2 and 17

[millie]

i asked about the best approach to take in a situation, and received 2 unchanging. i know 2 is about the earth, about receptivity, and about going with the flow of events rather than imposing my idea of direction. this all makes sense. but then I started to wonder how this 2 unchanging is different from 17 after all. isn't 17 also about following the flow rather than creating a direction? perhaps 17 is more about a mutual following? what would you say are the distinctions between these answers?

[bradford_h]

Hi Millie-
17 is a more active pursuit, like following clues and tracks and hints. The kind of following where you don't have any say in where you're being led is not good practice in 17. 02, meanwhile, might be better understood as acceptance rather than following.

[val]

WOW Brad...

You repeated my exact thoughts about 17 AND 2. 17 is an active pursuit. And 2 is about receptivity and acceptance and not imposing one's will on the direction of things as Millie said.

Love it... love,

Val

[seeker]

Thanks Brad, I wasnt the one who asked the question, but I have always had trouble with that hex. Now I know why, I was looking at following as following a person, a submissive doing what your told thing. You just opened up a whole new perspective on it for me.

[bradford_h]

Seeker-
In several of the hexagrams the main theme is ambiguous and culturally misunderstood in just this way, and the Yi text shows great care and sometimes takes several of the lines in attempting to set us straight. Following is one good example - this can be done mindlessly or with great intelligence. Modesty is another one, where the Yi distinguishes between self-effacement and authenticity. Some others are (with Wilhelm's titles): Youthful Folly, Innocence, Grace, and Abundance

[millie]

wow. this is great. i never heard of 17 as an active pursuit, but i can see that the following is indeed conscious and targeted. as for 02 really being acceptance, if I received that as an answer to "best approach" then would you say 02 unchanging is telling me to accept things as they are as an internal shift? does it mean that i should not make an assertive move, do not call or write, or simply that my calling and writing need to be accepting of things as is, rather than imposing some new possibilility?

[auriel]

DEFINATELY DON'T CHANGE NORMAL HABITS
be very aware of not letting sources freeze up because of unreceptiveness

[frank]

Hi Millie,

I think with 2 indeed the Yi is telling you to accept things as they are, and try to interact, give shape to the form you want the situation to transform by being humble and wait. (O my... I hate waiting, but a wise eye opener for me is the saying like: Think about your dreamhouse... and let the universe build it :-D) You only have to wait untill the building blocks of this situation are ready, as the ?other side? in this situation is not ready yet... Give it some time :-D.

Hang in there,

Hug.
Frank

[val]

Frank...

I loved your answer. I was just going to cut and paste "i should not make an assertive move, not call or write" from Millie's question... because I'm too direct... and you said it so beautifully. No sugar coating or stretching of the meaning, yet said so gently, tenderly and compassionately *sigh*.

Thank you.

Millie...

Heaven sends the rain. Earth receives it. Your friend is heaven, you are earth, the rain is the emails and calls.

Love,

Val

[frank]

O wauw Val, you make me blush... (whow, where's that red nutton...:-D)

[frank]

Ouch... I mean BUTTON :D...

[millie]

thank you frank and val. wow. but this now brings another question: how is 02 different from 05? perhaps it's the rain imagery that val used that has got me thinking here and a little confused. is the difference in attitude? is the difference in outcome? 05 is about waiting for something that will come. 02 is about being accepting of things as they are, and this acceptance brings rewards. is the difference just semantics? in 05 there is an active doing, in that it is WAITING. is there an active doing in 02? does 02 mean something will come? afterall, i wasn't given 33, or 52, or 36. i was given 02 and i want to fully live this approach.

[frank]

euh, whow, geeeh, that's something :-D... euh, 2 is about earth above earth, so form above form... perhaps not even in a leading role, but just let yourself be led... and 5 is about rain from heaven, that has not fallen yet... Rain in the Yi is about letting go the tension. There is tension in 2 as you are told to 'being led'... And there's tension in 5 of those clouds where no rain comes from (damn, that's 9 too :-D). Mmm, a good question Millie :-D! I think 5 has a more of 'in control' issue, by just doing other stuff while being in trust that it will be alright, and 2 it's ' being led'... Something like that?

Hug,
Frank

[millie]

auriel, you make a good point here also. do not let sources freeze up due to unreceptiveness. ok. but if i do nothing couldn't this come across as unreceptive?

[val]

Hi Millie...

This isn't easy to say without hugging you at the same time because it seems to me your anxiety level is really high regarding hex 2.

"does 02 mean something will come?"

No. It means to be receptive to and accepting of whatever happens, whether the situation goes the way you want it to or not.

Further, it's been my experience that any combination of hexagrams where 2 is the resulting hexagram means for me to be receptive and accepting of the action described in the primary hexagram. IOW, something or someone else is being active and I must be receptive to the action.... even if it's painful to accept, accept I must.

Love,

Val

[millie]

val, yes I feel a little anxious, more so i feel a great desire to listen to the yi clearly and accurately, because this situation is important to me. too often i don't fully listen, and i've later been sorry.

it's not at all painful to accept things as they are. i just want to be sure that's all i'm being asked to do for now. in fact, this person asked me for some information and i haven't yet responded, which i now realize isn't practicing 02 afterall, is it? no, i have to be led, and accept what's happening, and i need to provide an answer. the question for me was also how to provide this answer, and perhaps what else i may say, or do, or not. i guess 02 is telling me to answer and then just remain open.

[pakua]

It also seems to me, not only to be receptive, but also to be completely supportive. So in each situation, to do whatever seems necessary that gives a successful outcome to that situation, without even thinking about it.

So for example, today the other wants to go on a picnic, then you need to see what's missing, like food or utensils or whatever and try to get them. Then tomorrow the other wants to do something else, try to do what's necessary to make that a success.

Even if it's not particularly what you would have wanted to do...

[bradford_h]

Just an afterthought-
02 isn't necessarily a positing of weakness, and Yin can be considered a power in its own right.
For good or ill, the power we have over parts of the world, expecially technological, comes from being obedient to the laws of physics, of accepting facts as given, putting us on more solid ground.
The Yi refers to the mare, docile and accepting, but still a lot stronger than we are.

[bruce]

I don't see 2 as being entirely passive or submissive, as it seems most here are suggesting. Open, receptive, cooperative, yes, but 2 also carries and endures the burden and responsibility, whereas 17 initiates inspiration - giving and receiving. 'Least that's how I view it.

[millie]

yes, yes, accepting PLUS cooperative and supportive, that feels realy right. and it's active as well.

maybe i should have written about the situation. this question is about a relationship. of course! when i first asked yi to describe what's happening, i received 19.6 to 41. then i asked where we were headed and received 19.1 to 7. my final question was seeking advice about the best approach for me, to take with him. that's when i received 02 unchanging. so there is a richness happening here.

[val]

Hi Bruce...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I don't see 2 as being entirely passive or submissive, as it seems most here are suggesting.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>ACCCHHHH! I don't seen ANYONE here suggesting such a thing. I haven't seen either passive or submissive used once in this thread before this. In fact a word search yielded nothing for either word until your post. But then I may have missed something because I was reading others from my own view of 2.

It's not at all about being passive or submissive. It takes a hell of a lot of strength sometimes to be receptive and accepting actually... especially when one is feeling anxious... especially when one wants something so badly one just wants to wrest control of the situation and make it go the way one wants, whether one knows it's impossible to control another's feelings or not. Among other things 2 is about letting go of control... especially when it's about a relationship. This is experience talking *grin* I'm getting better though... really.

Hi Millie...

Yes that's how I see it too. Getting that information together for him is part of being receptive. Don't forget what the earth does with the rain it receives... it nourishes life.

Love,

Val

[millie]

val, i think bruce was saying that there was a theme in what people wrote, which is passive for sure. the accepting may be an internal shift, but the outward action people had described seemed to me to be NON-ACTION and therefore passive. bruce then introduced the receptive, cooperative piece. does this make sense? mostly i think we are all ont he same page.

[bruce]

? 02, meanwhile, might be better understood as acceptance
? 2 is about receptivity and acceptance and not imposing one's will on the direction of things
? if I received that as an answer to "best approach" then would you say 02 unchanging is telling me to accept things as they are
? "i should not make an assertive move, not call or write"
? 02 is about being accepting of things as they are
? but just let yourself be led
? No. It means to be receptive to and accepting of whatever happens, whether the situation goes the way you want it to or not.
? something or someone else is being active and I must be receptive to the action.... even if it's painful to accept, accept I must.
? Even if it's not particularly what you would have wanted to do...

Val, these statements can certainly mislead someone, if they?re not more deeply familiar with 2 or Yi in general. I dare say that even some who have practiced for many years still see 2 as having a purely passive contextual meaning. Other than Pakua?s statements, I saw nothing that referred to the mare aspect of earth. Hence my addendum.

[val]

Bruce...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"These statements can mislead someone"<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Okay. How? How can the first, second, third, fifth, seventh and eighth bullet point be construed as intimating passivity?

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=acceptance

There is not one event of passive(ity) on that page. And honestly, Bruce, I can't for the life of me see how you can read passivity into any one of those (I take exception, however, with the statement about letting yourself be led... that's 43.4). And I feel very strongly about this. One of the most important things I learned in therapy, one of the understandings that helped me grow the most was about acceptance. Acceptance is about giving up control. I'm not explaining these concepts any more. I've realized that people get them when they're ready to get them and not before, so I'm not wasting my breath any more. Instead, here's a url. I'll look for more later if I have time, but I think this site'll do it for now.

http://www.coping.org/control/uncond.htm

Love,

Val

[micheline]

maybe 2 is like the tao..you do without "doing" and everything gets done......the most potent form of action of all...
the statements could be misconstrued as "OKay, I won't DO anything" which is not helpful if one's mindset is stubborn or unyielding.........

but the open, accepting conciousness ALLOWS for events to move in a very potent, sometimes miraculous, way... Allows for its own guidance to be clear, it's movements/actions guided by the tao

[bruce]

I'm not interested in arguing over it, Val. You offer your thoughts, I'll offer mine. Thanks.

[millie]

well, i appreciate everyone's thoughts here. i feel they are all valuable points. micheline, you add a curious suggestion: is 02 like wu wei? does it mean to be without being? to do without doing?

[micheline]

hi millie..yes, wu wei. a lot of things emerge from the pneumaplasm of one's consciousness without seeming effort. But generating and maintaining the pneumaplasm in which creative exchange takes place is conscious and deliberate

I did sort of get the impression, like Bruce, that the comments about 2 could have been construed as implying a passive state.
acceptance and resignation are different, but it can be subtle.
neither one really nails hex 2 for me though.

In another vein, if you are doing the waltz or even better, the "hustle" (that old 70's dance), with a guy who can dance really well, you need to follow his lead with attention, grace, and skill. If you cant be receptive to every sway, dip, and twirl, the dance doesnt work.

[bradford_h]

Micheline-
I think your wei wu wei comment shows a really good understanding of 02.
Capacity means both emptiness and power.
b

[millie]

I found this on the web for 02:

Hexagram Two

K?un (Pro: Kw?n; vowel so short as to be almost non-existent)- Receptivity

The vital feminine principle of receptivity and formation is indicated by this hexagram. All that is receptive, nurtures and gives birth is at work. Persistence in a direction harmonious with personal needs and the society one lives within lead to success!

With careful awareness your ability to receive, to nurture and bring forth the new can stream through you. Do not avoid uncertainty, or losing your way, but hold to your goal, and you will find your direction. Much confronts you. Take from it like the plant takes the minerals it needs from the soil. Build it into what you are developing within you. But also give of yourself to what is forming.

Allow those who are warm and supportive to draw close. Let those who are cold and distant be lost from you.

Remaining receptive like the fertile earth mother, avoiding interference from distractions will bring success in a new birth. But receptivity is not passiveness. It receives, but it gives a quality of its own.

The power of receptivity is enormously enhanced in regard to the question. Allow the openness to remain to let the immense richness flow in and be shaped. Much that has existed in the past may now be re-formed and given new life. There may be a time when this seems very abstract. But as the new takes form and grows, then recognition arises. Follow the needs of what is growing in this way. Be nurturing to it. Recognise the fragility of what is still young and immature. Guard it well until it grows into strength.

To nourish means to give all your resources, to offer them to be used in what has been received through receptivity. Like the mother of the unborn baby whose very body becomes the nourishment for the inner child, let all your experience and feelings be food for what is developing.

If there is not a sense of being already fertile with inner growth, then that which will fertilise will be sought out or attracted. Constancy is a means of attaining great ends.

Key words: Receptivity, nurturing, creativity.

[heylise]

Wu wei is actually in hex. 2, only slightly differently phrased:
2.2 "Straight, square, great. Without skills there will be harvest."
Without doing, nothing not done. One accomplishes what one is or lives, not what one does.

The character rendered as skills is the same as 'repeated' in the name of hex.29. It means doing the same thing over and over again, until you are a master in it. Or simply good. The way one learns most skills.

The earth does not need to do that, She 'does' through what she is. She is straight and square and great. And by being that, she makes everything grow and give harvest.

LiSe

[heylise]

Millie, where did you find this? It is good!
I tried Google, and that gives an URL, but the page refuses to open. If you can give the link, I'd appreciate it.

LiSe

[jesed]

Hi LiSe

The link is: http://www.dreamhawk.com/iching02.htm

Best wishes

[seeker]

I found that site too, and I have found it to be very helpful when I use it in conjunction with Lise and Wilhelm, as it opens things up a bit more. Unfortunately can no longer access Brads sitehttp://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/sad.gif

Millie, you asked about the difference of 2 and 5, and I love that you hit on wu wei, thats the way I have come to think of 2 as well. Another way to look at it is go with the flow. With 5 I think of more preparing to act, but the time has not come yet. The clouds are gathering, but its only when the rain comes that its time to move. With 2 I see more continuous action, but not direct or aggressive action. A boat in the stream, following the current, but not paddling, not directing, just flowing along. In regards to emails, my thinking in getting 2 would be not to send any, but to respond to any that are received.

For me, 2 is my great lesson from the universe. I am somewhat of a control freak, so just following is very difficult for me. Anyway, hope this helps.

[millie]

yes, jesed has the link correctly. there are some other good words on that site. i highly recommend taking a look.

seeker, thank you for your support. about taking action in my situation - circumstances were that this man and i parted abruptly, and he yelled over his shoulder for me to give him my email. i do have his phone number but i haven't yet called. i'm nervous. i want to handle this right. that's why i turned to yi for guidence. 02 was given to me as the image for what is the best way for ME to respond. my question was clear, in that i didn't ask what was best for the RELATIONSHIP, i asked what was best for me, for how I should approach HIM. 02. so i guess contacting him would be in response, and not a direct assertive act, yes.

but i have also been given images of 19 for this relationship. i mentioned above about the other two questions i asked yi. 19 is also challenging to understand. there are some good resources for 19 on this site, and i have read them all. overall, i've gotten the message that this is a special time, and i should not delay the approach, for doing so could lead to misfortune. but how to combine these images of 19 with 02 i do not yet know. it's only been a couple days. i do not feel i have delayed. but i am also not rushing or pushing. i feel connected to him whether or not we email. i felt the need to give some space around our connection, to be sure I am not responding from an anxious place but rather a centered place. i needed that for perspective.

[seeker]

Did you give him your email? Maybe that is what it means, send him your email and then see if he does anything with it. 2 might also be an indication to relax, to approach this from a calm, centered place. And I can really relate to that anxious state you mentioned; I get very worked up about things at times.

19 is very tricky, and I have not had much luck with it. It is often defined as approach, but I have never felt that is exactly it. I think its more about something approaching you, a new time, the start of spring, an opportunity, etc. Dont know if I have been any help, but you do have my support. I know what its like to try to get a relationship going and not want to misstep.

[millie]

seeker, no i haven't yet given him my contact info. i will soon. yeah, i probably need more help 19 although i have tried my best to understand it mysef.something is approaching me. an opportunity. i wonder though how often 19 appears for love and what the outcome usually is like. thank you for your support. it really means alot to me.

[bruce]

Millie,

There is NO reading the Yi could offer concerning romance that would assure an enduring healthy relationship. The fundamentals, however, will be either right or wrong, and 19 is favorable in this regard.

[millie]

hey bruce, yes thank you. of course i agree with you that yi cannot predict assurance on something involving the ever-changing and ever-unpredictable human relationship. but i do appreciate knowing that 19 is a favorable beginning sign. i got 19 with all three questions i asked. all three questions were a variation on a theme, of course. one was 19.1, another was 19.6, and then there was the 19 unchanging. kinda screams: 19!!

[millie]

does anyone know these lines in 19?

[millie]

p.s. i just realized that i'm here all worried about how to DO 02 when in fact 02 has been what we're all about. that's been the whole point. it has been effortless all along. it's just now my anxiety is kicking in because i'm starting to want. that i need to curb. but 02 is what we've been living.

[heylise]

I really love both 19 and 2 for relationships. They make both for very true and deep connections.

The ?picture? of 19 is someone looking down on ?mouths?. In old texts it is often used for coming down the mountain. I imagine someone, after a long journey, having crossed the last pass, and now he comes down to the valley where his family lives. Deep down there he sees them, tiny, mum hanging up the laundry, grandpa spading the vegetable plot, little child running around with the dog. He loves them without any thought about their being good, or better, or not good enough. Not one demand, only loving them, for the simple fact that they exist.

This way of loving, without any requirement, is the way to be nearest to the other. Someone who loves like this, can be trusted totally. It is true love, not the kind of love which needs or wants to have.

Hex.2 has a lot in common with the lowest chakra, the 'earth'-chakra. When that one is strong, you stand on your own feet, without fear or insecurity. It is submitting, but not like doing what someone else wants you to. It is submitting to nature, universe, or to your true way of being. Ideal is, when they are all three the same. It gives a huge sense of tranquility, and everything you do is easy and relaxed. Truly as if you 'do without doing'.
You can trust your instincts, your intuition. So you can jump right into adventures, without worry, because you know that your guts will warn you if something is not right.

If you can be like this in a relation, then you are a very lucky person - and your partner too!!

LiSe

[val]

Hi Millie...

If you wait much longer, you could very well appear to be playing games or appear to be unnecessarily anxious about nothing. He only asked for an email address. There's no commitment in asking for it, and there's no commitment in giving it. Just do it.

Love,

Val

[bruce]

wow..........