Help with 59 > 29

[malka]

Hello there,

I wrote and posted the below message in the Divination area after reading a wonderful series by Pedro, Heylise, Anita and others on #59. But after further reading I learned that the place to ask for interpretations is limited to the Friends'Area. And so still being new here, I've decided to re-post my message:

*****

I'm reading with tremendous interested all these wonderful and articulate posts about 59! I'm still new to all this, and while the text analysis you are all capable of fascinates me, I am pretty stuck when it comes to applying all this to real life situations! I ask for your guidence and support as I learn, and please accept my apologies that I am not yet competent enough to offer too much back to you in return.

I received 59 with line 6 changing, resulting in 29. My question was about my relationship (that is on hiatus.) I asked, "What would be the effect on our relationship if I sent a letter?" (I had a specific kind of letter in mind, one where I was just utterly open and honest about what I had been thinking and feeling during our recent difficult time. I would say the kind of things I wasn't yet able to express at the time, because I couldn't yet articulate them for myself. Yet it's the kind of things that really needed and needs to be said.)

I welcome any guidence or support you can offer. Thank you.

[frandoch]

Hi Malka,

You have much to offer. Your questions are a gift. They make us search for understanding and growth, and they raise issues that we all have to deal with.

We all have difficulty in applying the ?Yi? to practical situations. You are not alone. It?s not just a case of asking a question and reading the answer off the page. We have to absorb the teaching, and allow our intuitive powers to guide us, as to how to act, to produce the best outcome of a situation. But, this best outcome may not always be what we think is best.

The Image of #59 is of a warm wind or a warm spring, which gently dissolves the hard ice. This suggests the correct way to deal with rigidity and harshness in our lives. The warmth is gentle, non aggressive, and accepts the ice. It doesn?t attack it. It gently dissolves it.

Line 6 is about departing from the situation, but this can be looked at in two ways - you could either leave the situation altogether, or you could remain with it, but change the way you look at it, change your perspective.

#29 is also about water - about how it flows around obstacles. It teaches us that the water accepts the obstacles, without judgement, and without feeling they should not be there. And after the water has passed through the difficult terrain, it?s still water - its essence has changed - it hasn?t been damaged.

In answer to your question, I would suggest that you write the letter - but be very careful to remove all traces of anger, resentment, bitterness or blame. Negative thoughts and emotions disconnect you from Spirit. The other party has the right to be whatever they need to be, but you have the right to explain how you feel. But do it with understanding, kindness, humility and care for that person.

Send the letter, but give up any expectation of the outcome. Do what you ?feel? is right and then let it go - let the universe handle the situation from there on. Trust that whatever happens is what should happen - that it?s exactly what you need at this point along your path. Trust that the universe is unfolding exactly as it should - that it?s perfection, even if you judge it to be otherwise.

Be gentle with yourself, and others.

Frandoch.

[frandoch]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

, it?s still water - its essence has changed - it hasn?t been damaged.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Malka,

That should read - 'its essence hasn't changed'

My apologies.

Michael F.

[malka]

Michael,

Thank you for your gentle and well-written interpretation. What you have to say feels right to me.

The letter I have in mind contains not a drop of blame, bitterness or anger, etc. as I do not feel any of these things towards him. I have felt a little frustration at one point, and mostly a little hurt, that he's just disappeared. But I also do not take it personally and I understand the disappearance in context to what came before: He experienced a very painful break-up that he described to me as "hell." It's my intuition that he isn't trusting his own judgement about women, e.g. what if it all happens again? Actually, he even said this early on, that he "doesn't want it all to happen again."

For all these reasons, I wonder if his attitude and fears might be the ice? What I feel for him, besides a little hurt, is compassion and caring. While he can sometimes be a wise-axx (which I kinda like! ;) with an edge, mostly I experience him as a very intelligent, sensitive and gentle man. The edge I suspect is for protection.

Because my question was worded as, "What would be the effect on our relaitonship if I send the letter?" do I interprete the 59 desciption of a need to eliminate blame, anger, etc, as a RESULT of the letter? Or am I being told that the result of the letter will itself be the gentle wind that melts the ice?

Lines also still confuse me. Do I read all of this in a linear format, or not? I have read various opinions on this and I'm curious about what others beleive. Is it possible that line 6 represents us leaving the old way (as in not currently talking) and moving on to a new way of relating? (as in talking again?) Is it a leaving of the situation as it was, or a leaving of the situation all together? How does one know?

Might 29 point to our moving through difficulties like the water moves around obstacles? Or again, am I to read this as though the letter itself causes the need to move through obstacles? What "feels" right to me is that as a result of my sharing with him from my heart in simple terms, it will lead to a situaiton where we are able to flow. But of course, this is just what I wish for. So how can I trust my own interpretation??

I get mixed up with reading my answers in context to exactly how I worded the question. I try to match the tense of the question to the tense of the answer. It's all still very confusing!

Again, I humbly accept the benefit of your and others' collective wisdom to help guide me through all this. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[frandoch]

Hi Malka,

I feel that if your letter is written without negative emotions, then the letter will be the gentle warmth that melts the ice. The worst case scenario is that it will achieve nothing - but it won't do any damage.

As for the lines, I cannot tell you what Line 6 means for you - I can only give you my interpretation, which along with others', you can absorb and allow your intuition to give you your answer.

Re #29, you say what 'feels' right for you. It may not lead to a situation where you can flow together - that may happen - but it will help you flow as a person - you will learn and you will grow.

I find that the best way to get an answer is not to think about it too much. After some time and effort with the thinking mind, let it go. Let your intuition work on it, maybe for days, and listen to your body. Consider each option one at a time and 'feel' what your body is telling you. There will be feeling of comfort or discomfort, often in the area of the solar plexus. There will be your answer. Your body is the interface between Spirit and you. As you practice this, the connection will get stronger.

We often confuse intuition with wishful thinking, but with intuition there is a 'knowing' - we don't have to think about it. If it is wishful thinking, there will always be a nagging doubt in the mind. You'll know.

[alexis]

Hi Malka,

My boyfriend and I were going through a separation just like yourself when I received this particular hexagram combo about 7 years ago. I struggled with it just as you are and looked at it from different angles of understanding. To make a long story short, my relationship to this particular person did not ever get back on the original track. Though I adopted the attitude suggested by the I Ching in my attempts to work things out, the underlying circumstances of who we were and what we were after as individual's would prove to be too divergent for a long-term partnership. The relationship required too many compromises and concessions on both our parts for it to ever work out smoothly. Only in time was I able to see the truth that in many ways, as partners go, he did not fit in with the person I was growing into and the lifestyle I was most attracted to. This doesn't mean that your situation is necessarily exactly the same but I thought that I would share my experience and perhaps it would help you to deal with your own situation.

Alexis

[malka]

Alexis,

Well, to be honest I'm unsure how sharing your situation in the maner you did, other than being upsetting to me, could possibly help me deal with my own situation?

I am sorry your relationship didn't work out. I'm sure that was painful for you. However, having been through such an experience yourself, perhaps you can relate to how you would have felt if someone wrote you the note you've just sent to me? At a time when I'm feeling vulnerable, and finding it difficult to stay close to my own experience, and asking for guidence and support from a new community of friends...your note just makes me want to cry. I don't find your note supportive or guiding.

Of course, I intellectually realize that your situation is totally different than mine, and that no true connection exists. But on an emotional level...your note hurts. I just can't imagine what possible support, or further understanding of the hexagram's you thought this would offer.

This doesn't mean I only want to hear from people who will tell me what I want to hear -- no. Clearly Frandoch shared line 6 and what may happen, or not happen, etc. But I am looking for help with interpreting what the I Ching is telling me in my situation...I suppose if what you had to share was a more detailed experience of how a particular line showed up in your life, or something that was more specific in terms of what to look for, etc. that might have been different...

Well, I'm going to end this because I'm not being very skillfull in my owrds, and I don't want to blame you for my feelings. I just need to go through what I'm going through, I guess...

[val]

Hi Malka...

Oh girlfriend, do I ever empathize with you! How many of those letters have I written? Oh geesh...I can't even count that high. And how many times was I sorry for sending them? I can't even count that high either.

I'm old and withered now...I don't have occasion to write so many such letters...*grin*, and I think if only I knew then what I know now.

Before you send that letter, I highly recommend you read John Grey's excellent book, "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus." I learned a long time before I got that book in the mail...quite by accident...that self-help books are pretty much useless when it comes to self-discovery...so I ignored it. For seven years it sat on the highest of my bookshelves unopened. Late one night, one of John Grey's infomercials came on, and he said something very profound...something I'd never realized before...having never been a man before...and it was an instant 'lightbulb' moment for me. From that moment on, I carried "Men Are From Mars..." everywhere with me until I finished reading it. And the tears just streamed, unstoppable, as I learned all the mistakes I had made over the years in my communications with the men I loved...one of the biggest being sending them those letters while they were in their caves.

Your man is in his cave. "Hiatus" is Martian for "I'm going into my cave now." He's working things out for himself...in his own way...which is the right way for him...thinking things out. He wants to be left alone. The best thing for a wife/girlfriend to do in that situation is to say, "Okay honey, I'm going to the movies/shopping/a cruise around the world, and I'll see you when you come out," and then leave him alone.

No doubt everything you've expressed in that letter are valid wants and desires, likes and dislikes...and no doubt they are issues that should be broached...eventually...at the appropriate time...when they come up again in the course of your relationship...but now, while he's on "hiatus", is not the appropriate time. If you're anything like me, it's the fear of losing him that motivates you to send that letter. I can't predict what your letter will do, but mine have only served to fulfill my fear. Actually, they fulfilled more than my fear...they fulfilled an inner need to sabotage the relationship so that I wouldn't have to feel the vulnerability, pain and fear that is inevitable in such a close relationship. But that was just me...then.

When people (men especially...*grin*) fall in love , when they experience that feeling of extreme vulnerability, when they think they might lose themselves to another...yet again, they experience fear...and they often back away. When they perceive no great danger, they come forward again. And they continue to do this until they feel safe in the relationship.

Relationships in their beginning stages seem to be something like two parallel wavy lines. Ideally, they would wave toward each and away from each other simultaneously, but that doesn't usually happen. Over time the waves gradually elongate until they more closely resemble two straight parallel lines. That's usually when talk of marriage or long-term commitment starts.

If I were in the 'back-up' or 'wave out' mode in a relationship, and I received such a letter, I would feel 'pushed,' and I would back up or wave out even further. But that's just me. I can't speak for anyone else. I can't speak for your man.

Now...as to 59. For me, that's always been about dispersing my feelings...not necessarily illusions...but sharing my feelings...dispelling any misunderstandings that get in the way of communication...and that seems to be what you're attempting to do.

As to 29...when I get 29 in such a situation, I hear the Yi say very loudly, "It will create a dangerous situation...don't do it!" And I slam the book shut, go to my outbox and rip the letter up. In my case any more, the outbox is in my email client and I hit the delete button...*grin*

It's great that you were able to sit down with yourself and define your wants and desires and likes and dislikes...to set parameters for yourself. But I really feel it's enough at this point in time for you to know them. If he's disappeared (gone into his cave), I feel it's absolutely not the appropriate time to share them with him.

Something else I was thinking about your situation. If I were in your position, having gotten 29, before sending that letter I would ask the Yi further questions, such as "What is the appropriate action to take at this time in this situation?" And if it doesn't answer, "If your horse really belongs to you, it will come back to you on it's own in seven days," then I'd ask again periodically as to the best action to take.

Another piece of advice I like from a woman who professes to be an expert on love thangs, Pat Collins, is to give that horse seven weeks to come back...be still...be quiet for up to seven weeks. If he's not back by then, he probably won't be coming back. Seven weeks seems so arbitrary to me, and I get a kick out of how it correlates to the Yi's "seven days", but I kind of enjoy making that my criteria for knowing whether to move on or not. She also said something else that is rather a generalization, but an excellent rule of thumb...

Women fall in love on dates...men fall in love between dates.

I'm sure it's little consolation, but he just might be in the process of falling in love right now...*grin*

I really hope this helps Malka.

Sincerely,

Val

[ann]

Val, I agree with every word you said. My reaction when I read 'Mars and Venus' was a little different from yours - having been married for 20 odd years I laughed my head off because I'm certain sure that JG had been in my living room listening to our conversations and arguments. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/blush.gif

If I'd read that book 20 years ago, I think life might have been a little simpler in our house!

Malka, you may find that Louise Hay's books are helpful. They are available from Hay House publishing, which is something like hayhouse.com

Good luck and I sincerely hope that things work out well for you

Ann

[val]

Malka...

Personally, I see a potentially positive outcome here. I hear the Yi saying "He's in his cave...he's falling deeper in love...do NOT disturb him now!"

Let's you, Ann and I go for a girl's night out, so you can get your mind off your (very valid) fear. Anyone else game?

Cheers!

Val

[malka]

Ann,

I can't beleive it! When your email came through just a few minutes ago, guess what I was doing? I was doing a search for Louise Hay because in the last several days I've developed thyroiditis (an inflammed thyroid that is very painful!) and I know she has written about it.

I'm just curious -- what made you suggest Louise Hay to me?

The thyroiditis came up on Wednesday, which is before I even started thinking about writing the letter. So I can't exactly make the leap that they are so connected... But I do know that the throat chakra is associated with communication. And Louise Hay seems to write about power issues, and head and heart connection issues as housed in the thyroid.

As for John Gray's books --

Val, thank you for the reminder. I have read all of his books. Your note reminds me of the point I keep forgetting! John Gray writes that when men are in their cave is NOT the time to make a connection for purposes of drawing them closer. He suggests that we should only do that when things are going well.

I guess no matter what I write, the truth is I'd send it because I want to be with him. He already knows how I feel. And he's expressed not being sure he's ready. I guess I just need to look at why that's been so difficult for me to accept.

So, what is the I Ching telling me? It sounds like my letter would help melt his ice. But it is that line 6 and 29 that I am not so sure about.

Another point I'd welcome feedback on: I cast this one using Hilary's online oracle. Typically, I haven't put as much stock in the online answers because I feel further away from them, and more connected to my coins that I hold in my own hand. What do others feel?

When I asked "What's the outlook for us in the next month of two?" a couple weeks ago, I received 20 unchanging. I don't think my question was worded very well, but 20 contemplation might be another way to talking about the cave, yes?

Interesting that the women think I shouldn't send the letter, and the one man who wrote back thinks I should!

[malka]

Val,

P.S. I like your suggestion to ask "What would be the appropriate action to take at this time in this situation?" I'm going to try this and see what I learn.

Thank you!

[heylise]

My experience is that electronic casting gives very appropriate answers, always, and coins sometimes not. Maybe throwing can be manipulated somehow, and electronic is absolutely out of any personal control.
Never thought I would switch to electronic, but after a few tries I was sold.

Can I join the girl's night out? Great!!

LiSe

[frandoch]

Hi there ladies, I want an invite to the girlie night out.

I may be a male - but I'm from Venus. Probably one of your slaves - you need lesser persons to keep your bloody planet going - so that you can crow about how you don't need men - but I note that many of you consume vast quantities of Mars (bars)

And from LiSe - switching to electr..no we wont go down that road./

I love you really

Michael F. (Frandoch)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[val]

Hey LiSe...

You just got me thinking. How about it? How about a girl's night out in the chat room here...or a Sunday afternoon or something? Where we can talk about girlie things?

No Michael! I'm wearing my special secret 'psychic' x-ray glasses and I can see you're really a manly man...good try though...but you can't come!...*grin* Here's a thought...why not organize a boy's night out?

Cheerio the noo,

Val

[val]

PS Michael...

FYI, I won't speak for the others, but I won't be crowing about how I don't need a man in my life. I do! And I'm just going to stop there on thatsubject...*grin*

Cheerio the noo,

Val

Yet another PS...I have cat-in-the-lap syndrome at the moment, so I can't be held liable for any typos in this post.

[frandoch]

Hi ladies,

I promise you won't know I'm there. I have a pink tutu, and I look very feminine - but you might have to overlook the beard, the walking boots, the cigar and fairy wand - a toilet plunger, but decorated with tinsel.

I will blend in with you dear ladies - trust me.

Michael F.

[tashiiij]

frandoch you sound dangerously fetching!

you may not leave alone!

[frandoch]

tashiiij

promises promises

Michael F.

[alexis]

Dear Malka,

I'm very sorry for upsetting you. It was not my intention to hurt you at all and I certainly didn't expect you to take my sharing of my experience personally. Not at all. Perhaps I should have mentioned that we (my boyfriend and I) have become extremely good friends since then. Maybe that's why I didn't consider how painful this all is for you right now... but I better shut up before I stick my foot in my mouth all over again. I'm so so sorry.

Alexis

[malka]

Well, I took Val's advice and asked, "What is the most appropriate action for me to take in my currnet situation with XX? Answer: 49, Revolution with lines 3 and 6 changing to 25, Innocence! Now I'm really confused!

I've read all the translations I have, and the best I can do with it all is that I need to change inside, maintain a sense of equinimity (mentioned in the translaiton of both hexagrams) and be spontaneous. (Which I think also means NOT to send the letter, because that would be something planned and I think the advice is more about not planning...I think.

I will welcome your thoughts on 49 > 25!

P.S. Girls night sounds great!

[anita]

Hi Malka, First let me say, that personally I would rather throw the coins than gop electronic, although I have seen a couple ofn times the same hexagrams pop up that way too.

Anyway' first 59 line 6. - The flood at first seems terrible but it sweeps fear away as it recedes. This is a good sign. The Yi asks you to to worry about his disappearance. Cause for sorrow will vanish. And it doesn't mean that like in Ann's case, the relationship will change into something else. Also, as Marshall points out, 6 moving leads (and so does Karcher) to the next hex - and that's 60. One needs to work or act within the limits of one's situation amd one must set these limits. And then you have 29 which says go ahead take the risk. Act. Move. Don't stay still. 'If there is faithfulness in your heart you will be blessed.'

When you do write- and why not if it helps dispels the sorrow, just don't expect him to write back right away - 60. And after that don't keep writing. Let him heal himself in his cave.

And hmmm...the nuclear hexagram in 59 is 27 -- nourish yourself and otehrs, but be careful what comes out of your mouth. Even 29 has 27 as its nuclear!

As to 49- line 3 refers to discussing things with him -- only then you will be believed, and 6 speaks of not using force but still being seen from afar - the leopard's spots acn be seen from afar. That means he senses your love and a great change will take place. But you must be satisfied with that change and not make any further demands when the change takes place. 25 is about that - not asking for or expecting too much, but acting from sincerity and innocence. If the letter is spontaneous, go ahead with it. Isn't it the first thought that comes to mind when you need to communicate and melt the ice? How else do you do that? Again your 49 changes to 50 -- a lovely hexagram. This too speaks of a new ruling regime -- a new time to come.

Meanwhile the nuclear hex in 49 is 44! Coming to meet Mate. And in 50 it's 43 - breakthrough - speak up. Speak frankly.

Marshall suggests that when you get two lines, look at the uppermost as most important. So think of that. You have line 6 in both hexagrams.


Best for your Quest

Anita

[ann]

Hi Malka

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply - I've not been near my computer. I suggested Louise Hay because I think she talks a lot of sense. Also, when you are feling all fraught, her tapes are very calming. No other reason really.

Wishing you all the very best

Ann

[malka]

Anita, thank you for giving me something to really think about!

I'm open to any further thoughts about 49 > 25 as I work on my interpretation skills! Thanks.

[malka]

Ann, thanks for the Louise Hay thought. A friend of mine had my book and has just returned it in the mail. I'm looking forward to taking a good look at it this weekend.

Also on the subject of calming tapes, I'm currently listening to "To Love and Be Loved" by Stephen and Ondrea Levine and it is WONDERFUL! For anyone interested in spiritual growth, grief, and the healing power of relationships, this is very appropriate.

And....if anyone can help with 49>25 I will accept your assistance! Thank you!

[pedro]

I dont have more than a glimpse of what your situation might be, and there is not much to add to this thread. But maybe another digression can still be of some help

59's meaning may be that the ego is driving you two appart. What and why, you have to ask yourself (wish I could answer that even for me), but sometimes the egotistic needs disguise themselves as even genrous acts. But dont worry, you two are not alone, the ego is what drives us all appart. We think more often of our needs than theirs, thats nature's way of self preserving, its a natural response. But we have also discernment, we can shift our attention from the "how can I", to the "how can them", or "how can I help them... whatever". And it becomes easy to do this when we realise (realising it is the hard part) that the simple fact of pursuing (egotistically) our goals, apparently nature's intention to make us self sufficient (we wouldnt have it hard-coded if it wasnt), is what prevents, in the first place, both our judgement from being accurate, and our accomplishment of these goals to succeed. Wanting this things so bad can be the most certain way to never accomplish them. It will if it deprives us of our independence, our self sufficiency

Nothing is immutable though, best lesson I learned from the YI. When things are perfect, we know for sure that there is only one way they can go, and that is down (the "superior man" doesnt let this sadden him, though: #55). But from this perspective, it can be even better when things are completely bad, because then we're presented with a certainty: that they can only improve (at the bottom of the pit, the only way is up, trust me), and an opportunity: the chance to make things right this time.

29 six at top is not so favorable, but dont let it upset you. Yi's lines are more advice than definitive omens, you have it always in you the power to change. Dont let the admonishing words put you down, make them an incentive to grow further. As someone (Supa?) so well put it, these are challenges, not definite omens. Everything is open, the yi just tells you where youre headin right now, the moment you ask (ask again and it may have changed). Its like a compass, showing you the trend, and how to change it if you will. Its not pointing an inevitable fate.

The overall meaning of 29 sugests recurrent danger, getting used to dangerous situations. Maybe there are issues that any of you sistematically avoids facing, or troubles that keep coming back, and should be dealt with. Or perhaps some weakenesses that are not overcome, dependencies of any kind. But it neednt be bad, 29 shows also the way to overcome the dangers, just be like water... Although 29 speaks of dangers and abysses, its judgement is one of the most beautiful: "If you're sincere, you have success in your heart, and whatever you do succeeds". We only need to fear danger when we have guilt. One who is sincere will have no guilt, no remorse, and danger wont harm him

Bottom line, I would say the Yi is telling you that a lot is involved right now. Either your mind is too unsettled, or the situation has some hidden tensions that make it difficult, but by no means intransponible. You have it all in you to succeed, just dont try so hard. Let yourself be, really BE, and it will all work well

There is only one way to look the creator in the eye. What we deserve comes to us (so lets deserve it!!), let nothing convince you otherwise. What we're inocent, pure, enough to receive, shall be given to us.

[pedro]

49->25: Shedding the old skin, becoming natural, innocent, like a child. Let your old self go, dont tread the same old paths, dont be afraid to rock the boat, strip yourself of everything but your precious essence. Drop everything and just leave your connection to the divine. Look at yourself without any clothes, without any body, any mind, any skins, just the bare soul. What is it you see?

[malka]

Pedro, thank you very kindly for your thoughts. Unfortunately, for an intelligent woman I'm still feeling stuck as to what to do next...I'm going to give myself this week to continue to meditate and see what arises from my heart...

[bradford_h]

Dear Malka
I'd have to say that there aren't many lines in the whole Yijing that are more clear about advising emotional detachment, getting distance, and Not asking what your emotions are saying. That doesn't mean being cold, only being more expanded, more open, more "dispersed".
B

[malka]

Bradford, I want to understand what you're saying, and I'm a little lost. Which line are you referring to? Could you please say more about your interpretation as I'm still learning and not too quick. Thank you!

[bradford_h]

Hi-
This is about as literal a translation of the top line of 59 as I can make:

59.6, Top 9
Dispersing one?s (hot-)blood(edness)
Getting distance
Far away to reappear
No blame

59.6x
Dispersing one?s (hot-)blood(edness):
Removed from suffering

Zhi Gua 29: Kan, Exposure

I think it should be self-expalnatory.
Again, detachment is not numbness.
But any involvement that leads to suffering
can be considered optional here.

[chrislofting]

Malka,

re the question : "What would be the effect on our relaitonship if I send the letter?"

hexagrams 29 and 59 form at pair in the binary I Ching.

hex 59 covers in general the dispelling of illusions, the making clear of something, the lifting of the 'fog'.

hex 29 covers in general the containtment of something and so the gaining of control.

Note the common theme in both hexagrams re control through clarity that is itself a containement.

The trigram of water in the LOWER position reflects a focus on containment. The trigram in the UPPER position reflects containment doubled = control.

of this particular pairing hexagram 29 reflects a focus on integrating (top line is yin) as compared to hexagram 59 that reflects a focus on differentiating (top line yang).

The change from 59 to 29 reflects a basic process of differentiating leading to integrating all within the one theme - making things clear leads to establishing control.

In the traditional sequence 59 is paired with 60 where both reflect making things clear, in 60 this is achieved through introduction of standards.

As for opposites - in the binary sequence 59 opposes 55 where in the latter the diversity, the abundance etc can 'confuse' perceptions, there is too much and so a 'lack' in clarity.

In the traditional sequencer 59 opposes 06 where again there is a sense of 'dispelling illusions' reflected in hex 06 focus on compromise as a specific form of dealing with 'illusions'.


As for 49 to 25 : "What is the most appropriate action for me to take in my currnet situation with XX?"

49 deals with revelation, revolution, to unmask.
25 deals with disentanglement, to stand up and say what you need to say without fear (or ignoring, innocense of) consequences of one's actions.

49 pairs in the binary sequence with hexagram 13. Overall focus on 'like mindedness'. 13 is differentiating ('us' vs 'others'), 49 is integrating (act of revolt, revelation serves to integrate).

25 pairs with 17. 25 differentiates, 17 focuses on integrates. Both deal in general with belief systems, faith in self, etc etc

In the traditional sequence 49 pairs with 50 and as such reflects transformation in general (revelation vs 'cooking')

Chris.

[hilary]

Hello Malka,

Looking at the first question - 'What would result from sending the letter?', and 59 line 6...

If this is not a direct answer to your question, but advice that overrides it, it means 'run miles from this idea!' - like Bradford said. Speaking for myself, I'm always more inclined to take the answer on trust as a direct response to the question: this seems to work well.

If it's a direct answer, then it's most likely to mean that the letter would disperse ill-feeling, have good results. And yet... this depends to a large extent on the nuances of the question. Were you looking for a description of results for the relationship as a whole, or reaction from Him in particular? Because as an individual reaction to the letter, it sounds like: 'Help, emotional danger, get out, run away!'

So the answer could mean two completely opposite things, for three different reasons. Brilliant, thank you, Hilary, very helpful...

Advice readings, thank heavens, are always easier. What to do? Radical Change, Without Entanglement.

Hexagram 25 is a demanding one. 'Entanglement' means aiming to change him, worrying about the future, finding your perception and action warped by the desire to push the river (and probably to push it back upstream). If you don't set yourself straight and come from a firm foundation, you can't see straight, and there can be no good results from anything you set out to achieve. (Ouch.) So 49 with 25 is something like radical change without attachment to the results. (Aren't these things lovely and easy to write?)

49, a change of skin, overthrowing the old ways of relating and structuring the relationship, completely throwing out the old patterns. Timing and its critical importance is a major theme of this hexagram - finding 'your own day'. Judging from the Image, your own inner knowledge (what Michael was talking about) needs to be complemented by more objective 'charting' of larger scale patterns (perhaps like that undertaken by John Gray).

Both lines say: 'to set out to bring order, pitfall'. Trying to make the change happen and come out as you wish - sending the letter, or doing anything else, in order to get a certain result, is a dead end. But judging from line 3, you do need to open communications. A revolution is not the same thing as a conquest: you need consensus to begin. I wonder how much he does, in fact, know of your feelings and intentions. I know that sounds absurd when you've already told him - but what you tell and what goes in are not always the same thing.

I'd see the next line as some way into the future, after the talk of change has gone round between you a few times. Line 6 suggests, I think (though there are plenty of alternative interpretations...) that this is not an equal partnership in change. If one person transforms completely and gracefully as a leopard, and the other reacts to this with a radical change of face to fit with the new order of things, then this is a good place to rest content - and not a good foundation for attempting to forge the perfect relationship.

Hope some of this makes some sense!

[malka]

Hilary, thank you for adding your thoughts to this. I can officially say that I am at a loss. The feedback I have received from people is mixed and confusing. This is why I said I'm leaning towards just exiting myself from the I Ching altogether, and just meditating until I feel an answer that is right for me.

Part of my reason for this is that so much of the feedback is written by people who understand this stuff better than I, and it seems to be written in "code." Brad, Chris, and part of what Pedro wrote: I thank you all for responding to me, but I just don't get what you're saying or where/how you're applying what you're saying. As "text interpretation" I can see that you're well educated and I do sincerely appreciate the sharing. Yet what's been written is too abstract for me to apply in life, or to know where/how to apply. Hilary brings it a little more into concrete real life terms, but then what she suggests the I Ching is advising me is so different from Ann, Frandoch, Anita that I'm lost. For sake of discussing the complexity of the I Ching in general as an intellectual exercise this has been quite fascinating. But being a person who is truly trying to learn about her life, understand a relationship, and discren about what action to take or not take -- this has been a very disappointing process.

Well, maybe I'm doing what 49 > 25 tells me afterall? I'm walking away from all this and just leaving myself with my inner connection to the divine in meditation.

[hilary]

Ouch. But I do see exactly what you mean. Intellectual exercise, fascinating; consensus on advice, no. (But bear in mind that some of the advice came from personal conviction rather than Yi-reading.) Divination is meant to be a way of opening that inner connection to the divine - and other people's voices on the sidelines may open doors, or they may have nothing to do with it at all.

My personal take on it would be that sending the letter as originally conceived would be or would have been a mixed blessing: opening communication, but quite possibly opening it too far, too fast - frightening intensity. I think the second reading is very clear: you need open communication, but free from any agenda about what the relationship will look like in the end. (This is a guess, but you might need to act on line 3 before you find the application of line 6.)

But all that is just another voice from the sidelines http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[chrislofting]

Malka,

lets try a different approach, based on some generic questions about your interpretation of things. Go to this link and answer the questions and let us know what you got.

Proactive I Ching (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html)

Chris.

[val]

Malka...

The YiJing is a many-layered book. At its base layer, it is an historical account of ancient China. There are fascinating stories of ancient people and events such as kings, princes, sages and consorts, battles, earthquakes, floods and a total solar eclipse.

At another layer, there is every kind of advice...from the practical everyday variety to the spiritual variety. At yet another layer, there is a path to your inner voice, and beyond that is the path between heaven and earth.

As to this forum, yes, there are a variety of values and beliefs and approaches to the YiJing expressed here, and it can be confusing in the beginning. But, with time and an open mind, one can begin to tap into the incredible richness of the Book.

I came here an atheist and pretty much ignorant about the YiJing, and I was pretty overwhelmed by the variety of interpretations. Over time I learned to just listen intuitively. Something always 'clicks' for me out of the cacophony. It may not always be the answer I want to hear...but...it's always the right answer...without fail.

I have had some amazing conversations with the Yi as a result of coming here and listening to the learned. I have gotten excellent practical everyday advice...about love, money, job, healthcare, pet care, maimed wild bird care...*grin*...and I've made a couple of trips within for some amazing self-discovery (and lived to tell about it...*grin*). I found God here as well.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

PS I've found some pretty cool people here as well...*grin*

[lilian]

Malka, I can feel with you. With the trouble of applying an interpretation to my question, to my daily life as well as with sending a letter to try to open up communication.

However, often I have found that people's behaviour has little or nothing to do with me. Most of the time it has to do with them. Now, when I'm attempting to invest a lot of time and (emotional) energy to send them a letter, I ask myself: If I get the same "answer" to my letter - more of the same, maybe no reaction, will I feel better? Or would it make me feel worse? If it makes me feel better, I send it, feeling I've done what was possible... or maybe I write it but not send it...

This might not work for you, and it's still one more voice from the sidelines...
Lots of luck for the right decision!

[malka]

Update: I had a breakthrough, and ended up writing a completly different kind of letter than I had ever imagined when I first consulted Yi. My whole thinking about him, and the situation has shifted. And so I asked, What will be his reaction to receiving the letter I wrote tonight?

Answer: 55 Abundance with 1,3,4,and 5 changing to 8, Union!

Please tell me, what does it eman to have so many changing lines? Thanks.

[val]

Lilian...

So true. Excellent advice.

Malka...

I'm focused on HIS reaction when I interpret this reading. And I'm very much the novice at this. I'm going by my gut mostly, and I'll leave the details to the more learned on this forum.

Here's one of those wonderful things I learned here. Hexagram 55 is about an actual solar eclipse that preceded an important battle between the Zhou and Shang dynasties. Steve Marshall wrote a wonderful book entitled "The Mandate of Heaven" after having done exhaustive research, wherein he pinpoints the most probable date of this eclipse and time of this battle. There's tons of other revelations about the Yi as an historical record in his book as well, and it's well worth the read.

Your man friend's many changing lines have moved through the phases of the eclipse, and the eclipse is now on the wane. The light is returning. Your most important line is the governing ruler of the hexagram, and it's the last changing line you received...six in the fifth place. The person, thing, idea, whatever that was eclipsing him in his seeking union is now on the wane, and "blessing and fame" draw near. He can now proceed on his way.

This line and the one above it actually represent the choices faced by King Wu of the Zhou dynasty regarding this battle. His father, King Wen, had just died and the proper course of action for him would have been to stay in the mourning hut, screening off his family and seeing no one for a period of three years. But he saw the eclipse as an omen to proceed in battle against the Shang dynasty. He saw blessing and fame draw near, so he chose the way of line 5 instead of line 6. He won the battle, by the way...*grin*...and the rest is history.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

[chrislofting]

Val,

Note that hexagram 55, or any other hexagram for that matter is not about the particular of X, X is used as a source of analogy to describe the generic qualities of hexagram 55 etc. IOW there is more 'beneath' the local labels attributed to ancient Chinese history/mythology etc etc

The I Ching is a specialisation of a generalisation, the generalisation being the manner in which we as a species derive meaning. At that level there is no difference across cultures within the species - our brains, in general, all work in the same way to derive meaning. Local nuances then 'skew' interpretations to add some 'colour' ;-)

The specialisation is where we take this generic set of universal meanings encoded into the brain and 'ground' them in a particular context - the I Ching reflects the grounding of these meanings in ancient China etc and as such the recruitment of the local context as analogy to describe the properties of these universal meanings - this gets us into self-referencing and differences between ontology, words about reality, and epistemology, words about the words about reality.

The ease in which the I Ching is understood outside of ancient China is due to the universal meanings behind the local words/symbols etc., we all find meaning by resonance, we can easily make analogies to our immediate, non-chinese, environment that reflects 'yin/yang' etc.

IOW the I Ching, as a source of meaning, is not 'Chinese' but is the reflection of our species nature through the Chinese culture. Thus you will find common ground between the I Ching and Qabalah or Tarot or Astrology etc etc etc in that behind all of these specialisations is the mindset of the species.

The I Ching aids in fleshing out that species mindset - all of the specialisations are as such metaphors for what the brain deals with universally - objects and relationships, aka differentiations and integrations, aka yang and yin - different contexts elicit different labels for the same things.

You can, and most do, focus on the particulars of ancient Chinese history etc etc to understand the I Ching 'as is', but at the same time this grounds all thinking in the 10th century BC where the specialisation is in 'melding' one's mind with that of 10th century BC thinking.

This '10th century BC' thinking can be an interesting exercise but also perhaps misses some of the main points re the use in general of the I Ching by introducing some 'confusion' into intepretations of what the meaning is 'now' as compared to the traditional analogy to 10th century BC local context that is used to describe that meaning.

There is also the path of bringing the IC into the 21st century, not as an esoteric representation of ancient China but as a highly detailed, robust, representation of our species nature as a whole.

Each collective, each individual, on the planet can write their own I Ching (and it is a good exercise to do so) simply by understanding the generic patterns of meaning derived from applying recursion to yin/yang, 0/1, integrate/differentiate - which is what the brain does - and the ancient Chinese did in the mapping of the qualities of yin/yang to local events - thus the core sensations, as undifferentiated wholes, are then differentiated, we focus on parts, and use that differentiation to re-integrate the whole.

IOW meaning is 'hard coded' at the species level, a very general level of 'holistic' communications and our consciousness then uses this invarient set of meanings to describe unique context and it does that through the creation of words/symbols that map these universals to a context.

Thus hexagram 55, at the really generic level of our species nature reflects a context of parts within which is operating a text of dynamic relationships. Those terms of 'parts' and 'dynamic relationships' reflects patterns of meaning too general for our consciousness to deal with (but our brain can) such that we re-label the terms to fit a context, a context of 'fire' and a text of 'thunder' and we then look around the local context to ground those associations even further and so 'entangle' the universals with the context - and so out pops the I Ching ;-)

The work on trying to decode the I Ching in the context of where it developed from is interesting but I think one needs to look at the level of the species nature to understand the WHY of the I Ching - there is a lot more than its expressed roots in ancient China.

Best regards,

Chris.
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting

[dharma]

Hi Chris,

Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. Over the years many people have developed new versions of tarot and I have always wondered if the same could be done with I Ching.

Questions:

Have you yourself created your own version? Is it available?

Where might one go on your site (or elsewhere) for some helpful ideas and direction in the process of creating one for oneself?

And, do you think that one could realistically approach such a project without fully grasping all the intricacies of your theories or the underlying 'mathematics' that give rise to I Ching in the first place? In this sense, how different would the process of creating a more personal version of I Ching be from creating a more personal version of some other form of divination? Tarot, for instance. How flexible or rigid can I expect the process to be?

Thanks! Dharma

[chrislofting]

Hi Dharma,

my IC PLUS material covers the general application of IDM to the I Ching but I will put an email on this forum titled 'The Species I Ching' - it contains enough to get you off the ground in building your own IC - focused on basic feelings. If you need help then just ask, I am not very busy at the moment! ;-)

For the ICPLus interpretations etc see the links off the homepage - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/newindex.html

It is all 'dynamic' and so updated a lot! (the latest essays are at http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/newindex2.html )

Chris.

[malka]

Whew -- lots going on here.

Chris, I peaked at your website. Have you considered the relaitonship of people's MBTI to their ability to work with Yi? I'm an INTP so I'm definately analytically oriented. But I've also learned how important it is for me to bring that process inside for true understanding.

Lilian, thank you. Yes I agree that something like a letter must be sent because I have something to say, and I need to be okay with that no matter what happens.

Val, your thoughts about 55 were great to read. Thank you. One thing this whole situation is teaching me is that when I next receive these same answers for a different situation, the hex's won't be so forgein to me. I'll have lived with them, through them, and have a personal sense of them that I haven't had this time around. I suspect this is part of what makes the Yi a living book - people engaging with it personally.

I once heard that when so many lines are changing in a situation that the situation is vilotile - that's part of why I asked about the lines. Val's interpretation about then indicating a progression with the last line as a resting place is interesting indeed. Is this the generally accepted view of reading lines that other's share also?

[chrislofting]

Hi Malka,

the mapping of I Ching and MBTI is covered in the page http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/MBTIX.htm

The overall bias in referencing such tools as the I Ching seems to be N oriented and as such maps to more use by NT/NF temperaments (solution seekers and identity seekers) in a context of the analytical. SP/SJ temperaments (sensation seekers and security seekers), if they use the IC, take it all 'as is' - what you see is what you get.

My 'type' is XNTP with a subtle bias to I over E.

The 'totem' for XNTPs is the trigram of thunder. For the others:

XNFP - earth
XNFJ - mountain
XSFJ - water
XSTJ - wind
XNTJ - fire
XSFP - lake
XSTP - heaven

Through the I Ching we can refine things such that the XNTP split into two groups of four hexagrams (and so eight persona expressions):

INTPs - 24, 27, 03, 42
ENTPs - 51, 21, 17, 25

Chris.

[anita]

Malka,
Glad you finally wrote the letter. In fact Hilary too said that expression was important but how you express was important and that I too did mention. I can already sense your release from tension after writing it!

Best for your Quest

Anita

[malka]

Anita,

Yes, thank you for noticing. I do feel better.

If there is any simple teaching about what it means to have so many changing lines (4 of them as 55 moves to 8) or how to read multiple lines, I'd welcome it.

All the best to you,
Malka

[louise]

I'm amazed that you express 'disapointment' with people's various interpretations Malka !! Truly amazed ! Flabbergasted - definately a first for this forum ! People take the time and trouble to give their views, and you are 'disapointed' ? I could see nothing offensive in Alexis post at all - its clear you only want answers you want to hear - as happens so often with questions about relationships.

People seem to be able to put a spin on the most negative answers pertaining to their lovers (particularly women) I sometimes wonder what answer the Yi could give them to convince them 'this relationship is over, rotten, not good'.

I'm not implying that yours is, there many ways to look at it as others have said. But I've seen this before here.... a woman asks a relationship question - if others even ever so gently try to say 'it doesn't look so good, withdraw, forget it it' they get upset. If you don't want the truth, don't consult the Yi and get annoyed with those who tell you what you don't want to hear.

[malka]

Louise, to learn how things ended up in my relationship (it's over!) please read the "Well, well,...who knew" thread I just posted today.

As for my disappointment: I hope I stated clearly enough my appreciation to all who have taken their time to share. However, so many of the answers were highly intellectual and analytical, and as a newbie who was seeking practical advice, I couldn't make the connection. I trust that as I gain more experience with Yi it will become a smoother process to apply the teachings into everyday life.

[frandoch]

Malka - it will pass.

Louise - true strength is gentle.

Michael F.

[louise]

Frandoch I have never claimed to have 'true strength', nor do I have any wish to appear to have it if I do not not. So whats the point of telling me what true strength is ??

I've apologised to Malka on her other thread anyway, for giving her grief, when she was already grieving (having not read her latest thread)

So there Frandoch ! (sticks tongue out)

[frandoch]

Ooohhh Louise,

You are so gorgeous when you're wild. Those sparkling eyes and that throbbing tongue - WOW.

Michael F.

[val]

Malka...

Who knew? The Yi knew. And they told you in hexagram 55 to 8, line 5. An afterthought I had, but decided not to post at the time and am glad I didn't because the timing was just was not right, is that the Yi was very possibly speaking to you too.

The uncertainty of the situation was eclipsing you as well. By sending that letter, you opened a door for him to achieve closure for both of you. Now you can proceed on your way...move on...as well.

It's all good...after the rain and the pain...and the growth that will result from this experience...you'll meet someone even more suited for you because you'll be ready.

The good news is he was a mensch and didn't keep you hanging on in uncertainty. He responded immediately with a truth he undoubtedly didn't like having to tell you, and let you go. I don't imagine it's any consolation at the moment, but it just goes to show what good judgment you have.

Here's a box of Kleenex and a hug.

Sincerely,

Val