Memorizing the I Ching. Hexagram 14. Ta Yu / Possession in Great Measure

[rosada]

THE JUDGEMENT
POSSESSION IN GREAT MEASURE
Supreme success.

The two trigrams indicate that strength and clarity unite. Possession in great measure is determined by fate and accords with the time.

How is it possible that the weak line has power to hold the strong line fast and to possess them? It is done by virtue of unselfisn modesty.

The time is favorable - a time of strength within, clarity and culture without. Power is expressing itself in a graceful and controlled way. This brings supreme success and wealth.

[dobro]

"Possession in Great Measure". Yeah, right. Why dress it up? It's Big Having, right? lol

[lightofreason]

IC+

14 Possession in Great Measure
Directing from the Centre
In a context of perseverence we utilise setting directions (an ideology)

"TA YU -

TA : big, noble, important, very; orient the will toward a self-imposed goal, impose direction; ability to lead or guide your life...

YU : be in possession of, have, own; possessions; opposite of lack WU" ERANOS p215

Some pairs:

In the binary sequence hexagram 14 pairs with hexagram 34.
This pair reflects a core sense of motivating, be it in the form of unconditional inspiration from the 'great', hexagram 34, or the particular, and so conditional, direction-setting from the centre, hexagram 14.

In the binary sequence hexagram 14 opposes hexagram 08.
This pairing reflects a passive form of control, as in a collective at the level of being 'cultish' (hexagram 08) versus a more active form of control sourced at the centre of things (hexagram 14). As such hexagram 08 is focused on issues of devotion used to establish control versus hexagram 14 with a focus on perseverence used to establish a sense of direction and so of development.

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the HEAVEN trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 14, the focus upon being the centre of guidence, source of direction-setting, 'opposes' hexagram 05 where we wait. More so, the strong assertion of direction of 14 is reflected in a more balanced format by the focus of waiting and 'integrating' reflected in 05.

In the traditional sequence hexagram 14 pairs with hexagram 13.
IMPOSE DIRECTION:

13 : impose directions through associations - passive; 13 loose associations comes out of a context decribed by hexagram 31 - wooing, restrained structuring

14 : impose directions through associations - active; 14 centered, directing associations comes out of a context described by hexagram 32 - strong commitment

In the traditional sequence hexagram 14 opposes hexagram 51.

The generic properties of hexagram 14 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 34 with the generic properties of hexagram 32.

Here the mixing of commitment (32) with a sense of invigorating (34) is reflected in the properties of hexagram 14.

Spectrum.... (fine hilary fine ... http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x101111.html - see the heading marked 'line positions'. .. and so infrastructure is described by analogy to 31. etc etc )

[frank_r]

On top fire below heaven, the same as the postions in the King Wen en Fu Shi sequence.
It's the season of summer in full glory.

Because heaven is atracted to earth, it gets yin to express itself.

Heaven on earth is like fire, the sun is the expression of heaven. Without the yin inside the fire, there is nothing what can be physical. The expression of heaven is like heat in the summer.

It's like human dignity,it has only one yin line, the 5th the King line, which one is of course the ruler of the hexagram. Both heaven and fire tend to go upwards, but the ruler of the 5th line stays in contact with the yang line on the second position, the line which is the closest to our deepest inner yin. The one which keeps us on earth.

[rosada]

THE IMAGE
Fire in heaven above:
The image of POSSESSION IN GREAT MEASURE.
thus the superior man curbs evil and furthers good,
And thereby obeys the benevolent will of heaven.

[ewald]

I don't think this hexagram is about possession at all, actually. While you can translate 有 with "having" and "possession," it often means something like "there is" in the Yi. That's about "presence."

As that fits better with the overall theme of hex. 14, I have "Noble Presence" for the hexagram name. "Great Presence" would be possible too.

[lightofreason]

I don't think this hexagram is about possession at all, actually. While you can translate 有 with "having" and "possession," it often means something like "there is" in the Yi. That's about "presence."

As that fits better with the overall theme of hex. 14, I have "Noble Presence" for the hexagram name. "Great Presence" would be possible too.

I agree - the vibe I get is reflected in the sharing of space wih 34 - there is 'someone' (presence) leading things. In 34 the focus is on the leader performing unconditional invigoration, motivation. In 14 the leader is more focused, more particular in direction etc (and so ideology). With that attitude one can 'benefit' - but at the same time there is the emotional focus on issues covering anger (persevering, singlemindedness etc) context in which is operating issues of acceptance.

as 08 covers PASSIVE attraction to a court/king in general, here it is active.
as 20 covers PASSIVE attraction is to a particular person/thing, in 34 it is more active.

the infrastructure of 14, its skeltal form, is described by analogy to 32 and so a general sense of commitment, focus etc and that serves as a clue to what we are dealing with.

Chris.

[lightofreason]

IC+ image

"[With perseverence comes direction]. [Power through direction] : [Forceful & Goal Directed] Fire resides above heaven : Possessing the Great. One terminates hate to spread[/show] improvement, [Could be a political move] and uses yielding to 'God' to let go of individual destiny (one's own fate). [To explicitly (publicly) put one's fate in god's hands rather than to retain some control. Politically useful as it enables the denial of responsibility]".

There is a focus on a charismatic type here, as there is in its pair member - 34.

A problem in hexagrams with heaven as base is the possibility of hubris.

Chris.

[rosada]

14.1
Nine at the beginning means:
No relationship with what is harmful;
There is no blame in this.
If one remains concious of the difficulty,
One remains without blame.

Great possession that is still at the beginnings and that has not yet been challenged brings no blame, since there has been no opportunity for mistakes. Yet there are many difficulties to be overcome. It is only by remaining conscious of these difficulties that one can keep inwardly free of possible arrogance and wastefulness, and thus in principle
overcome all cause for blame.
-Wilhelm.

[rosada]

Advice to myself:
Don't spend money on what you don't need.
It's not your responcibility to pay the shop keeper's rent!
Besides, you must remember you have your own expenses coming up.
Thus you'll have no problems.

[dobro]

I don't think this hexagram is about possession at all, actually. While you can translate 有 with "having" and "possession," it often means something like "there is" in the Yi. That's about "presence."

As that fits better with the overall theme of hex. 14, I have "Noble Presence" for the hexagram name. "Great Presence" would be possible too.

You're right about 'there is', but I'm not sure I agree with your applying it to 14. My understanding is that when it means 'there is' instead of 'having', it's followed by an object, like 'having direction' which can be rendered 'there's a direction'.

Also, I'm *really* into pairs of hexagrams when it comes to comparing and contrasting meanings - it seems to me that a pair shares a common theme on the one hand (sometimes it's a polarity that's shared) and expresses a distinction within that them. 14 is paired with 13. 13 is about uniting with others; 14's about uniting with a great orientation or idea.

[ewald]

You're right about 'there is', but I'm not sure I agree with your applying it to 14. My understanding is that when it means 'there is' instead of 'having', it's followed by an object, like 'having direction' which can be rendered 'there's a direction'. As there is no object following it, it means "presence" instead of "there is." When "there is" something, something is "present."

"Having" is a special case of "presence." It is a presence that is belonging to someone.

I don't see how the theme of this hexagram is about "having." There are no issues here of greed, acquiring objects, or objects belonging to someone. 14 is about being present in a certain way, a "great" or "noble" way.

[ewald]

13.1 Are you sure? ;)

[trojan]

As there is no object following it, it means "presence" instead of "there is." When "there is" something, something is "present."

"Having" is a special case of "presence." It is a presence that is belonging to someone.

I don't see how the theme of this hexagram is about "having." There are no issues here of greed, acquiring objects, or objects belonging to someone. 14 is about being present in a certain way, a "great" or "noble" way.

Having doesn't have to be connected with greed. That is to narrow the sense of the idea of having. I equate 14 with being full, having in the sense of being complete, and this can be reflected on a need fulfilled on a material level. Can't deny what happens on a material level can hugely affect one.

[ewald]

Having doesn't have to be connected with greed. Indeed. I never claimed that. But if a hexagram would be about "having," it could be one of the issues coming up.

I equate 14 with being full, having in the sense of being complete I equate fullness and being complete with being present. Perhaps having read a lot of Almaas has something to do with that.

this can be reflected on a need fulfilled on a material level Can you indicate one of the lines in #14 that is about "having" on a material level?

[ewald]

I think it's easy for someone coming from modern Western society, with it's obsession with "having" and "possession," to take "having" as a universal concept. But it's a bias. I don't think an equal obsession was there in Zhou times.

[trojan]

I equate fullness and being complete with being present. Perhaps having read a lot of Almaas has something to do with that.

Yes so do I

Can you indicate one of the lines in #14 that is about "having" on a material level?

Why do you ask me to do this :confused: I am not saying any part of hex 14 or its lines is about having on a material level only, but if one asks Yi a question about material possessions then theres no reason the lines should not relate to them.
Time and time over I happen to have received this hexagram with regard to a fortunate outcome over an expenditure that has some import in my life, that affects my life, such as my vehicle, my property etc. Not always, sometimes I feel it relates to my being in possession of a situation inasmuch as being sovereign in it, my will being effective in it, that is why I think there is the warning in 14 not to abuse the 'having' you are in the position of experiencing.

You said "I don't see how the theme of this hexagram is about having. There are no issues here of greed, acquiring objects....". I think you object to the word 'having' because you relate it only to material having, so you want to change the word 'having' to something else thats more fitting for you ? I just never saw the term 'having' as only relating to material things in the first place.

Also of course i would say there is quite a strong warning against greed in 14, not necessarily always of objects but any kind of possessing, line 3 for example saying how a prince can offer up his blessings, a petty man cannot (in Wilhelm).

[ewald]

Not always, sometimes I feel it relates to my being in possession of a situation inasmuch as being sovereign in it, my will being effective in it, that is why I think there is the warning in 14 not to abuse the 'having' you are in the position of experiencing. I prefer to express that by talking about being present in a situation, as opposed to being in possession of it. Being in possession of a situation to me suggests having almost total control over it, being in charge, and I don't think that is the case in #14.

I think you object to the word 'having' because you relate it only to material having, so you want to change the word 'having' to something else thats more fitting for you ? I just never saw the term 'having' as only relating to material things in the first place. I object to it because it suggests that #14 is about "having" in general, so ownership, and about material having in particular, and I don't see that expressed in the lines. I want to have a translation of the hexagram name that is less ambiguous, so doesn't suggest aspects that aren't there (like this being about ownership).

Also of course i would say there is quite a strong warning against greed in 14, not necessarily always of objects but any kind of possessing, line 3 for example saying how a prince can offer up his blessings, a petty man cannot (in Wilhelm). I don't think 14.3 is as much warning against greed, as it is against not giving (stingyness). Perhaps one can see that as being on the theme of "having." That is the only line that I can see having something to do with "having," though, which might be because I do translate several lines quite differently from Wilhelm (I for instance don't see anything that can be translated with "neighbor" or "difference" in 14.4).

[lightofreason]

IC+

14.Line 1
"Devoid of the ability to properly communicate is a hindrance but not harmful. It just makes work that much harder. No blame."

[rosada]

14.2
Nine in the second place means:
A big wagon for loading.
One may undertake something.
No blame.

Great possession consists not only in the quantity of goods at one's disposal, but, first and foremost, in their mobility and utility, for then they can be used in undertakings, and we remain free of embarrassment and mistakes. The big wagon, which will carry a heavy load and in which one can journey far, means that there are at hand able helpers who give their support and are equal to the task. One can load great responcibility upon such persons, and this is necessary in important undertakings.
-Wilhelm

[rosada]

I apologize for being so sporatic in the posting of the lines here lately. I will be back home Tuesday so hopefully then I'll be able to be more reliable.
Meanwhile I've been meaning to hang one of my mother's water colors in the hall at her senior residence. It's been stored under her bed for years giving pleasure to no one. Today a friend of mine brought over a hammer and with the help of this supportive friend the painting is up. This seems like an example of 14.2. Although she painted and possessed the painting, it wasn't a Possession in Great Measure until we had the tools and the help to display it properly.

[ewald]

14.2
Being Present in a Noble way means that one makes available the means that one has to help others if necessary.

[ewald]

14.1
Being Present in a Noble way means that one refrains from harmful actions, and when one does get involved in something harmful, that one does take the trouble to back away from that.

[rosada]

These clear simple statements are very helpful, ewald. I hope you'll continue them.

Thinking about possible catch phrases for 14.2:

You can't take it with you.

Faith can move mountains.

When I finally got it all together,
I forgot where I put it.

(Intending to post 14.3 later on today.)

[lightofreason]

Line 2
"One has the tools to help in acquiring wealth (e.g. a wagon to carry it all, people to supervise it) but what is infact needed is a goal or direction to take. No blame."

with/from directing (14) comes guiding/direction-setting (30)

From the XOR realm, line position 2 equates with the 07-ness of a hexagram, here that 'uniforming/uniformity' is in the form of some ideology that acts to 'uniform' the individual(s).

[rosada]

14.3
Nine in the third place maens:
A prince offers it to the son of Heaven.
A petty man cannot do this.

A magnanimous, liberal minded man should not regard what he possesses as his exclusive personal property, but should place it at the disposal of the ruler or the people at large. In so doing he takes the right attitude towards his possessions, which as personal property can never endure. A petty man is incapable of this. He is harmed by great possessions, because instead of sacrificing them, he would keep them for himself.
-Wilhelm

[lightofreason]

Line 3
"One takes advantage of a success by trying to move towards a higher (central) position. Unsolicited social climbing. Be wary."

with/from directing (14) comes mirroring (38)

social climbing includes letting other see something in you not there - you reflect 'them' and so get interpretted as if one of 'them'.

[ewald]

14.3
Being in a unique position to do something for someone, that others are not able to do.


These are some threads where there is something in the descriptions of the querents regarding the meaning of 14.3:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=1480
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=2112
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3336
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=496
I don't really see anything there that warrants the view that 14.3 is about self-sacrifice or not being stingy.

[bruce_g]

there’s a dollar in my pocket
someone’s hungry so
the dollar goes to feed
it ain’t what ya got
that makes you rich or poor
but that it meets a need

you can never own what ya have
unless it’s really yours
and if it is
ya never can be poor

[listener]

INteresting that today there was an article online about the man who has been a "secret Santa" for years, giving away over a million dollars in random bills to people who were in need. He was once broke, homeless, desperate, and went to eat in a diner, then claimed he had "lost" his wallet and couldn't pay. The waitress called the owner over who went up to the man, handed him a twenty, and said "I think you dropped this on the way in." a petty man could not do this
Years later, this man went back to the owner of the diner and handed him $20,000 .

[rosada]

"Possessions as private property can never endure." Been spending my days sorting through my mother's belongings. Who will take care of these cherished possessions now?
Letters and pictures from forgotten friends and relatives. They weren't my world. As her memory fades they lose all meaning.

[rosada]

Nine in the fourth place means:
He makes a difference
Between himself and his neighbor.
No blame.

[lightofreason]

IC+ 14.4

Line 4
"One's nature is interpreted as being forceful and overbearing. One should be weary of outshining one's ruler [i.e. give way]."

with/from directing (14) comes holding firm (26) - the imposition of 'tried and true', traditional, historical, perspectives can be an irritation. The comment reflects the hierarchic focus on the relation of minister (line 4) to king (line 5).

Chris.

[ewald]

Has anyone any idea how Wilhelm got to his translation of 14.4? I can't see anything in the Chinese that might be translated as "difference" or "neighbor."匪 其 彭 ，
旡 咎 。
匪 - is not
其 - this, that, his, her, its, their, one's, our, my
彭 - proud / flourishing, plenty, much / sound of drum / "Old Peng," a mythological figure in classical Chinese literature, said to have lived several hundred years.

彭 is obviously crucial for the meaning of this line. I can think of meanings of 14.4 that make sense with any of the translations for it. I have found only one forum thread where something is said regarding this line, but it's not conclusive.
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=699

For the time being I have chosen 彭 to mean "pride," so that the meaning of the line is something like "Acknowledging something one isn't proud of."

[bruce_g]

Ewald,

I think the “He makes a difference between himself and his neighbor” in Wilhelm expresses the elements of “pride”, in that there’s a temptation to imitate those around you, who have some sort of wealth. You begin to act as they do, which is prideful. I know you don’t see 14 as possession, but this is how I see it. Comparison with those around you who have more than you do, is also a related meaning: the grass is greener type of thing. So it becomes necessary to redefine yourself (and your worth) apart from how you see others – no blame. No bragging rights either.

[ewald]

Hi Bruce - I see being proud as valuing one's own accomplishment. Pride is being proud like that, but it can also mean (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pride) having an inordinately high opinion of one's dignity, importance, merit, or superiority.
Either way, I have difficulty seeing how pride can bring the temptation to imitate those around you.

[lightofreason]

Eranos gives:

In-no-way one's preponderance
without blame

preponderance covers P'eng as "forceful, dominant; overbearing, encroaching. The ideogram: drum beats, dominating sound.

My interpretation covers a relationship of this bright, arftul, minister with the king in that the interpretation gives a warning of being SEEN this way (even if not) and so to be wary

Chris.

[martin]

Legge uses the word 'resources' in his translation of line 4 ('its subject keeping his great resources under restraint') and this makes me wonder if 'great resources' is perhaps a better name for hex 14 than 'great possessions'.
Or maybe 'being resourceful'?

Resources can be material (money, land, etcetera) or immaterial (talent, smartness, etc) and the emphasis is not so much on 'having' them as on how they can be used.
It seems that in line 3 there is a tendency to confuse these two, i.e. one is tempted to 'sit on' ones resources instead of using them. But in line 4 postponing their use for a while is the right thing to do.

[bruce_g]

Resources, domain, possession, assets, presence - what’s the difference, aside from semantics? And imo, the same goes for context. It can pertain to material wealth, inner riches or resources, all depending on the context. When a meaning is reduced to only one acceptable word, the focus of context is equally limited. Since - as Brad has pointed out here in the past - hex 14 represents 1/64 of all there is, the meaning is too large to be reduced to a singular narrow definitive English word. Take your pick and run with it.

[ewald]

The character that Legge translates with "resources," and Bradford with "domain," is 彭, which in the Yi only appears in 14.4. The character 有 from the hexagram name is a different one. It appears in 104 lines in the Yi, in most instances meaning "there is." So it kind of surprises me that Martin and Bruce want to have one particular translation of 彭as a hexagram theme.

The theme of "resources" is in my opinion already covered in 48. The Well (and also in 27, if you like).

[bruce_g]

So it kind of surprises me that Martin and Bruce want to have one particular translation...

:confused: Thought I was saying just the opposite. I'm for opening it up not narrowing it down. Yes, of course it needs to be focused enough to lead in a direction, not in 360 degrees. 1/64 of the whole human/universal pie is a mighty big piece.

Same or similar word-idea meanings cross over to different hexagrams, i.e. 14-48. There is such thing as over discrimination. Galling limitation, so to speak; and it doesn't always have to be arrived at through a literal word distinction or some other known system of discrimination.

[martin]

the meaning is too large to be reduced to a singular narrow definitive English word. Take your pick and run with it

Of course. You cannot reduce the meaning of a hexagram to one word or even 10 or 100 words. But some words are better than others and the English names of hexagrams are important for Yi users. They should at least point more or less in the right direction.
Depending on what you pick (for example 'possessions' or 'presence' ) you might run to very different places, like NYC and the Arizona desert. :D

[martin]

Crossed posts. I do understand your point. :)

[ewald]

:confused: Thought I was saying just the opposite. I'm for opening it up not narrowing it down. Sure. I wasn't particularly precise in expressing my point here.

I don't think "resources" is really part of the general theme of hex. 14. Perhaps "having," as a special case of "presence" can in some instances be in this context, but "resources" as yet another special case (of "having") is one or two steps too far for me.

I do think "presence" is pretty broad, and pretty much covers its part of the (two character) hexagram name of 14.

[martin]

The character that Legge translates with "resources," and Bradford with "domain," is 彭, which in the Yi only appears in 14.4. The character 有 from the hexagram name is a different one. It appears in 104 lines in the Yi, in most instances meaning "there is." So it kind of surprises me that Martin and Bruce want to have one particular translation of 彭as a hexagram theme.

The theme of "resources" is in my opinion already covered in 48. The Well (and also in 27, if you like).

I didn't mean to say that the word 'resources' is a literal translation of characters in the text of the Yi. My idea was only that it covers the meaning of the hexagram better than 'possessions'. So it's more like a free translation.
The feel of 48 is very different. Resources - maybe yes, but more basic, satisfying basic needs? Also less easy to access ...

[martin]

I think 'presence' fits also, btw. A kind of royal presence maybe.
If the king or queen disguises as a beggar one can still feel and see his or her 'presence'. It's an inner quality.
Is that what you mean?

[ewald]

It's in part what I mean.

Another way of wording my hexagram name would be "Being there in a noble way," or a "great way."

The nobleness/greatness is in the sense of being magnanimous (http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=magnanimous&action=Search+OMD).

The "presence" is about not going away from the reality of a situation, where that would be easier (for instance, 14.1 not going away from the realization that one is causing harm, 14.3 not going away while one is the only one in a position to do something, 14.4 not dismissing the notion that there is something one isn't proud of, etc).

[trojan]

The thing with 'presence' though is its a given isn't it, I mean if you 'are' then you are 'present' ,cannot but be so. If you are meaning 'presence' in another sense, as in presence with the idea of dignity or nobility then you'd have to qualify the word 'presence' to show thats how you mean it. There isn't any time an aware entity doesn't have presence is there (?) and some would say even what we might think of as inert has presence.

How do you mean 'prescence' if not simply 'being' or 'awareness' ? Can you give an idea of when 'presence' is not ?

[trojan]

Hi Bruce - I see being proud as valuing one's own accomplishment. Pride is being proud like that, but it can also mean (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pride) having an inordinately high opinion of one's dignity, importance, merit, or superiority.
Either way, I have difficulty seeing how pride can bring the temptation to imitate those around you.

Backtracking I'm not sure why you can't see pride would make one try to imitate those around one. Perhaps when you compare what you have, what you are doing with what you seeing others having or doing you feel inadequate (your pride hurts) and think you must strive to be like them. Line 4 advises in my view to hold true to your self and not go running after things because you think you should be like others.

[ewald]

How do you mean 'prescence' if not simply 'being' or 'awareness' ? Can you give an idea of when 'presence' is not ?
I guess we crossed posts, as I just explained.

[trojan]

Resources can be material (money, land, etcetera) or immaterial (talent, smartness, etc) and the emphasis is not so much on 'having' them as on how they can be used.
It seems that in line 3 there is a tendency to confuse these two, i.e. one is tempted to 'sit on' ones resources instead of using them. But in line 4 postponing their use for a while is the right thing to do.


This interpretation of line 3, that it may involve the temptation to sit on ones resources makes alot of sense to me. After not having a car for a long while I asked about one i wanted to buy and got 14,3. I didn't really understand because I thought it meant I needed to put it at others disposal - but that didn't fit at all, wasn't practicable nor did anyone need it. Now I think it was about me fretting about spending the money, wanting to hold on to it. BTW great buy (so far)no regrets yet :D

I think thats what I've often missed with line 3, I always think its about giving out to others, but I think it can also be about giving to oneself. One can be stingy with oneself afterall more than with others sometimes.

[ewald]

Backtracking I'm not sure why you can't see pride would make one try to imitate those around one. Perhaps when you compare what you have, what you are doing with what you seeing others having or doing you feel inadequate (your pride hurts) and think you must strive to be like them. Okay, I see the reasoning.

You can arrive at the notion, as you say, that your pride hurts when you compare yourself to others. But that's not a necessity. If your pride is about being the best and superiority, it is, but you can also be proud of something that is an accomplishment while you know that many others are better than you at it. If you're bad at math, for instance, but you manage, with a lot of work, to pass the math exams you thought would be next to impossible to pass, you can be proud of that accomplishment. Someone else passing exams with even more perseverance won't matter to you, you're just rightfully proud of your accomplishment.

[trojan]

Okay, I see the reasoning.

You can arrive at the notion, as you say, that your pride hurts when you compare yourself to others. But that's not a necessity. If your pride is about being the best and superiority, it is, but you can also be proud of something that is an accomplishment while you know that many others are better than you at it. If you're bad at math, for instance, but you manage, with a lot of work, to pass the math exams you thought would be next to impossible to pass, you can be proud of that accomplishment. Someone else passing exams with even more perseverance won't matter to you, you're just rightfully proud of your accomplishment.

Yes thats the whole point of what I feel 14,4 is about, not to worry and compare how you are with others, measure your accomplishments by your own standards (as in the maths example you give) or you will get lost.

But you disagree this is the meaning of 14,4 ? You say it is about not dismissing something you are not proud of ? In other words admitting fault to yourself ? :confused:


Ultimately I'm interested in meaning, the words to get there are the tools.

[ewald]

You say it is about not dismissing something you are not proud of ? In other words admitting fault to yourself ? :confused: Yes.
I also say that I'm not clear on the meaning of 14.4, as several translations are valid. The word "pride" can be seen in at least two ways, and the Chinese character 彭 there, can also mean "sound of drum" or "plenty." Lise for instance has (http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_1-16/hex_e_14.htm) "Not at all sounding one's drum."

[ewald]

Trojan - I'm not sure why the "confused" emoticon. Do you have a problem with the concept of acknowledging fault, or something? People deny fault all the time, in order to avoid feeling to have little worth.

[trojan]

Trojan - I'm not sure why the "confused" emoticon. Do you have a problem with the concept of acknowledging fault, or something? People deny fault all the time, in order to avoid feeling to have little worth.

No, I was confused because on the one hand you seemed to be possibly agreeing with the idea that pride might make one attempt to compete but your interpretation is very different in that its about admitting fault. No of course I don't have a problem with the concept of admitting fault, who would ? I was just checking with you thats what you think this line means.

[ewald]

I've dug a bit deeper than earlier with the hexagram index, and found some more threads where situations are described where 14.4 is thrown. I'm not sure whether and how this is meaningful, but 2 of them are from musicians, and the character 彭 means (o.a.) "sound of drum."

musician not getting gigs (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=699)
musician worried about not being able to duplicate the magic of a previous recording (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=2319&page=2)
someone feeling foolish about wanting to talk to someone who is leaving her (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=726)
worth of a penny stock (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=1915)

I think "It is not one's pride" as a translation does fit for these situations. I'm not getting a clear sense of superiority issues, comparing oneself to others, or frustrated bragging, but I wouldn't rule it out. "Not at all sounding one's drum" if it would mean something like "keeping silent, instead of proudly telling everyone" does seem to work in a couple of instances, but I'm not really convinced of the "telling everyone" part.

Apparently, something that one would have been proud of isn't happening. I'm not so sure anymore about the "acknowledgment" part of that, it doesn't seem to be a major aspect of the situation.

[bruce_g]

Drums can be and have been used for many purposes. There’s drum beating for rain, a harvest, before or while hunting, for weddings, for war, and also to communicate with others long distances away. So it’s worth considering that ‘not beating ones drum’ can mean not telegraphing or broadcasting your thoughts, plans or possessions to your neighbors.

[ewald]

One could also translate 匪其彭 with "It is not one's drum sound," perhaps meaning something like "one is not being called." I imagine something like that there might be several ways of drumming that call specific regiments of an army into action.

[rosada]

14.5
Six in the fifth place means:
He whose truth is accessible, yet dignified,
Has good fortune.

The situation is very favorable. People are being won not by coercion but by unaffected sincerity, so that they are attached to us in sincerity and truth. However, benevolence alone is not sufficient at the time of POSSESSION IN GREAT MEASURE. For insolence might begin to spread. Insolence must be kept in bounds by dignity; then good fortune is assured.
-Wilhelm

[lightofreason]

IC+
Line 5
"One's sincerity and ability to communicate is impressive."

with/from directing comes singlemindedness.

[frank_r]

Line 5, in the middle of trigram fire, It's the blue centre of the burning flame, the yin that gives the light and the heat.

And although it's yin on a yang spot, it's the ruler anyone can see. Because he/she is sincere.

It's also the last Palace from the House of The Creative. The house of the Free will. with this line the "spirits" can return to the origin again to start a new cycle.
A Frenchmen Morreleau who wrote about the 8 Houses said that the last Palace had to do with the principle of the Trigram of water. He said that the last Palace was part of the Family of water. And this family of water raises action principles.

And in the case of 14 there is a connection with 8(the last palace of the House of the Receptive(trigram Earth). the fortune of the Individual or that of the group.
In 14 they follow because of the individual sincerity, in 8 they follow because of the sincerity of ideas.

[rosada]

14.6
Nine at the top means:
He is blessed by heaven.
Good fortune.
Nothing that does not further.

In the fullness of possession and at the height of power,
one remains modest and gives honor to the sage who stands outside the affairs of the world.By this means one puts oneself under the beneficent influence from heaven, and all goes well. Confucius says about this line:

To bless means to help. Heaven helps the man who is devoted;
men help the man who is true. He who walks in truth and is
devoted in his thinking, and furthermore revers the worthy,
is blessed by heaven. He has good fortune, and there is nothing
that would not further.
-Wilhelm

[rosada]

"He is blessed by heaven"
What a good thought to have before us here in the United States as we gather to celebrate Thanksgiving Day tomorrow.

[lightofreason]

Line 6
"At the top one gets the protection of heaven itself. Advantageous."

WIth/from directing (14) comes invigoration (34)

[sparhawk]

http://www.yitoons.com/yicards/yicard14.jpg