Youth vs Innocence?

[bruce]

I?d like to hear how you view the differences between 4.5 and 25.6.

[auriel]

4.5 has the youth mastering his curriculuum, and sowing his wild oats, accepting his own immaturity maybe, with its native rights, and taking advantage of them. i think he may be a good student, willing to fight for his master's beliefs whether or no he deeply understands them.

25.6 has a congenital innocent buying any old huckster's bag of goods.

in 4.5 at least the seed of wisdom has been sown; 25.6 has the seed of ignorance being harvested.

[sparhawk]

"oh, it's you, Neumann..." Sorry, I had a Seinfeld flashback... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

I only saw the title of this brand-spanking new thread and jumped at it thinking it was a rethorical question. Alas, it was serious and tied to Yi lines.

In any case, I will not get on the meaning of the lines as they can be anything to anybody. Really. I'll opinion though on the comparison of the two nouns of the title. If we define "sin" as the lack of "innocence", then Christian faith would have us believe that there is no such thing as "innocence" as everybody is born a sinner. Ridiculous, but, I'm a rebellious Catholic....

From a practical point of view, "youth", by itself, does not guarantee "innocence" as such is thrown out the window with every "bad act" the youth carries out with the knowledge that said act is bad as part of a deviation of the rules set forth in the culture and environment where he/she is growing up. "Intention" in the deviation from those rules is the key.

As for "innocence", it can be seen as part of the above explanation as it pertains to a lack of knowledge of said rules and a transgression occurs. The English dictionary defines the word as: freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil Key word on "unacquainted". Lack of acquantance with what is wrong can make a person innocent. "Innocence" as a noun and as I understand it is not only geographical but cultural.

Of course, this argument will never keep you out of jail...http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

Back to my cave now...

Luis

[val]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"youth", by itself, does not guarantee "innocence" as such is thrown out the window with every "bad act" the youth carries out<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Every bad act carried out against the youth is a destroyer of innocence as well.

Love,

Val

[sparhawk]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Every bad act carried out against the youth is a destroyer of innocence as well.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

No argument there, indeed.

L

[bradford_h]

Luis-
RE: "In any case, I will not get on the meaning of the lines as they can be anything to anybody".
This is certainly truest where people rely on collected interpretations of collected commentaries on collected translations of an already multi-layered original. Three or four branches out from an already mysterious source text it's no wonder there's such perplexity - people might as well be reading chicken entrails.
But the fact is, these lines do have core meanings to someone who examines the original text.
04.5 is simply that the greatest wisdom lies in the question, not in the answer, and that embracing our lack of knowledge is a very wise place for us fools to begin. Stay hungry.
25.6 is almost perfectly captured by Zhuangzi's statement: "Perfect sincerity offers no guarantee." The promise of our innate intelligence is not THAT kind of promise.

[bruce]

Thanks for your input.

"Every bad act carried out against the youth is a destroyer of innocence as well" could be part of 4.6, for sure.

But why does movement without pretense lead to affliction (25.6) while youthful or inexperienced action (4.5) leads to success?

[bruce]

Brad, crossed posts. That makes sense. Thanks.

[bruce]

But it doesn't make it yet perfectly clear to me. Both 25.6 and 4.5 seem to express naivet?. Is it only that 4 questions, while 25 acts out from innocence? Both are outward actions, not only receiving inwardly. It's the action which brings different results that interests me most about this puzzle.

[sparhawk]

Brad,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

people might as well be reading chicken entrails.
But the fact is, these lines do have core meanings to someone who examines the original text. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Mind you, I agree with your assessment of the original text as it reaches us, but, I can't help it, it has to come out as a pun: whoever put text to the lines to the Yi, WAS reading chicken entrails... LOL!!

Not that there's anything wrong with it... (sorry, another flashback...) http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

Luis

[val]

Bruce...

First to you... thanks for posing this question. I was intrigued when I first saw it and was very eager to see what the 'big boys' say.

Second to everyone else who's curious (the use of 'curious' is intentional btw).

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

04.5 is simply that the greatest wisdom lies in the question, not in the answer, and that embracing our lack of knowledge is a very wise place for us fools to begin. Stay hungry.

25.6...Perfect sincerity offers no guarantee."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Love this. Now a word from the bleachers (that would be me... *grin*).

4.5 can be about one who recognizes and accepts one's ignorance... always the student.

25.6 (to me) is saying (among other things) that spontaneous, heartfelt action is a really good thing, but there are times when being spontaneous and not planning ahead can be dangerous.

Love,

Val

[bruce]

Val, I like that. That's about as close as I've come, too. Curious is a great word. Maybe Curious Action verses Impetuous Action?

[lightangel]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

But it doesn't make it yet perfectly clear to me. Both 25.6 and 4.5 seem to express naivet?. Is it only that 4 questions, while 25 acts out from innocence? Both are outward actions, not only receiving inwardly. It's the action which brings different results that interests me most about this puzzle.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Right on this thread I find all these meanings for 'innocent':

naive
blameless
sincere

Innocent in 4.5 might be mean naive. Innocent in 25.6 might mean sincere. That's how I see Brad's explanation anyway. So, maybe it's not different actions that produce different results, it's different circumstances altogether.

Brad, going back, what does this mean:
"The promise of our innate intelligence is not THAT kind of promise." ????

[bradford_h]

Hi Lightangel-
We are not "promised" success just for being pure or true. We simply have a lot of promise if we develop ourselves in good faith. Val nailed this one.
I would only add one of my favorite quotes: "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel first". We can't count on our innocence to achieve things for us. That's not innocence but presumption.

[lightangel]

Right.. But it sounds to me like, even if after some deliberate thinking you do decide to sincerely tie your camel, you might still lose it.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bruce]

Are you sure your name isn't Lil Lightdevil? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/mischief.gif

This is clearer to me now. Thanks all who contributed. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zen2.gif

[lightangel]

Hey, that's a cute name, I'll keep it in mind.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/5280.gif

[bruce]

4.5 or 25.6?

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/5282.jpg

[val]

25.6 - I see guile in those eyes.

[micheline]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/5284.jpg

[jte]

More thoughts on the main question - one aspect can be that circumstances differ:

In 4.5 one is willing to give up one's pride and learn. Hence the teacher (circumstances? perhaps, sometimes) does not smite as he/she/it does in 4.6.

In 25.6, even though one is innocent and therefore presumably intends to "do the right thing" external circumstances are adverse and doing so would have negative consequences. To take an extreme example, though innocent, the child will still almost certainly get shot if it accidently stumbles into the midst of a gang war.

My 2 cents,

- Jeff

[void]

Okay re Michelines picture.. Is it a 4,5 moment or a 25,6 moment..either for the baby or for the cat ??? To me it seems pretty much a 25,6 moment for both of them. They are both acting in all innocence according to their natures but looks like both will suffer, well looks like cat already is. Amazingly apt picture for this thread
I think. Cat appears its about to rip baby to shreds !!

[auriel]

when one starts to get wise to the fact that one is a fool (5th line old yin in 4)it dissolves/disperses a lot of preconceptions/prejudices (59)

re: the emperor's new clothes

when the conditions that were favorable for one to maintain innocence pass (6th line old yang in 25)one is left vulnerable- best a follower (17- "shelter yourself from the reach of dark powers")

re: "they made straw dogs and burned them"

or am i being naiive

[bruce]

Auriel, I think you bring up a notable point in that line 6 of 25 is about to depart the realm of innocence ...and so finds his/her teacher in 17.

Thanks

[micheline]

I always thought of line 4.5 as the "beginner's luck" line...got that from the sorrells I Ching, I suppose...4.5 is a fortunate young sprout.

and 25.6 "you can't get away with naivete anymore"

Yeah, Void, the picture is definitely a 25.6 moment for both the young sprouts!! One is getting bitten and the other one is about to.....

but it could also be a 4.5 because the baby has no real "teeth" and maybe the cat will simply snarl and scoot off!

[void]

In which case I guess the baby learns about the perils of cat and cat learns of perils of babies.
A dog on the other hand would know it was a baby, they most often do, and make allowances for foolish behaviour.

[auriel]

it is a dog eat dog world. i reccomend you drink some teriaki sauce before going out in public.

that is what my teacher says. but i am weak.

what about 53.1 in these contexts? anyone?

[heylise]

In 4.5 the relating hex 59 says what this is about, or what is the solution: to dissolve, not to oppose, not to stand on one's right, and such.

In 25.6 hex 17 says, you have to follow the rules of the moment/of universe/of your common sense, whatever, or else behaving innocently can really turn out disastrously.

In 53.1 the relating hex is 37, the family. The young boy might very well be the young of the geese. When they get close to the banks of the river, it is dangerous for the little ones, so they make a lot of noise at the slightest disturbance. They behave as one group, a family, and thus they protect the young ones.

LiSe

[heylise]

In the human world 37.1 and 53.1 are about the beginning of a family. Literally or symbolically. Wilhelm says: "The development of events that leads to a girl's following a man to his home proceeds slowly. The various formalities must be disposed of before the marriage takes place." But the reality of daily life is usually simpler: they make a little one.. and at the same time it is the start of the family.

For that baby there is danger. No safe family yet, he is himself the beginning of a family ? hopefully. Lots of talk too.. Things have to become solid, like 37.1 says.

The question of what came first, the chicken or the egg. The family or the child.

LiSe

[val]

25.6 meets 4.5

<blockquote>"O! Hwai Dungsyi" -- You bad little thing -- said the woman, teasing her baby granddaughter. "Is Buddha teaching you to laugh for no reason?" As the baby continued to gurgle, the woman felt a deep wish stirring in her heart.

"Even if I could live forever," she said to the baby, "I still don't know which way I would teach you. I was once so free and innocent. I too laughed for no reason.

"But later I threw away my foolish innocence to protect myself. And then I taught my daughter, your mother, to shed her innocence so she would not be hurt as well.

"Hwai Dungsyi, was this kind of thinking wrong? If I now recognize evil in other people, is it not because I have become evil too? If I see someone has a suspicious nose, have I not smelled the same bad things?

The baby laughed, listening to her grandmother's laments.

"O! O! You say you are laughing because you have already lived forever, over and over again? You say you are Syi Wong Mu, Queen Mother of the Western Skies, now come back to give me the answer! Good, good, I'm listening....

"Thank you, little Queen. Then you must teach my daughter this same lesson. How to lose your innocence but not your hope. How to laugh forever."

"The Joy Luck Club" ~ Amy Tan</blockquote>

[val]

Auriel...

I forgot to mention. I ordered "The Portable Dragon" as soon as you mentioned it. It arrived last Wednesday or Thursday, but I didn't really get a chance to get into it much until last night, and I'm really enjoying it. Whether the passages quoted are a good match for the lines or not (and what I've read so far seems to be) is immaterial at this point. I'm having too much fun reading the diverse points of view and styles of writing.

Thanks for mentioning it!

Love,

Val

[freemanc]

Isn't the Portable Dragon an august thing!

Since Val is reading it, I may be motivated to pick it up again and read it *well*.

I have to confess aching with envy of the author for getting picked up by MIT press. (But 1971 was a strange planet, and I guess he was "family" there at MIT.)

I think it has the grandeur and swashbuckling style that (I guess) you must learn at MIT, and by turns, I love it and am exasperated by its businessy hauteur.

What do you think of it so far?

[val]

A prowling wolf, whose shaggy skin
(So strict the watch of dogs had been)
Hid little but his bones,
Once met a mastiff dog astray.
A prouder, fatter, sleeker Tray
No human mortal owns.
Sir Wolf, in famished plight,
Would fain have made a ration
Upon his fat relation:
But then he first must fight;
And well the dog seemed able
To save from wolfish table
His carcass snug and tight.
So, then in civil conversation,
The wolf expressed his admiration
Of Tray's fine case. Said Tray, politely,
"Yourself, good Sir, may be as sightly:
Quit but the woods, advised by me;
For all your fellows here, I see,
Are shabby wretches, lean and gaunt,
Belike to die of haggard want.
With such a pack, of course, it follows,
One fights for every bit he swallows.
Come, then with me and share
On equal terms our princely fare."
"But what with you
Has one to do?"
Inquires the wolf. "Light work indeed,"
Replies the dog; "you only need
To bark a little now and then,
To chase off duns and beggar-men, --
To fawn on friends that come or go forth,
Your master please, and so forth;
For which you have to eat
All sorts of well-cooked meat --
Cold pullets, pigeons, savory messes --
Besides unnumbered fond caresses."
The wolf, by force of appetite,
Accepts the terms outright,
Tears glistening in his eyes;
But faring on, he spies
A galled spot on the mastiff's neck.
"What's that?" he cries. "Oh, nothing but a speck."
"A speck?" -- "Ay, ay, 'tis not enought to pain me.
Perhaps the collar's mark by which they chain me."
"Chain! chain you! What! run you not, then,
Just where you please and when?"
"Not always, Sir; but what of that?"
"Enough for me, to spoil your fat!
It ought to be a precious price
Which could do servile chains entice;
For me, I'll shun them while I've wit."
So ran Sir Wolf, and runneth yet.

<font size="-1">FELIX MARIA DE SAMANIEGO, SPANISH (1745-1801)</font>

41.2

The man renders faithful service without sacrificing himself.
Forfeiting one's dignity and personality to do the bidding
of a person of high rank is shameful.


So far I love it... *grin*

Love,

Val

[auriel]

val-
"Egads, I've created a monster!"-Mary Shelly
44.1 ". . .he should be tied firmly down." http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[val]

Auriel...
lol

Ya think?

Love,

Val

[auriel]

keep those stories coming!