54.1 to 40, 17.5 to 51

[noisy_carpet]

Dear friends, I'm afraid I need some help with the reading.
A little history first - about a month ago my very old girlfriend, whom I haven't seen since the graduation called me and suggested that we meet. We met and just chatted and agreed to meet again. I didn't think seriously about it at first, but pretty soon I realised that I still love her more than anyone I knew. What makes things even more complicated is the fact that I've been married for almost a decade now and I never even had a thought of cheating on my wife but what's happening now is just beyond me.
We're calling each other now, not actually dating but all our conversations lack essence. I don't fully understand what her intentions are, is it just nostalgia or she feels smth similar to what I feel. At the same time I don't want to pressurize her in any way and I really think it's better to just let it flow.
Nevertheless, there's noone I can share it with, so I just asked Yi a very blunt and straightforward question - Does she love me? 51 changing to 40 is what I got.
Frankly, it's the first time I'm struggling with the interpretation. Overall meaning seems to be positive, but I also think what Yi is trying to tell me is that I need to wait for some step-change rather than try to create one myself.
I also asked if there's anything I can do to develop and improve my relationship with her and got 17 changing at 5 going to 51. Again this is the way I feel now, but it just seems there's more to it.

Anyways, any thoughts will be much-much-much appreciated. I checked many threads on this board but didn't find a combination like this one anywhere, so I apologize again for bringing my questions in, but I'm just coming through one of the darkest periods in my life now.
Thanks you all again!

[listener]

Dear noisy carpet,

My feeling about 54 > 40 is that she knows you are married and feels at a disadvantage. Perhaps feels she should exit the situation before it progresses.
And 17.5 is about loyal following, constancy. Maybe your friend would want the whole enchilada. It is just interesting that you got 17.5 about this situation since your situation necessarily entails a bit of disloyalty (for your wife). I am wondering if you have considered whether you are willing to "go the distance" for this person? This would mean, would you be willing to leave your wife, divorce, and take up with this new love? 17. 5 is a lot about being willing to "go for it," go the distance, do what ever it takes to follow your heart. And based on the question, it seems that might be what is required of this, if you do indeed want to take it further.

Sorry to hear about your dark period. Hope things improve.

[rosada]

Dear nosey,
Wilhelm comments that 17.5 is about having an ideal to follow. By having such a lodestar we more easily stay on our path. What is your lodestar? What is the highest good you can imagine, and how does your connection with this woman align with this ideal? For example, if your highest ideal, the ideal you want to be the walking embodiment of, is Romantic Love, then you will improve your relationship with this woman by acting in accordance with this ideal - perhaps by having an affair or even leaving your wife. On the other hand if you believe that keeping your word - your vow to be faithful - is your highest ideal, then acting in accordance with this value will improve your relationship with your friend too, even if it means you must renounce the romance.
51 says the superior man sets his life in order. Walk your talk.
17 says the superior man sleeps well at night. Don't do anything that makes you lose sleep.

[willowfox]

"Does she love me? 51 changing to 40 is what I got.?"

Hex 51.2 she is going through some kind of crisis here and is experiencing or feeling some kind of loss in the matter, but in due course everything will sort itself out regards to her feelings toward you, love is regained.

Hex 40 she has experienced a block/obstacle in her feelings toward you but now that has been removed, so I would imagine that in a while her love for you will blossom and grow.
Hex 40 indicates the time around the middle of March.

"I also asked if there's anything I can do to develop and improve my relationship with her and got 17 changing at 5 going to 51."

Hex 17.5 says to follow your heart/feelings and go for her.

Hex 51 Some time in the next few months you will experince some kind of shock/upheaval in your affair, at first you will be frightened because of not being prepared for it but later you will be happy. The outcome of the shake up is positive and new possibilities open up for you, all good stuff.

[dobro]

Noisemaker noisemaker
You have no complaint
You are what you are
And you ain't what you aint
So listen up buster
And listen up good
Stop wishing for bad luck
And knocking on wood

[trojan]

HEY some clarification needed about what hexagram you got. The title of the thread says 54.1, in your first post you say you got 51,1. Listener is answering as if you got 54,1, others are answering as if you got 51,1 ?? What did you actually throw, it makes alot of difference ;)

[noisy_carpet]

thank you all, friends, it's really helpful. Trojan, sorry I wrote it in a hurry and made a mistake in the body of the message - it's 54 with the first line changng just like in the subject. Sorry for it.
Now, getting to the points regarding following, I really don't know. I never thought about anything like divorce in my life, I was through a divorce of my parents as a kid and it really leaves a mark on you for te rest of your life. Nevertheless, and I know it sounds awful, I think I'm ready for divorce now. What I now feel is by far the most serious feeling ever, it's like I'm plugged to a nuclear station, much stronger than back then in the university. I'm trying to figure out another queston to ask Yi but Ithink it may wait as Yi told me enough. Thanks again for your help!

[noisy_carpet]

dobro, I take your verse as a positive sign :)

[dobro]

It's a lyric from a John Prine song called Dear Abbey. He loves to write wrily about misery.

[noisy_carpet]

Read the 54 reading again, still don't fully understand how it's applicable to the question. Listener, your comments may be right, though, sad.

[noisy_carpet]

dobro, don't know if you speak any russian, but "dobro" means "good" in russian as opposed to "evil", which is "zlo" Just in case you didn't know

[trojan]

Noisy 54 is often about being of use in a relationship, being used and seen for your function rather than who you really are. Not the most fun place to be, though not all bad I guess. Line 1 clearly reflects the situation of being secondary to a main partner - whether that refers to her or you I don't know ? Do you know for sure she isn't with someone ? . Its hard to interpret when you ask 'does she love me' because the answer you get may be more about what you can expect or advice to you, not about her. I think its easier to understand the answer if you ask about how you should act, what you should do etc..

Either way if i had received this to this question i think it might be time to come down to earth and look at the facts. What made her contact you at this time, what does she want ? You say your conversations 'lack essence' and you don't know what her intentions are - yet you are head over heels in love. I just don't see 54 as particulary positive in relationship questions, as its about coming second, and not being valued for who you really are, only what you can bring. To save yourself hurt I'd take a step back and look at this as a stranger would - what does she want ? Before you go ahead thinking about ending existing relationships you need to know what her reality is, the only way to know that is by asking her. Of course 40 indicates a release from this pressure on you, whether that be through finishing things with her or your current partner I don't know.

Re17,5 I agree pretty much with what Rosada said. As a stranger looking at your situation I think what has this woman bought you except romantic feelings ? You aren't even having satisfactory conversations. Then think of what your wife has bought you.
What do you value, what has substance ? Then its up to you, but don't rely on the Yi to tell you how she feels, its her that needs to do that

Many here, when they get no real feedback from their loved one keep on asking the Yi and every answer looks positive to them and they just head deeper and deeper into delusion.

[autumn]

I think it's interesting in a situation like this you ask the question, "what can I do to improve my relationship with Her". What relationship?

Oh- you mean the feeling of infatuation and nostalgia you had when you met her. 17.5 (51). Sometimes when you ask nonsensical questions that totally avoid the questions you should be asking the answer you've gotten just mirrors your emotions back to you.

[noisy_carpet]

autumn, your comment makes a lot of sense. It's not the right word here, really. Maybe I need to toss the coins again, but I need to think about the right question here. I'm not using Yi that often, but I know for sure that when you're asking too many questions it really becomes just a mirror of your expectations, just like you said. Thanks a lot!

[noisy_carpet]

trojan, thanks a ton, it's not really like I'm ready to feed on dellusions, I understand pretty well that what's going on is going on just inside me and any resolution possible is going to happen just inside me. I also don't think that the readings are that positive. The only clear thing about them is this whole situation is going to last for a while before resolving, and the outcome won't be anything I expect.
You're also saying that I need to pay more attention to the facts. This is absolutely right, but the facts are not plentiful and this is the very reason I ended up asking Yi. Nothing is easier than act promtly and straightforward, but I'm conscious not to hurt her and I just don't know enough. On the other hand it's been 9 years after we last talked and the fact that we separated back then was totally not my fault, so she must have had a reason to call. So I guess the right question to ask would really be Why?
Sorry again, I'm using your help, but strong emotions make you a little stupid and somewhat blind, so I appreciate your advice a lot.

[autumn]

How about, "show me Her purpose in my life?"

And then, "how should I proceed with Her?" and "how should I proceed with my wife?"

[noisy_carpet]

hi again! Actually I tossed the coins again, asking whether I should talk to her and explain what I feel. It's not because I'm trying to find the "right" answer, but I feel it may be something the hex 17 hints at. Here's what I got - 59 to 42. Looks like the right thing to do. Any ideas?
Again I do apologize for using your time and I do appreciate your help.

[trojan]

. The only clear thing about them is this whole situation is going to last for a while before resolving, and the outcome won't be anything I expect.
.

Not sure why you get that from the reading ? Anyway I can sympathise. I don't understand how these feelings work much either, sudden infatuation etc. I mean theres plenty of theories, projection/transference etc but when you're in it even if you know there is no basis for your feelings, your feelings remain anyway.

FWIW my solutions to date have been ;)

a) total avoidance of infatuation object so I don't lead myself further into misery - this is harsh but it works. I tend to get over them quite fast but come to think of it i may have lost some good friends that way or blocked whatever was potentially positive in the liason.

b) keeping quiet about my feelings, continue in whatever mode relationship is in and see what happens. I don't know how this turns out, still experimenting. ;)

c) blurting out my true feelings. This is disastrous in one sided infatuation scenarios but it is very funny to look back on years later :rofl:

Hmm anyway line 1 of 54 would seem to indicate, if taken quite literally, that though you cannot be first in someones affections there still is nonetheless some good to be gained by continuing on in the relationship, but on a lower key level than you hope for. Of course I keep overlooking the fact that you already knew her, you have history, this isn't someone you just fell for while waiting for a bus.

I don't think i can help much but I do think you would be wise as you say to focus on 'Why'. Why now after 9 years did she call you ? She can't expect you not to wonder what shes up to.

[autumn]

Hmm, seems I crossed posts with you. Who knows, maybe that was a good thing.

Anyway, I still recommend "show me her purpose" from a higher perspective, and "how to proceed with my wife". I'd interpret 59.1.2 (42) as how to proceed.

My interpretation of that answer is that you need to delve deeply within yourself to unlock what she is touching in your psyche and surrender to it. Having surrended to it, you can communicate with her about the soulmate feeling (61.2) you are feeling, which has the potential to enrich your life. That does not necessarily mean you should run off with her. Look closely at her purpose in your life and how to proceed with your wife. Soulmates come into our lives to teach a spiritual lesson, not necessarily to be our life partners.

[noisy_carpet]

trojan, thanks as usual! hope I can help you out sometime as well!
Autumn, I did as you suggested. Her purpose in my life - 48 to 46.
Also asked what am I for her - 11 to 3.
Hands down. Yi never lied to me, it might take awhile to get the message, but it always tells the truth.

[autumn]

Why didn't you ask how to proceed with your wife?

Don't involve in vain speculations like, "what is my purpose in her life". That doesn't concern you. First deal with your own life and finish the questions.

[rosada]

Dear noisy,
How about you go back and reinterpret your answers from the perspective that the I Ching is telling you that she only got in touch with you in the first place because she was feeling guilty about how your relationship ended 9 years ago. As you say, you weren't the one to break it off so I'm assuming it was she who called it quits. Now all this time has gone by and she's wanting to make amends. She knows you are married but she is not looking to displace your wife or even become a friend. Her intention is to stay in the background (54.1), and merely to touch base with you to see if you're okay, maybe apologize and hopefully receive your forgiveness (40. The superior man pardons mistakes, and forgives misdeeds.) However, it was not you who ended the relationship, and as the book title says, "Feelings buried alive never die," so of course your hopes and passions spring back to life. Now you are in a real pickle. You'd like to think she called out of missing you, but if you realistically look at what the I Ching is saying, it's more likely she called because she just knows it ended badly and she wants Peace (11). Possibly you could get something started again, (Difficulty in the Beginning), but there is nothing in these readings to suggest that is what she is wanting. Indeed, these readings point to her wanting closure. If you tear your life apart to take up with her again it will probably only progress to the point where you left off and then she'll want out again, only this time she'll feel less guilty about it and be able to leave without a backward glance.
Bottomline, give her closure. Tell her you really did love her, you are eternally grateful that she cared enough to look you up after all these years, she must not think she ruined your life, you went on to marry a wonderful woman who loves you more than you deserve to be loved and you wish her the best. Good bye.

Meanwhile I agree with autumn. Start asking the I Ching, "What can I focus on to improve my marrage?" As adults we tend to set up situations in our own life that replicate the unsolved puzzels of our childhood. Most likely your parents came to some impasse in their relationship that they "solved" by divorcing. You as their child, however, know this solution was unsatisfactory as it left you hurting and obviously unable to form a lasting relationship on your own. You think if only you had married The Right One you would not have these problems. Wrong. You will always have "these problems", these feelings that your love is not worth it. Your love was not enough to keep your parents together, your love was not enough to keep your girlfriend, and now instead of being happy with your wife, you start to wonder if maybe she isn't "worth it." After all, what sort of a fool must she be to settle for a sorry soul like you? But now your ex has come around again and suddenly you think you are a Worthwhile Person after all! It's like the dream of your parents reuniting coming true, only with the next generation. Heady stuff, but doomed.

Well, I've kinda gone out on a limb here so I'm not going to carry on any further. But using the I Ching to guide you with thie romantic fantasy instead of asking it to shore up your marrage seems realllly foolish, IMHO.

P.S. Are you into feng shui? Supposedly having a round mirror in your bedroom hanging where you can not see it from your bed - ie. hanging on the wall behind the bed - will help harmonize your marrage. Having a mirror - or a television - in the bedroom placed where you can see the images from your bed is said to draw a third party into your relationship. So! Hang a round mirror behind your bed and if you do have a t.v., keep it drapped when you aren't watching.

[martin]

Her purpose in my life - 48 to 46

Nice answer, I think it means that she is in your life now to unblock your feelings, make them flow (more).
To open your heart more, perhaps.

And whatever happens, that's usually a gain. :)

[autumn]

I agree the experience of re-connecting with his old girlfriend appears to be very positive for his inner, emotional life. The problem is that he's so dishonest he refuses to even address how to deal with the person he supposedly loves and is committed to and lives with on a daily basis: his wife. He seems unwilling to even think about her, and most likely the reason is because he's looking for excuses to have sex with this other woman.

The old girlfriend may be many things; a portal into recognizing and cleansing deeper feelings, (like Rosada points out), a catalyst for spiritual renewal, but he most certainly does not LOVE his old girlfriend, or LOVE his wife, for that matter.

Love does not view another person as a narcissitic device. When you love someone, you recognize that they exist separately from you and have emotional experiences and needs that are equal in importance to your own. They don't "disappear" so you can go have sex with someone and then conveniently "reappear" when you start needing a wife again. A person who "loves" you cares intimately about what you think, feel, and experience. The thought of causing pain to someone you acutally love is an overwhelming deterent. You simply don't do things that would cause pain for them.

If you can't feel that way about someone else, or if you don't feel that way, then that person is not even real in your life. They are two-dimensional and caricatured. Your wife exists for YOU to serve YOUR NEEDS, but you have no such responsibility to her. It is impossible for it not to be this way if you cannot address your relationship, and wish for her to disappear so you can fantasize about having sex with your ex-girlfriend. Loving another person doesn't allow you to pretend they don't exist while you go have sex with someone else because you feel like it.

Love also does not stay on the lookout for someone better or more fulfilling to come along, but if your relationship is nothing more than a two-dimensional narcissitic device that serves your needs then you will ALWAYS be open to someone else who is "better". For example, it is not possible for me to have "better" children than I have. I love my children with all of my heart and soul, and they as individuals are irreplaceable. I could not possibly wish for them to be different, more personally fulfilling children.

Yes, it is a fair comparison. Absolutely it is a fair comparison. A marriage has many components, and some aspects of the relationship are not about real, true, love, BUT real, true unconditional love must be one part of it. It must be the bedrock for everything else. If you can make your wife disappear in your mind so you can fantasize about how this other person would fulfill you, even though you know the destruction and pain this would cause your wife, YOU DO NOT LOVE your wife, noise carpet.

[trojan]

Feelings don't tend to fall neatly into what they're supposed to 'rightfully' be though do they Autumn.? I think its always possible even in a good loving relationship a sudden infatuation with another might develop. If one develops such an infatuation I wouldn't say it is wrong as such - it happens and it doesn't mean he doesn't love his wife. He may, he may not, we don't know. Surely its better he can talk about it openly to work it out than feel confusion alone ?

[martin]

Hmm, perhaps I have missed something, but as far as I see Noisy asks the Yi questions because he feels overwhelmed by the feelings that the renewed contact with his ex-gf triggered.
I don't find anything in his posts that indicates that he is seriously thinking about starting a relationship with his ex-gf, leaving his wife, etcetera.
In fact he has written:
I understand pretty well that what's going on is going on just inside me and any resolution possible is going to happen just inside me.

So, what are you two, Rosada and Autumn, talking about? Not about Noisy, I think .. :)

[autumn]

Gee, Martin, I usually always say, "Does He Love Me?" and "We're not actually dating but" and "I've never thought of cheating on my husband before but" when my REAL intentions are completely platonic.

But I expected that kind of denial from this board, and expect a whole lot more of it, too. Good luck.

[trojan]

FWIW my immediate suspicion about why she contacted you after 9 years Noise is that shes just had some negative relationship experience and started to look back and think maybe you can provide her with the positive reassurance she needs she is still attractive/desirable etc. She will recall she was the one who finished with you so likley expects (if subconsciously)you will still have feelings for her. If thats the case then she could be using you in a sense, but thats just speculation on my part.

[martin]

Autumn, whatever you are reacting to (maybe what is supposed to be 'typically male' behavior?) I think we have to be very careful with judging people that we hardly know, based on the little information that we have about them and their situation and a few hexagrams.
Things might be very different from what they seem to be.

[autumn]

My "reactions" are to 17.5 (51), 59.1.2. (42), and 48.5 (46) which all have a common theme of growth in understanding a higher form of love.

It is my judgment that many, many people, including parents in relationship to their children, are hindered in their ability to love truly and unconditionally because of their tendency to not appreciate the full "reality" of the inner world of their partner or loved one. This inability to appreciate the "reality" of the inner world of the other person is what allows people to psychologically deceive themselves into believing that there is some higher purpose to an attraction and affair.

The first time most people (and women are just as likely to cheat as men) have an affair they are usually highly convinced that there situation is unique, that the other man or woman is their soulmate, and that there are valid reasons to begin another relationship before dealing with and ending another. These are almost always delusions.

[rosada]

Yes martin, you did miss something: Noisy specfically states in post #7 that since reconnecting with his old friend he thinks "I'm ready for divorce now."

[lightangel]

Autumn,

I think I understand your point, and I think it's good advice to tell him to ask about what to do about his wife, etc. But the bottom line is that he is not here to be judged or admonished and it's also true that sometimes us women tend to react strongly to perceived typical male behaviour, but it really comes accross as if we are projecting our grievances on the first guilty guy we can find.

The truth is we don't know much about noisy carpet and he hasn't even proclaimed that he loves his wife, so we can't accuse him of not loving her. Like Trojan points out, feelings are usually not so neatly packaged and this infatuation might even turn out to be something good for his marriage, what do we know. Like Martin says, it might get his feelings flowing, not necessarily do those feelings have to be for the ex-gf.

Also, I don't think that love for your children is comparable to love for your partner... you might be more attached to your partner than to your kids... but people fall out of love with their partners a LOT more often than they fall out of love with their kids. It's in fact a bit against nature to fall out of love with your kids. But that is just my opinion and would in fact love to hear other opinions about this..

What brought the ex-gf back? Maybe a desire to reassure herself, like trojan says or, who knows, maybe she just felt like she needed a friend... and noisy carpet seems to be in a vulnerable spot in his relationship and seems to have become very infatuated with her and what could be or could have been... i think this happens every day to a lot of people, at least noisy carpet is trying to make sense out of it and not acting it out just yet... :rolleyes:

[trojan]

Gee, Martin, I usually always say, "Does He Love Me?" and "We're not actually dating but" and "I've never thought of cheating on my husband before but" when my REAL intentions are completely platonic.

But I expected that kind of denial from this board, and expect a whole lot more of it, too. Good luck.

It isn't any of our business whether his intentions are platonic or not, I don't think its remotely relevant. . So what if he wants to sleep with her, its not a terrible crime is it ? You can't believe surely that it never crosses the minds of married men to sleep with other women, lol. How long can a married couple go without having sexual fantasies about another person, mmm studies have shown probably about 3 weeks.:rolleyes:

Theres alot of bias towards holding to the marriage as the best option in our answers and I do think some of the answers suggest that, like 54,1. But I don't believe in marriage as this great sacred thing all must be sacrificed to at all costs, nor textbook definitions of what 'healthy' love is, nor soulmates come to that - but thats just my opinion, like your views are just your opinion.

[autumn]

See:

My "reactions" are to 17.5 (51), 59.1.2. (42), and 48.5 (46) which all have a common theme of growth in understanding a higher form of love.

It is my judgment that many, many people, including parents in relationship to their children, are hindered in their ability to love truly and unconditionally because of their tendency to not appreciate the full "reality" of the inner world of their partner or loved one. This inability to appreciate the "reality" of the inner world of the other person is what allows people to psychologically deceive themselves into believing that there is some higher purpose to an attraction and affair.

The first time most people (and women are just as likely to cheat as men) have an affair they are usually highly convinced that there situation is unique, that the other man or woman is their soulmate, and that there are valid reasons to begin another relationship before dealing with and ending another. These are almost always delusions.

[martin]

Yes martin, you did miss something: Noisy specfically states in post #7 that since reconnecting with his old friend he thinks "I'm ready for divorce now."

Indeed, thank you for pointing that out Rosada. But I think that Noisy took that back more or less in a later post (I cited part of it earlier).
And anyway, I fully agree with what Trojan and Lightangel said. It's not our businesss if Noisy's intentions are platonic or not and he is not here to be judged or admonished.

[trojan]

Hmm, seems I crossed posts with you. Who knows, maybe that was a good thing.

Anyway, I still recommend "show me her purpose" from a higher perspective, and "how to proceed with my wife". I'd interpret 59.1.2 (42) as how to proceed.

My interpretation of that answer is that you need to delve deeply within yourself to unlock what she is touching in your psyche and surrender to it. Having surrended to it, you can communicate with her about the soulmate feeling (61.2) you are feeling, which has the potential to enrich your life. That does not necessarily mean you should run off with her. Look closely at her purpose in your life and how to proceed with your wife. Soulmates come into our lives to teach a spiritual lesson, not necessarily to be our life partners.

Your're confusing me Autumn as here a few posts ago you seemed to be actively encouraging Noisy to look at this relationship from a higher perspective, indeed you suggest the question "show me her purpose from a higher perspective". When he asked the question you suggested you said "don't involve in vain speculations about what is her purpose in my life " :confused:

Now in your last post you say that its the inability to appreciate the inner reality of another that leads to the delusion there is a higher spiritual purpose in the affair.
Seems to me you've taken opposing stances in the space of a few posts ?

As it is none of us even truly know its a delusion. Your responses are clearly relating to something in your own experience, its like you are heavily identifying with the wife even though you don't know how their relationship is at all.

If someone else was reacting as you are you would see it straight away. When I do it next you can point it out to me - that will be my come uppance for pointing it out to you :rolleyes:

[rosada]

One of the great things about having a group of us willing to post our thoughts is we are going to have different perspectives. LightAngel, you may feel it would be inappropriate for you to give Noisy the sort of feedback he got from Autumn, but she was telling him how she sees it from where she's standing and that's what she's supposed to do. I'm feeling tweaked that Martin has implied my interpretation of the hexagrams is unrelated to what noisy has told us about himself. I think everything I've said in responce to his questions can be found in the hexagrams, but what the heck, Martin is just telling us how he sees it. But more important than whether we're supposed to be polite or blunt with our readings, the bigger question is why are we studying the I Ching? What are we doing these readings for? To improve the mores or to help someone cheat on his wife? Sure everyone that thinks noisy's plotting to have an affair is a really dumb idea could just keep quiet, but why should we? Indeed, as Autumn pointed out, everything in the hexagrams can be easily interpreted to mean "This ain't a good idea." Should she remain quiet just because that's probably not what noisy wants to hear? Of course not. If Willowfox or Martin or dobro sees it differently, let them speak up. But as long as we're polite, I feel it's best everyone speak freely.

[autumn]

Also, I don't think that love for your children is comparable to love for your partner... you might be more attached to your partner than to your kids... but people fall out of love with their partners a LOT more often than they fall out of love with their kids. It's in fact a bit against nature to fall out of love with your kids. But that is just my opinion and would in fact love to hear other opinions about this..

I addresssed that here:
marriage has many components, and some aspects of the relationship are not about real, true, love, BUT real, true unconditional love must be one part of it. It must be the bedrock for everything else.

I do not- and have not- judged anyone. But it's insinuated that I am "projecting" onto the "bad male". Why would that be? It's noone's business, but my ex-husband and I were very faithful to each other for ten years, and I still love him (in an unconditional, not romantic) way. I was seventeen when we got married and he was nineteen. So actually, you're projecting something on to me.

But of course- it's not my business. I think the affair and divorce sound like superb ideas. I think you should start right away. As you said- 48.5 is positive, and the Yi has never lied, so by all means. Don't let youself be judged. Commitment isn't all it's cracked up to be, you know.

[rosada]

Our emails crossed, martin. I no longer feel tweaked. Thank you.

[autumn]

When I said, "from a higher purpose", it meant (and I thought quite obviously) for him to examine what she was entering his life to teach him. And as I said in the same post, that does not necessarily mean the purpose is for him to leave his wife.

So, how can that possibly be confusing? What I meant is that she is triggering something internal in him. He should look at that.

[martin]

What I meant is that she is triggering something internal in him. He should look at that.

I agree. I guess we differ only in this respect that I got the impression that Noisy understands this very well.

[trojan]

When I said, "from a higher purpose", it meant (and I thought quite obviously) for him to examine what she was entering his life to teach him. And as I said in the same post, that does not necessarily mean the purpose is for him to leave his wife.

So, how can that possibly be confusing? What I meant is that she is triggering something internal in him. He should look at that.

He knows she is triggering something internal in him ! Hes stated that quite clearly. He has come here to this forum for the purpose of 'looking at it' and you have told him not to as he according to you will be using 'higher purpose' as a reason to to 'cheat on his wife'.

Why should she be entering his life to teach him something anyway ? I hate this view everything is not good enough just in itself it has to be part of some grand scheme of lessons. I don't believe in that - thats irrelevant I know but i state it because you seem to present it as some sort of fact rather than just your belief system. Maybe them meeting is just life living for the hell of it, does it have to be part of some dreary celestial curriculum.

'Triggering something internal' sounds like indigestion.

[autumn]

He has come here to this forum for the purpose of 'looking at it' and you have told him not to as he according to you will be using 'higher purpose' as a reason to to 'cheat on his wife'.

Thank you for explaining to me what I said, rather than trying to understand what I said. I needed you to tell me what I meant. I feel as if I have been straightened out now and am no longer confused, because you have clarified my meaning for me.

And now, of course, he and everyone else can ignore what I actually said, because You say I said not to examine what he said.

That's an interesting dynamic you have.

[trojan]

Thank you for explaining to me what I said, rather than trying to understand what I said. I needed you to tell me what I meant. I feel as if I have been straightened out now and am no longer confused, because you have clarified my meaning for me.

.

Good, you did seem a tad contradictory.

[willowfox]

"asking whether I should talk to her and explain what I feel. Here's what I got - 59 to 42.

Hex 59.1 suggests that you should talk to her and explain so that the issue is out in the open and therefore there will be no misunderstandings or conflict.

Hex 59.2 as you are feeling a bit lost you should make all haste to clear away any problems, so get rid of your doubts and confusion, be happy and discuss the matter with her.

Hex 42 again suggests that it is the right to do do, to reach out to her and explain how you feel, it will benefit both you and her, very favourable.

[noisy_carpet]

Sorry, people, I didn't intend I really didn't want to start such a storm. I only looked through the thread briefly and can I please answer to some of you concerns. Autumn, you're really a little harsh on me. I don't think I deserve it. What I feel is not about sex at all, it 's more like realising that you've been living without an arm or a leg without noticing it and it aches a lot. Sex is not important by itself, if you love somebody it's great anyway, if you don't why do you need it?
1. I'm 31, daughter's 9, married for almost 9 years now, NEVER cheated on my wife. Never needed to. Always loved her.
2. Two years ago I learned completely by accident that my wife had a relationship with her former boy friend for almost 5 years in the row. To say I was devastated is to say nothing. Actually I lost a year of my life. First time in my life I was unable to overcome depression, turned for professional help. Took tons of pills, which only made everyhting worse. Nevertheless, decided to give us both another chance, most of all for the sake of the child. I really tried to understand why it all hapenned - nothing special really - I just worked too much, she spent too much time at home.Just the normal way the world goes. I don't think my decision back then was that masculine. I never thought about any revenge or anything, because it leads nowhere. I also gained smth out of this story - I'm a lot more mature now, lot more amotionally stable. So the things got pretty normal from the 06 on and then all of a sudden I got this call. And now I just sit and wonder why? Whatever the outcome will be here I will lose. So I'm just trying to understand what's the lesson now.
Sorry if smth's unclear, I don't get a lot of sleep lately and the mind's just a bit blurry.
I'll try not to bother you anymore, just needed to talk to somebody.
Thank a lot again everyone. I'll let you know whatever happens.

[noisy_carpet]

one more thing I forgot - before it all hapenned with my wife two years ago, I felt that smth was wrong about her and I asked her several times if there's anything or anyone bothering her. She always told no. Still when everything became clear I accepted my part of responsibility.
When my friend called me I told my wife that I got this call, because I remembered how hard it smashes when your closest lie to you. And she just immediately said I have to proceed with my friend if I want to. Also said she didn't want to hear about it again. I can't blame her, I know how hard it is, but it's not my fault - I wasn't looking for the person, never tried to find out anything about her, tried as hard as I could to forget her. But as they say, if you want to make God laugh, tell him about your plans.

[noisy_carpet]

willofox, thanks, that's what I gather.

[noisy_carpet]

rosada, thanks a lot, this a very insightful interpretation. Just like I wrote in my last post on the 5th page, I never had any real doubts about my marriage. When I said that what's happening is happening inside of me only, I meant that what happened hit me very deeply and I just cannot think about anything but her. Hopefully, this longing will go away, who knows.

[noisy_carpet]

martin, yes, I agree, that's already happened, I didn't struggle a lot with this reading, it's one of the most straightforward ones I ever got. Thanks!

[noisy_carpet]

autumn, you probably see now that the question on how I should proceed with my wife is a little irrelevant here, this is why I didn't need to ask this question. I know the answer already.

[noisy_carpet]

rosada, to your post #37 - I understand that there's nothing benificial here by definition, whatever happens and whatever I do it's a definite lose-lose situation. Keeping the family unbroken is a natural answer and I have no problems with it, but is this the essense? What if I just decide to forget about what happened, just let it go. Sooner or later it'll just come back, as you said and it may be even worse. So I just feel I need to do smth, but I'm not sure why and what. Being blunt will be disastrous not only for me, but also for her and I want to avoid it. It could have just an accidental call and if that's the case it'd be really stupid to give sort of soap-opera feel.
You're right, all the hexs suggest that's it's all more around wrapping things up, rather than starting smth new, so I just need to talk to her one last time. Seems like the right thing to do.

[autumn]

autumn, you probably see now that the question on how I should proceed with my wife is a little irrelevant here, this is why I didn't need to ask this question. I know the answer already.

Actually, I don't think this could be any less clear based on what you've said. On the one hand, you say your marriage is painful, and that she has been unfaithful to you, and you have been depressed over it, and then on the other hand you say I never had any real doubts about my marriage. When I said that what's happening is happening inside of me only, I meant that what happened hit me very deeply and I just cannot think about anything but her. Hopefully, this longing will go away, who knows.

It seems you have a lot to deal with in your marriage, and yet you don't want to examine if leaving or staying is right for you. Instead, you want to examine the situation that you have the very least amount of control over, your ex-girlfriend. I gave you my interpretation of what your readings point to, but none of that helps you decide what to do about your marriage.

This is my last post for this thread. I must withdraw for my own reasons. I hope you can find some clarity.

Addendum: Let me add this in this last post to avoid any further conflict with anyone who might be critical of the approach I was trying to take. When I advised asking the questions that I did, I did so assuming that a)the question of "what is her purpose in my life" is an open question, and cannot really be understood fully without the answer to both the questions, 'how to proceed with her', and 'how to proceed with my wife'. Because you didn't respond to the question about your wife, I assumed there were no issues in your marriage, based on your statement that you had never thought of cheating on her before. In that case, I thought it was most appropriate to make the points about unconditional love that I made. Those points still hold true, but maybe they don't fully address all of the issues you are dealing with right now.

[lightangel]

One of the great things about having a group of us willing to post our thoughts is we are going to have different perspectives. LightAngel, you may feel it would be inappropriate for you to give Noisy the sort of feedback he got from Autumn, but she was telling him how she sees it from where she's standing and that's what she's supposed to do. I'm feeling tweaked that Martin has implied my interpretation of the hexagrams is unrelated to what noisy has told us about himself. I think everything I've said in responce to his questions can be found in the hexagrams, but what the heck, Martin is just telling us how he sees it. But more important than whether we're supposed to be polite or blunt with our readings, the bigger question is why are we studying the I Ching? What are we doing these readings for? To improve the mores or to help someone cheat on his wife? Sure everyone that thinks noisy's plotting to have an affair is a really dumb idea could just keep quiet, but why should we? Indeed, as Autumn pointed out, everything in the hexagrams can be easily interpreted to mean "This ain't a good idea." Should she remain quiet just because that's probably not what noisy wants to hear? Of course not. If Willowfox or Martin or dobro sees it differently, let them speak up. But as long as we're polite, I feel it's best everyone speak freely.

Rosada, I completely agree that everybody should express their opinions freely and politely. And I think everybody has done so. I just thought that Autumn's post sounded a bit angry and I felt I knew where she was coming from. Not from personal experience, but rather from collective experience. We've seen this kind of situation many times and 999 times out of 1000 things are the way we assume them to be.

But my point was that we don't really know noisy carpet's situation too well and I think that, while it's nobody's duty or inclination to "help him cheat on his wife", if he comes here for advice or maybe just for help on how to read the lines, I don't think he deserves to be called 'dishonest' or to tell him that he doesn't love his ex-gf or his wife because his is a selfish love... I just don't see that in the hexagrams and I don't know enough about his situation to know that either. It sounded a bit angry and I just wanted to express my opinion about that.

[rosada]

Thanks for clarifying, Lightangel. It is so frustrating with posting how we are limited to communicating just with words. No facial clues or voice intonations allowed! Sometimes it feels we're being judged not by our understandings or intentions, but by our abilities as short story writers. And me such an imaginative speller! Anyway..

Well, noisy, thank you for giving us the background.

Best wishes,
rosada

P.S. Incidentally, I think you miss read my post #37. I was not suggesting that YOU should be blunt, I was commenting on the postings of people here giving you feedback, that some posters tend to try to be very gentle and others simply say it as they see it. I was saying that some posters are blunt. I think it maybe significant that you missed that point, noisy. I mean, from the way you've expressed yourself and from what you've told us about your life I get the impression that you keep a lot inside, don't tell the full story, don't ask questions, blame yourself, just suck it up and soldier on. The result being you are misunderstood and you misunderstand the people around you. Coming from a broken home myself, I suspect this dates back to childhood. I came from a family where Mom and Dad never argued and so not only did I never learn how to fight and make up, I never learned to recognize there was a problem, I just thought I was genetically depressed. That is, I didn't know how to start a dialog, so I just figured something was wrong with me. I think you're doing something similar. For you to tell your wife you have ambivilant feelings for another woman and she tells you she doesn't want to hear about says SHE'S got the screw loose. SHE doesn't know how to communicate but that doesn't mean you're the one that has to adjust. Again I agree with Autumn. You don't just have to accept things the way they are at home. Ask questions. Renegotiate.

Auugh, don't you hate it when they put everything in the post script?

[miakoda]

Noisy,

That must have been difficult to ride along that bumpy road of postings about your life. Forums are a new entity in some ways. The rules are being written as we go. With the limited words, details withheld for the sake of privacy, and without the visual cues--the body language, the tone of voice, the demeanor of the participants--it's so easy to be misunderstood. Although I didn't post, I had been following this thread and went on a roller coaster of judgments myself. I will certainly try to learn from it.

You've gone through a lot in your marriage. It's good that you have the support of the Yi Jing, which can help to guide your conduct. Although you got knocked about a bit here, I think you also found some good support. There are many caring people who devote a lot of time to trying to help others--boddhisatvas in training????

I'd just like to add this: You also have the option for you and your wife to enter counseling. You--and your child--are the ones who could benefit the most.

I hope it works out for you.

Miakoda

[noisy_carpet]

Miakoda - thanks, I do feel ashamed, just lost control for a second. I actually thought about deleting some of the posts I wrote, but finally deceided not to, because what was done was done. Don't think I have anything to add now, I'll just take it as a lesson. Thanks again.

[noisy_carpet]

Miakoda - what actually may make things a little more difficult is the fact that I'm not a native English speaker, so there may have been some inconsistencies in what I wrote just due to the bad use of vocabulary.

[noisy_carpet]

Rosada, thanks for clarifying your point, it makes perfect sense. I still think I overeacted here. Sorry if it hurt you somehow.

[miakoda]

Noisy,

I hadn't even plugged in the notion that this might not be your first language. It's a good point to remember that those who are writing to the forum are not only like cranes in the yin, revealing their hearts and their lives, but they might have language barriers and a variety of cultural differences.

So, perhaps marriage counseling isn't part of your culture the way it is in mine? Where you live, there might be stigma attached to it or you might even have difficulty finding an experienced, effective counselor. Then, I suppose, at least you have the Yi Jing (the most ancient of counselors). But in addition, I think you now have many sympathetic--and maybe some empathetic--listeners who will try to help.

All the best,

Miakoda

[noisy_carpet]

Miakoda -
no, I mostly live in London and marriage counselors are a common thing here. Frankly, I just don't think they may help a great deal. I had an experince with psychologists two years ago and I have to admit that although they really tried to help me it didn't work that well. The problem that you're having will only go away when you're ready to accept the reality in its fullness. Like I said it hurts, but on the flipside you're becoming more mature, you're stepping to yourself and that's your reward.
Also, I do appreciate everyone's help and sympathy. Again, I'm really sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. I need to be more reserved I guess.

[rosada]

More reserved? Oh not, not at all! The opposite. More forthcoming! There's a saying in America, "Don't go to bed angry," meaning kiss and make up before you go to sleep. But there's newer version of this idea that says, "Don't go to bed angry, stay up and fight!" It means, don't go to bed angry, but don't just stuff your feelings. Keep talking till you get things ironed out.
I felt very uneasy doing this reading because I felt I was aiding and abetting you doing something behind your wife's back. I suspect that was a biggie for others too. Yet your first hexagram, 54.1, literally said the wife knows about the concubine (In Wilhelm anyway), and now it turns out this fits, that you had told your wife about the phone call. But we didn't recognize this right off and thus all the back and forth discussion. So you see, it wasn't that you should not have been more reserved, but rather to recognize that there maybe need for clarification, and to be confortable hearing all the feedback even though it might have been off center because this gives you guidance as to where there was the miscommunication and then you can clear it up. It would have been very unusual if we would have all understood your situation right off the bat!
Of course, perhaps ultimately it is not necessary or even desirable for The Reader to know the finer details of a situation, but few of us are at that lofty peak yet ;-)

[autumn]

/
'Triggering something internal' sounds like indigestion.