Differences of 40 and 59?

[bruce]

Would any of you care to share how you view the essential difference(s) between 40 and 59?

[bradford_h]

I'll bite-
Both represent change into altered states.
40 is change into a simpler, less entangled, more forgiving state. But still in the same reality.
59 is change into a more rarified state, as solid to liquid, or liquid to gas. The realities themselves change. "I came like water, like wind I go".

[bruce]

lol Brad, it wasn't a trick question, honest!

What you say makes sense to me. The reason I asked is that they seem to have more in common than they have differences, or the difference seems quite subtle. Both have the lower trigram of water, with 40 having thunder above, verses 59's wind. Might it also then be the time it takes to make the transition? Thunder seems to be an all-at-once release, whereas 59 seems to be a gradual release.

Thanks for your input.

[lightofdarkness]

The water octet, in the binary sequence is made-up of four pairs:

07,04 29,59 40,64 47,06

These pairs in turn form into quartets that then form the octet.

Analysis of the octet binary sequence gives us hexagrams that are unconditional (07,29,40,47) vs those that are conditional (04,59,64,06)

From here we see 59 as conditional, 40 as unconditional.

The interpretation of this sequence is possible through 'opposites' analysis, where reflection of the eight mimics reflection of the 64 in the full sequence such that we can form pairs in the octet of:

07, 06 (e.g. army as potential vs agent of compromise)
04, 47 (e.g. masking as potential (and so an enclosure) vs its exaggerated form - acceptable or not)
29, 64 (e.g. tight containment/control vs slack (or too tight, too aware and so errors) - the 40,64 pair covers issues of 'slackness' etc))
59, 40

In 59,40 the dispelling of illusions, the lifting of the fog is conditional and so over time. This is compared to the 'sudden' lifting of illusions through unconditional tension release (relaxation of structure).

What is most common to 59,40 I think is described by analogy to:

010011 (59)
010100 (40)
------ EQU/COIN operator
111000 - 11, harmonising/balancing

The skeletal form of 59 is

100001
010011
-------
110010 - 60 where we use limitations to set down standards (and so seed the 'lifting of fog', the confusion caused by too many 'differences' or lack of 'clarity')

The skeletal form of 40 is

100001
010100
------
110101 - 38 where we use mirroring, mimicy to reduce tensions of opposites. ('they' see themselves in the mirror you have put up and so tension is resolved)

Note the same common ground:

110010 (60)
110101 (38)
------ EQU/COIN operator
111000 - 11 harmonising/balancing

Chris.

[lightofdarkness]

BTW - from an emotional perspective, both are rooted in the emotional issues of rejection/rejecting - 40 covers a composite of surprise operating within the rejection (and so the sense of sudden) whereas 59 covers a composite of anticipation operating with the rejection/rejecting (and so the time factor).

in five-phase we have a context of consumption (internal distribution and so issues of what we accept/reject) in which is operating the 'original' ideas of production (40) vs the re-manufacturing of 'raw' materials (59) - IOW both of the top trigrams cover the realm of WOOD here operating in the realm of WATER.

In personalities we have a context focused on protection (security seekers) within which is operating (a) supervisors (59) and (b) engineers (problem solvers) (40)

Chris.

[bruce]

Chris,

Usted sabe que yo no hablo los n?meros, pero gracias para afirmar mis ideas. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bruce]

But I do get what you're saying about supervisor and engineers. That does clarify the picture for me. Thanks.

[peace]

Chris:

When you say water octet - I get there are 8 of them.

What is the theme - like what do you say to yourself during the reading?

Thanks,
Rosalie

[martin]

40 and 59 as different ways of solving a problem, a dilemma, a conflict, a deadlock, an impasse ...

40
Use a sharp tool, physical or mental. Cut, split, divide, distinguish, seperate, chose. It may mean seperating yourself from a problematic situation or condition. Walk away, the door is open.
40 is the opposite of 57.6 in which the querent loses the axe with which he executes his decisions. If 40 represents a choice it may not matter that much what you choose. It's more important to do it fast, get it behind you and get on with your life. Throw a coin!
40 is dualistic, divide and conquer, the truth of either-this-or-that will set you free. Once you can clearly distingush the thesis from the antithesis you are already halfway.

Atomic reactor 40 uses fission (splitting).


59
If 40 represents the law of 2 or the way of two-ness, then 59 represents the law of 3 and the way of synthesis or of the illusive third factor in the triad of Gurdjieff. The third doesn't exist in the same plane as the plane in which the problem exists. It exists on a subtler or "higher" level. As Brad said "59 is change into a more rarified state, as solid to liquid, or liquid to gas."
The risk here is perhaps that you go for a compromise instead of a true synthesis. A compromise exists on the same level as the opposites and takes something away from (weakens) both, while a synthesis on a subtler level adds something (strengthens) both. Synergy.
In a compromise both lose, in a synthesis both win.
Like 40, 59 may involve seperating yourself from a problematic situation/condition, but while 40 is more like "walk away", 59 is more like "let it go".
And while 40 corresponds to either-this-or-that 59 corresponds to neti-neti, neither-this-nor-that. At least initially. Later, the neti-neti may give birth to the third, a subtler this-and-that.

Atomic reactor 59 uses fusion.

Of course, there is much more to say ... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce]

Well, please, say it! Good stuff, Martin.

I'm assuming that this third in 59 is what's commonly referred to as "spiritual". What then is the temple which the kings of old build? I've always likened it to faith or belief beyond the physical or manifest, but I'm curious if you have another symbolic meaning for it.

Thank you.

[matt]

Very nicely said Martin, I enjoyed reading that. Ive always viewed the 'temple' as a higher vibratory offshoot of the 'capital' in the I Ching. The capital being the mind/body/soul in its state of normality, and the temple being the mind/body/soul in a state of higher awareness. Much like the harnessing of a dream or wish, we visualise a state of consciousness which we wish to attain (a more spirtual essence). And for this to happen, just as Martin said, we have to 'let go' (presenting tending towards the supreme). When we let go of doubts, fears or false illusions, the universal winds will carry them away, then we become more of who we are meant to be.

[lightofdarkness]

Rosalie:

There are eight octets that make up the binary sequence. I have here compressed that sequence to bring out the octets and the four pairs in each:

02,23 08,20 16,35 45,12 (Earth octet)
15,52 39,53 62,56 31,33 (Mountain octet)
07,04 29,59 40,64 47,06 (Water octet)
46,18 48,57 32,50 28,44 (Wind octet)
24,27 03,42 51,21 17,51 (Thunder octet)
36,22 63,37 55,30 49,13 (Fire octet)
19,41 60,61 54,38 58,10 (Lake octet)
11,26 05,09 34,14 43,01 (Heaven octet)

The hexagrams in each octet relate to a general context set by the bottom trigram. For the associated qualities covered in ICPlus see the below trigram links:

heaven http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t1.html
lake http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t2.html
fire http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t3.html
thunder http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t4.html
lake http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t5.html
water http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t6.html
mountain http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t7.html
earth http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t8.html

[lightofdarkness]

note that t5 is Wind not Lake (lake is t2 as given)

[peace]

Thanks Chris.
This is really helpful.

Rosalie

[rosada]

There was some sort of tension here at home. I consulted the IC
and got 59. Just then friends arrived, the whole mood shifted and now I don't even remember what the issue was about. This seems to confirm Martins idea of 59 meaning "Let it go." Also, as 59 is Dispersion it maybe that having new folks in the room caused the focus to Disperse and the problem to dissolve.

[bruce]

Good example, Rosada.

But it also sounds like the guest brought deliverance, as in 40. That's the vagueness that initiated my question. Most similarities in hexagrams are easily outweighed by their differences. I've never found this distinction to be as clear between 40 and 59.

Both liberate, and dissolve borders. Both makes things light and easy to carry. They're different, but as far as I still could tell, only subtly, unless there's something I'm still missing.

[bruce]

Gentle and gradual verses decisive and sudden, that?s the only difference I see. Wind/Yin/eldest-daughter over water verses Thunder/Yang/eldest-son over water.

[lightofdarkness]

If you want high precision detail then compare their spectrums - summarised in the line positions section in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/IChingPlus/x110010.html (59)

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/IChingPlus/x001010.html (40)

As given before, compare their skeletal forms by XORing with hex 27 (100001) to give analogies describing those forms:

010011 (59)
100001 (27)
------
110010 (60) (e.g. 60 covers in detail imposing of standards, and so limits, to ensure understanding and that seeds the meaning of 59 (as 59 seeds the meaning of 60))

010100 (40)
100001 (27)
-----------
110101 (38)

Or compare their '24-ness':

010011 (59)
100000 (24)
------
110011 (61)

VS

010100 (59)
100000 (24)
------
110100 (54)

There are 64 of these to compare and so elicit the differences.

Chris.

[martin]

Perhaps 40 is more yang than 59 or more "male" in the traditional sense: thunder versus wind, oldest son versus oldest daughter. And in the binary sequence thunder is more yang than wind.
Or more representative of how younger people tend to solve problems (young wood vs old wood)?

I don't think, btw, that 59 always refers to a process that we would call spiritual.
Sometimes an apparently difficult problem (mathematical, psychological, existential or otherwise http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif) turns out to be relatively easy after a good night's sleep. When we let it go, unfocus, relax, forget it for while (typically the way of 59) we may find a solution that a more direct approach (like 40 for example) couldn't uncover.
Is this "spiritual"? The usual psychological explanation is that the unconcious mind has worked on the problem while we relaxed. But some would perhaps attribute the solution to divine inspiration or helpful spirit guides. So it depends on who you ask.
The same is true for the dialectical movement (59?) in history (thesis, antithesis, synthesis). Ask Hegel, ask Marx. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce]

Thanks, Chris, but I'm not looking for high precision detail, just some common sense. Think I've figured this one out, be it ever so simplistic.

Martin, yes, I've already stated the difference as thunder/yang/son vs. wind/yin/daughter. And by spiritual I also meant unseen psychological influences, IE: Sun.

Thanks, both.

[bruce]

Sorry if that sounded a bit short, guys. I do appreciate your input, always.

[martin]

Same for your input. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
And that post was a good example of 40!

[martin]

I suppose that my subconscious is still working on your question about the temple, btw.
Not much has surfaced yet, but having a chat with your ancestors (in the temple), is that not a bit like communicating with your subconcious, with the deeper, older layers of the mind, the archetypes?

[frank]

Hi folks,

By reading your answers on Bruce question I was wandering if a difference between 40 and 59, and a connection in one as well would be about the fact that in 40 there are knots to unty... and in 59 you disolve, as in 40 you are with both feet on the ground in practice... Eartly things so to speak, an earthly temple... as in 59 it is about thoughts... heavenly disolving... a temple in heaven... Just a thought but I ty a knot now and let it go :-D...

Frank

[bruce]

Martin, yes, I think it is like that. And trying to bite down on it only clanks the teeth together. ouch! Building temples also sounds like building a myth or a legacy, something which extends beyond the mechanical clock of time, or the all-too-real-looking mundane-ness of life. Deeply religious symbols and ceremonies do accomplish this, if the heart and imagination are engaged. From sweat lodges to high Catholic mass, the devoted dissolve their being, becoming undone, so to speak.

[bruce]

Good thought, Frank. Problem I have with it is that thunder/dragon is not an earthly symbol, even when it is on or below the earth. But it is an interesting thought, in that the change of 40 does appear to be more grounded, as if by reason rather than by faith.

[bruce]

Frank, can you say more about "the fact that in 40 there are knots to unity"? What are these knots?

[frank]

Hi Bruce, and others...

As answer to your first post, that the thunder / dragon is not an eartly symbol... Well, it is actually!!! Thunder is NOT the thunder in the sky, it's the thunder in the ground... Why would there be a YANG line on the first line in that particular trigram... It's an earthquake! Not thunder and lightning in the sky, but the dragon that roars the earthy grounds... Perhaps in 40 it is about an earthquake and dikes that break and the eartly forces break through... Aha... wait a moment... Water and Thunder... Lava??? that stuff coming out of vulcano's... Dragon's mouths... the crater of a vulcano... Mmm...I let it go again :-D
(nuclear hexagram is 63... water and fire... hellooo :-D)

Then again... the texts dose not say anything about this wonder of nature... it's just a picture of a temple on a vulcano?

And for your second remark, which knots are there to unty... I don't know where, but it is somewhere in the (perhaps dutch :-() I Ching literature...

Still that temple tough... damn :-D...

Hope it helps,

Huggie,
Frank

[frank]

OK I found the knot...

In a dutch I Ching book (and I almost am certain this is not the one I have found it in, but a good thing that it's written here as well :-D...), there is a comment on the Chinese character of Hsieh...hexagram 40... The left partical is a horn right an ox... the two upper particals mean to unty, separate, divide, UNTY KNOTS... with a horn of an ox...

Huggie again,
Frank

[bruce]

Oh, untie. I misread read it as unite. Yes, sailors use a Bolin tool (if I remember correctly?) to untie knots with, and it is in the shape of a small horn. Interesting.

Thanks.

[bruce]

On dragons, if we're speaking of oriental rather than medieval dragons, it is still yang, even when in the earth or lake. Thunder/lightening/dragon either represents heaven or the first son of heaven (representative). There are false earthly dragons, however, such as in 2.6.

[bruce]

Correction: the sailor's knot tool is called a Marlin Spike, which I'm guessing refers to the marlin's bill. Not completely unlike a horn, huh?

[martin]

A snake that turns out to be a rope, the dispelling of illusions, is that also 59? Think so ...
40 does indeed seem to be more down to earth. Perhaps so much that the idea that the rope could be a snake doesn't even enter ones mind.
One sees only the rope. And the knot in the rope. And unties it. Very practical!

[bruce]

Dispelling illusions, yes. It works in both directions. But doesn't 40 do that as well? (lol, this is where my question arose.) So far, for me, the nature of the effecting force is what separates the two, and unties the knot. That sounds reasonable and disperses my question. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bradford_h]

When the Yi was written knots were more common in daily life. People used to carry around a little antler tip on their waistbands, called a knot horn, to set things free. Hence the horn radical in the character for "liberate". LiSe explains this on her website.

[martin]

Well, if I meet the madonna and I am in a 40 mood I will probably pinch her (or myself). Or try to analyze her to pieces. Destroy her somehow. Or at least undress her ... unveil her.
But in a 59 mood ... I think I will take her hand and let her guide me to the inner temple. I will not try to unveil her, I will leave the mystery intact and go along with it. And that is because her appearance as the madonna might be an illusion, but her essence is perhaps real.

In the end the outcome is the same, the madonna is recognized as an illusion and disappears. But the reality that remains is different.

Does this recoil your snake? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bruce]

Martin, yes, it does. I have no interest in virgins, or female rock legends. Now, Kuan Yin is another matter. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Brad, don't know how I missed that in LiSe's site, though she only indirectly refers to the marlin spike or horn as a means of removing knots. Her primary reference, as you know, is to "remove the horns", which I interpret as losing ones defense mechanism. Interesting about their common use on belts.

[lightofdarkness]

40 pairs as an opposite with 37 and they both focus on the 'coin' of tension release. 40 does it by relaxation of structure, 37 does it by ensuring rigid structure.

The local PAIR (adjacent hexes derived from the same 5 lines in the binary sequence) of 40,64 cover issues of relaxation of structure, either suddenly (unconditionally) - 40 - or over some sequence ( and so mis-sequencing is a property of 64 - the relaxed crossing of water can get one's tail wet)

The local PAIR of 37,63 covers issues of maintaining rigid structure - expressed in 63 as 'correct sequence' and in 37 in the form of a 'correct' structure - as in any collective (family/clan etc where all are in their 'right' places)

OTOH 59 covers the lifting of the fog, and so the dispelling of illusions, and complements 55 where the focus is on a threat of being 'fogged' in the form of abundance/diversity - as there are many riches so there are many thieves to take them.

59 as such then covers lifting the fog through bringing forth something particular whereas with 55 there is a potential bringing-forth of many particulars (diversity) and so a need for awareness.

59 pairs locally in the binary aequence with 29. 29 covers issues of containment/control unconditionally, 59 does it conditionally (a particular that dispels "illusions")

55 pairs locally in the binary sequence with 30. 30 covers issues of guidance/direction-setting (an ideology etc) and as such is conditional. 55 covers the unconditional aspects (many possible ideologies etc)

I have not gone into the spectral analysis - the above is just from using the binary sequence to analyse the relationships without applying recursion to each hexagram (the spectral dynamic and XOR)

Chris.

[lightofdarkness]

to make the point re 59/55, the manner of dispelling/dispersing covers tension issues but not in the same form of 40/37 (in 55 the diverity/abundance is a THREAT to happen, the container is not yet 'broken' to release its content. the binary order around 55 is 63,37,55,30 where the middle of the octet 'cuts' 37,55 and so is a reflection point of 37 and 55 being some form of 'opposite' - which they are in that both cover issues of rigid structuring - a theme linked to the nature of fire as a container of 'something', a boundary that moves outwards (thye family/ideology "grows"), as compared to water that is a boundary that works inwards (keep things in/out - the boundary protects)

Fire-based hexagrams have a focus on issues of an expanding boundary and so an aire of exploitation (emotionally it covers issues of acceptance/accepting).

Water-based hexagrams have a focus on issues of a still or contracting boundary and so an aire of protection. (emotionally it covers issues of rejection/rejecting)

if we order things as:

29,59,40,64 .... 63,37,55,29 this gives us 'opposites'. But we can also slide the left over the right to give us:

29,59,40,64 (yin path)
63,37,55,29 (yang path)

This gives us variations on a theme (only difference is the bottom line in each column of hexs) and here 40 pairs with 55. In this pairing so 40 lets out the content of the container, 55 keeps it in (and starts to threaten release)

OTOH 59 pairs with 37 and so covers the maintaining of structure through different methods.

Chris.

[lightofdarkness]

oops - I may have introduced some confusion re the 'variations on a theme' concept so let me flesh it out.

In the FULL binary sequence I can 'slide' all of the yin-based hexagrams sequence 'over' the yang-based hexagrams sequence to give a 'variations on a theme' form of interpretation where the only difference is the bottom line of the hexagram pairs we can make up (and so 02/24, 23/27 etc)

As shown before, due to the self-referencing involved in the IC so when we extract octets (four yin octets and four yang octets) the SAME METHODOLOGY is applicable in analysis.

In the 'big picture' if I slide water-based hexagrams over the yang side they map to lake-based hexagrams. BUT I can also take opposite octets and do the same thing. In this case water is mapped to fire. So we have, AS OPPOSITES (column pairs):

07,04,29,59,40,64,47,06
13,49,30,55,37,63,22,36

If we then introduce the variations on a theme we have (column pairs):

07,04,29,59,40,64,47,06
36,22,63,37,55,30,49,13

IOW methodologies applicable to the WHOLE binary sequence are applicable to the OCTETS that make up that sequence (the self-referencing due to recursion means the octets are 'micro' binary sequences)

Chris.

[rosada]

40. Forgive
59. Forget