Let's talk about 4.1

[exnihilo]

I don't understand it. Wilhelm has,

To make a fool develop
It furthers one to apply discipline.
The fetters should be removed.
To go on in this way brings humiliation

From this and his commentary I'm getting that a little discipline is good but too much is bad. Agree? I'm not sure because Karcher has,

Shooting forth, enveloping
Advantageous to avail of punishing people
Avail of loosening the fettering shackles
Using going:distress

Harvesting: availing of punishing people
Use correcting the laws indeed

I sometimes have trouble understanding Karcher.

Bradford has:

Delivering the inexperienced
It is worthwhile and useful to discipline another
If practiced to remove the shackles and cuffs
But for this to continue is a disgrace

This seems a bit clearer. Bradford, are you saying that discipline is good for the inexperienced but it's also good to relax the discipline as the inexperienced gain experience? Sort of like taking the training wheels off of a bike maybe? I don't understand the last line though. For what to continue is a disgrace?

[bradford_h]

Exnihilo
You had it right with the training wheels analogy.
The disgrace would be to make the child leave them on while riding to high school. Discipline for its own sake, or for the parents, is wrong. The point is liberation from the unnecessary (Zhi Gua Decrease).

[ewald]

I find this one of the harder lines to translate. Though I like Bradford's translation, my current one has a slightly different take:
<blockquote>To develop the ignorant,
it is beneficial to apply punishment to people,
but one needs to be relaxed.
Handcuffs and fetters in order to proceed,
are inadequate.</blockquote>

[exnihilo]

I see it as something like...discipline is for the good of the person who needs it and not because it's fun to discipline others. This isn't about sadism it's about caring.

[jesed]

Just in case the comment could be useful

"When a father helps his 3-years-old son to walk, everybody smile;
When the father still helps his 40-years-old son, everybody cry."

At the begining of your self-development (line 1), you may need a "Master" to guide/discipline you; but if later (line 6) you still need it, instead of achieve self-discipline, is a shame.

Best wishes

[peace]

Gee - sounds like Exnihlio and I are going through a similar thought process.
I hate discipline too! But, I'm a big girl now and can do things myself!

(Making fun of me,not you).

[lightofdarkness]

ICPlus 4.1

Line 1
"Education requires self-discipline. This needs to be shown at the beginning. Once understood, there is no longer any need to keep enforcing it [avoid excess] since this can lead to dangers."

[ewald]

I've been staring at the Chinese of this line for a while.

I felt that it didn't quite make sense to have the character Ren (for person, people) at the end of the sentence about the punishment, as it seems redundant there. So I moved it to the start of the next sentence.
That meant reconsidering of the character Shuo, which elsewhere in the Yi is usually translated with loose. In 33.2 it is used implying freedom, so I think it can be translated similarly here.
Since both the characters Zhi and Gu in the last sentence can be translated with fetters, manacles, shackles, cuffs and handcuffs, it doesn't make sense to me to translate one with fetters and the other with manacles or so. The first of the two however seems more likely to be used as a verb.

So I changed my translation of 4.1 to:
<blockquote>To develop the ignorant,
it is beneficial to make use of punishment,
but people need to be free.
Restraining with shackles in order to proceed,
is inadequate.</blockquote>