Question about crossline omens

[clarissa]

I recently asked "what about x happening?" and I received....

42.2.3 -> 9

...which sounds incredibly positive. According to what I read here from Stephen Karcher...the crossline omens for this reading would be

41.5
41.4

Interestingly enough, I received 41.4 a few weeks ago when I asked about this issue using a slightly different phrasing. However, I'm trying to understand exactly what the crossline omens mean. How are we to understand them? Mr. Karcher was speaking about 41 representing the inspiring phases and 42 representin the manifestation phase.

[yly2pg1]

If you can phrase the question, say the "crossline omen" btw 41 and 42?

Could there be a trend or pattern between the pairs below?

41.1 <-> 42.6
41.2 <-> 42.5 (crossline?)
41.3 <-> 42.4 (crossline?)
41.4 <-> 42.3
41.5 <-> 42.2
41.6 <-> 42.1

[yly2pg1]

Also:

Earth 41.2<->42.5 Heaven
Man 41.3<->42.4 Man

You have the processes from Earth <-> Man <-> Heaven.

Earth 42.2<->41.5 Heaven
Man 42.3<->41.4 Man

You have the processes from Heaven <-> Man <-> Earth

[yly2pg1]

Back to the question:
What is x-happening?

If you are able to look at both side of the stories of x-happening, probably:

One side of the scenario is:
42.2.3 -> 9
(Earth <-> Man)

The other side of the scenario may be:
41.4.5 ->10
(Man <-> Heaven)

[yly2pg1]

BTW, this is the crosslines you refer to, not the ones mentioned above:

41.4 <-> 42.3
41.5 <-> 42.2

[clarissa]

Yl,

Thank you for your input. My question, "What about x happening?" was basically a yes/no question. I don't know if this is a proper way to question the Yi. The answer does seem very positive though.

When you say "both sides of the story"...you mean...how event X is perceived from two different points of view? Given the event I had in mind...that does seem to make sense.

[kevin]

Hi Clarissa

Crossline Omen is a phrase coined by Stephen Karcher.

They are different from the Fanyao of LiSe / Bradford fame.

Yli2pg1 describes the Fanyao in her last post above. I am not sure of either Brad?s or LiSe?s current thinking on them. For me they are an important energy loop and there are many in the Yijing. I do not use them in divination but look at them as a way of shedding light on the two hexagrams and four lines involved. The flip flop of the energy here is, for me from the inspiring hexagram of the pair (the odd numbered one) to the manifesting hexagram of the pair (the even numbered one) and from the inner world of the lower trigram to the outer world of the upper trigram.

Letting ones mind run around the loop in meditation has the wonderful double flip and gives me the same feeling of trying to run my mind around an imagined mobius strip. However it is far more interesting http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Back to Crossline Omens? I use these a lot and find them to be very powerful in divination.

I understand that Stephen?s current thinking is that one takes each changing line in turn.

Look up the hexagram it leads to find the relating line in that new pair then the line in that new hexagrams pair which will take you back to the pair of the primary hexagram. There are inconsistencies in some hexagrams so you may want to use the Maps Hilary has available on this site.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/practical_I_Ching/advanced.html

Look fo the two 'map' links on this page - they are free to download)

When you have the four Hexagram lines written out you start at the lowest of the primary or relating hexagram and work to the highest. This is the path of change as represented in your reading.

(Sorry it is so hard to explain this if you are interested I will clarify any point.)

I know what I am saying here is different from the Total I Ching? He has done a lot work on this idea and his thinking has developed.

I will lay this out for your question in another post in a few minutes

--Kevin

[kevin]

Clarisa these are your Crossline omens? as per SK.

42.2.3 > 9

41.5 [61.5 : 61.2] 42.2

41.4 [38.4 : 37.3] 42.3

They are always written and followed from the lower hexagram number to the greater hexagram number. The logic for this is that the general flow through the King Wen sequence is in that direction. (This is SK?s view).

He refers to these as ?secret pathways?. I was sceptical about them at first, however I used them for a while and found them very good indeed.

The way to work with them is to read each of the four lines in the order given as if it were a route that is open for you to travel.

The question for you is whether these two paths are one after another as in Steps of Change or Time Sequence or represent different movements.

Anyway I hope this helps.

--Kevin

[kevin]

Oops

No the Fanyao would be:

42.2 - 42.5 - 41.5 - 41.2

and

42.3 - 42.4 - 41.4 - 41.3

Sorry I was not paying proper attention!

I think there is something on LiSe's site about it... or do a search here - she wrote quite a bit about it as did Brad.

I have not found a divinatory use for it but as I said above it is very interesting and helpful when looking at the relationships of the lines and hexagrams.

--Kevin

[clarissa]

Kevin..

So, for example with...

42.2 - 42.5 - 41.5 - 41.2

...read 41.2 first..then 41.5...then 42.5 etc?

[bradford_h]

Hi-
Just for clarification -
The fan yao are for examining the meanings of the lines and their texts, not for divination. I think there are indications that the Yi authors used this dimension when writing the texts. The term is my coinage and means "the line coming back". The pairs often share terminology, moods, etc, and can often help to explain each other. Crossline Omens are Stephen's invention.

[kevin]

Hi Clarissa

No - That is the Fanyao - See my comments above. Fanyao is not a divinatory tool but contemplating them can shed light on the dynamics taking place at that position in a pair.

Brad sees it a little more cautiously - perhaps? - See his post above.

The Crossline Omen as per SK is a divinatory tool and one which I find very effective.

Here it is:

41.5 [61.5 : 61.2] 42.2

41.4 [38.4 : 37.3] 42.3

41.5 leads to 61.5 then the diagonal crossover to 61.2 which leads to 42.2.

The easy way of working these out Is to yake the hexagram where the original moving line takes you? in this case 61. The exact line is the line which would return you to the original hexagram? in this case 61.5.

Now start at the other end and find the line in the pair of the original hexagram (42) which takes you to the pair of the first transitional hexagram ? 61.

It all seems a little difficult at first but remember you are generating two pairs one across the outside and a pair in the middle.

Then you read the lines left to right.

Try it on a couple of old readings where you know the outcome? see if it works for you.

Those maps I gave you a link to make the process a lot easier.

Any good?

--Kevin

[hilary]

You say 'invention', I say 'discovery'... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

There are enough places where the crosslines are very obviously related to make me think that connections may be intended even where they're not so obvious.

At all events, I find it helps to walk round the 'pathway' and contemplate what this might be pushing towards/fuelling (going from 41.2 to 42.5, for instance), or looking back towards what might be its genesis, or maybe a prerequisite (looking from 42.5 to 41.2).

I think the fan yao lead further into something more subjective/emotional: what the experience feels like or how you might see it.

The number of 'might's and 'maybe's in this post probably proves something.

[clarissa]

Thanks Kevin...

I went through the lines. Well, all I can say is...this is one nice answer. Of course, I don't know the outcome but I'll report back. What's interesting is that it's about people meeting each other...which is what the question was about.

Obviously this doesn't work with only one line moving http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif I tried it on an old reading in which I knew the answer. Unfortunately, there is no line in 45 that leads to 11 http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif The reading was 45.6 -> 12

[kevin]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

I look forward to the outcome and wish you the best with it.

11 is not everything... lol... How boring life would be!

But it is there:

(45.6 [12.6 : 11.1] 46.1)

Try this for an interpretation:
Things seem blocked now, but you will soon have cause to rejoice. The obstruction you feel is toppling. Go back and accept the challenge, for it is time to get this great endeavor off the ground. Find people of worth you really belong with. Put things in order. Proceed step by step.

All the best

--Kevin

[clarissa]

Kevin,

I must have been really tired last night. <grin> I followed the line through and yes, it does seem to make sense. However, in this one I used the fan yao to help me predict the outcome:

The reading...45.6 -> 12...was regarding a problem with my financial aid. It was being held up and when I asked about it the woman there told me that I was being selected for "verification". I didn't like the sound of that. I had to fill out some additional paperwork etc. I asked, "What's happening with my financial aid?" and received this answer....

Well, 45.6 DOES speak of "lamenting and sighing"...and that was exactly what I was doing. I was running around shouting, "What if I don't get it???!!!!" etc. It lead to 12 which I felt was my current situation...standstill. However, the fan yao was the standstill ending...and 45.6 seemed to show that. So, I predicted that everything would be OK...and it was. The standstill ended.

My question about 45.6 is this:

Wilhelm's commentary speaks about someone who has been misunderstood...and that this is the reason for the lamenting. Is that your experience with the line. It does seem to make sense in this case.

[kevin]

Hi Clarissa

Yes we all get tired and miss things http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/sad.gif

I have thought long and hard about your question.

Are you having having difficulty seeing the difference between Fanyao and Crossline Omens?

I have said quite a lot in the posts above.

When the above settles with you? that is you might go with the Crossline Omens or against? it does not matter? then I would be happy to say more about methods of looking at particular line texts.

Respectfully I would suggest that studying the Yi is not a gallop through process? it takes some concentration and a lot of reflection.

There are methods of looking at text very different from ones opinions about the possible textual meaning that the limited English translations are able to offer.

I would be happy to discuss these with you when you have worked through (accepted or rejected) the ideas I have already suggested.

Why not try the Crossline omen method on the line in question?

Don't hang on to the text words but feel the immages emerge the weeping and wailing.... the gatherring of great things idea and the idea that it is not a mistake... place these ideas in the images the flow of the Crossline Omen generates.

Tell me what you see.

--Kevin

[clarissa]

"I would be happy to discuss these with you when you have worked through (accepted or rejected) the ideas I have already suggested."

Kevin, I'm not looking for an I Ching guru. I don't believe in "Masters", "Spiritual teachers" or going to some dirty third-world country to "find myself" on top of a mountain. I want to know if the Yi works as a predictive tool. If it doesn't, I don't have any use for it and all of this is just a lot of mental masturbation. What you have that I don't regarding the Yi is experience using it...and that's what I'm trying to tap...nothing else.

[jesed]

Dear Clarissa

Yi Jing does works as a predictive tool (example. In www.e-ching.com (http://www.e-ching.com), I publically predicted the year and month of death of Catholic Pope)

But, as traditional teachings says (the Ta Chuan): You can study the text, but if you are not the right person...

Best wishes

[clarissa]

"But, as traditional teachings says (the Ta Chuan): You can study the text, but if you are not the right person..."

So far it has worked for me as a predictive tool...so I must be the "right" person. However, one can't make predictions without understanding the text.

[jesed]

by the way... right now the actual Catholic Pope (Ratzinger) is in a strong tendence to die next summer (months snake or horse of 2006) despite a surgery at the end of 2005.

But, of course: Acoording with traditional teachings, there is NO written future, just a tendece.

[jesed]

Hi Clarissa

Actually, you CAN make predictions (even better ones) without studying the texts... whit the Xiang Shu Yi Xue method...

[clarissa]

What's the Xiang Shu Yi Xue method?

[hilary]

Going back a few posts, Clarissa - one thing I can guarantee is that Kevin isn't offering to be anybody's guru, I Ching or otherwise. His 'experience using it' suggests (as mine does) that taking the imagery on board and waiting to see what emerges works well.

Would you be interested in Yi as anything more than a predictive tool?

[jesed]

Hi Clarissa

Check this link from Raymond Lo: http://www.raymond-lo.com/ver2/aboutmasterlo/articles.asp?id=7

Another one, from Joseph Yu: http://www.astro-fengshui.com/courses/yijing.html

Maybe this method is better for your intentions (is only about prediction, not etics or spiritual teachings or wisdom.. as Master Raymond Lo said in this article.. "is basically a tool for asking questions and getting answers"

Best wishes

[jesed]

ps

Better this one as a first aproach: http://www.astro-fengshui.com/iching/sample_lesson.html

[jesed]

Last one, a detailed example:
http://www.geocities.com/yijing_yu/saddam.htm

[clarissa]

"Would you be interested in Yi as anything more than a predictive tool?"

You mean as some kind of spiritual guide? No...because I don't think that's what the Yi is. I'm interested in seeing if it's useful in a very pragmatic way.

[clarissa]

That Saddam example was interesting. I wonder why this particular technique hasn't caught on in the West?

See...I think the future is already set. Our lives are all about kismet and free will is an illusion. The question is...can we somehow tap into it and get a glimpse of what will be?

[jesed]

Even in this method.. the future is NOT already set. But I undertand is more closed to your point of view (wich I respect)

Hope you can get the book of Raymond Lo; is quite simple for a first step

[jesed]

"I wonder why this particular technique hasn't caught on in the West?"

Yi Jing has several levels: this technique is related only to one of them (and the "lower" one in traditonal teachings). That's why many traditional masters doesn't like it.

If you read closely Whilelm's translation, you'll find one or two words about this method. He called it "astrological speculation". Of course, Whilelm learned Yi Jing from traditional masters; so he learned not-to-like this method http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[hilary]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I think the future is already set. Our lives are all about kismet and free will is an illusion. The question is...can we somehow tap into it and get a glimpse of what will be?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Why would you want to bother?

[hilary]

Sorry, just spotted your response up there.

'More than a predictive tool' does not necessarily mean 'spiritual guide' - though I imagine we might have different interpretations for 'spiritual guide'.

Let's ban the 's' word for the moment, for the sake of simplicity. I was thinking more of questions like, 'How best to approach this job interview?' or 'What do I need to say in this sales letter?' or 'Why do X and I always end up arguing?'

What's more pragmatic and useful: an oracle that can give you advice to enable to improve your life, or a predictive tool that can show you glimpses of a future you're helpless to change?

[hilary]

I think (not 100% sure) that the system Jesed is describing is also the subject of the books Harmen Mesker reviews here (http://www.biroco.com/yijing/najia.htm).

[heylise]

I did not want to clutter this thread with a lot of theory, so I started another thread about crosslines, squares and fan yao

"Crosslines squares and fanyao" (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/5063.html?1124980863)

LiSe

[clarissa]

"Why would you want to bother?"

Curiousity. Sometimes I don't want to know...but other times I do.

From the reviews:

"now, after more than twenty years, we have three more books about the subject. Which probably shows what a delicate subject it is."

That's how I see it. Few want to delve into this because of the stigma attached to fortune telling. However, I've seen enough weird things in my life to make me think it just may be possible.

"'The most powerful language of God' is the subtitle of this big book, written by one of the weirdest guys on the internet."

This Chiu guy sounds like a real character http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif Was he the person coming here and calling himself "Horse"? <grin>

[kevin]

Hi Clarissa

That?s good as I am not a Guru!

I have to be somewhere else tonight? will post properly tomorrow.

I think what I was trying to say was how to use the crosslines? and that it was not about text analysis,

The Dachuan also says the text was written for those who could not use the Yi without it ;)

I like both?

What I was trying to open up was the art of divination which is very different from text analysis.

Try the technique I suggested? You might find it opens up a new approach for you.

Sorry if I sounded guru like or patronizing ? it was no meant.

But

Did I really sound Guru like? Perhaps my response was because you did not seem to do any work around what I had already said and then you asked another question on another subject?

Back tomorrow

--Kevin

[hilary]

If I couldn't do anything about it, I definitely wouldn't want to know. Anyway - another reason why it likely hasn't caught on over here is that it's monstrously complicated. We don't tend to be fond of weighty, complicated systems that take years to learn. How many Westerners have learned traditional Chinese feng shui? The lack of translations from the Chinese may be a factor, or it may just be a side-effect of lack of demand.

Alex Chiu is indeed a character. I don't think he's ever visited us here, though a fan of his once dropped by. Joseph Yu, who sells a correspondence course on the same subject that Alex expounds for free on his site, says that Alex's work has mistakes. I don't know anything about any of it.

BTW and OT, you should read Steve Marshall's links page, too. It's hysterical.

[bruce]

Ah, the Chiu guy who promises immortality? I read in News Week that he?s merging with Rev. Sun Myung Moon for sanctified wedding franchises, and fortune cookie distribution through Girl Scouts of America.

[jesed]

Hi

Just in case the commentary can be usefull

Experiment whith reality (and not preconcibed concepts) is the best teacher... I had asked several "predictive" questions; and interpreted acoording both with Chiu's web and Lo's book. Every time, Lo's book give better interpretations.

Studying why, you can find some errors in Chiu's web (like convert your local time to Beijin time, this is an error (altough some western's studies insist that is correct; not always impact on your readings, but som times it does)

About Herman's review of Raymond Lo: mmm, he did some injust critics.

Just one example: he said about the Benett's case "Excuse me? It was reported in the media that the girl was found beaten, strangled to death, with duct tape on her mouth. 'Is this resistance successful?'"

But Raymond Lo NEVER said kid's resistance was successful; even more, Lo textually said it was UNSUCCESSFUL (because the month supported the killer and not the child)

Raymond Lo's book is not the deeper book in this method; but a good first step to experiment with reality.

Best wishes

[hilary]

Thanks, Jesed - good to hear what has and hasn't worked.

About Harmen's review - I think his point was not that Lo got it wrong, but that it's absurd to ask whether a tiny child can offer successful resistance to a murderer - and that getting the answer right isn't very convincing evidence for the efficacy of the method.

[jesed]

Maybe,... but Lo didn't ask that.

I'll try to explain better in this specific issue:

FBI presupossed that Bennet didn't resist the attack. In basis on this, they think the killer should be someone closer to her (farther, brother..); and didn't try-so-hard to find evidences related to this unthinkable resistence.

So, if the interpretation of Raymond Lo was correct, shows not only that father and brother wasn't involved (like Harmen said, NOW the press think they wasn't but not at that time), but FBI was totally wrong in it's investigation.

Of course, if the same answer would be obtein for propper persons in propper time (and of course, if they trust in that answer), it would be provide an important hint to the investigation: search better for struggle evidence??

Any way. better that each one experiment this by itself http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Best wishes

[clarissa]

"I think what I was trying to say was how to use the crosslines? and that it was not about text analysis"

See, that confuses me. I thought crosslines WERE about the text...that they determine which texts you read.

"What I was trying to open up was the art of divination which is very different from text analysis."

Maybe we should clarify something. What do you mean by "text analysis"?

"Try the technique I suggested? You might find it opens up a new approach for you."

Well, I thought I did. I mean..I did what I thought I was supposed to do...find the crosslines and then read the text. Am I way off here?

"Did I really sound Guru like? Perhaps my response was because you did not seem to do any work around what I had already said and then you asked another question on another subject?"

Yeah, you did come across as a little guru-ish. However, it may have just been a case of misunderstanding. I actually did read the text of those lines. Wasn't that what I was supposed to do? You suggested taking an old reading where I knew the outcome...and then trying the crossline thing on it. I screwed up because I was tired and you helped me. I then read the text of the lines. Right? Isn't that how you do it? Isn't it like watching the whole thing unfold?

[clarissa]

"What's more pragmatic and useful: an oracle that can give you advice to enable to improve your life, or a predictive tool that can show you glimpses of a future you're helpless to change?"

Hi Hilary,

I'm finding that the Yi does indeed give me, as someone here said, the "contours" of a situation. I was really taken aback how that
41->6 reading regarding that old friend of mine I recently got in touch with turned out....when he got back to me a few days later worried that he had cut me off during our phone conversation. So, there really WAS some sort of conflict-type situation going on after all.

I've also asked the Yi about another issue and the answers do seem spot on. Even if I sometimes don't understand the moving lines...the hexagrams themselves seem to accurately depict the situation.

[hilary]

Well, yes, they do tend to. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

And I can see the appeal of satisfying curiosity (or avoiding suspense!) by predicting the future. But it still sort of begs the question: what's all this for?

[heylise]

I guess there are two Yi's. One is a tool to improve your life, and the other is a coffee-table version. A tool to improve the conversation.

Both have their value, in their own place and right.

LiSe

[hilary]

I'm thinking that the main thing is to get a conversation going with one Yi or another. Who knows where that might lead?

[heylise]

Yes, guess you are right.. Who knows where spirits fly - or where they choose to land.

LiSe

[clarissa]

"Well, yes, they do tend to."

<grin>

"And I can see the appeal of satisfying curiosity (or avoiding suspense!) by predicting the future. But it still sort of begs the question: what's all this for?"

Well, I don't know really http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif Seriously, I do see the value in using the Yi to help one navigate a difficult situation.