Clarification by senior members of requested to two common questions..

[hexagon]

Clarification required by a senior member:

1.What is the position of an unchanging hexagram?

2. Is the topmost changing hexagram of most significance? In other words, is the order chronological?

I admire the advice I have received by two senior members and want to learn more.

[dobro]

Clarification required by a senior member:

1.What is the position of an unchanging hexagram?

2. Is the topmost changing hexagram of most significance? In other words, is the order chronological?

I'll tell three things I think and one thing I know.

I think that the position of an unchanging hexagram is this: it's the big picture compared to the individual lines, which are aspects of the big picture. So if you draw an unchanging hexagram, you're getting a biggie compared to if you draw changing lines.

I think the order of the hexagrams is not important, although I think the *pairs* of hexagrams are really important cuz you can understand a hexagram better when you compare it to its twin.

I know that different people have different opinions about these questions, and so there's a lot of disagreement about them.

I think that what's important is that *you* decide what the rules are before you consult the Yi; the Yi will know your decision and adjust accordingly.

[hexagon]

I agree that you bring your own rules into the reading. I also found out that giving yourself time, ie: re-reading the reading at a later time, say a day later, can do wonders to trigger our intuition so something clicks and we just "get it'" The initial reading can be overwhelming, but give it time and we can suddenly see something that was there all along.

Laurie

[lightofreason]

1.What is the position of an unchanging hexagram?

There are three forms of interpretation of self-referenced dichotomies - here being yin/yang - symmetric, asymmetric and anti-symmetric:

(a) as a representative of magnitude, scalar expression, degree of 'anger' etc etc As such there are no concepts of 'changing lines' etc but what you can do is acquire a hexagram's spectrum through an equivalent sense of 'changing lines' through the use of the XOR operator (see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html )
What THIS does is show how all hexagrams form a language with all categories linked together. This allows us to get a hexagram to describe itself though analogy to the othe hexagrams.

(b) as a representative of sequence - date/time stamp etc. In this format, due to the rigid nature of time you can have only one changing line to represent some current position in the sequence (none at all would indicate a time not started perhaps ?) Plum Blossom interpretations work off this. - overall (b) reflects the movement from issues of scalars to those of vectors etc.

(c) as a representative of hierarchy - we combine magnitude and sequence and so allows for different levels in the hierarchy to reflect 'change'. We can interpret each line as a level and if changing then that level has 'issues' - OR we can inerpret all changes as transforming the whole structure into something else - either literally or figuratively. Most traditional perspectives favour (c). With tensors etc so we have a system that when 'touched' will re-configure itself to make the best response to the touch.


2. Is the topmost changing hexagram of most significance? In other words, is the order chronological?

- do you mean LINE? IN plum blossom there is only one line (b). In magnitudes (a) there are none (we can increase scales and move to dodecagrams (4096) and COMPRESS them into hexagrams where they would appear as 'changing lines' but in fact are compressed expressions and so no change really)

In hierarchic format (c) each line can be considered independent of the rest and so reflecting an issue in THAT 'department'. E.g. if the top line is changing then it indicates an issue with the 'sage' nature of the hexagram - and if line 3 is also changing then there is an issue with the 'local lord' nature of the hexagram. OR you can consider both lines as being dependent and so derive a hexagram of 'change' where neither line matters in that the result is what matters.

All hierarchies come in two forms - nested and non-nested. In the latter the levels are almost independent of each other, in the former there are strong dependences across all levels so it is context that decides the 'best' method of interpretation (although all three will work since the context will reflect all three ;-))

Chris.

[heylise]

I got very often really good answers, with unchanging hexagrams, when I asked about something, or a situation, "what IS this". Not what I needed to do, or what would happen, just wanting to know what this actually was.

It gave me more insight in many other answers too. As if they are usually rather a description of a situation or time than an advice or whatever else. I did like that, as if Yi just tells you the facts, and leaves the rest to your own intelligence. It is what I would expect from an expert, when I ask about something. Telling me the facts in a clear way.

So that is what I see most of all in an unchanging hexagram. An image of this moment, of this situation, or whatever I asked about.

When I ask a question about the best course of action, I seldom get the same hexagram more than once for a question, but when I ask for a description, I often do. Even when there are months in between.

As for your other question: I only think there is anything chronological when your asked for that. I think a hexagram is a whole, every part existing at the same moment. Every line being an aspect of that moment.

LiSe

[dobro]

I got very often really good answers, with unchanging hexagrams, when I asked about something, or a situation, "what IS this". Not what I needed to do, or what would happen, just wanting to know what this actually was.

It gave me more insight in many other answers too. As if they are usually rather a description of a situation or time than an advice or whatever else. I did like that, as if Yi just tells you the facts, and leaves the rest to your own intelligence. It is what I would expect from an expert, when I ask about something. Telling me the facts in a clear way.

So that is what I see most of all in an unchanging hexagram. An image of this moment, of this situation, or whatever I asked about.

Lise, I don't know if what you say has any particular connection with unchanging hexagrams, but recently I've started to ask questions like you describe here. Not 'what do I need to do?' or 'what do I need to know about...?' but 'what's happening here?' 'what's the truth here?' 'what IS it'?

A good question is worth the speed of light.

[hexagon]

Yes, I agree. The clarity of the question can lead to clarity in the answer. Asking simply WHAT IS provides a snapshot of what IS and allows us to move forward with clarity of purpose.

Laurie

[bradford]

Clarification required by a senior member:
1.What is the position of an unchanging hexagram?
2. Is the topmost changing hexagram of most significance? In other words, is the order chronological?

I'll concur with the others on the first one. For an illustration, if I remember any of my Fijian language, they have base words which they slow down into nouns with the prefix Na or speed up into verbs with the prefix Sa. So the prefix would distinguish between The Rain and Raining. "Unchanging" (never really any such thing) would be slowed down and more thing or state like than it would be the description of a change.

I don't think I understand the second question. Do you mean the final result after multiple lines change? If so, I would make that more important than the changing lines, which could contradict each other.

[lightofreason]

Yes, I agree. The clarity of the question can lead to clarity in the answer. Asking simply WHAT IS provides a snapshot of what IS and allows us to move forward with clarity of purpose.

Laurie

the snapshot perspective means a focus on a magnitude, thing-ness, and reflects the type (a) usage given in my post above. In this format the XOR material gives insight into the hexagram as a whole, covering all properties and methods by analogy to all of the other hexagrams.

If the particular question is hard to ask then we can use the situation to tell us in that our perceptions of a situation will seed our brain and it will go through a series of general questions that can give us a representation of that situation without being too specific. Thus the focus is 'what is going on?' and the questions map out basic brain dynamics in dealing with novelty:

(a) is this a yin or yang context (e.g. values or facts)

(b) WITHIN (a) is this a yin or yang time context (e.g. what could have been/isnot/could be OR what was/is/will be)

(c) WITHIN (a+b) is this me being yin or yang (e.g. Am i responding to or instigating this situation)

The TRIGRAM that this forms is the base for eight hexagrams and so consideration of them will elicit 'resonance' where one describes the situation and we can use XOR to extract details if need be.

The Emotional I Ching material asks the questions of our emotions, as in how we FEEL.

Complications about a bias due to personal influences can be delt with by getting someone else to answer the questions on THEIR perspective of YOUR involvements etc.

Thus ANY situation can be mapped to a hexagram without use of random/miraculous methods - just use of simple Q and A.

Chris.

[hexagon]

I'll concur with the others on the first one. For an illustration, if I remember any of my Fijian language, they have base words which they slow down into nouns with the prefix Na or speed up into verbs with the prefix Sa. So the prefix would distinguish between The Rain and Raining. "Unchanging" (never really any such thing) would be slowed down and more thing or state like than it would be the description of a change.

I don't think I understand the second question. Do you mean the final result after multiple lines change? If so, I would make that more important than the changing lines, which could contradict each other.

I appreciate your wanting clarification as another member tried to answer this question. I am asking about the changing lines of the first hexagram. Is there a chronological order with which to read them? If there are two changing lines such as 1 and 5, would I read 1 then read 5 as the final outcome? It puzzles me as there are often contradictory messages with the different changing lines.

[lightofreason]

I appreciate your wanting clarification as another member tried to answer this question. I am asking about the changing lines of the first hexagram. Is there a chronological order with which to read them? If there are two changing lines such as 1 and 5, would I read 1 then read 5 as the final outcome? It puzzles me as there are often contradictory messages with the different changing lines.

if you treat all changing lines as levels in a hierarchy then the lines relate to the level, not to each other. Thus line 1 relates to the general, 'worker' level and its problems, line 5 to the court position and its problems. These problems are eliciting change across the whole system but on their own are not responsible for it (OTOH if line 1 only was changing then it would be responsible for the change)

If you recognise the hierarchy as a non-nested form then each level is indepedent of the others and there are no 'contradictions' since all levels run in parallel not serial; it is the quality of the levels that give the hierarchy.

On the other hand, given a social hierarchy that IS dependent, the higher up you go the more influence on those below such that changing line 4 can dramatically influence all below it but not necessarily that above it (at best that immediately above it, no more)

Consider Dilts' hierarchy applied to the I Ching:

Spirituality - top line
Identity
Beliefs
Capabilities
Behaviour
Environment - bottom line

IF I change your identity (line 5) then all below is influenced, OTOH if I change your behaviour only interactions with the enviroment is influenced.

Finally - consider the approach where:

(1) each line comment is for that line.
(2)The lines are idependent and so cannot be taken as a pair of changing lines - THAT relationship demands its own change comment such that there are 56 comments missing per hexagram!

In the hierarchy, due to the different types you are looking for the 'best fit' - in some cases the hierarchy is non-nested and so lines are independent levels, in others (nested) there is dependencies of lines etc etc so given the toolkit of possible interpretations you let context decide.

Chris.

[sparhawk]

Sigh... :D

There goes a perfectly good newbie... :rofl:

Chris, don't scare them. Hold the juice until they have accumulated at least 50 messages. By then, they'll deserve whatever comes their way... LOL!

L

[hexagon]

if you treat all changing lines as levels in a hierarchy then the lines relate to the level, not to each other. Thus line 1 relates to the general, 'worker' level and its problems, line 5 to the court position and its problems. These problems are eliciting change across the whole system but on their own are not responsible for it (OTOH if line 1 only was changing then it would be responsible for the change)

If you recognise the hierarchy as a non-nested form then each level is indepedent of the others and there are no 'contradictions' since all levels run in parallel not serial; it is the quality of the levels that give the hierarchy.

On the other hand, given a social hierarchy that IS dependent, the higher up you go the more influence on those below such that changing line 4 can dramatically influence all below it but not necessarily that above it (at best that immediately above it, no more)

Consider Dilts' hierarchy applied to the I Ching:

Spirituality - top line
Identity
Beliefs
Capabilities
Behaviour
Environment - bottom line

IF I change your identity (line 5) then all below is influenced, OTOH if I change your behaviour only interactions with the enviroment is influenced.

Finally - consider the approach where:

(1) each line comment is for that line.
(2)The lines are idependent and so cannot be taken as a pair of changing lines - THAT relationship demands its own change comment such that there are 56 comments missing per hexagram!

In the hierarchy, due to the different types you are looking for the 'best fit' - in some cases the hierarchy is non-nested and so lines are independent levels, in others (nested) there is dependencies of lines etc etc so given the toolkit of possible interpretations you let context decide.

Chris.
I appreciate your efforts of designating the character to each line - it helps me understand how the position of each line is interrelated, but independent. Wow - a big piece of the puzzle is placed, even though some of what you say is over my head. The foundation has to be built before a basic understanding is recognized. I have work to do, but thanks for putting one of the bricks in place.
To dig a little deeper, I don't understand why a changing line with an ominous tone ie: 'there will be evil" may result in a resulting positive hexagram.

[hexagon]

Sigh... :D

There goes a perfectly good newbie... :rofl:

Chris, don't scare them. Hold the juice until they have accumulated at least 50 messages. By then, they'll deserve whatever comes their way... LOL!

L
I understand your concern - and to be honest, Chris' first message was waaayyy over my head (page 1). However, it made me realize how in depth the IC can go, or not, if one prefers. I remain intrigued.

[sparhawk]

I understand your concern - and to be honest, Chris' first message was waaayyy over my head (page 1). However, it made me realize how in depth the IC can go, or not, if one prefers. I remain intrigued.

Oh my... :D

Well, if you take Chris's point of view and material, the Yi is not deep but bottomless; at the same time that it is a well oiled machine and cosmic computer with a logic circuit board. He may have a point there, who knows.

Chris, you didn't scare this one. Go deeper... :mischief:

L

[hexagon]

Whooooaaa Nelly! I must emphasize my earlier rant that most of what Chris says is "waayyy over my head" and is. I dug a little deeper into some earlier postings and found the nucleus to some of Chris' outlook with the IC. I think I need a basic foundation before I can even think of contemplating an understanding the bottomless pit.

[sparhawk]

Whooooaaa Nelly! I must emphasize my earlier rant that most of what Chris says is "waayyy over my head" and is. I dug a little deeper into some earlier postings and found the nucleus to some of Chris' outlook with the IC. I think I need a basic foundation before I can even think of contemplating an understanding the bottomless pit.

Hexagon, my dear, too late!! You are now under his spell... :rofl:

Luis

[hexagon]

Time to strap on my seat belt and enjoy the ride, I guess. Digest what I can - learn by osmosis through these and other readings. This is a joy - I've had questions pent up in my head for years which have gone unanswered. Yes, I am a newbie, but have used the IC off and on for years on a superficial level. What attracts me to the IC as opposed to any other form of divination is it's philosophical bent with the tao. Balance.

[lightofreason]

...To dig a little deeper, I don't understand why a changing line with an ominous tone ie: 'there will be evil" may result in a resulting positive hexagram.

All hexagrams are 'neuter' in general, they work as universals and so lack colour. LOCAL context adds the colour such that a hexagram can be considered positive or negative. Thus the Receptive (02) is both total, utter, darkness is a negative sense as it is the darkness of the nurturing womb in a positive sense. The Creative (01) is positive in the leadership/light focus as it is negative in the competitiveness and intensity of that light where it can burn/blind.

The line comments stem from a later period in the IC development where the commentor (Duke of Chou) added more personal perspectives and so colourings. We can change the focus a bit to bring out generic interpretations that allow the user to fill in the emotional dots but I have not done that yet ;-) - too much else to do at the moment!

Chris.

[bradford]

If there are two changing lines such as 1 and 5, would I read 1 then read 5 as the final outcome? It puzzles me as there are often contradictory messages with the different changing lines.

Yes, the theory is that the higher the line the more towards the future, so you read them like you build them, from the bottom up.
I personally transform the lines one at a time from the bottom up and thus work my way through a series of line texts in different heaxagrams, a method called Transitional Hexagrams. It goes to the same resultant hexagram. It really clears things up for me and wipes out lots of contradictions. But I don't think I've talked anybody else here into using that method.

[bradford]

Whooooaaa Nelly! I must emphasize my earlier rant that most of what Chris says is "waayyy over my head" and is. I dug a little deeper into some earlier postings and found the nucleus to some of Chris' outlook with the IC. I think I need a basic foundation before I can even think of contemplating an understanding the bottomless pit.

Hexagon-
Do Not let this stuff confuse you.
Chris is nothing but a blowhard with his own private language
and some quasi-scientific jargon. It ain't all that meaningful.
He does not Want to be understood, because then he couldn't
baffle and bewilder you and thus impress you in this way.
This is a personality disorder, not wisdom.

[lightofreason]

Hexagon-
Do Not let this stuff confuse you.
Chris is nothing but a blowhard with his own private language
and some quasi-scientific jargon. It ain't all that meaningful.
He does not Want to be understood, because then he couldn't
baffle and bewilder you and thus impress you in this way.
This is a personality disorder, not wisdom.

Wow - I have never written anything like this about you or ever flamed you without you flaming first - and here you wreck this thread by doing it again.

I feel sorry for you bradford - this sort of desparation prose reflects someone who lacks depth in understanding and is obviously struggling with anything on the IC that is not written in limited 10th century BC 'speak'.

The IC+ material, stemming from IDM, is A MAJOR contribution to analysis of the I Ching. The FACT that it marginalises your work by making it 'just another IC interpretation' is probably upsetting but there is nothing I can do about that - change is inevitable and if you cannot deal with that - if you refuse to 'get' the lingo etc there is little I can do about it but it does NOT warrent you making the above remarks - you just look even more ignorant than you already are re the derivation of meaning in general.

The IDM material is VERY meaningful in identifying what is BEHIND all of the exptressions, and so what is behind the IC meanings, what qualities, what categories, seed those meanings to allow them to be understood outside of ancient China.

If I am conceited it is justified since the work IS that good - for you to be conceited, dismissive and all of the other 'names' is unfortunate since you have nothing to be conceited about; your work is no contribution at all to the overall IC, at best of interest to your 10th century BC mates - you can all gather in the pub and rave on about the angled line in top left of the X character in the image text of hexagram Y! LOL! PATHETIC STUFF.

The IC+ material with XOR etc IS wisdom but it is a wisdom you will never experience due to YOUR personality disorder of fear of change and fear of having your contributions marginalised and so your identity marginalised. Poor baby.

GROW UP. LEARN 21st century IC 'speak'. Dont fight the inevitable, you will be assimilated or you will die of old age wondering 'what happened?'.. 'where did I go wrong?'

May I suggest that you follow Martin and Bruce_g and block my posts and that way I wont impinge on you 'little' world and you wont feel the need to write such prose as you have above. Because you cannot cope with the IC+ material does not mean others cannot as well - after you are not exactly Mensa material from what I have seen in the past so it will take you some effort to 'get it' even if you tried.

SO - as I have said to Martin, I will say to you - PUT UP OR SHUT UP. I can link all that I present to work in neurosciences, psychology etc etc so to put up you need to contradict what I have said with references to empirically derived research, not some personal 'value' you hold.

Chris.

[bradford]

I thought you might disagree with me on those points
and prepared the following silence:

[hexagon]

It's unfortunate that our discussion has come to this as I was learning much from everyone, in spite of the fact that some of it was beyond me.I I guess if there's anything we can learn from this experience is to remember that the IC is simply a vehicle, or guidance to follow the tao. My thanks go out to everyone who helped in their own way to teach me.

[miakoda]

I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.

41.4: He decreases his affliction, dimininshes his faults. He acts quickly. There will be joy. No blame.

41.6: If one is increased without descreasing others, there is no blame. Perseverence brings good fortune. It is beneficial to have somewhere to go. One obtains servants, but no household.

About these lines, Balkin says: If you break the cycle of negative thoughts and strive to eliminate your faults, you will gain a fresh lease on life. To be increased without decreasing others means acting for the public good. (Yes, I know that some may say that this is random--but it's apt, isn't it?)

Actually, I've been following this thread just because it excluded us non-senior citizens at Clarity and it got my nose out of joint. I've been waiting for someone to stand up for those of us who are newbies to the site, but whose relationship to the Book of Changes is counted in decades. All of the contributors to the site should be respected. The point shouldn't be whether I or anyone else is excluded or who is right in their interpretation--Chris or Bradford or Lise, etc.--but that when we fall into struggles for power the way becomes lost.

Surely anger is not in the flow of the tao, is it?

Best,

Miakoda

[hexagon]

Hello Miakoda:
In respnse to my comment on the tao in my last posting - we are all human no matter how much we may bring to the table. Anger is not an attribute of the tao; rather, it is a yellow light that says we have strayed. A simple awaremess of this and one is back on track. I wanted to ask a senior member partly because there is so much I have yet to learn and felt asking for solid direction would educate me appropriately. It was never my intention to exclude anyone, which I did, so apologies to anyone who felt left out. I value input from everyone.

So there it is - the platform is open to everyone!

[willowfox]

"I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.

Hex 41.4 the superior members must decrease their faults and then all will be well again.

Hex 41.6 there are some here who can be of benefit to everybody, but they must make sure that they don't bring about decrease to the new members by their attitude, the senior members are there for the public good.

Hex 54 these so called senior members should acccept a lowly position and not try to be high and mighty, otherwise misfortune occurs for the whole household. Nobody can get along with the big, brash members who think that they are special and deserve recognition in this forum at every post.

[trojan]

I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.

41.4: He decreases his affliction, dimininshes his faults. He acts quickly. There will be joy. No blame.

41.6: If one is increased without descreasing others, there is no blame. Perseverence brings good fortune. It is beneficial to have somewhere to go. One obtains servants, but no household.

About these lines, Balkin says: If you break the cycle of negative thoughts and strive to eliminate your faults, you will gain a fresh lease on life. To be increased without decreasing others means acting for the public good. (Yes, I know that some may say that this is random--but it's apt, isn't it?)

Actually, I've been following this thread just because it excluded us non-senior citizens at Clarity and it got my nose out of joint. I've been waiting for someone to stand up for those of us who are newbies to the site, but whose relationship to the Book of Changes is counted in decades. All of the contributors to the site should be respected. The point shouldn't be whether I or anyone else is excluded or who is right in their interpretation--Chris or Bradford or Lise, etc.--but that when we fall into struggles for power the way becomes lost.

Surely anger is not in the flow of the tao, is it?

Best,

Miakoda

Why should you be disturbed by 'rancour' here. What passes between people on these threads has a long history. Seems only human to me that from time to time people show some exasperation etc etc with each other.

A senior member is only someone who has posted over a certain amount of times, it doesn't really indicate any kind of seniority so I am a bit lost that you seem to think non senior members are excluded. I don't think any of us gives a toss who is senior or not.

As for anger not being part of the tao, well is it outside the tao then ? Does following tao look like a certain way of behaving which always involves being carefully polite and avoiding any authentic expression of feeling ?

There is no 'struggle for power' as you put it, its just people being themselves. Why do you want soemone to stand up for you as far as i can see no one has attacked you

Its all very well when you are new and detached to stand back and nod sagely and say what a pity it is that someone expressed anger. Thats easy, and in my view pretty sanctimonious.

New people pass through here all the time, sorry I don't really see why older members need to tiptoe around them for fear of offending their sensibilities ?

I think Wfox is a senior member, perhaps she needs to take her own advice.

[trojan]

"I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.

Hex 41.4 the superior members must decrease their faults and then all will be well again.

Hex 41.6 there are some here who can be of benefit to everybody, but they must make sure that they don't bring about decrease to the new members by their attitude, the senior members are there for the public good.

Hex 54 these so called senior members should acccept a lowly position and not try to be high and mighty, otherwise misfortune occurs for the whole household. Nobody can get along with the big, brash members who think that they are special and deserve recognition in this forum at every post.


What is this nonsense ? Wfox you are indeed a senior member, I hope you will accept your self imposed lowly position. :rofl:

[sparhawk]

members who think that they are special and deserve recognition in this forum at every post.

But I am!! I am!! Ask my dog, she'll tell you. :)

L (on his way to seniority, God willing...)

[trojan]

"
Hex 54 these so called senior members should acccept a lowly position and not try to be high and mighty, otherwise misfortune occurs for the whole household. Nobody can get along with the big, brash members who think that they are special and deserve recognition in this forum at every post.

Actually I can't think of one single person here who appears to expect recognition at every post :confused: Would you care to elaborate Wfox ? I mean in what form does this expectation of recognition take ? Who are you talking about ?

[trojan]

I was disturbed by the rancor on this thread and asked the Yi Jing if there was anything to possibly pass along and got this: 41.4.6>54.


Miakoda

BTW I would take this answer as applying to Miakoda herself . If the Yi were passing messages through her to pass to members her wouldn't she be assuming a pretty exalted role of 'channeler'. Miakoda if I want to know how to improve my behaviour I would ask for myself.

[bruce_g]

I hear ya, Trojan.

As a senior member, please allow me to say, it don’t mean sqwat. Good ideas are good ideas, knowledge is knowledge, and no-one has arrived.

It’s unlikely anyone will get along with everyone, and neutralizing everyone’s disposition, in the name of Dao or some other idealist cause, to be one big bowl of soup, is akin to Big Brother, or Sister, in this case. But it is important, imo, that no-one disrespects the others by continuously badgering them by saying their way is always wrong, and that their own way is the only way. After a few years, it gets old.

[trojan]

But it is important, imo, that no-one disrespects the others by continuously badgering them by saying their way is always wrong, and that their own way is the only way. After a few years, it gets old.

Agreed, thats why I think its important some anger can be expressed at this now and again.

[miakoda]

Oh dear. I only asked the Yi Jing the question as a way of trying to help--no arrogance intended. It seemed that at that point in the thread that a line was being crossed from authentic disagreement into some nastiness. I wanted to help! But I didn't want to be presumptuous, so I asked the Yi Jing before I posted: Is there anything I should say? (Actually, I've done this several times in the past and been told on those occasions not to and so I haven't responded. I always check with the Yi Jing before I post on the site.) But perhaps the answer didn't fit for you, Trojan, because it didn't apply to you? I don't know. It's not for me to say. But I asked and passed on the answer only in the spirit of gathering together.

As to my feeling excluded (not attacked surely), it was because hexagon had asked for senior members to respond, which, logically, means nonseniors weren't welcome on this particular thread (the title of the thread is: Clarification by senior members of requested to two common questions). He's answered that very nicely and I appreciate his kindness. It's my hope that it encourages others who might have fresh insights but do not frequently post to come forward.

That was it. No offense intended. If I behaved arrogantly, I apologize.

Namaste,

Miakoda

[bruce_g]

Oh dear. I only asked the Yi Jing the question as a way of trying to help--no arrogance intended. It seemed that at that point in the thread that a line was being crossed from authentic disagreement into some nastiness. I wanted to help! But I didn't want to be presumptuous, so I asked the Yi Jing before I posted: Is there anything I should say? (Actually, I've done this several times in the past and been told on those occasions not to and so I haven't responded. I always check with the Yi Jing before I post on the site.) But perhaps the answer didn't fit for you, Trojan, because it didn't apply to you? I don't know. It's not for me to say. But I asked and passed on the answer only in the spirit of gathering together.

As to my feeling excluded (not attacked surely), it was because hexagon had asked for senior members to respond, which, logically, means nonseniors weren't welcome on this particular thread (the title of the thread is: Clarification by senior members of requested to two common questions). He's answered that very nicely and I appreciate his kindness. It's my hope that it encourages others who might have fresh insights but do not frequently post to come forward.

That was it. No offense intended. If I behaved arrogantly, I apologize.

Namaste,

Miakoda

Yatahey, Miakoda.

Naw, I don't think you offended anyone, at least not me. There's just a little history involved, which you had no way of knowing of.

[trojan]

Hi Miakoda, no theres no need to apologise, I'm sure as you say your motive was to help.
I'm sorry also in that I think I've been a bit heavy handed with you :bows: As Bruce says theres history you weren't to know of.

[sparhawk]

I'm sorry also in that I think I've been a bit heavy handed with you :bows: As Bruce says theres history you weren't to know of.

Not "heavy handed," Trojan. We agreed before the word was "crabby"... (not that you are alone, mind you. I feel kind of crabby myself lately...) Grab yourselves, all of you, when that comes out... :rofl:

L

[miakoda]

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate your thoughts.

Miakoda

[bradford]

L (on his way to seniority, God willing...)

Hey Luis
I thought it was señority for you
Has Lorraine P. wrestled the book from you yet? I gave her your contacts.
She just switched jobs and hasn't been available, plus the zhouyi.com
mailbox stacks up with lots of spam and clogs when she's away for awhile.
You probably know that she has what's likely the most complete English
language Yijing library in the world (unless Ed H. has more) It's really hard
to find one she's missing (but I did it once too).

[willowfox]

"What is this nonsense ? Wfox you are indeed a senior member, I hope you will accept your self imposed lowly position. "

Tell it to the others who attack me first!

[willowfox]

"Actually I can't think of one single person here who appears to expect recognition at every post Would you care to elaborate Wfox ? I mean in what form does this expectation of recognition take ? Who are you talking about ?"

I suggest you back right off trojan unless you want a major problem with me!

If you want to fight with me yet again, then go for it! As I have had enough of people like you and that little monkey jesed.

Please attack me, I relish the battle with you this time!

[sparhawk]

Hey Luis
I thought it was señority for you
Has Lorraine P. wrestled the book from you yet? I gave her your contacts.
She just switched jobs and hasn't been available, plus the zhouyi.com
mailbox stacks up with lots of spam and clogs when she's away for awhile.
You probably know that she has what's likely the most complete English
language Yijing library in the world (unless Ed H. has more) It's really hard
to find one she's missing (but I did it once too).

No Brad, in Spanish we just become "ancianos" if we are nice or "viejos de mierda" if we've been less than that... Spanish is a cruel language for spitefulness and very romantic for love. We are language terrorists... :D

As for Lorraine, no, she hasn't contacted me yet. I hope she does, at least to chat.

Cheers,

L

[bradford]

Ah, feistiness
The girding of loins and waking of wits
And the smell of fresh-sharpened pencils
What philosophy should be about

[trojan]

"Actually I can't think of one single person here who appears to expect recognition at every post Would you care to elaborate Wfox ? I mean in what form does this expectation of recognition take ? Who are you talking about ?"

I suggest you back right off trojan unless you want a major problem with me!

If you want to fight with me yet again, then go for it! As I have had enough of people like you and that little monkey jesed.

Please attack me, I relish the battle with you this time!

Look if you choose to see my questioning you about some snidey comments you made about senior members as some form of brutal attack then you have a problem.

You often ask others to explain their comments why shouldn't someone question you.

If you go on in this stupid way I guess I may head over to open space for a rant about how a simple rule here just to say that intensely personal comments won't be tolerated is way over due and you don't amuse me as much as you seem to amuse everyone else. Or I might not bother and just leave cos I don't come here to be threatened which is what you are doing.

[rosada]

Refering to another poster as, "that little monkey.." is neither wit nor amusing. I for one choose to put this poster in time out for a week. I will neither read nor reply to anything she writes for the next seven days.

[lightangel]

<looking around the room>....
Okay, I guess it was just *me* that was amused..:o

I probably should have kept my mouth shut but I just thought it was so outrageous, so over the top that nobody could possibly take it seriously... when I saw the last post, completely out of context and completely unprovoked, well, at first I felt like telling her she was being paranoid or something but then I thought she must be kidding,it was not possible that she could be acting out like that .... but I guess it's not possible that she was kidding and I gues it was probably wrong to have posted that comment and... well I couldn't help it.

But I hope it's obvious that my being amused doesn't mean I agree with her at all... :rolleyes: But oh well, like I said, I probably should just keep my mouth shut :footinmouth:

[sparhawk]

But I hope it's obvious that my being amused doesn't mean I agree with her at all... :rolleyes: But oh well, like I said, I probably should just keep my mouth shut :footinmouth:

BTW, your English is excellent, Lightangel! :rofl:

L

[hexagon]

Ah, feistiness
The girding of loins and waking of wits
And the smell of fresh-sharpened pencils
What philosophy should be about

Ah - the smell of fresh-sharpened pencils cannot be Shakespeare, but apt, nonetheless.

The weather where I live currently reflects this thread - tumultuous winds, heavy rain, snow, sleet, and a lightning storm - all of which took power out of hundreds of homes and businesses - Yikes! so I just HAD to ask:

What lesson can be learned from this thread? and I received 21/4.5 >42. Hexagram 21 Biting Through perplexes me as to it's meaning. Any insights as I've also had this answer in recent issues on relationships.
The things most apparent, those above and in front, are embodied by the upper trigram Li (Fire), which is tansforming into Sun (Wind). As part of this process, brightness and warmth are giving way to penetration and following.
The things least apparent, those below and behind, are embodied by the lower trigram Chen (Thunder), which represents movement, initiative, and action.

[trojan]

:duh: Noo Lightangel I wasn't aiming that comment at you or anyone in particular, honest. I was speaking really of my impression over a long period of time that Wfox can get away with murder where others can't and largely this is to keep the peace and its got to the point where even if one questions her at all one gets a torrent of abuse. Thats just bullying IMO as I find one has to back down or she pursues one relentlessly.

A while back she called me a liar when I said my arm was better where she had predicted it would get worse and I ended up having to back down. I mean I should know about my own ...... arm ! And I thought it quite serious someone making negative predictions on a health issue. Now she's making aggressive threats on the 52,3 thread and being incredibly personally abusive on another thread also, 47,3 I think.

I don't especially have a problem with Wfox in that I think many enjoy her being around and reading her stuff, even I do occasionally. But I am starting to think there really needs a guideline in place simply to say no personal abuse, and certainly no threats.
This wouldn't need a moderator its just if there was a definate guideline that we don't tolerate personal insults here then it would be easier wouldn't it ? As it is we have to sit back and take it and that seems pretty **** to me though I guess one could say it was character forming :D

[sparhawk]

What lesson can be learned from this thread? and I received 21/4.5 >42. Hexagram 21 Biting Through perplexes me as to it's meaning. Any insights as I've also had this answer in recent issues on relationships.


LOL! Yup, that's an apt hexagram for this thread; there is a general "bite me" attitude going around... Who said the Yi has no humor? :rofl:

L

[lightangel]

BTW, your English is excellent, Lightangel!
Thanks Luis, but I don't even get to use all of my vocabulary, since my self-censorship sems to be too strict, compared to others ... :rofl: Yours is excellent too, not bad for two viejos de m***** que somos.... :D

[lightangel]

Trojan, thanks for clarifying that:) . I guess I felt a bit guilty and that is why I felt a little bit on the spotlight, so to speak.

I have given this post a lot of thought, which is very rare for me, I usually shoot from the hip (and it shows ). And I still feel that keeping my mouth shut is a pretty darn good option but I feel, on the other hand, that I should explain myself a little bit. Even though I might be walking on a mine field here..

The truth is that I think you have a point when you say WF seems to be getting away with murder in this case... at least when it comes to my reaction, in my being amused and taking her insults and provocations lightly.

Because... I realized that I have other times reacted in a very different way when I have seen such verbal abuse here or even to much less than that (I was once a bit rude to Autumn and she was quite a princess in not getting really really mad at me and for that I am forever grateful:bows: ). So, I had to ask myself why?? Why don't I react by thinking WF is a witch that should be burned??

And I think that the short answer is ... because I do feel a bit sorry for WF... and also because I felt that, in this case, she was attacked first by Jesed... There, I said it. Other times I have thought that people are either overreacting to a perceived attack that is not there or attacking somebody out of the blue ... I, of course, did not think that the words she used were appropiate and I should have either said that or.. well, I could have used my other option.

Now, to understand my sympathy for WF a bit better, perhaps, I should say that I feel like, whether we want to or not, we do form a sort of community and, I am kind of used to most people here, I feel like I know them a bit, and we all have our ideonsincracies and we often don't see eye to eye but there we are, living side by side in a way (except for crazy uncle C who lives up in the attic :-D ). If you act crabby, for instance, I remind myself that you don't hate me, that you are just crabby sometimes and that is okay :-D And I think that, although I don't agree with the way WF goes about her readings, she seems to click with a lot of the questioners here. And I respect that. After all, not everybody is right all of the time.

Now, I *know* you were not attacking her in that post about senior members, I know that, and I thought about telling her that she was being paranoid when I saw her reaction but then she kept on saying such over the top things that I had to laugh and ... well.. I digress... :o She mentioned she was sick so I thought maybe she was being a bit delirious, I guess..

But I am sorry if it seemed like I minimized the fact that she was insulting to you. In real life, I would have told her to ignore Jesed and I would have told him and you to ignore her... and well, my kids never listen to me either, I wonder why it's so difficult to at least ignore each other in this world, let alone *love* each other :rolleyes:

Well, I hope no mines explode around here.. I hope I didn't further offend anyone but if I did.. well I think that somebody telling me to shut up because I never say anything meaningful is way overdue anyway so I will take it like a man <grin>.

P.S. The four emoticon limit stinks :b

[willowfox]

"Look if you choose to see my questioning you about some snidey comments you made about senior members as some form of brutal attack then you have a problem."

Yes, I have a problem and its called trojan and jesed!

And as for your snidey remarks, shove them!

[willowfox]

"Why don't I react by thinking WF is a witch that should be burned?? "

Yes, I am a witch but this is the 21st century and its against the law to burn us now.

[willowfox]

"You often ask others to explain their comments why shouldn't someone question you."

Read carefully, I make statements, I do not ask questions of others especially from hogwarts such as yourself trojan!

[willowfox]

Refering to jesed as "Refering to another poster as, "that little monkey.." is neither wit nor amusing."

It was not meant to be funny or clever, it was meant to be a statement of fact Rosada. The guy has been a thorn in my side for months just like that damn vermin trojan. If you don't read my posts then no problem because the advice I give for free is aimed at people with genuine problems, not snides like trojan and mosquitoes like jesed.

To be quite honest with you I don't give a **** anymore if I get thrown off this site because of certain members continuely harassing me which just wastes my valuable time. I am here to help the people seeking help not time wasters like trojan and jesed.

[willowfox]

"If you go on in this stupid way I guess I may head over to open space for a rant about how a simple rule here just to say that intensely personal comments won't be tolerated is way over due and you don't amuse me as much as you seem to amuse everyone else. Or I might not bother and just leave cos I don't come here to be threatened which is what you are doing."

Go where ever you want to go but leave me alone! I have told you this before but you choose to ignore that advice, okay, then so be it, now see what can of worms you have opened!
I am NOT threatening you, I am telling you. ****ING STOP WITH ME, OKAY!

[willowfox]

To Lightangel,

Thank you.