I Ching and chines clock and meridians

[frank_r]

Hallo Toganm,

Your question:
"Frank, could you please reference where you find that hex. 54 is kidneys according to the Chinese clock of acupuncture."


There are two cycles where you can put the chinese clock on . The first more fysical cycle of the moon. Hexagram 24- 14-19-11-34-43-1-44-33-12-20-23 and 2. There are some book where the have this connection like the I Ching of Hua Ching Ni. Starting with Gb- Liv- lu-Li- St- Sp-Ha-Si-Bl-Ki-Pe and 3W.

And the second one is the cycle of the nuclaer hexagrams. With starting Gb etc. 27-23-39-53-37-44-28-43-38-54-40-and 24.

I will try to get a picture in, hopefully i manage I'm not such a computer miracle.

Why trigram earth is kidney I tell you next time

Best Wishes Frank R

[toganm]

Hello Frank,



There are two cycles where you can put the chinese clock on . The first more fysical cycle of the moon. Hexagram 24- 14-19-11-34-43-1-44-33-12-20-23 and 2. There are some book where the have this connection like the I Ching of Hua Ching Ni. Starting with Gb- Liv- lu-Li- St- Sp-Ha-Si-Bl-Ki-Pe and 3W.


Interesting, though the chinese clock is based on watch times (watching the sun not the moon) and traditonally going back to Su Wen (Yellow Emperor's Internal Canon of Medicine: Simple Questions) the circle which is called the Wei (Defensive) Cycle starts with Lung. That is one of the reasons why Qigong Tai Chi Chuan and meditation is done somewhere between 3-5 am to get the Heavenly Qi (Da Qi) into the lungs and the body.

The order you have provided, as far as I know, is used for the Microcosmic orbit meditation which is unification of the Du and Ren meridians (Governing and Conception) in one direction and I have never seen that to be used for chinese clock.

I have not read or learned that the chinese clock is based on the moon. One of the Chinese calendar is based on the lunar cycle but not the clock. I wonder where Hua Ching Ni finds that.


And the second one is the cycle of the nuclaer hexagrams. With starting Gb etc. 27-23-39-53-37-44-28-43-38-54-40-and 24.


I will get back to this one next time. I want have a deeper look before I reply.


Why trigram earth is kidney I tell you next time

Please do as to my knowledge Heaven and Earth are not related to any of the organs or rather to say officials in Chinese medicine which is closely related to Yi Jing.

Best Wishes
Togan

[frank_r]

Hello Frank,



Interesting, though the chinese clock is based on watch times (watching the sun not the moon) and traditonally going back to Su Wen (Yellow Emperor's Internal Canon of Medicine: Simple Questions) the circle which is called the Wei (Defensive) Cycle starts with Lung. That is one of the reasons why Qigong Tai Chi Chuan and meditation is done somewhere between 3-5 am to get the Heavenly Qi (Da Qi) into the lungs and the body.Togan

This order we studied in school when we studied the basis of the stems and branches, Hua Ching Ni called it the lunar and solar energies in a yearly cycle. 24 is more like the first light, the first yang of the day. And 11 is more the first cry of the baby, starting of life where the energy of the father(Trigram heaven ) and the mother(earth) are in perfect contact.Maybe you know david twicken we wrote already some articles about this relation ship between this cycle and the clock.


your question: "The order you have provided, as far as I know, is used for the Microcosmic orbit meditation which is unification of the Du and Ren meridians (Governing and Conception) in one direction and I have never seen that to be used for chinese clock".

I know the 8 extra meridians only as trigrams, the classic ones given by Xu Feng in 1439.

Your question: "

Please do as to my knowledge Heaven and Earth are not related to any of the organs or rather to say officials in Chinese medicine which is closely related to Yi Jing.:

One of the cycles of the stems and branches are:You can put the meridians in two ways first in the Fu shi sequence, then they form the elements. The 2 diagrams of Fu Shi sequence where the trigrams are in order.

The king Wen sequence is the known one, where kidney belongs to water.(see the third diagram)

So the kidney belong in the fu shi sequence to earth(same as liver, who is starting the cycle. But at the same time kidney belongs to element of water which has it's expression in trigram water. (and where bladder also belongs).
yes it's really hollistic thinking from those chinese, kidney at the same time hexagram 20, 54, trigram earth and element water.
Give it go, you will come to new insight and different aspects of the meridians.


Best Wishes Frank R

[toganm]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the update. I had read David Twicken's articles before, yet I will reread them along with my own notes. My understanding so far was the Pre heaven sequence can only be used for the 8 extra ordinary meridians as that the embryo has not turned into the fetus and once the fetus is there then the 12 meridians will be established linked with the officials that is when the post heaven sequence can be used.
In the pre heaven it is the chaos hence there is no five phases. In post heaven the chaos is over then the the phases are introduced hence one can use the trigrams in relationship to the officials and chinese medicine.

Having said that I will reread Twicken's articles along with my notes once again and post my understanding shortly.

Best wishes
Togan

[toganm]

One of the cycles of the stems and branches are:You can put the meridians in two ways first in the Fu shi sequence, then they form the elements. The 2 diagrams of Fu Shi sequence where the trigrams are in order.

The king Wen sequence is the known one, where kidney belongs to water.(see the third diagram)

So the kidney belong in the fu shi sequence to earth(same as liver, who is starting the cycle. But at the same time kidney belongs to element of water which has it's expression in trigram water. (and where bladder also belongs).



Sorry for the late reply, as I had other things to attend. Anyway here is what I came up with. I am using Fu Xi sequence in a different way to yours. The basis of my interpretation is Su Wen Chapter 68, 70 and 71 and Shang Han Lun. Since you said you studied (or studying) acupuncture you should be able to follow what I mean.

Fu Xi is pre heaven so it is in a way macrocosm. The major influence is the Heaven and Earth so it is the outside factors. They are the axis where everything is transformed. It is like a reference to Qi. Heaven is pure yang and Earth is pure Yin. Yet no organ is pure yin or pure yang so these two can not be related to any officials (organs). On the other hand there are two meridians which are not related to any officials, Du mai and Ren mai. So

Qian (Heaven)= Du mai
Kun (Earth) = Ren Mai

The other trigrams are as follows

Zhen (Thunder) = Shao Yang = Triple heater, Gall Bladder
Li (Fire) = Yang Ming = Large Intestine, Stomach
Dui (Lake) = Tai Yang =Small Intestine, Bladder

Gen (Mountain) =Tai Yin = Lung, Spleen
Kan (Water) = Shao Yin = Heart, Kidney
Xun (Wind) = Jue Yin= Pericardium, Liver

King Wen sequence on the other hand is the microsm where the man is the main factor. This is also where the five elements can be seen. The axis where everything is transformed in the King Wen Sequence is the Mountain and Earth as earth occupies the center. The other elements are pretty clear and follow the sheng cycle.

You can look to the Fu Xi Sequence as the stage of Qi and Shang Han Lun describes the stages of illness using the 6 divisions of Yin Yang. In other words if one follows the order from Yang to Yin the sequence is the same as the 6 stages of diseases from external influences.

Best Wishes

Togan

[frank_r]

Hello Togan,



Fu Xi is pre heaven so it is in a way macrocosm. The major influence is the Heaven and Earth so it is the outside factors. They are the axis where everything is transformed. It is like a reference to Qi. Heaven is pure yang and Earth is pure Yin. Yet no organ is pure yin or pure yang so these two can not be related to any officials (organs). On the other hand there are two meridians which are not related to any officials, Du mai and Ren mai.


Yes, I know this one to, I know it from an article written by Peter Eckman, but I don't use it in practicle sense. Do you? And if so how do you use the trigrams and the meridians?

For me Fu Shi is is pre heaven so everything is already there, but still in chaos and on the other hand in perfect order(the perfect paradox) The opposites express the perfect order. We people have 10 meridians already there in heaven. Only PE and 3W not they are the expression of time(PE) and space(3W). So when we are born there is coming time and space and then the King Wen sequence starts working but in the back the fu shi sequence is always working.

The 10 in heaven are the stems, and the 12 on earth are the branches and the divisions are the leaves.
So you can express each stage with a different trigram, I never did this with the leaves because I found it hard to place the trigrams and the divisions but maybe it is what you are saying that the leaves are not expresses as heaven or earth.

Best wishes Frank R

[ravenstar]

Wow! Thanks for directing me here Frank. Lots to absorb.

frank_r So the kidney belong in the fu shi sequence to earth(same as liver, who is starting the cycle. But at the same time kidney belongs to element of water which has it's expression in trigram water. (and where bladder also belongs).
yes it's really hollistic thinking from those chinese, kidney at the same time hexagram 20, 54, trigram earth and element water.


Now if I'm reading this right, then for example, Hexagram 48 has Kan, Water is on the top, and Wood on the bottom. Water is the Kidneys and Wood is the Liver. What of their opposites, Bladder and Gallbladder? The five elements have a pair of meridians each, one yin and one yang, except for Fire, which has two pairs.

If you were using Hexagram 48 in a 'healing question' which would take prescidence over the other? Or would both be in question? If this Hexagram was unchanging and the person asked "What do I need to be aware of regarding my health" how would you proceed?

I know we are not allowed to diagnose a illness but we can make people aware of the inner and outer influences and forces affecting their lives.

Could you show me how you would look at this?

ravenstar

Oh oh just reread what Frank wrote in Hexagram 48. It's not associated with the Kidneys. Now I'm totally confused??

[frank_r]

Now if I'm reading this right, then for example, Hexagram 48 has Kan, Water is on the top, and Wood on the bottom. Water is the Kidneys and Wood is the Liver. What of their opposites, Bladder and Gallbladder? The five elements have a pair of meridians each, one yin and one yang, except for Fire, which has two pairs.

ravenstar


There are different ways to use the trigrams and the body relations. When you look to the Fu Shi sequence you have different trigrams for the meridians than when you use the trigrams from the King Wen sequence.

looking to 48 there is water on top, looking to the King Wen sequence water is both kidney and bladder.
And wind on the bottum is both Galbladder, liver.

When you look to the Fu Shi sequence then water is the stomach and wind is lung.
In this way you can both use the trigram associations with the meridians.

If you were using Hexagram 48 in a 'healing question' which would take prescidence over the other? Or would both be in question? If this Hexagram was unchanging and the person asked "What do I need to be aware of regarding my health" how would you proceed?

I know we are not allowed to diagnose a illness but we can make people aware of the inner and outer influences and forces affecting their lives.

Could you show me how you would look at this?
??

Sometimes I use the Fu Shi associations with the meridians, sometimes the King wen associations. That happens intuitively. But mostly I use the Fu Shi associations more often(although they are less known) because only some of the trigrams have double associations

The hexagrams in the chinese clock are different associations.

Oh oh just reread what Frank wrote in Hexagram 48. It's not associated with the Kidneys. Now I'm totally confused??

And the associations with the chakra's are different again.

I know you can make this very complicated. there are many associations possible between the Yi and the body.

When I use the Yi when I work in my practice as a acupuncturist I use the King Wen en Fu Shi in a sort mix. I wrote an article about the connection between DNA, I Ching and acupuncture. There I use both King Wen and Fu Shi sequence. ( http://www.frankroosen.com/dna.pdf), this together with 8 Houses system that is in the back of the Wilhelm- Barness edition. And that is used for centuries concerning ilnesses.

Frank

[ravenstar]

There are different ways to use the trigrams and the body relations. When you look to the Fu Shi sequence you have different trigrams for the meridians than when you use the trigrams from the King Wen sequence.

looking to 48 there is water on top, looking to the King Wen sequence water is both kidney and bladder.
And wind on the bottum is both Galbladder, liver.

When you look to the Fu Shi sequence then water is the stomach and wind is lung.
In this way you can both use the trigram associations with the meridians.



Sometimes I use the Fu Shi associations with the meridians, sometimes the King wen associations. That happens intuitively. But mostly I use the Fu Shi associations more often(although they are less known) because only some of the trigrams have double associations

The hexagrams in the chinese clock are different associations.



And the associations with the chakra's are different again.

I know you can make this very complicated. there are many associations possible between the Yi and the body.

When I use the Yi when I work in my practice as a acupuncturist I use the King Wen en Fu Shi in a sort mix. I wrote an article about the connection between DNA, I Ching and acupuncture. There I use both King Wen and Fu Shi sequence. ( http://www.frankroosen.com/dna.pdf), this together with 8 Houses system that is in the back of the Wilhelm- Barness edition. And that is used for centuries concerning ilnesses.

Frank

Thanks Frank! Is this website yours? It's well written and easy to read. Like you, I feel the Fu Shi sequence is the one I'd use. Stomach and Lungs seem to fit with Hexagram 48 as well as the planets Mercury/Moon which I believe are associated with it.

Now how do I find the Fu Shi sequence in relation to health. Is there a book or a link to this site or another site that would help me understand more? And what of the Chakras?

I have used the Sabians in health issues. But obviously the Yi Jing or I Ching is a bit more complicated. I'm still quite a newbie with it all, and am looking forward to more input from you on this. I look forward to reading more of your posts as we explore the Hexagrams more.

With Great Regards,
ravenstar

[frank_r]

Now how do I find the Fu Shi sequence in relation to health. Is there a book or a link to this site or another site that would help me understand more? And what of the Chakras?

ravenstar

Hello ravenstar,

No there is no book that I'm aware of that describe this associations with the Fu Shi sequence. This is part of the so called stem and branches theorie in acupuncture. These associations are written in severall books but I don't know what the source is. And with this it is searching and playing with it.

What hexagrams are related to the chakra's is a different subject. I will come to that later, okee.

All the best Frank