Uncannily responsive answers that are nonetheless wrong: What is Yi doing?

[greenowl]

This is something I've noticed twice in the past few weeks, once in a personal reading and once in this thread (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5177.html?1126633899) of Susan's:

A question is asked; Yi gives a reading that seems to be wonderfully on point, but turns out to be disconcertingly off-base.

What is going on here?

SUSAN'S READING
<u>Background</u>: Susan's gas stove wouldn't light. She's new to gas stoves, and didn't know if it was out of fuel or if something else was wrong with it.

<u>Question (paraphrase)</u>: Why was the oven making a clicking noise?

<u>Answer</u>: 50.2, The Cauldron > 56, The Wanderer

Line 2 says, 'There is food in the Ting. My comrades are envious, but they cannot harm me. Good fortune.'

<u>The uncannily responsive part</u>: If Yi really wanted to deliver the message that Susan's stove had plenty of fuel, this is a really good line to use.

<u>The 'wrong' part</u>: The gas company determined that Susan was, indeed, OUT of fuel.

<u>Followup</u>: One of Susan's biggest anxieties here was paying the repair bill. Perhaps Yi meant to allay her fears by praising her financial management ability. Susan said that makes sense to her.

<u>Problem</u>: Of the various ways Yi could have legitimately addressed this question, why pick a line whose most obvious interpretation, in context, is the opposite of the truth?


GREENOWL'S READING
<u>Background:</u> I noticed a small lump above my cat's right eye. I thought it could very well be harmless, like the cyst the vet examined on his forehead a couple years ago, but I certainly wasn't sure. The complication is that I'm low on funds myself (after a very major car repair), and I'd just as soon put off vet visits for a month or two IF IT'S SAFE.

<u>Question:</u> What should be my attitude about taking Kitty to the vet as soon as possible for this lump?

('As soon as possible' might be vague without knowing what was in my mind. I meant 'as soon as I can possibly make an appointment', i.e. within a few days. 'As soon as I can afford it better' would have been the flip side of my question.)

<u>Answer:</u> 26.4, The Taming Power of the Great > 14, Great Treasures

Line 4 says (Wilhelm), 'The headboard of a young bull. Great good fortune.'

The translation I was using goes even further: 'Attaching a plank of wood to the brow of this young bull will stunt the growth of his horns. Such foresight brings great fortune.'

<u>The uncannily responsive part</u>: is obvious, I'm sure, in the context of a lump on my cat's 'brow' which might need to be 'stunted' lest it 'grow.'

<u>The 'wrong' part</u>: It was clear to me that I should hurry kitty to the vet. I asked Yi some follow-up questions about seeing a new vet. (The man we've seen for years is a fine vet, wonderful with the kitties, and I like him, but I think I rub him the wrong way. One of those 'things'...being in his office seems to bring every ounce of dunderhead out of me http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/footinmouth.gif.)

The readings got rather inexplicable. Since I couldn't imagine what objection Yi would have to this follow-up, I began to wonder if I'd gotten off on the wrong track in the first place. Maybe 26.4 was telling me I was being too aggressive - which is a meaning of the line that makes great sense in my life. I'm well known for catastrophizing things.

So I checked with Yi, 'How likely is it that you're talking about the lump above Kitty's eye?'
Answer: 63.2.4, After Completion > 43, Break-through

Line 2: 'The woman loses the curtain of her carriage / Do not run after it / On the seventh day you will get it. LiSe mentions not losing your dignity by chasing after your dignity.

Line 4: 'The finest clothes turn to rags / Be careful all day long.' LiSe talks about staying flexible so you don't get stuck.

Seemed that Yi was repeating a theme to me: Don't run around in a panic; stay flexible; don't get stuck in your 'fixed' ways of thinking and acting.

<u>Problem</u>: Yi has MANY ways to say 'calm down.' So why pick the one which is almost GUARANTEED to make me do the opposite?

<u>Followup</u>: Haven't taken Kitty to vet yet (this reading was about 3 weeks ago), so no medical verdict yet.

What do you folks make of readings like these? Thanks for your help!

[kevin]

Good point... been pondering this since Susan's thread...

Just a contribution.. (it is late here) but hopefully opening this up...

The Yijing is, to some degree, limited by its text.

It was never designed, as far as I know, to answer questions on technology and diagnosis.

Is it possible that its language (text)inherantly limits it here?

I know that when I ask questions about very complex social situations or re-development of ideas and trends (change) it is invariably spot on...' cept those times when I get odd answers and supplementary questions indicate it is "wanting to talk about other things I may have missed.

--Kevin

[bradford_h]

K-
One might add a corrolary to your:
The Yijing is, to some degree, limited by its text.
This being:
The Yijing reader is, to some degree, limited by His text.

Can't stop encouaging people to use several translations,
and even (if you're in it for the long haul) the Chinese text.
That oughtta un-narrow things a bit.

[martin]

What I find interesting is that the answer to the question about the stove seems to be more accurate if we don't read the text of the changing line but focus on the hexagrams and the trigrams.

Hexagram 50: fire comes from wood. The changing second line is in the center of the trigram wood, which indicates that the problem is the wood, i.e. the fuel ...

The second hexagram 56 points in the same direction. From the comment of Wilhelm/Baynes:
"When grass on a mountain takes fire, there is bright light. However, the fire does not linger in one place, but travels on to new fuel."

Okay, it's easy now that I know that Susan was out of fuel http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif. But I have seen this more often. The text of changing lines can be right on spot but it can also confuse the issue.

[micheline]

I was thinking along the lines that Martin was....
(it seems more than few of us were unnerved by this seemingly inaccurate reading!).......My subsequent take was that of the cauldron 50, line 2 showed low level ....and the need for a visitor......

It could also have been that susan wasnt completely out of fuel, she was low enough to warrant the clicking noise....there was no harm in the situation as it was, it was just low....and her subsequent reading was right on, 30 to 55..she needed help( synergy) to get the bright abundant light.

Greenowl, your reading was indeed ambiguous so I can understand your dilemna...Maybe the first intuitive hit is what I would go with in a reading like that...I probably wouldve felt the Yi was saying to go and have this growth held in check. BUt it isnt a line of panic...

Anytime I ask for confirmation and get 63, I take it to mean a yes, a way of saying, "yes, this is what I meant" ...the issue was the kitty's brow but maybe it is held in check (without medical attention).......line 2 "don't worry" and line 4 "keep a close eye on it"

Well, how is kitty after three weeks?

[greenowl]

You guys are very patient to read that humongous post so thoroughly. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smile.gif Thank you for your comments.

Kevin: The Yijing is, to some degree, limited by its text... and so forth.

Bradford: The Yijing reader is, to some degree, limited by His text...

True - these points make sense to me. Not only is it limited by its 3000-year-old text (did I get its age right?), but also by the way readings are cast (primary hex-changing lines-relating hex). I think a recent thread got into that a little bit (?)

A follow-up, though (here's where I wish I had the hexagrams on the tip of my tongue like many of you do so I could cite them):

Yi often seems to have at least a few ways to present a general idea (NOT to say that the hexagrams or lines are interchangeable.)

I assume Yi 'picks' the hexagrams and lines that it most wants to pick for each reading, within the constraints you mentioned.

But, in my reading for example - [let's assume for sake of argument that I've taken Kitty to the vet and we know for sure the lump is harmless, just like the other little cyst on his head] - assuming that's true, Yi was basically telling me to 'tame' myself - stunt my 'aggressive' behavior. Relating hex 14 could either (1) mean that if I calm down, 'great treasures' will result in the form of a more pleasant frame of mind, or (2) be not the result but the context of the reading - I was worried about my bank account ('treasure'), which I'd JUST drained into car repairs - and if I tamed myself I'd save some. (Yes I feel guilty. Kitty is important and beloved. Car is just http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/irked.gif necessary. There's a difference, as you probably will understand. And I know that delaying the vet even 3 weeks could be a horrible decision http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/shame.gif. And I know the I Ching is not my doctor. With all that I'm seriously wondering why you guys are even talking to me! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/uhoh.gif)

Anyway...about the I.C. being constrained by its text: in just this reading, that's true, in ways I can easily deal with. For example, I wasn't being 'aggressive' and in need of 'taming' in the strict 26.4 sense, but I still see the point.

That kind of thing is not what I'm getting at. Given that Yi has several ways to say 'don't overreact,' it seems almost to have gone out of its way to pick the one that would be most likely to send me down the wrong path.

[This is surprisingly hard to explain! If I'm just confusing the issue please just say so and I'll try again...]

Martin,

I guess I've already hit on what you're talking about, too.

It's not that what you're saying doesn't make sense - it does - but the changing line wasn't just vague or something. Again, it's almost as if Yi picked the line MOST likely to lead us to the conclusion that fuel was NOT the problem, rather than some other reading entirely that would have made the general point to Susan that she'll manage, it's not as bad as it could be, etc.

From what I've seen, the recommended approach to any reading is to start with the 2 hexagrams and changing lines first - and go to trigrams and other associated material (nuclear/inverse/etc.) for amplification. It could be my limited education, but I've never seen it said that trigrams would overrule a changing line.

It's not just that in THIS case we have the benefit of hindsight - I don't see how ANYONE would EVER come to the correct conclusion here EXCEPT in hindsight - and then what good was the reading, and why did Yi do that?

It actually would be very nice to find out that I've completely missed something here...I'd much rather clunk my head and go 'duh' than be bewildered...

Sigh.

[greenowl]

Micheline,

Thanks for the comment. We crossed posts, and as you can see I wore my brain out writing another loooooong one so I can't do your comments justice right now, thinking wise.

I'll come back to it...just a couple things, though:

1. Good point about 'how out of fuel was Susan, actually?' I don't know - I also don't know anything about gas stoves including how, when, and why they 'click'. But I'm thinking that 50.2 isn't about not being completely empty, it's about having 'plenty,' which seems quite a stretch...?

2. If I'm understanding correctly, you're making an excellent point that no harm would really be done in either of these situations, regardless of how we interpreted them or what action we took (at least any action that didn't involve Susan blowing herself up, that is. I just mean the simple issue of 'out of fuel' as the reason for the stove not working.)

In my case, the worst that would happen if I took Kitty to the vet for a false alarm is that I'd be out some money (which I'd survive) and he'd be dragged around in the car and poked at with a needle (but he's a remarkably easygoing cat, so he'd survive.)

I'd actually thought of that, briefly, that coming to the opposite and completely wrong conclusions wouldn't really matter.

Still, why did the I Ching choose to answer as it did? Could Yi have been 'playing' with us for asking 'stupid' questions? Yi can get snippy, and oftentimes I realize I deserve it and so I don't really mind a little thwack on the head *g*.

But I just don't think either of these were really THAT kind of stupid (frivolous might be a better word) questions. Susan legitimately had no way of knowing WHAT was going on with her stove. Yi has more patience than THAT, as far as I've seen.

Sigh. (again...)

[greenowl]

BTW, in case anyone's wondering...I asked Susan (in the Friends area) if she'd mind if I made this thread using her reading as an example, and she said it was okay.

[peter]

Well, my 2 humble kopecks...

I think that Yi Jing always checks us for ability to read well and not fix on a certain level.

Why do you think that 50.2 obviously means "plenty of fuel"? Where did you find this evidence? Reading this case using "Plum Blossom", I can say that fuel is out: first hexagram shows us the original condition (in the past) - Wood for Fire (Fire here is the "body"), then Fire is used to control Metal (trigrams Qian and Dui in the nuclear hexagram 43) cook food possibly), and finally Fire is exhausted by Earth - all Wood became Earth, ergo, we have no Wood remaining, out of fuel.

Do you really think you can dictate Yi Jing which answer will be the most perfect? How many strata do you see in an answer?

About your Kitty - well, it will be better to take her (her?) to a vet. Do not hesitate. And do not let yourself be entangled by your own paranoia.

With best regards.

[susan]

This is interesting.
What is Plum Blossom?
It's my belief that the ic is never wrong it's just the interpretation that is the issue.
56 does sound like someone should come and look at it.But what does my comrades are envious , they can not harm me signify?

[susan]

PS hope Kitty is ok.

[heylise]

Stove 50.2-56

Usually I look first at the hexagrams, no lines yet. And without putting glasses on, in a vague way. Then 50 relates immediately to the stove itself, the thing you use for cooking. Hex.56 is a wanderer, "not in his own place".. not really clear, but not very much sounding like a defect.

Only after that first impression come the lines. And here Bradford's remark about the text makes sense. Which text...
Wilhelm says the comrades are envious, and they cannot harm me.
Balkin: my comrade is afflicted, but it cannot reach me.
My own: My companions are struck by disease. It cannot reach me.
Bradford: Our rivals? holds anxieties. This is not in our scope of pursuits.

If you had Balkin, you would have thought you were out of gas.. the comrade, the tank which should assist your stove, is afflicted...

LiSe

[heylise]

Most literal translation I can make of the Chinese: "Cauldron has substance. My mate (enemy) has illness (difficulty). Not able to reach me. Auspicious."

So one translator might talk about comrades, another about enemies. One about ilness, another about difficulty. And finally everyone connects the inability to reach in another way to the previous sentence. It might be the comrade who cannot - or the disease which cannot...

LiSe

[heylise]

Changed the text of 50.2 on my website...

LiSe

[kevin]

Martin
Yes to looking at the trigrams here? It is one of the places where the Yi is able to step away from the text. As with my example of 57 Wind over Wind = ?Gas. Dian a Ffarrington Hook used this approach quite a bit for more ?concrete? questions.

Brad? Well yes and no? A poor or far fetched translation can effectively destroy the sense of the hexagram. I find commentaries are often the greater evil? Either way when the hexagram and its clusters of meaning and development is lost then one is left with a broken mechanism. For I see them as something akin to that.

The No refers to this idea of the Yi as a proactive communicator. Just as we make immense efforts to communicate with others, who don?t share a language with us, by misusing the language in a way we know that they will grasp. This is often seen when someone has adopted an unusual meaning for a hexagram, perhaps from self teaching, and the Yi quite clearly gives that in a consultation as if knowing exactly how they are going to use it.

I was particularly interested in this thread as I had a particularly futile experience trying to repair my ipaq with the help of the Yi.

All in all I am beginning to think that the Yi is best not used for practical things and I am wondering whether writing down all of the possibilities on a piece of paper and using a pendulum might be more appropriate.

This might of course just be a skill limitation in me.

--Kevin

[kevin]

LiSe

I like that

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

--k

[heylise]

Does anyone know of a word which translates both mate and enemy? The meaning comes closest to "the/my other one", but that is too vague in English. And it sounds a bit awkward.

LiSe

[heylise]

When I lost some papers, Yi gave me 33.2, with the yellow oxhide. The only yellow thing I had was a big Swedish turning chair. The polished wood looked a lot like leather..
The papers were in between the lattice of the back and the pillow. Without Yi I would not have found them for months.

And when Hilary asked for fun if anyone could guess where she had hidden something in her house, I knew from Yi that you had to go to the mirror and then step out of reach of the reflection (one horse of the pair gets lost). It was the only way to reach that object...

So Yi does not reject practical questions, and not even very impractical practical questions.

LiSe

[heylise]

Thinking about Kitty: 26 is about learning from former words and deeds.
I think your experience with a former lump being harmless is important, and you are very well able to judge her condition yourself (14).

LiSe

[martin]

Practical questions ..
The IC is driving me crazy http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/crazy.gif at the moment. I'm planning a holiday and it seemed a good idea to ask the IC about the different possibilities. But it is consistently negative about everything that I come up with!
A few times hex 62 with a bird flying too high or something. Does that mean that every plane that I board will surely crash? No, it's probably metaphor, but still. Grmp! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/irked.gif

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bradford_h]

Hi LiSe-
I never saw an amicable relationship in Chou2, at least not like the ambiguity you can see in Di2, which can be a friendlier rivalry.
But neither does it need to imply enemy, or anything worse than a competitor. Match, rival, counterpart or worthy opponent can convey a kind of opposition that's a little more playful, sporting or fun. You are facing more of a peer or coequal and might at least have mutual respect.

[heylise]

Thanks Brad! I like the counterpart. And for 61.3 I think match or rival is better than "one's equal enemy", which I have.

LiSe

[heylise]

Stove saying "my counterpart has trouble".

Chuckling
LiSe

[martin]

I think you have to look at it from the perspective of the chicken or the turkey in the oven.
"The fire dislikes me, but it cannot approach me."

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[greenowl]

Hi everyone - Kitty appreciates all the kind thoughts http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif. He's very much a sweet 'people cat' who loves rubs and cuddles.

Must confess, I haven't taken him to the vet yet...anything anyone could possibly say along the lines of 'taking him should not even be a debate' - anything remotely like that - I really do fully agree with. And I ought not to be using the I Ching as a doctor - no argument.

Unfortunately (and I hate even mentioning this, believe me - it's an affront to every kind of dignity I'd like to possess) - I just can't afford it now. Even moreso now because, since the original post, they discovered an oil leak on my &amp;*%$ car which was another $110, making me worried about even getting to the end of the month. (Pretty sure it'll be okay, just not even the little slack I thought I had.)

The fact that I'm pretty convinced Kitty's lump is the same tested-and-found-harmless cyst that he has elsewhere on his head plays a large part in my decisions here. The only way I could swing taking him right now would be to ask a close friend to loan me the money. I'd do that in an instant if I was really really scared about this; otherwise it's a loathesome idea. And it wouldn't surprise me a bit if she, who has cats of her own, would look at Kitty's little lump, compare it to the other one, and say, gee, don't you think it's probably nothing?

Back to the readings...yes, different translations are important. I've benefitted greatly from reading through Wilhelm, and LiSe, and Bradford, and Legge, etc.

Peter,

The reason I think 50.2 meant 'plenty of fuel' (IF it's applied to the specific issue of fuel/no fuel and not to some other aspect of Susan's general situation) is because of the first sentence of the line: 'There is food in the Ting' (Wilhelm), where Ting = stove and gas = stove's 'food.' Bradford (if I may call him out on this) comments 'His fire and cauldron are small but sufficient, his meal sustaining and hot." My own personal experience with 50.2 is it often comes up in contexts where the 'you have enough' interpretation makes sense (sometimes in a scolding way, sometimes in a reassuring way.)

But more to the point, no one who commented at the very beginning of Susan's thread, when the 50.2 reading was all there was, thought it meant 'out of fuel.' Before Susan reported the gas company's finding, the following people either directly opined that fuel wasn't the problem, or accepted that verdict without comment: Bruce, Micheline, Hilary, and Kevin.

Speaking of Kevin...(hi!)...I've had useful readings on practical matters myself, so I'm not especially eager to think the I Ching is biased against them. Of course, I've also had readings I never understood at all (like you with the ipaq-fixing one), readings that I didn't understand at the moment of casting because they pointed to something that hadn't happened yet, readings that gave me 'funny ha ha' answers - I mean, ALL kinds of outcomes.

However, readings that seem blazingly clear (to me) and yet are proven wrong don't happen very often, which is why it got my attn. and made me do a thread.

(BTW, what ever happened with your ipaq? Did you ever find out what was wrong with it? Did you have to throw it in the trash? It might be interesting for us to hear more about it...)

LiSe,

Your interpretation about 26>14 is very reassuring and comforting to me - thank you. I found out about your site from this one, and now I check it a lot. It's a marvellously rich resource, as many others have said.

Bradford, similar comments about your site! As others have also said, how amazing that you each do SO much work and scholarship and make it available FOR FREE. (In return, may your oil pans never leak http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif)

Purrs to all from me and Kitty.

[kevin]

Hi Greenowl

As I said it might just be my facility with the Yi which is missing there.

The ipaq is now at the repairs... prob. a cracked main board... hopefully an insurance claim.

This thread was most interesting for me as I have never had much success in using it for concrete matters...

However I have found a missing person with it very easily... but could not find my lost keys until I had done some 4 or 5 readings and it was positively howling "warmer" and "cooler" as I moved around.

And a lot of success with dynamic change, also more esoteric matters.

Sorry to hear 'bout the car... life!

--Kevin

[greenowl]

Kevin,

Have had very little success with missing item readings myself!

I know what you mean about the I Ching 'howling' http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif.

Would you mind saying what you think is the most illuminating insight so far, on the topic of this thread? Asking because I'm totally muddled - if you'd rather not it's fine.

Asked about the ipaq in case we could learn something from the reading, after the fact. Such as Hilary suspects from this thread (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5176.html?1126458934) that hex 37 might refer to operating systems.

Am really quite calm and unwhiny about the car, even to myself - pleasantly refreshing mindset. Only reason I explained is so people wouldn't think I'm this lacksidaisical about my cat without (IMO) good reason.

Thanks,

GreenOwl

[hilary]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Before Susan reported the gas company's finding, the following people either directly opined that fuel wasn't the problem, or accepted that verdict without comment: Bruce, Micheline, Hilary, and Kevin.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Yes, breakfast of dog we made... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/paperbag.gif

Maybe one lesson is that if we are going to take Yi's images literally for practical stuff, we should really be scrupulously literal-minded. It's about having food in the oven, not 'food' for the oven.

Of course the Yijing was never, in all its 3,000 years, intended to replace the more 'straightforward' ways of knowing - like vets, gas men, and computer technicians. When deciding whether to go to war, you consult the generals as well as the oracle.

LiSe didn't mention, btw, that she was the only person who found my hidden object. (I didn't... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/blush.gif)

Another one from a few months back. Where's the lost mobile phone? 47, line 1, changing to 58. This one was apposite with hindsight, too. Anyone?

[freemanc]

Good reading. Loved the talking stove. Reminded me of Elizabeth Bishop's sestina (named "Sestina"): "It was to be, says the Marvel Stove."

Um, yeah, these occasional perfect, fine-grained readings that are freaking wrong. It isn't so bad if it's just for yourself. Really, it is only a problem when you are facilitating someone else's thinking something through. (And then, oh, boy, is it ever awkward.)

The oracle helps us frame OUR sense of patterns and OUR capacity for decisions, and even predictions.

If one has an "talent" for large, symmetrical and totally cockamamie theories, (and who doesn't sometimes??), then this talent, or anti-talent, is going to be made concrete, and perhaps worsened by divination.

And I really want to agree with Bradford on having a friendship with various translations. Really the Yijing is a *superlative* whetstone for one's critical skills; the first and best Glass Bead Game.

Intertextual readings elevate that to a whole 'nother level. (Do we reconcile these, chuck one of them, chuck 'em both?) Part of the search for "the answer" is weaning ourselves off the definitive answers that we are handed, and taking responsibility for finding it ourselves.

Taking the role of the prince requires owning the decision, and accepting or rejecting or reinterpreting the judgement; this is not the least of the Yijing's lessons.

One other thought is it is well to be daring in consulting the Y. about cats and cel phones and gadgets. Go for it. But expect to have to be canny rather than uncanny in how you take the judgement. (By which I mean skeptical, critical and a bit legalistic.)

OTOH, in asking about grand themes in your life, it is be a bit more "uncanny" -- naive and accepting: the Y will serve you well if you do, I think.

fondly,
FC

[heylise]

"Taking the role of the prince requires owning the decision, and accepting or rejecting or reinterpreting the judgement; this is not the least of the Yijing's lessons."

love that

LiSe

andnowwherethehellisthatcellphone

[greenowl]

As usual, I have 'devil's advocate' comments...

Seems like we're all doing at least a LITTLE bit of backtracking, trying to justify the reading in hindsight, sincerely trying to improve our interpretation skills in light of perplexing outcomes....various ways of characterizing the discussion here.

Devil's advocate:

1. The I Ching does have a sense of humor. Might this be an especially biting form, considering, as someone mentioned and I agree, the readings don't really matter all that much in these examples? As I said in a previous post: "In my case, the worst that would happen if I took Kitty to the vet for a false alarm is that I'd be out some money (which I'd survive) and he'd be dragged around in the car and poked at with a needle (but he's a remarkably easygoing cat, so he'd survive.)"

2. (Please bear with me and don't take this the wrong way IMMEDIATELY...):

We have reponsibilities as I Ching users and just as sensible human beings, which several of you have mentioned and I won't recap.

But does Yi have NO reponsibility to US? To play fair? (Or however we each might wordsmith that general concept.)

Yi uses MANY techniques to communicate with us. On lost objects *g*, I remember Hilary recounting a reading where Yi gave her a hexagram that was actually a graphical representation of her desk, that indicating somehow the particular place in/on the desk where the object was.

As I recall, Hilary didn't understand the reading until after she'd found the object. Then the light dawned.

To me, that's still an example of 'fair play.' <font size="-2">[Edited to add: Not only fair, but delightfully clever!]</font> I can understand communication difficulties. I have an issue with (devil's advocate) communication obfuscation. There's a difference.

Devil hands off to angels, so she can go peruse mobile phone...*g*

[greenowl]

Hilary, any special place you want us to post our guesses? (BTW, this is fun; don't even care about being wildly wrong!)

Edit, 10:30pm - Well, didn't actually expect to have a guess, but I do. Am going to post it in Open Space (where miscellany and/or 'babble' belongs, as I think I understand it, and to keep spoilers (even wrong ones) out of sight...can be moved if Hilary wants; hope that's okay.)

[martin]

Obfuscation - I had to look up that word! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/howmuch.gif
I would say, confusion, yes, a lot, obviously, but no obfuscation, not confusing on purpose. The intelligence that speaks through the Yi seems to be eager to communicate. As if it tries to reach us and get the message across by all means.
Fair play? Yes, like a very English gentleman or gentlewoman. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

That cell phone .. near a plant in a pot, near or in a box with a wooden object? (47 tree within an enclosure)?
I would also check the laundry (pockets of trousers, for instance) and the garbage. (first line of 47, water trigam: deep, underneath, possibly dark and messy or moist, etcetera)
And there are a few thousand other possibilities .. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce]

LiSe, probablywhereyouleftitlast? I like your interpretation a lot.

While some don't agree, I'm still of the persuasion that interpreting many readings are hazy because Yi speaks to the inside of a person at least as much to the outside. Sometimes, both. Those are my personal favorites! And I think this stove reading is an example.

Who were the comrades? In the stove, they were the components that were not cooperative - parts at odds with one another (gas is a part). As LiSe pointed out, the stove was the cauldron, not the gas tank, and it apparently works just fine. In Susan, the comrades were also her various components, where there was some disagreement/anxiety going on inside. But in spite of that her cauldron didn?t let her down, and no harm came to her.

[greenowl]

Bruce (and everyone else with similar points), it's not that I don't understand what you're saying or that it doesn't make logical sense - I do, and it does.

And, making like a harpie doesn't leave me feeling real good about myself, especially being a new poster here...http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/paperbag.gif.

But (bludgeoning forth with intended sincerity and honest curiosity): It's a given to me that the I Ching is pretty much infinitely wise, and surely wise enough to know what its audience - average humans - <strike>are</strike> <font size="-2">[ed.: grammar]</font> is going to conclude if they ask a question about a gas stove that's not working, and they get a reading whose words hit the ideas of 'stove' and 'full' dead-on.

People have contributed anecdotal evidence that Yi can tailor readings in very clever ways - hexagrams-as-pictures, using the person's particular/peculiar experience with certain hexagrams or lines, using the hex/line numbers themselves to precisely announce the clock time of a phone call - I've thought at times that it knows which of my two freebie computer programs I'm using and picks its words accordingly...

Also, to address the point (paraphrased) that maybe Yi's 'effort' is directly proportional to our sincerity in asking, or how 'important' Yi judges our question to be, or what impact a reading could really have on the outcome - the anecdotal evidence I just mentioned refutes that as well. (The phone would've rung regardless of the reading, for example.)

All I'm trying to suggest here, re: Susan's reading, is that if Yi wanted to address her anxiety about the stove - and btw I think that's a darn fine thing for Yi to do, since I'm an anxious piece-of-work myself (!) - there are many ways to do that. Anxious-piece-of-work here has received many of them herself - telling me in various ways not to be anxious, or, conversely, not to be complacent.

But a reading using stove symbology to answer a question about a stove is going to focus the querent's attention on the stove, not their own psychology. It just IS.

*helpless shrug*

[heylise]

I guess it depends on your own make-up. As soon as I personally think that Yi might answer something different than I asked, I cannot make heads or tails of the answer. So maybe Yi does, but I don't look at that other one, because I would miss both. Every escape route from an answer makes the mist for me too dense to see through.

So, to me, when I ask about a stove, Yi talks about that stove. Only when the situation is so desperate, that I cannot ask about stoves because the tears make it impossible to read the text, then it might address the reason of the tears first...

Maybe later, when I have gathered so much self-confidence that I can handle one answer with ease, I can start with handling two answers simultaneously.
And maybe by that time Yi will start giving me two.. or I will discover that I missed half of the answers all the time.

LiSe

[lightangel]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Yi speaks to the inside of a person at least as much to the outside<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I agree with that.
Maybe there are factors when the Yi gives a response that affect the format of the response. It's a synergy between the questioner and the 'intelligence'. Sometimes the Yi doesn't 'talk', everyone agrees. Why is that? Sometimes the communication might be iffy. Maybe there has to be more than sincerity in the question or concentration/meditation. Maybe sometimes there is just too much noise.. and yet we get an answer that might make sense if looked at in the "right way"..

[bruce]

Agreed, Angel. And this is where I listen for the call of the crane. Being too dumb or lazy to read much, I do nonetheless learn well from friends and tutors. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

And I think there is often too much noise to hear Yi's answer. Oh yes, that I agree with.

[lightangel]

Oh, somehow you manage, Bruce.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

I am beginning to think that this oracle business is not very .. learnable .. I should be past the Hex 3 stage.. that takes me, let's see.. to Hex 4!! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/howmuch.gif Well, I have fun reading the posts anyway.

[bruce]

Learnable... for me it's like grasping a dragon's tail or woman's breast. Not like ordering a cheeseburger, my way. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bruce]

Sometimes answers seem so neat and ordered. Sometimes they are like dreams. Why and when each appears as they do, I really haven't a clue. Whenever I think I understand it, it hides under a rock. And when I am only a fool, it comes to me on wings. Go figure. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/irked.gif

[val]

Hi Greenowl...

You said...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

they get a reading whose words hit the ideas of 'stove' and 'full' dead-on.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Maybe it would help you understand what went wrong with your interpretation, if you look again at the question Susan actually asked.

Her question wasn't "Is the stove full of fuel?" She actually said, "I asked why was the oven was making a clicking noise?"

My guess is the clicking noise is because the oven was fitted with a flame failure safety cut-out device, and the clicking was a warning that the gas was turned on and the flame didn't ignite... to warn her to turn off the oven. People have died of carbon monoxide poisoning because their stove burners or ovens weren't equipped with such a device. Susan wasn't hurt (where others, such as comrades, might have been) because of the warning she received.

Aside from all that, the Yi didn't say her ding was full of fuel. It said full of FOOD. And that, in MY interpretation, is nothing more than confirmation we're talking STOVE here.

Love,

Val

[jesed]

Hi Greenowl

I want to take one of your questions, because is excelent one: if Yi Jing has many hex and lines with identical (or quite the same) advices and omens, why give as an answer one and not the others? how Yi Jing choose wich hexagram give as an answer?

Beyond the point about how can we understand better Susan's post about the stove or your's about the kitty, the question about the "chosen hexagrams" as an answer is very important.

According with traditional teachings the answer belongs not to the text but to the hexagram (as a graphical scheme). Text is only a later tool to help us understanding the answer. A direct interpretation of the answer depends on: trigrams (lower, upper and nuclears) and its relationships; lines (strong/weak, correct/incorrect, central/not central; position and order) and its relationships (solidarity, correspondence, isolated)

Martin interpretation about Susan's answer is a direct interpretation. A very good one.

Now. When you do a direct interpretation, you can find a TIME FRAME. Each hexagram has its own time frame. That's why, even when they can have similarities in the text, every hexagram is unique and no other hexagram has the same answer.

And that is why, Yi Jing can answer you with this hexagram and no other (even if the text could be the similar): because is giving you the time frame of the situation. In Donjuan's post about a romantic relation, Yi Jing gived him as an answer hexagram 1. Hex 35, or 44, or 8 texts could give him some similar ideas: be active and you will join together. But only Hex 1 can give him as an answer a 405 days cicle (time frame). So, Yi Jing didn't give him 34 neither 44 neither 8, but 1.

Best wishes

[jesed]

Hi LiSe

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

About friends or enemies.

Remainds me that in "mathematical method", one of the 5 aspects of life is "Brothers".

Brothers means brothers, friends OR competitioners. Every time, one have to find out wich one of thes meanings have to take.

But, very often, brothers and friends are our competitioners. Interesting to meditation, don't you think.

Now, "counterparts" is a very good word to represent this, indeed http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Best wishes

[greenowl]

Val,

Hilary wondered also if maybe we should be scrupulously literal.

I don't know how gas stoves work...does the safety cut-out device come into play if there's no gas? (Which turned out to be the problem; she needed a delivery from the gas company.)

Or are the cut-offs 'smart' - if there's no fuel, there's no danger, therefore it doesn't have to click?

Is there anything else that would make a stove click?

Maybe Susan could tell us if she'd already put the food in the oven, or the pot on the burner, before she even tried to light it. That would be a really good thing to know for this reading - I never thought to ask her! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/blush.gif

A factoid that escaped my attention until I just now re-read the original thread - Susan said the gas GAUGE was faulty. So, if I understood her correctly, what would have normally been a very simple matter (seeing a gauge on "Empty") became a brouhaha.

Anyone think that factors into the reading somehow?

[greenowl]

Jesed,

"how Yi Jing choose wich hexagram give as an answer?"
Yes, that's one of my pet questions lately. Many thanks for pulling it out and talking about it.

"According with traditional teachings the answer belongs not to the text but to the hexagram (as a graphical scheme)"

Because.....is this right?...they started out by heating turtle shells 'til they cracked, then noting the crack patterns and correlating them to the real events, and THEN figuring out appropriate text... (I think I read somewhere that the text became urgent when they started running out of shells - I'm sure the turtles were relieved *g*)
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Martin: Hexagram 50: fire comes from wood. The changing second line is in the center of the trigram wood, which indicates that the problem is the wood, i.e. the fuel ...

The second hexagram 56 points in the same direction. From the comment of Wilhelm/Baynes:
"When grass on a mountain takes fire, there is bright light. However, the fire does not linger in one place, but travels on to new fuel."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
That's Martin's interpretation you're talking about, right?

I can see how that would indicate 'fuel's consumed.' Problem is I don't know enough to get that far...and I'm pretty sure if I did, I still would have seen it as conflicting with 50.2 - and then I would have given the changing line more weight.

See, I know a little bit about trigrams, nuclears, opposites, line positions, etc. - but VERY little. Do you have a favorite reference? (Probably Hilary, Bradford, and LiSe have info on their sites - I already have Bradford's downloaded, but there's a LOT to absorb there!)

Now for the time frame concepts...must confess I've never even HEARD of that http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/paperbag.gif. REALLY need reference recommendation for that stuff. Sounds fascinating, both for timing information, AND - to see why Yi picks what it does!

GreenOwl

[jesed]

Hi GreenOwl

About trigrams and lines in "direct" analysis: Ten Wings is a nice reference (Knowing, of course, Ten wings are Confuicionist studies); Bradford website and LiSe website also have references about trigrams. Lise (don't remember if Bradfor) have some references about order of lines.

Some hints about lines: in "direct analysis" you should study the place (ying or yang; 1,3 and 5 are yang; 2, 4 and 6 are ying), the nature of line (strong or weak; strong if continue line, weak if non-continue line); the "correctness" of line (weak line in ying place; strong line in yang place). About solidarity, correspondence and isolated, you can see Ten Wings in Whilelm's complete version.

About time frame in hexagrams, I had never see it in any book, only in oral tradition. I know Master Ricardo Andree (high taoist priest) mention this in his book (spanish lenguage) but I haven't read it.

Best wishes

[greenowl]

Answer to question exists but isn't written down...

*feels deflated*

Thanks,though, Jesed http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[jesed]

"I still would have seen it as conflicting with
50.2 - and then I would have given the changing line more weight. "

Let's see 50.2:

before analize a line, one have to see the entire hexagrams:
a) 50 is fire above wood (as Martin said: fire come from wood). Wood produces fire. Is a productive relationship
b) But, after change, fire above earth. Earth reduces fire.
So, first you have wood producing fire, but something is making the fire get reduced.

So far, nothing Susan doesn't knows. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Now, why fire is getting reduced? (that is really Susan's question):
50.2
a) Place: is in the center of lower trigram (wood) As Martin said: the problem is related to what produces the fire. Even more: because is central (the middle way), there is no actual risk or danger. The problem is easy to be solved
b) Correctness: is a strong line in a yin place. That means an excess of energy. Maybe Susan had use too much of what produces the fire (But there is another explanation, as I will say later)
c)Solidarity: line have a good solidarity realtionship with line 5 (on fire trigram). That means no serious problem. But also have a correspondence with line 1, so the problem is in the basis.
d) Nuclear hex means something no evident, or a hidden posibility of solution. Nuclear hex of 50 is 43 (end of repression, open the leaves)... Line 2 in 50 is line 1 in nuclear hex 43. So the hidden posibility of solution involves metal (Lower trigram is heaven--metal). Line 1 of 43 is not opening the leaves, but repressing the energy(the text advice: repress the vigor in the first steps). Is strong line in yang place: that is correct. So, there will be correct to repress energy.

So... the problem involves an excess of energy that reduces the food of fire and ends reducing the fire. A non-evident solution is repress the energy that produces the fire with metal.

So, we alredy know that the gas was empty. But I wonder if there is a hidden problem of the gas stove: could be a leak of gas on it's basis...

Just wondering...

Best wishes

[jesed]

Dear GreenOwl

Yes... there is so much more information in oral tradition than in books. And so few masters teaching?

Best wishes

[val]

Hi Greenowl...

LOL... a lot of questions!

Regarding the idea of being scrupulously literal... yes the force behind the Yi can be.

Case in point: I had the flu for about 10 days and last Sunday was starting to worry it was something more than the flu because of its staying power, so I consulted the Yi. When I asked if the flu was going away (or should I see my doctor), I got 12.6 to 45. I picked up Freeman Crouch's "I Ching: The Chameleon Book" (which I highly recommend btw... great entertainment and educational value in that he tells the story of the Zhou conquest, and his interpretations are very good).

His translation of 12.6 is:
Momentary eclipse.
First eclipse.
Later joy.

His interpretation of 12.6 is:
The eclipse is being likened to a disease. Joy is usually shorthand for the patient being healed. Finishing the arc of this hexagram, we are given hope that the time of Eclipse will soon be finished.

My flu was finished the next day.

His translation of 50.2 (Susan's line) is My mate has sickness - It cannot reach me. Auspicious.

I can't quote Richard Rutt's translation (which I love) here because I don't have his book with me, but there's a definite feel of protection from a danger that affects others. I suspect Susan's clicking was that protection.

The flame failure safety cut-out device has the ability to detect there is no flame and cut off the gas supply. Some ignitors automatically try a couple more times before they cut out long term, and that may be the clicking Susan heard. I don't know if any can detect an absence of gas.

Love,

Val

[hilary]

That's a very nice example of 12.6, Val - glad the 'flu got the message and went!

Jesed wrote,<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

According with traditional teachings the answer belongs not to the text but to the hexagram (as a graphical scheme). Text is only a later tool to help us understanding the answer. A direct interpretation of the answer depends on: trigrams (lower, upper and nuclears) and its relationships; lines (strong/weak, correct/incorrect, central/not central; position and order) and its relationships (solidarity, correspondence, isolated)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I s'pose someone should say that strictly speaking , the text is historically earlier than all the information about trigrams or line relationships.

But I'm really much more interested to ask more about this analysis of time frames. Would love to pick your brains on this, what you've learned and where you've learned it. What's the connection between Hexagram 1 and a 405-day period, for instance?

[jesed]

Dear Hillary

Your are right and not... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

New historic studies point to the fact that "text is historically earlier than all the information about trigrams or line relationships". (in this, you are right), but even if this is true, hexagram (as a graphic scheme of reality) is earlier that text about hexagrams http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif


"What's the connection between Hexagram 1 and a 405-day period, for instance?"
According with traditional teachings (it means, I'd learned in oral tradition, direct from a personal master), each hexagram is a Time (not only metaphoric, but a time cicle). How long is that time (it means, how long I'm in a Creative situation)? That depends on the hex.

Each trigram is around 45 day cicle ( 45*8= 360 days; quite a year). The time of each hex started in the lower trigram, and rules until upper trigram is reached. So you had to do some mathematical calculations: X trigrams from lower trigram to upper trigran * 45 days= number of days ruled by your hex.

In hex 1: from Heaven (lower trigram) to Heaven (upper trigram) there are 9 trigrams. 9*45=405 days.
Best wishes

[val]

Hi Greenowl...

I've come back to backpedal, but I can't stay long. My life is becoming more and more busy. And I don't know that I'll be able to return to the forum or this thread anytime soon (although I'd love to), so please forgive me if I don't respond in a timely fashion to any follow-up posts you write.

When I posted Freeman's translation of 50.2, I left off the beginning "Ding is full" because at that point I was perceiving it as a given. I've come back to put it back in because it really is paramount to understanding the meaning of 50.2

Okay... I'm through backpedaling and moving forward now. As a disclaimer, the following history is highly speculative since we have no way of knowing for sure... since we weren't there... and the conclusions I've drawn are the result of my recent studies of ancient Chinese religious beliefs, practices, etc. which is all, of course, very speculative. I just find it ponderous to continually say "It seems," "It appears," etc etc). Just know that it's understood while you are reading the following.

During the Neolithic age and at least the early Shang dynasty, dings (which were first clay vessels and then bronze) were indeed used for cooking. However, at the point in time when the Zhouyi was written (or more likely compiled or culled from a long record of Shang oracle bone inscriptions and notes about observing omens in nature), the ding was no longer used for cooking and was strictly used to hold offerings to the ancestors. (There's an interesting discussion around here someplace about dings... I believe the thread is called 50 - Cauldron.)

Food offerings (as opposed to animal or human sacrifice) were made to the more recent ancestors on matters of a more local rather than universal nature. It was believed that illness was caused by recently deceased ancestors, and food offerings were commonly used in the case of illness by priests and shamans who were trying to determine which ancestor was angry and causing the illness and to appease and receive blessings from said ancestor.

The priests and shamans in 57.2 (57 is about healing) are trying to discern who the angry ancestor is... the mother, the father, and 18 is about making that determination and the food offering to appease him/her. Notice how nicely the authors of the Yi made that segue? 57.2 to 18. Gotta love it.

50.2 is also about that food offering and illness. Richard Rutt (who allowed himself a little poetic license in his translation... *grin*) says of 50.2:

Tripod-bowl full to the top.
Illness makes my comrades drop;
before it hits me, it will stop.

AUSPICIOUS

What I believe this line is saying is that the food offering is full and the ancestor to which it is offered is appeased and will protect the family offering it from the plague that is taking out all their friends and neighbors. The augury is auspicious.

The interesting thing is there are a number of other lines the Yi could have used to indicate to Susan that the clicking sound was to protect her. I suspect the Yi used 50.2 to deliver a "two edged" message... a double whammy if you will. The ding, although it was no longer used for cooking when those words were laid down for us, still had the "cooking" connection... and the food connection. And the 'spiritual message' in the line is about protection from illness (or carbon monoxide poisoniong).

So I asked if the Yi last night if that was the case... if they were indeed delivering a 'double' message, and they gave me the most delightful answer...

54.3 A cousin given in marriage with her elder siser. Yet she marries with companion-brides.

I'll take that as a resounding and rather charming Yes.

Love,

Val

[greenowl]

My goodness! What a delight, after being away all day, to find all this beautiful information you've all planted. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Have just barely skimmed it though. Will read better in the morning when more awake. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zzz.gif

Val: About your very literal 12.6, yes - couldn't you almost swear Yi knew exactly which commentary you were going to pick up?? Just glancing through the 12.6 page in my (shoddily constructed) Access database - the words 'disease' or 'healed' appear in no translation/commentary that's in there. (Not that the idea of 'obstruction ending' doesn't do a perfectly good job, but how nice to have a grin with your answer.)

(Hope whatever's keeping you busy will be successful. Hurry back! There'll be more questions!! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif)

Also hoping Susan (*calls out*) might check in for this discussion of 50.2 and sickness - Jesed (and other people?) wondered 'if there is a hidden problem of the gas stove' beyond just the empty gas tank. 'Empty' isn't really the same as 'sick'...and I'm not sure we had an update on the stove itself past the point of the gas delivery.

(Not, of course, that we want Susan's stove to be sick. Susan has enough trouble!)

[greenowl]

Jesed,

Thank you for stepping through the analysis of Susan's reading (line 50.2) from a trigram perspective http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif. I can see it's helpful, but of course I'll have to work on applying it to my readings, and of course learn more about the concepts.

The 'time frame' analysis is intriguing, but confusing. As I think I understand it, it's (1) Yi's way of giving us the time frame for the reading, and (2) the reason why, as you said, 'Yi Jing can answer you with this hexagram and no other (even if the text could be the similar.'

If you have time, would you mind working through Susan's stove reading (50.2 - 56) with this method, so we could see how it's calculated and applied to a reading that we're all familiar with?

(Any chance you could get these masters you've learned from on the internet? *joking* )

(Mostly joking...! )

[val]

Welcome back Greenowl...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Val: About your very literal 12.6, yes - couldn't you almost swear Yi knew exactly which commentary you were going to pick up??<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Oh I count on it any more. I noticed it when I was still using the W/B and Sam Reifler's and some other versions. The answer would often be perfect in the version I chose and irrelevant in the others. I tend to find myself reaching for Freeman's book more these days because so often I come away laughing at how perfect the answer is.

Love,

Val