Wow - 44 to 23

[millie]

wow. i hav never seen this one. 44 with four changing lines, 2,3,4,5 goes into 23. i asked about the best approach to take with XXX. has anyone received this, or care to offer an interpretation?

[stuart]

I would look at it as a relationship between someone bold and tenacious and another who is more temperate in there behaviour.It seems that that after a period of stagnation there is a period of fruitation.This can only come about through careful and considerate behaviour.I think one will temper another with there caution which only makes the other more determined.

[martin]

What comes to (my) mind is "each unto his own".
Strong individualistic tendencies and/or a desire to be free. If there is an intimate relationship (I don't know) it has to allow for that. The individuals need space to be who they are.
Does that make sense?

[jte]

Hrmm. Hrmm. Perhaps you are to be the "wandering woman" who overthrows the "current regime" in XXX's life. So, presumably, you'll also be good enough to be the "people who carry the chung tzu like a chariot" when you get to the 23.6 part. (In other words, you won't leave this person in a lurch if your advances towards them become somewhat disruptive.)

I've got to say, this *is* a tricky reading, so fair warning: I have fairly low confidence that my interpretation is on the mark on this one...

- Jeff

[millie]

i can't figure this one out either. i'm stumped.

[millie]

does this help? i asked about the long-term outlook between us, and received 64.2 becomes 35. hmm.

[auriel]

seems like a big no to me. take no action & let things move of their own accord. 44 exemplifies the strong yin force that wants to keep things quiet & secretive and under its own control. 23 speaks of a true vision, maybe someone's idea of the perfect relationship programed, even hard-wired in, facing a stacked house against it: you cant fight it, you'll loose sleep,too. more specifically it says a sexual (or merely a dominated) relatioship (44) and a split-up (23). the second reading suggests that before getting more involved(64)you should shop around or really really discuss things (35). that could change the dynamic into something more positive.

[auriel]

seems like a big no to me. take no action & let things move of their own accord. 44 exemplifies the strong yin force that wants to keep things quiet & secretive and under its own control. 23 speaks of a true vision, maybe someone's idea of the perfect relationship programed, even hard-wired in, facing a stacked house against it: you cant fight it, you'll loose sleep,too. more specifically it says a sexual (or merely a dominated) relatioship (44) and a split-up (23). the second reading suggests that before getting more involved(64)you should shop around or really really discuss things (35). that could change the dynamic into something more positive.

[jesed]

Hi Millie

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

According with traditional teachings:

a) In a time to drop old forms in order to get the return of what is essential (23 as a context), the best aproach to take with XXX is to meet with XXX in the middle of the way (it means equaly and free: you don?t domain XXX neither let XXX domains you).

b) Long-term outgoing: Right now you should walk with caution, like a fox crossing the river (64); if you move a little more slowly now, your inner straight will improve (line 2) and finally both of you could progress together (35)

Best wishes

[martin]

Oops, for some reason I thought it was 43 to 23, but I see now that it is 44 to 23. Sorry Millie!
I think it could mean that the Yi advices you to be a bit careful with the influence that your relationship with XXX might have on you and your life. It's not necessarily a "negative" influence but it is maybe stronger than it appears to be.

[millie]

thank you everyone. this is so hepful and a good way to learn the yi. real-life experiences. i learn well this way. thank you.

amazing what can happen when you're feeling anxious. i want to DO something so badly, but so far i have done nothing. i have taken no action. but today, i again asked yi about the best approach for me to take. it's like i'm waiting, and not very patiently, for the right time.

so today i received 31.3.5 becoming 16.

on the surface this all looked good and as though i should move forward enthusiastically in pursut. but no. the lines tell me, i think, to pause and be mindful. and, 31 confuses me because i do not know if it's about the action of wooing, or about mutual wooing. so many questions: does one act on 31, or does one pause for mutuality with 31? is 31 about sex? is 16 about enthusiasm that doesn't last? when do we pay more attention to the lines than to the hex?

i see my own desire to act, and i will temper it because i believe in my heart i should not act. but i still want to. ooohhh. painful.

[hawaii]

Millie - I've been using the oracle for 40+ yrs. IMHO yr situation is a no brainer - no no no. Do not pursue this rel'p. The oracle cld not be more clear (just read it). Your 4 lines, tho unusual - none of them are good (only 1 somewhat neutral). The final change is straightforward - NO. I sympathize w/how you feel - I once went thru the same exercise w/a woman 30 yrs ago. I didnt want to accept the clearcut advice of the oracle. I kept on casting, hoping that a slight variation of the question wld yield a different answer. At 1 pt I even got #4 - like cold water in the face. I finally realized I was being really stupid & wld not have done anyone a favor trying to pursue this rel'p. (I still fantasize about her tho, as she was a lovely person). Anyway, God bless you.

[auriel]

dear millie
yeah 31 can be about sex, especially the woman taking the initiative. the thing to remember is that its you who are recieving the influence, and that people in love have the most sensitive radars ever created. that's not to say you cant fool yourself but 31 pretty clearly says that its mutual. specificly line 3 -is their an embarassed icon? its about the woman who keeps on after the man is spent. the 5th line says that acting out the influence is going to take over your guidance system. you will be on track for any improvised plan of attack. but you could be humiliated somewhat. in other circumstances the line 3 commentary tends to be true but in contemporary sexual politics. . .? 16 is harmony, repose, lying on your bed fantasizing about your loved one (or your hobby) writing poetry- keeping the story alive.
in retrospect your original reading (wow, et al)
may be a blueprint for true agressive persuit, with skillfull carrot on the stick gamesmanship to keep the ball rolling (44.2.4.5). its just that 43.3 seems to indicate that he might have other irons on the fire, might even be currently inaccessible, and that (23) you'd have to get involved in his breakings-up, the momentum of which could, as those things do, carry over into your own scene with him (rebound syndrome). in conclusion, you might have to learn by trying. faint heart never won the low bid on a government contract, at least without inside help.
i dont mean to be flip.
humbly yours,
l

[millie]

yes, yes, yes you are both right. it is a no. and i know this.

the universe is a strange place. for months, i felt unsure about this guy, and what i got back from him was mixed messages, too. then, i started to see how i was doing things so that he wouldn't know how i really felt. oh. that's stupid, i thought. i decide if i've really fallen for him then i need to speak it. so i did. his initial response was positive and then by the next day he fliped out. he can't give me what i want. wants me to move on. the next i hear he's met someone. this has happened to me many times - i've been in a wishy, washy situation, then i take a clear position, and then they suddenly meet someone else. (and yes, i believe that other person truly didn't exist before.)

it sometimes feels i have this direct link. when i'm uncertain, i get uncertain back. when i'm clear, i get clarity in return. do others have this experience? i just wish the clarity i got back once in a while from a guy was a declaration of his love.

[frank]

Hi Millie,

I feel the same thing as you do, as everytime i've a crush on someone everything goes just fine as long as the other one and I stay friends, and she doesn't know I feel (and want) more... But I always want to be faithfull to myself as well and when the presure is getting to intence by not telling what I truly feel, I talk to her about it... then we at least try to stay friends, as in my experience it's always a 'let's stay friends' thing... a thing I start to hate these days (in hearing that is ) :-D, instead of a 'let's go for it'... (which I actually like a lot better, as you do too :-D). Then out of the blue this guy shows up, (a former boyfriend, or someone just new), which is becoming best friend, and is taking my seat, and then the whole thing starts to actualy work betweens the new kid in town and her... Makes me furious, and like a baby cries: "It's not fair"...

That's one thing, so yes, I have the same experience, so I hear ya, sister :-D...

Another thing towards the answer the Yi has been giving you in the form of 44 towards 23, with 4 changing lines gives some insights to me:
1. More then 3 changing lines in my experiences is 'to much emotions involved', you are to emotional at the time of questioning (where you :-D?).
2. By taking 44... which is about sexual things, as also about domination, I have been reading lately on this site, perhaps the Yi is telling you to let go (23) the emotions about the domination as this guy is controlling, or you LET him do that by thinking a lot about him (as I do when I'm in love, so very understandable!) and you connection towards him...
3. By taking the changing lines (make them YANG) you get 28... as in Karcher's 'Outer Operator', so there is realy to much tension, and the Yi is only telling you to let that go first... (23)
4. When having 4 lines changing there's a rule of tumb to read the lower NOT changed line in the NEW hexagram, in this case 23.1 which is telling you that securities (the bed...)are moving... as you are not that secure anymore. To become more of that emotions whould be dealed with first...

I hope this makes some sense to you.

Hang in there!

Hug
Frank

[millie]

auriel, did you say that it looks like i should take agressive action? afterall, my question was about 'best appraoch'

but given what i wrote about the situation, and the possibility that he is with someone, i'm going to do nothing. if there is something here meant to be after all, he will need to come to me.

this direct link thing is interesting. maybe it's a topic for the open space. i wonder how true it is that we really get back what we out out there. i have been putting out alot of uncertainly.

[millie]

frank, just reading your post. we have much to discuss. why do you think it is this way?

[frank]

Hi Millie,

We have much to discuss... o boy :-D... Should I take on a helmet, a harnas, and a sword, so I can defend myself :-D?

Why do I think it is the way I told in my last post? Well, just looking at my experience and meanings of the hexagrams, and reading other people's guesses as well :-D. 44 to me is a strong signal for 'to much' as there are 5 yang lines... as in Hexagram 1, there are 6 witch could be the symbol for pure energy... just do it... just make the plannes... by changing the first line, and hit the dragon below, you get 44... I have a small booklet (in dutch :-()... which is confirming that 44 is about domination and fixation on lust and behaviours in that manner, besides other 'dominant' demanding feelings. New to me was that that same booklet tells me it's the domination of a WOMAN... The Woman is strong, do not marry this woman... In my experience I mostly get these kinds of answers when a woman comes into my life which I realy like, and I start to fantasise about... then the idea in my head get's to strong (perhaps an obsessive way of getting at least the fantasy, instead of the real thing if that is not an option) and the Yi, by giving me this answer (44) then, to me, tells me to let go of those fantasies... as they are to strong (the woman can also be a metaphor for 'emotions' as man are for 'rationality'...). Things in my mind, which also can work for job-occasions, or other stuff can put themselfs very tight into my brain, and 44 then tells me that they are to strong... so let go, do not let you free spirit, as we all are, putted down by straight, energy sucking, feelings and thoughts about a situation that only exists in your head or heart... Besides that the woman in question can still be to strong... out of my league so to speak... not healthy for me, in way's of growing, spiritual and other suport, etc... That can be true also... that the person still can be to strong for you and it's sucking you're energy out...

By reading the changing lines, I always look to the form, the shape, it will take if I took only those lines that changed, make them 'yang' as Yang is 'action' and these lines move, are active... I already deal with this way before Karcher wrote about it, as in dutch articles and by meetings with Dutch I Ching users I already knew about this stuff. By reading the 4 changing lines in your answer, I get 28... wich is about the ridgepole that is starting to collapse... A Ridgepole (and I hope I have the correct subscribtion on it in my plain english :-D) is the roofbeam... which is holding your house... in metaphor, it suports YOU, as YOU are the house... Something, emotions, thoughts, is getting you down to much, and you have to bow with it, otherwise it will crack... like a real roofbeam... Acording to a dutch I Ching writer 28 is also about dealing with Independency... so again... LET GO THE EMOTIONAL ATACHMENT (44 > 23)
It does not say to let go this guy! now way :-D. It is only telling you to get rit of the emotions or thoughts ABOUT the person, perhaps because of your wants and needs, and expectations that HE would forphil them... WITCH IS NOT THE CASE... YOU are the first one to forphill them by yourself (perhaps to show him how you want it :-D!)...

By looking further to new answers you received (like the one for 'the long run", which answer from the Yi was 64.2, towards 35... I can say that to me it seems that AFTER you slowed down emotionaly, or at least ATTACHED-LY (wow, is that an english or american word :-D), so you actualy see where you walk (there are rocks in the river... remember :-D), you will get there and it's promising. By looking at the changing line alone, and make that one YANG, you get hexagram 7, The Army, which is about dissipline. Get some dissipline in getting what you want in a 'behavioural' manner... :-D. Another clue about slowing down is 64.2 itself where you "drag your wheels"... you do not ride them... you DRAG them :-D! By just trying this out (as ZHEN is not only about 'divination' or 'perseverance', but acording to Schuessler, who wrote a book about the meaning of chinese characters in the early Zhou, the time the Yi originated (!), it also means 'to try out'!) you will get progress. You do not lose anything by doing this, as the Yi sais so (Good Fortune in 64.2, To advance, to flourisch as the name for hexagram 35, and receiving blessing from the Queen mother in 35.2 as 'Fang Yao'...)

By reading 31.3/5 to 16... which I do not know the question for... you could say it's about overcomming hindrances, as the two changing lines makes hexagram 39 "Hindrances". It's NOT about GETTING THEM, but OVERCOMMING THEM :-D... Influence could be straight to see when you talk to this guy and the 'click' is there, but in my experience it's mostly very subtle... You do not see the influence... as you do not see wind, you FEEL... and then how on earth can you be open for those FEELINGS, and ENTHOUSIASM, when your own anxiety (44 > 23 / 64 > 35) is standing in the way :-D...?

I'm very curious why the other posts are answered by you in a plain manner, short or longer posts and I get one line, something to discuss... makes me wander, because when my words are way over the top or out of line, I would ofcourse like to hear... :-D

Hope it's making some sence...

Hang in there.

Hug,
Frank

[millie]

frank, thanks for your message. i have been away and unable to respond sooner. i think you misundestood my comment ---- when i said we have much to discuss, i meant that we seem to share a life experience and so perhaps we could discuss it sometime. i do thank you for all the interpretations and thoughtfulness here with my situation. i'm not going to comment further at this point, not because i don't appreciate what you've written, but because i'm now mentally and emotionally ready to move on from this situation, and no longer feel the need to analyze or grasp it. i sometimes use the yi to enable this, and i'm trying to not do that anymore.

[frank]

Hi Millie,

Thank you for your post and yes, I guess I misunderstood a bit the post you sended earlier. I hope I could be of some help figuring out some answers. I?m still in for the discussion you want (someday) :-D.

Hang in there.

Hug,
Frank