Hexagram 44 [Archive] - I Ching Community

bradford_h

August 27th, 2005, 06:14 PM

The overall image of the gua is the kind of premature or unwanted dissipation or distraction provided by a random sexual encounter. It's avoiding entropy, as the king does in the image by repeating his commands. For me it's the 8 of Swords in Tarot. Fish are used in the Yi as symbols of the feminine gender (the palace ladies united in support in 23, and perhaps even piglets and fishes for sons and daughters in 61).
44.4 is a case where the avoidance of distraction, not having enough to do do with such encounters, has itself become the distraction. The Zhi Gua, 57, often suggests these self-reflexive problems that cause us to rethink our strategies when we bounce off the world instead of penetrating it.
We awaken to our unfortunate state (qi xiong) born out of our distancing others (yuan min, 44.4x).

void

August 27th, 2005, 07:23 PM

I've read that several times and I still don't get it Brad ? A while ago I asked about getting some money, I took it to mean there was none to be had - no fish - sure enough there was none - very depressing..but perhaps I missed the whole point if its about avoidance of distraction ??? Anyone got the patience to enlighten me ?

bradford_h

August 27th, 2005, 09:10 PM

Hi
Maybe what you were doing at the time was more pressing and more important to you than taking the steps necessary to get the money. If that was the case, it may have been suggesting that if it was money you wanted maybe that was where you should have been putting your focus. But if you considered making money a distraction from your higher purposes, then it was not the money's fault for not coming to you. The fish can be anything desired, or any distraction.
The Yi uses metaphors that have to be applicable to just about anything. In this case the sexual image of being at the mercy of a strong woman just happens to be a very powerful one for the author's purposes. It's just awfully anti-climatic when you need to turn around and apply such a fun answer to a question about chariot repair or your next paycheck.

bruce

August 27th, 2005, 09:41 PM

I see where Brad?s going with this, I think. It?s an interesting twist, and not so far removed from Wilhelm as one might think.

Wilhelm refers to the fish as an insignificant other which must be tolerated if they are to be helpful or useable at some more convenient time in the future.

I think what Brad?s saying here is that the money matter (in his example) was not as important as some higher, more dominating priority at the time. So when your car breaks down, you?re up the creek without a paddle. But that?s your own fault. You were seduced away from the essential to fulfill a lustful fantasy.

44 is a fascinating hexagram to me; more so as time goes on. LiSe and I have gone ?round and ?round on this one, and I?ve come to see the Gua in her light, as well as retaining my earlier view of it. The lustful fantasy may well become an essential element to birthing the king?s child.

bruce

August 27th, 2005, 10:32 PM

Just for the heck of it, I was thinking of an example. It just happens to be one from my own history.

A man marries early, has kids and holds down a responsible job. Then one day an old buddy from his high school band days calls. Someone asked this old friend if he could put a backup band together for some singer with a recording contract; and now he?s calling to see if the responsibly married man is interested in the part.

If the man decides to follow this opportunity (maiden), he could a) find fortune, fame and satisfaction following his bliss b) piss off his wife, who then becomes very suspicious of his time away from her c) lose both his wife and his bliss. d) lose his wife and move in with the blonde background singer.

Which would be ?the right? choice:

The morally acceptable one, that would maintain his high standing with the family, church and job?

Taking a chance of pissing off his wife, and making it to rehearsals, hoping she?ll understand?

Or, leaving his wife for the woman who will support his creative endeavors?

What heirs would each choice make? Sometimes the indecent brings the most fulfillment. Sometimes not.

micheline

August 28th, 2005, 02:34 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Or, leaving his wife for the woman who will support his creative endeavors?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

my gosh that is a very interesting set of questions. Is it morally acceptable not to follow your personal destiny if your destiny is calling?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

d) lose his wife and move in with the blonde background singer. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
bruce springsteen did that. and they live happily ever after.

was this a choice you were asked to make, Bruce?

bruce

August 28th, 2005, 03:24 AM

It does shine light on the whole right and wrong subject, Micheline. I think that's a lot of what 44 is about. On the surface, the choice seems obvious, especially where character is weighed, but the heart and soul of the individual needs tending, as well.

Not only did Springsteen do it, most all successful people in the arts and entertainment field do it. A supportive and broad minded mate is pretty much a prerequisite in that business.

I chose the middle path, b. She never got over her suspicions, not even 30 years later. I left my dream behind at the peak of attainting my biggest opportunity, moved my family and began a "legitimate" career in broadcasting. But at least I stuck it out until the boys were grown and independent.

Regrets? mmmm yes/no. Would I choose to do it differently? mmm yes/no. Life seems to be a compromise. Still, I do wonder...

bruce

August 28th, 2005, 03:34 AM

There?s an underlying irony in this picture. My wife (then) intentionally went off the pill without telling me, and so I married her to bear a legitimate heir. The very 44 I succumbed to was the one that created the moral structure I would adhere to, in the name of what was right.

clarissa

August 28th, 2005, 05:50 AM

"44.4 is a case where the avoidance of distraction...has itself become the distraction."

Can you elaborate? Are you talking about someone who is going out of their way to avoid such encounters...to the point where it has become a problem? You mean something like...someone overly uptight, conservative, practical etc? Someone who needs to loosen up?

bradford_h

August 28th, 2005, 07:34 AM

Hi Clarissa-
I think that's part of it. Or too busy. Or frightened. Or "tracted" or undistracted.
Bottom line, there's an emptiness and nobody to blame it on but our subject, who hasn't really examined the whole problem yet. This needs to be looked at from various sides (zhi gua 57). This is just "dawning" on him (the qi in qi xiong) - the fish will not swim to him just because he now desires one. This needs to be among his wants now.

void

August 28th, 2005, 10:05 AM

Your above observations were most illuminating for me Brad - re the money question - (I had never really recovered from the bluntness of no fish in the bag,) hmm, since at the time it was most pressing for me to leave my job and my focus was certainly on other things, not money, not material things at all..I definately considered "money a distraction from your higher purposes.."nevertheless I could see I would need some fish, alas none were forthcoming....

I have some trouble equating your ideas Bruce of 'lustful fantasy' and destiny ?? Seems like you equate one with the other ?

My distraction was not to do with lust but may have or felt like it was to do with destiny, or maybe you can have a lust for destiny ? But the word lust always implies for me something wrong or forbidden, and how can following your destiny be wrong ?

bruce

August 28th, 2005, 01:42 PM

Void, a lustful fantasy, the way I?m using the term, can be synonymous with spiritual aspiration. My whole point was to debunk the concept of right and wrong in the superficial way we commonly define it ? and the way Wilhelm defines it, also.

It doesn't matter if you "do the right thing" if you do it for the wrong reason. And doing what is not socially acceptable, for the right reasons, can be the hero?s journey.

bradford_h

August 28th, 2005, 03:26 PM

Void

"and how can following your destiny be wrong ?"

Well, it certainly messes with other aspects of life. I imagine Gandhi's poor wife when he announces he's going to be celibate now. Although he likely was no stud muffin to begin with. Buddha abandoned his family. Of course it killed Jesus and a lot of others. Higher purpose usually exacts some price or compromise. Me, I'm just all out of fish.

bruce

August 28th, 2005, 03:39 PM

Ask Dobro for some. His come with chips.

lightangel

August 28th, 2005, 04:56 PM

"Although he likely was no stud muffin to begin with"

Lol!!

What if there is no higher purpose to begin with? What if it's all in your imagination? Wishful thinking! It sure sounds like wishful thinking, all those fantasies about the backup singer, Bruce! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

bruce

August 28th, 2005, 05:06 PM

Mere poetic license, Angel. She was actually a booking agent. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

bruce

August 28th, 2005, 05:17 PM

But I do agree with you, Angel. Following after the maiden could become, and most often does, a puff of smoke. That's why it's good to know her well before marrying her.

bradford_h

August 28th, 2005, 05:41 PM

People keep trying to comfort me, saying
"There's plenty of other fish in this tree"
But no matter how high I climb I don't see them

bruce

August 28th, 2005, 07:19 PM

perchance a fish uneaten
unseen even

lightangel

August 28th, 2005, 08:19 PM

A booking agent? that is totally different!
You missed your big opportunity!!
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

And fish don't grow on trees!

bradford_h

August 28th, 2005, 09:05 PM

One of my favorite science writers, Loren Eisley, had a passage somewhere about floating down the Amazon and seeing some kind of fish looking down on him from up in the trees, and how very, very, very wrong that was.

kevin

August 28th, 2005, 09:34 PM

Brad

Not read the thread, yet... but seen a post or two...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

People keep trying to comfort me, saying
"There's plenty of other fish in this tree"
But no matter how high I climb I don't see them<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Thanks for the image... chuckling... so very true!!!

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

Wonderful

--K

lightangel

August 28th, 2005, 11:32 PM

Hmmmm... you might be right...

Fish on Trees (http://www.yesmag.bc.ca/Questions/Fish_Trees.html)

Keep going up that tree! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

seeker

August 29th, 2005, 01:08 AM

Fish on trees, sounds Seussianhttp://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

micheline

August 29th, 2005, 03:19 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

It doesn't matter if you "do the right thing" if you do it for the wrong reason. And doing what is not socially acceptable, for the right reasons, can be the hero?s journey.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

This topic is so interesting to me in big ways and little ways. Maybe on a different thread would be more appropriate, but I appreciate the way this stretches my understanding of hex 44.

I am thinking of prince charles and camilla. He did the socially acceptable thing by marrying Diana, and yet was it truly moral in light of his Great Temptation to be with the woman he really wanted.

Maybe to really be on the hero's journey is to renounce your worldly "throne" of social acceptance, choosing authenticity in spite of the costs. The hero's journey can be long and arduous. Do most choose to live behind the white picket fence of safety? NOt altogether unfulfilling, but still..

Is the fish a symbol for *commitment* or pure conviction, which, if they are lacking, spells disaster

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

It is necessary for elements predestined to be joined and mutually dependent to come to meet one another halfway. But the coming together must be free of dishonest ulterior motives, otherwise harm will result.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Then again, maybe all this has nothing to do with the price of fish (on trees). Or does it?

bruce

August 29th, 2005, 03:57 AM

Micheline,

I'm glad to see the same lights fire up in your head that this Gua has fired up in mine. I think it's one of those secret things that are kept only for the brave-hearted, and then only when there?s nothing left to lose.

Joe Campbell has written and recorded a great deal about The Hero's Journey, and was George Lucas' inspiration for Star Wars. Joe has much in common with Carl Jung, but has focused more on local legends and lore. Fascinating stuff.

Anyway, 44 separates the men from the mice, where dealing with morality is concerned. Easy answers are no longer easy, when you consider what?s at stake, in either direction or with either choice. It?s your kid you?re going bear, either way.

void

August 29th, 2005, 09:53 AM

This is an interesting thread for me too - I am beginning to see the point Brad and Bruce are making. New Age thinking has gotten to me too much and I forget how following your truth, your destiny can lead you into big trouble with your world, or the people in your world. By New Age thinking I mean a very loose collection of ideas from all over which generally give the idea that if you are walking the right path, your path, no great difficulties or obstructions will come your way. Thats just my perception of 'new age'. (Does anyone agree with this perception or is it something perculiar to me, that I picked up somewhere along the line ?)

Yet like Brad says above people have died for such, decisions a person makes to follow their destiny may be much discouraged and disaproved of or like Bruce says (i think)be considered wrong or immoral in the eyes of the society we live in.

Its all very interesting to me now as I have no fish, my family disaprove of me or think I'm crazy and I'm following on something I can't even define. I might be being heroic in my own little way OR I might just be a lazy bum who is avoiding reality. Ah well if destiny is destiny you couldn't avoid it even if you wanted to, could you ?

lightangel

August 29th, 2005, 01:32 PM

This is a very interesting subject for me too.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Maybe to really be on the hero's journey is to renounce your worldly "throne" of social acceptance, choosing authenticity in spite of the costs. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I personally don't ever feel like I'm on a hero's journey, but I very often find myself renouncing "my throne". Sometimes I worry that my kids have a weird mother, although I'm aware that I could be a lot weirder. But that's where the crux of the matter is, I think. Following your truth can be very much at odds with the responsabilities you have chosen to acquire. So maybe you shouldn't worry about social acceptance, but you are accountable to the other people in your life.. no?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

I might be being heroic in my own little way OR I might just be a lazy bum who is avoiding reality. Ah well if destiny is destiny you couldn't avoid it even if you wanted to, could you ?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Hey, I'm also accused of avoiding reality.. usually when I'm being lazy.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif..

The question I have is: is it transcendental, the choice that you make? Will it change the big picture if you avoid reality or not, if you follow your dreams or not. As Micheline pointed out, if you chose conformism, it's not all that bad.. so.. what difference does it make - in the long run?

bruce

August 29th, 2005, 03:22 PM

Ya choose your maiden and takes yer chances. But your or my choices do make a difference in our lives and in the lives we touch, for better, worse or something in-between.

micheline

August 29th, 2005, 05:02 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

New Age thinking has gotten to me too much and I forget how following your truth, your destiny can lead you into big trouble with your world, or the people in your world. By New Age thinking I mean a very loose collection of ideas from all over which generally give the idea that if you are walking the right path, your path, no great difficulties or obstructions will come your way. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

"New age" thought is misinterpreted by many.....no path of true destiny, and certainly no hero's path, is free of obstruction/difficulties/tests of your mettle.
YOu gotta slay those dragons, ya know? BUt That makes it fun, too.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Its all very interesting to me now as I have no fish, my family disaprove of me or think I'm crazy and I'm following on something I can't even define. I might be being heroic in my own little way OR I might just be a lazy bum who is avoiding reality.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

the doubts you feel may all well be part of the process. Remember the little ugly duckling? How sad to be alienated and ostracized by the people around you..how sad to be misunderstood.....

nobody arrives at the hero's destination without first having to discover and cultivate the essential faith in oneself..the ugly duckling did not know he was a swan.....for a long time he just wondered what the hell was wrong with him and why couldnt he fit in? BUt he kept moving...he kept looking, he kept being true to his inner call...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Ah well if destiny is destiny you couldn't avoid it even if you wanted to, could you ?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
YES, you can!
I SO AGREE with Bruce. Our choices make a huge difference. The fulfillment of our destiny is not pre-slated. Maybe the blueprint is there, but the creation and execution is solely our choice to make, or NOT make. Sometimes we make the choice by default.

void

August 30th, 2005, 10:25 AM

But in the end there is no where else for us to go but our own destiny. In a sense we can't get lost, without time we are already there. For me there is a paradox as in there is choice and no choice. Right now we experience choice, must do or we wouldn't consult Yi Jing I guess.

You bringing up ugly duckling tale was very synchronistic for me, as believe me I see that tale everywhere I go lately. When I was little it would make me cry - alot, and when I heard the song I was inconsolable.

Thanks to you all, this thread been good.

lightangel

August 30th, 2005, 12:44 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

But in the end there is no where else for us to go but our own destiny. In a sense we can't get lost, without time we are already there. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I like that. I think I agree. In another thread, I think, there's this idea of being able to move, to be fluid, but within constraints. Like a river moves within the river bed..

bruce

August 30th, 2005, 01:27 PM

Way I view pre-destiny vs. will, it all depends on from what position it?s viewed from. From the future looking back, it?s unchangeable. But from the present looking forward, choices shape our future. And since we live in the present...

I love life as a river image, Angel. So did Siddhartha. So does Kan.

lightangel

August 30th, 2005, 01:43 PM

Yes, our choices make our destiny, no doubt about that. I tell my kids that all the time <chuckle>.

But when I wonder whether it all matters, I'm thinking about our ultimate destinies, the bigger picture, sort of. Our lives are such tiny little things. If we really trascend, if there is "more".. will it really matter which maiden I chose and what reasons were behind my choice? Regardless, one day I will reach the end, in spite of myself, in spite of the choices I make.. I think.

bruce

August 30th, 2005, 01:58 PM

I agree, our lives are small, alone. But considering only one life we touch or affect, and the lives they touch and affect, and so on, maybe not so small as we think. From Kun, we just go with the plan. From Chien, we create it. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/mischief.gif

peace

August 30th, 2005, 03:48 PM

I too have gotten confused with New Age thinking.
It can get very "magical" in thinking we have predestined karma and alot more control than we really do - very appealing to narcissism.

We do what we do, take care of what we take care of, get sick, die, have joy and touch a few lives.

At least that's the "ordinary" life I'm moving towards now.
I've had the drama, success, excitement and it kept me out of touch with reality.
Yesterday, I went to the car dealership and got a brake light changed - I waited my turn and sat and waited for it to get fixed. At one time I would have been annoyed - just like being put on hold about bills and insurance. It is what it is and everyone has to go through it.

Rosalie

micheline

August 30th, 2005, 06:12 PM

Void,
I believe there is a touch of the ugly duckling in all of us, just as there is a hidden swan.
BUt some of us feel that sense of being "odd man out" more deeply than others. And many precious souls are born to families who have no idea what to make of them.
I think it is interesting that you call yourself VOID too. It reminds me of my childhood. there were times when I felt invisible. esp unseen for who I really was.

Anyway, you are a swan, Void, and I wish you well on your journey.

ithaki

August 30th, 2005, 06:59 PM

Does it ultimately matter if I DO SOMETHING?
Free will, I can do this or that or nothing,
but it doesn't feel right unless ... what?
Unless it's true to what I am or in the process of becoming?

Does this somehow reconcile free will and 'destiny'?
I cannot go against my own grain for long?

But sometimes it can be tricky knowing what it is to go against one's grain.
When you make choices you have to be careful about how those choices affect
other people, since we all seem to be interconnected, anyway. So, maybe
sometimes you feel like following your true destiny but you are neglecting another part of it.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

bruce

August 30th, 2005, 07:40 PM

Ithaki, for a mathematician you sure speak as a poet. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

I don't know if there's a resolution of free will and destiny. I know I've wrestled with the question as much as anyone, and I can only see it through my cognitive imagination.

Much of being true to yourself is how much of your truth you can afford to entirely be at a given point in time. If circumstances demand that you or I do something that 'feels' outside our self, then we have to find it within ourselves to go out and meet that demand. But I believe there comes a point in life where demands of this world no longer bind us to obligations, other than merely being true to our truth, and nothing more. That is, if you believe in magic tortoises and such, and not in the world, screaming in your ears.

val

August 30th, 2005, 07:50 PM

Ithaki...

I was a card-carrying atheist when I first came to this forum about two and half years ago, and then I started dreaming...
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/703.html

I don't believe a person can realize their destiny unless they exercise their free will. A person can't even survive unless they exercise their free will... unless, of course, someone takes care of all their survival needs for them.

Love,

Val

ithaki

August 30th, 2005, 07:52 PM

Bruce,

As a mathematician, I believe in equal opportunity for each line that I write. I want to make sure the number of letters in each one is an even number..

I leave it up to you to verify that I achieved that! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

ithaki

August 30th, 2005, 08:03 PM

More seriously,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Much of being true to yourself is how much of your truth you can afford to entirely be at a given point in time.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I totally agree. You can't always afford to be completely true to yourself. And there goes your free will...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

But I believe there comes a point in life where demands of this world no longer bind us to obligations, other than merely being true to our truth, and nothing more. That is, if you believe in magic tortoises and such, and not in the world, screaming in your ears.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
There comes a point in life... to everyone, you think? How do you get to that point? Is it an internal process, is it external luck???

Val,
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

I don't believe a person can realize their destiny unless they exercise their free will. A person can't even survive unless they exercise their free will... <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I think you can exercise your free will by just 'going with the flow' sometimes. It's one of our options. If that's what it takes! But how will we know if we did fulfill our destiny??? Maybe our destiny is also fluid, maybe our destiny is simply to live for a while...

I do consider myself extremely lucky, so I won't even get into survival, but you can just go with the flow in life without necessarily having somebody take care of you the whole time.. in my experience.

I'm not really an atheist, btw. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

void

August 30th, 2005, 08:19 PM

If destiny shows through our deepest truest desires then we might resist it a long time, even over many lifetimes, but in the end won't it be irresistable to us ? Being irresistable how much freewill did we really have ?

Of course I believe in the importance of some of our choices and in the importance of free will. If I didn't there wouldn't be any point in my troubling over decisions ( I'm not sure Val how much free will I had about coming here - to this planet - and I didn't do much to survive once I got here - squalled a bit, got fed, bathed, changed etc. )but what makes us call it 'destiny' is that pretty irresistable 'pull' some name it a 'calling'.

peace

August 30th, 2005, 08:23 PM

Sometimes when we don't want to do something and say we have free will, we are only going against what we believe someone/s says we should be doing.
Then it's merely defiance - and is only the flip side of doing what we're supposed to do.

I Ching is good for helping sort that out - What do I really want to do, not want to do and what is merely - "I'll do my own thing no matter what you say I should do".

Rosalie

bruce

August 30th, 2005, 08:38 PM

Ithaki, you wrote: ?but you can just go with the flow in life without necessarily having somebody take care of you the whole time.. in my experience.?

I wholeheartedly agree. There?ve been many times throughout my life when, according to ?the books? and records, I should not have been able to survive. But I always have. Support isn?t free, though, ever. The universe requires something of equal value to be returned to it, in accord with your inner truth. But if one is too busy believing the evidence (groveling before the facts), there's never enough room for faith to work its magic.

val

August 30th, 2005, 08:39 PM

Hi Ithaki...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

I think you can exercise your free will by just 'going with the flow'
sometimes.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Oh absolutely. Whenever one makes a choice... whether to rest or to push ahead or consult the Yi or whatever, it's exercising one's free will. Even if one chooses not to be true to oneself... it's still exercising free will... because it's still making a choice.

I think I was aware of a kind of either/or attitude toward the destiny/free will question before my dreams started, but after I finally accepted the one recurring dream, it was no longer a matter of either/or. It was both. One does not preclude the other. They exist together harmoniously for me.

I'm sorry if anyone misunderstood my 'atheist' statement. It's just that I'm still amazed at the rather radical change in my belief system, and I really should learn to be quiet about it now. It's novel to no one but me... lol... probably always will be.

Love,

Val

ithaki

August 30th, 2005, 08:50 PM

Val,

I sure hope I didn't misunderstand your 'atheist' statement! I don't think being an atheist is a bad thing. In fact, I think it's very pure to still be able to be and feel like a human being, without the desire of retribution or the fear of punishment.

The main reason I could not be an atheist (at the moment - I try to never say never) is that I don't have (and don't want to have) that kind of intellectual certainty, one way or another.

Spiritually, it's different. I see where you are coming from and the radical change you must have experienced. On a feeling level, it's much easier to be certain..

bruce

August 30th, 2005, 09:01 PM

Health or wellness care is a good example. I know folks who?s medication regiment is enough to choke an elephant, each day. And rather than getting better, their health continues to deteriorate. I know others who may rely on some meds to manage their physical illness, but supplement that with a lot of positive reinforcement from belief and self-help, who continue living a healthy life.

bradford_h

August 30th, 2005, 09:24 PM

Hi Rosalie-
If I didn't already have a science and logic background to shield me from new age and magical thinking, I think I'd find Carl Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit" really helpful:
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html
Of course this doesn't imply that life isn't magic :-)

val

August 30th, 2005, 09:42 PM

Hi Bruce...

I'm talking literal survival needs (and I'm one to be very careful to know the difference between wants and needs)... being feed whether you choose to eat or not ... being clothed against the weather whether you choose to be or not... being sheltered from the elements whether you choose to be or not.

I understand what you mean. When I was in Virginia, I didn't know that I would survive after that hard winter. I honestly don't believe I would have if I didn't make the choices I did... PHEW! Am I ever glad I did and that's over.

Love,

Val

bruce

August 30th, 2005, 10:05 PM

Hi Val,

Erm, so am I talking of literal survival needs. Needs and wants, especially 'needs', is a topic I brought up a long while back, after reading Neale D. Walsch's book, Friendship With God, where, he takes up the "illusion" of need. I place illusion in quotes because that is his word for it. "Need" is still an item of serious interest for me. But I admit, it's a word where semantics can muddy things up pretty well, just like the word 'illusion' can. Perhaps to sum up my take on the word 'need': the more need I think I have, the more need I seem to possess. The less focus I place on need, the freer I seem to become of them.

The most commonly mentioned need in this regard is breathing. But the less I think of my need for air, the easier I breathe. Same with will: the more I will to breathe, the more conscious effort it requires to do what otherwise comes naturally. I don't think it's a stretch to go from breathing to eating to shelter, or any other perceived need.

bruce

August 30th, 2005, 10:33 PM

New Age seems to be one of those terms with different connotations to different individuals. My observation of most who practice New Age healing and such, is that most seem to have their feet pretty far off the ground. There?s often no skepticism to anything spirit related, so it?s an ?anything is possible? proposition, which can get pretty flighty, imo. With most there seems little attention given to the psychology of how and why things appear as they do, with most of their attention absorbed in manifestations of one kind or another.

That said, I?m more a believer in many such things than any time in the past. I sometimes wear an amber stone with a pine seed embedded into it, and I swear it seems to return me to myself and to essentials. Same with these homeopathic tiny sugar pills I take, which have had energies run into them through computer processing. Sounds hokey, until considering that sugar is crystal, which makes for a great storage medium for data and energy. All I know is it works. So I?m more skeptical of my skepticism these days.

val

August 30th, 2005, 11:43 PM

I'm going to get back to the subject of 44 here for just a second. I'll be quick. Promise!

Again... experience has been my best teacher, and one of my recent experiences with 44 was reading with my YiJing cards for a woman I work with. She drew 44 and I saw that she has an addiction problem... a dependency on alcohol about which she's in complete denial. When I tried to tell her what 44 was saying to her, she cut me off, saying "I know what it's saying." Soon after that I had it confirmed for me. She's an alcoholic from an alcoholic family.

After that reading on top of some other experiences I've had with 44, I interpret the hexagram statement as saying, "Though she is healthy (or though she is strong), do not marry her," rather than "Because she is strong, do not marry her."

Though the buzz from the alcohol seems like a good place to be, do not embrace it. Though the euphoria and peacefulness from the heroin seem like Nirvana, do not indulge in it. Though the money and perks for the job you're being offered may be irrestible, do not take it.

44 is about seduction by something that will harm you in the long run. 33.2, a monkey on your back, leads to 44. That's one of the most connected line changes I know in the Yi.

Love,

Val

jesed

August 31st, 2005, 12:26 AM

Hi Val

Just in case it can be useful

44 not always is about "seduction by something that will harm you in the long run". When Heaven and Earth meet each other, everything is created.

44 is meeting. Is this meeting auspiciuos or pitfall? That depends:

a) If the encountering is "half the way" (it means equaly, correct, proper) there will be blessing.
b) If one exceed the "half way" (arrogance, to much determination...and so on) is a temptation.

So 44 is saying: you must be careful in order to see if the oportunity is correct or just a temptation.

Best wishes

bradford_h

August 31st, 2005, 12:36 AM

Bruce-
I like your comment. There is indeed a middle path.
My life got lots better when I was introduced to the concept of "suspending disbelief". It even helped my inner scientist to go exploring.

bruce

August 31st, 2005, 12:55 AM

Thanks, Brad.

I think it's the names we assign that are the real stumbling blocks. "Oh, it's this", and so off we go running after it. Or, we fold our arms in refusal and miss the illusive golden ring.

Yes, I agree that the middle path is both the more secure and adventurous. Think I read somewhere ?Trust in Allah, But Tie Your Camel First?.

val

August 31st, 2005, 12:57 AM

Hi Jesed...

FYI... I'm referring to the original lines in the YiJing, the Zhouyi. The commentary you've quoted was, of course, added much later in history, and I don't find it useful to understanding 44. I am happy for you, however, that you do.

Love,

Val

bruce

August 31st, 2005, 01:09 AM

Hi Val,

After reading your last posts, I had a picture pop into my head of someone rolling dice on a craps table. "Luck, be a lady tonight!" is a pretty decent (or indecent?) image of 44, I think. Did they gamble back in the Zhouyi days?

jesed

August 31st, 2005, 01:12 AM

Hi Val
"The commentary you've quoted was, of course, added much later in history, and I don't find it useful to understanding 44"

That's Ok, I just want to add that I'm talking from experience with the Hexagram in real cases, not only from "text analysis".

In my own practice, several times 44 was actually saying "you should meet her/him" and nothing harm the consultant later.

I think in late years are an obssession about "original text". Of course study the "original text" is important. But ignore everything else seems to me like an excess. But, that's jus my idea ;)

Best wishes

val

August 31st, 2005, 02:40 AM

Hi again Jesed...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

That's Ok, I just want to add that I'm talking from experience with
the Hexagram in real cases, not only from "text analysis".<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

As am I... and as are most people who post here Jesed. Just a quick memory refresher of what I posted. Since you wrote the above, it would appear that you either missed it or forgot it:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Again... experience has been my best teacher, and one of my recent experiences with 44... blah blah blah... After that reading on top of some other experiences I've had with 44, I interpret the hexagram statement as saying... yada yada yada.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Additionally Jesed, I'm happy to say I have very strong intuition and have no trouble using it to read the Yi. I was very strongly intuitive when I saw what 44 meant for the woman here at work, and my reading last night was strong intuition (see my post about it this morning):

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/5103.html?1125425803

I've been open to and paying especially close attention to 44 ever since I came to this forum two and a half years ago. It's one of the two hexagrams I came here enquiring about in my very first post. And the reading I did for the woman here at work recently really pulled it all together for me.

Love,

Val

val

August 31st, 2005, 02:45 AM

Hiya Bruce...

Rolling dice... gambling... a very good image of 44.

I don't know if they had gambling. I'm going to guess they probably did... ... until I find out I'm going to guess, of course... *grin* Do you suppose they had 12-step programs too? Or maybe they had 44-step programs? What do you think?

Love,

Val

bruce

August 31st, 2005, 03:26 AM

lol, maybe a 64 step program!

hilary

August 31st, 2005, 10:44 AM

Some 'strong women' of our own culture:<ul> Lady Luck (Fortuna) <LI>the Fates <LI>the Sirens <LI>Eve <LI>Mary <LI>your Muse[/list]

rinda

August 31st, 2005, 01:38 PM

...my future step-daughter! (about whom I drew a 44, just before this thread started!!!)

Rinda

bruce

August 31st, 2005, 01:44 PM

Hi Hilary,

Can you say more about the Fates? And if I understand 'your Muse' correctly, that was a 'he', I think. Are you saying a man can represent the strong woman of 44 to a woman, or that 44 is the strong woman to the Muse?

A little confuzzled.

hilary

August 31st, 2005, 02:00 PM

Erm, I wasn't trying to say anything hugely specific... (insert blurry smilie here)

If I remember rightly, the Fates are crones, spinning or cutting the threads of individual lives. You were talking earlier about 44 and 'destiny', and how that might disrupt or sabotage daily life. Hm - second thoughts, maybe the Fates themselves don't fit enormously well.

I thought Muses (http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/mythology/names/muses.htm) were generally female? (Can't answer for yours, of course. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif ) But the arrival of inspiration, conceiving a new life, and again the possibility that this might turn everything else upside down - all seems very Muse-like, and very 44-ish also.

44 is the inner core of 33. People retreat into caves to be visited by spirits, or into garrets to be visited by Muses.