a place to work

[carin]

A good friend of mine, she is an artist, is going to move from city to the countryside. She still has a houseboat in the city which she was planning to sell. But today she suggested to keep it, for herself and her work, and there would be enough room for me too, since I have too little room myself for woodcarving and bookbinding. So I do have an interest in this whole project...
She asked the I Ching if it would be a good idea to do so.
And she got 62. Two moving lines: 1, and 2.

Is there anybody who can help with this answer?


Thanks, if you would try...

Carin

[willowfox]

But today she suggested to keep it, she asked the I Ching if it would be a good idea to do so.
And she got 62. Two moving lines: 1, and 2.

Hex 62.1 says not to fly, stay in the nest, ie she should not sell the house boat but she should keep it.

Hex 62.2 says for her not to over reach, to show self restraint, again an indication not to sell. It also suggests that you and her should stay together on the boat, female meets with female.

Hex 34 says that she should avoid any action that upsets her peace and harmony and she should not go down the wrong road in this situation. If she wants to sell then she should think very carefully and wait for a much better time.

Therefore, her answer here is to keep the house boat for the foreseeable future, selling it would not be a good idea. Line two suggests that the two of you can stay together or at least get on well together. The only thing that I can see here is that she maybe has some financial problems, what do you think?

[ewald]

I see 62.1 as a general indication of something going wrong. The flying bird is an omen of misfortune. 62.2 is about looking too high up to get help for solving a problem, as it can be solved with someone or something simpler.

Hexagram 62 is in my view about there being too little of something. Hexagram 34 is about forcing things.

So keeping the houseboat is a way of forcing things, while there is too little, which is not a good idea. Perhaps it is too expensive to keep the boat, while the problems it solves, like providing extra space, can be solved in easier ways.

[willowfox]

Hex 62.1 "to go above means insubordination, but to go below means obedience", therefore to advance (sell the houseboat) would bring misfortune. "if the flying bird has no place to rest its feet that would be inauspicious", again suggesting that she should not sell the houseboat. This hex suggests not to take to the air, ie stay grounded (think before she leaps) or in this case remain in the water. Flying suggests flyers, leaflets, advertising, in the air (advertising on the internet).

Hex 62.2 "he does not go as far as his sovereign but does meet his minister, so there is no blame". She does not over reach herself by trying to sell the houseboat, she is limited in what she can realistically achieve. Trying to sell the boat would mean going beyond what she is normally capable of doing. She cannot reach the sovereign, the potential buyer, she has to make do with a smaller course of action here, and that would be to keep the houseboat and either rent it out or use it as a base when in the city.

[ewald]

Willowfox - There is no "if" in 62.1, there is misfortune anyway, in the situation that is consulted about.

The technical details:
In my view Wilhelm didn't translate this correctly from the original Chinese. The bird is a "flying bird" and the causal relationship suggested by the Chinese character that Wilhelm translated with "through," is between the "misfortune" and the "flying bird," not between the "bird" and it's "flying." The bird is indicating good fortune flying away. I suppose Wilhelm wasn't aware of the behavior of birds being taken as omens.

[willowfox]

Perhaps Hex 62.1 does not use the word "if" but rather the word "when".

I suppose Wilhelm wasn't aware of the behavior of birds being taken as omens.

I would truly believe that Wilhelm, after living in China for a great many years, would certainly know many of the Chinese omens, including the ones about birds. Some bird omens are extremely unfortunate, as you may well know. Some birds are classed as lucky while some birds are the opposite, such as the death bird, which comes a calling when somebody is about to die. This is an asian bird, probably its equivalent in the west would be a crow/raven.

"The bird is indicating good fortune flying away".

Very sorry but I completely disagree with your statement. Nowhere is the text suggesting good fortune if the bird takes it into his/her head to fly away.


Every book states that the "flying bird" in hex 62.1 will bring misfortune upon itself by taking that action. Leaving the nest before it is ready to take on the world, business deal, selling of a boat or whatever. I believe this line is telling her not to try to do anything new/out of the ordinary, such as selling a boat. There will be dangers involved if she proceeds, probably financial, as well as legal hassles and expenses. So she should stay with the boat until she is in a much stronger position.

[ewald]

Though my translating of the Zhouyi, and comparing various translations, I have seen that similarity between various translations is in no way indicative of correctness. When things are unclear, Wilhelm's example is there, and it is taken as such. Whether he left out characters from translating, had a weird interpunction, added words that aren't there in the original Chinese, or was inconsequential, I've seen it all repeated elsewhere.

The same combination of Chinese characters, "flying bird" is there in 62.0 and 62.6. In 62.0, the "flying bird" "leaves a message," in 62.6 the "flying bird" "leaves him." Both times, the verbs indicate that "flying bird" is one concept, so it is likely to be one concept in 62.1 as well, "to fly" is not the verb of this sentence.

In 62.6, how can a flying bird leaving be inauspicious? Only if it is an omen. In 62.0, how can a flying bird leave a message? Dito. So in 62.1 the flying bird is an omen as well. An inauspicious one.

I'm explaining the inauspiciousness of the omen by saying that the good fortune is flying away. That's not in the text, but it's a good explanation.

[carin]

Therefore, her answer here is to keep the house boat for the foreseeable future, selling it would not be a good idea. Line two suggests that the two of you can stay together or at least get on well together. The only thing that I can see here is that she maybe has some financial problems, what do you think?

Hi Willowfox,

The financial problem she really has, is that she spends money when she has it...
She was able to buy the houseboat because of an inheritance, and she let her son and his young family live there for some years. Now they have moved away.
So selling the houseboat would mean, getting money for it and being able to spend it. In two years it might all be gone. And I would pay her a (small) monthly rent, but enough for the maintainance of the boat.

Interesting, how you and Ewald have different views.I keep thinking, what could the mistake be, if Ewald is right? Your interpretation seems closer, though.

Anyway, thanks both of you and Trojan. And I'm still in for other interpretations.

Carin

[ewald]

Trojan - as long as you don't ask of me to change my interpretation because Wilhelm has it different, it's fine with me. I've usually spent quite some time and effort to ponder the meaning of a line.

If 62.1 was about a young bird that shouldn't fly out of it's nest, in the Chinese there would have been some text about this being a "little" bird, and there would have been a character for "nest." These are words that are elsewhere in the Yi. As they aren't there, I don't believe that this is the situation.

[willowfox]

I forgot to mention earlier but there seems to also be a problem with the value of the houseboat. Is her asking price too high, because I feel that it is not worth as much as she thinks it is. Did she pay too much for it in the first place?

"I'm explaining the inauspiciousness of the omen by saying that the good fortune is flying away. That's not in the text, but it's a good explanation".

Sorry but I see it as inauspicious to fly away, to leave home before one is properly prepared to do so. Would you let your young child leave home without the proper preparations? If you said yes and let and let your chid go then I am sure that your child would end up in a great deal of trouble/dead. This line reminds me of what can happen to runaway children.

[ewald]

Willowfox - Like I said, there is nothing in 62.1 about a young child, a young bird or leaving (in 62.6 there is talk about leaving, by the flying bird).

Of course you can think of all kinds of stories that have elements of a flying bird and misfortune. That it flies, can make you think it is flying away, but that is not in the text. It might be flying by, or be flying as opposed to sitting around. It might even be flying to drop that message from 62.0. Fact is, there is only a flying bird and some unclear causal relationship with misfortune in those four characters of Chinese of 62.1.

[trojan]

Trojan - as long as you don't ask of me to change my interpretation because Wilhelm has it different, it's fine with me. I've usually spent quite some time and effort to ponder the meaning of a line.

.

You must have read my post quick as I deleted it shortly after posting, cos I wanted to think some more.

I'm no slave to Wilhelm btw but what I was getting at in my original post is many people have used Wilhelm from years ago, when there wasn't much else around, and through him, plus their own experience have almost welded together their understanding of the Yi for their own practical divination purposes. This site comes along, more books, more information and our understanding changes and grows but on the whole I find these new angles, new understandings don't radically undo all i understood about a hexagram or a line, they just add to it, modify it, clarify it.

You say above you have usually spent quite some time pondering a line , I would like to ask you is this in relation to your experience of that line or purely your academic study ?
Most of us here have spent very much time pondering the meaning of a line also and how it has worked in our lives.

I ask because I often find your interpretations often do tend to go against all my previous understanding of a hexagram or line, and indeed other interpretations. Here for instance you say hexagram 62 is about having 'too little' ? Well possibly maybe on occasion depending on the question but overall I generally see 62 as advise to keep within your means to keep it small and attend to detail.

[trojan]

Have re read the thread and if I interpret the answer in the context of the question which was how would it be if the boat is NOT sold - then I would have to take it as you overstep your limits in some way if you don't sell the boat but i quite like the look of line two and Willowfox idea that it represents the two of you women on the boat - and 34 is pretty dynamic, the pair of you can get alot done. Hmm actually I think I do see 62,2 as pretty favourable here. I think of 62 as above all a practical hexagram, how to make things work within the means one has - I see line 2 as saying this works, its within your range of what is useful and available even if different from an original grander plan.

If it was my reading I think I'd want to consult again with a slightly different angle because its not that definate.

[ewald]

You say above you have usually spent quite some time pondering a line , I would like to ask you is this in relation to your experience of that line or purely your academic study ? That is pondering the translation and meaning of a line from the Chinese, and how it works out in the readings of me and those in this forum. I don't have decades of experience with the Yi. After a couple of years of working with it, at first just Wilhelm's text, than other texts as well, I decided to start working on getting the meanings clear.

I was frustrated with the overall lack of clarity of what the lines mean, and as you can attest, to that later came a frustration with the lack of accurateness of existing translations and particularly Wilhelm's. This has made me suspicious of anything people have written, and with what people say that particular lines mean. I haven't really thrown everything out of the window, but I do want to make sure that I have re-examined everything several times before I commit to a particular interpretation. This forum is for me a way to get confronted with different views, and for seeing how real readings work out, so as to get different angles for re-examining.

I'm still in the process of refining the accurateness of my translation. Trojan, your comment that you don't think that 62 is about things being too little is an interesting one, and I'm in the process of re-examining this, together with 28. I find that the hexagram names of these two are hard to translate adequately. In Richard Smith's list (http://www.aasianst.org/EAA/smith3.pdf), I haven't seen a single translation for these that I find even a little convincing. I currently have "Too Much" and "Too Little", but I'm not sure enough of them.

[willowfox]

Another text says, "to be a flying bird here would mean misfortune".

Again and again, I take this to mean for her to stay still and keep the houseboat.

I am sorry but I trust Wilhelm, Lynn, Jou, Tsung Hwa, Balkin, Blofeld etc.. Therefore what makes your understanding of Chinese so different from those scholars?

[jesed]

Hi carin


Before giving my comment, I would like to ask you 2 questionf for clarification:

1.- Is it a "qualification of an idea" (I mean, something like.. is this proyect a good idea?) or a "prospection of development" (it would be an OK outcome if I undertake X?)

2.- And what idea is?
a) Your friend's idea to move countryside?
b) Your friend's idea to not sell the houseboat?
c) Your friend's idea to invite you to live with her in the houseboat?

Best wishes

[ewald]

Another text says, "to be a flying bird here would mean misfortune". The four Chinese characters have these meanings:
飛 - fly, leap, in the air / go quickly, rapidly / go far away, cross over, far / scatter apart, separate
鳥 - bird
以 - by means of, through, by, with / because of, according to / in order to, so as to / regard as, use as, take as, consider as / giving cause
凶 - inauspicious, unlucky, bad luck, of ill omen, evil

[Edited]
The "to be" part sounds a bit weird to me, and I'm not quite sure whether that can be there without a Chinese character accounting for it, but appart from that it sounds like a valid translation. "Would mean" is something like "regard as, use as, take as, consider as" (which I missed in an earlier analysis). It however doesn't seem to acknowledge that the other two sentences about the flying bird take it to be an omen.

I am sorry but I trust Wilhelm, Lynn, Jou, Tsung Hwa, Balkin, Blofeld etc.. Therefore what makes your understanding of Chinese so different from those scholars? Sure, you are free to trust them, and ignore the reasons that I did give (and they didn't) for why I translate 62.1 this way.

Differences in understanding can come from using more modern dictionaries by me. A distinctive factor is that I'm using web and database technology that I made myself to very quickly check dictionary meanings and contexts, and have quick access to notes. Other reasons are that I, based on my psychological and spiritual knowledge, have reasons to reject several Confucian reinterpretations of the Zhouyi text. Also, I don't bother with line calculations (correctness of lines based on yin/yang), and trust the original Zhouyi text most. The original Zhouyi text is where the real work was done.

[carin]

1.- Is it a "qualification of an idea" (I mean, something like.. is this proyect a good idea?) or a "prospection of development" (it would be an OK outcome if I undertake X?)

2.- And what idea is?
a) Your friend's idea to move countryside?
b) Your friend's idea to not sell the houseboat?
c) Your friend's idea to invite you to live with her in the houseboat?



Well, if you ask it like this, I see that I must explain some more about the situation.

She and her man have bought a (not so very big) house in the countryside, to live there.
They wish to have a garden, more quietness, nature around, a more simple life.
It is quite new, never done this before, so it feels like a big adventure: "we feel we want this, but not sure what will happen to us. It is an experiment."

They have sold their (big) house in the city.
She still owns a houseboat there. It is empty now, and could be sold, but could also be rented. So if she keeps it, it offers
A. a kind of base when she is in the city (not too far away)
B. a large room for her to paint and work, since the new house (they are moving there in december) is rather small
C. a place to work for me as well, (we are friends)
D. the not-having-to-sell-yet

If she sells, it offers:
A. money, which is nice,
B. no more worry about the maintainance etc
C. the possibility to plunge totally in the country-life, including the ups and downs
D. indeed a more simple life,

So I will not live there, and neither will she.
I live on my own houseboat....5 minutes away from hers.
And I would be very pleased to have a place to work, a studio, and so does she.

My friends question was:"Is it a good idea to keep the boat and make it a workshop"

Hope it is more clear now?

Carin

[jesed]

Yes Carin, thanks you for the clarification.

Actually, I needed only this: "Is it a good idea to keep the boat and make it a workshop"

So is a qualification of an idea, and the idea is to make the houseboat a workshop

In one phrase: this is a good idea, even when others couls see it a little wire, IF your friend keeps extra care with small details.

Best wishes

[ewald]

Here for instance you say hexagram 62 is about having 'too little' ? Well possibly maybe on occasion depending on the question but overall I generally see 62 as advise to keep within your means to keep it small and attend to detail. Having pondered this a while, I think that this "too little" is a bit too little as a description of the general situation in 62. I still think that something must be too little in 62, though I don't find it easy to put my finger on what exactly that is. At the moment I'm leaning towards that the potential to get what one needs is too little, or at least little. One is not going to get it entirely.

62.0 - Only small things of what one needs are possible
62.1 - Not possible to get what one needs
62.2 - Not a radical way, but a simple way to get what one needs
62.3 - Protecting against harm and losing what one needs
62.4 - Facing danger to get what one needs
62.5 - Seeking alternatives to get what one needs
62.6 - Not getting what one needs at all

I think it is important to distinguish between advice and a description of the situation. Trojan, what you describe here as how you see 62 is only about what kind of advice is there. As I see it, that is not a description of the situation or the theme of the hexagram. I'd be interested to hear what you think that is.

[bruce_g]

There was an online translation/interpretation I’d use about 6 years ago. Didn’t like it very much, but it did spark some ideas about certain hexagrams that I hadn’t considered before. 62 was one of them. The theme had to do with working on details: the specifics which make up a whole. I still find that useful. Small things are not less significant than big things, any more than a wheel is less significant than the cart.

[ewald]

Bruce - I can see working on details for 62.0, but the question in this thread was about either selling or renting the houseboat, which isn't a detail thing, in my view. In 62.4 one is facing danger, I don't think that's about details too, and in 62.5 the duke is hunting for food, which isn't either. I think the general theme of hexagram 62 is something else.

[bruce_g]

Bruce - I can see working on details for 62.0, but the question in this thread was about either selling or renting the houseboat, which isn't a detail thing, in my view. In 62.4 one is facing danger, I don't think that's about details too, and in 62.5 the duke is hunting for food, which isn't either. I think the general theme of hexagram 62 is something else.

Oh I dunno, working on details may fit. Gathering more information, looking more closely at the real estate and rental value of such live-in boats, becoming more aware of available properties, alternatives and such. These are all details which can be helpful to reaching a wise and informed decision for Carin’s friend. From Carin's description, she sounds a bit impulsive and not very frugal. Economy is very much a part of 62.

[ewald]

Gathering more information, looking more closely at the real estate and rental value of such live-in boats, becoming more aware of available properties, alternatives and such.
Gathering information, looking into, becoming aware - sounds like hex. 20 to me.

[bruce_g]

Gathering information, looking into, becoming aware - sounds like hex. 20 to me.

In general, I read Carin's friend's reading as saying "not now", not until you have more information, a sound plan for what to do with the boat money if it's sold, not to follow impulses which exceed practical function, to be content with what you have for now.

Which I think is pretty much what Willowfox has said.

[ewald]

However, Carin's friend's question was not about selling, but about keeping the houseboat and renting it. Sure the other option was selling, but I suspect that a separate reading was done for that option.

With a situation like selling or renting real-estate all kinds of hexagrams can apply. Here it was 62, but while contemplating several options hex. 20 may apply (this is what you were talking about). The "not now" fits fine with 20.0: "The ablution has been made, But not yet the offering." While waiting for the answer of someone else to a proposal, hex. 5 may apply. Etc.

I am looking for a general theme of hexagram 62 here, which is something different. I want something that applies to all lines in 62, and includes an appropriate translation of the hexagram name.

[bruce_g]

However, Carin's friend's question was not about selling, but about keeping the houseboat and renting it. Sure the other option was selling, but I suspect that a separate reading was done for that option.

With a situation like selling or renting real-estate all kinds of hexagrams can apply. Here it was 62, but while contemplating several options hex. 20 may apply (this is what you were talking about). The "not now" fits fine with 20.0: "The ablution has been made, But not yet the offering." While waiting for the answer of someone else to a proposal, hex. 5 may apply. Etc.

I am looking for a general theme of hexagram 62 here, which is something different.

Given the more or less 'should I keep the boat' question, I think we're saying the same thing, if I understand your answer correctly. You're saying "yes, it is good to stay", and Willowfox and I are saying "no, it is not good to move at this time".

Do you agree?

[ewald]

No, I think 62.2 is saying that the first radical option (selling the boat) is not taken, and the simpler option, renting the boat, is. 62.1 is in my view saying that there may be an indication of something going wrong. I admit that it's not clear to me, but like I extensively explained, I don't agree with Willowfox's and Wilhelm's idea about the meaning of it.

Anyway, my question was about a general theme of 62. An individual reading is not general.

What I want is being able to say: "62 is about .. .."
I want to do that similarly to "Hexagram 5 is about waiting," and "Hexagram 20 is about examining."

What seems incorrect is: "Hexagram 62 is about dealing with details." Like I said, there are several lines (see above) that that doesn't fit with. It also doesn't seem to fit with any of the hexagram names I have seen for 62:

- Small and beyond the ordinary
- Passing: Minor
- Small gets by
- Little Exceeding
- Small Surpassing
- Minor Superiority
- Preponderance of the Small
- Small Exceeding
- To Overstep Slightly/Lesser Top-Heaviness
- Small Fault
- Smallness in excess
- Small excesses
- Minor Mistakes
- Beyond the Small Pass
- Too Little

[jesed]

Given the more or less 'should I keep the boat' question, I think we're saying the same thing, if I understand your answer correctly. You're saying "yes, it is good to stay", and Willowfox and I are saying "no, it is not good to move at this time".

Hi Bruce... the theme of details and economy is important in 62, indeed. Even more, 62 points (in the tradition Wilhelm followed) to an extraordinary situation, and because the situation is extraordinary, we need extra atention to details. More than the "normal" atention, even if others could think than we are acting with exageration, or "wire"

That's why I wrote: "this is a good idea, even when others couls see it a little wire, IF your friend keeps extra care with small details."


In this, you and I are saying somehing similar. The answer is not a definitive yes or no, good or bad. But... "good IF you"....

More than "this is good or bad idea", is like: "this are the conditions that would allow this idea be a good idea"

Best wishes

[jesed]

Hi Ewald

Do you really cann't see "Detail" as something "too little".

Wow, then seems like your scope is "to little" ;)

Best wishes

[ewald]

No Jesed, I can't see "detail" as "too little".

I gather you guys get the detail thing from 62.0:
Small things may be done; great things should not be done.
The flying bird brings the message:
It is not well to strive upward,
It is well to remain below.
I'm quoting Wilhelm here, since I agree with him on the interpretation of this. He explains this with: "[...] one should not strive after lofty things but hold to lowly things." So Wilhelm is not saying this is about detail, but about smaller projects as opposed to bigger ones.

[jesed]

What is a detail (at the ligt of the BIG picture), then?

[ewald]

A detail is a small aspect of a situation.
So it is not a "lowly thing" or something.

[ewald]

As Balkin describes it:

"This is not a time to undertake something big or difficult. Conditions are not in your favor for significant accomplishment. You lack the strength and resources to achieve what you would like. Therefore, you need to understand the demands of the time and scale back your expectations. You should not expect great success, but that does not mean that there is nothing you can do."

[jesed]

Hi ewald

But I didn't ask about detail as "lowly thing", but as "too little", isn't?

About Wilhelm... if you read his entire comment, you would see that the fact of no great enterprises is present... but also the extra care to secure your own position during that time.

If you want to derivate the "attention to details" in Wilhelm's comment, you won't look at the comment on the Judgement (as you had done), but to a) the comment to the overall picture (the text before the Judgement), and b) the comment to the Image:

a) "But in the present hexagram it is the weak element that perforce must mediate with the outside world. If a man occupies a position of authority for which he is by nature really inadequate, extraordinary prudence is necessary."
b) "In the mountains, thunder seems much nearer; outside the mountains, it is less audible than the thunder of an ordinary storm. Thus the superior man derives an imperative from this image: he must always fix his eyes more closely and more directly on duty than does the ordinary man, even though this might make his behavior seem petty to the outside world. He is exceptionally conscientious in his actions."

The CONTEXT of those TEXTS (you won't find that context on dictionaries, of course) is an officer holding a position beyong his skills, in a time when failing in office implies death. But that doesn't implies "quit the job and search for a lower one"... but "pay more attention to details, in order to at least achieve a small success".


Now.. back to carin' friend. Talking about financial treatments.. if you had two options (selling versus renting).. wich one would be a minor transaction and wich one would be a mayor transaction?

Best wishes

[ewald]

I have already implied above that renting would be the minor thing, Jesed. And I already answered your question about detail and too little (sigh).

Could you quote the part of Wilhelm that you are referring to, Jesed? I can's seem to find it.

[jesed]

Hi Ewald

Exactly.. is what Bruce, Willowfox and I was talking about the concrete answer... you are saying quite the same than us ;)

Yes, you answered that you don't see detail as "too litlle", but when I asked what was then detail at the light of big picture, you changed "too little" for "lowly thing". So... a detail, within the Big Picture, is indeed too little. So, there is a conection between detail and too little (one of the names you have).

I had quoted those texts of Wilhelm. You can go to http://www.eclecticenergies.com/iching/hexagram.php?nr=62, and you would find them. :D

Best wishes

[ewald]

Yes, you answered that you don't see detail as "too litlle", but when I asked what was then detail at the light of big picture, you changed "too little" for "lowly thing". So... a detail, within the Big Picture, is indeed too little. So, there is a conection between detail and too little (one of the names you have). Well, it wasn't quite clear to me what this Big Picture had to do with it, and I interpreted your question as one about the meaning of detail. So I answered what detail is, and how that is irrelevant here, as this part from 62.0 I quoted isn't about it.

I can see that here and there some attention to detail may be needed. I would however in no way see this as a major aspect of hexagram 62. There are other hexagrams as well, where attention to detail is needed. Some that come to mind are 3, 4, 18, 20, 21, 29. I'd say that with some, if not all of these, detail is even more important (at least with 3, 20).

[rosada]

I think of 62 as "Leftover Details" It seems to me in this instance the selling of the main home was the the big event, and the Leftover Detail is what to do about the houseboat. Keep or sell? "62.1 The bird meets with misfortune through flying" suggests not having a clear feeling of how to handle this last detail. 62.2 discribes an unusual, but workable compromise. By renting the houseboat to her friend, the woman will be able postpone cutting all ties to the city until she knows if this is truly what she wants to do plus, because she is not renting it someone who is intending to live there, she will not be disrupting someone's life should she later decide she does wish to sell.
"34. Perseverance furthers" makes me think that while she may be renting out the boat just to buy herself a little more time, it may turn out to be such a positive arrangement the women decide to make it permanent.

[carin]

"Leftover Detail"

" . . suggests not having a clear feeling of how to handle this last detail"

" 62.2 discribes an unusual, but workable compromise"

"34. Perseverance furthers" makes me think that while she may be renting out the boat just to buy herself a little more time, it may turn out to be such a positive arrangement the women decide to make it permanent."


Very well said and very well read, too, Rosada, although it seems rather luxuriously , to call a houseboat a detail....but still, in this concept it is right to call it that way

I would like to learn, WHY "The bird meets with misfortune through flying" suggests not having a clear feeling of how to handle this last detail."


Do I understand 62 well, and is it all about "playing it safe"? (regarding economy)
Then I should say, my friend can ask herself, what feels more safe to you, sell or keep the houseboat?

[rosada]

I'm saying "The bird meets with misfortune through flying" means the person has no clear feeling for how to handle this situation because the whole hexagram is about how to handle situations you have no emotional attachment to. 61. Inner Truth was all about being in touch with one's inner feeling. That cycle ran it's course and now we are at it's opposite, situations where one has no inner connection. As Freud would say, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. She's all excited about her new home, and no longer has strong feelings about the houseboat. Yet she knows her feelings may change or the market may change, and it is costing money so she ought to do SOMETHING, but at this point she has no FEELING for what she should do. 62.1 She knows she ought to do something, but she has no intuitive guidance for what that something might be, so any move would probably be the wrong one, or take a lot more energy than if she really had a feeling for what she was trying to do. Anyway, then along comes 62.2 and your interest in the boat and that seems to be a very good compromise.

[willowfox]

"She asked the I Ching if it would be a good idea to do so.
And she got 62. Two moving lines: 1, and 2. >34"

"Do I understand 62 well, and is it all about "playing it safe"? (regarding economy)
Then I should say, my friend can ask herself, what feels more safe to you, sell or keep the houseboat?"

Your friend does not need to ask any more questions for the moment, the answer is quite clear, that she should hang on to the houseboat for the forseeable future. Like you said before, if she sells it, then she will spend the proceeds quickly, therefore better to keep it at least for a while. Like I said before, there is a financial problem attached to the sale of the boat. But maybe next year or later, everything will change, so I am not saying to keep the boat forever but only for a while and then review the situation at a later date, to sell or not to sell.

"I would like to learn, WHY "The bird meets with misfortune through flying" suggests not having a clear feeling of how to handle this last detail.""

"The flying bird meets with misfortune" because it is doing something that it should not be doing, ie advancing, in this case it would be her trying to sell the boat. "To have no place to rest the feet is a misfortune for a flying bird" suggests that she would regret selling the boat at the moment because it is about needing a base in the city. Perhaps at the moment she thinks that she no longer needs the boat but I have a feeling that she will again need to use it soon. Cutting all ties with the city is not the right thing for her to do at the present time. If there is a "last detail" here then it would be about the question to sell or keep the boat and that question has been answered.

"playing it safe"?
This is more about having a home in the city, then about financial affairs. Line 62.1 is quite specific about her needing a place to stay in the city. I think that any financial gain would only happen to the short term, in the long term selling the boat would turn into a financial loss for her in more ways than one.

[willowfox]

Hex 62.2 could have several meanings. The first one is that the both of you join together, stay together or work together on this houseboat. Letting you rent it would be a good option for her at the present time.

The text says," he/she does not go as far as the sovereign but does meet his minister".
Well, what could this mean? It could mean that she should show restraint and not try to sell the boat. It could also mean that she is seeking advice from high up, but again restrains herself by asking a minister. A minister is a person who gives advice, perhaps this minster is the minister for the interior or a minister for housing. It is not the sovereign (the boss) who gives advice, probably too busy, it is the lowly minister who gives her advice by telling her what the I Ching says for her to do about the houseboat.

Or it could mean that she does not go as far as the estate agent but talks to some more ordinary folk, who tell her to consult the I Ching.

[ewald]

I think of 62 as "Leftover Details" Do you think the danger one is facing in lines 3 and 4, the lack of resources in line 5, and the exceptional bad luck in line 6 are "leftover" things and "details?"

I can't see the leftover part, and I don't think that there is anything minor about these situations, so as to qualify for being called "details." I also don't see how these can be distinguished from other hexagrams in the I Ching by calling them "details."

[ewald]

I think I know where the attention to detail thing that several here mention is coming from. It's from the latter part of 62.0: It is not suitable to be above,
it is suitable to be below.
When you are above, you see the big picture, when you are below, you see the details. So that is advice for 62.0 (the Judgment).

Apparently, people think that what's in the Judgment, goes for all lines in the hexagram. I don't think that is the case.

Does the "Great good fortune" from the Judgment, goes also for line 6 of hexagram 62? Wilhelm has for 62.6: " Misfortune. This means bad luck and injury." In the Judgment is "Perseverance furthers," but is that advice also applicable in that line 6? Are the small things that are possible in the Judgment also possible when you have been injured in line 3?

No. The Judgment is applicable when there are no changing lines. The advice (and prognostication) in it (like the attention to detail of being below here) is only applicable then. It is not when there are changing lines.

Only the hexagram name (which is part of the Judgment) is applicable, as a theme, throughout the hexagram.

[bruce_g]

I think I know where the attention to detail thing that several here mention is coming from. It's from the latter part of 62.0: It is not suitable to be above,
it is suitable to be below.
When you are above, you see the big picture, when you are below, you see the details. So that is advice for 62.0 (the Judgment).

Apparently, people think that what's in the Judgment, goes for all lines in the hexagram. I don't think that is the case.



Ewald,

If I’m one of the several, I think I’ve said already that ‘attention to details’ didn’t come from Wilhelm. I didn’t find the work to be especially authentic and I stopped using it years ago. But there were a few items which rang true to me; not based on literal translation but on common experience. 62 was one of them. It took awhile for it to sink into me, but since I’ve found no other hexagram – not even 20, as you suggest – which speaks to “attention to details” as simply or as clearly as 62, the meaning works for me. I never said “attention to details” encloses the meaning of 62 into a tight fist, but all the little meanings of 62 add up to it nonetheless.

I respect the diligence in your work, and your tenacity to hold to accurate translation, and also that you stand firmly on two feet to defend your conviction. My dawdling has no such authenticity. But I had a simple experience, which moved me deeply, and to that experience Yi have me 62. I gnawed that bone for several days, and from that came this meaning:

62 Small

In times when great things don’t call us out into the world, we make do with what we have. If we are smart and flexible, we’ll find a suitable means to exist.

[rosada]

62.1 Although she isn't as informed as he, Rosada decides to respond to ewald's request for more discussion of 62. Silly girl.

62.2 Her ideas aren't orthodox, but the questioner seems pleased with them.

62.3 Ewald however, throws a hissy fit. Oops.

62.4 Rosada wisely chooses to remain silent.

62.5 Bruce steps in with a very workable interpretation ewald should be content with.

62.6 Rosada foolishly ignors this assist and posts again anyway. Some people never learn.

[ewald]

Bruce
Thanks for that. I've added your description of 62 to my notes.

Rosada
62.0 Ewald decides to work with what there is.

[rosada]

Terrific, LOL Ewald!

In studying 62 I am reminded of the old story of the sage being questioned about his recent connection with Inner Truth.

Seeker: What was your life like before you attained Enlightenment?
Sage: Oh, it was terrible! Chop wood, carry water.
Seeker: And what is it like now that you have attained Enlightenment?
Sage: Oh, it is wonderful! Chop wood, carry water.

[lightofreason]

62.6 Rosada foolishly ignors this assist and posts again anyway. Some people never learn.

62.7 - Rosada does not turn to use the IC to flesh out 62, insisting on using the ad hoc perspectives of dilettantes!:mischief: . tsk tsk. ;)

The problems with sticking to 10th century BC perspectives is they are limiting due to the ad hoc, local context, developing of the traditional work.

The IC comes out of our brains as a species and as such reflects the properties and methods of such operating in a local context - 10th century BC China.

Now we can do better in that we understand the properties and methods of self-referencing (used to form the hexagrams etc) and so get a spectrum of the general, universal, nature of that the traditional 62 represents.

Given the spectrum it is possible to flesh out 62, or any hexagram for that matter, by direct reference to the IC itself.

Ewald's focus is not on the universals but on trying to 'return' to a pure 10th century BC perspective. Obviously a labour of love and no more - to do more he too will have to move into the 21st century AD ;-) but I dont think he wants to do that since it will take him wide and in doing so take him away from his focus.

Given the work on self-referencing, does this make the continued endevours of people to try re-translate the original, traditional, material a waste of time? Not really. What it does is marginalise such endevours, make them local, make them 'academic' exercises to be discussed etc in academic journals and so 'historical' at best in that any 'new' material MUST include understanding of properties and methods of self-referencing.

Oh yes -- the spectrum of 62 (what you dont understand - ask):

00 :: (02) : What is this hexagrams's potential form? :: 62
01 :: (24) : How does this hexagram 'start', express 'beginning'? :: 55
02 :: (07) : How does this hexagram express uniformity, establishment of? :: 32
03 :: (19) : How does this hexagram express approaching the 'high'; defer to the 'low'? :: 34
04 :: (15) : How does this hexagram level things out, keep words close to facts? :: 16
05 :: (36) : How does this hexagram protect its 'light' when not its time? :: 51
06 :: (46) : How does this hexagram become more entangled with something/someone? :: 40
07 :: (11) : How does this hexagram balance/harmonise, mediate? :: 54
08 :: (16) : How does this hexagram express foresight/planning? :: 15
09 :: (51) : How does this hexagram express surprise, enlightenment, shock? :: 36
10 :: (40) : How does this hexagram express tension release through relaxing structure? :: 46
11 :: (54) : How does this hexagram expend early energy, imaturity? :: 11
12 :: (62) : How does this hexagram express overacting to establish unconditional loyalty? :: 2
13 :: (55) : How does this hexagram deal with abundance/overflowing? :: 24
14 :: (32) : How does this hexagram express commitment? :: 7
15 :: (34) : How does this hexagram actively invigorate others? :: 19
16 :: (08) : How does this hexagram passively attract? :: 31
17 :: (03) : How does this hexagram 'sprout'? :: 49
18 :: (29) : How does this hexagram assert containment/control? :: 28
19 :: (60) : How does this hexagram standardise? :: 43
20 :: (39) : How does this hexagram obstruct, go against, stand up to, the flow? :: 45
21 :: (63) : How does this hexagram complete, 'get it right'? :: 17
22 :: (48) : Where does this hexagram get its nutrition, what sustains it, keeps it going? :: 47
23 :: (05) : How does this hexagram wait for opportunity to come? :: 58
24 :: (45) : How does this hexagram celebrate its 'faith'? :: 39
25 :: (17) : How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? :: 63
26 :: (47) : How does this hexagram integrate with the context, be it by choice or otherwise? :: 48
27 :: (58) : How does this hexagram express itself intensely, self-reflect? :: 5
28 :: (31) : How does this hexagram 'woo', express restrained enticement? :: 8
29 :: (49) : How does this hexagram reveal, unmask? :: 3
30 :: (28) : How does this hexagram express excess, go beyond what is required? :: 29
31 :: (43) : How does this hexagram 'seed', spread the word? :: 60
32 :: (23) : How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat? :: 56
33 :: (27) : What is the basic, skelatal form of this hexagram, The mud from which it has emerged? :: 30
34 :: (04) : How does this hexagram learn social skills? :: 50
35 :: (41) : How does this hexagram achieve clarity, concentration, distillation? :: 14
36 :: (52) : How does this hexagram express blocking, discernment? :: 35
37 :: (22) : What does this hexagram look like, how does it present itself to the outside? :: 21
38 :: (18) : How does this hexagram correct corruption, express that correction? :: 64
39 :: (26) : How does this hexagram express 'holding firm' to traditions? :: 38
40 :: (35) : How does this hexagram bring something into the 'light'? :: 52
41 :: (21) : How does this hexagram resolve problems? :: 22
42 :: (64) : How does this hexagram remain 'open', mis-sequence? :: 18
43 :: (38) : How does this hexagram 'mirror', deal with opposition? :: 26
44 :: (56) : How does this hexagram demonstrate conditional loyalty; loyalty at a distance? :: 23
45 :: (30) : How does this hexagram express guidance/direction setting? :: 27
46 :: (50) : How does this hexagram express conversion of the raw to the cooked, transformation? :: 4
47 :: (14) : How does this hexagram manage from the centre? Direct operations? Push ideology? :: 41
48 :: (20) : How does this hexagram elicit admiration and so invigorate others passively? :: 33
49 :: (42) : How does this hexagram reflect augmentation? :: 13
50 :: (59) : How does this hexagram make things clear, dispell illusions? lift the fog? :: 44
51 :: (61) : How does this hexagram express empathy? yielding, soft core, hard exterior? :: 1
52 :: (53) : How does this hexagram express gradual development, maturity? :: 12
53 :: (37) : How does this hexagram reflect rigid structure as a form of tension release? :: 25
54 :: (57) : How does this hexagram cultivate and become influencial? :: 6
55 :: (09) : How does this hexagram express making small gains to be noticed? :: 10
56 :: (12) : How does this hexagram neutralise attacks on its core beliefs? :: 53
57 :: (25) : How does this hexagram stand up to say its piece, ignoring consequences, disentangle? :: 37
58 :: (06) : How does this hexagram compromise, meet half way? :: 57
59 :: (10) : How does this hexagram traverse a path carefully? :: 9
60 :: (33) : How does this hexagram draw-in its enemies, competitively entice? :: 20
61 :: (13) : How does this hexagram express association with the likeminded? :: 42
62 :: (44) : How does this hexagram persuade/seduce? :: 59
63 :: (01) : How does this hexagram express singlemindedness, competitiveness? :: 61

[ewald]

I have no idea whether this is related to 62, but anyway.

I'm living over 6 years now in this appartment, and strangely, I've never seen any gnats here. A couple of days ago, I felt an itch on my right calf. I didn't pay much attention to it, but then I felt another itch on my right leg, and another. There were several red lumps on it. Some time later, another itch. Today there were 7 or 8 spots, all on my right leg, several still itching annoyingly.

This morning I suddenly heard a buzzing near my left ear, and I immediately tried to get the little animal away by waving my hand near it. At first it didn't go. I moved a bit away and spotted the gnat. It sluggishly flew around.

I got a newspaper and saw it flying sluggishly to the ceiling. It must have been totally drunk and heavy from all the blood that it took from me. I hit it with the paper, and missed. Slowly it flew to the wall. A bigger than usual gnat, it's body all dark from my blood. Then I got it.

I still feel these itches on my right leg.

[bruce_g]

lol

Ewald, that makes me think of 9 - taming the little buggers. But treating the wounds or applying insect repellant to prevent future bites sounds like 62. But for the bug, definitely 21-27. :D

[ewald]

Ah, that further clarifies 62 for me.

[nicky_p]

I still feel these itches on my right leg.

Ewald,
Neat alcohol or vinegar will draw the bite out and take the itch away. Although neat alcohol smells better that walkin round smelling of vinegar! :)

[ewald]

Thanks, Nicky.
Unfortunately I don't have either here, at the moment.

[jesed]

Hi Ewald

I think I know where the attention to detail thing that several here mention is coming from. It's from the latter part of 62.0:
It is not suitable to be above,
it is suitable to be below.

Wrong again. i had already told you, that to derivate "atention to detail" from Wilhelm's text, you WON'T see the judgement (62.0), but the comment to the overall picture (before the Judgement in Wilhelm's text, Book I) and the Image's text and comment.

I even suggested you to see your own website to check that ;)

But yes, as you said, this is only about YOU DON'T SEE (you don't want to see?)

Best wishes

[jesed]

Only the hexagram name (which is part of the Judgment) is applicable, as a theme, throughout the hexagram.

a) You recognized that only the Name is applicable as a theme
b) you recognized that "Too little" is one posible meaning of the Name
c) you recognized that "detail" can be related to "too little"
But you don't want to accept detail as theme... so, when I asked if detail is "too little", you avoided the issue with "detail is not lowly"

By the way...talking about the Hexagram name: Bradford's Glosary includes "in detail" for Xiao3