Multiple moving lines - Part 2

[dobro]

Another idea: 'the number of moving lines in a hexagram indicates the relative importance or signficance of the resulting hexagram in the present situation'.

So, if you've got two moving lines, you can consider the resulting hexagram as a minor aspect of the present situation, but if you've got four moving lines, you absolutely must take it into consideration. If you've got five or six moving lines, then the primary hexagram is more like a springboard that leads you immediately to a focus on the resulting hexagram - the rhythm of the situation is iambic, in other words.

Which would mean that it isn't just an issue of multiple moving lines; it's an issue of *any* moving lines, and where you put the stress. There are seven possibilities: no moving lines means you put all the stress on the one and only hexagram. One moving line means you put almost all the stress on the primary, with just a hint of the resulting hexagram being present, etc. This approach simplifies everything, because the more moving lines you have in a hexagram, the more difficult it is to read. (I find three about my upper limit for useful understanding - it just gets too complex with four or more moving lines.) Which means that the meanings attached to the individual moving lines become less powerful, or less signficant, the more moving lines there are.

I know, I know - I'm simplifying a complex situation. But what I'm reaching for is a simplification that *balances* the complexity so that it can be more usefully handled, so that you could say: "Well, it's a complex situation and it's difficult for me to see it simply and clearly, but I do have an idea about where it's headed."

[martin]

Till somebody clearly proves me wrong I will stubbornly adhere to the view that changing lines are simply not valid when you get more than one line.
Having said that I must admit that I usually read all the changing lines that I get. But that is because I have a very curious nature, not, repeat not, because I believe that they are valid. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[dobro]

"Till somebody clearly proves me wrong I will stubbornly adhere to the view that changing lines are simply not valid when you get more than one line."

Well, on the one hand, nobody can prove you wrong, but they can appeal to common sense.

But I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that when you get more than one changing line, you look only at the primary hex and the resulting hex and ignore the individual meanings of the changing lines?

[ewald]

I've got a similar experience as Dobro, that with 4 or more moving lines the individual lines are usually not all clear. I find that in that case there will be one or more that I don't find applicable.

With one changing line I tend to find the meaning of the changed hexagram of only theoretical importance, but with two I usually find it meaningful to the situation.

[martin]

Yes Dobro, that's what I meant.
My experience is that the two hexagrams usually give a very clear message and that the changing lines (if there are two or more) only confuse the issue.

[hilary]

Hm, Martin, what would constitute proof? I'm not at all sure I could provide it - but I do know I've never found any part of a reading that didn't tell me something worth knowing, at least if I paid attention.

[candid]

Martin,

Because something isn't clear doesn't make it not exist. It only means we haven't dialed it into focus clearly. If your mindset is that only one line applies, you will only find meaning in one line, to the exclusion of all other moving lines.

It's like saying of the guitar, I don't understand this chord or that scale, therefore it has no value. Every chord and scale has more than one line, all notes having equal value, but at a different frequency. But not every note in the chord or scale fits every song.

Recognizing value in multiple lines requires a flexible mind, and understanding the common dynamic of opposites. IE: If you do this, you will get burned. If you do not do this, you will not get burned. Two lines pointing to the same truth, each from a different perspective.

Besides, if you believe or see that one hex. transforms completely into another, how can you possibly eliminate any change which has made it so? That makes no sense at all, logically.

[lindsay]

On the other hand, a creative mind can find significance in anything. Isn't Andy Warhol famous for painting portraits of Campbell soup cans?

The historical record and Chinese tradition supports Martin. All the most ancient readings involving moving lines from the Zuozhuan (our oldest source) identify a single moving line called a "base" line. This is also true in other ancient sources like the Guoyu. An attempt to reconstruct the most ancient methods for determining the "base" line is to be found in the Nanjing Rules from Gao Heng's circle. But the most definitive or classical method for finding the "base" line are summarized in Zhu Xi's Rules from the twelfth century. This is the method still most used in Chinese yarrow-stalk Yijing divination.

In short, reading more than one moving line is pretty much outside the Chinese tradition of Yijing divination.

Keep in mind that Chinese divination was a live performance. The diviner had to deliver an analysis quickly on the spot - he did not have the luxury of sitting around thinking of all possible connections. He did not always get it right. There are ancient examples of people reinterpreting oracles in the light of subsequent events, showing where critical clues were missed.

This hit-or-miss technique is still typical of most Asian fortune-tellers. In 1993 the Italian Asia correspondent for Der Speigel, Tiziano Terzani, traveled throughout Asia investigating fortune-tellers, and wrote up his results in the entertaining book 'A Fortune-Teller Told Me' (1997). Terzani did not find any Yijing readers, but his quest did uncover a host of popular divination practitioners that used surprisingly similar methods. It is fascinating to read exactly what these diviners are expected to do, and how to tell a good one from a bad one in Asian terms. Absolute accuracy is not a must!

Just a blast from the past --

Lindsay

[bradford_h]

Lindsay-

In spite of this
"All the most ancient readings involving moving lines from the Zuozhuan (our oldest source) identify a single moving line called a "base" line. This is also true in other ancient sources like the Guoyu."

Attempts to grapple with multiple Yao are in evidence at least since the early Han.
The Yi Lin or Forest of Changes even provides a text for all 4096 possible castings of the stalks.

It is equally plausible that multiple Yao readings are not in evidence (in what few fragments of pre-Qin texts that we have) for no other reason than their complexity.

[dobro]

"In short, reading more than one moving line is pretty much outside the Chinese tradition of Yijing divination."

So, let's see...should that mean that I shouldn't read multiple moving lines? No, I think that's bad thinking. Things evolve. Modern surgical practice is way better than it was in the Middle Ages. Should we not use modern methods just because things were simpler back in the day?

For me, it's like this: a changing line is a fact of the consultation, plain and simple. It would be like giving birth to a child and choosing to ignore its gender, choosing to ignore something very obvious and important that's going on. A changing line is like a light that comes on in the hexagram - it attracts attention. The question is what to think when lotsa lights come on at the same time. Like someone suggested here, multiple lines are like a chord. But whereas a musical chord is immediately understandable, three changing lines are not. And when they move in different directions, it's a bit of a discordant chord. Each one of those changing lines is happening, each gets 'heard' by the interpreter, but you've got to find a way to 'hear' them all together as well as individually. I'm starting to think that the way to 'hear the chord' is to look at the shift from primary to resulting hexagram. And more than that, it might be that the number of changing lines is an indicator of the importance, the weight, the proximity of the resulting hexagram in relation to the primary.

I know that these are just dry ideas at this point, but by thinking out loud and getting responses from all of you, it'll help me look at meanings in the Yi in a new way, and maybe I'll start to see things more usefully as a result.

[dobro]

Also, there's this, and I'd like your thoughts on it.

If you go into a consultation saying: 'Right - changing lines will mean that the resulting hexagram comes into the picture,' then the oracle will take that into consideration.

In other words, the intelligence behind the oracle immediately clocks the 'rules and understandings' you've set for the consultation, and adjusts accordingly.

[martin]

Are multiple changing lines valid or not?
It's of course very difficult to prove or disprove anything in this area. As Lindsay said, "a creative mind can find significance in anything".
It can see Zaphod Beeblebrox (from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) in a Rohrschach blot.
Is Zaphod really in that blot and is one of his lines, err heads, really drunk?
What is "really"?

Apart from that, I believe that whoever/whatever it is that communicates through the Yi (and other oracles) adapts to the user.
It/he/she tries to get a message across, that is all that counts. If the user is focused on lines it will speak in lines. For a user who is more attuned to hexagrams it will speak more in hexagrams.
And it will of course also take into account the understanding of the user and the meaning that he or she has come to associate with the lines and hexagrams.
I think that an oracle behaves in the same way as human beings that are eager to communicate. If one language doesn't work we use another language. We will use any means at hand to reach the other.

So, if it's true for me that multiple lines can be neglected, it may not be true for you. And the other way around.

[martin]

Crossing posts. Yes Dobro. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[val]

"In other words, the intelligence behind the oracle immediately clocks the 'rules and understandings' you've set for the consultation, and adjusts accordingly."

Such hubris. Do you REALLY believe YOU set the rules?

Love,

Val

[martin]

Candid,

You wrote "if you believe or see that one hex. transforms completely into another, how can you possibly eliminate any change which has made it so? That makes no sense at all, logically."

I don't discard the changing lines themselves, I only discard the text of these lines.
I don't know enough about the history of the Yi to be sure about this, but I suspect that the text of every line was originally written under the assumption that that line was the only changing line.
If that is true (and again, I'm not sure) you cannot find the meaning of a change that involves multiple lines by combining the commentaries on each individual changing line.
A change that involves (say) line 2 and 4 is a new gestalt. That gestalt is not "line 2 + line 4", "line 2 or line 4", "line 4 after line 2" or ....
It's like a child. If you want to know the child studying the parents (2 and 4) is not enough.

[candid]

Val, I interpreted Dobro?s statement not as setting the rules but as defining the parameter. If I?m correct about his meaning, I agree with him. How do you put the universe into a wine glass? With the limits set by the glass. Without localization, all the truths in the world will have no meaning.

[candid]

Martin, I doubt the inventor of wheel had low profile radial tires in mind. Not meaning disrespect to the origins of the oracle, but frankly, they have little relevance to Yi?s teaching in my life. If the Yi was discovered/developed in 1945, or 2003, and it worked as it does for me now, it would still be as helpful, though perhaps not as precious.

I?m a real believer in whatever works for you. If accounting just one line of multiples provides you with satisfying results, that?s what matters, imo.

[pam]

I agree with Martin's assessment - the I Ching speaks to the user and tries to get the message across the way the user is able to understand it. That's why it is important to remember what the I Ching said about a situation and then what happened - the same or similar result will hold true the next time you receive that answer. This does not mean, however, that it is entirely different in meaning for each user - only that through your level of experience with it, you will receive the answer that hopefully you can understand. Obviously, the answer to a question about an affair will have one meaning for the person in the affair who is enjoying it and doesn't much care about the consequences, and another meaning for the person who is an affair and wants it to result in a permanent relationship. The person who may be the one being cheated on will see an answer in an entirely different light. Yet each might receive the same answer to questions about the affair, depending how the question is put.

As for getting more than one line - I use the I Ching to buy stocks and if I only get one to three lines, I can see the movement of the stock in those lines pretty clearly (up, down, up or whatever). More lines and I take the the view of whole hex to whole hex, whatever direction that would be. So in that instance, Dobro's interpretation would be correct that the more moving lines there are, the less significant each line is.

I sometimes don't take the lines into account at all though because if the message is urgent, and I know what the individual hex means as far as stock movement, the two I end up with will have the message and the lines will not be part of that message. Case in point: I asked if I should short Apple ABOVE 37.50 today and got 51 - 35. The first line would be a good indicator (shock, then laughing) and the top line would be a negative indicator (shock & ruin etc) which might have been interpreted as the stock will go up greatly from there and I will be shocked and lose money OR that I will initially lose a bit and then make progress on my short. However, what it was saying was that the Yi was shocked at my suggestion that it would go ABOVE 37.50. It only got to 37.46 in the morning. The next question I asked was could I short at 37.40 and got 55 - 16. This was a yes, but the abundance part was a warning that THERE IS NOT MUCH ABUNDANCE in doing so. The way I have always seen 55 - 16 and the way it turned out today (maybe stated as 'your enthusiasm over this is too abundant. cool it - it's not that great'). It only dropped .47 from 37.40 down to 36.93. Then it proceeded to climb back up to 37.50 exactly. (I guess this was the shock, then laughing). It never went over. So ignoring the second hex would have been foolish - Progress resulted in the stock returning to 37.50 AFTER a shock of dropping. This is why I keep notes.

Good discussion, though.

[val]

What you do, Dobro, is set up strict limitations... not rules... in an already limited and terribly flawed and corrupted framework, corrupted by all the authors and editors who have used the book and changed it over the years to advance their own agendas, filling it with judgments and silly little augeries. And the Yi answers your questions without prejudice... without judgement... the best it can... within that framework. You're not making any rules... you're only limiting your opportunities by disregarding some of the possible avenues the Yi has used to answer you.

Last night I went out to celebrate with friends and family to a wild sushi bar... loud rock & roll music, disco lights and 10s of thousands of multi-colored miniature lights hanging from the ceiling. Sushi chefs and waiters in bright colorful hapi coats leading the customers in the chicken dance or making them dance on their chairs, singing along with Tom Jones, wearing Groucho Marx glasses/nose/mustache to bring the check, etc. etc. etc. I drank much Sapporo and sake, ate much spicy octopus, eel, etc., sang, hugged and kissed my friends and family... a lot, did the chicken dance... and the twist and the mashed potatoes too... and danced like John Travolta on my chair.

And when I finally climbed into bed, I asked the Yi what they thought of my evening of uninhibited revelry. They answered 26 to 23. Forget the freakin' lines. Not a single one of those lines has anything to do with what I did and felt last night. You'd have to really stretch... to the point of distortion (like so many people do) to get any relevance out of any one of them. They don't offer further insight into the answer. They don't offer ANY insight into the answer. The answer can be found in the two-word titles of the two hexagrams.

<CENTER>self-restraint...stripped away</CENTER>

Yeah dawg! I fell asleep content.

Love,

Val

[candid]

*blinks*

[candid]

Of the 448 illuminations, 384 of these are the change lines. I?m at a bit of a loss to understand their riddance, avoidance or minimalization.

Val, your comments are especially confusing to me. On one hand you hold the Yi up as the infallible work of your personal gods. Then on the other, you discard more than 85% of its content? Maybe there?s a secret I haven?t yet discovered, that you, in your vast experience with Yi, have. Do share your reasoning.

[lindsay]

I think there is also a question of granularity in this matter. The more digging one does by using all the moving lines, the nuclear trigrams, the nuclear hexagram, the steps of change, the fan yao, the pairing in sequence, and so on -- the more pixels one gives to the picture. But sometimes a very sharp image is not necessary, in fact confusing. One only needs to see the outlines, the shadows of change, for many purposes.

I also think constructing a coherent and accurate picture with intense granularity by using the full Yijing palette requires, well, "powers". I am speaking here of powers of intuition and clairvoyance. Most of you will not agree with me, but I do not think a very good diviner is just an ordinary person, even with the Yi and a bookcase full of commentaries. The Yi is not a cookbook. Not everyone has or wants the necessary powers, but without them, the degree of focus is limited. But I am quite sure everyone can see something, enough perhaps, to impact life in a positive way.

Lindsay

[candid]

Lindsay, well said.

There are times when a flash glance tells everything I'm looking for, and more information can cloud the sense of clarity and certainty. In fact, that is why I don't apply nuclear tri/hex's, fan yao, pairing or steps: not that I feel they aren't legitimate, but they spread the focus that 'works best for me' too widely. A case of TMI, for 'me'.

I really like your pixel analogy.

[jte]

"And when [the chaning lines] move in different directions, it's a bit of a discordant chord. "

Do love that metaphor.

"Each one of those changing lines is happening, each gets 'heard' by the interpreter, but you've got to find a way to 'hear' them all together as well as individually. "

Or not. Sometimes it does help to look at them together, but I don't think it's *always* necessary for an interpretation (is all I'm saying). I could be wrong and just seeing less than I would be/should be, though.


Candid - I think Val's point is that sometimes (but perhaps not usually) the most relevant answer to your question, the part that "really clicks" is in a detail of the text such as a phrase in a commentary or, as in her examples, in the way the Hex titles relate. I've definitely noticed this phenomenon myself.

As for personal "gods" well, two words: Chung Fu. =)

- Jeff

[dobro]

Yeah, Lindsay - that says something really useful about the Yi, and something really useful about the reader.

Val: as to the utility or otherwise of moving lines, see what Candid and especially Lindsay have to say just above this post. As for my hubris, nah... Do you use the coin method? As soon as you decide which side of the coin is yin and which is yang, you're laying down the 'rules' or 'parameters' within which the oracle will respond. It ain't hubris. You don't like my choice of words, but I think you understand the idea I'm expressing. BTW, were you hungover after all that imbibing of fermentatious beverages?

[heylise]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Candid: Recognizing value in multiple lines requires a flexible mind, and understanding the common dynamic of opposites. IE: If you do this, you will get burned. If you do not do this, you will not get burned. Two lines pointing to the same truth, each from a different perspective.

Dobro: But whereas a musical chord is immediately understandable, three changing lines are not. And when they move in different directions, it's a bit of a discordant chord.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

By combining those two views, you get the harmonious chord. As long as you see the lines as predicting an inevitable future, they can discord totally. But seen as guidelines, as information about the best course of action, they meld together in a harmonious plan.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Martin: I don't know enough about the history of the Yi to be sure about this, but I suspect that the text of every line was originally written under the assumption that that line was the only changing line.
If that is true (and again, I'm not sure) you cannot find the meaning of a change that involves multiple lines by combining the commentaries on each individual changing line. A change that involves (say) line 2 and 4 is a new gestalt. That gestalt is not "line 2 + line 4", "line 2 or line 4", "line 4 after line 2" or ....<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
My idea is, that every line has its place in the hexagram, and a meaning derived from that place. E.g. 5th line is the ?emperor?, so in hex.1 the ruler of the situation is the dragon flying in heaven. Line 1 is the lowest rank in hierarchy, it is the dragon under water.

Added to this local meaning is the hexagram this line changes into. For the flying dragon hex.14: the ruling power of line 5 and ?Great Possessing? together, really like flying high.
But because the Yi is a complete structure, 2 lines changing together have, apart from their individual meanings, also a meaning from that resulting hex. So hex.1 lines 3 + 4 have a meaning like hex.61. It is not information anyone can ?think? about when casting a hexagram, because through all this thinking you?d miss the answer. But intuition can go quite far. In the case of 1 changing to 61 it is not very difficult: the two ?man? lines in creativity change ? you need Inner Truth to create anything worthwhile. Which is reflected in the Junzi creative in the day, anxious in the night, and the dragon dancing.
And when hex.1 changes to 34, the two top lines, the ?heaven? or mental lines change, and for this change one needs Great Vigor. The combination of the flying and the overbearing dragon.

LiSe

[lindsay]

Brad -

I've been thinking about your post above concerning ancient readings, and I've come to the conclusion there is something fishy about the castings in the Zuozhuan. How could they all possibly end up with only one moving line by using known casting methods? I was confusing this result with the result of simplification methods (like Zhu Xi's), which are designed to identify WHICH of the moving lines is relevant. Zhu Xi's method presupposes that multiple moving lines will be cast, that all should be used to determine the relating hexagram, but only one yaoci is truly significant in interpreting the reading. But all (except one) of the Zuozhuan castings end up with no moving lines or a SINGLE moving line, and that single line is used to determine the relating hexagram. This sounds impossible to me using any yarrow-casting methods I've heard about.

Naturally, aside from raising a very odd and puzzling issue about the Zuozhuan readings, this pretty much cancels out my point that ancient Chinese readings involved using only one moving line. It isn't a question of using one moving line, but of getting one moving line as part of the casting technique. I wonder how they did it? Or maybe, as you suggested, the readings have been simplified for the sake of the story.

Lindsay

[lindsay]

Sorry, folks, just one more point in my imaginary conversation with Brad . . .

It just occurred to me that the Zuozhuan readings with their single moving lines cannot possibly be simplifications of more complex readings.

To use the Mingyi example, let's say the annalist knew that the reading was hexagram 36 changing to hexagram 15. The only way that can happen is if Line 1 (and only Line 1 moves). The reading could not have been different (involving more moving lines) or the resulting hexagram would have been different.

Obvious, huh? That means, in short, either (1) the Zuozhuan readings are totally bogus, invented to serve the story at hand, or (2) they involved a casting technique that somehow always returns either a single primary hexagram or a single moving line. In case number (2) we have a big mathematical mystery on our hands.

Or maybe the whole thing involves a scribal error. A breakdown at the Bronze Age Kinko's (for all you monarchists, Kinko's is a big US chain of copy shops).

Lindsay

[ewald]

Or perhaps (3), the Zuozhuan readings comprise a selection.

[martin]

Lindsay,
I don't know if this is what you had in mind but here (http://homepage2.nifty.com/index_Z/meihua.html#system) is an old method that produces only one changing line.
The hexagrams are created by choosing or calculating the trigrams (not by casting), only the changing line is determined by a random method.

I didn't try it myself, so I don't know what it's worth.

[martin]

Ah, I see now that they also mention a method that involves casting, with six coins. The trick is that one of these coins is marked. That coin will indicate which line is changing.

[hilary]

Didn't someone reconstruct what they thought must have been the methods used for the Zuozhuan readings? Ah yes... on p170 of Rutt's Zhouyi, the 'Nanjing rules'. Any use to anyone?

[dobro]

Hilary, you know *far* too much about this LOL.

[bradford_h]

Hi Lindsay
What I meant to say is what Ewald said more clearly-
the Zuozhuan examples might have been selected for their simplicity.
I don't really have any answers here- I just don't like to close doors based on the kind of limited data that we have.
It doesn't help either that the Yarrow method we have is possibly no older than Zhuxi.

Hi Hilary-
These Nanjing "rules" seem just a wee bit like pure speculation to me. When I first read this I just didn't see them as anchored in anything attestable. Of course by then I had already formed a pretty low opinion of Gao Heng.

[lindsay]

One final word on this Zuozhuan thing, then I'll drop it -- who cares, anyway?

Ewald and Bradford, I agree with you that the readings in the Zuozhuan were probably selections. But they were selected not to illustrate the use of the Yi, but as anecdotes to shed light on the people involved. If a journalist writes a story about George Bush getting a Yi reading which later turned out to be oddly and appropriately true or false, you would interpret that as a story about George Bush, not about how to cast the Yi. So in a way the Yi itself as a specific divination tool is irrelevant in all the various episodes in the Zuozhuan. The same point would have been served if the diviners used dice or tarot cards or crystal balls. Except perhaps that the Yi had at the time a certain authoritative cachet that made it the primo method of divination in the mind of the Zuozhuan annalist.

If all this is true (and we are talking probabilities here, not certainties), then it would seem the annalist would (1) be somewhat familiar with the methodology of Yi divination, and (2) present it accurately to give his story had every appearance of factual truth.

And if this is so, then we are back to trying to explain why all the divinations improbably involve primary or single-line readings if in fact they are genuine.

I would argue they are probably not genuine. The annalist made them up to illustrate a point, and he made them as simple as possible so he didn't have to present a lot of procedural folderol. The same kind of folderol we've been discussing in this string.

I agree completely with Brad that the Nanjing rules sound wildly improbable. Positively Ptolemaic. But, unlike Brad, I don't break out in hives every time I hear the name Gao Heng. If the Yi episodes were crafted to fit the narrative in the Zuozhuan, then we have no need for the Nanjing rules at all. In fact, we would know exactly nothing about Yi divination during the Zhou, except what looks like a plausible reading to someone writing in the third century BC.

When you don't have any factual information, then anybody's guess is as good as the next. So everybody who has an opinion about ancient divination is possibly right, or possibly wrong, depending on whether the glass is half-empty or half-full.

Well, that's my bit.

Lindsay

[val]

Jeff...

Personal gods indeed! For the record... that's Candid's invention... not my words... not my concept. In fact, from what I hear... from Candid no less who has several times referred to his own experience with "men in grey lab coats"... as well as from people who've sent me emails... these guys do seem to get around. I think my favorite email was from the man who said he'd never given the "men in grey" I spoke of much thought until he read a story in his local paper (on the other side of the globe from me) about a boy who was healing people with a glass of water and said "men in grey" taught him how.

Love ya,

Val

[val]

Dobro...

No hangover. I ate enough and drank enough water to prevent one. A little light headed maybe... and wearing a perma-grin all day long... but then I have a beautiful and fragrant bouquet of flowers in my office that keeps me grinning... *grin*

It's interesting that you like what Candid said... because he said pretty much what I've been saying all along... in his words:

"There are times when a flash glance tells everything I'm looking for, and more information can cloud the sense of clarity and certainty. In fact, that is why I don't apply nuclear tri/hex's, fan yao, pairing or steps: not that I feel they aren't legitimate, but they spread the focus that 'works best for me' too widely. A case of TMI, for 'me'."

I differ only slightly. I think some pairing is legitimate... some a reeeeaaalllll stretch. I do consider the fan yao occasionally, the fan yao can some times give additional insight into the applicable line... not always.

I usually look at everything... even ALL the changing lines if there're more than one... because something WITHIN it all... not ALL of it... will answer my question. It's been my experience, however, that when there's mml, the answer is usually in the hexagrams themselves... maybe just a sentence from one or both that will have special meaning to me and give special insight on the situation or maybe the general meaning of each. One has to be open and receptive to know which is the case in each instance. And if I don't immediately see the answer in the text, I'll eventually get my answer through experience... either my own or someone else's that they've been so kind to share here on this forum. I've gained a LOT of understanding right here on this forum reading others' experiences. Experience has always been my best teacher.

I don't set the rules with the Yi. I once tried. Told the Yi (my term for the force that answers me through the YiJing) how we were going to arrive at Yes and No answers. I don't remember their answer to that... I just remember it was an ever so humbling experience. I apologized sincerely.

Love,

Val

[val]

Lindsay...

Are you in the pixel business? I mean digital graphics where pixels really matter *grin*... since your "pixel" example is graphical. I am. I'm in digital post production... we turn films into pixels... very exciting... high fast growth... state of the art technology... blah blah blah. I'm very happy.

No special "powers" are required to read the Yi. In fact, the simple trick to reading the Yi is spelled out in many places in the dao de jing. Intuition. Intuition is easy. It's simply a matter of being still... and receptive. No one is born with a special gift of receptivity. We're all capable.

"'The Sages of old', says the Lu Shih Ch'un Ch'iu, meaning of course legendary ancient rulers like Yao and Shun, 'did not injure their souls by petty feelings about private matters; they sat quietly and waited.'" - Arthur Waley in "The Way and It's Power."

Big hug and kiss Lindsay!

Love,

Val

[val]

Candid...

I never said the Yi... the book... was infallible. Again... YOUR invention. (You sure were inventive in your post... *lol*). I have always said the books are flawed. There's a lot of value in the books. One can truly experience personal growth if one opens oneself up to the counsel within... but one must ignore the judgments to do so. Judgments are counter to growth. Judgments are the stuff we are supposed to grow away from. And they're alllll over the book. In one of my dreams the "men in grey" said they wanted new interpreters... and they showed me an entirely different way to configure the trigrams. Knowing how infinitely patient they were with me and nonjudgmental about my behavior, I can pretty much guess why they want new interpreters. The difference between them and the book I use to communicate with them is glaring.

And I've never looked at the book with the reverence several of the people here do. It's not magical... it's not brimming with spiritual power... it's a book that several men over the ages had a hand in. It's a compilation of histories used for divination, and I don't really believe there was originally all that much thought put into its arrangement. I get this image of TV writers sitting around a conference table with 4096 "scene" index cards saying, "Okay Let's move this scene here... it works better... and put this one in it's place." When I see a moving line change the hexagram to one that I can't see relating to the line at all, even in my wildest imagination, I especially believe this to be true.

I don't believe its being Chinese makes it anything special either. And I think so much of being soooo Confucian hurts it really. If this same type of thing were done in Finland 500 years ago... it would still be as effective... maybe even more so.

The same thing holds true with the dao de jing... nothing magical there... a compilation of different men's philosophies about war, government and spirituality... most of them similar... but some contradicting each other... much of it is simply arguments to Confucian thought... Just a bunch of guys... peaceniks... sitting around talking, meditating and writing. And the dao de jing changed frequently over the years... as other men amended it to advance their own agendas. The Mawangdui text is quite different from the Guodian text and they're both quite different from the received text.

There's nothing all that mysterious about either book to me. Good books, both them of them... useful in their own ways. I like the YiJing... helps the "men in grey" communicate with me... and I like a lot of the philosophy in the dao de jing. Their image of the Way isn't quite the same as the one I came away from my dreams with... nothing circular about what I saw. But I do like the water symbolism and stuff. All in all though... neither one is a magical mysterious spritually imbued work.

That said, Candid, I don't recall ever posting here or telling you in private email just how long I've been consulting the Yi. So... how in the world would you have that information???? I'm the one at a loss now.

For the record... it's been just about 30 years now. Oh... but you knew that didn't you... *wry grin*

Love ya,

Val

[candid]

hears a giant whoooshing sound

Ok, Val. Whatever you say.

[lindsay]

Dear Val --

Everybody knows by now I'm a lot more interested in ideas than people, but in your case, I'm willing to make a exception. I can't tell you how glad I am to see you're back, swinging away and (of course) *grinning*. Val the Cheshire Cat.

I'm not in the pixel business but my daughter runs a graphic design shop in Denver. Right now I'm in the no-job-in-sight, walls-of-rejection, try-not-to-get-terminally-depressed, lots-of-dead-time-on-my-hands business. I know you were in that business yourself not too long ago. Glad to hear you've switched your line of work to something more satisfying.

As for your ideas, they are great. I agree with almost everything you say. Maybe you should ease up on Confucius a little. But mostly I just think you are a really great personality. Please keep posting. Somebody around here has to keep Candid on his toes.

Lindsay

[candid]

Keep me on my toes? That?s pretty funny.

Personally, I think we?re all completely nuts. Trying to figure all this stuff out, promoting our own views, correcting the views of one another. Who is right? Who is wrong? Good grief! Everywhere it?s the same. No wonder the men in gray lab coats (or robes) don?t hang around for tea.

[jte]

"[the Yi]'s not brimming with spiritual power..."

I must beg to differ with you there, Val. For me, there's definitely a spiritual aspect. I'm not sure if it's the texts, the structure of hexes/lines, the use of "random" methods to generate readings, or in the intelligence(s) which we end up communicating with. Or maybe the whole combination taken together. But it's there.

I remember when I first started reading here being struck by how I didn't see a lot of people asking about how to get promoted or pay off their mortgages 10 years early. But lots on spirituality, and that continues. I think it is (or at least can be) one of the Yi's main influences on us questioners...

- Jeff

[martin]

Candid, they sometimes do hang out for tea! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
Well, coffee instead of tea in my case and they didn't drink it, as far as I know. Only I did.
They also didn't wear grey lab coats ...

Btw, there is a Dutch book titled (translated) "What do men really want?".
The answer is not sex. No, first of all they want to be right!

[martin]

I agree with Val here. There is nothing holy about the Yi. There is no reason to put the book on a pedestal and worship it as if it embodied an all knowing sage.
It doesn't, it's just a book, written by human beings who, in most cases, have done a fairly good job.
There is a lot of practical wisdom, psychological insight and common sense in it, but that's about it.

However, the Yi can be used (and is often used) by a more than human intelligence as a tool to communicate with us. So when people feel that the answers that they get represent a high level of wisdom they may very well be right.
But this wisdom is not in the book, the book is just a tool, a channel. Like a telephone.

The Yi is - in Zen speak - a finger pointing at the moon, not the moon.

[jte]

Well, Martin, that is certainly one explanation, and one that I can see the rationale of: the spiritual learning comes from the being(s) you communicate with via the Yi.

I'm not sure there isn't more to it - I mean what makes the Yi an acceptable tool vs. other "phones" the spiritual intelligences might have available? What makes you rule out the text of the Yi itself? The fact that people had to write it and so the communication is necessarily "filtered" or ??

What stops the spiritual intelligences from communicating "more directly" most of the time? (Or do they try and we just don't perceive it?)

(Always more questions than answers with me, I know... ;-) )

- Jeff

[void]

Just a thought, the 'men in grey' ? Are they men, no women ?

[dobro]

"What stops the spiritual intelligences from communicating "more directly" most of the time? (Or do they try and we just don't perceive it?)"

My understanding is that the communication is constant. The advantage of using an oracle is that you're actually looking for the message for the time you're searching for the meaning the oracle's given you, plus the oracle offers some recognizable markers (in the Yi, the hexagrams and lines) that help you grope toward an understandable meaning. And at some point, I think some people sort of leave the oracle behind and become an oracle themselves - they learn how to tune into and read the constant message without needing sticks or cards or coins or crystal balls.

[jte]

Interesting, Dobro, so by this view oracle use brings an existing background "resource" into immediate focus/application. There's a need to know, so we ask and the oracle is a tool for helping make the answer clear...

For people who go past the need for oracles - do you know what the "telephone" that provides the message is? Your innermost thoughts? dreams? ordinary events as you experience them going through life (kind of like constant low-level synchroncity)? or ??

- Jeff

[dobro]

I'm not there yet, so I can't report from personal experience. But it's the person themself and their own intelligence that is attuned enough and receptive enough to 'read' the meaning that ordinary events contain beneath or within the superficial appearance. I've done it on a couple of occasions, but it's like swimming way out into the deep water or something, and I'm not used to that yet.

But you know, I'm gonna open it up here with a question that I think is a very good question: how much do you *need* to know? My view is that we don't actually *need* to know a lot to live well. But we do need to feel connected to the mystery, to the unconscious, to spirit - whatever you want to call it. My guess is that, for me at least and probably for many people here, drawing a hexagram and getting an idea of the real contour of the situation and how to handle it is actually less useful than the feeling of being in touch with and being given useful information by a source of knowledge far greater than our limited conscious knowledge. It's kid stuff, I know, but needful for a lot of people: "You still there? And I can access you anytime? And I can get help?"

Anyway, if I'm right, then using the Yi is like toddler's steps. And working hard to refine one's understanding of the lines in the Yi is then less important than developing one's attitude of respect and receptivity to the message coming through. Oh sure, knowledge of the meaning of the lines and being able to 'read' them in terms of a question put to the oracle is important in terms of using the oracle. But that's in the context of the oracle itself being just a stepping stone on the way to doing without it.

[martin]

I think that is a good question, Dobro.
My experience is that nothing is communicated on the conscious levels unless the receiver needs to know something.
There might still be hidden communication, though, on subconscious levels.
Btw, In my earlier post I didn't mean to say that there are always separate beings involved when we use the Yi or listen to other "phones".
It might be that we are only communicating with another (usually hidden) part of ourselves or (in the case of synchronicity, for example) that we become aware of expressions of impersonal physical laws that we do not yet fully understand.
Of course it is often difficult to know what is really going on.

This is an interesting topic and I would like to say more about it. But ...
I send a piece of software that I'm about to release to testers last week and it turns out that it doesn't function properly in some versions of Windows. Oh Bill Gates, I love you!
Emails are going back and forth between the testers and me, while we try to figure out what is wrong. So my communication channels are a bit overloaded right now.
No time to pick up any phone! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[jte]

Personally, and perhaps this is evident from my posts, I'm in the position of knowing there's "something out there" but not having a good handle on what it is. Very much a blind men and the elephant situation. So, I'm try to get as much info as I can so that I can in time refine what I know into an understanding that makes sense/fits what I've experienced.

So, I'll keep asking questions. Hope you all don't mind ;-) ...

- Jeff

[dobro]

Sure, but keep asking questions of 'what's out there' (or what's in here) - those are the most important questions. Those questions always gets a response, whether you notice it or not.

[val]

Jeff...

(I have answers for a few of the others who posted over the weekend... later... lunch break, but I want to address your most recent post immediately).

Remember... before I started having my experiences, I was pretty much a confirmed atheist... open to anyone who wanted to prove there was something out there... but still very cynical.

I now know, because of their demeanor, what they showed me and how they helped me, there definitely IS something out there. And I, like you, feel like one of the blind men touching the elephant.

I'd love to know your experience... if you'd rather email me than post here... I can understand. I really want to know what your experience has been, nonetheless.

For the record... they... the force that answers me through the book IS spiritual... of this I have no doubt. I'm saying the same thing about the book that Martin said so well.

Void...

Your post cracked me up... because I had the same question once I realized who was visiting me... what??? no women? No Void... no women... that I could tell anyway.

Love,

Val

[val]

Oooops... see next post... *embarrassed grin*

[val]

Lindsay...

You're right. I didn't give Confucius his due. He wrote much that I enjoy reading. It was his focus on hierarchies, especially family hierarchy and all that entails that I have a problem with.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/2644.jpg

I thought of Confucius when I saw this picture on the "Psychology of Fascism" site that our ubiquitous "Anonymous" posted... *grin*


Anyway... Yeah I was doing graphics before... 2D (AND 3D for fun), and this is the same thing on a much grander scale. We have a process we put some film through called "Fire." "Fire" does everything photoshop, illustrator, maya, and all their plug-ins do... and then some... all rolled into one program. And the server for the program is an SGI with five huge hard drives (so far)... each as big as my PC.... and that's not even a tenth of all the amazing tools and programs we use to turn film into pixels. Soon it won't even a 12th, then... 1/16th... the field is growing so fast. There's something new to learn each week.

I'm not using my graphics skills here. I'm here in an administrative capacity and am using other skills including my writing skills instead... and loving it.

I'm so sorry you're among the ranks of the unemployed. At my age it's a very scary and discouraging place to be... especially since I'm in a youth and beauty oriented business. I hope you're getting the line the Yi gave me... can't remember the hexagram and line right now... and chances are I won't be getting it for a long to come now... but it's the line that says your talents aren't being recognized at the moment, but have patience... they will be. The Yi was right... as always.

Love,

Val

[jte]

Sure Val, I'll write about it.

It was somewhat similar to the experience Pedro described, but different in character. Given the nature of my experience, I find his last post very interesting.

This happened just outside the front door at work as I was walking to my car.

It was brief, but quite striking. I didn't see anything, but I suddenly "felt" a beautiful white light, like angels are sometimes depicted. And then I momentarily experienced an incredible state of compassion, overwhelmingly beautiful - it felt almost like a fragment of God's love when he created the universe - that's the best way I can describe it.

It's hard to convey in words the intensity of this feeling of love. It was like my whole brain only felt love for a moment. I honestly don't believe my brain is naturally capable of creating feelings of this intensity since I've never felt anything like it before. That's one reason I believe it came from outside of myself. For months afterward, I would almost start crying if I thought about it at length.

It was accompanied by an effect in physical reality: for several weeks afterwards there was a recurring synchronicity that would occur pretty much every time I entered or left work. It was visible to other people; in particular the building receptionist (who sits there all day) noticed the synchronicity after a while and started to get rather freaked out by it. I made a point of being really nice to her and as the synchonicity eventually faded, she calmed down.

The synchronicity faded after about six weeks. It is another reason I think this experience originated from outside of me - I don't think that I'm capable of *causing* an effect like this.

I think maybe several factors converged to lead to this happening. It's not clear to me if all were important, or some just happened to also be true at the time.

1. I was actively dieting to improve my health.

2. At work, I was working on a Diversity training course. I consider diversity somewhat of a noble cause (at least the eliminating discrimination and promoting understanding between people aspects) and was working on it in that mindset. I was doing a lot of the work on my own time since I had a full schedule already.

3. The night before, I had asked the I Ching about work the next day and got (you guessed it) 61 (no moving lines). So, I tried to maintain a compassionate, open minded attitude towards everyone around me. (This isn't always easy at work, but that day was a very low stress day, so I guess I managed to just "let" it happen.) I think I maintained that mindset for most of the day.

Intuitively, the most significant thing seemed to be that I was already in a compassionate state of mind to some extent ? so, I think, the Spiritual Being (that is what I think it was) ?noticed? it and connected with me somehow. That?s my impression?

- Jeff

[gene]

The following would show how I would read multiple lines in a daily reading, which admittedly would be somewhat different than in a reading for a specific question. It also is an example of a daily reading somewhat of the type Carol Anthony proposes in her books.

Reading for week starting 09/26/04

1. Hexagram 18 line 4 changing to hexagram 50.

Nothing will be gained by letting things drift. Action should be taken to improve the situation. Decay that has its roots in the past is beginning to manifest.

2. Hexagram 26 lines 1 and 6 changing to 46.

The first shows an insurmountable obstacle. One must bide his time and wait for the opportune moment. The sixth line however, Shows that the obstruction is past. This indicates that while the time may not be exactly right, it is coming, and in the meantime one must use the meaning of hexagram 46 and set to work to overcome the obstruction. That does not mean not taking the first line into account. The work that one does is in preparation for the real work of overcoming the obstacles. This relates back to the first set which talks about improving the situation. The rising up in this hexagram, in contrast to hexagram 35, where the sun rises without effort, is only through great effort. One cannot sit back and expect things to happen for him. He/She must MAKE them happen. When only the first line changes here, we have hexagram 18 again, which shows us that This reading doubly refers to the necessity of creating reform in one?s life. When line six changes, we have hexagram 11 which Wilhelm/Baynes calls ?Peace?. It is only through the work that one attains peace and contentment within. One cannot expect to sit on the sidelines and have change happen for him/her.

3. Hexagram 1 line 1 and 5 changing to hexagram 50.

Here again we have as a relating hexagram #50. This reading is showing doubly the possibility of transformation and change, if one is willing to do the work. It does take two lines of hexagram one to change to #50. Doing the work leads to ?Supreme good fortune.? Hexagram 1 indeed is a hexagram of ?taking the initiative.? ?All day long the superior man is creatively active.? The first line and fifth lines have a similar tone as the first and sixth line in #26. The first line tells us it is not time to act. Hidden within this advice though is the hint of preparation, since this is an active hexagram. Since the lines in hexagram one are a prototype of how to read the yang lines in all other hexagrams, we normally with a yang line in the first place are counseled to be aware of the danger and prepare. The fifth line informs us of the results of the preparation. It has a similar context as the sixth line in hexagram 26. ?Flying dragon in the heavens.? It shows that the superior person?s influence has spread and become visible within his/her sphere of influence.

4. Hexagram 55 line 6 changing to 30.

This line gets into some interesting speculation. Several possibilities are possible here. The first is that one may not want to expose his/her wealth. I do not immediately see how this aspects fits into the reading as a whole however. Another idea is that one has been in mourning and isolation too long. This possibly fits for reasons I will not discuss on the board. The third idea presented here is that opportunities will not come if you do not look. This ties in very well. Once again the reading is telling us that we must take action to correct the situation. Here also is a hint of the action to take. While on the one hand the reading is saying you have been isolated too long, it hints on the other hand just the opposite, that one needs to spend time in meditation, quieting the mind, so much so that one does not see one?s family, (that is, one?s inferior elements, or one?s normal thought processes, but quiets the mind) until the answers come. In any line and hexagram pretty much, two opposing ideas can always be presented, and it is the intuition that tells which fit?s the best. Karcher says of this line, ?Do not stay in mourning for the past. By fixing ourselves on our past hurts, grief, or blunders we attract to ourselves more of the same. The work specified in hexagram 18 is here somewhat delineated when it tells us to let go of old ways of thinking, and start focusing on, and therefore attracting, what we really want in life. Sorrow over spilt milk is of no benefit. Joyful acceptance of the present, whatever that may be is essential. A joyful attitude toward life draws and attracts the powers of the cosmos to us, and we then can joyfully make a change in our lives for the better. But first the present, and the past, must be accepted joyfully. Hexagram 30 tells us that we are all part of a network, a giant cosmic network. That we are all one. By accepting the past, we recognize our own responsibility for where we are and what has happened to us and therefore clear the way for the cosmos, the sage, to respond to us positively. If we dwell on the gloominess of the past, we are not focused on where we want to be. Not focused on what we want for our lives.

5. Hexagram 17 line one changing to hexagram 45.

Line 1, once again a firm line, so it can be interpreted according to the standard set forth in the first hexagram, shows us the beginning of a situation. Here, ?The standard is changing.? Often, in ancient times, a flag or a banner was carried by one of the troops during wartime. This flag or banner would be the standard by which one knew what or who to follow. When the standard is changing, it indicates a change in the direction of our lives. It is time to take a new path. Here, in line one, it is just the beginning, so only preparations need to be made. But we will soon be taking a new path, or a new course. This of course, may be internal, in the sense that we have developed a new ?map for our mental makeup.? In other words we have a new vision for our life, for our future. A more complete and self assured sense of who we are and where we are going in life.

Often, when only one line is changing, looking at the relating hexagram is not a necessity, though it can give further insight, because the meaning of the relating hexagram is built right into the meaning of the line to a certain extent. But for now let?s look at the relating hexagram and see how it compares to line one of #17. Master Ni calls #45 ?Gathering the Essence?. ?All people have the opportunity to be close to their leader at this time.? In hexagram 17 line one we have a change between leader and follower. Here we have an opportunity to become close to the new leader. All of this is built however, on the premise that one changes oneself internally and for the better. As Master Ni says, ?This is the right time to move forward and be creative.?

6. Hexagram 33 line 5 changing to hexagram 56.

Here the reading all ties together, and comes to an end. Line 5 says, ?Friendly retreat.? ?One recognizes that the moment for retreat has come. And here, what are we retreating from? We have to look at the reading as a whole and recognize the overall meaning that the past has to be left behind, and a new point of departure has to be found. We cheerfully let go of the past. (Hexagram 18.) We get to work on the new. (Hexagram 26, hexagram 1, and hexagram 17.) We build a new future for ourselves, and leave the past behind, (hexagram 17 and 33.)


Gene

[val]

Jte...

Thank you so much for sharing your story.

"I guess I managed to just "let" it happen."

Open up and just let it happen... and there you have it. That's where I was finally when I started having my experiences... finally realized I was mucking things up doing it my way. I let go and let the "collective alpha and beta length brainwaves from synaptic energy output" *wry grin*

Soon thereafter, I learned it was more like I let go and let God... or the Way... or whatever that elephant is.

Love,

Val

[jte]

Sure thing, Val, I was happy to post about it. :-)

- Jeff

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

I was thinking about your example post about the daily readings. There's a lot there. I had some questions for you regarding timing.

One assumption is, since they are daily readings, that the reading is valid for the day, ie a method of focussing on an issue or issues for the day. Do you ever find, that sometimes a number of days may go by, even several weeks, and then a reading you had on a particular day last week or the previous week, suddenly seems to be still relevant? If so, why would that be? Maybe because that particular reading struck deeper, or had more meaning?

The other assumption is that, if the daily readings are intended to work on a larger life-issue, then each reading tackles a piece of that issue for that day, and then it might be more understandable that the reading "carried on" for some time after the day ended.

Or are both assumptions correct?

But in any case, do you forget about the reading when the day (or in your case, the week) is over? Otherwise it gets very complicated after a while, trying to find patterns, ie maybe this one is still active, maybe that one, etc etc.

[gene]

Hi Pakua

Actually that was a rare reading that I actually did the homework on. Often I don't exercise my mental faculties enough to get the full meaning. I used to do these things daily, but it got to be too much to try to figure out the meaning overall before the next day. I was trying to do what Carol Anthony does but she leaves me cold with some of her readings. I think the meanings she ascribes to some of the lines are right for her but not for me. It is extremely difficult for me to study the I Ching on a daily basis, read the newspaper, do online investigation, do Tai Chi and Qigong, and actually work once in a while too. I get extremely frustrated that I do not have the time to do anything right.

Anyway, while they may be daily readings, or my case now, more like monthly, they seem to me to apply to whatever period of time that the mood or the feeling or the situation lasts. If you do these readings daily, they will probably stay on a particular subject until you learn how to apply the material to your life.

Due to lack of discipline, yes, I often forget about the reading. Not that I want to, I just get carried away with the emotions or sensations of the day, and the more spiritual lessons fail me.

I just thought this one was an easier one for me to figure out how it applied to me, and was also a good example post. Whether it actually was, or anyone appreciated it, I don't know.

If I missed some of your questions, or you have others, let me know.

Gene

[yly2pg1]

Hi,

Here is some of my point of view:

(1) About Timing, normally the Chinese calls it "numerical Yi". The ancient Chinese use it widely for political and military purpose. "Numerical Yi" was treated as restricted reading material by Chinese emperors to avoid proliferation of the skills. Numerical Yi consists of various "tools" like 5-elements, Pa-kua, 3x3Matrix, Lunar calender, etc. Few schools of these knowledge is passed down to this generation.

(2)Very few Chinese will treat Yi as a bible nowaday. In fact, the Chinese know the Christian bible far better than the Yi.

(3)My personal opinion about the founder of Yi, Fu Shi is that he is not earthly. Having said that, Yi do not invented by the Chinese. Yi is passed down to Chinese. The ancient Chinese calls the emperor "Son of the Heaven" afterwards.The earthly homo-sapien, Confucius later interpreted the Hexagrams.

(4)The Chinese has realized the notion of space-time few thousands of years ago. The Chinese character of "Universe" means Space-Time.

(5)The Chinese meaning for "fate" means "border/limit". Yi is used to survive within a "border" and to escape certain "border" when the time is right.


Having said so much, sometimes it is good to treat Yi beyond the Middle Kingdom ...

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

"Anyway, while they may be daily readings, or my case now, more like monthly, they seem to me to apply to whatever period of time that the mood or the feeling or the situation lasts. "

This is the core of what I wanted to get at. If one does a daily (or weekly) reading, in actual fact, the reading may last (much) longer than a day (or week), which is ok if the reading is positive, but not if there are warnings.

Doesn't that show that one can't really attach a time line when doing readings?

But with that proviso in mind, suppose one does do a reading with a week time-frame in mind. At the end of the week, do you say, ok the week is over, forget that reading, time for the next one, because the next one will be more current and accurate? The only alternative would be to keep remembering previous readings, juggling them in your mind, which gets complicated. It's all very nebulous. If I was sensitive enough to know when the feeling or situation ended, I probably wouldn't need the Yi.

"I just thought this one was an easier one for me to figure out how it applied to me, and was also a good example post. Whether it actually was, or anyone appreciated it, I don't know. "

I found this example extremely instructive. I've never seen until now how things can be tied together like this. I copied it and put it in my high-lights directory, for further reading. Thank you.

[gene]

Hi YLY2

Thanks for that info. Are you Chinese? There are some of us, even westerners on this board that agree that the Yi, and other divination tools did not come from earthly realms...however, I know that idea is upsetting to some people too. Anyway, I agree with it.

The Chinese Emperor was known as the "Son of Heaven" as you say, and up until world war two the Japanese firmly believed their emperor was a god. I think there is more to it than we realize. In the western world, we have historians and such, for example, Sir Lawrence Gardner from Great Britain who has done an extensive search of lines of kingship in the western world, and has come to the conclusion too that this line is not from the earth. (He doesn't necessarily believe they are fallen angels or such as some researchers do, but from the sky anyway.)

It's all quite interesting to me, and I have spent as much time in research of this myself as I can possibly spare.

Gene

[gene]

Hi Pakua

When I do a daily reading it is usually for wisdomn in a sense, rather than for a specific event. Therefore, in a sense, it becomes timeless. Even if there is some reference to a specific event, and that event happens during the week, the fallout from that event could last a lifetime. One thing I wish I had time to do, but never seem to get around to it, is review at the end of the week, and see if there is a correlation to a specific event. But there is the inside world too, that goes on in our head, (which eventually manifests in the outside world too,) but one thing I am looking for is, how does the "superior person" react in this given situation. I once wanted to write a book out the "superior man" in the I Ching but never got around to it. The superior man does not always act in the same way in a given situation but is in harmony with the time. And, how we feel inside, does that match the feeling the superior man would have in this given situation? Maybe maybe not.

Gene

[sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

In the western world, we have historians and such, for example, Sir Lawrence Gardner from Great Britain who has done an extensive search of lines of kingship in the western world, and has come to the conclusion too that this line is not from the earth.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is some more on that line of thought: Nicolas de Vere (http://www.dagobertsrevenge.com/devere/interview1.html)

L

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

My focus is more on relationship readings, and looking to be able to do the right thing at the right time, which I guess translates to your notion of the superior man acting in harmony with the time.

"And, how we feel inside, does that match the feeling the superior man would have in this given situation? "

I can see how one might get that superior man feeling when one receives a ruling or "positive" line; generally one is in harmony then, but how could you get the feeling when you get a warning or difficult line? Do you mean by actively changing attitudes until you get that feeling?

I generally do a weekly relationship reading, which obviously allows for more outside feedback than if it was all internal. Sometimes I can see signs here and there, but the problem I have is "is that really a sign, or am I stretching it?" and especially when it happens several weeks after the "weekly" reading.

For example, a number of weeks ago I got 56.5.6. I thought I could see line 5 in action, and tried to be careful not to manifest line 6. Several weeks went by, with 17.4.6, then 15. Then I made a little joke, which didn't seem to go over very well, and suddenly it seemed as if that was the 56.6 line suddenly appearing. The following week I got 50.3.6. Line 3 here seems to fit in, as fallout from 56.6, so that tends to support my conjecture about that event.

What do you think - can one put a timeline such that weekly or even yearly readings will fit? My fear with doing a yearly reading would be following the wrong prescription, after the reading had already expired, or vice versa.

[yly2pg1]

Hi Gene and all,

Yes, I am a Chinese.
I come to practice Yi through a connection with my friend who has been Buddhist Monk for years in Thailand. Some ancient Chinese monks in China are well versed in Yi and they use
Yi sparingly for wisdom and moral guidance at precarious situation (seldom for prediction).
Some use Yi with the help of meditation, dream, sub-conscious etc depending of their
preference and habitual domains.

About the origin of Yi, some Buddhist have little problem to accept the controversial notion
if they have some knowledge in Abhidhamma (something about Mind and Matter, Mind and its state).
Coz the "property of Mind" will decide the realms (the states of space-time).

I always like to see myself as a space-time traveller as I embrace the meaning of Yi more.
And this is the way I see you all, if you know what i mean. And for a Chinese,
the issue of origin is probably an issue of "fate" or "border", considering the norms, social establishment
and the advance of life science at current space-time.

[gene]

Hi YLY2

I agree the "property of Mind" will decide the realms of space-time. I have spent a good portion of my life trying to figure out how to take the right attitudes, the right belief system, the right mind set, thinking, in order to manifest a more abundant and successful life. Not for materialism per se, but to be a better servant to humanity. I think the Buddhists and the Taoists are way ahead of most of us in this regard, although if Christianity is properly understood, it can help too. I have come to believe that the only way is through stillness, and quieting of the mind, which, while I meditate, I never seem to get to that deeper state of mind.

If I can get to it, my next post to Pakua, might focus on how the I Ching can help in that respect too.

Thanks,
Gene

[gene]

Pakua

My concept of the I Ching is that it is very multidimensional, so a line can mean many things on many different levels. If we get a fifth line in a reading, it can refer to a sage, it can refer to the I Ching itself, it can refer to our boss, it can refer to someone we have a relationship with, or it can refer to ourselves. I feel the only way to know which is to develop an intuition through consistent daily quiet time and meditation.

Since I don't know the entire situation, it would be very difficult for me to give you an interpretation of line 5 and six. Line 5 often represents a ruler, but not always, intuition will tell. Line 6 often refers to a sage that is beyond the affairs of this world, but often he is forced to come back and help the world. It can also mean though, someone who has gone too far in their actions, and has surpassed or attempted to surpass the power of the ruler. Rulers often don't like this. Unfortunately, none of us ever know how anyone is going to take anything so, especially in today's society, we live under the edge of Democle's sword. (Hopefully I got the right myth here, but we are always in danger of the string that holds the sword up of breaking.) Here we have a yin line in the fifth and a yang in the sixth. Neither line is in its correct position, this can refer to a conflict of sorts with someone in a powerful position.

When we get readings like this, I suggest that it is not a wise thing to focus too much on the negative. If we focus on it, we only tend more to draw the experience to us.

Now, let's look at the positive side. When these two lines change, they are now in their correct positions, and we have hexagram 31 which is mutual attraction. Perhaps not all is lost. Judging from your statements, I assume that the person who did not think too highly of your joke is a girlfriend, this can, but does not have to be the case, also, due to the fact that one line is yin, and one is yang. In 31, the lower trigram is "keeping still" which may be a wise thing on your part for the time being. The upper is joyous, talking, which, if we let things alone for a while, might work themselves out.

Keep us posted
Gene

[gene]

And Pakua

I might add, if only line 5 changes, we have 33, which means to stay put or even retreat for the time being. We can let it work out. If only the sixth, then we have sixty two. In sixty two, once again, we can't do to much. We have to hover near our home base. I feel that this is the same message repeated. Since both lines change, you have the hope presented in hexagram 31.

Gene

[gene]

Oh, and I was going to relate this to the superior man. In this reading, it is very hard. We do have though, I think an indication of how the superior man acts in this reading in line 5. First, the hexagram as a whole. The wanderer is a guest of the earthly realm, and so are we. As such we need to accomodate ourselves with the way a guest would act. First of all, in line 5, the superior man, as a guest, recognizes that to be recognized, he need to present himself as someone who can "be of service." Whenever we, as relationship wannabees attempt to enter into that relationship, we must first recognize a certain propriety, and a certain demeanor that at the first is neither too brusk, nor too jovial, in the sense of too lighthearted. We want to be respectful of life itself, joyous in its midst, but not at the same time convey ourselves as a buffoon. (And I am certainly not saying anyone has or is doing this, this is not a reading per se, but just an alternate way of looking at the wisdom portrayed.) As a rule, people will not accept us if we are of no service to them, not that they won't be mutually responsive in service. It is just that our attitude needs to be correct. The sixth line laughs, not that laughing is bad, but it is an inconsiderate, arrogant type of jesting, which the hexagram as a whole is counselling us against. The top line is often a line that has gone too far, and in so doing will sometimes have to, as indicated in the following hexagram, find a new ruler to subjugate himself/herself to. The fourth line says, "My heart is not glad." This is because the wanderer realizes that what is his is not really his, it is only supplied to him/her. The universe gives us things, but they are not ultimately ours, they are only ours to use in the service that we are here to accomplish. The hexagram constantly reminds us of the requirement of proper behavior.

However, from the standpoint of the wisdom of the I Ching itself, the punishment for infractions does not last, nor is it belaboured. "The superior man protracts no lawsuits." A neighbor or a queen might require our head at the slightest provocation. The I Ching does not do so, for it recognizes that we do not have its wisdom or understanding in dealing in the affairs of a world in which we are mere pilgrims...

More later
Gene

[gene]

Um, er, well, Pakua, maybe I should have said boyfriend/girlfriend. Funny how I just assume things every once in a while. Somehow I get an image in my head, a nickname might even make me think one way or another. Or maybe I'm insulting you now and not before. No insult intended. Just want to be careful.

Sorry,
Gene

[gene]

Pakua

I don't think that the idea is to get the superior man feeling. First of all, superior man is a relative thing. Superior to who or not. It might be better to say, the more spiritually advanced person, and I don't think it has anything to do with a feeling. I might have said that earlier, I'll have to go back and check, but if I did, I don't think I meant it in that context. We all have thoughts running through our head, that doesn't mean much except when we "own" a thought, put a value judgment on it, and say, "yeah, this is me." By doing so, we create who we are and what we experience in the outer world. Our inner world eventually creates our outer world. So to create the outer world that we want, we need to step outside of ourselves, see ourselves as if we are watching someone else, and review the thoughts, feelings and opinions that we accept as our own. It is this overview of complexes of thoughts and attitudes about ourselves that create our self image. In daily type readings, we are more likely confronting who we are in the inner world. Then we say, what thought, what opinion, what attitude would the superior person have here that I am or am not having? In the case of asking about a relationship, then I personally feel that the answer, while relating in a way to the inner world, is also directing us to look at our outer experiences. The daily reading might reflect more on what inner attitudes are causing me to have these daily experiences. In line six of hexagram 56 we may be asking too much of a given situation. The answer here may relate not to what is happening to us, but why it is happening. Then again maybe not. It is a matter of intuition and experience. Hexagram 17 line 4 resonates here with the hexagram 56 reading. In both cases, the subject is trying to please his/her lord with the results of a hunt. In other words, he/she is offering something to the ruler in line 5. However, if we try to overly please, or to flatter with too great a gift, we may still miss the mark. In the readings, the ruler things we are trying to surpass him/her, and this could lead to conflict. Enough is enough. From the standpoint of the superior man, he/she may need to retreat for a while from the subject do to an over zealous chase of the superior man's favors. (hex 56, line 5 changing.) In line six, the superior man retreats to his home base. (hexagram 62), Well, I am rambling, and I don't know if I am making any sense at all, but there are so many dimensions to reflect on from given readings, depending on what kind of information you care to derive from the reading.

Gene

[gene]

I see I made some spelling errors too. Hopefully it is understandable.

Gene

[gene]

Sparhawk

Thanks for that information.

Gene

[yly2pg1]

Hi Gene,

About the line of kingship in Europe, I am not surprised at all with your findings. Hope to see you chronicle your work.

Here is some clues for the line of emperorship in the Middle Kingdom:

The ancient Chinese of Zhou come from the northwest of China.The Chinese like to trace it as far as the Kun Lun Mountain Ranges, somewhere above Tibet.

If you interprete the old chinese literature pertaining to the some of the descriptions of Kun Lun, you may find interesting translations as
"The underground city of Huang Ti", "The place of thousands Gods(shen)","Middle Pillar of Heaven". And the ancient Chinese calls the north-west as
the "Gate of Heaven".

Believe me the classic feng shui has a lot to do with the "dragon chi" of mountain ranges.
It is a common practice that the ancient Chinese Emperors employed Yi/feng shui specialists
to damage any talesign of rising challenger simply by drying the "chi" of a particular
hills/mountains. It is always believed that a new emperor is a being receiving enormous
supply of "dragon chi" from a mountain ranges. The chinese calls the emperor body as "the
dragon body".

The work of "dragon chi" may be a bit bizzare but if you come to think with the unearthly
mindset, and correlate this to the "creation technology" of "earthly homo-sapien body",
it may suggest the rejuvenating power of nature to our body (both mentally and physically)
at certain geographic conditions. That explains why Feng Shui is relevent until today.

[gene]

Hi YLY2

I really appreciate your information. I also believe in Feng Shui, although I have never used it in my home or such, but I do study Tai Chi when I can. And contrary to so much of the modern stuff, I do put an emphasis on the development of Chi, and Jing. I know when the Chinese first started telling us westerners about that, most of us, especially our scientists and such just laughed. They thought it was ridiculous. Now they aren't laughing any more, except for a few of the old school ones. I was writing on this board recently about the new hyperdimensional physics some of our scientists have come up with, which brings back the old concept scientists two hundred years ago had about an aether, or what is now called the quantum hologram, or zero point energy. So much of what they are describing sounds just like Chi to me. It's a fascinating subject.

And yes, what remains of the old Indian population in this country sometimes tells us stories, (usually they don't tell us because we just laugh at them) but when they do tell us, they tell us of underground inhabitants that they ocassionally talk with. People similar to earth people but not exactly the same. I happen to be part Cherokee Indian myself, and my Dad grew up on the Navajo Indian reservation. He once knew the Hopi Indian language, and once told me that their stories about end time prophecies were almost exactly the same as in the Bible. At that time I was a little surprised.

Keep in touch
It's good to meet a Chinese person who still thinks like or understand the more traditional Chinese ways. Like you said, many of them know more about the Bible now...

Are you from mainland, or Taiwan? Just curious.
Gene

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

You wrote a lot, lots to digest.

First, neither girl nor boyfriend - she's my yoga teacher. While I don't have any romantic intentions, I'll admit to having a bit of a crush on her. Her classes really suit me. Also, she needs some help at this particular time. So there are multiple aspects to consider (as usual).

"the subject is trying to please his/her lord with the results of a hunt. In other words, he/she is offering something to the ruler in line 5. However, if we try to overly please, or to flatter with too great a gift, we may still miss the mark."

One of the readings I left out, also during this time period, was 42.5.6. So I didn't think there was too much danger of being too eager to please. Isn't 42.5 the essence of helping? And then 42.6 would keep me from going too far?

"The top line is often a line that has gone too far, and in so doing will sometimes have to, as indicated in the following hexagram, find a new ruler to subjugate himself/herself to."

I find it strange that I receive so many 6th line readings with this person, for example, in no particular order (since I don't have my notes with me) I got
2.5.6
10.2.6
11.6
17.4.6
42.5.6
50.3.6
53.5.6
56.5.6

interspersed were a few others of course. Would this indicate I relate to her more from an outside perspective?

"The sixth line laughs, not that laughing is bad, but it is an inconsiderate, arrogant type of jesting, which the hexagram as a whole is counselling us against"

Very close. And this is what bothers me. Relationship ups and downs are ok, that's just part of life, but what annoys me is, I tried to modify my attitude when I got 56.5.6, and being that it was a weekly reading, after a week or so had passed, and I didn't manifest that line, I thought I'd been successful. It was about 3 weeks later that I made one little joke, and it was obvious that my attitude was not "pure", for want of a better word. It's also clear that a "weekly" reading can last much longer than a week, which really confuses me. If you have a time-line in mind, why won't that work? It also means that I can't distinguish when the "time" or "feeling" of the reading is over. If I can't distinguish that, then how can I use the guidance of Yi correctly?

"I don't think that the idea is to get the superior man feeling... thought, what opinion, what attitude would the superior person have here that I am or am not having...overview of complexes of thoughts and attitudes"

I was thinking, that thoughts, opinions, attitudes eventually coalesce into a feeling. If it feels good...etc. Feeling is the result, no?

"the case of asking about a relationship, then I personally feel that the answer, while relating in a way to the inner world, is also directing us to look at our outer experiences"

Exactly. Except I'm not asking about a relationship per se, I'm asking about what is the best thing to do for the time, with no real goal or outcome in mind, so therefore it's more about the inner, while still being able to see cues and results in the outer. Of course there are unconscious and hidden goals as well, but they should be brought out into the open here.

"don't know if I am making any sense at all, but there are so many dimensions to reflect on "

Lots of different dimensions... it's very helpful to see your perspective.

[gene]

Hi Pakua

After my first post, I really wasn't trying to do a reading for you, just looking at different perspectives within a given hexagram. When I get my books with me, I will look at 42.5. I don't have time however, to go through all the hexagrams, sorry. If you are reading about a particular relationship, even teacher student type, I would be careful about reading too often. Weekly readings are normally for wisdom. If for anything else they tend to dilute the field so to speak if there are too many of them.

Not all sixth lines are negative, Pakua, it depends on the interaction of the lines as a whole. In another sense, nothing is negative, but that is a whole different argument. I just don't have time to go analyze all those sixth lines. I do know right off hand that #53 line 6 describes a very pleasant situation.

Personally, I think you are freaking out way to much over this situation. Just let it be. If she needs helpers, and you are one of the right ones, she will let you know. You do say you have a crush on her, and that is pretty normal for guys with someone they work with that often. I think it may be stronger than you realize.

Perhaps the joke didn't go over because she is trying to display a professional image in line with the class she is teaching? Maybe she is playing teacher to you. I don't know, but right now I gotta go, focus on some other stuff. We can talk about it more later if you like.

Gene

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all your different perspectives.

Sorry if I seemed to imply I was asking for detail readings on all those hexes... I was just thinking of an overview kind of thing, what kind of pattern having many 6th line hexes would mean, and those were just examples. I love looking for patterns.

The other main things were time-lines of readings, and the superior man and feelings, but they can wait for later.

[gene]

Pakua

There seems to be a lot of combinations of fifth and sixth lines, so, I guess, a lot of what I said in the above would apply there too. The combination of a fifth and sixth line is often someone with some authority seeking the counsel of someone who no longer involves themselves with politics, but knows the way, so to speak. This does fit in somewhat as one line can refer to you, and the other line refer to her. That is just one light to put on it though. As she is your yoga teacher, you might be looking to her for light and inspiration. She also may be judging you as to whether you can be a helper to her.

As for a time line, all I can say is, I wouldn't read too often over the same situation. If I have asked a specific question about a specific event, I would give it at least three months, but that is just me. For any individual, it could be different. If you want to read weekly, look for the wisdom the I Ching has to impart, which may or may not impact on your interaction with her.

Gene

[yly2pg1]

Hi Gene,

Just back from my hometown 50km away.

You say you develop chi and jing. So what is Jing from quantum hologram point of view? It seems you know something about 'Jing'.

When come to the end-time prophecies, i like the notion of "entropy", though i may not really understand the term quite right. Yi itself dispenses space-time processes (Hex) at min. disorderity. But there will be one day a space-time realm will run out of "fuel" that sustain the very existence a realm. Just like our body will age when deprived of enzymes, hormones etc while the root can be traced to the disorderity of genes in our body.

You and Your Dad experience in India reminds of the decline of GB. I used to be very much interested in the decline of British manufacturing before I know anything about Yi during my college life. There has been quite a number of research and reports in this area, but at last, something come to my mind. The people in the UK at this era are pretty much "poverty of desire", and it has something to do with India in the space-time context.

BTW, I am from Penang, and Cornwallis used be to be the chief resident here after the US independent. I will tell you more if you want to.

Keep in touch!

[gene]

Hi YLY2

I actually meant Indians here in America. When America was first discovered, the Europeans thought they were in India so they called the natives Indians, but they were really people who look Asian except the eyes are more like ours, and probably originally came from Asia. They were much better warriors in many ways than the Europeans, but they eventually got mostly wiped out do to superior fire power of the Europeans.

The Mayan Indians of South America actually have a calendar that indicates a rip in the fabric of time coming about around the year 2012. Its all very interesting.

Gene

[yly2pg1]

Hi Gene,


About the American Indian, some evidence shows that they are from Asia, and most probably
from China. I personally do not have much problem to believe in that. People migrate for
one reason or another, particularly during warring periods. For example, I belongs to the "Hakka" sect. There are about 50 millions Hakka in China. But they do not occupy a state that can be called their own in China. They are spread out thru out China. There have been a few major migrations for Hakka from the northern China to the rest of China and the process takes up 2 thousand years or longer.

I happen to read a japanese comic (translated into Chinese) about the Warring Periods
somewhere 500 BC in China. The Japanese author make some interesting conclusion about the disappearing of the disciple of one very popular school in China, "the school of Mo".
The fact is there are three major schools of thought in China then namely Confucianism, Taoism and "Mo". The values of "Mo" include discipline, art-of-warrior,and a very resilient and strong sense of survival ... if you know what i am talking about.

In China, the school of "Mo" have somewhat changed after that and preoccupy the Chinese life thru the underground secret societies, which are found in the chinatown throughout the world.

Just like you will not find much direct application of Yi nowadays.
Yi has transformed itself into various school of thoughts and practices, inclusive the acupunture.

[yly2pg1]

Acc. to the Buddhist scripture, there are 28 realms, out of which 80% of the realms
will rupture. Start from the bottom realm and move upwards.
A return to the formation of realms will follow.
Start from the upper realms down towards the bottom. It is a periodic cycle.

End-day prophecy for the earth may be earlier than the rupture of the space-time realm
we are existing. Coz it is a local rupture within a much bigger context. The story about
the ancient emperor "Huang Ti" which is said to be about five thousands year ago is believed
to happen million of years ago by the space-time standard acc. to a author
(who give a different version of interpretation to "Shan Hai Jing").

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

"As for a time line, all I can say is, I wouldn't read too often over the same situation. If I have asked a specific question about a specific event, I would give it at least three months, but that is just me. For any individual, it could be different. If you want to read weekly, look for the wisdom the I Ching has to impart, which may or may not impact on your interaction with her. "

My weekly readings are done with the intention of cultivating the right attitude, of doing the right thing for the time. In that sense, I see it as perhaps similar to "seeking wisdom", as you mentioned, except in the context of relationship. I'm interested in seeing a larger picture. I'm fascinated in how power shifts around, in the patterns that develop, in the subtle energies that exist between people, and how those are displayed and affect each other.

I don't really have a stake in the outcome, except of course wanting things to be fruitful and positive.

So assuming for the moment that it is a "wisdom" type reading, how does one determine how long it lasts? Can one even put a time frame on it? On the one hand I would say no, since wisdom lasts forever, but on the other hand, the times change. What is appropriate today may be inappropriate tomorrow. But how do you know when tomorrow has come?

[yly2pg1]

Hi Pakua,

The danger of Yi lies in its effect that one may tend to become a emotional bystander when one is absorbed to "see" things develop, its development pattern and interactions, coz we are dealing with the worldly. Cherish the right values and doing the right things may not necessary change the course of the development pattern, but it changes its contents.

I like the words "connection" used by Karcher. It imples that the diviner has got the meanings in the process of doing the right thing. Connection is like paving a path when we are really involved in the "process" of making the right choice and doing the right thing when positive result is the fruit of tomorrow.

[pakua]

Hi Yly2pg1,

I agree, there are lots of risks. Using Yi to remain uninvolved is one of them. I think somehow a balance is required. There should be a part of you which remains aware and uninvolved, the witness, which simply observes, while the rest of you stays involved. I find that very difficult. If I try to stay aware, I find I sometimes lose sight of actual interactions, and if I get involved completely, I lose my memory of what's really happening. It often ends up that I'm shifting in and out... hard to do two things at once.

re "connection" I suppose it means to get the right meaning and change your attitude completely and correctly before you engage, then you don't need to worry about what happens during the engagement. And yet, there are so many references to being watchful interspersed throughout the lines.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Cherish the right values and doing the right things may not necessary change the course of the development pattern, but it changes its contents."

How can you change the contents and not change the course?

[levan]

what about soccer predictions?

[yly2pg1]

"Cherish the right values and doing the right things may not necessary change the course of the
development pattern, but it changes its contents." It is like a relationship that does not end with the unity of both sides but true love prevails. Or, one is not able to stop the terminal decline of a business but managed to cut loses and start anew. In both cases the "ultimate" course of the development of that "particular venture" may be somewhat decided but the values and seeds of future exploration prevail.

I notice that the basic ideas of Yi always voice down to simplicity. A relationship may get entangled and complicated, and the people involved may lose themselve.Retaining the awareness of the risk and error, one is able to act to withdraw when things do not workout well; and able to "react" to start anew when the time call for.

Perhaps it will be helpful to know the Chinese meaning of fate.
Thru years of usage of Yi, the Chinese likes to denote the concept of "border" or "limit" to something we call as "fate". Fate is neither deterministic nor it is a random kind of occurrence. When the situation do not render an immediate "connection" to "skip" the "border"
(where the development pattern dictates), the diviner is advised to retreat and to stay still or
inaction. When the "connection" is possible, the diviner is advised to put in sincere efforts.

My personal experience told me "connection" will only be established when we are engaging with the
processes. Connection may be in the physical level or in the spiritual plane (when we have got the right meaning). Do not belittle "connection" coz it is the roadmap for the liberation from a "border" of a particular venture, and you will be surprised how far it will bring you to.

[pakua]

Hi Yly2pg1,

Yes, I understand. No matter what you do, the train keeps on going down the tracks. Sometimes it's like that. You can't always get what you want. That can be confusing too, especially when Yi gives a favourable reading. Usually at those times emotions make everything so difficult. I found though, that if I follow the way as shown by Yi, even though I don't want to, it's better, and indeed sometimes a way is found.

On the other hand, perhaps a different man could have re-routed the train. Or even the same man at a different time might have been able to do more. But that's just speculation.

"relationship may get entangled and complicated, and the people involved may lose themselve"

I wonder how it goes when both people in a relationship use Yi to keep balanced. Would Yi advise both along similar lines, or could there be conflicting advice?

"Fate is neither deterministic nor it is a random kind of occurrence. "

I also see it as both. The trend is there, but random acts occur always.

Do you mean by "connection" as having influence on the matter? Because I would think, as long as you follow your tao, there is a "connection", even when receiving unfavourable hexes such as 12 or 33. One may have a "connection", but no influence.

The trick is to know what is your path, and stay on it.

[ladyganesha]

On the topic of daily readings I would like to chime in here. I have been doing a daily reading for about 10 years now. I have kept them all in an ongoing set of journals. Over the long period that I have used the IChing, I have developed a feeling for the sage. Every morning when I wake up I look forward to the 15 or so minutes that I spend with the Sage as I throw the pennies for my thought for the day. Often when I get time at the end of the day, I pick up my IC journal and write a little something about that hexagram and line(s) in light of how it applies to the day's events. It seems to me that I become more intelligent when I am able to apply the filter of that day's reading to what happened. It helps to refine my insight and perception. It doesn't really matter if it works as an oracle or not, it only matters that I begin to better perceive the laws of nature that are so aptly expressed through the images of the hexagram's and the changing lines.

I have often chuckled to myself when I see events and situations taking place and I can say, "oh yeah, there is hexagram such in such and line such in such expressed to the tee!"

I think when we finally begin to see the events in our lives in light of the lessons that the ICHING champions, that is when we have truly learned its right use. In fact, often when I have used the IC as an oracle, I want to ask the sage why he didn't give me an answer that better fit the situation! For example, I might ask about someone and get an interesting answer from the IC, but time may play out where I find this person is involved in 'inferior things'. So I might ask the IC, why didn't you give me 58 line 2 when I asked about so in so? Why did the sage lead me on this wild goose chase?

Bottom line, I think that the daily readings help us to digest the immense wisdom of the IC in small chewable bites. That is how we learn it; by using it as an oracle. But it is not its accuracy as an oracle that is its core value, its the way that we subsequently develop a rich and meaningful relationship to the Sage.

To me the ICHING is a real back and forth dialogue with the Sage, and I feel so blessed to have that special friend so easy to contact, so honest, so worthwhile in my life.
Lady

[gene]

Lady

I really admire that. To understand that personal connection with the I Ching, something that with all my years I am still working on. It must be a very relaxing and peace inducing practice to feel, truly feel that connection. You said you are new here? I think you probably have a lot of great wisdom to share with us.

Gene

[gene]

Pakua

I really don't know how to answer some of your questions. There is a level in which any answer I could give would be even if true, still totally false. I think the whole point is to begin to have a feel for the connection with the Sage, as Lady is saying she has developed. In a sense, wisdom is eternal, yet in another sense, a certain wisdom is only wisdom in the context of that time and that frame of experience. This is something that can never be taught. And even those who know it, understand it better the next day than the day before, but still don't understand it. Does that make any sense? There are times when the "Superior man hides his light and yet still shines." There is a sense in which this is always the case, yet there is a sense in which it is only the case under certain conditions, for example, when a good man is under the restraint of an evil ruler. These things are eternal and temporal, and one can only develop one's own inner light to know how it is eternal and how it is temporal. When the superior man receives hexagram 20, he/she is not so much being told to hide their light yet still shine. They are to give of their wisdom. So here you might think, this is not the case, to hide the light. Well, true, and yet, not true, for there is always something held back fit for only those who are ready to receive it. I don't know how to explain it. I don't know if it can be. You are going to need to stay in there, do your readings, and do your homework. And as hexagram 61 says, the answer ultimately comes to those of even a greater density. We all are of a greater density, don't get me wrong. It is only when the mind is prepared for a thing that it can receive a thing. And believe me, I am in a struggle every day, to ripen my mind, so I can receive the greater light. I am certainly not there. A wise man once told me, "if you think you are there, you are not."

Gene

[yly2pg1]

"the train keeps on going down the tracks.
Sometimes it's like that. You can't always get what you want...
On the other hand, perhaps a different man could have re-routed the train.
Or even the same man at a different time might have been able to do more."

This is true! It is not speculation.
The "same event" may have different implication to each individual.For example in an organization, you may find a good engineer may not be a good "people" manager and vice versa.
But, given proper training and time to build up confidence and skills, he could do better later.

"I think when we finally begin to see the events in our lives in light of the lessons that the ICHING champions, that is when we have truly learned its right use. In fact, often when I have used the IC as an oracle, I want to ask the sage why he didn't give me an answer that better fit the situation!"

Lots of time, i find my mind not able to frame a clear question.
I have to wait for the Sage to clear it out.

I like to call the Sage - "the wise within" or "the inner voice".
I read a medical article talking about "the wise man within". That was about 15 years ago.
(Until today, i still keep this article)
A real blessing to have a companion within who guide you thru the journey of life.

[ladyganesha]

I think that the Sage can be seen as the 'higher power' of any religion or belief system. It is a force that mediates our smaller self with the vastness of creation and the unknowable Tao.

The treasure of the IC is how it teaches us to live the middle path successfully. It provides us with the bare truth of natural law, and helps us to make sense out of our existence as individuals.

Using the IC as an oracle is an exercise in seeing. The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully. The importance of the oracle is not that it gives us a clear view of the future so that we can have an upper hand or steer existence closer to the realization of our desires, but rather that it affords us practice in seeing natural law as it can be applied to any aspect of the external world.
Lady

[pakua]

Hi Ladyganesha,

I have a technical question for you.

"I have often chuckled to myself when I see events and situations taking place and I can say, "oh yeah, there is hexagram such in such and line such in such expressed to the tee!"

Do you ever find yourself saying this several days after your daily reading? In other words, say you notice the event occurs on the Friday, and it seemed to apply to the reading you had done on the previous Monday?

This is one thing (among many!) that confuses me. If it's a daily reading, shouldn't the scope be finished at end of day? Especially since your mind has determined it wants a time frame of one day, not 3 days, not a week. Isn't part of the experience the mind's intent, in other words the intent should determine which hex comes up?

If/when you see this happening, how do you deal with it? Something interesting, but irrelevant? A stretch of the imagination, with no basis in reality? Indicating a need to focus the mind more tightly? Or....?

"The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully."

This seems to say that it doesn't matter which hex comes up, we can shape it however we want. That's a hard one to get my mind around.

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

Thank you.

(keeping on asking questions) http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[kevin]

Hi Lady
" I think that the Sage can be seen as the 'higher power' of
any religion or belief system. It is a force that mediates
our smaller self with the vastness of creation and the unknowable Tao."

Have you ever adked the Yi what it is and where it sits in the 'pantheon'?

I find it gives quite explicit answers...

BTW - I enjoy your posts - Greetings http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[ladyganesha]

Hi Pakua,
You said, "...If it's a daily reading, shouldn't the scope be finished at end of day? ...in other words the intent should determine which hex comes up?"

This question reminds me of the line that says something like "firm as a rock... what need of a whole day?... the superior man knows the seeds..." The daily reading plants the seeds, and it is not smart to demand the universe produce its goods for you within the limits you impose! This is (grin) subtle arrogance.

I would like to talk (diverge I am afraid) on the topic of subtle arrogance. This is what, I have come to believe, lies very close to total enlightenment, nirvana, samadhi, satori or whatever you call it. Forgive my wordy digression here. If you look at the Book of Job in the Christian Bible, the main point of it is that Job, a good guy by anyone's view, had a silent core belief that he 'deserves justice'. He believed by doing good works and living according to the law of God, he was 'entittled'. In the Book of Job, God and Satan have a bet and they try to drive Job into cursing the name of God. Job wouldn't give in, but came to the point where he begged God to explain "why" he was suffering the enormous misfortunes that had come his way. The ultimate answer for Job was when he saw GOD in its purest form. Job then realized truth beyond reason and logic and justice. Beyond the mind.

When Jesus was hanging on the cross, after just being whipped and tortured and humiliated beyond belief, and he just hung there untill finally he cried out "father in heaven, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus must have felt that after such an act of total surrender, he deserved to be freed from the rest of the pain. Again, justice was the last notion that needed to be transcended before full enlightenment could be achieved.

In the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, The lord/savior Krishna is in a battle chariot with a great warrior named Arjuna. Arjuna must meet his own blood kin on the battlefield and he tells Krishna he would rather die than take the lives of his own blood kin. He wants to know "WHY" and he is pissed that it "isn't fair". Again, the notion of justice and the entittlement to it, were the final lessons that Arjuna had to experience, and he too, like Job, was given the sight of GOD in its purest form and never asked "why me?" again.

Living without the notion that things 'should' be a certain way is what allows us to freely flow with the Tao. The outer world does not need to conform to our notions of logic and balance. We must learn to conform to the constitution of the universe, and the IC is the primer book on learning what those laws are.

When you do your daily IChing reading, the seeds of that hexagram are planted in your consciousness. What sprouts from that will come. But how the plant sprouts, what fruit it will bear and how it will continue to grow depends on the soil of your consciousness and how you, the gardener, attends to it.

When I said "The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully." You answered with "This seems to say that it doesn't matter which hex comes up, we can shape it however we want. That's a hard one to get my mind around".

I guess I am daring to say, at the risk that you won't like me anymore, that this again is subtle arrogance. You must see GOD in its purest form, and never again will you think of shaping the outer world to your own incomplete formula for life. Hex. 2 line 2 speaks about the fact that nature is already equipped, and we don't need to make nature any different, but rather, we need to conform our own self to the constitution of the universe; to natural law. This is the only way we can bend and flow like water, like the Tao.
Lady

[pakua]

Hi Ladyganesha,

I'm thinking we each may be speaking with a different focus. I'm coming from a more technical frame of mind.

"it is not smart to demand the universe produce its goods for you within the limits you impose!"

I kind of see your point, but it's not that I'm demanding anything... I'm wondering how you can do a "daily" reading when you don't know how long the "day" is? How can one do a "yearly" reading when you don't know if the "year" lasts for 6 months, 12 months, 20 months?

Or are you saying, it doesn't matter? Do the reading, live the day, then forget about it?

But what if you're analytical and technical like me, who likes to go back and analyze things to see what happened and how things played out... how do you reconcile things if you don't have a time frame to categorize things?

"The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully"

Let me re-phrase my question. Let's say I'm asking about a situation. You seem to be saying, I might get 55.6 or 1.5 or 23.4. It seems that you're saying, any one of those 3 responses might be valid and correct for the situation. And yet, subjectively, only one will "feel" right, since they all three describe very different situations and prescribe very different courses of action. How could you apply a 23.4 interpretation successfully to a situation that really is a 1.5? You would be doing all the wrong things, wouldn't you?

[candid]

I can fit my feet into any shoes bigger than my foot. And since each hexagram is very big, any one of them can find application. But only one actually fits.

[val]

Candid...

Excellent!

Ms. Ganesha...

I'd love to discuss the meaning of arrogance with you because I really have a problem seeing it applied to anyone with any degree of wisdom. It's such an unwise emotion.

So I started a new thread here -----> http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/786/2733.html?1098203293

Love,

Val

[kevin]

Pakua - You know when to leave a party without looking at your watch?

Yi time is the same.

--K

[candid]

Who let the sage in?

[kevin]

heheheh - In my dreams http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[pakua]

Candid, your metaphors are always so good - they help understanding occur. Now I understand why Chris Lofting kept saying every hex would work, but there was always a best fit.

Just a small point, but if they are all so big, what about the one that fits? Is it the same size?

If I can change the metaphor, it would be like saying, you can use any tool to slice your bread - you can use a knife, you can use a screwdriver, you can use a ruler, a hammer, a jig-saw.... Obviously that's literally correct, but no one would do it, because there are difficulties with all except the knife. If you went around saying that, people would look at you funny, because it's quite a stretch. So in reality, it's not true.

Isn't it the same with saying, every hex can apply, except one is the best? You could stretch them to fit, but is that really the best way?

[candid]

Pakua,

First, I don?t recall hearing Chris say there was always a best fit. As I understood him, literally any hexagram will provide the answer to any question, and the mind will make it fit perfectly.

This is not what I?m saying and it isn?t as I see it. I?m saying that each hexagram contains images big enough (or, exaggerated, as Chris called it) to learn something from it, no matter when it is studied. This is knowledge and general wisdom, which is always nourishing and useful.

The perfect fit is when the timing matches the subject?s condition. That makes the lesson become specific to the question, or to the questioner?s subjective experience.

Picture a classroom where the teacher is teaching geography. It is all good information and helps overall understanding. But when someone asks ?where are my shoes?? it doesn?t help to know that they are located somewhere in the continental United States, even if it?s true.

[martin]

I think it's more like 64 windows.
Each of these 64 windows reveals a different aspect of the situation.
If the Yi says "hexagram 37", for instance, it says in effect "look at it in this way, through window 37, that will help."
The intelligence behind the Yi looks through all 64 windows simultaneously. As if it looks through 64 eyes.
For that intelligence 37 is not the best window. What it see through other windows is not more or less relevant or true than what it sees through 37.
But we have only two eyes, so they make a selection for us and give us one or two hexagrams. One or two fragments of the truth.
The complete truth, within the limits of the Yi, is a 65 dimensional (number of eyes + 1) object that is far beyond us.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/strange.gif

[pakua]

Candid,

Chris used to urge people to go to his website and answer his 6 questions. I thought his reason for doing so was because the resulting hexagrams would be a much better fit than simply throwing coins. I had the feeling he thought throwing coins gave a more random result?

"I?m saying that each hexagram contains images big enough (or, exaggerated, as Chris called it) to learn something from it, no matter when it is studied. This is knowledge and general wisdom, which is always nourishing and useful. "

Ok, I can see that. I had thought that what was said meant, it didn't matter which one came up, since they could all apply, sort of like my friend who always quotes Bible verses to justify anything, even contradicting previous justifications.

It doesn't seem to be as true when you get down to the line level though, does it? How could you interpret 23.4 to fit a 1.5 situation? Or vice versa? One says stop, the other says go.

[pakua]

Kevin,

What if you went with the intent of staying for two hours?

An hour and a half, or two and a half, both seem reasonable.

But if you go with that intent, and you find yourself still there after 6 hours?????? What's going on? Something wrong with your intent?

[ladyganesha]

Hi Pakua and everyone,
We all have our own personal relationship to the Sage. Every thing and person that we encounter in our reality is an aspect of the Sage. I often perceive people as holding me back, and then I refocus and realize that the Sage is holding me back for now. Then, the irritation of it becomes a sweet lesson. But that is just me.

But lets take Pakua's examples: ".. I might get 55.6 or 1.5 or 23.4. It seems that you're saying, any one of those 3 responses might be valid and correct for the situation".

I am saying that all three can be correct for the same situation. Lets say I am talking about going back to school. 55 line 6 may indicate that I am going to be 'cut off' from the common folk because of my uppity new goals. Hexagram 1 line 5 may also be true in that this new venture will be an opportunity to express myself creatively and 23 line 4 may indicate that although I am able to express a side of me that will be positive, I must accept that misfortune is inevitable because perhaps my finances will suffer, or the alienation from others (55 line 6) will cause me to be targeted in a negative way by 'the gang'.

Any action we take extends out from us in every direction. That means that it must have a series of negative, positive and neutral reactions from the cosmos. It is very narrow thinking to believe that a certain action we take will stop at only one consequence and only have one puny little effect on the world!

There is a zen story that sort of flows like this; a young man had an accident and lost his leg, that was bad, but then came war and he didn't have to go, that was good, but then the war took his home because he couldn't defend it and that was bad, but then, because he lost his leg, he had been taught to read and write at the temple and that was good because now he could be employed in a high office, but then.....

So was it good or bad that he lost his leg? It was 55 lin 6, AND 1 line 5 AND 23 line 4 AND ...
Lady

[pakua]

Kevin,

I just re-read my previous post, and realized it might be mis-construed. Sometimes I rush and consequently write without dotting my i's and crossing my t's.

I meant to say, if one finds himself staying for 6 hours when the intent was to stay only two, what kind of influence could that be? Would that indicate an issue with one's intent when first contemplating the thing?

[candid]

Hi Lady,

I like your examples of arrogance and transcendence as expressed by Job, Jesus and Arjuna. Right or wrong, these guys put it all on the line for their sense of justice: a real all or nothing proposition. That?s pretty arrogant, far as I?m concerned. I don?t know how subtle it is though.

It?s also interesting that all three heroes brought the whole thing on themselves:

Job said ?that which I?ve feared most has come upon me.?

Jesus knew full well that causing a gathering around him on the Sabbath would certainly infuriate the religious and political powers, endangering his life. And when he stood before Pilate, refusing to answer the prosecution: that was extreme arrogance. He understood his fate before entering the city.

Arjuna felt entitled to rule the kingdom, and he amassed his army to war against the opponent, including his favorite teacher, Drona, and his beloved grand uncle, Bhishma, and many other relatives and friends. His pride brought him face to face against his family, and his guru. He, through his pride, brought this battle upon himself. Only through transcendence, his Krishna mind, could he carry out his destiny.

Heroes are the most arrogant of victors.

[candid]

PS: I also think the correlation you?ve made with the I Ching is brilliant.

[kevin]

Hi Pakua

?What if you went with the intent of staying for two hours?

An hour and a half, or two and a half, both seem reasonable.

But if you go with that intent, and you find yourself still there after 6 hours?????? What's going on? Something wrong with your intent??

I am maybe not the one to answer this? chuckles? my intent tends to vary, hopefully to be in accord with the time ? on a good day.

If I intended to go to the party for whatever time and say met someone I really want to spend more time with then I would have expected the Yi to have picked that up before I went and when I asked it a question.

[pakua]

Hi Ladyganesha,

"I am saying that all three can be correct for the same situation."

In that case I don't understand how Yi can be used for divination. And yet, of course we know it can.

Let's use your example of planning on going to school. We ask Yi if we should proceed with this plan. It would make a huge difference if we got a reading that clearly said go ahead, or if we got one that clearly said stop. Perhaps you could pick the lines for a clear stop and go (with my limited experience I had chosen 23.4 and 1.5, but perhaps there are better examples).

In this case, only one of the two readings could be appropriate - either to proceed or to stop.

I think I understand your point as it applies to a "wisdom" type reading, as Gene was describing it earlier, but not for a divination "should I?" situation.

" 23 line 4 may indicate that although I am able to express a side of me that will be positive, I must accept that misfortune is inevitable because perhaps my finances will suffer"

I could never proceed with something, knowing that misfortune was inevitable. Surely it would be better to wait until the time was more propitious?

[gene]

Hi Pakua

I missed a lot of the previous conversation, and don't have time to go back and read it. I do want to say however, that it is important to look at why we should go ahead, or not go ahead. Often when it says, for example, "good fortune," it is only good fortune when we are following the mandate of the hexagram as a whole. Sometimes if we read, go ahead, it may only mean go ahead when the overall meaning of the line has been worked out in our daily experience. I have had examples in the past in my own readings where I acknowledged only the fortune or misfortune part, and good fortune turned out to be misfortune when the rest of the meaning of the line was ignored. In multiple changing lines it is very, very important that we understand the meaning of the hexagram as a whole. It is only when we have satisfied the mandate of the hexagram as a whole that fortune, misfortune, go ahead, stop, becomes meaningful. When we understand the context, then often two contradictory lines are not so contradictory.

Gene

[ladyganesha]

Hi Pakua,
I would like it if you addressed what I said in my last post about the young man who lost his leg. Was it a good or bad thing? In everything we do, by choosing one way, we automatically close the doors on countless other ways.

What I am saying is that there is absolutely no course of action that is all positive. Life itself doesn't conform to a flat one dimensional paradigm.

But if you want to micro-manage life via the oracle, you might say something such as "if I buy the lottery ticket today at 12 pm, then will I win the lottery?" Do you really think that the IC's answer to this kind of question will be 100 percent accurate anytime you ask the IC such a question?
You may answer saying, "But MY question is not as profit-oriented as that!"

But anytime you are asking the IC to help you gain the advantage over nature, you are profiteering with the IC. It is the opposite of flowing with the TAO like water. You are seeking to mold the world to your desires, not seeking to mold yourself to the flow of nature.

I am not judging whether doing so is good or bad. Myself, I go back and forth with doing this.
Did you ever read the novel called THE TAO OF WALL STREET? It is a really well written novel about a man who uses the IC to win at the stock market, and does exceedingly well in doing so. But what happens to him is something I too have experienced using the IC for profit, or better said, using the IC to take advantage of natural law.

I have met many people who have a love/hate relationship with the IC due to this very thing. They want to keep control of their own life, but they want to give all their decisions over to the Sage. This is a contradiction of terms. If you want to have control of your life, then the IC is a fabulous course in the study of natural law, but you do the choosing and take gain and loss in stride. Gain will have a down side and loss will have an upside because THIS IS NATURAL LAW.

If you want the IC to tell you what to do, then you give up your precious free will: "lose the magic tortoise and look at me with droopy eyes"--I can't remember what hex/line this is, but it addresses this point well.
Lady

[ladyganesha]

Hi Candid,
Your reply about Job and Jesus and Arjuna was very insightful to me. I practice using world mythology towards real life lessons in my ordinary life. I believe that each one of us is the 'everyday hero' and every superstar is simply an outer expression of an inner state that belongs to us all. We all have an inner pervert, an inner nerd, and an inner genius. I especially appreciate the books written by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (now he is called OSHO)because he deals with this truth often. I didn't like his crazy movement, but his words are like precious pearls nonetheless.
Lady

[kevin]

The man loosing a leg? - Let's face it - I bet he was not impressed at the time.

And then he may have felt disappointed - singled out for not being able to fight for his own...

Rejected as a cripple?

Then ended up in high office - Hell - Hassle and more hassle.

Was it a good thing?

Only he knew.

There is many a sailor who was swept off a boat in a storm only to be washed ashore and meet his true love.

Still grieved by his own - but I expect he knew the truth of his fortune.

I do not believe there is a general rule of good or bad? only the individual knows.

Or a Wise One? perhaps.

[jte]

"But anytime you are asking the IC to help you gain the advantage over nature, you are profiteering with the IC. It is the opposite of flowing with the TAO like water. You are seeking to mold the world to your desires, not seeking to mold yourself to the flow of nature. "

While think I understand what you're saying, Lady, I'm not sure I agree that it's always true - why do you assume that the IC's answers always give you advantage over nature? Has that been your experience? Don't those answers sometimes (often?) help you go *with* the flow of events in a harmonious way, rather than gaining advantage?

I think there's a natural instinct for people to try to turn situations to their advantage. Following the IC's advice doesn't necessarily lead to you following your own inclinations - I think often its advice is more about doing the *right* thing than the most materially advantageous.

- Jeff

[gene]

I read a book called, "The confessions of a Taoist (Dowist) on Wall Street. I think it might be the same book. A very, very interesting novel reflecting the dangers of relying too heavily on its advice, (and there is a lot more to it than that). The main character was named Sun Yi, named after the hexagrams 41 and 42 based on his actions as an infant. Those actions led his caretakers to believe that his life would consist of a time of prosperity and a time of poverty...which turned out to be the case. Haven't seen that book in years, but it was an excellent read. I rarely ever read novels, but that was an excellent one.

Gene

[pakua]

Hi Ladyganesha,

"I would like it if you addressed what I said in my last post about the young man who lost his leg. Was it a good or bad thing? In everything we do, by choosing one way, we automatically close the doors on countless other ways."

From that perspective, and in the context of the story, it seems to me to be either unanswerable, or both good and bad, since every event hinges on what came before that event. Of course, we at the same time automatically open countless other doors, when we choose one way.

Speaking strictly from the physical perspective, and viewing a life as a whole, I perhaps could argue, it was bad, because a life with two legs is usually easier than with one, irregardless of what alms society gives to the unfortunate. Changing the story, who knows what would have happened with his life had he kept his leg - he might have gone to war, learned skills in the army, saved a thousand lives and been a great hero, honoured with a high position afterwards, served his country as a great leader, etc etc. Another story, losing his leg might have driven him to drink for 20 years, and then he's in some bar and meets the love of his life. Is that good or bad?

On the other hand, on the spiritual side, maybe it would have a great benefit to a person's soul to be handicapped. That's what some say. But nobody deliberately seeks that.

"But anytime you are asking the IC to help you gain the advantage over nature, you are profiteering with the IC. It is the opposite of flowing with the TAO like water"

Not if you're using it to try to find your Tao and flow with it. My purpose usually is to try to understand what is appropriate for the time, and how best to do it. I like to try to get "inside" and "underneath" the situation, and see the hidden forces operating. I marvel at that. I like to watch what happens and how it happens.

That being said, if I have a choice between doing this or that, and Yi says this will be successful and that will not, I probably will do this. Nobody wants to fail deliberately. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

The question at bottom is, do I want to flow with Tao in order to be successful, or because it's the best way to be and "success" will naturally follow. I would have to say it's mixed. I still have hopes and wishes, dreams and desires that I want to fulfill.

I've seen it argued that simply enquiring for the sake of self insight is manipulating or profiteering, if the ultimate goal is to better oneself or gain wisdom or become a superior person for the wrong reasons.

"Did you ever read the novel called THE TAO OF WALL STREET?"

No I haven't. I just did a search for it on Amazon with no luck. Do you remember the author? I'd be interested in reading it. It sounds like it might be one of those "be careful what you ask for" stories? Does he give tips on how to use IC on the stock market... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

"...there is absolutely no course of action that is all positive"

Of course. Eventually things change. And within each situation there will be positive and negative. But if you get a reading that's very positive, doesn't that mean that for the duration of the situation you were asking about, it will be positive?

So, back to my question. I think I want to go back to school. I ask Yi to see if that's my Tao. Let's go to extremes for the sake of
example. Either I get a yes, go ahead, everything is favourable, or I get a no, stop, wrong time, wrong place, wrong plan. It seems to me I get one or the other, not either. If Yi gives correct answers, and we know it does, how can they be contradictory? How can it be that any answer will do? Remember, we're being extreme here, so leave out all the "maybe" hexagrams and lines.

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

"In multiple changing lines it is very, very important that we understand the meaning of the hexagram as a whole. "

Oh. Very good point. That explains some things for me. I focus too much on the line, and forget to get the depth in the whole hex, and the relationship between them.

[ladyganesha]

Hi Gene,
YES!!! It was called CONFESSIONS OF A TAOIST ON WALLSTREET. Sorry if I mislead anyone with the wrong name. Do you remember the author's name?
Lady

[gene]

Don't remember the author's name, sorry. And I haven't seen the book anywhere in years. I doubt it is still in print. Too bad, it is a wonderful book.

One of the irony's of the book was that he and his business partner often had very conflicting ideas about the meaning of answers they were getting, and had some serious arguments about which meanings were correct. It turned out oddly enough that both meanings were correct in their own way. You'd have to read the book, I can't explain. It was just a novel, it didn't give any information on how to read, just about how they interpreted their own readings, in relationship to the story as a whole.

If the book cannot be found at amazon.com or anywhere, I will give a little more details about the story.

Gene

[pakua]

Hi Gene,

"We can ask the I Ching about our relationships, about our business plans, etc., etc., etc And there is nothing wrong with that, nothing at all, but unless we read the deeper meaning into it, we simply pass through life making a few less mistakes, but nevertheless ending life the same person as we started."

I was reading this old thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/755.html?1057755268

I was thinking of this in reference to this current thread. It seems to me that simply by making less mistakes, one is becoming more in tune with Tao, and simply by becoming more in tune with Tao, one changes their being. It says somewhere in IC "the greatest good is to make no mistakes" or "to do no harm" or something like that.

I found the book on amazon. It looks like there's a new paperback version. In addition, there's lots of second-hand copies, some for as little as .01 cent!!

[heylise]

From Pakua?s post:
?Either I get a yes, go ahead, everything is favourable, or I get a no, stop, wrong time, wrong place, wrong plan. It seems to me I get one or the other, not either.?
I know you were exaggerating, but how come the answers *I* get are NEVER yes or no? But almost always ?either? (oh well, I am exaggerating too). Must be my own mental make-up, but that means that the yes and no are also in the mind of the receiver (I think). Occasionally finding out if it is yes or not is not really complicated, but usually I am puzzling for quite some time. If this, then .. or if that, then ..

And from Gene:
?very conflicting ideas about the meaning of answers they were getting, and had some serious arguments about which meanings were correct. It turned out oddly enough that both meanings were correct in their own way.?

Now that sounds familiar to me ..

LiSe

[ladyganesha]

Hi Pakua,
Thank you for calling me on my 'hypothetical' reality. I think I should use my own life as an example. When I did readings about coming here to live with my 'tyrant' lover, I got several different readings, all of which were accurate. I got 42 and 14 which was true in terms of material benefits, but I also got 36, a prison, and 31 line 6 which I interpret as 'unrealistic hope'. Now when I ask "should I go now?", I get 31 line 2, telling me to wait.

I am sure that when I do go, I will get some negative answers as well as some positive ones from the IC, because my situation may be better off but there will be sacrifices too.
Lady

[pakua]

Hi LiSe,

You must be asking complicated questions.

I'm a simple man with simple questions http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[gene]

To be sure, I submit that even when only one line is changing we can run into what can be termed as contradictions, or at the very least, confusions. The following may serve as an example:

The question was once asked, in general terms, (for sake of argument), would it be in the bounds of proper conduct to send a card in a certain situation

The answer was 11:3.

Now, if we look at the meaning of the line in the Wilhelm/Baynes version, we almost immediately get the feeling the answer is no. This line generally indicates a setback. It indicates a difficult path ahead. And if we stop here, we might take no as the complete answer. But is it really no? Maybe, maybe not. Let?s take a deeper look. First of all, the meaning of the hexagram as a whole is very positive. Third lines however, as a rule, are not so positive, so once again we might think no. Let?s look deeper. In this hexagram, the third line is yang, and it is in a yang position. Therefore, the line is correct. The usual problem with the third line is that it is below heaven, and about to ascend into heaven. If this is not proper, it gets slapped down, and forced back into the earth. Here, however, heaven is below the earth and therefore supports it. The line above it, which it has a secondary relationship with, is yin, as are all the lines above it. These lines are receptive. Not only that, but the line has a connection with the sixth line which is yin, and in its proper place as well. The proper placing of lines in the Yi is yang below yin. Heaven supporting earth.

Now to complicate things further, or to explain further, take your pick, when the third line changes we receive the relating hexagram, approaching. I realize many don?t use the relating hexagram, and that is understandable, but a single changing line will normally have developed right into it a relationship with the hexagram it changes into. Approach is very positive in terms of answering this particular question. If we abandon Wilhelm/Baynes momentarily, and seek an answer from Stephen Karcher, we see something more positive. Karcher does note that there is hardship, however, this is all part of the overall plan to arrive at the final destination. And what does Karcher say that destination is? ?Going through the hardship will lead to the meal shared with spirits.? Before we think there is any contradiction between Wilhelm/Baynes and Karcher though, we can note that the former also states, ?as long as he remains inwardly superior to fate, fortune will not desert him.?

So what is the true answer? I think a lot depends on the intuition regarding such a situation.

Gene

[yly2pg1]

Hi Gene,

The image of Hex11: The small is going, the great is coming.
At 11.3, it has approached the transition point where "the great is going, the small is coming".
The same happens in Hex12. At 12.3, the changing line is near the transition point where "the small is going, the great is coming".
Both 11.3 and 12.3 reflect the turning points from great to small and vice versa respectively.
The events during the period of turning point is sometimes confusing. Just like the weather in the transition period between Winter and Spring.

I find that Sam Reifler places a good focus in the interpretation of the changing lines
against the backgound meaning of the hexagram. I always find a consistent changing pattern in his interpretation throughout the changing lines in one hexagram.

Generally, changing line at 3 and 4 occupy "earth plane" between Heaven (5th/6th line) and Human plane (1st/2nd line). These areas at many hexagram always carry a meaning of gray area, ambiguity, uncertainty. Hence the strength auspicious hexagrams will be somewhat compromised here; on the other hand, the degree of bad influence of some other hexagrams will be somewhat relieved.

[pakua]

Hi Ladyganesha,

"I got 42 and 14 which was true in terms of material benefits, but I also got 36, a prison, and 31 line 6 which I interpret as 'unrealistic hope'. "

I hadn't realized one could ask about relationships in separate categories ie material, emotional, etc. I had only ever asked about the whole thing in general. Reading this board, I'm learning one can ask anything!

If I may ask, is that in fact what you did - ask separately about each aspect, or is your statement above your interpretation after the fact, just to illustrate how a situation can have different aspects which are reflected in different answers?

My main interest in Yi is relationship, and I don't really understand how you can separate the Tao of a relationship into aspects or pieces.

I'm thinking this because, in one translation I have, by Guy Damian Knight, he calls 42 Spiritual Wealth, and 14 Wealth. If one's relationship has spiritual wealth, then surely there is something valuable going on in the whole realtionship, not just the material aspect. And in 14 doesn't it show some value in the spiritual side as well?

One paragraph he writes in 42 particularly struck me, after having read your other posts: "your primary responsibility is to be of help to others, to both the lowliest people and to leaders of society" and also "...you have a tremendous capacity to help and assist others who are not so well endowed with good qualities..." and "if you are willing to help and develop the potential of people who need such help, what you do will have excellent results. All your talents revolve around an ability for this kind of work"

At the same time, for 36 he says "you do hold the winning hand, but do not show it yet"

Keep in mind, I'm a novice, so pardon me if I'm off base.

[pakua]

Also, I forgot to ask, "when I ask "should I go now?", I get 31 line 2,..."

Isn't it strange that you get 31, which is basically about attraction, rather than something like 33, or 12 or some other retreat type of hexagram?

[ladyganesha]

Hi Pakua, all,
Thank you for sharing about 42 and 36; I am not familiar with the IC translation you use, but those comments were fascinating to me, and seem to apply to my situation well. In a sense I do feel that I have an 'upper hand' much like in a sado-masochistic relationship the victim is in control of the victimizer. That notion has kind of a well known psychological premise. To answer your question, yes, I did really get those answers when asking the IC about my relationship.

Forgive me if this post rattles on and on but there are so many points I want to comment about. First, about asking more than once about a relationship; I think I mentioned elsewhere that I often feel like my IC questions are like having a real conversation with the Sage.

Some people, using the message in hexagram 4 as a premise, think that they are not supposed to ask twice. I don't agree. Imagine if it were my own child asking "when are we going to go?" over and over again, the same question, then it would be right to answer once and ignore any more stupid questions that are just an attempt to manipulate me and communicate impatience. But, if a child asks me "where are we going?" and then "when?" and then "how?" and then "who?", this is the child's natural curiousity and it is good to share the new information. The Sage knows the difference and so do we.

When I get an answer from the Sage, I think about it. If it still doesn't make sense after I have really pondered and meditated, I will ask more refined questions to get more clarity. In this way, I feel like I have a living, breathing communication with the Sage. And I will also reiterate that I know very well that nothing is ever all black or all white, so asking more questions about the situation will help you to refine your perception of the situation and give you wider perspective of the big picture.

I also want to mention that the IC might be called a book about relationships. Even when it talks about possessions (14) every line is about relationships with others as they pertain to possesions. In other words, there is really no hexagram and line that is not about relationship!!! The IC commentaries we read are often inspired by Confucius who used the archetypal relationships between family members; father to eldest son/middle son/youngest son etc. to generate all possible scenarios in life. This existence we live is really just one big course in relationships.

That said, there are still certain specific hexagrams that are more about the development of intentional relationships than others are. In this light, whenever you are thinking about asking the IC about a relationship of personal desire versus one that exists 'accidentally' such as a co worker or family member, then there are certain premise 'rules' that you should always consider before you decide what your question to the oracle is going to be. For example: Half way; no more and no less. I like the way that Carol Anthony discusses this. If you are giving 75% and your lover is giving 25% in the relationship, then you are doing wrong and so is your lover. So ask yourself in the relationship; is the 50-50 rule being met in this case? If not, why are you asking anything else except about that issue and what to do about it? There is also a human inclination to always credit the amount that we ourself do over what the other person does. In other words, we always see our own contributions as bigger than the same effort done by the partner. But allowing for this margin of error, hex 41 line 1 is about the damage you do by giving or taking more than what is balanced for the situation.

So when we decide to ask the Sage's advice about a relationship, we should stop to consider the clear 'check list' that already exists within the founding principles of the IC. Some of these principles are in hexagrams 8, 13, 31, 32, 44, 53, and 54. I have to force myself to stop there because really EVERY hexagram is about relationships. But if we use the ones listed, we can immediately ask ourselves primary questions about the relationship before we ever even need to throw the coins. 8 is about whether we are strong enough to lead in the union or should we be the follower? (32 line 5 is also about this) Do we respect where this person is steering his/her life? Would we trust this person to steer our own life if we had to? 13 is also about this. 32 tells us about how a lasting relationship is formed; very slowly and organically. 44 and 54 have a lot to do with the half way and no more/no less idea.

To try to cut to the point I am making, if we consider the base line principles of the IChing, we can answer just about all of our questions about a relationship without using it as an oracle.

Nevertheless, I often am shocked when the IC gives me information that I did not myself perceive. For example, sometimes I get 17 line 4 which often means "others are being insincere with us" and I am shocked because I am too naive to see that fact myself. I usually doubt the IC until lo and behold! I discover the IC was dead on accurate.

Also notice that the relationship hexagrams are made of of lines that are mostly negative in their judgment. 31; about attraction, is on the whole negative! So is 44 and 54 give or take a few. One might conjecture that the IC has a very pessimistic view of intentional relationships and perhaps rightly so.

As for me personally, my ability to perceive correctly in relationships and to 'read' other people accurately is hampered by the fact that I come from an alcoholic family. Often dependents of alcoholics are not able to decide/perceive the true feelings of others because they were never sure of the feelings of their primary caregivers because the alcohol was always in the way of their true expression.

I think that the Sage 'knows' this debility in me and so, with compassion, helps me out by giving me hints about people that I wouldn't naturally perceive because of my lack of adequate inner resources to see for myself. In this sense, the Sage re-parents me and helps my inner child 'grow up'.

I could go on and on--it is such a big subject, but I think I will force myself to stop here.
Lady

[pakua]

Hi Ladyganesha,

"it still doesn't make sense after I have really pondered and meditated, I will ask more refined questions to get more clarity"

I'm still at a loss as to how this is done. Perhaps it's because when I receive a reading, I tend to focus on how it feels as a whole, with the emphasis on the word "feels". Perhaps I haven't learned yet how to verbalise or intellectualize what the response means, and somehow I stay mostly at the feeling level. Or maybe I ask simpler questions. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

If I don't understand the answer, I leave it. If it's so unclear that I don't get anything, I figure that my mind is too hazy to think of better questions and it will just confuse things more. Then I kind of put it on the back burner and watch to see what happens.

"I also want to mention that the IC might be called a book about relationships."

That's how I see it - the politics of relationship, of human interaction.

"is the 50-50 rule being met in this case?"

In general I agree, but surely there might be long periods where this rule must be set aside? There might be several months or years where one person grows faster, where one person gets stuck, where one gets sick, etc. Then it's up to the other to give more for awhile.

"Nevertheless, I often am shocked when the IC gives me information that I did not myself perceive... helps me out by giving me hints about people that I wouldn't naturally perceive because of my lack of adequate inner resources to see for myself."

I am almost always enlightened by Yi regarding either myself, the other or the situation. Especially when I feel an emotional response or feeling. I think we have so many fears and illusions, we almost never know what's real. Most of the time I suppose it doesn't matter, but at important times it does. I have the hope, if we keep training ourselves using IC or some other practice, eventually we start to see reality more clearly. But maybe that's just another illusion - maybe I am what I am and only life experience has a teaching effect and I'll die only slightly less stupid than when I was born http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Once in a while when I get a reading I'll say yes, that's what it feels like, but usually not, especially when it's a difficult time.

"Also notice that the relationship hexagrams are made of of lines that are mostly negative in their judgment. ... One might conjecture that the IC has a very pessimistic view of intentional relationships and perhaps rightly so. "

And yet, it seems the hexagrams as a whole are positive. Perhaps when we receive a particular line, it's because we have some specific imbalance going on which needs to be addressed?

I don't see why it should be pessimistic - humans need to interact and have relationship. Isn't the essence of IC to describe the rules as to how this should be done, and if the rules are followed, there will be success.

[ladyganesha]

Hi Pakua,
Perhaps you can offer up an example of what kind of question you asked and what the answer was. It is hard to talk in terms of hypotheticals.

On the other note, yes, people need to interact and have relationships, but it just seems to me that the IC likes family ties and arranged marriages far more than it likes relationships that are based on lust or personal inclination. The IC tends to favor relationships based tradition-ruled obligations with firmly established roles for everyone concerned.
Lady

[ladyganesha]

Hi everyone,
On the subject of multiple moving lines, I haven't read the thread thoroughly. I didn't see whether you already considered the notion that each of the lines represents one 'department' of the whole question. For example, line one would be a 'service' position, two would be how the question involved relationship, three would be how the question related to ego/identity issues, line four would refer to the question in terms of advisors, mediation, influence of important people, five might pertain to the question in light of its opportunity for creative self expression and line six might be how it applies to one's personal spiritual dharma.

I often look at multiple moving lines in terms of time. The lowest changing line happens first, and so forth up to six. Like there are stages that the situation will pass through and then culminates in light of which hexagram it changes into.
Lady

[heylise]

Love your descriptions, and agree completely with them.
When one sees a hexagram as a logical structure, or organic, then more moving lines are no problem at all. They are much easier to oversee, and contradictions simply apply to different aspects, so that too is no problem.

I have a page in my website about the line-places, so it seems more practical to give the address instead of giving my view here.

http://www.anton-heyboer.org\i_ching\structures\lines.htm

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/2778.gif
mind and spirit active and yang, everything else calm and yin.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/2779.gif
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/2780.gif


LiSe