How to talk yee-jing (as in jingle)?

[lindsay]

Please, does anyone know where I can find some help with pronouncing the Chinese names of the hexagrams? I find myself needing to talk about the hexagrams in public ? you know, Qian, Zhun, Xu, Gu, Jiaren, Ge, Guimei, Huan, Xiaoguo, etc. ? and not feeling very confident about what is coming out of my mouth. Is there a book or website somewhere that explains how the gua (is that goo-ah?) are pronounced properly? What do you guys do when you have to discuss hexagrams with someone? I mean, you can't always say "forty-three" or "twenty-one," can you?

Thanks! Lindsay

[martin]

"Forty-three" is usually sufficient, Lindsay, if you add a poker face.
Preferably a wise poker face, of course.
If that doesn't work, roll with your eyes and pretend that you have entered a trance state. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bradford_h]

Hi Lindsay-
I have sections on pronouncing Pinyin Chinese in both my Yi and Laozi glossaries.
It doesn't have tones though. 1 is flat, 2 rises like a question, 3 warbles and 4 falls.
There are also Chinese language links in my Laozi section that pronounce the words along with you using audio files.
If you have the Blofeld, look there too.
I knew a hippie lady on the commune who had tagged herself with the name Tui, and not knowing any different, she'd been saying Tooey, rhymes with Gooey. It was hard to tell her it was Dway, but it had to be done.

[heylise]

You give me an idea! As soon as my computer decides to work properly again (or me going to do something about it) I will make a little sound file with all the names.
It will not be perfect, but reasonably so I guess. Good enough when there are no Chinese in the audience.
There are several books (Yi's) with good guidelines, but right now I don't know which.

Ah, my first guess had it: Whincup. Will scan it this afternoon (your midnight I think) and post it, unless someone else is quicker.

Nice to hear from you

LiSe

[heylise]

Did not see Brad's post. Quicker eh?

LiSe

[jte]

By the way, Lindsay, you don't need to worry overmuch about getting the 4 tones precisely right *if* you're speaking to an audience that doesn't speak Chinese. The tones are what linguists call "non-contrastive" for people who don't speak a language with tones - this means that although people hear them (technically), they don't recognize the tones as carrying linguistic meaning. So, it won't make a big difference the hearer.

If this isn't clear, consider the famous (to us) inability of most Japanese to distinguish L and R. This happens because the L and R sounds are non-contrastive in Japanese.

- Jef

[lindsay]

Thanks for your help, everyone! As Jeff suggested, what I need now is a rough-and-ready approximation of the Chinese names without worrying too much about absolute authenticity. Don?t need to sound like King Wen at this point. Maybe later. So I took Blofeld?s list and Brad?s much more complete explanations, and came up with the following list of pronunciations. They probably only make sense to English-speakers (if they make sense to anybody). Regardless, my thanks to Brad for making his material available ? what a goldmine your site is! Any feedback on the list would be very interesting.

Best of all would be sound files like the ones LiSe suggested. It would be a great help to all of us, in my opinion, to hear the hexagram names actually spoken by a human voice. Little sound files, as Hilary has shown us, can be very effective. (I?ve almost mastered her Oxford accent!) LiSe, I think such files would be a wonderful addition to your website.

As usual, Martin has the best idea of all: bluff your way through it! I?ve been working on that ?wise and knowing? look for years, but still haven?t got it. However, I find that mumbling a lot and creating distractions also work well.

Lindsay

1. Qian -- chee-en
2. Kun -- kwen
3. Zhun -- jwen
4. Meng -- meng
5. Xu -- shoo (approximate; vowel sound not in Eng; like Fr u or Ger ü)
6. Song -- soong
7. Shi -- shrrr
8. Bi -- bee
9. Xiaoxu -- shee-ow-choo
10. Lu -- loo (approximate; vowel sound not in Eng; like Fr u or Ger ü)
11. Tai -- tie (as in English word necktie)
12. Pi -- pee
13. Tongren -- toong-ren (as in English word wren)
14. Dayou -- dah-you
15. Qian -- chee-en
16. Yu -- yoo (approximate; vowel sound not in Eng; like Fr u or Ger ü)
17. Sui -- sway
18. Gu -- goo
19. Lin -- lin
20. Guan -- gwun
21. Shihe -- shrrr-her
22. Bi -- bee
23. Bo -- poh
24. Fu -- foo
25. Wuwang -- woo-wung
26. Daxu -- dah-choo
27. Yi -- yee
28. Daguo -- dah-gwoh
29. Kan -- kun (as in English word country)
30. Li -- lee

31. Xian -- shee-en
32. Heng -- heng
33. Dun -- doon (as in English word book)
34. Dazhuang -- dah-jwung
35. Jin -- jin (as in English word gin)
36. Mingyi -- ming-yee
37. Jiaren -- jee-ah-ren (as in English word wren)
38. Kui -- kway
39. Jian -- jee-en
40. Xie -- shee-ay
41. Sun -- soon (as in English word book)
42. Yi -- yee
43. Kuai -- gwuy (as in English word buy)
44. Gou -- go
45. Cui -- tsway
46. Sheng -- sheng
47. Kun -- kwen
48. Jing -- jing
49. Ge -- ger (as in English word girdle)
50. Ding -- ding
51. Zhen -- jen
52. Gen -- gen (g as in German gemütlich)
53. Jian -- jee-en
54. Guimei -- gway-may
55. Feng -- feng
56. Lu -- loo (approximate; vowel sound not in Eng; like Fr u or Ger ü)
57. Sun -- soon (as in English word book)
58. Dui -- dway
59. Huan -- hwun (as in English word fun)
60. Jie -- jee-eh
61. Zhongfu -- joong-foo
62. Xiaoguo -- shee-ow-gwoh
63. Jiji -- jee-jee
64. Weiji -- way-jee

[mick]

Lindsay,

Thanks very much for posting the pronunciations.

"13. Tongren -- toong-ren (as in English word wren)"

Is this Mandarin?

Wilhelm calls Hx 13 T'ung jên. Is that Cantonese?

Thanks and best wishes,

Mick

[soshin]

Wilhelm versus Pinyin.

Pinyin is the relatively modern "official" transcription system of the "official" or Beijing dialect Chinese into western script, made by Peoples Republic scholars in the sixties and seventies. Taiwan does not use it.

In Pinyin we have Tongren.

The Tung Jen in Wilhelms translation is a transcription system about ninety years old which is not in use anymore today (but in the Wilhelm version). It is a transcription system made by Wilhelm himself into German.

Both are dealing with Mandarin, which is the Beijing dialect.

Pinyin: Yijing
Wilhelm: I Ging

[mick]

Thanks Soshin :~)