Any chance of a marriage proposal here?

[oxtraordinary_ox]

Hello fellow Yi-lovers,

This is my first time posting, so please be kind :-)

A friend of mine has a very important decision to make, and I wouldn't want to leave her fate in my novice hands.

She is currently in a long-distance relationship with a man from another country. They are going strong, and he recently asked her to move in with him. This would entail for her leaving her home, quitting her job (which she loves), placing herself in a financially dependent position, and facing rather uncertain prospects in her lover's country of residence. She doesn't necessarily mind making all these sacrifices, but only if their co-habiting will ultimately lead to a marriage. She is not interested in entering this kind of situation without marriage prospects, but she is also reluctant to ask her lover straight out what his intentions are.

So she asked the Yi, instead, (basically, if their co-habiting is likely to lead to a marriage proposal, should she accept to move in with him) and got 9 (lines 1 & 3) changing to 59...what do you, guys, think?

Any input is welcome and appreciated!

[micheline]

Hi Oxana,
I would hate to be the one doing a reading on this kind of question! It is a rather momentous decision to make based on the Yi's advice about a "hoped for" outcome of this nature.

Nevertheless, IMHO. 9.1 seems to say "come back to safer ground" and 9.3, if it is indicative of the future, implies there would be a halt to the forward movement and a lot of domestic disagreement.

More likely, the yi is pointing out that the man and woman are not communicating clearly (as they need to be before making such a huge life change) and this all unto itself will hinder the forward progress.
Return to the place where you are still free to make the decision -in other words, re-think- and
don't go forward until you have sorted out the rather important details, such as *mutual expectations* Don't you think?!
All the best and welcome to you!

[bradford_h]

I too would see indecision, a lack of commitment and a failure to communicate ultimately keeping her where she is. These two need to talk some more. Maybe have a trial run, keeping a place to return to.

[jte]

It would be a very tough situation if she took this step and went all the way out there only to find that her not-talked-through-and-confirmed expectations weren't going to be met after all, no?

(That's general advice, not specifically from the reading, which I think Micheline and Brad already did a great job covering.)

- Jeff

[oxtraordinary_ox]

Micheline, Bradford, Jeff -

Thanks to all of you for responding!

You all have great points, and yes, I agree 100%. Basically, this is more or less the interpretation I came up with (my friend is very new to the Yi, so she was tossing the coins, and I was doing the reading for her). I wanted to make sure, however, I wasn't being swayed by my personal opinion of the situation.

This is a great community!

-Oxana

[frank]

Hi Oxana,

Hexagram 9 is about clouds with no rain... tension without resolving... She is actually afraid of taking the big plunsh, I guess, and she should be! Hexagram 9 is about small chanches. Lines 1 & 3 together make 36... (Changing lines making Yang...), and Hex. 36 is about your own individuality. She is probably confronted by what she is preparing to give and her own limitations. Have to figure those out first... And 59 as result is about vaporising... The relationship will do no good right know. Need more time, take small steps...

Hope this makes some sense.

Hug.
Frank

[oxtraordinary_ox]

Hi Frank,

Thanks! Yes, it all makes sense...Hex. 59 always confuses me, since I never know what exactly "dispersion" means within its context...I agree that its most immediate implication seems to be vanishing, evaporating...yet, Huang also talks of it as melting away of the obstacles, renewed possibilities of unhindered communication...Within the context of my friend's reading, either interpretation makes sense, so I am not sure which one I should pick, and it makes all the difference you know!

Not sure where hex. 36 comes in - as far as I can see, the moving lines change 9 to 59...I must be missing something...

:-) Oxana

[stuart]

line three of hexigram nine points to a warning of husband and wife not in harmony.line one of hex nine is restraint from trying to obtain something before the time is right.I think this is not the time for a marriage because the situation will not be equal to both parties.However in time the situation could change and bring the desired result.

[matt]

Im a little old fashioned here, but shouldnt it be the mans position to accomodate the woman? I mean, a man should not ask a woman to leave everything she has behind, take no risks himself. If he is truly a man of genuine character, he would try to make the move himself, and if hes a man who truly understands his woman, then he would realise she has much she values in her current life. Its the man who should venture. Sorry if this seems a little 'outdated', its just that I would never ask a woman from another country to leave her life for mine, I would strive to bring my world to hers.

[matt]

Oh btw, my birth hexagram is 59 Dispersing, so maybe this is why the question affected me so much. lol http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[val]

Matt...

I don't have a birth hexagram, and that was my same feeling as I thought about this on the way home last night. If he thinks it's time to move in together and try it out, why hasn't he proposed that he move to her country?

My first question would have been "Would it work if he moved here and we moved in together?"... especially if I have a job here that I love.

Love,

Val

[oxtraordinary_ox]

Matt & Val,

Lol, you guys are amazing :-) My friend will be touched by your concern, I am sure...Okay, some background before you take the poor man apart...

My friend is actually a huge fan of her boyfriend's country, and is completely fluent in his language. At some point, she was actually exploring the possibilities of moving there on her own...but then she had all those exciting developments in her home country, which are now making her reluctant to move. Her boyfriend is a successful lawyer and is about to inherit the family law firm, so it would be extremely impractical for him to move in with my friend in her home country.

She, on the other hand, is in international business, and is currently employed in a company that does business with her boyfriend's country. In her line of work and with her language proficiency, she would have no trouble finding employment in his country, and he is even ready to help her, but in order for her to be able to seek employment she needs to be in a status other than "tourist" in his country. And even if she managed to get a job authorization, she now realizes that she is quite happy with her life in her home country, and would want to go back if her relationship with this man were to fall apart. If, on the other hand, they are going to be married, she is content to make her permanent home in his country. Hence, all the marriage questioning...

Hopefully, the man stands acquitted...

PAX

-Oxana

P.S. Matt, you're exquisitely charming in your old-fashioned ways...

[frank]

Hi Oxana,

I come up with hexagram 36 as I see very quickly all kinds of 'helping'-things in the answers of the I Ching. The answer you received was hexagram 9, 1st and 3rd line changing into hexagram 59. By making ONLY those two lines a YANG line (as Karcher, among others tells us you can do..) you receive another hexagram, in this case 36. By taking ONLY those two lines or ONLY those lines who actualy CHANGE within an answer you receive, and make YANG lines of them (closed lines), and the other NOT changing lines yin (open line) you receive a hexagram that is helping you to see what the situation actually is. In this case it's 36, so all about sunlight that is put away. Where SHE is attached to something... (fire, as as fire must be attached to something to give light..., like a match) that particular 'something' is hidden... put away. Perhaps yes, like Val asked 'why has HE not make a proposal to come to her country, at least for a holiday or some months to try out? It is never a great thing to emigrate on pure emotional bases... That's why you actualy received 9, as there are only posible small steps. Hexagram 9 is also about details... There could be something overlooked, because of all the emotions involved. Think realy everything over before making such a drastic desition. It's never a bad thing to let your mind come between things where a 'love-bug' is involved :-D. You can still love each other very much :-D... I realy am not saying that this relationship is doomed to end soon, no way... but... it could be when she makes a giant leap, before realy thinking things over... Take it back to a slower speed-limit :-D... that's all.

I hope this makes some sense again :-D.

Hug,
Frank

[frank]

Hi Oxana,

I posted my last post before you posted yours, so now I have some more details. You did not receive hexagram 9 for nothing. Right now it could be a problem to marry... Hexagram 9 is about waiting till the rain falls out of the clouds..... The figure is also about trigram wind above heaven... it's not wind above land... (moving to another country), as heaven means our head and thinking, perhaps the whole idea needs a little more adjustments, before she actually can fly over water... (59 = trigrams wind over water...). Matt's and Val's idea's still stand :-D. But I will give both the lady and the man credit :-D. A tough thing to make it a booming buisiness for both :-D.

But still... let's see it a bit further then... By actually receiving hexagram 9 as an answer, you know that there are only small steps to be taken right now, no big ones. Looking first at line 1 "Looking back to one's own Dao, how can this be inauspicous. Good fortune" (translation of the Yijing by Wu Jingnuan.). She needs to get deeper into her intentions and find out what she wants realy deep down... By changing ONLY that 1st line, you get hexagram 57... Wind... Penetration... into deeper meanings... If you then look to the 3rd line at hexagram 57 (beware... 57, NOT 9!!!, as 57 is an 'in between hexagram', another helping tool) you read there: "The Incessant Wind. Regret". It's possible there could be no restingplace and they keep on moving (houses, jobes) when they actually want to marry these days... Perhaps the job she is looking for could be a tougher thing to find, even with his help, then they are thinking. I still wish them all the hapiness in the world when she desites to emigrate and marry though, but this is what the I Ching tells us :-D.

Hug.
Frank

[val]

Hi Oxana...

Acquittal? Him? Why? This isn't about him. This about her. She's the one considering making the move, and she has 100% of the responsibility for her choices and decisions. What does she want for herself? What does she want to achieve with him? Why does she want to move to his country? These aren't questions I want answers to. These are questions (plus many more) for any woman in her position to ask herself. And the answers to these questions might explain why the Yi advises strongly against making the move. The purest reasons for man and woman to unite are love and companionship... not money, not fame, not power, not image, not others' expectations and not opportunism. And from what you said in your last post, it really sounds to me like your friend is a bit about opportunism.

I don't really think Matt is old-fashioned at all. I agree with everything he said. It's a matter of consideration, and I personally wouldn't accept less consideration than Matt expressed from a man I was considering spending the rest of my life with. I don't believe any woman should.

Love,

Val

[clarissa]

She shouldn't move unless the man marries here BEFORE she goes there. Asking anything less from her is wrong on his part. If he wants her to uproot herself to THAT extent....he needs to give her the ultimate guarantee.

[bruce]

Oh, bad idea, Clarrisa. If there's this much doubt before even meeting r/t, it's likely to be a disaster to marry, sight-unseen. Been there, bought the T-shirt.

I don't think the formality of who moves to whom is important. What is important is that it works for both parties equally, practically.

From the sounds of Ox's reading, this affair is much ado about nothing.

[clarissa]

That was kind of my point Bruce. The guy isn't going to marry her...so she shouldn't go. Obviously the woman wants to get married...so she shouldn't settle with cohabitation that will MAYBE lead to marriage...especially picking up and moving to a foreign country. That's nothing but a waste of time.

[bruce]

I see what you're saying, Clarrisa, I think. There should at least be the mutual intention of marriage, if they pan out to be compatible. If this is what you mean, I agree.

[peace]

I think is a big move - and Hex. 9 means restraint - and the rain has not yet happened and the clouds are full.

There is alot of communication and details to deal with.

The one who is moving and changing everything has alot to think about.

I too agree with Frank and Val. She needs to be honest with herself about marraige. He needs to be honest with himself about whether he's willing to make a commitment.

In a long distance relationship, it's really hard to know someone. You miss the day to day "details".

She may want to examine - What makes it so strong?
How much is fantasy of what she thinks it is? What is her history? What's similar or different here?

Big decisions...I would not make them quickly.

Frank - I don't understand why you say Hex 36 is about individuality. I've always looked at it as the hex. I hate to get because it means I'm out of touch - and all is wrong. Please say more about it.

Also - is there anything written to explain that changing line theory you explained. I find it hard to follow.

Thanks,
Rosalie

[heylise]

Hexagram 9 is about taking care of your own farm, and especially the small things in it, animals, kids, feelings. Do things in a caring, careful way, according to the feelings of all involved.

They have both a job, they could manage to make her come over for a holiday. Just a few weeks, and then going back. She will have no trouble anymore deciding after that, she will know.

LiSe

[frank]

Hi Rosalie / Peace,

It's realy not that difficult to find that tool I use... In this case you get hexagram 9... you also get lines 1 & 3... The ONLY thing you have to do is to look at the CHANGING lines (in this case lines 1 & 3) and make them YANG (a full straight line...). The theory behind this is that changing lines CHANGE... that's ACTION... YANG is ACTION, so the ACTION is symbolised by a YANG line. The ONLY hexagram with a YANG line in the positions of lines 1 & 3 is hexagram 36... It's only another way of looking at an answer where the hexagram you received (9 > 59) could give less information... The tool I mention here is called in The Netherlands the theory of the "Confrontation Hexagram", or "Phase Hexagram", something you are in right now and have fo face... There are a lot of 'helping' tools to read an I Ching answer and this just another one of them :-D. I used it so much that I automaticly see this hexagram within every received hexagram someone can get as an I Ching answer.... Can be pretty anoying to sometimes, because you forget about the hexagram you actualy received in the first place :-D. Wich here is Hexagram 9... I only used this other hexagram method (to get 36)to give another argumental proof for my interpetation of this received answer.

Does that make it a bit more clear to you :-D?

Hug,
Frank

[frank]

Hi Rosalie,

O my goody :-D... I see that you actually asked about 36 in another way... Oh boy... there goes my explanation... 36 and Individuality is because it is somehow said in that matter by a Dutch I Ching master back here in the Netherlands, but also in the text of the Images... You have the Judgement and the Lines as text, but also a text in what is called "The Images"... In the dutch book is said that "The Noble Man lives with the big masses, dims his glow and still shines" (somekind of english interpetational translation :-D), so stay to who you are... Individuality... Not that bad to get... :-D

Hug,
Frank

[peace]

Thanks Frank.

Too many interpretations for me - who is studying each one in a very disciplined way.

Right now I've been working with #1 Creative for a few weeks and I read in Wilheim and Huang and Anthony (although she kind of confuses me more but I like her psychological thinking).

Did you every see the Illustrated I Ching? It's by R.L.Wing. I think that helps with images also.

Thanks.
Rosalie

[frank]

Hi Rosalie,

I can understand it can be to much information. Sometimes it works for you and sometimes it don't :-D. And well... I have the I Ching Workbook of RL Wing, not the Illustrated one....

Hug,
Frank

[rosada]

Hello,

I am new to the group. I have been enjoying your comments for some time and thought today I'd add a few of my own...

In this discussion, although it seems the friend has already decided moving in with her fellow in hopes of a marrage proposal, would be a bad idea, it seems to me we answered the question just using common sence but we haven't really dissected what the I Ching has to say. The change lines seem quite specific so I thought I'd continue the discussion a little further just because the answer does appear to be such a splendid example of how clear our oracle can be.

First I am assuming the question is, "would moving in with her friend lead to a marrage proposal?"

Hexagram 9 discribes a situation where one has only minor influence. Thus right off we see that the I Ching recognizes we are not talking about whether these two are lovers or whatever, but rather it simply deals with the girl's wondering how she can parlay what she has into what she wants. Hexagram 9 says she is in a very weak position, like a servant who can only slightly influence the master.

Using the Wilhelm translation:


9.1 says "Return to the way.
How could there be blame in this?
Good fortune."

Return to the way suited to your situation, where you are free to advance or retreat. In the nature of things this will bring good fortune, for it is wise and reasonable not to try to obtain anything by force.

Well! this sounds pretty cut and dried to me. the girl should return to where she can come and go as she pleases. The I Ching even hints that this might even lead to her ultimately getting that proposal. But meanwhile, far from blaming the fellow for trying to manipulate her, the i Ching clearly points out that she must not try to force anything from him!

9.3 The spokes burst out of the wagon wheels.
Man and wife roll their eyes.

Oh boy, now this really tells us the plan is a bad one.It's totally unstable and it can't go anywhere. Mainly because the man, the wheel, expected something to roll along easily and he is surprised and angry (rolling eyes) when he is rebuffed.

This second change line warns her that the man was not thinking of this as a trial marrage, but rather the proposal was his whole plan, and it wont hold together and will lead to fights and arguments and not move the relationahip ahead.

Hexagram 59
Dispersion
The king approaches his temple.
It furthers one to cross the great water.
Perseverance furthers.

Dispersion refers to elements scattering, yet the Judgment is encouraging. The "temple" implies that religious forces can help hold things together. In this instance, it appears to me to be saying in hexagram 9 that if she moves in with her friend without the benefit of marrage she will find her self in an untenable position almost that of a servant, that she would be better off to stay where she can make her own decisions and no one can blame her. Further, 9 suggests if she moves in with the man they will argue over this arrangement. and this will lead to this will lead to Dispersing, going their separate ways.

The I Ching specifically states in Dispersal that religious forces -i.e. marrage - can often keep people together when the times cause them to feel like breaking apart. Thus it gently suggests that if she truly loves this man and wants their union to last she would be wise to be married. Perhaps the first step would be to Cross the Great Water and go to his country, but not live with him? Perseverance does further....

And so one question leads to another...

Thanks for reading,
Rosada

[peace]

I reread 9 today (since I got it as a reading for myself) and focused on something new for me that I didn't see before and I think it's subtle.

It said that:
9 is not about inner character so much as it is about refining external manifestation of your character.

I saw it (for me) as internal character is one thing and it's fine to develop it.
But this hexagram is about restraint and refining how you show the world your character.

So - you could have a strong, decent character, yet alienate others by being self-righteous.
According to how I read #9, you would focus on restraining your character, for now, and learning how to present yourself in a way that people are more receptive to listening to you.

Rosalie

[bruce]

Hi Rosalie,

The line between 9 and 22 can be a bit thin, where character refinement is concerned. I think 9 is very much about internal work, because that is where character is fostered; whereas 22 is the outward showing of beauty.

Consider Ox's original question. "Her" answer was to hold back and go to work on her inner self, not to go out and show herself to him. There's too much rigidness in her thinking, feeling pressured to act and respond. She needs to tend her own sheep, to make them confident and secure. This isn't administered through hardness of character, but like the wind guiding the clouds.

[peace]

Hey Bruce:

I totally agree with you and the restraining aspect of 9 fits for Ox. It has absolutely nothing to do with "him" or what he sees or doesn't see. She needs to get it together for herself. The wind guiding the clouds is so fitting.

I wasn't thinking of 9 as outward beauty as in 22, which I believe can be somewhat superficial and a facade. You can be all image with 22.

9 is about internal character - if we "fix" the inside, it will probably give us a different energy in the world whether we realize it, work on it or whatever - but by truly refining the way we present ourselves, we can also further refine the inner character - since in the integrated person the inner and outer are related.

Rosalie

[val]

Hi Bruce...

Re your last post... Here, here! Very good interpretation. You nailed it.

Rosalie...

"but by truly refining the way we present ourselves, we can also further refine the inner character"

Backwards. The outer follows the inner. You do the inner work, and the way you relate to others naturally changes. I know this from experience. Besides...

"Refining the way we present ourselves..." You mean not acting naturally? Not just being ourselves?

Love,

Val

[val]

Hi Rosalie...

You know I just thought of an instance when changes in my presentation sort of impacted my inner changes. The change was definitely inner, but I changed my presentation to reinforce it. The inner change was learning (and understanding experientially) that I, alone, own my feelings, actions and behaviors and am, therefore, solely responsible for them and learning the difference between blaming and responsible language. The change in presentation was changing my language accordingly.

Instead of saying "you hurt me," I said "I feel hurt," instead of "you make me happy"... "I feel happy when I'm with you," instead of "you make me angry"... "I feel angry when you do/say that." But sometimes I was stubborn and didn't want to say so. The more I said so, though, the less stubborn I became. And the less stubborn I became, the easier it was to say so. So I guess you could say the inner and outer changes sort of worked together for each other.

Love,

Val

[bruce]

Good observation, Val. I think 22 can sometimes work that way. It could be something as simple as ironing a denim shirt I'm going out in, or blocking a hat, or dusting off mah boots (grin), which creates a small but also important change in the way I see the world that day. Vain? Probably. But a little vanity can feel pretty nice, and makes life a little more friendly.

[val]

I've been meaning to ask you Bruce. Do you like a dress heel or a work heel on your boots?

I personally prefer a work heel. And I don't know if that's more about the feeling of security I get with a work heel... or vanity... I like the look better too...*grin*

Love,

Val

[bruce]

Well, Val, between us, I don't do heels, or teddies either, for that matter. lol

But really, I haven't worn boots in awhile, and preferred a natural or work heel when I did wear them. Something about nothing being there until a mil-sec after you're expecting your heel to hit the ground that takes a little getting used to with the forward slant riding heels, such as this pair is equipped. But I've become used to them now; not dragging my heels, as they say.

I never imagined ostrich to be so comfortable. These required practically no breaking in at all. I also dropped in a pair of the newer material inserts, and they wear like slippers. Slippers with heels, that is.

Now I don't mind so much leaving my chariot and going on foot.

[void]

Dying to see them, cmon I'm into boots, heh heh, and in your profile pic you appear to be wearing black socks, cmom Bruce put your boots on for your profile pic -(or ignore me I might be going through a funny phase) These were the boots by the way that were sanctioned by the Yi weren't they ?

[bruce]

LOL! santioned by Yi. Sounds like an ad campaign, Void. Chisholm Boots, sanctioned with a seal by Yi, worn by Taoist cowboys everywhere!

[martin]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5459.jpg

[void]

Heh heh, yup, 'the boots that tread heavens way' and if the Sage of the Yi were a man who wore boots, for sure these are the boots he would wear !

[bruce]

Whaddia mean if? hmph!

Martin's diggin for worms...?

[lightangel]

No. He thinks he's hiding..
He can see it coming.. now Void will want boots too.
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[void]

I wish i knew what Martin was doing ? Burying his head in the sand ? Something he doesn't want to see ? Hmmm Ah of course he doesn't want to see Bruces boots !