Help with my pizza delivery [Archive]

micheline

September 29th, 2005, 02:37 AM

In my experience, the oracle is kind, compassionate, and patient. truthful always.

YET, i will say if I question TOO much, the answers can get muddy and maybe even nonsensical, not too meaningful for me.

Someone here once said the Yi "went silent" for them for a period of time. I can understand that. I think it could happen in extraordinary circumstances...a lesson to be learned? Maybe only the "oldest" souls would experience that on rare occasions?

but if Dobro is saying that there are some questions not worthy of the Yi's time or response, I would say I disagree also. If I REALLY asked about a delinquent pizza delivery, 12 would tell me the guy was in traffic or something similar. It would not be giving me 12 as a way to say "I won't answer that question" because no question is too silly if you really really want to know.

also, if people are new to the I Ching (or even not so new) and they ask here for help with an intepretation, that can be a good thing. Because they get the voice of all the many "seasoned" diviners who speak from a familiarity with many texts and personal experiences.

That said, There is nothing that can beat the process of developing one's own relationship with divination...collecting texts, asking and intuiting, getting a personal feel for hexagrams and how they speak to your heart. Somebody else's read can be a jumpstart, but it cannot replace the kind of KNOWING you start to experience when the Yi becomes your own personal friend and guide.

This board has added deeper flavor and more amazing color to my interpretations, but my most poignant readings are a matter between me and my guide...it all lines up - mind, body, emotion/ spirit - like the windows on a slot machine. JACKPOT. It's a treasure.

micheline

September 29th, 2005, 02:39 AM

Oh, when questioning too much, I have also gotten on numerous occasions: 21.6
which to me usually means YOU ARE NOT LISTENING, DINGBAT!

auriel

September 29th, 2005, 08:22 AM

the oracle cant break, all the moving parts are in your own brain.

one purpose of the oracle is to strip away personal peconceptions of meanings. we may indeed build layers of interpertation to protect our egos from the truth. its my faith that the oracle properly studied will break these down too eventually. when dealing with other interperters you can run up against their temporary prejudices, but all and all multiple interpertations can open new avenues
all the lines have internal and external links simultaeously. the process of sorting these connections out, really leads to insight

femke

September 30th, 2005, 10:04 PM

Dear Dobro: what happened to your pizza?

dobro

October 4th, 2005, 12:13 AM

It got used as an example of how not to deliver pizza.

lightangel

October 4th, 2005, 12:57 AM

Dobro,

why do you think that the Yi gets annoyed or refuses to reply if you ask 'frivolous' questions?

I ask a lot of questions, many of them not very important and I always, or almost always, get meaningful responses..

In fact, I just asked.. should I post that question? and guess what I got: 35.4->23
I don't care what it means, I think it's very funny.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

jte

October 4th, 2005, 05:51 AM

That *is* funny. Careful, the technique is catching.

- Jeff

lightangel

October 4th, 2005, 02:02 PM

Jeff,

I don't know what you mean by the technique.. in case you think I made it up, I did get 35.4

I think the Yi thinks it's funny too.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

jte

October 5th, 2005, 02:50 AM

Oh don't worry, I believe you 100% LA. :-)

The technique, IMO, was Dobro's approach when he started asking these funky questions of his. I think he kept getting 35.4 as a reflection of what he was doing at the time.

(IOW, IMO 35.4 represented *what he was doing* - posting these seemingly trivial questions in a roundabout effort to ... well, to do whatever he was trying to do by posting them (I'm still not clear on that)).

And yes, I do agree with you that your answer was ye olde Yi sense of humor cropping up...

- Jeff

lightangel

October 5th, 2005, 03:21 AM

Well, this is interesting now because, from the very start, I have believed that Dobro did not really ask those questions and did not get those answers. I think he was just kidding.. I think..

He's awfully quiet now but I wish he would clarify that.. am I too.. cynical?? Will you, Dobro??

bruce

October 5th, 2005, 03:32 AM

laughin softly here... Angel, I did exactly what you're now doing RE: 35.4. I started a thread in Open Space on 35.4. Then without realizing it, I myself had become 35.4: questioning, requisitioning, looking here and there... like a busy little mouse. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/footinmouth.gif http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif

It's hard not to put a Personage behind the Yi. There's more to humor than neuron reflexes. It still astounds me.

lightangel

October 5th, 2005, 04:23 AM

Yeah, the thread with the stealth bomber and the squeaky squirrel.. (looked it up just now)http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

So, the Yi was trying to tell me something, maybe to not be a busy little mouse.. hmmm..

I do wonder if Dobro had a reason for picking this line or if he did it at... random! I predict that.. he won't tell!

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5305.jpg

dobro

October 7th, 2005, 05:53 AM

Lightangel - I didn't really ask those questions of the Yi. I used the 35.4 line because my understanding of it is a little bit along the lines of the Yi telling you: "Oh come on - get real - shape up!"

Which is how I feel when people use the oracle for things they could figure out either on their own or by asking somebody else who knows. Things like: "Am I pregnant?" or "What does my girlfriend *really* feel about me?"

When I posted the series of four threads, I was just having fun. So when I started to see how seriously some people were taking what I was posting, I was amazed - I thought it would be obvious I was cracking jokes. Or perhaps being funny is actually passive aggressive behavior. Dunno. I thought it was just being funny.

lightangel

October 7th, 2005, 02:15 PM

Well, to me it was obvious that you were having fun, but maybe it was because of the way I "saw" the threads, like all at one time. But I can see how if somebody sees the first one, on its own, they might think it's for real, and then they see the next one, and only by the time they get to the fourth one they might start thinking this is strange..

I thought it was funny. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

But I still think that you can ask any question you like of the Yi and you might get a response that is valid in some way. Maybe there are different Yis for different people (I know that has been speculated in this forum). Maybe my Yi is nicer than your Yi! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif. It played along with you and gave me a 35.4 when I asked about this.

I didn't follow the "passive aggressive" bit but I don't think being funny is passive aggressive. I think funny is good. But.. what about your pizza.. did you really get 12??? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif

heylise

October 7th, 2005, 06:11 PM

I think Yi answers any question, even when you ask many times, but it depends on you if you get the answer. If you think you are doing something wrong, or if you don't believe Yi will answer silly questions, or whatever other reason to doubt the answer, then no answer will make sense.

LiSe

lightangel

October 7th, 2005, 06:29 PM

That makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe you need to be a little 'innocent'.. just enough to believe that you can get an answer.

I can look at it as if I'm talking to a friend. I might ask my friend: "Am I pregnant?" and they most likely won't say "get a pregnancy test" or they will say that but they will also understand the anxiety or the desire behind my question.. and they'll address that in a supportive way. A little later I might ask the question again and they might laugh with me or repeat the words of support they just said.. that's what you would expect from a friend.

bruce

October 7th, 2005, 06:33 PM

I didn't know angels got pregnant!

lightangel

October 7th, 2005, 06:37 PM

Well, where did you think little angels came from??? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

But I was using that just as an example!!!

bruce

October 7th, 2005, 06:40 PM

huh.. hadn't thought of that one http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/uhoh.gif

Yes, of course you were. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

lightangel

October 7th, 2005, 06:45 PM

I guess it was a bad example.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lame.gif

Because, you see, baby angels are delivered by storks. You didn't think angels have to go through all those indignities involved in actually creating a baby!, did you? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/mischief.gif

bruce

October 7th, 2005, 07:14 PM

Indignities? I thought they were heavenly pleasures. Well, except the giving labor part. It is a strange image to ponder... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/irked.gif

lightangel

October 7th, 2005, 07:33 PM

Oh, I was not referring to heavenly acts of love, no.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5318.gif

But.. if you think only labor is bad, you must have never been pregnant before!!

bruce

October 7th, 2005, 08:34 PM

You?ve got me there! I've been pregnant in a 44 way though. Does that count? The mood swings, morning sickness.. never had achy breasts though. No, I'll concede to your point?. Happily, I might add! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

val

October 7th, 2005, 08:39 PM

How is one pregnant in a 44 way? I'm still clamoring for as much information as I can about 44.

Thanks!

Love,

Val

bruce

October 7th, 2005, 08:59 PM

Babies are born out of passion. At least most of the time.

bruce

October 7th, 2005, 09:07 PM

Realized that was an incomplete response.

Babies being birthing of change. "No guts, no glory" kind of thing. An artist doesn't always find their inspiration in pretty or easy things. It isn't by formula only that they create. Someone said 'it's an artist's obligation to suffer.' This is like carrying a child, and it's largely what 44 means to me.

lightangel

October 7th, 2005, 09:42 PM

And you get morning sickness???
Then it counts, Bruce, IT COUNTS!! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
Just like an artist, it is a mother's obligation to suffer.

dobro

October 7th, 2005, 09:49 PM

Hi Lise

"I think Yi answers any question, even when you ask many times, but it depends on you if you get the answer. If you think you are doing something wrong, or if you don't believe Yi will answer silly questions, or whatever other reason to doubt the answer, then no answer will make sense."

Yeah, I can see the sense of that - in other words, the Yi doesn't distance itself from a foolish user; a foolish user disqualifies themself. (Often by asking too many questions.)

And yet although I think that what you say is true, I also think the Yi is a bit like God (or maybe it *is* God, or an angel or something). And although all this depends on what your idea of God is (and the best idea to have of God is no idea at all), your attitude toward God determines how much 'distance' there is between you and God and it determines how much 'divinity' there is in your life. So, depending on your attitude and behavior, you can decrease the distance between you and God and increase the divinity in your life. (I know, I know - God is one, so there is no distance between you and God except in your imagination... these things are so hard to talk about.) Similarly...I think...depending on your attitude and behavior, you can screw up the chances of a good clear reading of the Yi. You 'disqualify' yourself. Whether you disqualify yourself in your own eyes or in 'God's eyes' - I don't know - these are mysteries to me. Similarly, whether a foolish user disqualifies themself in their own eyes, or in the 'Yi's eyes' - I don't know. And I don't much care, compared to the question of how to avoid disqualifying myself by wrong use of the oracle.

You know, you can abuse drugs, sex, people - just about anything can be misused. You can abuse the oracle too. YMMV

val

October 7th, 2005, 10:17 PM

Bruce...

I would love it if you would start a thread about the 'you gotta suffer to be beautiful' part of 44 and expound on it a little more... share any of your 44 experiences in that regard. I am just so curious about the hexagram. I know there is more than meets the eye in any translation with this one because of a question the Yi answered with it.

I know I ask a lot. But I have no expectations. I will understand completely if you don't choose to go into it any further.

Thanks.

Love,

Val

bruce

October 8th, 2005, 12:05 AM

Val, that's about as far as I could take it without just flappin' my gums. I'm not sure about the 'beautiful' part, though. The artist metaphor was only an example. The same dynamic could apply to buying a house or car that's a bit over the budget, one that you know you've just 'got to have!' One that makes you toss and turn at night. Temptation is an interesting thing. It could bring ruin, or it might bring something life giving.

lightangel

October 8th, 2005, 12:07 AM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

your attitude toward God determines how much 'distance' there is between you and God and it determines how much 'divinity' there is in your life<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I like that Dobro. Precisely because of that, I think that if your attitude is too reverent then you are creating the distance. I think that feeling some questions are too silly or two copious is a little bit too reverent.

OTOH, I don't think that Yi is God. Well, God is everything, but if he chose to communicate with us in such a way, I would expect him to make it less complicated. He could make it less complicated, you know.

What does YMMV mean?

kevin

October 8th, 2005, 12:17 AM

Hi Val

You've got me thinking.

There is a weird sort of beauty in 44.

Ever seen the Film 'Hero'?

A film of people (in the Chin Dynasty) Trying to do good... but there is a dreadful / beautiful fatefulness to the story... Where their well thought out plans turn back on them. But even then things turn in a way which they use to express their ideals and the beauty of their lives.

The photography is pretty stunning too.

A thoughtful

--Kevin

bruce

October 8th, 2005, 12:30 AM

"He could make it less complicated, you know."

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif From the mouths of babes and angels! Gotta love it.

kevin

October 8th, 2005, 12:31 AM

Oh, I should say - the trailers make it look like a Kung Fu type film.

Nah, there are fine legalist, Daoist and Confucian threads woven through...

Also the fight scenes are mainly symbolic / choreography - So much so that in one fight there is an old man playing music and they stand and imagine the fight instead of doing it.

It is about some people determined to forge their destiny and overthrow the Chin Tyrant? How Fate steps in and how they reform their destiny to adjust? then fate steps in again? and they reform? and fate? and? it is a film about Nobility of purpose in a changing world.

Now where have I come across that before!

--K

some of the most beautiful, original, and natural film shooting I have seen in many years.

matt

October 8th, 2005, 12:47 AM

LightAngel, in whatever form we see God/The Source/Greater Powers, they do make it less complicated. The oracles are meant to be a guide, not a way of life. The oracle helps unlock dormant potential, and once the fires are burning and we can hear the silence within us whispering, the oracles job is fulfilled.

Ant answer the oracle provides us with, is already within us trying to be heard. Because our inner noise and conditioning often prevent us from realising our own truths, we turn to external methods such as divining to help clarify our minds and hearts. In my eyes, the oracle is not something separate from us, it is simply a trigger to arousing the power lying inside us all. It is ourselves speaking to...ourselves. And when we grasp the inherent beauty of its message, then ultimately we will let the oracle go altogether, it will no longer be needed to serve our purpose of questioning. We will know how to listen to the answers without it.

freemanc

October 8th, 2005, 12:52 AM

YMMV...your milage may vary.

This was a very pleasant thread to read, friends.

No grand comments to add; I have a cold and I'm feeling sorry for myself.

Also have been puttering with 44, because it was mentioned in this thread.

Where did the "you have to suffer to be beautiful" idea come from?

peace to all, esp. Val & Kevin...

FC

bruce

October 8th, 2005, 01:19 AM

Not from me, Free. I quoted the old saw "it's an artist's obligation to suffer". First time I heard it was from my (then) wife's girlfriend, some 30 years ago. I thought it was an odd thing to say. Not so much anymore, though. Ask the likes of James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley or Muddy Waters. Just comes with the territory.

Hope you feel better soon.

val

October 8th, 2005, 03:52 AM

Hi Freeman...

"You have to suffer to be beautiful" is a saying my mother-in-law brought from Jewish eastern Europe with her... that basically means the same thing Bruce is saying, but on a more superficial level. And I know what Bruce is saying. Some of my best work was done when I was trying to work through heartbreak.

Love,

Val

val

October 8th, 2005, 03:59 AM

Kevin...

I went and looked up "Hero" after I read your post. Now I must see it! Did they show the book burning and the rationale for it in the movie? That must have been an incredible time in China's history.

Thanks for the heads up!

Love,

Val

val

October 8th, 2005, 04:06 AM

Bruce...

You said... "Temptation is an interesting thing. It could bring ruin, or it might bring something life giving."

That life giving part... that's the part I think they don't even bother alluding to in the book. That, I believe, is what I've been missing.

The Yi has used 44 morre than once to describe the man that Freeman sees in the Left Breast thread... at the same time they've advised me to keep the home fire burning for him... as Freeman so astutely observed in the reading in the Left Breast thread.

Love,

Val

bruce

October 8th, 2005, 04:31 AM

Val, so are you saying you understand and agree with the possible life-giving-ness of 44, or that you don't? I'm a little confused here.

For me it's been one of those little but important secrets that Wilhelm and its clones have done more to conceal than to reveal. And yet it's so obvious. It took a bit of UNdoing on my part to see it so obviously, though. The moral idea of running or hiding from passion is completely against the life it is trying to preserve. Passion is power in the like of the eldest daughter of 44: Infringing the creative force, affecting the course of heaven, her only inner law is to conceive. This amounts to an earthy creation.

val

October 8th, 2005, 04:46 AM

Hi Bruce...

I'm saying I do believe you've revealed that illusive thing I've been looking for in 44. I knew there was something more positive than Wilhelm or even the original authors of the Zhouyi have committed to words... in fact they haven't even alluded to anything positive. I sincerely believe it's like you said... they've all done more to conceal than reveal the truth of 44. Fear?

The Yi wouldn't tell me 44 (repeatedly) about a man the universe constantly tells me to stay focused on. They haven't brought me all this way... they haven't readied me for someone who would be destructive to my life. That's why I've been searching for so long for more understanding of 44. I do believe I understand now.

Thank you.

Love,

Val

bruce

October 8th, 2005, 05:28 AM

Fear... yes, I think fear is part of what keeps beings feeling safe and in the right. And so is approval.

Your experience with 44 and the man is it. You could always play it safe, be supported by all sorts of logic, rightness and mores to do so. And yet.... what if?

kevin

October 8th, 2005, 10:34 AM

Hi Freeman

Thanks...

Hope you get through youre cold quickly.

but while you are suffering... You could try some fine art... it would prob. be very beautiful...

(Point taken http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif)

Get well soon

--Kevin

kevin

October 8th, 2005, 10:37 AM

No book burning Val...

I got to thinking about the film again last night...

I expect I missed a lot of the symbols in it... Spent too much time gawping at the photography!

Time to see it again I think.

Hope you enjoy it as much I did

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

--kevin

lightangel

October 8th, 2005, 03:41 PM

Matt,

I like your description of the oracle. That is how I perceive it but I could not put it into words.

jte

October 9th, 2005, 08:03 PM

"The Yi wouldn't tell me 44 (repeatedly) about a man the universe constantly tells me to stay focused on. They haven't brought me all this way... they haven't readied me for someone who would be destructive to my life. That's why I've been searching for so long for more understanding of 44. I do believe I understand now. "

I'm not saying the below *is* the case in your situation Val, however, consider:
If someone is, well, fairly messed up, you might need to be fairly "expansive" (looking for the right word here) to be in a position to help them. You might need to be able to roll with the punches they give you in order to bring the situation to a good outcome.

Of course that's a general statement - while I believe it's true, it might have nothing to do with your particular situation and 44 as it instantiates itself in your life. But I thought it was worth mentioning.

- Jeff

jte

October 9th, 2005, 08:08 PM

Matt, I must say I like your post as well. I'd just add that, IMHO, what the Yi connects you to (or *can* connect you to, at least) isn't only within. Part of it is within, but I think an important part is without as well. After all whatever may be latent inside of us, human beings didn't create the whole universe. We're just little tiny parts of it.

Food for thought, and again, what you did post was very well said, IMO...

- Jeff

dobro

October 10th, 2005, 12:07 AM

Matt - yeah, thumbs up. What you said said it really well.

"Because our inner noise and conditioning often prevent us from realising our own truths, we turn to external methods such as divining to help clarify our minds and hearts. In my eyes, the oracle is not something separate from us, it is simply a trigger to arousing the power lying inside us all. It is ourselves speaking to...ourselves. And when we grasp the inherent beauty of its message, then ultimately we will let the oracle go altogether, it will no longer be needed to serve our purpose of questioning. We will know how to listen to the answers without it."

You can put this one in the 'best of' archive, Hilary lol.

I don't think you let go of the oracle when you grasp the beauty of its message, though. I think you let go of it when you start to see the non-evident contours of situations without the help of the oracle. My understanding is that it starts to happen as you develop and evolve. I read 'Autobiography of a Yogi' recently. Amazing book. Describes a lot of amazing abilities that evolved people can manifest.

micheline

October 10th, 2005, 05:59 AM

Don't know where you live now, Dobro, (didnt you just move?) but FWIW, this man named Roy eugene Davis who is an ordained disciple of Paramahansa Yogananda(since 1951) is having a first international Kriya Yoga congress and Mediation Seminar in california on march 9-11 2006.

Davis is a really wonderful teacher and I love his books...he recently wrote one all about Paramahansa and his teachings/his time spent with him...Davis lives in georgia, and he opens his center there free of charge to anyone who wants to come and stay for awhile....he is definitely not in "the business" for the money, something I appreciate and find refreshing.
www.csa-davis.org/

I agree about the Autob of a yogi book..read that many years ago and was deeply affected by it.

val

October 10th, 2005, 06:53 PM

Jeff...

Thank you so much for your thoughts on 44. I thought about that same possibility this weekend.

I also thought about the possibility that it's him in that situation... that maybe he's the one mixed up with someone who's fairly well messed up. Maybe he has to see that and extricate himself from that first.

Love,

Val

val

October 10th, 2005, 09:24 PM

Bruce...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

You could always play it safe, be supported by all sorts of logic, rightness and mores to do so. And yet.... what if?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>This is definitely a part of it too! Thank you!

You could always play it safe, be supported by all sorts of logic, rightness and mores to do so. - That's the Crystal Merchant talking.

And yet.... what if? - That's the Alchemist talking.

I've tried the "sensible" logical route. It doesn't work when the heart knows what it wants. When the heart knows, it's voice is loudest. And the universe, the Soul of the World, very loudly supports the heart... at least in my case.

Love,

Val

bruce

October 10th, 2005, 11:09 PM

Val,

"And the universe, the Soul of the World, very loudly supports the heart..."

I think that's true. An old pastor friend had a favorite saying, "who you are speaks so loudly I can't hear a word you say." I think the Universe listens to who you are, which is your heart and soul.

"Love is eternal - the aspect may change, but not the essence. There is the same difference in a person before and after he is in love as there is in an unlighted lamp and one that is burning. The lamp was there and was a good lamp, but now it is shedding light too, and that is its real function. And love makes one calmer about many things, and that way, one is more fit for one's work." (Vincent Van Gogh)

val

October 11th, 2005, 03:12 AM

Bruce...

Thank you so much for the Vincent quote. I love it. You know he's my favorite artist, and no artist intrigues as much as he does.

Love,

Val

auriel

October 12th, 2005, 11:55 AM

hey all,

i am sneaking about these confabulations, stoking up on the warmth, and the nuts of wisdom. still waiting to share dobro's pizza though. i'll even pay something, if i must. . .

human beings are born with blinders on. we attend our tasks and interpert external events in light of current pre-occupations. for instance ask a soldier how to achieve peace, he will probably say, "by killing more people!". the book of changes, the oracle, is indispensible, it gives us a chance at seing more. just a chance. and you need to battle to get a glimse beyond. no one will ever have the whole at their fingertips, one can only hope to gain a certain fluidity of perspective. the truth of the cast can be twisted back into reaffirmations of our own needs but at what price?

these interpertations of old no. 44 are killing me, bruce, val. they are correct but. jeff is more to the point. look at it this way. one has prepared one's self and brought one's issues to court; or you've made yourself the best person you can and offer yourself to your lover, or to the army recruiting officer. then comes 44. you got something they want, and not necessarily what you want to give, either; and it'll be sucked out of you by the institution (or the kind of person signified). the text and lines are instructions on how to conduct yourself in those circumstances. if'n you do things right you'll find the melon 'neath the medlar. . .

love

bruce

October 12th, 2005, 04:11 PM

Auriel,

I think I understand what you're saying. The reason I've bent the 44 branch so much to the left is that it has most often been bent entirely to the right. You know: resist temptation, beware of the seductress of passion, all that stuff that makes 44 a 'bad' omen.

But do tell me, what does "if'n you do things right" mean? Right according to what or to whom? What standard do you refer to?

bruce

October 12th, 2005, 04:22 PM

You see, Auriel, I rather prefer juicy melons, not fluffy, nor hard with unripeness. That means things could get a little messy.

micheline

October 13th, 2005, 02:29 AM

"The rise of the inferior element is pictured here in the image of a bold girl who lightly surrenders herself and thus seizes power. This would not be possible if the strong and light-giving element had not in turn come halfway. The inferior thing seems so harmless and inviting that a man delights in it; it looks so small and weak that he imagines he may dally with it and come to no harm."

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5345.jpg

micheline

October 13th, 2005, 02:35 AM

uh-oh, thought this was a wolf..on second glance,maybe it is a fox...? oh well

val

October 14th, 2005, 12:36 AM

Hi Auriel...

Loved your post. I agree with you because of the hexagram statement in the ZhouYi that this is saying "Avoid the temptation." I just want to add my two knuts about a couple of things you said.

First of all... "human beings are born with blinders on." I know what you're saying, and I can understand why you'd think that... I've interacted with enough people who seem to be moving through life with blinders on... but I don't think so. I think most of us... a very large percentage of us, in fact... see things through colored lens, yes, but we are not all that blind. And I don't believe that most of the people wearing blinders were born that way. We wouldn't have progressed like we have if that were the case. In the age old nature vs nurture debate, I believe the 'blinders syndrome' is probably more nurture than nature. It's a learned behavior more than a natural "born" behavior, and one can choose to be blind or choose to go out and get as much 411 as one can get on anything one chooses.

"you got something they want, and not necessarily what you want to give, either; and it'll be sucked out of you by the institution (or the kind of person signified). " I really feel that statement is rather fatalistic. And I offer a simple alternative. It's so true that we constantly encounter people who want from us something other than we want to give. In fact, there are several posts right here on this forum I could point to that provide ample evidence to that effect. Speaking for myself, I've experienced a few people trying to tell me I don't really believe what I've stated I believe... there have even been a couple who have flatly told me what I believe is wrong... and I've watched them all throw angry little verbal fits or go into passive/aggressive communication mode when I've reiterate that I believe what I originally asserted rather than what they've proposed.

And I agree... it's true that they indeed will 'suck it out us'... IF we let them. But we all have choices. We have choices before going in, and we have choices as to how to respond (or react) to situations that arise after going in (usually if we miss something going in). We can let them suck it out of us... or we can hold on to it.

I decided to get the help of a professional about 20 years ago when I realized that *I* was responsible for my involvement in situations where "it was being sucked out of me." Every situation I was in... love, work, family... someone was "sucking it out of me." What I learned with the help of the professional was that if I didn't walk into that kind of situation (on my own two feet)... I created it. Twenty years later I find myself in more situations where they're not only NOT trying to suck it out me, but they're nurturing what I DO have and want to give. Of course, I still encounter those situations and people who will try... but not for long... unless they're incredibly stubborn... *grin* And I don't ever seem to get tired of holding my own with them. And I don't ever let their attempts interfere with how I feel toward them either. I rarely resent them any more.

That's why 44 is a very curious answer about a man that's supposed to be wonderful for me... with whom I'm supposed to achieve great things... on whom the universe endeavors on an almost daily basis to keep me focused (I'm not the kind of woman who thinks I NEED to be in a relationship, so I don't tend to focus on them as much as some other women). I'm not the kind of woman an alcoholic, drug abuser or any other kind of control freak (the types who live on what they suck out of others) would want to end up with (unless they don't really want to be an alcoholic/drug abuser/control freak and really want to take responsibility for themselves... for their actions and feelings)... because I'm not an enabler.

Love,

Val

bruce

October 14th, 2005, 01:40 PM

"What I must do is all that concerns me, not what the people think. This rule, equally arduous in actual and intellectual life, may serve for the whole distinction between greatness and meanness. It is the harder, because you will always find those who think they know what is your duty better than you know it. It is easy in the world to live after the world?s opinion; but the great person is the one who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." Ralph Waldo Emerson

auriel

October 14th, 2005, 03:08 PM

"It is easy in the world to live after the world?s opinion"

so fine true and usefull, and to think the man who wrote that is one of the few accessible philosophers- did he compromise? did Hume obfuscate?

val

October 14th, 2005, 07:39 PM

Hi Bruce...

Love it love it love it. Thank you.

You know I'm STILL curious about 44. I still believe there's more to it than is explicit or apparently implicit in the Zhouyi hexagram statement. You know my first post on the forum was January 6, 2003. I had been to LiSe's site... studying her calendrical gua illustrations... and while focusing on her images, asked when will the waiting end and got 13 to 44. 44 may or may not have been the post-summer solstice gua. Since then I've received 44 as an answer when I've asked for a description of the man that Alixe and Austin saw and other 'identifying' questions pertaining to this mysterious fellow.

*scratching head* I suppose time will tell.

Love,

Val

bruce

October 14th, 2005, 08:48 PM

Hi Val,

Time usually does tell, doesn?t it? Although not always what we expected to hear.

Let me share this about 44 on a personal level. 44 is very helpful to me when my life is lacking a challenge, when life becomes two-dimensional and drab. No matter how well (or not) I develop inwardly or ?spiritually?, I still need something to challenge me, to awaken my senses, to stir up the soup, in order to feel fully alive and present in the ?real world?. 44 is a wonderful grounding device; adding flesh to spirit, giving the sensual a place to live and the imagination a garden in which to flourish.

Let another call it whatever they wish. It?s my illusion or dream, my fantasy, my garden. And who knows what may manifest from it?

This sounds silly, but recently 44 was a new pair of ostrich leather cowboy boots. How vain! Oh, my rationale covered my ?flaw?, because they list for $339.95, and I could buy them on eBay for just $56! That?s just plain logical, right?! And that also fueled the need to have these boots ? what a bargain! hmmm. Well, I am enjoying wearing them. They give me a funny kind of boost. Nonessential, vain, image making, etc etc. but you know what? I ENJOY them! What a concept.

val

October 14th, 2005, 09:15 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

...they list for $339.95, and I could buy them on eBay for just $56! That?s just plain logical, right?!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>logical? logical??? It's logical like breathing is logical. You'd be outta your freakin' mind to pass up an opportunity like that! I do believe if you look identity up in the theasaurus you'll find that boots must be a synonym. I have a pair of Justins... white with inlaid silver leather that I'm having refurbished. I love them nearly as much as I love life.

Congratulations! That kind of shopping definitely gives you bragging rights!

Love,

Val

bruce

October 14th, 2005, 09:22 PM

lol! Thanks!

Sitting here, still thinking about this.

For most people, when is the "right" time to get married, or have a baby, or buy a house? Often the right time is never. That is to say, the time is most often filled with uncertainty and self doubt. And a huge temptation.

auriel

October 14th, 2005, 11:03 PM

val,

(once) 44 was for me a sexual encounter. i loved to get it. that fact and Bruce's post on the ostrich boots echoes my current interest: guaging the amount personal symbolism weighs on the balanced microcosm of the book of changes, or any idea system. i think it weighs a great deal. but i also think that the system itself (as in: our evolving understanding of it) generates friction against those personal values being co-ordinated to its interstices; and that these 'points of contention' can become the nexii of presentation for other deeper conflicts to 'present' themselves to consciosness.

when i go on vacation next month, i am going to take that last sentence with me.

let me start over.

it seems to me that i can see you blush when you talk about this guy- this lucky guy. you can't make me believe- but you can try- that you aren't saving some part of you just for him, and that that special side of you doesn't include as an adjunct (it is my contention that it does )your very vulnerability. and it may be your vulnerability because you can't quite see it.

in short, Bruce would never have got his boots if'n he didn't bid on them. it may well be an attribute of 44 that we have to seek it out- like you do those girls that you shouldn't bring home. [hey Bruce- remember, it is the feet that lead us to sin. . . and concerning fluffy, furry or bi-furctated melons- and mixed metaphors, too my definition of 44.5 would paralel the yiddish saying "an extra language learned is an extra soul acquired", if you get my drift- its applicable to boots and spheres of influence as well]

bruce

October 15th, 2005, 12:13 AM

Auriel,

I'm glad you mentioned vulnerability, because I agree it's a key element of 44. When we build a structure (social, spiritual, economic) around us to protect us from "sinning", that can serve to preserve our integrity, our job, our family, our religious beliefs or personal philosophies. What we then lose, however, is our vulnerability to be freely influenced. As a result we also lose our creativity, our receptivity to life's impulses and the 'will to power'. Such persons grow proud, arrogant and emotionally distant in their certainty that their way is correct and superior. But in reality, they have merely made a decision to remain out of reach of life's less tidy experiences and truths: all very safe and invulnerable.

auriel

October 15th, 2005, 12:53 AM

i have this picture of america, 400 million couch patatoes chanting in unison "we believe in free choice, we believe in free choice"

some vulnerability has to remain. the great english country estate still vulnerable to micheline's little fox. or perhaps rather the need to be vulnerable escalates, while enemies who are really victims are chosen for their weakness; in actuality it can become so that while building up walls and creating artifial enemies, our own atavistic urges, creeping from our sub-consciouses, get to devouring our souls.

its nice to think that some wild thing "so small and weak that he imagines he may dally with it and come to no harm" can still disrupt the kinds of sad set-piece lives you discribe.

you made me think about my own wall

auriel

October 15th, 2005, 01:15 AM

lemme just clear this melon point up quickly. if 44's a lover, by doing it right i mean you have to suppress yourself and accomodate her, know when to come forward when to hold back, based on her rhythems not yours; then you'll get a baby. if its the army you got to follow the code, and then you'll get that cushy little job; if its boots, you gotta learn to walk that walk. the thing is that at first it seems like she he it them were made for you, perfect fit, no adjustment neccessary. soon enuf however one realizes that one has a lot to learn.

bruce

October 15th, 2005, 01:20 AM

That's good. Like it a lot. Gonna think on that on the way up to Kingman.

val

October 15th, 2005, 05:08 AM

Gooooo-oooooood evening from LA Auriel...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

it seems to me that i can see you blush when you talk about this guy- this lucky guy. you can't make me believe- but you can try- that you aren't saving some part of you just for him, and that that special side of you doesn't include as an adjunct (it is my contention that it does )your very vulnerability. and it may be your vulnerability because you can't quite see it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Actually, I have no idea who this 'guy' is. I have no idea if I've ever known him before or if I'm yet to meet him. If he's the guy from my past I would like him to be then I've copied and pasted a paragraph I wrote about feeling vulnerable with him...

<blockquote>as part of my journey in Virginia, the men in grey helped me release pain and fear that obstructed my ability to trust and to love a man, a life partner, romantically, and, as a result, I experienced love for a man like no love I've ever experienced in my life. It washed over me. It filled me up. I was immersed in it. It was powerful. Love is powerful beyond anything you can imagine. And it WAS enlightment. It was pure trust... pure love. I was connected with him AND the universe. I was stripped naked of all my defenses... trusting .. my heart and soul were bare to him... trusting... I was absolutely and completely vulnerable... I trusted him. And I felt safe... with him.</blockquote>I would like the 'guy' to be him because he's the first man I've ever loved (besides the men in my family) that I've wanted to continue knowing after the break up. He's the man who taught me what it's like to be respected by a lover. No man before him respected me the way he did. Even though he's the man I would like this 'guy' to be, I'm not closing the door on other friendships, other options. I'm in 8.5 mode. I'm open to and look forward to the man who comes into my life or back into my life who will love me as much as he loved me and whom I will love as much as I loved him.

Being vulnerable, trusting, is a choice as well. I can choose to cloister myself and my heart away, never to experience the pain again I experienced when I lost him... it still hurts... even now as I type this... lump in my throat and stinging tears in my eyes at the mere thought of losing him... or I can choose to make myself available to love again, to risk the pain again, to trust again.

The choice is really easy because I quite naturally take responsibility for my own feelings any more. I don't make 'him' responsible. I don't blame him for how I feel about losing him. I don't say, "He hurt me." I say, "I feel hurt." I don't say he or anyone or anything sucked it out of me. Instead I say, "My choices got me where I am today." When I accept responsibility for my choices, I naturally accept responsibility for the emotions I feel as a result of my choices. That's the simple little alternative I was talking about earlier... keeping your power by being responsible for your own choices, actions and feelings rather than letting anyone "suck it out you."

Accepting responsibility for my choices is how I ended up on this forum. Accepting that I'd made a string of bad decisions and gotten myself into a bad situation and asking for help from beyond myself was the act that preceded the incredible journey of self-discovery I embarked on after I got here. The 'men in grey' came to me in my dreams in answer to my pleas for help. They illuminated my goal line for me and guided me to the center of being where I saw the obstacle that stood between me and my goal line, and I was able to get past it. The obstacle was pain that I'd been afraid to feel many many years ago. I felt it, and now I'm not afraid of pain any more. I'm not afraid of being vulnerable. I trust myself.

<blockquote>In relating to others, it is never the behavior of another person causing us to feel angry, or unkind, or blaming - it is our own unmet needs. We can identify the other person's behavior as the stimulus for our upset, but it is not the cause. Our feelings come from inside of us because we are needing something. No one can make us feel a certain way. To tell them they did so is to use guilt to coerce them, to try to make a person do what you want them to do. This is a form of violence.</blockquote>The Healing Art of Communication (http://www.trans4mind.com/counterpoint/relationships1.shtml) I haven't read this whole page yet. I've skimmed it, and I see it says a lot of what I've learned over the last 20 years... and then some. So I've printed it out to read at my leisure this weekend. I think you might find it interesting as well because it addresses the vulnerability you've expressed in your last few posts.

Love,

Val