it just changes into itself. So you actually have a reading which you can treat as having a cast and secondary hexagram as usual (present and future, or description and diagnosis, in Tom's book), only the two happen to be the same.

I'd also say that a Lucid Hexagram (is there any reason to use the same term twice in succession?) is changing, but on the simpler premise that all lines are changing all the time - it's just that the 'young' lines aren't going to make the transition to their opposite any time soon, so we label them 'unchanging'.

I'll be back in a minute with a URL for the Midaughter list...

[hilary]

...
and here it is (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Midaughter/)...

[bfireman]

Well damn,

Returning from a short-but-sweet vacation, this naming seems to have gotten interesting. So, I'll throw a few more intot he pot...

floating, hanging, balanced, uniform, enduring ...

-Brian

[julianne]

autonomous?

[willow]

hmmm.....


au·ton·o·mous

ADJECTIVE: 1. Not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent: an autonomous judiciary; an autonomous division of a corporate conglomerate. 2. Independent in mind or judgment; self-directed. 3a. Independent of the laws of another state or government; self-governing. b. Of or relating to a self-governing entity: an autonomous legislature. c. Self-governing with respect to local or internal affairs: an autonomous region of a country. 4. Autonomic.
ETYMOLOGY: From Greek autonomos : auto-, auto- + nomos, law

[pam]

I have been out of the area and hadn't checked on your thoughts on my response until today. The hexagrams I see meaning the opposite are as follows:
13 - No fellowship (or no real communication)
14 - Giving up possession of something or someone. Releasing it or letting go.
16 - No enthusiasm, or someone else's enthusiasm for something which is not in your interest or does you no good.
27 - No nourishment, or think of where your nourishment should
really come from.
35 - Very little progress. This rarely means NO progress, but often means barely discernible progress or shameful progress in a situation where progress should be clear and easy.
38 - This often means estrangement followed by reconciliation, or happiness. Working through the estrangement.
58 - The joyous is never a positive hexagram by itself. It usually means the evil, or cutting side of joy. The person who is flirtatious when they are not free to flirt. The interest in something which causes pain to another, or to yourself. If I throw this about a stock, it goes down. If I throw this about someone else, they are insincere or being seductive just for the sake of seduction. If I throw it about myself, I am causing the harm by being that way.

Preponderance of the Great is just that. The rest pretty much take their meaning from the judgment and image attached to the hexagram and reinforce it (as Hilary suggested). The only other one which seems to take on a separate meaning is 53, which thrown alone seems to indicate "a development" and not "gradual progress". Actually, I consider this to be the meaning almost always, but alone, it is usually an unforeseen event which will change the way you look at things, or bring some change to the overall picture. This is only "opposite" in the fact that the development will not necessarily mean progress. It could bring an unwanted event.

I think it is highly profitable to engage the I Ching in a conversation when you think you are pretty adept at getting the meaning of what you throw. In that way, you can narrow down exactly what you should do in a situation, if you can't always guess exactly what events will transpire. On the other hand, if you CAN foresee what is about to happen and it would adversely affect you, you can find out whether there is a way to modify, change, or avoid the event or your reaction to it. This is how the I Ching can help you to foresee the future to the greatest advantage.

I'll try to check in more often...

Pam

[julianne]

dear willow-
some more:
special intersocial volition-independently motivated
antonym: subjected
scope, play, full play, full scope.
give a loose to (permit)
leave alone, let alone
authorize, accord, admit.
uncaught, unrestrained, unchecked, unprevented

I hear here something about will and surrender, the fine line between allow and neglect. The irony in autonomous is that theoretically an unmoving hexagram is unfeasible - everything is related and everything moves with that swinging tao. Perhaps what is being suggested is that something has become isolated-is one's perception of autonomy being acknowledged and challenged? Is the issue autonomous, a rogue guest at today's table that goes beyond the question at hand?

It reminds me of the major arcana cards in a reading-Temperance can not call your attention without some situation to live through. Theoretically it is inanimate. nonmoving. autonomous.

I really love words. A correct word is magic, but necessarily limiting. Ooooh, a theme.

Caught? Uncaught (ie: you're not catching this?)

blessings-
julianne

[candid]

Pam,

Sorry to say I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of hexagrams mentioned. Always and never aren't inclusive of many possibilities. I also notice that each of your examples are *always* to be interpreted in the negative sense. I'm at a loss to understand how you've arrived at these conclusions.

Candid

[hilary]

Hi Pam,

Thank you for sharing those ideas! Like Candid, I find most of them go against the grain for me, but they do prod me into further thought. I wrote somewhere that the idea 'unchanging' works like a relating hexagram in modifying the meaning of the hexagram you cast. Nice theory, Hilary, now put some flesh on those bones...

The way you drop in words like 'often', 'rarely' and 'never' I find hugely tantalising! Do you have some example divinations you could share? As I've probably already said a few 100 times, I do have a site devoted to exactly that, over at I Ching resources (http://www.ichingresources.co.uk). Contributions - with name or anonymously - more than welcome. Candid, I hope you're reading this! (*thunderous crashing sound of hint landing*) http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

[kts]

Sorry, Pam, but I agree with Candid. I don't think you can make hard and fast rules about this. I recently had H53 alone as the answer to two slightly different questions regarding the same person. I took these answers to mean that the relationship was on a stable path of gradual development (perhaps over a long time) though without the possibility of any 'milestones' being reached at present, which is what moving lines would mean.
A locked hexagram can sometimes mean that the situation described is not available (which in a sense mine did) but very often just means something which is ongoing.

[pam]

Candid,

I only gave the hexagrams I see occurring in their opposite or negative sense...and 38 is quite a positive throw alone - the estrangement will certainly be overcome, followed by happiness. How is the I Ching to give you an answer which means the opposite of the name of the hex if not by the simple means of the unchanging hexagram (and this for only six of them if you don't count 38)? How is it to say "no nourishment?" Sometimes we are fools and need to hear that truth. If the answer had been 27 - 38 or vice versa, the answer would contain positive lines which alter the true answer from "no nourishment" to something more hopeful. I don't think six out of 64 is a large number.

[candid]

Pam,

I'll have to concede on a 'whatever works for you' basis, but I'm still not grasping the absoluteness of six hexagrams you've specified. That's simply not been my experience. There are times when a total lack of fellowship may draw upon #13, or where 16 comes at a point of experiential hopelessness, but I've not found these to be emphatic conditions associated with receiving those hexagrams in a stand alone position or otherwise. More often, they reflect the coming of those conditions or the experience of them in the affirmative. The same with 35 - I can count the three times in a single day in which I've been granted audience after receiving it.

I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don?t think that absolutely rules one point of view out over the other?s. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Candid

[willow]

I wonder if there might be something to see by putting together Pam's experience and Julianne's response to me. Julianne suggesting that there is something 'unfeasable' about about autonomy taken to the extreme of asserting unrelatedness. Pam suggesting that when she sees certain hexagrams in an unrelated state, she finds they 'mean' the opposite of what one would presume.

So here would be a question: could a hex with no moving lines be compared to a "reversed" tarot card? Where you ask the additional question "what would it take to bring this relationship back into balance?"

[pam]

Hey Willow -
Now that is an interesting idea--I don't know much about the tarot (or make that nothing about it except I have had it done for me). I like the idea of asking the additional question - and often do. Sometimes there is no way to help it become more balanced (some form of 39 is one of the answers in that direction). I got that answer 39 to 53 myself about how to change a situation this morning. Now I am just awaiting the development. Not possible, I guess. But two days ago I received an example of my version of 53 meaning 'a development' rather than gradual progress. I asked how my husband would be feeling that evening and got 29-7. I couldn't think why so I asked, "why would he feel that way?" and got 37 - 53. Now if this was an indication of gradual progress for the family (firm seclusion within the family)I might also expect this throw, but with 29 - 7 being how he would feel I knew it was not progress, but a development. That evening we received a call from my husband's mother saying his dad had tested positively for diabetes. His health has been going downhill for several years and this is now the result of poor diet, drinking, no exercise, etc. Truly a development in the family. And certainly not progress. He is a stubborn man who will probably not follow dietary and alcohol restrictions, no matter how much his family loves and tries to help him.

In this case the hex 7 seems to mean 'mourning' in the sense that he knows what his father is like. He isn't very optimistic that his dad will live long with this condition.

[willow]

I'm reading this quickly Pam, so I'm sure I haven't caught all of what you were trying to say, but my take on the 53 image - the tree up there on the mountain - is that the tree must take on every possible development, from the gradual to the sudden, the mildest shift to the greatest shock, with the same steady equanimity.

A bolt of lightning thwacks it in two...it grows back from the roots... A teensy shift in climate brings the spring later...it waits to put out its leaves...

Also, it seems that the "sudden" development in this case is actually a coming out into view, a stating, of the outcome of gradual progress that has been underway for some time. The tree that is father-in-law has been acting thus and so on his mountain for some time, and now the impact of that constant steady direction on his part is manifest in this "sudden" diagnosis.

[lindsay]

Hi everyone!

I don?t understand everything I?ve read in this wonderful string, but I can?t seem to let it go by without throwing a few more beans in the pot.

The issue of unchanging-stable-lucid-prime-uniform-autonomous hexagrams always reminds me of a problem I used to worry about a lot: How can a divination system consisting of only 64 symbols address the whole vast range of human experience? I realize the moving lines increase the number of available answers up to 4,000 plus ? but today, at the very moment I write this, the US Census Bureau estimates the population of the world to be 6,253,216,161 people, each with her or his own individual personalities, lives, and problems. Let?s say every person in the world has at least two big problems they are trying to resolve ? this means there are more than 12.5 billion big problems at this very moment! Theoretically, the Yi should have something to say about all of them. How can this be?

Related to this situation is the fact that the Yi is a ?closed? system. That is, the 64 hexagrams represent every possible combination of six occurrences (6 lines) of two variables (Yin/Yang). Mathematically, this is expressed as 2 to the 6th power. The hexagram system is complete ? you would not be able to add a new hexagram even if you wanted to. Practically speaking, what this means is that the Yi was designed to represent everything in the world, every possible human situation or manifestation of events (there are statements in the Dazhuan to confirm the Yi?s intention of representing totality). The Yi has an answer for every question. Because of its structure, it cannot draw a blank, shrug its shoulders, or express uncertainty.

I know nothing about tarot, but I have heard some tarot readers use a deck with a single blank card. The blank card represents our human inability to understand everything. Some things we cannot know, some questions do not have answers, some issues are completely undecided. There are, in effect, holes in the net of Fate. Or, like Job, we are sometimes forced to admit we cannot understand the mind of God.

There are no open doors, no blank areas, no holes in the Yi. It has an answer for everything. In a way, this seems a little presumptuous to me.

Now consider the conceptual content of the 64 hexagrams ? are these the 64 ideas or symbols you would choose to represent everything in the world? I have to confess I can see no underlying system or logic in the selection of the traditional meanings for the symbols. They appear to be absolutely arbitrary. I can think of a hundred ideas that seem at least as relevant to life-situations as the ones in the Yi.

Problems like these come up in the context of unchanging hexagrams because these hexagrams force us to consider the Yi?s elemental symbols in their simplest, most compelling form.

What do you think?

Lindsay

[willow]

Good questions Lindsay. When you were describing the structure of the 64 hexagrams, it brought to mind my grandmother's little facet-glass that I loved to look through as a child. It had a little eye-hole on one end, and a multifacet cut crystal on the other end, so when you looked through it, whatever you were looking at was broken up into many tiny repeating images of itself. I kind of look at the IC in the same way, as a focusing/refracting tool, through which you look to see the problem in a different way.

As far as the blank card idea, I do something both similar and different with what are called "Medicine Cards." (Jamie Sams) It's a deck depicting a range of animals that are significant in Native American thought, such as Bear, Eagle, Coyote, Frog, Dragonfly, etc. The deck comes with some blank cards for another purpose, but one happened to accidentally get in the mix and I drew it one day. At first I was stumped by this inscrutable blankness, but then it came to me, "This is the Human card". Ever since, I've left that blank one in, with that interpretation.

[lindsay]

Dear Willow,

I really like your idea that the Yi seems to work like your grandmother?s kaleidoscope. A very elegant and thought-provoking image. I can tell it?s going to stick in my mind for the rest of the day like a catchy tune. Thank you.

I suppose it?s heresy to even think about this, but I wonder what would happen if a ?blank card? were introduced into Yi divinations? These days I rarely use coins or stalks for divining; instead I use the method based on selecting one of 16 marbles or beads. What if one extra marble ? perfectly clear and without color ? were introduced, making 17 marbles in all? This marble would be rarely drawn, but it would indicate uncertainty.

Each marble drawn represents a line in the emerging primary hexagram. A clear marble would indicate that the value of the line cannot be determined with certainty ? perhaps it is Yin, perhaps it is Yang. This would increase the complexity of the reading, because every clear marble would double the number of possible primary and relating hexagrams ? and worse, because uncertainty is involved, there would probably be some kind of relationship between the two sets of answering hexagrams (one set with clear line = Yin, one with clear line = Yang). I am also assuming there would be no moving or old clear lines. It would be necessary to introduce some limiting rules, I think, or one?s brain might burn out trying to relate all the possibilities in a coherent interpretation.

In fact, I guess this is a really stupid, even dangerous idea. No one should attempt to try this without adult supervision. It could be hazardous to your health.

I am not responsible,
Lindsay

[willow]

I have had situations where a coin rolled off the table and landed on edge in a crack or next to a piece of furniture. And head-scratching moments having miscounted sticks somewhere and come down to an impossible remainder.

For me, it does seem to bring the whole process to a halt, and I will usually just abandon the casting and the question - taking it as a sign that something about my attention or the situation is not ready for a reading. Given this reaction, I guess I take uncertainty appearing in the reading as carrying the message, "look within yourself some more, look at what you already know, before you seek additional input/perspective.

[lindsay]

Actually I got a little sidetracked here - there was something else I wanted to say about Pam?s single hexagrams carrying their opposite or negative meaning. This seems a natural enough notion to me. I?m only surprised Pam limits this phenomenon to six or seven hexagrams. Why not all of them?

When I get a single hexagram like 27, I feel the Yi is blowing a trumpet in my ear and saying, ?The subject to think about is Nourishment!? This is Hilary?s Emphatic Hexagram. But what does the ?subject? of Nourishment include? Doesn?t it also include the need for Nourishment, the desire for Nourishment, the lack of Nourishment, the absence of Nourishment? (I think Pam already made this point.) That is, isn?t the whole idea of no-Nourishment included in the idea behind hexagram 27? And isn?t that also true of all the other hexagrams as well in their singular form?

I think there is a little confusion here between negatives and opposites. Hexagram 41 (Decrease) and Hexagram 42 (Increase) are opposites, are they not? However, a negative situation in Hex 41 does not necessarily imply Hex 42. In other words, no-Decrease does not automatically mean Increase. It is possible to have a situation where there is no decrease, things are stable or stagnant, and that is an important issue. Perhaps decrease is desirable (one?s taxes), perhaps it should be avoided (one?s income). Either way Hex 41 is the appropriate response to flag Decrease as the issue at hand.

Another example of this confusion between opposites and negatives is the old battle cry, ?If you?re not for us, you?re against us!? This is false reasoning. It is possible to be not-for-us without being against-us ? in other words, one could be neutral. Just because I?m not for strawberry ice cream (I like chocolate) doesn?t mean I?m against it (I?ll eat it in a pinch). So the negative form of hexagrams simply means there is a significant lack or absence of that hexagram?s quality in the situation. This principle seems much more widely applicable than merely to Pam?s handful of hexagrams, but she is speaking from experience, and that must be respected in all cases.

As for the use of absolutes and near-absolutes like ?never? and ?always? and ?rarely? and ?usually,? my advice would be: Never say ?never.? Always avoid ?always.? And do not be negative.

Everything I say is false,
Lindsay

[louise]

hmmm, changing the subject just slightly, seems to me sometimes even with moving lines the outcome of an event can be the very opposite of what I Ching says. How do you square it in your own mind when the I Ching seems to be completeley wrong. I asked about something recently receiving 14,1,and 2, and took it to be completley positive, go ahead signal. The outcome was infact disastrous, leaving me muttering to myself 'why did you tell me that Yi'.
This doesn't exactly put me off using the I Ching,
but I never know quite how to figure it out in my own mind when it seems so wrong. Was I just not communing well that day ? Did I not concentrate enough ? If it seems to be completely wrong to you, if it ever does, what do you tell yourself ?

[heylise]

I read Lindsay?s mail with huge pleasure. I cannot imagine that hexagrams are good or bad. They are neither positive nor negative (or they are both), and it was great to hear someone else say so too. Usually I only hear about good and bad.
I think it all depends on the situation, your reaction, the possibilities. It is not a feature of any hexagram to be positive or negative. If they were, they could not fill in the entire room from one end of universe to the other. Because I think they do. And not side by side, but everyone everywhere. Only the emphasis can differ from place to place, moment to moment.

When I cast a hexagram, the answer tells me which one should be looked at for this question. I cannot even split them up in ?initial one comes first, relating one later?. I throw them both in the darkness in my head, and then a solution emerges. Very often it is indeed the first one which gives an image of what is at hand, and the second one what the result might look like. But sometimes it is the other way round ? if there is a beginning and end at all, which is often not the case.
So hex.14 for me does not mean there will be a good outcome, just that this time asks for a kind of attitude 'like 14'. If I can grasp some 14, then I might cause a good result (I might, not the Yi). If it is not 14 but 23 or 12, then I obviously should get some 23 or 12 into my mind and actions - for a good result.
I look to the lines for some details, some advice on actions or attitude. But not for a judgment or even prognostication.

Someone wanted to throw over the king (I can search for the book with the name and date, but I don?t think it is important, it was an ancient Chinese), he asked the Yi and got 2.5. He thought ?it is very good?, but his friend told him it could only be good if his action was right. He did not listen, and all turned out disastrous.

LiSe

[lindsay]

Dear Louise and LiSe,

That is a good story, LiSe. I think it is the nature of all oracles to be ambiguous, and sometimes we are blinded to their true message by our own burning desire for a certain result or our own thick-headedness.

The Greek historian Herodotus tells a famous story about the fabulously rich King Croesus of Lydia, who thought he could take advantage of unsettled conditions in Persia to conquer that powerful country. Croesus decided to consult the most famous oracle in the world, the Pythia at Delphi, about his chances for success. He sent lavish gifts to the oracle along with his question, should he attack the Persians? The Pythia answered thus: if Croesus attacked Persia, he would destroy a great empire. Croesus, of course, took this oracle as immensely favorable, and marched into Persian territory. Unfortunately the Lydian army was decisively defeated and Croesus himself was made prisoner by the new Persian king Cyrus. And so it happened just as the oracle at Delphi predicted: Croesus attacked the Persians, and destroyed a mighty empire ? his own.

There are many stories like this about oracles in the West and the East. The point is not that oracles are obscure and treacherous, but that we often do not want to consider more than one course of action. No oracle can help us if we do not listen.

I do not want to suggest that Louise?s problem never happens when the oracle is approached sincerely. Personally I am very reluctant to follow the Yi against my better judgment. I try to make sure the Yi is my tool rather than my master. Of course, there are many reasons why an oracle might fail: mistaken interpretations, changing conditions, confusion about timing, unclear questions, and so on. But I do not like to make excuses for the Yi. If the Yi fails me, I prefer to face that fact rather than spin a lot of rationalizing theories. I think it is always a good idea to be cautious with the Yi, especially if the stakes are high, just as you would be with any personal advisor. As LiSe likes to point out again and again on her wonderful site, we all have the responsibility to be our own persons.

Sorry, Louise, I cannot honestly say the Yi is never wrong. Even the Yi does not claim to be infallible. In fact, the Yi does not make any claims at all. You can take it or leave it. Your choice. And that is why I no longer worry about those intellectual problems I brought up above in this thread. When I use the Yi, that is my choice.

Best wishes,
Lindsay

[louise]

I do agree with the points you have both made, it is only that in my experience Yi is normally an incredibly accurate prognosticator (if there be such a word ?). In my experience Yi does have great predictive power. Of course I still think it is important to rely on ones own judgement also, we would be fools not to. I suppose it sort of leads back to the question of who we feel we are talking to when we consult. In another thread somewhere Hilary states she believes it is God ! That raises the question for me if one thinks one is communing with God then how can that be infallible.
You need not be sorry Lindsay, I was not wanting you to say Yi was infallible - it would be pretty scary if it was - or if we based all our life decisions on it.
As for intellectual problems i thought thats what we used this site for often ?

[lindsay]

Dear Louise,

You certainly know how to get a response.

(1) The Yi as prognosticator. I think this is very controversial. Traditionally the Yi has always been seen as way to see into or know the future, but nowadays this is not a view held by all. Stephen Karcher, for example, stays clear of actually claiming the Yi can give us certain knowledge of the future. Instead, the Yi is seen as an imaginative space for dealing with the present. The whole issue is maddeningly difficult to talk about because people are often not entirely honest in the implications they encourage with their language. This is especially true, in my opinion, of Jungians who use terms that appear to say one thing but actually mean something quite different. Or nothing at all. Actually, I believe this is a charge that was often brought against Jung himself in his own lifetime. Jung's famous Preface to Wilhelm's I Ching is a masterpiece of waffling on this and other issues. If we think we can expect a simple straightforward yes-or-no answer to the question, "Does the Yi predict the future?," I'm afraid we will be much disappointed.

On the other hand, there are many people now who are able to speak from direct experience with Yi divination. In my opinion, these are the only voices worth listening to. If you can look me in the eye and say you have found the Yi to be an accurate guide to the future, and perhaps give me some evidence to support your intuitive judgment, then I believe you. But if you ask me if I think rationally the Yi can or does predict the future, I would say it cannot and does not. In my experience, you will not find many people willing to be so blunt.

(2) Who are we talking to? We've discussed this point on Clarity before. Who knows the answer? As much as I admire and agree with Hilary's ideas, I absolutely deny the Yi has anything to do with God. That's my opinion. If we are talking to anyone, I believe we are talking to ourselves. In most cases. I do not deny the Yi can be a vehicle for spiritual or mystical experience, but I wonder how commonly this really occurs? I'm afraid I'm rather skeptical about Yi divination as a spiritual exercise.

(3) The end of intellectual issues? I certainly hope not, Louise. I'm not good at much else. I hope we will continue to examine the Yi from every possible angle. And I hope you will continue to pursue the truth as stubbornly as you always have here at Clarity. I'm definitely one of your biggest fans.

Lindsay

[louise]

Cor Lindsay I'm having a minor identity crisis here - I've never thought of myself as a stubborn pursuer of truth before http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif. I would go as far as to bluntly say the Yi can predict the future - given that the future is mostly in some way affected by our actions now. I do not see knowing the future as especially mystical or impossible. I think it all has to do with viewpoint or perspective. An old example is...I may be walking down the road approaching a corner I cannot see around, because of my viewpoint here at ground level. Approaching from the other side of this corner is an old friend. Someone who is watching, say from a window above will be able to say (as I can't)'aha, she is about to meet up with that old friend, unless of course she stops to look in that shop window and misses the friend completeley'. There would be nothing mystical about that persons knowledge, they just have a different perspective that enables them to see more of the situation than me.
I do believe we can access states of consciousness in which we can see more of the picture, that presumably is what clairvoyants do, and what we often do ourseves. I quote from a book i was reading today..
"we fly high up and we have perspective....We have perspective! We see every fork and choice and crossroad. But the lower we fly the more we lose perspective. And when we land, our perspective on all the other choices is gone! We focus on detail: hourly minute-ly detail..."
You say traditionally the Yi has been a way to see and know the future, but that now it is mostly seen as 'an imaginative space for dealing with the present'.
I don't care what its mostly seen as. More often than not seeing Yi as only an imaginary space means one can see only what one wants and actually loses all respect for the being of the Yi itself. Whilst it can be used in this way I guess my leaning is actually more to the traditional use. For some reason i do believe Yi evolved to give us this incredibly useful function of seeing the wider picture. It gives us an inkling of the results of our actions.
To me the most obvious answer with Yi is the one I take first and it is often very stark and accurate. When i talk to Yi I connect with something outside my box like here and now consciousness, and often it helps by showing me things I would'nt have known.
I am somewhat insulted by you saying that if I give you examples you may believe me. I really don't care whether you believe me or not - I am not craving your validation. I think it is absolutely fine that we all use I Ching in very different ways - and with very different ideas behind our practise.

I feel as if I am looked down on because I say the Yi has predictive validity. I do believe that if this is denied, Yi is denied as are the generations that have used Yi in this way.

When I am talking to someone I do not want to be their imaginative space - I want them to hear ME.
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/vexed.gif

[julianne]

Hello there all-

Lindsay - you are a joy to read! That story of the Pythia was a gem. What an interesting me you've got there.

Louise - I hear your me. You speak very clearly! I have enjoyed your musing on the prognosticative quality of Yi, can I share what me thinks?

I am also a tarot reader, so this colours my response (all biases clear and counted.) I believe that the Yi is predictive of the most likely outcome given the current construction of forces. I see the hexagram(s) as the construct(s) of the current conditions, and the movement to (or station of) the only possible outcome given these. For all you semanticists so vigilant on the only ever and musts - I understand this to be Tao physics, that there are some (relative) givens.

Unfortunately/fortunately your fortunes necessary change when new material/conditions are added to the environment, and the hearing of the Yi response presumes, with new info, that a new possibility for movement (or not) is available which was not previously. Soooooo.....the future has been predicted based on the Yi tao, which can become questionable if the response has shifted the circumstances.

All replies lovingly entertained.

ps - I caught myself use the word stationary to describe the hexagram with no moving lines. In astrology, a planet becomes stationary prior to changing movement from direct to retrograde and back again. Hmmm.

Blessings,
Julianne

[heylise]

At this moment I seem to have lost something called an opinion. I read those mails, all very different, all excellent, and I agree totally with all of them!

Hilary?s God ? great, exactly what I think too.
Lindsay ? I could not agree more.
Louise?s wider picture ? I loved your mail, for its insight and personality
Julianne?s Yi-tao ? and the Yi not only predicting but changing the future as well (and I will add stationary to my little list of terms)

Maybe the best answer right now is: Hilary thank you for a mailing list like this one. And thanks everybody for sharing the beauty of his/her ideas (soul?).

LiSe

[julianne]

I too send heartfelt gratitude to Hilary for our company. What joy in meeting minds! Twas a wise force once said 'knowledge should be a refreshing and vitalizing force. It becomes so only through stimulating intercourse with congenial friends with whom one holds discussions and practices application of the truths of life. In this way learning becomes many sided and takes on a cheerful lightness (!), whereas there is always something ponderous and one-sided about the learning of the self taught.'

But this is an prayerful aside.

Regarding the notion of the stationary hexagram, I have asked the Yi to speak on this: What is signified by the hexagram with no moving lines?

Hexagram 5, lines 1, 4, 5 moves to 32.

I find this to be consistent with the notion of stationary as it appears astrologically: The apparent halt in motion prior to a change in direction.

[candid]

A beautiful and diverse thread! Very appreciated. I?m lacking in specific opinion here, or perhaps you all have reflected a sum of my own. I?m afraid if I dig into this one it might be very long and probably redundant. Think I?ll just enjoy what has been expressed.

[louise]

Hi Julianne, great idea - never thought of asking Yi about no moving lines. The answer you got has actually bought up some new ideas in my mind, that in a way reflect an idea that Lindsay came up with above. He talked of the notion of uncertainty, suggested how would it be if there were a marble designated as 'not known' - Perhaps this is sometimes what the unchanging hexagram is.
Perhaps it is something that as yet may not even manifest. Hexagram 5 is about waiting, possibility, the event that hasn't yet happened -
Perhaps Yi is saying here the unmoving hexagram is kind of in suspension between manifest and unmanifest, a possibility that is not tangible enough as yet to give a direction on. Having said that, 5 seems to indicate waiting for something that is going to happen - the moving lines indicating where one is in the process of waiting.
What do you make of the answer you got ? I'm not sure of the meaning astrologically of a stationary planet ?

[heylise]

Ask the Yi .. of course! And a very interesting answer too.
The character xu is usually used for something you 'need'. It is the rain (or maybe sometimes the end of the rain) which is needed for the crops. So the 'stationary' character indicates what you need in a situation. And in those days you could do a lot about that: let the wu dance to make the rain fall for example. So the unchanging hexagram is certainly not a hexagram of inertia.
Heng (32) is following your own course, the course your heart dictates.
Beautiful answer.
LiSe

[lenardthefast]

Dear Lindsay,

I've already stated my opinion elsewhere in this thread, or perhaps another, as to who/what we are querying when we cast the Yi.(So I won't bore you guys with that one again. Especially when I, too, believe we are consulting with ourselves, our sub-conscious selves!) ...but, I feel compelled to respond to some other things. I never thought of Jung as 'waffling' in the preface to Wilhem. I wonder if you would mind citing a particular spot in said preface where you perceive this as happening? I'm requesting this info for the purpose of my own education/edification. I did'nt go back and reread it as I have this intuitive positive feeling towards it, based on a long-ago reading and would appreciate the opportunity to re-evaluate that feeling based on your input.

I've had some casts which described the future as pertains the question in such exquisite detail that as I would live that future it was similar to living in perpetual deja vu; and I've had other casts which were so obscure as to the question that I would have to re-cast. These two examples are what I believe are the extremes received when casting, the remainder existing somewhere in between. I attribute this spread as a reflection of my novice state regarding the Yi.(I recall reading an interpretation/advisement on this site posted by a gentleman whom I believe was Mr. Wu, and thinking that his entire life must be like one long deja vu experience. This honorable person was long past the novitiate state!)

I believe that an obscure or non-relating cast can at times be attributed to simple error, i.e., I/we simply read one or more of the coin tosses incorrectly, or having gotten the lines right, I/we transpose one or more lines in the hex while in the process of consulting the chart for the number, etc.


IMHO one of the most powerful tools residing in the Yi concerns the forming of the question. I have many times wanted to ask the oracle what in my mind seemed to be a very simple question; only to wind up staring at a page full of crossed-out partial questions an hour later. That 'simple question' oftimes requires a great deal of thought in making the transition from thought-picture to written words which satisfactorily express the thought/desire. In fact, I have often not had to cast after spending some time with the questions' formation. I believe that the question-forming exercise allows us to gain enlightenment as regards the 'actual/real' question versus that emotional hodge-podge of emotions and half-formed thoughts/querys which sent us scurrying for the Yi in the first place. The Yi, by requiring that we state our query as specifically as possible forces all who consult it to firstly, THINK. Thinking of how we will refine our question down to its essence causes another phenomena to occur, FOCUS. Given enough Focus, one is able to exert the WILL, and its at this point that things get heady and euphoric for me! (Doesn't happen all the time but enough to rule out coincidence, in my case!)

As to how much effect a cast might have regarding a course of action pertaining to the query? Covers the board from lots(seldom), to food for more thought(lots), to "Well, %&$# me, I totally didn't consider THAT aspect!"(seldom). OK, actually more times than I'd like to admit on that last one!


Julianne, what a concise answer. Loved the transition from C/L 4 to 5. In the translation I read, 4 is a situation where, and I quote, "You are waiting in the very center of chaos. Remove yourself immediately and unobtrusively from the situation." (Which led me to wonder if the Yi was slyly calling our multifarious comments on this subject the 'chaos'?) Line 5 states, "Your difficulties are held in abeyance now and it is a good time to relax and gain some perspective. Continue, however, in correct persistence. Good fortune." Relax/Continue, tension/relief, sounds like composing music. The music generated by our inquisitive minds?

Namaste,
Leonard

[lenardthefast]

Dear Lindsay,

Sorry, but I left the following out of my last post.

In response to your doubts about the Yis' ability to handle 'all' of the possible human situations with only 64 hexagrams I think you possibly are confusing 'number of questions'(12.5 billion) with 'subject of the question', which in the case of humans is easily covered by 64 and its resultant lines. Although we humans tend to look upon our lives as complex, in reality, the complexity we feel surrounded by, is, in most cases imposed by our inability to see the simplicity inherent in everything. So, of those billions of questions asked by querents, I'll bet that most are just variants on a few basic human concerns. Things like "Will I get laid?", "When will I meet the love of my life?", "Will this one situation be more satisfying than the others I've considered?", "Will this job offer allow me to afford more creature comforts?". Or, better yet, we can condense all of it down to its basics, 'Should I or shouldn't I'. Which would leave us with yes/no, yin/yang, creative/receptive, firm/yielding, tension/relief, etc., in other words, just that goldurned dualism again, known in some parts as 'freedom of choice'. So, if at its core, life really only has two questions, then the Yi is practically succumbing to overkill with its 64 hexagram/answers, and thats before we even consider the addition of the C/L variants!

Or not...

Namaste,
Leonard

[candid]

Greetings, friends!

Just a quick note before heading off to work.

First, I have no cognitive dissidence with Jung?s work with the I Ching. In fact, I feel entirely comfortable with his assessments.

Second, I think we have a tendency to sometimes be too analytical of our readings. We westerners are so used fast food and fast answers neatly packaged in linier boxes of logic. We?re an impatient society that sees real-time as all conclusive. I don?t view I Ching as operating within this constrictive environment.

I understand I Ching as an intuitive media, first. It speaks from the Collective Unconscious Mind (sorry Lindsay) to both our conscious and unconscious mind, or, our left and right hemisphere of brain/mind. This casts a broader landscape to the whole answer, which requires a higher vantage point of contemplation.

Its true that I Ching does ?forecast? because its inclusive of not only the present as we typically think of it, but our collective past and collective future as well. Since our will plays a key role in the development and outcome of our future, we must allow time to play out in order to understand completely the answers we receive. The length of this time varies according to how far reaching our question and answer is. If this is seen and applied in the same way we measure time in cycles, we see these time variations, I.E.: the time it takes for Mercury to orbit the sun and the time it takes Pluto to do the same. Cycles within cycles.

I personally believe that if we loosen our grip on Yi?s answers and allow events to play out, utilizing our intuitive nature, we?ll be more satisfied with the outcome.

Namaste,
Candid

[lindsay]

Hi everybody!

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger!" -- Abbie Hoffman.

Lindsay

[lenardthefast]

Hi Lindsay,

Thank you for the whimsical, possibly capricious interlude, not to mention the fine dining advice, but right now I have an appetite whetted for Jungian 'waffles'. Got any on the griddle that you would care to share?
Namaste,

Leonard

[lindsay]

?Giving one?s opinion is not always the wisest thing to do. The decision is yours, but think before acting. Very often an opinion causes only a lot of trouble and nothing else. But having one, it is very difficult to see this.?
-- LiSe, Hexagram 43, Line 4

Sorry, Leonard, I?ve given this a lot of thought, and I?ve decided I am not going to defend or even explain my opinion about Jung?s preface. You certainly are right to ask me to do so, but when I look ahead, I see nothing but trouble for all of us if we go down that road. There are trolls in that particular piece of writing I dare not wake up.

If I were you, I would not be satisfied with such excuses, and I would come away with a rather low opinion of Lindsay. This loss of face, I?m afraid, is something I?ve brought upon myself for being fool enough to write so freely in the first place. If you think I?m not sorry about the unintended effect my remarks have had on you, Louise, Candid, and everyone else I like and enjoy so much on this board, then you would be very much mistaken.

My buttocks are without skin,
Lindsay

[louise]

Dear Lindsay, I'm tantalized now, I really want to know your opinion of Jungs preface - I promise I will not get ratty with you - we should be free to express differing opinions here - otherwise there would be no life and we would all die of boredom - rot and stagnation. I'm sorry if I contributed towards silencing you - I think the medium we are using sometimes leads to lots of misunderstandings. Anyway suppose i can't force you to wake up those trolls...

[pam]

Hi all,
I haven't been keeping up here since my last post and just spent some time reading through the discussion in the last week. I think Julianne's reply from the I Ching was very good and I can think of a few examples which fit perfectly...nine years ago I had a mammogram done (my first) and was extremely nervous about it. Before I went I asked the I Ching if the results would be good and received 11 - unchanging. After the initial pictures were taken, the x-ray technologist kept me sitting in the exam room for some time and then sent the nurse back in requesting more pictures. Of course, no explanation and wild panic on my part. Then he told me I would need to see my Dr. for an explanation. I went back to my OB, who sent me to a specialist, who told me that what he saw was often representative of early cancer, and the only way to tell would be surgery.

I was scheduled for the surgery 5 days before my second son's high school graduation. The surgeon told my husband that if the walnut sized piece he took out of me showed cancer in the lab, he would want me back immediately after the graduation for a total carve up job. I pondered the meaning of "Peace" for 3 days until the results were in. Totally negative. There was no cancer at all.

Now this wasn't the same as "No Peace" but was definitely an example of "waiting - duration". So I am adding this as my meaning of the majority of the hexagrams when there is no movement. But I still feel if I ask if a certain job interview would result in a job and got 27, it would not mean waiting (for this job to bring) duration. It would mean "no nourishment".

On the subject of prediction vs. throwing the I Ching has already changed the future somewhat ... I use the I Ching for prediction accurately in almost every aspect of my life. Some things can not be changed because fate and the actions of others also have their say, but the things I see as changeable are often presented as two distinctly different answers to the same period/question/problem. One example of this is a very difficult problem I was having with my husband. The future looked alternately very bleak/very positive. Then I realized I had seen this alternation before at times and it was telling me, if I take the correct action, I can influence the outcome. Then I carefully spent the next 9 months asking at every juncture what MY correct move should be in regard to this situation. (remember, someone has said you can't change anyone else's actions, only your own). But changing my own of course changed his reactions to me and what I said or didn't say. And his own actions ended up being quite different from the way he usually chose to be, because I think my actions, as guided by the I Ching, changed his mind about what he felt was important in his life. The answers got continually more enlightening and positive and the situation has now almost passed without any major mishap. So there is certainly a way to predict the future and even to change certain aspects of it to bring a more positive outcome. I have been doing this so long, I could never doubt that the answers are guiding me to know the future and respond in the most positive way for myself and my family.

[heylise]

Lindsay, when I read your mail about Jung's waffles, I was interested. I like Jung, and I was curious about what those waffles were. I even considered reading his preface to the Yi again, looking for them. Liking someone sometimes is a habit, overlooking things, and seeing it all too pink. It is always good to re-evaluate one's opinions once in a while.
So please, go ahead.
LiSe

[bfireman]

OK- I am going home tonight and read Jung's intro for the first time. This is getting good!!! Whose scared of some little ol' trolls anyway....

"Fear needs a future to exist"
- some buddhist monk somewhere sometime...

Peace - Brian

[candid]

Linsay - I'm with Louise, Leonard and LiSe all the way. I find it interesting that you have a different take on Jung than some here do. I've had exactly the same response as LiSe, re-reflecting upon it to see if perhaps I've been romanced by the Jungian Stone. At this point, I'm unchanged from my original opinion, but that's all it is - my opinion.

As for your ?joyess lake humor?, I liked it! It seemed a little out of your usual neat and articulate style, but hey, sometimes we need to put a tear on the wrapping just to see what's in there.

Pam, I really liked reading about your experience and found this statement especially interesting: "Then I realized I had seen this alternation before at times and it was telling me, if I take the correct action, I can influence the outcome." This, I believe, is the direct result of activating, or as Chris would say, "enlisting" that part of you which sees intuitively. Its what gave breath and life of Yi's influence into your future. You saw the potential in the light of the choices, which the I Ching made clearer to you. Beautiful!

[louise]

I too am going to read Jungs preface again tonight, its a long long time since I read it.

[lenardthefast]

Hi Lindsay,

I certainly and sincerely hope the impression conveyed by my post was as simply an honest query. ...and also a tad lazy on my part, after reflection. So, I'll reread the preface also, and do it this time with an eye cocked towards the local Int'l House of Pancakes. ;-)) I will admit I have a Jungian bias, and after reflecting on that bias realized that I haven't actually updated any Jungian files in quite a while. Considering the massive quantities of psychedelics ingested during my Jungian period, perhaps a revisit during less intense moments might shed new light. ...'onward into the Valley of Death, rode the six hundred'!

Namaste,

Leonard

[candid]

Hi Leonard.

Interesting - Jungian bias. Many of us (like you and me) have taken the strong cocktail of Jung, I Ching, Carlos Castaneda and a bushel of Timothy Leary, back in the 60s-70s. Its good to sort through and reorganize the mix of influences to retrofit into our current position from time to time.

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger!" (but terrible guides)

Candid

[heylise]

I have been thinking about the lines of hexes with-no-moving-lines.

A line is moving when it is old or big yang or yin, ready to change into its opposite. Young yang and yin are stable, so the unmoving lines are the good ones (in Chinese they are called great and small yang and yin: maybe an indication for the big and small man?)
The moving lines show the realms where one should do something, and what, to avoid trouble. The unmoving ones don?t need attention now, no trouble there. The moving ones are the hitch, they need or tell the advice.

So I think when there are no moving lines, the hexagram just says: this is the situation, think about it. No special advice, just an overview.
Like when buying a car: the lines tell you about its good and bad points, warning you here and there, the hexagram tells you its brand: a cheap one, a fast one, a showy one. And when no line is moving, then it cannot be a real bad buy, no disasters ahead. Just consider your choice, if this is the kind you want.

..Talking about sacred cows..

LiSe

[lenardthefast]

Hi all,
Recently had a conversation with a friend who is studying Yi also. When I brought up this thread she said her experience had been that she usually got hexs with no moving lines when she had asked a question which could be answered with a yes/no answer. Anyone else have that experience?
I briefly scanned my diary of recently asked questions and found that to be the case 5 out of 7 times.

Namaste,

Leonard

[louise]

OMG I don't know what to think about hexagrams with no moving lines anymore http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/howmuch.gif
I feel a need to summarise the different possibilities we've had so far http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/howmuch.gif

I'm open to correction but I think we've so far had
1. Its a hexagram shouting at you - one thats laying down empahsis on a situation. Its very clear - words we had were, lucid, emphatic etc

2. In some cases its a hexagram thats indicating that something is not going to happen at all or it may be indicating a lack ie 27(your not nourished or you need to consider nourishment)

3. Lise's latest perspective ; no specific action required in the situation - an overview.

4.Leonards last post - a question that can be answered with a yes or no answer.

5. Not forgetting Julianne asking Yi what no moving lines meant and getting 5, lines1,4 and 5 and bringing up the idea of a stationary period as in astrology.

I haven't read back so I may have missed something there. Collectively I think we are well on the way to producing a book on the subject (lol)

Each different view I've read I've agreed with, though I was a little confused by Pams.http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/howmuch.gif. So I think each differing view has been equally valid, but am now scratching my head(really)because how can i agree with all of them, they are contradictory ! It seems to me the main
contradiction has been between 1 and 2 above.

Reading Leonards latest post, I think there may well be something in that. Though I have realised that although I record hexagrams with moving lines, I often don't bother recording hexagrams with no moving lines. To me it feels like a non answer or an answer I don't know what to make of - am rather dependent on the moving lines.

I know someones going to say 'ah well, all these different views could apply'. To which I'd say 'ah well I guess so'. Still scratching my head though http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/howmuch.gif Can someone please organize my head ? (joke}

[louise]

Oops heres one i forgot..

6. A situation thats stable. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/tiger.gif

[heylise]

For one thing, I can combine my own view very well with Julianne?s hex-5-to-32, the Yi?s own answer. After all the Yi is the expert, and I think it was a very clear answer.
Hex.5 is not just waiting, it is needing something (rain) and waiting-hoping. One of the meanings of xu is ?needing?.
You need something ? obviously, you asked the oracle because of that ? and it tells you to wait for it, and not to change your own course (hex.32). No changing lines: steady on.

Today I got hex.4 w/no-changing-lines as advice how I should treat a certain person. At first it was quite a puzzle. Who was the ignorant, or maybe even the fool, he or me? And who was the sage who was sought after by the ignorant? After pondering it for some time, I decided that no lines meant in this case that the entire meaning of the hexagram applied to all, both him and me. He was a fool and a sage, and me too. It worked wonderful, nothing got pinned down, and what looked like a difficult situation turned into a lot of fun for both of us. I did not tell him about my oracle, but he was acting one moment like a child, the next he was a sage, then a fool, as if he was deliberately acting out all sides of hex.4. And because I was prepared, I could join in at all the right moments.

Namaste
LiSe

[louise]

Well yes LiSe, on reflection I see your view and Juliannes cast are complimentary.

[bfireman]

Any trolls around??? Come out, come out wherever you are...

Anyone else ever have the experiences Jung relates on page xxxi of his forward to W/B I-Ching? He states, "If for instance a person finds himself in a confusing situation he may himself appear in the oracle as the speaker. Or, if the question concerns a relationship with another person, that person may appear as the speaker." Personally, I have never had the expereince that "I" am talking to myself, or that another person as object of inquiry is speaking through the I-ching, but this is quite possibly because my mind has not been open to such ideas. Anyone???

namaste - Brian

[kts]

Dear Brian,
I think I've just had an example of another person 'speaking' through I Ching, that is, their views being expressed through a hexagram. My aunt has been acting as a mentor to me on a relationship problem. As I have not been able to report any dramatic progress to her, I asked I Ching, "She's expecting to hear some news. What do I say to her?". The answer was H64 'Not Yet Across' with moving line 4 (which actually promises eventual success), giving resultant hexagram 4. Why did I get H4? Possibly the 'Sage' in this case is my aunt who has already given me quite a bit of advice. It doesn't always have to be I Ching itself speaking through this hexagram.

[louise]

Hello everyone its 'hurricane louise' here - hee hee. No its not its mild mannered/reasonable louise today (for now). Last night feeling intensley worried about my finances - which are desperate - I asked Yi to comment on my financial situation and - you guessed it - got 14 !!! Wealth, no moving lines !! I have no idea what to make of that ? There is literally not a penny in my pot. Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated. Pam says its about letting go of something - theres nothing left to let go..OMG

[heylise]

The image of 14 is a hand (the 'big' part is a big man, or someone making the gesture of anglers: the one that I threw back was THIS big), but the hand meant in old times not only one's own hand, having much. It was often God's hand, and its meaning was 'blessings', or better for you yet: receiving blessings.
So don't despair, it might mean that something is coming your way.

Still another possibility: possessions are not only worldly goods, but also mental assets. Like a talent to be happy, to name the best one.

Looks like a small consolation, and when someone offers this one when you cannot pay the rent, it is difficult not to throw this person out of the door.

Don't worry, I am used to hurricane-people, I even like them, and being digital it will be difficult to throw me or anything at me.

LiSe

[louise]

Thanks LiSe, i do feel pretty blessed now, just not with money - yet - who knows whats around the corner. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif

[louise]

I've noticed 14 mentions modesty also. Strange as I've thrown modesty, 15 so often with regard to money in the past.

[willow]

Hi Louise,

Just a couple of quick thoughts. One is that perhaps Yi's comment is to remind you that wealth, possessions are something that pass through you. They are not useful when arrested in their movement, only when moving. Thus, instead of merely looking into the empty pot, look at the whole cycle by which the pot fills and empties.

Wilhelm says about the 5th line, "The weak fifth line occupies the place of honour and all the strong lines are in accord with it. All things come to the man who's modest and kind in a high position...How is it possible that the weak line has power to hold the strong lines fast and to possess them? It's done by virtue of unselfish modesty." Then there is the idea of making an offering. To me, it sort of leads to the question, "What is the wealth FOR?" and suggests that the immediate answer - paying the rent, etc. is not a big enough perspective to be able to see the whole cycle of blessing. Mother Theresa. "Consider the lilies of the field."

Perhaps the Yi-comment is asking you to consider what you are devoted to, and what is devoted to you? Also, maybe find where it is in your life that "letting go" (in the sense of easy generosity) still is operating (because you feel yourself connected at both ends to a cycle: receiving, and giving). Maybe that won't turn out to be the cycle that gets the rent paid, but at least in contemplating its existence, you can see something else about the rent-cycle that is helpful.

[louise]

Thankyou Willow, that is such a thought provoking response you have given me. I've read it over a few times because the ideas you are expressing are quite subtle - I think you have expressed some ideas I was unable to articulate. What you said here was especially resonant with me

To me it sort of leads to the question "What is the wealth FOR" and suggests the immediate answer - paying the rent, etc is not big enough to see the whole cycle of blessing

It appears to me on the face of it that things like rent, bills etc are all I need the money for, yet I know exactly what you mean. Wealth or the lack of it does seem to operate or be part of a much bigger cycle. I am going to contemplate the wealth cycle. Thankyou for helping me see this. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[willow]

You're welcome! It's been something I've been thinking about too recently.

[pam]

Louise,

Great comment by Willow...I just checked back in here after not looking since my last post. I do want to reassure you that I received the same answer to a question about finances back in August I think (I was laid off from my job designing software the August before and had only managed to find temporary jobs since then, and was unemployed at the time). I also threw many other things at various times, but that particular throw made me think I had to let go of the idea of needing money and focus on what I could do to make my family's life better and less stressful. So I put more effort into my son's homework and spent time hiking with my husband and the dog and tried to stop stressing about it.

Then I started asking, 'what can I do now to get a job' or 'where should I look (online, newspaper, friends, etc.)' and also 'if I can't get a permanent job now, should I volunteer to help somewhere and maybe get more connections that way?'. I don't know your situation, but sometimes you can be lead to the right result if you know where to look and how to spend your time. Do you have a partner to help with the finances? I hope things are going to clear up for you because here in Silicon Valley I know so many people out of work, out of luck, and running out of money. Ask the Yi what you SHOULD do maybe and then try to do that. Sometimes that question brings a gradual improvement if you can understand the path to follow.

I just got my old job back a week ago last Monday, so even though in August my coffers were still draining away I am at least employed again and hopefully if this little startup gets more money in February, my contract will be turned into a permanent position again.

[louise]

Hi Pam, thanks for that. When I ask about working, earning i seem to come up with 6 line 4 often, which i discussed in another thread. It always seems to point to withdrawal, renewal in oneself which is absolutely fine by me, except you don't get money for staying home and meditating LOL. But I don't think I've asked Yi the question you suggested so I shall go and do that. Working isn't working for me right now, and Yi seems to say thats fine, thats right. So I ask okay then what about money and often get 15.
I've been going round in circles with these questions for months now - maybe time to get a new angle on the questions. Thanks for your concern and I'm glad you are getting back on your feet again.

[pam]

Hey Louise,
Same hexagram I got repeatedly!!!! Maybe the conflict is something else though...in my case I was also facing a difficult situation with my husband, who IS employed but hates his job and is actively looking for another. The only problem with that is that for the last six years every change in job has brought some heavy new romantic interest, to the point where I was thinking I had no patience for it anymore. Even though he doesn't actually have affairs, he becomes so distracted by these women that he treats me like a stranger. Just this year I have finally seen some dramatic improvement and the man I used to love has appeared again - I'd almost forgotton what he was like!!! So I am hesitant to have him move on again and repeat the cycle.

So in my case the problem was to gently convince him of the value of our relationship and the destruction he causes by these other fantasies. And to throw the I Ching every time he thought there was an opportunity for a move - sometimes he has requested me to to - sometimes he has bucked at the restriction it puts on him...but I think he has finally realized that what the I Ching says about him is true. (He would never admit this to me, however.) The last interview he had (in August) I warned him he shouldn't take the job because 5 - 31 and 51 - 31 were certainly not good indicators. Sure enough, he went on the interview, the woman and he struck it off famously, she spent hours telling him her life story and he came back and acted like a teenage idiot for about 3 days. Then she called and offered him the job and he by then realized from my looking at him like he wasn't fooling anyone (is there an icon for that) that he would be in deep trouble if he was working around this woman every day. He refused it. (Unfortunately it meant a rather big salary increase).

So I guess the "conflict" I was supposed to "disperse" was the conflict of him working in another situation where this would happen. Now I am getting answers that the coast is clear - he has changed the way he thinks about his marriage and his life somewhat. And I got called back to work!! Hard to guess EXACTLY what the Yi is saying, but I had this one figured out after that incident and had to use the same logic with him a few more times. It could have also meant that if I had taken a job before then, I might have missed throwing about his job and the results would have been another year or more of estrangement.

[louise]

Good Grief Pam, you must have the patience of a Saint - still at least you say hes improving. Strange that you had 6,4 aswell during your 'wealth' crisis. Yi and me have got some more talking to do. S/he has been very patient with me lately, giving me the same answers over and over. I can imagine Yi rolling her eyes to heaven, sighing and saying 'oh no, not her again, if I've told her once I've told her a million times'. Hope you have a happy Xmas (I'd keep him indoors if I were you)http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/mischief.gif

[lenardthefast]

Hi All,

Through the kind auspices of Lindsay and translations of Thomas Merton I believe I might have found something with which we may still beat gently upon this dead horse. The following has a great deal to say about action/inaction, and since it derives also from Asian esoterics I thought it might help shed some light upon Hexs with no moving lines. With your kind permission i humbly submit the following from Chuang Tzu via T. Merton,(Where the sage is mentioned, substitute the Yi. Lines 19 and 20 I found to be especially pertinent)

Action & Non-Action



The non-action of the wise man is not inaction.

It is not studied. It is not shaken by anything.

The sage is quiet because he is not moved,

Not because he wills to be quiet.

Still water is like glass.

You can look in it and see the bristles on your chin.

It is a perfect level,

How much more the spirit of man?

The heart of the wise man is tranquil.

It is the mirror of heaven and earth ~

the glass of everything.

Emptiness, stillness, tranquillity, tastelessness,

Silence, non-action: this is the level of heaven and earth.

This is the perfect tao.

Wise men find here their resting place.

Resting, they are empty.

From emptiness comes the unconditioned.

From this, the conditioned, the individual things.

So from the sage's emptiness, stillness arises:

From stillness, action. From action, attainment.

From their stillness comes their non-action, which is also action

And is, therefore, their attainment.

For stillness is joy. Joy is free from care

Fruitful in long years.

Joy does all things without concern:

For emptiness, stillness, tranquillity, tastelessness,

Silence and non-action

Are the root of all things.



~ Chuang Tzu

Interpreted by Thomas Merton

~ in Thomas Merton, The Way of Chuang Tzu

Namaste,
Leonard