Pun intended... :-)

[sparhawk]

Hello all:

I've been reading Chris Lofting for years already, his messages on this and other forums, some of them dormant, some still active. I still cannot wrap myself around some kind of clear understanding of what he is trying to say. More than likely it has to do with my IQ numbers and not Chris fault.

In any case, this morning I was reading todays paper and I read one of my favorite cartoons: Dilbert. After the chuckle, the first thing that came to my mind was Chris Lofting. Here is the link:

Dilbert - Aug-09-03 (http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2003081524509.gif)

That's sums it up for me... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smile.gif

Cheers,

Luis

[louise]

Ha ! What I can never figure out, and I may have asked once, is does Chris consult the Yi about situations in his own life or anyone elses - or is that completely irrelevant to him - to me thats the fundamental missing link - Chris's personal self that could possibly one day speak to us as people, so we could connect and understand. All those numbers just make my brain recoil - I do understand something of what he is saying, but I am doubtful if anyone here fully understands everything he is saying - if they do maybe they'd care to interpret - thats a challenge
to all here because sometimes I think we have an 'emporers new clothes situation'. I think Chuko made a good point on another thread that maybe Chris's ideas would find better reception on a maths forum ?

Actually any teacher knows that to reach students you need to make human contact and to come to the level of the student. One time Dharma I think compared Chris to Christ whom everyone thought was mad because they did not understand him - but even Christ used stories and parables.

Personally I do not feel remotely stupid for 'not getting' alot of what Chris says. Its a lesson for him - he can go on and on and post as many of his own links as he likes, but until he engages as a human being speaking to other human beings I fear he maybe somewhat frustrated in his aims -

What is he saying - this is all I think I've got so far - and it ain't much....

Is it that at one time we needed stories, myth to understand and make sense of our experience, hence stories in Yi. Now we are in a position to dispense with those because our brains have developed to the extent we can observe our own neurobiological functioning from a distance, regard it as specific to our species, find the root of all experience, feeling, in brain patterns/pathways that are inherent to our species, um and this is somehow linked to binary sequences, these sequence being linked to modalities of brain functioning ? Okay thats all I 'get' and I'm not ashamed to admit it - but then where does that proposition actually lead us ? We are still asking the questions we asked for millenia, ie 'should I marry x', blah, blah, blah.

Anyway I hereby issue a challenge to anyone out there to sum up Chris's fundamental ideas much more clearly than I can. I'm not asking Chris himself because I won't understand him. So come on, is there anyone out there who is willing to give their understanding of Chris's message - its time we came out, stopped feeling stupid, and bit through this - otherwise Chris will go on and on explaining and we'll sit there staring at pages of 'binary sequences'.

[dharma]

Hello Louise,

I don't recall ever saying that Chris was comparable to Christ but I do think I might have said something about believing in his efforts as relevant enough to share, despite the fact that very few people can understand where he's coming from right now (and may be not ever).

Though I personally still have an extremely hard time with Chris' material, I think that he has as much right to being here, as any one of us does. We all have different reasons and agendas for being present and some of them may have nothing to do with I Ching at all but I don't see anyone else being shown the door unless their method of communicating was approved of by the majority.

Chris himself has said that he understands that he has a tendency to speak in terms that most others have a hard time with and that he is attempting to correct this by rephrasing and repeating himself. This is not unlike meeting a foreigner who is attempting to share company with people who do not speak his native language. What matters is that he is trying. Receptivity in the form of a warmer welcome, despite his differences, may be more conducive to his success in reaching us than being made to feel like an outsider.

This is just my opinion - not meant to be an attack on anybody else's feelings about the matter - and sorry for talking about you Chris like you weren't standing in the room listening.

In anycase, I found the comic strip funny and fitting. Chris, I hope you have a sense of humor because I'm sure that it was not Luis' intention to offend but to lighten things up around here. He seems to have the knack for that (btw, Luis, having compared your picture to those that Martin shared yesterday of Carlos Castandea, I could swear that you were a younger version of him come to practice his sorcery on us! Perhaps you ARE him in disguise http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif ...kinda like a new age Elvis in hiding right here under our very noses!) http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

with http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/heart.gif to all,
Dharma

[sparhawk]

Of course, my intention was not to offend Chris, whom I think has a bigger sense of humor than anyone would give him credit for, but, with a little humor, to express some of frustration that his writings and ideas have created in the majority of his audience, not only in this forum but in quite a few others.

I've been following Chris's writings ever since I subscribed to the old Hex-8 mailing list (perhaps six or seven years ago) and I am modest enough to admit that his theories fly way over my head. On the other hand, I would like to think that this is due to the fact that I have a very short attention span to digest something of the magnitude of Chris's theories when in a practical world I don't need any of it to use the Yi and draw comprehensive answers from it. I've been doing it for almost 30 years and have no regrets.

I seriously take off my hat to Chris. For the time he took to place his ideas down in black and white and for the apparent infinite patience he's been having, for years already, explaining his ideas to everyone that asks him. The sole fact that he understands himself if worthy of admiration http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif. For all that I would like to extend Chris a big THANK YOU! Seriously.

Now Dharma, is it a good thing or a bad thing that you find my picture and Castaneda's somewhat similar?? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif (Sometimes I find myself more at ease playing the role of the village idiot than that of a serious practitioner with his very own set of theories and beliefs)

Regarding Castaneda and his work, I've read many of his books, not all of them though. Sorcerer? Me? I dunno.... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

I know you are joking, but it would be interesting to note here that our/my native culture, the extended Hispanic family (which includes people of all colors, backgrounds and religious beliefs, united by a common language), is very comfortable among everyday magic. What for most people in the Western Anglo/Saxon world is dismissed off-hand as hocus-pocus nonsense, is for us an everyday dialog with the spirit world. I may be generalizing my views to the extreme but I do believe that if you scratch the surface of the most hardened Hispanic convert to Western materialism you will find this dialog simmering below the surface. Castaneda is a good example of one such person that tried to bring a glimmer of that dialog to the rest of the world.

Well, this was completely off topic.

My http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/heart.gif goes back to you,

Luis

[chrislofting]

Hi all,

no offence taken. ;-)

Chris.

[lenardthefast]

Louise,

I think you did a marvelous job of summing-up the parameters of Chris's posts. You actually came up with one more thing than myself. As far as where Chris should post, I believe that he should just go on doing what he has been doing. There are members here who apparently are gaining information from his posts and that is fine by me. Personally, for the most part, they leave me saying "Whaaat?". But thats OK, 'cause I just delete them unread, and proceed to the next item of MY interest.

I would hate to have him not post here and deprive the members who are gaining information from said posts.

Just my silly opinion; once again. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif.

Namaste,
Leonardhttp://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/hex04.gif

[louise]

Thankyou Leonard ! I see though no one's taken up my challenge, leading me to conclude no one really knows. The consensus here at the moment seems to be "we don't know what he's talking about, therefore he must be cleverer than us" I don't buy this attitude - having enough intellectual confidence to know that with some effort I can usually get a grasp on most theories - if not the maths behind them.

Never understood your dramatic turn a round with regard to Chris, Dharma. One time I remember you wrote a fantastic post where you said words to the effect of "if you want to get your message over, stop blinding us with science, what is your intention, is it really to aid understanding".
It was quite a rant, but it certainly echoed my thoughts at the time. A while later you changed stance completely and implied that the rest of us here were blind sheep unable to see truth when presented ?

[frandoch]

Hi Louise,

Chris is an expert in his field, and is more than capable, I'm sure, of holding a deep philosophical discussion with other people who have a similar level of knowledge - but, like many experts, he ain't no teacher.

As a teacher, you have to start from where people are - build a bridge, from what they know to the new knowledge, but this necessarily means that you oversimplify, distort, even teach something which is wrong, but which does give them a handle to grasp the basics. Once they've got that, then we go to the next stage, adjusting, refining, replacing.

But to experts, that is horrific. They want all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed.

An example. When I was teaching kids about the structure of an atom, I used the analogy of the Solar System. You'll have seen it in most popular science explanations. We compare the atom to the Solar System, and explain that just as there is a central Sun, surrounded by orbitting planets , so in the atom, there is a central nucleus, surrounded by orbitting electrons. It's something they can grasp - it's new knowledge, but based on what they already know. But, in fact, the atom ain't like that. There are no solid bits to do the orbitting. But there is no way to explain to kids at their level of understanding, the particular solutions of a second degree, non-linear, differential equation, even in one dimension, if you see what I mean.http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smile.gif

Back to Chris. He reminds me of the archetypal Englishman giving directions to a foreigner. The foreigner asks for directions, perhaps in faltering English. The Englishman explains. The foreigner doesn't understand, so the Englishman repeats the directions word for word, but much louder. This continues until he's shouting the directions, and then he finally gives up, rolls his eyes, and stomps off, muttering: 'Bloody foreigners - why can't they learn to speak English?'

(Not that Chris shouts, of course)

I'd love to take up your challenge, but alas, I am very busy at the moment, what with my 'rubbish' interpretation of the I Ching http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif, and on another forum, I was challenged to explain 'Quantum Theory' to people who have no background in maths or physics. I'm enjoying that one.

And Chris, please accept my apologies for my 'Does he take sugar' answer to Louise, no offence intended.

Michael F.

[louise]

Hi Frandoch, I used to be a teacher too and agree with you totally " as a teacher you have to start from where people are - build a bridge.." So yes Chris is an 'expert' but no teacher...so, in effect, I am calling on a teacher to translate his message to the forum....but you are too busy, thats a shame, ah well....

[louise]

BTW I was interested in what you said about getting messages at 3am about writing the book and how you coped with losing everything in life..
am in similar position myself right now...so your story was quite encouraging.

[dharma]

Luis,
I was indeed joking with you and you needn't feel insulted in any way by the comparsion I made of you to C.C. I think he is a fine-looking man, as far as photographs go -still images lie and in that sense are untruths. The fullness of a person simply cannot be captured by slices of moments. The inner essence of a person, that is expressed and animated from the sharing of ideas and outer actions, is what fills in all of a person's colors. So far, you're looking p-r-e-t-t-y good to me! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

Also, I want to point out that I do not take the world of sorcery lightly nor do I consider it nonsense hocus-pocus and I therefore need to point out lest I be misunderstood, that I have *tremendous* respect. But alas, as an arm-chair 'sorceror' myself, I am merely a pitiful example of one. Certainly no match for someone who grew up in an environment where magic and the spirit world was validated and accepted as par for the course.


Frandoch,
perhaps I disagree a tiny bit with your assessment of Chris' ability to teach. Instead of a teacher I may be more inclined to classify him in the ranks of a professor. The term 'teacher' per se, is generally used to describe one who instructs in the grade school levels, whereas professors tend to impart knowledge at higher levels of learning. Each 'spoon-feeds' in a manner commensurate to the level they are educating.


Louise,
you are correct. Two years ago I did 'ask' Chris to change his tactics. As to the reason of why I wasn't polite about it initially and why I changed my mind a year later, well we need to keep things in proper context or there is no rhyme or reason to my 'madness'. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

My initial interactions with Chris were based on what I considered rudeness on his part. Later, I listened more closely and made a concerted effort to really *hear* what he was trying to say. As a result, I changed my mind, which IS my perrogative to do, I believe.

Finally, while I was engaged in a dialogue with him, XXX (who will remain nameless lest I cause the dung to hit the fan once again) chose to rudely interrupt our discussion so that XXX could oust him from the forum. What irked me most was that not one person came forward to 'help' the situation from deteriorating.

In fact, I DO recall that you in fact made a comment in favor of what XXX was doing. Hmm... now if I gave the impression that I thought the lot of you were behaving as sheep, well then, it was because that was precisely the way it appeared to me.

And that Louise, is my story, and I'm sticking to it. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smile.gif

with http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/heart.gif Dharma

[frandoch]

OOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW

Nice one Dharma.

Frandoch gently inserted into his rightful place in the educational hierarchy.

And done with such gracious style, and applomb, as one would expect from a lady.

I bow to you..http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

and with http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/heart.gif returned.

[gene]

I personally liked the Dilbert cartoon for itself. Not to relate it to anyone, but I have always liked Dilbert, and this cartoon reflects the best of the type of material Dilbert offers.

I was once in a writing class. We had to write a clear and concise email about a given topic. On mine, half the class said it was very clear, followed point to point, and made perfect sense. The other half of the class said they couldn't figure heads or tails of it, had no idea what I was asking for, etc. Juat the way life is.

Gene

[louise]

Well thanks for the explanation Dharma....

looks like there will remain a shroud of silence here over anyone actually saying what they take Chris's message to be - and I remain skeptical that anyone actually knows. Whats the point of being a brilliant professor if you can't communicate your ideas to a living soul ?

[louise]

At least I tried to translate what it meant to me, doesn't look like anyone else is even going to bother.....No ones corrected me, so I assume my interpretation must be kind of okay

[hilary]

Chris? Are you out there? (I hope?)

Louise, thanks for your attempt at interpretation. You're definitely, definitely braver than I am. Chris does have a list of his own at yahoogroups, where I'm sure some of the members must have learned to speak the language. You could try looking there for bridge-builders.

[chrislofting]

Hi Hilary,

Everything is fine.

I am still 'out' here. ;-)

Chris.

[sparhawk]

Dharma:

Insulted? No way!! Besides knowing what a joke looks like, I felt somewhat honored that you found that I look a bit like C.C., even he was butt ugly... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

The inner essence of a person, that is expressed and animated from the sharing of ideas and outer actions, is what fills in all of a person's colors. So far, you're looking p-r-e-t-t-y good to me!<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wholeheartedly agree with the first sentence. Regarding the second, geeze Dharma!, my ego cannot take that kind of energy boost on a peaceful Sunday morning... Now I must confess my vanity away with the Padre at the church... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/blush.gif

On the other subject matter, ahem, I do not consider myself more of an arm-chair sorcerer than you are. Not even close. What I tried to convey is that I, and I believe is also part of our general cultural background, feel completely at ease in a conversation where other people mention spirits and entities not of our plane of existence like they were talking about a regular day at work. In that regard, I do not consider to have any advantage whatsoever over your own experiences. But yes, I can say that I grew up in an environment where magic and the spirit world was not only accepted but also validated. Therefore, honestly, I have no merit on any of that.

If you've ever read Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Isabel Allende, to name only two of the most popular "Magic Realism" writers, you'll know what I'm talking about.

In my particular case, be it at home, where my wife is more attuned to the spirit world, or at any other activity, I am always trying to communicate or at least perceive that parallel world.

Did I make any sense? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/clown.gif

Louise, I will not take up your challenge. The one and only neuron I have left is not up to par with Chris' theories. Maybe if I had two... Hmmm, no, my latent ADHD would kick in in about two paragraphs... I tried, believe me, but back then I had about half a brain left. Look in what estate I am now... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Cheers,

Luis

[sparhawk]

Chris, jokes appart, I must say that I admire the thought, effort and energy you put on your theories. I can envision a future, not too distant, where your work will be quoted along with some of the most popular Yi authors and commentators. I know yours is a work in progress, but you should really try to put all that in book format and have it published. Websites are great communicators but not the place digest such an amount of information and complicated at that.

Think about it.

As a corollary to the above, I must say that after all these years of reading you (I know I keep a very low profile and you may not know me or of me, but I've certainly been reading you), you seem to have matured quite a bit in this electronic environment, a place where you see words but not hearts or faces. I do remember a time where you had a much, much shorter fuse and little patience. Certainly, this alone is something to learn from.

Cheers,

Luis

[dharma]

Luis,you asked: "Did I make any sense? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/clown.gif "

I believe you did!
Afterall,
Great minds think alike!! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/proud.gif

But then again... doh! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/paperbag.gif
Fools http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zzz.gif seldom differ

Hell, on second thought,
We MUST be on the same page... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

Dharma

[chrislofting]

luis,

thanks for the comments. there are still a lot of 'loose ends' that need to be delt with. That said I did approach RKP in 1987 but they said it was too technical for their readers.

I referred the material on the old ddiamond website to shambala - they said 'not interested'. I think both attempts were 'premature'.

I have been out of work for a long time now (being a 'specialist' in IT is not a place to be!) and so as I seek work I also rewrite, rephrase, etc etc but I have had enough feedback from people to 'suggest' I am on to something 'useful' - even though it could 'upset' some belief systems along the way.

Chris.

[candid]

Dharma,

There is no need to use aliases such as, Billy Bob or XXX. If you wish to dwell in the past, that's fine by me. I have no intentions of getting caught up in bitter debates with you, even if you use my correct handle. I'd invite you to work out our differences in private IM so as not to infect others here, but I've learned that isn't your style.

I wasn't against Chris, nor have I ever had eviction rights on this site. I didn't object to what he said, but the way in which he condescended to everyone else here, IE: "its time to grow up," etc. These comments created bad feelings, not just in me but in several others here as well. That's why no one piped up to shut me down when I finally flamed him. And Dharma, this is a public forum. Anytime someone posts something here, its assumed that anyone else may comment on it. You may think you were having a private conversation with him, but it was quite open for others to comment on. If you wish a private conversation, there are certainly the means to indulge yourself in that way. There were also personal comments from Chris to me, or did you miss that?

Actually, since Chris has returned I've detected no such condescension from him whatsoever. I agree, he does seem to have matured. Most of what he speaks of still doesn't reach me, but I have been getting a glimpse of his meaning.

Pardon, Chris, if I use my own common speak to explain to Louise what I'm getting from your teachings here: Dualistic opportunities present themselves with each hexagram. There is a passive and a pro-active, a firm and flexible opportunity in each circumstance. These dualisms take shape in our mind through the rich symbolism provided in the I Ching, allowing us to formulate an applicable meaning to our question. Our species demonstrates an instinctive gullibility to symbolic suggestions as a way of surviving through endless conflicts and decisions, and every hexagram contains within it those symbols, from which we draw out our application. (The complex mathematical parallels show the web of connections from one hex. to every other hex.) These stimulators create a bonding with our applicable reasoning, which then provides the answer we are looking for to our question and circumstance.

I'm not saying the above is what Chris is actually teaching, but its what I'm gleaning from his ideas. I can see how it might be true, but personal experience can not explain away Yi's sometimes uncanny relevance to my questions. But that may just be my own human gullibility. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Candid