Talk or not

[sunnygirl]

I recently asked the boyfriend if he wanted to live together. He said he'd rather we have our own places as he is very solitary. This bothered me but I didn't say anything. I feel I have been waiting a long long time for things to move forward.

I asked the yi

Should I call him up and have a heart to heart with him about things?

Answer: 21.4.6 to 36

Then I asked What is boyfriend's current position in our relationship?

Answer: 21.3.4 to 22

21 seems to be rather important if I got it twice.

[crystal_blue]

I recently asked the boyfriend if he wanted to live together. He said he'd rather we have our own places as he is very solitary. This bothered me but I didn't say anything. I feel I have been waiting a long long time for things to move forward.

Tell him how you feel. That should pretty much move the relationship forward by default.

[willowfox]

"Should I call him up and have a heart to heart with him about things?

Answer: 21.4.6 to 36"

Hex 21.4 there are problems here and you will find it to be a difficult task to get to the bottom of the problem but persevere, step by step.

Hex 21.6 don't invite trouble by pushing him to hard, so don't upsetting him with long heart to heart chats, they will backfire on you.

Hex 36 says to keep a low profile, now is not the time push yourself forward.

This is telling you not to phone him and have long chats about the problems but to slowly investigate the trouble, step by step.

"Then I asked What is boyfriend's current position in our relationship?

Answer: 21.3.4 to 22"

Hex 21.3 says that he is not committing himself thoroughly to this relationship and that the issue goes back quite sometime, so the relationship is not as it should be.

Hex 21.4 he knows that there are problems here, caused by him and that he must sort them out but it up to him to make the effort to set things right. But will he bother? I don't think so.

Hex 22 it seems that he is not prepared to make any adjustments in his outlook and it would seem that he is rather selfish in his attitude in this relationship, he thinks that everything is just fine the way things are at the moment. His attitude towards you is hiding something much darker deep down in himself, something not nice.

Does he dislike something about you or the relationship? Does he fear something? Does he have a psychological problem?

[trojan]

Yes agree with Wfox more or less. There are issues there that really are problems between you, talking it through may not cast as much light on things as you'd like - I feel he will not be exactly straight forward with you or may just refuse to listen. Its a tough one cos I still think its necessary for you to bite through these problems, but prepare yourself for no satisfactory solution.

[listener]

sunnygirl,
What you need to bite through is the truth about this relationship. YOu are trying to cover your ears to the truth.
Leave him behind, as hard as it may be. There is something not right.

[rosada]

You ask if you should call him up to have a heart to heart about the situation. I suggest the IC is commenting that while it indeed maybe necessary to bite through some issues here, this is really a tricky one and to be "mindful of the difficulties". This really is too tricky an issue to discuss over the phone. In fact, perhaps the wooden cangue overt he ears is telling you that just talking to him on the phone isn't going to get through to him.
Now, he has confided in you that his issue is not you, but that he likes his solitude. The IC says "Slight humiliation. No blame." This makes me think that while it's a disappointment to you that he doesn't want to live together, it's not your fault, he really really does like his solitude. And I think 22 is saying he likes your relationship just the way it is. It fulfills his fantasy, it isn't too much work. So bottom line, I think he's telling you the truth not only for the moment, but also for the long term: He doesn't see the relationship becoming a live in one. So yeah, you do need to have a real heart to heart, but not over the phone and not just about living together. You need to know where this relationship is headed.

[bruce_g]

fwiw, I'd rather lose a relationship with honesty than endure one with pretense. Maybe this is also where he's coming from? When two people can't be open and candid with one another, I can't see any hope for a long term relationship. Biting through the obstruction seems a more noble thing than letting it wither away in fear or apathy.

[sunnygirl]

Thanks for all the replies! Very helpful!

I did call him and we talked for nearly 2 hours and just about 5 minutes of that was about the relationship. I didn't want to push or overdo it. I hadn't talked to him about our relationship since January.

He said he intends on being with me for a long time. Whatever that means?

As for face to face talk, that will have to wait until I get there as we are in different countries.

Yes he does have psychological problems. I knew this and have accepted it. He has depression and anxieties. The other day he asked me, "why are you with me?"

I guess I don't understand his mixed messages sometimes. He said he didn't want to live together but when I'm there he wants to be with me 247 and I have been there for months at a time. Today he talked about me being there and the stuff we would do. He said you'll have to cook for me every day and breakfast every day. Ok if I am there every day to be able to make him breakfast, isn't that living with him? When I am there he calls me his wife and out of the blue he talks about ways to propose. I'm not there yet for marriage but why would he say that out of the blue?

I think I get what you are saying is I should decide what it is I want and what I can live with or can't and then try to get to the bottom of things when I get there.

[bruce_g]

Sunny, my suggestion is: zoom ahead some 10 or 20 years. What you see now is what you'll see then. Not saying people can't or won't develop, but I stand on the fact that people's core nature never changes. 21 could be another way of saying "get real".

Btw, if you'd like to cook and clean for me, that would be okay too. But I don't think you'd find that to be a satisfying relationship, do you?

[sunnygirl]

I asked one more question.

What will be the outcome if i stay in this relationship?

16.4 to 2

[sunnygirl]

Bruce, lots to think about; the 10 to 20 years from now.

No it wouldn't be a satisfying relationship if it were just taking care of someone else.

I do enjoy being with him and I feel happy together. Maybe I want more than he does or is capable of giving.

[bruce_g]

Maybe I want more than he does or is capable of giving.

It's worth considering. Sorry if I sounded a bit hard on you. I just hate seeing people settle for less than they deserve in a partner.

[sunnygirl]

bruce no, it's ok. I appreciate your feedback. I'm open to hearing them all.

Sure I can do better in finding someone that makes more money or whatever but the connection we have is not that easy to find.

[bruce_g]

bruce no, it's ok. I appreciate your feedback. I'm open to hearing them all.

Sure I can do better in finding someone that makes more money or whatever but the connection we have is not that easy to find.

I understand. And, no, not easy at all. It always takes two, though. No matter how strong, willing and able one is, they can't carry the other forever. Something would have to give, eventually. Ideally, you help to carry one another, and that gives joy to each life equally.

[martin]

I guess I don't understand his mixed messages sometimes. He said he didn't want to live together but when I'm there he wants to be with me 247 and I have been there for months at a time.

Well, I think this shows that he is committed to you, feels for you and loves to be with you. But it is not unusual for people who suffer from depression, anxiety and the like that they hesitate to make major changes in their life.
They try to keep their environment as constant as possible, because they already have enough to deal with, all the turmoil inside. A big outward change on top of that, it could easily become too much.

So it seems that the obstacle (in hexagram 21) is not that he is indifferent, doesn't really care for you, and so on - it is his fear of change.
And he also knows that he is a loner, kind of, that he likes to be solitary, perhaps he really needs to be alone sometimes. That makes it even more difficult. If you are around for a few weeks or months there is no problem, evidently, he enjoys it. But if you are with him permanently, can he manage? He doesn't know.

Of course I'm on thin ice here as I don't know much about the situation but this is the impression that I get. There are obstacles, no doubt, but it is basically okay.
Is that also what you feel?
I believe that the last answer of the IC - 16.4 to 2 - points in the same direction.

What to do? I don't know but maybe talking about it is not the best way to take this hurdle. If you are not together and talk about it through the phone all these doubts will arise in his mind, doubts that are absent when you are nearby, when he sees and feels you. So, perhaps being with him as much as possible is the way to go?

[willowfox]

I asked one more question.

What will be the outcome if i stay in this relationship?

16.4 to 2

Hex 16.4 basically it says that you are the glue that will hold this relationship together, you are the magnet and he is attracted to you, I suppose partly because you are sincere, honest and enthusiastic.

Hex 2 the outcome here would be that you would have to be willing to be generous and of service, this guy needs a lot of looking after. You can be of great benefit to him, discover what he needs and then decide how to act. You can make this relationship a success.

[trojan]

Actually i'm beginning to see a real negative aspect of hexagram 2 lately - its being a doormat. Theres a fineline between being 'of service' like a good mare and being a door mat. Its just I noticed it has come up for me when I've been asking about getting out of relationships where I feel totally used, where nothings given back.

[sunnygirl]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

I think I will talk to him about things face to face when I get there and then set some strong boundaries with him. I have a fear that he will expect me to act like his wife without a commitment from him. It was fun doing those things together when I visited him but now that I will be living there I really don't want that unless we are living together or married. If he wants those things then he has to make an effort.

[listener]

16. 4 > 2 is a a lot like what is going on here...friends gathering around you, you being receptive.
But I am with trojan. a position of chronic passiveness does one no good. you talk for 5 minutes out of 2 hours about what is most impt to you, because you do not want to seem "pushy"? hmmmmm.

[bruce_g]

That little sneaky auto-reaction we get, to instantly classify a hexagram or line, is fully alive and at work in 16.4. Oh, how wonderful to be the source of enthusiasm! To unify others seems noble and good. But it can also seem one sided and unfair after awhile, if you're the only one putting out magnetic energy.

[sunnygirl]

So are you saying maybe I should be less enthusiastic and more direct?

I've always been told to avoid relationship talks with men cause they hate them and not to be pushy or give ultimatums as it scares them away. Then again, I have never had to deal with a situation where a man was like a clam.:)

Maybe I should be pushy, after all this is my life!

[trojan]

So are you saying maybe I should be less enthusiastic and more direct?

I've always been told to avoid relationship talks with men cause they hate them and not to be pushy or give ultimatums as it scares them away. Then again, I have never had to deal with a situation where a man was like a clam.:)

Maybe I should be pushy, after all this is my life!

'Pushy' is a word with negative connotations, you aren't being pushy just taking responsibility for your life and happiness. You have to believe you deserve a really good relationship that fulfills your needs not one that caters to his neuroses.

Maybe some men aren't so keen on talking about relationships but at least if they are worth anything you can look to their actions to see what they feel. Why should you tiptoe around afraid to speak. I think with the two 21s you've no option but to bite through this problem, it certainly doesn't counsel being all docile and compliant. You need to be decisive here. :)

[sunnygirl]

True I am just wanting some answers as I need to plan MY life.

I keep wavering back and forth between going and not going even.

Catering to his neuroses was a good way of putting it and sometimes it does seem that way.

I think I need to make my own time limit on how much more I plan to invest in this. maybe 6 months.

[martin]

That little sneaky auto-reaction we get, to instantly classify a hexagram or line, is fully alive and at work in 16.4. Oh, how wonderful to be the source of enthusiasm! To unify others seems noble and good. But it can also seem one sided and unfair after awhile, if you're the only one putting out magnetic energy.

Well, the advice of the Yi here is 'doubt not' (Legge has 'Let him not allow suspicions to enter his mind'). And your 'but it can also seem one sided ..' invites doubting, right? :)

The thing is maybe that in this case the source will not get exhausted by giving, or perhaps 'giving' is not even the right word. The man or woman in line 4 has enthousiasm, a positive vibe, trust, and so on, and this attracts and inspires others. But he or she is not giving his/her energy to them, and they are not 'sucking'.
It is more a case of resonance. If I make a sound and you resonate with that sound I don't lose anything.

I see a tendency in several posts to read something negative in a response (16.4) from the IC that I can only interpret as encouraging, 'don't worry', 'go for it'.

[bruce_g]

So are you saying maybe I should be less enthusiastic and more direct?

I'm not saying you should be one way or another, and I don't think the Yi is either. I think the Yi just gave you an objective picture of your situation. 16.4 sounds and feels good, but if you consider it without saying good or bad, it gives you freedom to act from an informed position.

I've always been told to avoid relationship talks with men cause they hate them and not to be pushy or give ultimatums as it scares them away. Then again, I have never had to deal with a situation where a man was like a clam.:)

With men as well as women, most has to do with timing. I don't avoid relationship talks, unless a) I don't have a strong desire to be in that relationship b) I just woke, just went to bed, or just walked in the door c) I'm engrossed in something else in that moment. Couples in a strong relationship know and honor each other's timing.

Maybe I should be pushy, after all this is my life!

Somewhere between pushy and passive is a good balance - candid but considerate. And, damn right, it is your life. 20 years from now you'll either thank or blame yourself, depending on the choices you make now.

[bruce_g]

Well, the advice of the Yi here is 'doubt not' (Legge has 'Let him not allow suspicions to enter his mind'). And your 'but it can also seem one sided ..' invites doubting, right? :)

It invites broad consideration of my actions.

As far as following Yi's "do this" or "don't do that" - been there and bought the t-shirt. No, only I choose my actions. Can I really blame the Yi if I blindly follow what appears to be Yi's choices for my life, if it doesn't work out well?

I see a tendency in several posts to read something negative in a response (16.4) from the IC that I can only interpret as encouraging, 'don't worry', 'go for it'.

For me, it's neither good nor bad, just how it is.

[martin]

I don't buy the 'do this' and 'don't do that' either, not of the IC nor of anyone else. :) But I do listen to advice, umm, sometimes.
In this case the advice is 'doubt not' and I think if such an advice comes from an oracle that you trust, it's worth a try. Perhaps it works! That has nothing to do with blind following.

About neither good not bad, I agree that every hexagram and line has its plusses and minuses but I don't carry that to the extreme. Some hexagrams and lines are easier, less problematic, more pleasant - however you want to put it - than others.
The Yi does judge and it does give advices. It is not neutral. If it was it would be useless as an oracle.
16.4 is not neither good nor bad, hey, it's about as good as it gets! :)

[trojan]

How do you think it ties in with the fan yao 2: 4. ?

[bruce_g]

Martin,

Yes, doubt not that you have a magnetic influence. But it doesn’t say how that influence is to be used or how the result will be determined. 16 itself “appears” to say: ‘Go for it! Set those armies marching! Offer music to honor merit with splendor!’ But that offers no promise that doing so ensures success or even a desired result, other than having armies marching with great flare, flags and trumpets. Often 16 is much ado about nothing. Often not. The individual must discern, and then choose for themselves accordingly.

[martin]

How do you think it ties in with the fan yao 2: 4. ?

You ask how it ties in with a tied up sack? :D
It looks like 2.4 is more or less the opposite of 16.4. The subject of 2.4 is into hiding, at least in this sense that she/he is not drawing attention to her/himself. Alone or merged with the crowd, invisible.

[martin]

Hear you, Bruce. I'm not sure, what do others think? Please gather around us ... :)

[trojan]

You ask how it ties in with a tied up sack? :D
It looks like 2.4 is more or less the opposite of 16.4. The subject of 2.4 is into hiding, at least in this sense that she/he is not drawing attention to her/himself. Alone or merged with the crowd, invisible.

Aha yes the crowd - yeah I reckon 16,4 is less about individuals far more about groups.

Something that makes reading for other people very difficult is that I find Yi can cut throught the apparent question to address real motivations and answer those - if it applies and you do your reading you know instantly, but noone else could.

Not wishing to digress too much here but for example there is a meeting I want to avoid and the Yi kept saying it was better to go - yet I didn't want to. When i asked 'what if I don't go' it answered 46,1. Cutting straight through I realised the Yi was talking to the underlying reason i didn't want to go (which i would not even admit to myself) which is i didn't believe i was really welcome and felt insecure.

Purpose of that digression is if Sunny is leaning towards finishing with this guy, the Yi could be addressing her underlying concern about the consequences of finishing with him - in which case the answer is 16,4 - don't worry your friends will support you'. Of course I accept that may sound very far fetched and convoluted - but the experience above I described made me even more aware of how the yi will get beyond your formed question to what you really need to know.

Pardon the digression.

[bruce_g]

How do you think it ties in with the fan yao 2: 4. ?

2.4: *shrug* The earth doesn't gobble up every seed that falls on her. Open doesn't mean gullible. Discrimination determines when to open and when to close.

Quite feminine, yes?

[trojan]

I don't know. I always consider the fan yao but sometimes I really don't see the connection.

[trojan]

Also we have to admit we don't attempt interpreting for others from a totally neutral stance. We cannot help but have some kind of view of their situation can we ? I guess its something we have to watch but I don't think its a wholly bad thing. If say 6 or 7 people have read what Sunny has to say and feel it doesn't look so good for her with this guy, they can't just change that view on the basis of 16,4 - not after reading about the reality of it she described.

Getting back to the reading -( my mind is all over the place) if you are there Sunny it could be that with vigorous biting through (21) with this problem you work it out with him, but one way or another it does look like alot of effort on your part.

[bruce_g]

I don't know. I always consider the fan yao but sometimes I really don't see the connection.

I rarely use them, but I can usually see the connection. The lines seem to reflect off each other, like looking at your reflection in a rippling lake.

[bruce_g]

Trojan,

You said what I was thinking about earlier. Our own life experiences are embedded into our psyche, and probably in every cell of our body. No, I don't think there's such thing as an unfiltered interpretation. I think at times an interpreter can have a clear mind, a detached meditative mind, and the answer which comes to him or her may be spot on, but I think it's presumptuous to emphatically state, this is what it's saying to you, and this is what you need to do.

[martin]

Objectivity is an illusion, said the mouse to the bee. You love honey and I love cheese. How could the world be the same for us?
You have wings and I have not, you have six legs and I have four, I'm much bigger than you, you are much smaller than me.
And your eyes, your eyes have thousands of tiny lenses and you can see how light is polarized. I have never seen that, I don't even know what it means.
How could the world be the same for us?

:)

[listener]

You are right, Martin, 16.4 is a happy line, no discouragement there.

Sunny, FWIW, I think having a time limit in your mind is a good idea. In this way, you can be enthusiastic and attractive without pressuring. trust yourself.

[bruce_g]

A happy line - agreed, it's a happy line. 16 is a happy hexagram.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/happy.html

[bruce_g]

Listener, thanks for offering that word: happy. I've been researching it since you mentioned it, and finding that it fits 16 in a remarkable way.

"Many English language terms refer to various forms of happiness and pleasure. These terms vary in the intensity of the pleasure they describe, as well as the depth and longevity of the satisfaction. These include: bliss, joy, joyous, carefree, jubilant, exultant, cheerful, playful, amused, fun, glad, gay, gleeful, jolly, jovial, delighted, euphoric, ecstatic, thrilled, elated, enraptured, comfortable, harmonious, and triumphant." Wiki

I've been perhaps too enthusiastic regarding this topic on this thread. :bag: bye for now

[sunnygirl]

Thanks again everyone. Your input has just been awesome! I am still taking it all in and thinking about it and will comment after work.

I did confront him on one thing this morning; about the living arrangements. I tried to go to sleep and laid there tossing and turning and just seething inside and I thought I should just tell him I was upset about it and I thought he was being a bit selfish so I did tell him in a nice way. No response from him yet.

I feel good that I "bit through" on this one thing as normally I just hold stuff inside and never say anything. Yes I am worried about his response but you know I can't just tiptoe around to sooth him at my expense. If he can't deal with a bit of discomfort from me, then I don't know what to think.

[bruce_g]

Thanks again everyone. Your input has just been awesome! I am still taking it all in and thinking about it and will comment after work.

I did confront him on one thing this morning; about the living arrangements. I tried to go to sleep and laid there tossing and turning and just seething inside and I thought I should just tell him I was upset about it and I thought he was being a bit selfish so I did tell him in a nice way. No response from him yet.

I feel good that I "bit through" on this one thing as normally I just hold stuff inside and never say anything. Yes I am worried about his response but you know I can't just tiptoe around to sooth him at my expense. If he can't deal with a bit of discomfort from me, then I don't know what to think.

here here
you go girl

[bruce_g]

Mamma mamma take a look at sis
you know she's out on the lawn
and she's dancing like this.
Well come in here sis
come here fast
and stop that shakin your yas yas yas. :eek:

Dave Van Ronk

[topal]

Mamma mamma take a look at sis
you know she's out on the lawn
and she's dancing like this.
Well come in here sis
come here fast
and stop that shakin your yas yas yas. :eek:

Dave Van Ronk




You gotta state yer case
Go speak yer truth
Tell like it is
Like a verbal Babe Ruth,

Gotta move that butt
And spin it on a dime,
Tell em what you’re thinkin’
‘fore a quarter past nine,

Move with the groove
And state yer case,
Don’t let him duck n’ dive
‘Cuz gotta hit the base,

Don’t squeeze too hard,
But make kinda real,
You ain’t a dilly-dolly
But the prime real-deal,

Yeah!


Topal Van Bonk

:D

Sorry I don't know what came over me.

[rosada]

Fabulous! I think hex.16 has away of bringing out one's inner rap artist.