How to understand the changing lines in hex. 44

[ole]

There are some lines that remains a mystery to me, f.ex. hex.44 (Coming to meet) line 2 and 4.

Fish in a tank/wrapper is used as symbol in both.
In 2.line it says:
There is a fish in the tank. No blame.
Does not further guests.

In 4.line it says:
No fish in the tank.
This leads to misfortune.

Reading different translations and comments on this, it seems that authors are also puzzled by these lines.
Some (the ones that hold on to hex.44 as about the *negative* feminine) say it is about "inferior elements" that can rotten like fish in a tank. But then, how comes that its a misfortune NOT to have them in a tank (line 4).

Karcher think of them to be about pregnancy, as he also see hex. 44 as a whole to be about a positive meeting with the strong feminine.

Line 5 is also a mystery. Here it is about a melon instead of fish. Again traditionally the melon is seen as a symbol for something that could decay. But a "hidden line" or "hidden beauty" as Balkin translates it, that "falls down from the sky" - does it mean pregnancy?

[rosada]

Good morning!
A few weeks ago a visitor came to our house. After he left I asked the I Ching, "What was that all about?'" and got 44.1.2.3.4.5.6>24

This toss seemed to neatly define the episode.

44. An unexpected intruder.
A fellow came onto our property asking permission to hunt deer. He had a large coil of rope which he offered togive us in exchange for this favor. We turned him down.

44.1 It must be checked with a brake of bronze.

Ordinarily the fellow would have not been able to get on our land but the metal gate was open.

44.2 There are fish in the tank. No blame.
Does not further guests.

There are deer on our land. Not problem. But this "guest' would not further them!

44.3 If one is mindful of the danger, no mistake is made.

This line implies one might be indecisive about the temptation. The only indecision here was how to get rid of the guy. I got my husband.

44.4 No fish in the tank. This leads to misfortune.
Turns out my husband knew the man, a neighbor, and although he had to tell him "No fish!" (no deal) he was able to do it in such a friendly way that no harm was done.

44.5 Then it drops down to one from heaven.
The fellow offers us the rope anyway, as it seems he had lots of it.

44.6 He comes to meet with his horns.
Humiliation. No blame.

We did not accept the rope even as a gift. The fellow left. I don't think he had any negative feelings towards us, but if he did we sure didn't care!

Insidentally, 44 talks about meeting people half way. We went out to meet this man as his truck drove up to our porch. By not requiring him - or letting him! actually come to our door I think we disposed of the whole incident more smoothly.

Rosada

[val]

Hi Ole...

Steve Marshall devoted a chapter to this hexagram in his book, The Mandate of Heaven.

On this forum in a very lively discussion entitled "44-33 Does it mean stop, it'll be good if you don't do a thing" (which you can access by using the hexagram index or search engine on the left side of this page), he said this about lines 2 and 4 in particular:

<blockquote>"Tank" in Wilhelm is a mistranslation of Cary Baynes from the German. Wilhelm had "container" and Baynes naturally but mistakenly thought of a tank. It is actually a willow-wand fishtrap placed in the river from which are divined marriage omens. If it catches a fish, lucky, if not, ominous. I wrote a whole chapter about this. Yes, the second line is a good omen (and not in a "minor sense", no this is a really good omen), the fourth line is a bad omen, irrespective of later ideas of correspondence."</blockquote>

Love,

Val

[rosada]

Greetings Val,

Wow, this is a very important clarification!

To apply what you are saying about 44.2 to my own experience, I was interpreting " There is a fish in the tank. No blame. Does not further guests" as meaning that while there were deer on my property and there was no blame in this, and that I was not obligated to further the desires of the intruder/guest."

Now I see it that the intruder was the "fish" that I had caugt in my tank/net. I was very polite so there was "No blame," but did not let him get any further to hunt my "guests"/the deer.

Not so clear about what this new understanding means for 44.4. Perhaps "No fish in the tank this leads to misfortune" means if one does not stop the intruder there will be a problem? In my case I did not stop the intruder - but I got my husband and he did. I am always worrying that if the I Ching says something is bad, it just is, can't be changed. But i guess that's just the language problem and that if the Yi points out something negative it's so that you can change it?

Anyway, thank you for the insight!

Rosada

[jesed]

Just in case the commentarie could be useful, another way to see this.

General aspect: This hexagram is about the exercise of POWER and GOVERMENT.
The common people take the initiative to meet the the nobles. This is dangerous, a temptation, but it can be a good meeting.

So, the hex is about how to handle the relationship with common peoble, because IT IS UNEVITABLE that rulers meet with them. So, you cannot eliminate common people, but need to learn how to handle them to avoid danger.

(By extention, it can be apply to lower aspects of personality and negativities)

Line 1: If you let common people do what they want, their power will grow and drop you from power.
Line 2: If you keep common people under your control, is not a fault; but be careful they make alliance with forengeir states.
Line 3: Some times your are tempted to do alliance with common people in order to face dificult times. But only if you can realize it is dangerous, you can avoid great harm
Line 4: When the noble put common people away, they won't help him anymore: Pitfal
Line 5: When the ruler is a self-development one, he can tolerate common people; he doesn't force them to do right, but transforms them with the quiet influence of his example. Good fortune
Line 6: A sage that face strongly the common people will be acussed of pride and suffer humilliation. But it is not fault

Best wishes

[val]

Hi Rosada...

Oh I don't know. I just find the historical information fascinating... and I think it does help to understand what the ancient people who wrote the line might have meant to interpret it. But when it gets right down to it, I read intuitively (and from experience... like you just did). If and when all goes well, the answers jump out at me. They feel right. So if your take on 44.2 felt right at the time, I suspect it probably was.

And YIKES! That whole story sounds pretty scarey. He brought a gun and a length of rope onto your property??? Did you ask the Yi any follow up questions... like just how stable is this guy?

As it happens, as much as I am able to easily discern what 44 means for other people I read, I don't get what it's been meaning for me lately, and it's been coming up daily for the last few days. I don't have any addiction... or attraction to anything else I would consider dangerous to dally with, and it's been the answer when I've asked the Yi to tell me something descriptive of the man the universe is touting for me. I'm at a loss on this one, and I have a gazillion questions myself.

Love,

Val

[jesed]

Hi Val
Just in case the commentarie could be useful

Among other meanings, when the questions are about relationships, 44 is also about people destinated to be together:
"When heaven and earth come to meet each other, all creatures prosper; when a prince and his official come to meet each other, the world is put in order. It is necessary for elements predestined to be joined and mutually dependent to come to meet one another halfway. But the coming together must be free of dishonest ulterior motives, otherwise harm will result" (Wilhelm commentarie of 44's Judgment)

Best wishes

[jesed]

ps

As I told before: there is a common misunderstanding about 44. . it is about somethig more than temptation and danger.

Irony: 44 is about copulation. In the same way many people sees 44 only as tempation and danger, many peolple sees copulation only as something "nasty".

But life depends of copulation????. (Don't forget it when read 44)

[jte]

"And YIKES! That whole story sounds pretty scarey. He brought a gun and a length of rope onto your property??? Did you ask the Yi any follow up questions... like just how stable is this guy? "

Yeah, sounds like it probably wouldn't be advantageous to marry this one... =)

- Jeff

[hmesker]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Irony: 44 is about copulation.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I think this is a misconception. Quoting myself (with scrambled Chinese characters, too bad, can't do anything about it):

The Shuo Wen comes yet with another character for &amp;#23012;, it says: &amp;#23012;, &amp;#20598;&amp;#20063;. "&amp;#23012; means ou &amp;#20598;". &amp;#20598; has many meanings, of which one is 'a mate' or 'to mate', and this is probably the reason why several writers translate hexagram 44 as 'copulating'. But the Shuo Wen is the only dictionary which explains &amp;#23012; in this direction. There are no texts available where &amp;#23012; is used in the meaning of 'to copulate'.

See http://www.i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/56-A-Mulan-in-the-Yijing.html

Harmen.

[jesed]

Hi Harmen

Only a little thing:

I know actual academic studies look only (or mostly) to "original text". But there is, as you know well, a huge more material and developments (even non-writed developments). My commentarie "44 is ABOUT copulation" doesn't belong to Zhouyi or direct text. But for those other developments.

Of course, study "original text" is not only useful and worthly, but needed. But knowing others developments is useful and worthly too.

Best wishes

[hmesker]

Hi Jesed,

If that is the case, can you motivate why '44 is ABOUT copulation'? I assume you do not just repeat what others have said before you, you probably have your own ideas about this. And if 44 is about copulation, why couldn't any other hexagram be about copulation as well? In short, what makes you say that 44 is about copulation?

Harmen.

[bruce]

Just a comment on 44.4 ? I?ve found and applied this to mean that if we turn away from things or people which are less than we consider to be ideal, we lose the potential (fish = fertility) to further them and ultimately ourselves. These fish may seem to be unimportant to us at the time and not worth troubling over, however if our creel is empty we may go without dinner, or at least desert some time in the future.

Applied to this hunter on your property, Rosada, your first interpretation sounds pretty good, but you might also consider that it is not uncommon for a hunter to provide the land owner with a thank you token of fresh venison, assuming your family eats meat? This could be an example of ?no fish in the tank?, if you forbid him to hunt. And this is how I would interpret your line 4. You could always make hunting rights contingent upon sharing of the game taken.

Btw, a deer hunter typically carries a deer rifle, and rope to tie up the game. Nothing to be aghast about.

[val]

Hi Rosada...

Thank you so much for sharing your experience here. Reading it has forced me to think about 44 possibilities that I haven't really wanted to think about... and...

Rather than hijack Ole's thread, I've started a new thread about it... if you're interested. I invite Jesed to read it... there might be something of interest for him there. And, of course, I invite Harmen and anyone else who has put a lot of study into 44 to read it as well.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5464.html?1131571129

Love,

Val

[jesed]

Hi Harmen

Sorry to read this from someone i respect so much like you: "I assume you do not just repeat what others have said before you, you probably have your own ideas about this"

Why was necesary the rudness to say you are not agree with my point of view?

Yes, I have my own ideas about why I think 44 is about copulation (among other several meanings)
Yes, those ideas are (in part) learned from what other had said
Yes, I take my own conclusions about it
No, I'm not interested in egos battles.

So, if my commentarie that 44 is about copulation is useful to someone, best wishes to them
If the commentarie is not useful to someone, best wishes to them
If someone want to do a proper-maner interchange of ideas about it, I will do
If someone want to do a ego-batlle about it, he can fight my shadow

Best wishes

[bradford_h]

All the lines and all the hexagrams are about copulating. Every one can address a question about coupling. It's a very naughty book. There's just a really big variety of ways to do it. 31.X is one of the best. 54.0 is trouble as well. The hardest maybe is 12.0, back to back. And some lines just say GFY.
This tip for young lovers who've already done all the surfaces in all the rooms. The Yi is full of ideas.

[bruce]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif right on Brad

[val]

I can imagine your parents' confusion, Brad, when they found the Yi under your bed rather than a Playboy.

[ole]

Thanks for all the enlightening information - especially I was inspired by the link to Steve Marshall you offered,Val.

I was looking up "fish" in Ritsema/Karcher. The Chinese term YU can be translated to: scaly, aquatic beings hidden in the water; symbol of abundance; connected with the Streaming Moment.

If this is true translations, it does not support the idea of some "rotten" inferior influence.

And we are then left with two total opposite interpretations of lines in 44.

And I sympatize with having an open attitude to symbols, again referring to you, val.
Still there is a problem with this. As a westerner, when I was new to I ching, I understood the Dragon, as an evil symbol, as it always have been in our fairytales, which gives rise to a peculiar interpretation of Hex.1,1.

One of my friends ask me a question, just as I was going to fetch another translation of I Ching to bring a different light on his cast. He asked: "Shouln?t the cast I did be interpreted in accordance with that particular book we were sitting with, when we did the cast?"

Taking this idea further: lets say I developed an alternative divination system, composed of 64 abstract principles I found meaningful and created 6 ways of dealing with the principle for each - would it not be a strange assumption that my cast could additionally be interpretated using the book of Change?

Sometimes I think that all our hard efforts to investigate into what a line might have ment for people living in a cultur we hardly know, is waste of energy. That is if we stick to the assumption that I Ching is about synchronicity.

Probably I ching has gone through a lot of change it self during the time it were developed. There is not much evindence that the full developed system fell down from the sky in a final,complete version.
Balkin points to the irony that all the wisdom that is found in IC, was not to be found in the original Bronze age divinatory text. That if one strips away confucian, daoist and neo-confucian interpretations, one does not get profound and eternal vision of human life, but advices about whether the king should go on a hunt, what to do with captive soldiers and the best way to perform human sacrifice!
Perhaps these guys would be surprised to see that thousand of years later we are using this tool to decide if we should buy a new computer :-)

[val]

Hi Ole...

Very interesting post. I've found that the Yi's answers usually seem to be well reflected in whatever interpretation I pick up... except for Wilhelm/Baynes. I've always had a lot of difficulty with that one. I even threw it out once many years ago and didn't buy a new one until almost three years ago. Since studying only the ZhouYi and looking for historical information such as that Steve Marshall provided, I now know why I've had such trouble with Wilhelm Baynes. He's made a mush of the ZhouYi and the wings and stirred it just a little too much. It now sits on my shelf collecting dust.

I've never made that assumption that I Ching is about synchronicity... and never will. My experience has been otherwise. My experience is that the mind is very powerful and has the ability to control the outcome of the coin toss.

I disagree very much with this alleged statement by Balkin. I believe if you strip away all those contradictory and conflicting interpretations (many ideas advanced in the daodejing pointedly contrast Confucian philosophy), you get a much clearer image of what the lines really mean.

Love,

Val

[bradford_h]

I think somebody needs to take a few moments to ponder, and try to come up with a couple of reasons why, to the Chinese as elsewhere, the fish might symbolizes the feminine sex. Try, for example, looking up Vesica Pisces in the dictionary. It's only really a puzzle for those who can't see any intentional humor in the Zhouyi's text.

[hmesker]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Why was necesary the rudness to say you are not agree with my point of view?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Jesed, I did not mean to be rude, it was just a way of saying what was on my mind: "if Jesed's view is not based on translation, then it must stem from something else. I wonder what that is. Surely he is not saying '44 is about copulation' just because others have said that before him."

If I have offended you I am sorry for that.

Harmen.

[bradford_h]

When people say that a certain hexagram is "about this or that" I think they are missing the broader function of the Yi. I wasn't joking in saying that any line can be a response to a question about copulation. And a line which has some fun with an image related to copulation can be the response to a question about auto mechanics or credit card bills.
The hexagram themes are metaphors and analogies which are intended to recall certain ways of responding to life, certain approaches or attitudes. To always take them too literally is to miss out on their broader applicability. The images need to remain more flexible than such literal interpretation allows. There are only 450 responses here to speak to all possible questions.

[void]

I looked up vescica pisces in the Concise Oxford dictionary. It says its a bladder - or pointed oval used as an aureole in medieval art.

So I have to admit I'm not that clear about why fish represent women. I'm assuming you mean fish represent female genitalia ? Bit insulting to refer to women only by their genitalia ? I don't get it, I never knew fish represented women before ??? What then represents the male ? The boar ?

[void]

Ole I agree with Val if all the overlayed interpretations are stripped away, Confucian etc and you get near the bare image of the line it becomes a hundred times richer in its application.
This is because an image can be used in a million ways to a persons mind, so many ways in which it reflect their different situations.

In this respect those who bring us knowledge of the 'original' meanings of lines are doing something of incredible value - restoring the Yi to us.

The great thing is mostly when I read the original meaning of a line it never clashes with my own experience but kind of confirms and supplements it.

[lasublime]

just a little something about fish and copulation, when my grandmother had a dream and fish were involved she always would say, 'I saw fish in my dream,someone in the family is pregnant' and you know what, she was always right!!

[hmesker]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

When people say that a certain hexagram is "about this or that" I think they are missing the broader function of the Yi.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Hi Brad,

I agree, especially when a view is not based on translation, but on interpretation. And with interpretation every hexagram applies to everything. Which is a good thing, of course. Every hexagram can tell a lot about an aspect of a certain situation. In other words, if you see 44 as 'copulation', I think it talks about it in a specific way, not just about it as a technical act. Since every hexagram can say something about copulation, then what does 44 say about it? That is interesting to ponder on.

Best,

Harmen.

[bruce]

Original transcript translation seems to me to be an essential baseline, and I?m extremely thankful for the likes of Brad, LiSe and Harmen for presenting their knowledge within the form of these dialogues.

I have always felt that the most important thing to realize when working with the Yi is that every dynamic is an operating component within ourselves. Being completely honest with ones self is the only way to recognize Yi?s most intimate truths. Nothing substantial can be gained without applying each principle within our own thought processes regarding our own person. Yi is like an ultimate self-adjusting tool. But it can be hard doing that if the student is usually looking outward for solutions. It?s hard to remove the spec in someone?s eye with a beam in our own.

[bruce]

As for Ole?s last comments: ?That if one strips away confucian, daoist and neo-confucian interpretations, one does not get profound and eternal vision of human life, but advices about whether the king should go on a hunt, what to do with captive soldiers and the best way to perform human sacrifice!?

It?s no different now than it was then, Ole. You can strip away everything Confucian or Taoist, and still arrive at the same meanings. Taoism didn?t invent Tao, it only gave it a name. Today as then, the majority of inquiries are not about self development, but about the best or most acceptable way to perform this or that ritual, or paying rent, or making enough money, or gaining the affections of another. Now as then, there are also those who seek and find ?an eternal vision of human life?.

[bradford_h]

Talk about insulting to women (which the fairly universal symbolism of the vesica pisces as the birth canal is not) the title of Hexagram 44 in the Mawangdui text is a different Gou - a female dog, a bitch, esp in heat, to hound, a term of contempt. But I would submit that when the aroma of one's fingers and moustache reminds one of fish, one has not been disrespecting one's woman then either.
But that isn't the point. The broader theme here, which the hexagram names need to be stretched out to cover, is keeping clear of influences which undermine higher order and purpose, keeping clear of interference, avoiding being seduced away from what is more worthy. Sexual eduction just happens to be a very powerful symbol of this. So line one looks at self restraint, line two at saving yourself from random acts of generosity, line three at a consequence of weakness, line four at the consequences of being too strict or aloof, line five is a celebration of deferred gratification's timing, and line six suggests that the point of all that protective headgear was not to avoid relationship.

[bradford_h]

One more thing. The biggest obstacle or distraction to understanding this Gua is to seize only upon the two words "Nu Zhuang" Woman/Maiden is/has strong/power and immediately forget everything else while assuming that this is all about empowering women. The P.C. crowd, new agers and feminazis are especially wont to do this. But "Wu yong qu nu", it is not useful to court this woman, is forgotten, apparently just assuming that the Zhou Chinese did not like strong women.
Personally, I think there were a few very strong, witchy women among the Zhouyi authors, and where the book does take pot shots at women it is for being weaker than they need to be in character (fretting over a lost carriage curtain, giving up self-possession for a wealthy man, etc). However, 44 is more about the power we give over to others than the power we assume for ourselves.

[jesed]

Hi everybody

I hope I can express well, to avoid misunderstandings and others assum I'm saying something I am not saying

1.- I'm not saying 44 is ONLY about copulation; in the same way I am not saying 44 is ONLY about exercise of Goverment neither saying 44 is ONLY about people destinated to be together. But sometimes, yes 44 is about copulation.

2.- I agree with no to take too literaly the expressions and texts (so, not taking too literaly the text, with a flexible uderstanding as Bradford said, "coming together" can be a sexually coming together, isn't?)

3.- On the other hand, I also agree with no to take too much flexible the expressions and text that any hex and line could mean anything. Peace is not War, and War is not peace, altough Peace can lead to War and War can lead to Peace.

4.- So, related to interpretation of text, I agree with the Balanced Way (as in everythinh in Reality). Flexibility/Literality must not be extrem, but balanced.

5.- Even more, most important that text analysis is Wisdom. Text analysis is needed to learn Yi's Wisdom. But isn't enough to learn Yi's wisdom. And the measure of that is not academic arguments (for others or for oneself), but Reality. At the end, one should responds if one idea (or interpretation)
is confirmed or denyied by reality.

6.- There are several hexagrams that use in its text references to the fundamental relationship for humanity: inter-sex relationships. BUT NOTICE that not every hexagram does (even if faced to questions about inter-sex relationship any hexagram can told something to described it). Some of them has fortune omens (and later developments had said it is because the inter-sex relationship is corect) and some others have pitall omens (and later devleopments had said it is because the relationship is not correct)

7.- Following that idea (with a little basis in text, and further development in later speculations) one can say that, related to hexagrams with texts references to inter-sex relationships, "correct relationship" leads to marriage (like 32 and 53); and "incorrect relationship" leads to not-marriage (like 54 and 44)

8.- Following that idea (every time more based in specullation, but remaining the nexus to original text references), you can say that there are represented diferent stages and cualities of inter-sex relationships. That means 32 is not 44; 44 is not 54; 54 is not 53.

9.- 31 is about (saying "is about", I want to mean that is not it's only meaning, but it can be one of the ways to understanding it) one sex trying to influence other. If the action is correct, it can evolve to marriage; if doesn't, it wouldn't. 32 is about a stable and correct relationship; 53 is about both sex walking correctly step-by-step; 54 is about a relationship ruled by pleasure and free-will (not legal obligation), but with danger of loosing correction; and 44 is about the fact of both sex coming together (including physically: copulation)... if that action is "halfway" is correct and fortunated; if doesn't, is dangerous.

10.- As you know, some later developments had said that 44 is one female wich is courting 5 men. From that image, some had said 44 is about a promiscued person. I don't like that interpretation, but some times this answer describes well that situation IN REALITY (not only about sexual promiscue, but about unfair desire of a goal).

11. Now, as I had say. All this speculations most be faced with reality, in real use of Yi Jing. I had do it. An I had find that several times, 44 is about copulation (as sexual and physical "coming together").

12.- Now, on the other hand, if one is saying that 44 never is about copulation, then how can them argumented that "coming together" exclued a sexual and physical "coming together"?

best wishes

[bradford_h]

Hi Jesed-
Just so you know, there was nothing in my notes directed at things you said. Some words I used were coincidentally words you used too.
I just went on and on because this is one of the most misunderstood of all the Gua, when it should be one of the simplest. For some reason the subject of copulation drains the human brain of blood.

[jesed]

hi Bradford

"this is one of the most misunderstood of all the Gua, when it should be one of the simplest"

I'm absolutely agree with that, as I wrote on November 09, 2005 - 2:38 am in this post

Oh, another thing.
Now in a "translational-level": I had re-reading your's translations on 44 (both the Simple and the Matrix).
Harmen had said "copulation" is not a correct translation for the name of the hex(except one dictionary). So, I think you can tell us more about it, since it seems that you had found "to copulate" as one of the correct translations for gou4.


Best wishes

[void]

Thanks for elucidating Brad, I think I understand. You mean sexual seduction is a powerful symbol of being seduced away from what is more worthy - thats all. Not that all strength in a woman is undesirable -

Refering back to what Bruce said though sometimes if you choose not to follow something you believe inferior, say like certain ways of earning a living, you may end up with no fish to live on. I remember you talking about this on another thread, it had particular resonance for me, thus I had come to associate fish with livelihood, food, money, thus I got puzzled by an association of fish with women, or 44 with the birth canal. Sorry maybe I don't get it as much as I think I do
but I'm here to learn, lol.

[bradford_h]

Void-
Yes. This is the seduction of a chance encounter, or the seduction of thinking that this happened for a reason, that it's more meaningful than it is. Gou isn't long-term commitment loving, it's just an affair. So it's easy to find things more worthy.
I think strong women were desirable in the courts in which the Yi arose. You just didn't want them making a drooling fool of you. I like this line from neurocyberneticist Warren McCulloch:

I want a woman with a windy cheek
And eyes as steely as a leveled gun ...

[matt]

You dont have to understand complex texts to derive meaning and significance from hexagrams such as 44 - just use your own powers of observation and life experience when the hexagram presents itself in a situation - then you have all the ancient and present knowledge you require.

My own experience of 44 is not directly related to the seduction of a strong woman, it is more to do with the recieving of outside energy with a stable base to articulate it. For example, the outside trigram is Force, great creative power, the inner trigram is ground, the pairing and matching of inner and outer energy. Ground's inner matching recieves Force's outer substance, making the connection seem very intense and immediate. The bottom yin line feeds all of the recieved information to our inner core, giving us an open channel of communication to the 5 yang lines above. So in essence, it feels like experiences are pouring into us, arousing emotions of great intensity and power.

There is a simple solution to understanding 44, when you feel like this, just shift your focus to the outside, try to clarify the experiences you are receiving rather than just let them pour in. In symbolic terms, this can create a central yin line in the outer trigram Force (5th line), and gives you the ability to articulate the great emotions and transform them into useful experience. Now the space (yin lines) serves your energies in two places - your inner core (bottom yin line) and the outer world (5th yin line). This joins yin and yang into a composition that allows the articulating of the yang lines into knowledge. Hmm, I think I've rambled in a bit..

[matt]

thats should be "it is moreto do with the recieving of outside energy WITHOUT a stable base to articluare it" sorry http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/sad.gif

[val]

I have to say, taking a cue from Matt... and following my experience with 44... I feel that, in his last post, Brad really underestimated what 44 is trying to say. And 44 is trying to warn the querent against just that... underestimating... this woman, this alcohol, these drugs. It is unwise to believe that one can have a short term affair. This is not a woman/substance/whatever to be trifled with. There are other hexagram and line statements that say "short term affair." I don't think 44.0 says that at all, and I don't think 44.2 or 4 say it either.

I believe Rosada read 44 correctly about the intruder on her property, and I believe her response was absolutely appropriate. My really educational experience with 44 (that Rosada helped to call to mind) was the time the two women at work were in a power struggle, and I was the pawn. The one was trying to get me fired because I reported to the other one... told the VP I was taking breaks all day (rather than my lawful three a day). She WAS dangerous to my job and therefore my survival. She had a lot of influence with the VP, and she could have easily gotten my fired.

So... I was taking my (lawful) morning break and consulting the Yi about something totally unrelated, and all they would say for two or three castings was 44 to 28. Suddenly it hit me the Yi was trying to warn me that she was going to make a sneak attack. I jumped up from the table and went right back to work... just moments before she pulled up at my facility. I thanked the force behind the YI with all my heart for the rest of the day. She was not a problem as casual as "a harmless affair"... and she was NOT to be dallied with.

Love,

Val

[micheline]

a little like glenn close in Fatal Attraction...it seemed like a harmless affair, but poor michael douglas. never underestimate a psychopathic bitch in heat whose biological clock is ticking loud. the image of 44

[void]

uurgh thats nasty, the last sentence I mean. I really don't think its an image of 44, just sounds like pure misogyny to me. And I don't think 44 is about misogyny. Funny though that there a films etc about female stalkers whereas in reality stalking is usually done by the male.

Fatal Attraction was about a woman who was prepared to commit all kinds of unlawful acts to get her man wasn't it ? How on earth can that relate to 44 ?

[rosada]

Cool analysis, Matt! Now it makes sence without going into the male/female drama. Perhaps 44. could be retitled, "Too Much, Too Soon." or just, "Waaay too much information."

Micheline, as Void points out, your comparison wasn't very nice, but it was pretty funny..Maybe we could include it in The Moviegoer's Guide to the I Ching!

my2cents,
Rosada

[bruce]

Pardon me, but what does nice have to do with anything? Ever try to reason a pregnant wife away from ice cream and pickles? Is a mother bear nice when she makes shredded wheat of a human who got too close to her den? Ever hear of a nice black widow spider, especially to her husband? Anyone who thinks nature is nice might wish to reconsider 44.

[kevin]

A movie scene

One of those movies when the screen is all bright white ? nothing else. (Qian).

Then at the bottom a small dark smudge appears, sun, which sullies the perfection of plain brightness. (shock)

Despite all of that perfect bright whiteness that tiny smudge dominates the screen.

It begins to develop? It is a sprouting pushing upwards. A manifestation, which though dominated by all of the brightness, dominates the whole.

It promises something. It is the beginning of something.

Somehow, were the screen to return to plain white, there would be an emptiness.

Or was it a wind (sun) which blew across the all white screen? Unseen, ungraspable, but affecting all.

K Wanders off muttering incoherently to self.

[micheline]

I am sorry if my post sounded like misogyny...the *bitch* was referring to a female dog not a woman....and of course, the movie is an image of 44 because the temptation was there and it seemed harmless, but it proved to be very dangerous, for the man who allowed himself to be casually seduced. that to me is the message in 44..but it could just as easily be a man who is seducing a woman...or a seductive type offer of any kind......

glenn close played a psychopath who was very hungry and very desperate....the bitch line sounded harsh but i didnt mean it too...i have a couple of female dogs...but actually it is the male who gets psychopathic when the females are in heat. Men can be dangerous too.

but lets face it, women can be REALLY dangerous...( : just my opinion.

[micheline]

Thank you Bruce, for that post. It might explain in part why human women can be so dangerous...we have had a pressure to be "nice" when it isnt natural.

[bradford_h]

Actually, Micheline is spot on in describing the kind of power (Zhuang) ascribed or handed over to the woman (Nu) here.
Technically, or according to physics, power is the Rate at which energy changes form. It's value neutral, whether constructve or entropic. The power to collapse order is the easiest to succumb to as it obeys entropy. Falling apart releases all of the energy used to maintain order, the energy of restraint that is the subject of Hexagram 44. And it takes a lot to resist entropy. That's why the king has to repeat his commands (in 44.X) - they get all undone by the wind.
The power to get something specific done is the subject of Hexagram 34, Da Zhuang, great power. This is more work than brute force. It needs sensitivity to the right time and place, "it shows itself in the pause", it is "found in the vehicle's motionless axle".

[micheline]

thanks Brad. what you point out about entropy and power is very interesting

[bradford_h]

Hi Micheline-
Do you not pick up notes sent to the eMail address at your profile? I tried to ask you a question off- forum and would still like to.
brad

[bruce]

Yes, very interesting points, Brad. It is always easier to succumb, unless there is a stronger reason not to. And this reason needs to be firm and repeated to build resolve.

That said, it is also true that such strong resolve can itself become a disintegrating influence, the maiden of 44. Hence the creative power spurred on by the woman can also liberate and bring new life.

[jte]

On Brad's point that:

"The power to collapse order is the easiest to succumb to as it obeys entropy. Falling apart releases all of the energy used to maintain order, the energy of restraint that is the subject of Hexagram 44. And it takes a lot to resist entropy. That's why the king has to repeat his commands (in 44.X) - they get all undone by the wind. "

Interesting to compare 23 and 44 in this light. I'll have to mull that over...

On Val's point about the very real danger:

I agree (and indeed have an experience to back it up), but I'd also point out that just how dangerous the tempting thing is depends on the situation.

To take the example of a short-term relationship. A dalliance might not really cause much trouble for a couple of 19 year olds. Maybe some post-breakup bitterness, but little permanent damage. (Of course it *might* if there's STDs involved or the guy goes crazy and becomes a stalker, but that's probably not the usual case.)

On the other hand, a dalliance between married adults with families has could perhaps have much worse consequences. So, IMO, the actual level of the danger and potential negative consequences depend on the specifics of the situation.

The example I alluded to earlier: On a lark I asked the Yi for open-ended advice about a cell phone I received as a Christmas gift. Answer was 44.1. I was surprised at this answer, but got the message: this thing is potentially dangerous. Sure enough about two months later there I was slamming on the brakes in my car, nearly rear-ending someone while trying to make a call with it.

A potential source of problems? Most definitely. Sure to cause destruction? Not if handled correctly. I do tend to be *real* careful with it now, though...

- Jeff

[bradford_h]

Hi Jeff

Interesting to compare 23 and 44 in this light. I'll have to mull that over...

Yeah - they're both the inverse of the opposite and the opposite of the inverse of each other. Who would've Ever thought that meant something :-)

[anita]

I was haunted by 44 regarding a Dutch copywriter I met in a bar in Maastricht last year. So I did not think it was going to be a great romance, anyway. He invited me to see Amsterdam by boat (his boat) and I took it up. I'd just broken up with long time long-distance German love. My Dutch fling turned out to be extremely sex-oriented, but he still keeps in touch.

44 to me seems synonymous with sexual encounters.

Best for your Quest

Anita

[yellowknife]

I logged onto this site interested to see how the "44" discussions" had developed over the past few days. I'd felt I wanted to contribute but hadn't been sure what I had to say.

First though I did a casting for my current situation with an unconventional humanistic/existential counsellor I'm in a therapeutic relationship with.

Where are things between us now?

44,2,3,4 to 45

How are they developing?

44,6 to 28.

Aha...no wonder I had 44 on my mind.

I'll share this because I think it's a relevant side of 44, though I feel slightly vulnerable in sharing;

I've been seeing this counsellor a year for personal development reasons and because I'm about to be in training to be a counsellor. He's been open about finding me sexually and mentally attractive. I feel the same about him but am generally very reticent about being open about my feelings for people, especially sexual ones.

It became obvious to me that I was witholding these feelings/thoughts and felt uncomfortable with portraying myself as a sexual/feminine being to him or expressing my wants/needs in that way.

This has been interesting to work on in the counselling sessions and is relevant to many of my issues. I have gradually begun to express this side of me more, though have felt vulnerable in doing so (and very, very worried about being seen as a "bunny boiler" type in consequence).

I have begun to do so, and also to realise that I often keep my body out of the sessions (by literally not mentioning it). The counsellor has commented in the past that my body language is held in, and aloof. We were talking about this last week and he suddenly asked me to stand up and made to hug me. I looked up at him, felt as if I wanted to kiss him, which he realised in shock and exclaimed. I kissed him on the lips but pulled back, we hugged and sat down.

He then said that he was shocked that the embrace had so quickly become sexualised and that it was a contrast to physical signals I'd given over previous months. He also said he'd felt "panicked". I, in contrast said I felt calm and detached. I actually felt pleased that he realised I was a sexual being and not as repressed as he thought. He also expressed fears (which he's mentioned before) that if we were to take the physical relationship further I might want to marry him..or that in order for people to see our relationship becoming sexual as genuine rather than exploitation on his part he would have to marry me.

Although I wouldn't usually identify myself as the maiden of 44, he seems to be reacting as if I am.

To be honest, from the maiden's point of view...that's empowering and liberating. I'm claiming a dormant part of myself. Our clumsy embrace felt like how Lise describes line 3 as lacking "decorum" but "healthy". And expressing my wants and needs in such an unaccustomed way "with all the forces one has" like in line 6, has made me realise how often previously I've shied away from asserting my physical, female being...almost as if I didn't exist in that way.

Reading Karen Horney's "Feminine Psychology" has helped me see some links to my childhood in which my mother denigrated my femininity in order to preserve her sense of her own.

Finally I asked "what if our therapeutic relationship became sexual?"
and got 28,2, 3 to 45.

A risky situation for both of us...but it feels like I need this lesson in forceful maidenhood...

[bradford_h]

Hi Wolverine-

There are REALLY REALLY good reasons why mixing therapy and reationships is considered unequivocally unprofessional and unethical. This is trouble. If you are in training to become a counselor, this is something you need to know right away. This can cost someone their license to practice. At the very least, the professional part of the relationship should be ended immediately.

b

[yellowknife]

I think for me ending the professional part would be more damaging than ending or neutralising the other part.

Also that in analytic model therapeutic relationships then absolutely they shouldn't be mixed.

But...in a humanistic therapy, then maybe, maybe a dual relationship might not always be against the therapeutic aims..if the therapeutic aims are about developing a real, human relationship.

Also counsellor/client sexual relationships are astonishingly prevalent. Agree that this doesn't make it right...but there are many indicators that existing ways of practice within therapy may commonly lead to this breaking of established rules- and it's not always about exploitation and skewed power relationships.

I'm interested in boundaries and their breaking- and it may come to me as a responsible decision to investigate their breaking in this instance.

Line 44,2 feels very, very relevant here.

[micheline]

Wolverine,
I agree with Brad and I am a little appalled at this man's behavior/words. He has violated the boundaries of a safely therapeutic relationship.

I don't believe you can separate your sexual self from the rest of you in a therapeutic relationship and you should not be expected to. That's why the boundaries need to be there, and they need to be established by the therapist. It isn't ethical for him to do otherwise.

YES, breaking boundaries can be a good thing..but in this case, is it self-defeating?
It is hard to know which doors are right doors if one has never known the right door to begin with. HOwever the wrong doors are those which will cause you to feel outcast all over again.
Estes: Women Who Run With the Wolves

If there is sexual trauma or wound in your past, this seems like a place where you can be re-traumatized.

where can it possibly take you?
not to learning about a "real human relationship" ...this man is already being sneaky and trying to devise ways to cover his butt.
I would run ike the wind.
Concerned for you! Micheline

[yellowknife]

I understand people will have concerns over this issue- and perhaps knowing that I shouldn't have posted here.

I did think it was relevant to 44 though and that there are relevant things to be said without hijacking the thread.

Thanks for your concern, but truly, truly I'm approaching this consciously. I have friends with other perspectives around me too, and won't be alone, nor, I believe re-wounded. Previous wounds in my life have more been about communication and repression and I feel the therapeutic space I'm in is safe.

[bradford_h]

Well, the subject was and is seduction.
As long as your mind's made up, good luck to you.

[bruce]

Wolverine, I think I can see your side here as well as Micheline?s and Brad?s. You are in it, while we can only look at it. Trying to place myself in your (or his) position, it would be better to employ a different therapist. That protects both of you and still would allow something personal to develop between you. Nothing wrong with falling in love with a therapist so long as he isn?t yours. Love is it?s own therapy. I have to say, though, the fact that he?s made his physical attraction known to you while engaged in professional therapy is not encouraging.

Good fathers teach their sons to think with their big head. I?m sure there?s a similar metaphor for women. Think, not just feel. That too is 44?s message.

[yellowknife]

I'll quote this from the Jungian therapist Marion Woodman (author of "The Pregnant Virgin" etc), because it's relevant to my situation and I think this discussion of 44;

"What the male analyst may fail to recognise in the psychology of the creative woman is the profound split between her imagination and her body...if passionate eroticism is not consciously discussed, the body is once again abandoned and the shadow will take it's revenge in physical symptoms. At the point of highest tension between analyst and analysand, one or the other may fall into unconsciousness and accuse the other of wanting "more and more and more" and both be saying "that's not true"...this is no time for ineffectual masculinity nor masochistic femininity, nor tyrannical father, nor positive mother, nor any musical chairs combination of the four. Both analyst and analysand must speak and both must be heard. The old map is useless in the new country ".

[bruce]

The woman needs no reason to pursue her desire; she has a will of her own. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[val]

Well now there's a predator for you if ever I saw one. Therapist seducing vulnerable female patients... they've got to be some of the easiest prey... next to children that is.

I wonder how many previous patients he's successfully seduced. I hope HE'S the one who gets burned by this dalliance... like losing his license and having his name put on the predators list so that his neighbors know as well that he's a sexual predator.

I wouldn't run like the wind though. I'd be the one to see to his fall. That should be easy enough... since what he's doing is a crime.

Love,

Val

[kevin]

I have been trying not to comment here.

I agree with a lot of what has been said.

As a therapist also trained in the Humanistic approach... I would hand my shingle in before going down that road.

I have spent hundreds of hours, alone and in supervision, untangling the emotions my patients engender in me. I need to be clear and untangled in order to help.

There are predatory therapists out there... they are sometimes skilled and sell a good line.

YOU CAN NOT HELP SOMEONE THERAPEUTICALLY IF YOU ARE INVOLVED - END OF STORY.

Indeed you are more likely to do harm with the confusion of the relationship and the power imbalance which most often plays in to both peoples pathology.

A few times I have turned such folk in - they always break down in tears and admit that they have betrayed a great trust.

--Kevin

[rosada]

In view of the fact that the therapist had intended only to hug Wolverine, and that it was Wolverine who turned the hug into a kiss, I feel we would be closer to the truth to describe the therapist as being an incredible dork, but not necessarily as being a sexual predator. I think it's important to understand this distinction, because if this is so, we wont find the solution looking at this as an example of predator/victim, but more likely the resolution is to view as an example of Unconscious Desires disrupting the Conscious Intention - which is exactly what 44 is all about. The empty space at the foundation of this hexagram warns us that something fundamental is missing. That Unconscious/Yin line in the first position says the Conscious Mind is totally oblivious to the root chakra/sexual aspect of the situation. So thus we have dorky therapist thinking, "Well I'll just give client a friendly hug," and KABOOM the unrecognized potential catches on fire!

So now that you know you have a therapist who isn't nearly as hep to your unconscious processes as you had assumed, what to do next? Well, 44 Temptation, is followed by 45 Gathering Together. which I interpret as meaning that once the Temptation is recognized, if it can not be stopped "with a brake of bronze" it should be brought into Group Consciousness, that is bring it out in public. In this case, "bringing it out in public" would probably require that you stop seeing him as a therapist but the you could start dating him as a man (In which case i would take back what I said about him being a dork!)

Please forgive me if I have phrased my ideas in a way that steps on toes. I know I sometimes get carried away with my opinions about the meaning of a line and forget there is a person with feelings behind the question. In this example I am just trying to analyize the meaning of 44 which I think is the hexagram that warns us when our own unconcsious desires are tempting us to tolerate a situation that we would not tolerate if we weren't ignoring things we don't want to see.

Rosada

[val]

Rosada...

You might want to read her first post about this relationship again because you've misread at least a couple of things.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

He's been open about finding me sexually and mentally attractive.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The counsellor has commented in the past that my body language is held in, and aloof. We were talking about this last week and he suddenly asked me to stand up and made to hug me. I looked up at him, felt as if I wanted to kiss him, which he realised in shock and exclaimed...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Like I said... a typical predator... and a very clever one.

I know what it's like to be a woman in denial too.

Love,

Val

[val]

Here's a sample of a woman in denial:

"My boss finds me attractive. He's just having marital problems. If he goes to a counsellor with his wife, he'll get his marriage back on trach. So...

why do I keep having this recurring dream that he's raping me?"

Here's a sample of a woman come out of denial:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Oh never mind... it's too painful to relive. And it's no surprise why I preferred denial to the pain of what was really going on.

Love,

Val

[rosada]

Val,

Major Oops! You're right. Guess I'm in denial too. Guess that's why 44 needs to be brought up to 45 - that is bring the situation to the group and then hopefully we'll get a 360 degree picture.

You sound like a survivor!
Rosada

[yellowknife]

I think I am in denial;

denial about the fact that what I posted was likely to lead to the subsequent interpretations, thus allowing me to project out some of my inner reservations on to forum posters here of whom I can then say "well, what do they know, they're just people in a forum who don't know the whole story".

I want to project out the part of me that could see a man as a sexual predator because, I suspect, unconsciously I see all men as sexual predators and feel myself being turned into an "object" when relationships become sexual. That's exactly why I want to explore these issues in a relationship with a level of communication that means that the man and I won't turn each other into "objects" rather than interacting subjects.

Re what I've already posted- the counsellor being open about finding me attractive is normal practice in this type of counselling. The relationship is the key to the therapeutic relationship. The existential therapist Irving Yalom for example is very open in his books about his approach to the world being fairly sexualised, and writes often of how sharing honestly his feelings for his patients is a positive practice, to model and to create a "real", non transference based relationship. I have a friend who's about to qualify as a clinical psychologist through the system in the UK and, in supervision, she was talked through her attraction to one of her patients and encouraged to be open about it with him.

Re, the hug. My therapist wasn't trying to paint it as a " spontaneous friendly hug". I was talking about my non acceptance of my body, and the absence of my body from my discourses. He was intending to see how I reacted to a full body hug, and to bring my absent body, literally into the conversation. He, obviously also laid us open to that becoming sexual, and I feel secure in the fact that in our next session I can bring up the fact that that risk was there and he seemed to be in denial about it. I expect he'll acknowledge that, and reflect further on what was happening for him and for me in the embrace and after. As two separate human beings, using dialogue, we'll work towards making our separate worlds and experiences enter into some common ground.

This process feels crucial for me, after a lifetime of skirting the dangers of people seeing each other as objects (a reason that a mechanistic or analytic model of therapy wouldn't work for me).

I refuse the labels of;

Vulnerable Female Patient (where's my responsibility and volition then?)

Victim

Unconscious Woman

Woman in Denial

and I'm not going to attach the labels to him of;

Rogue Therapist who Must be Stopped

Predatory Man

Sexual Predator who Must Fall

We're whole human beings, who might be engaged in some acting out (and then trying to recognise and discuss that), in expressing some of our personal pathologies involving risk and boundary breaking (something I recognised we share and a reason I chose him as my therapist after originally meeting him as a college tutor),in exploring the role that communication, intimacy, sex, the thrill of the new, the fear of the unknown, authentic bits of us, inauthentic bits of us play in relationship and in trying to recognise which is which. For me, it feels more safe (maybe too safe which is something I need to explore) to do this in the context of a therapeutic relationship.

For me, the point of my therapy (as decided by me) is not to fall into labels and objectifying. It's to develop as a responsible, feeling, aware human being. That may take me into a therapeutic relationship that becomes sexual. He and I may decide not to go there. Either way, I want to stay real throughout. 44 holds some warnings and I'm interested in thinking further on that.

[void]

Label of Dork then ? lol, sorry Rosadas post made me laugh. In my experience there are alot of 'dorks' out there calling themselves therapists or counsellors and what they pedal is fancy talk, yak yak yak about openess and acceptance, words, words, words, thats all it is, and you find in the end you know, basically they are 'dorks' who take your money and are probably more messed up than you are. I'm sorry to rant, but they sure can do some damage, not even by being predatory or evil just you know 'dorkish', irresponsible. (Disclaimer, some are very good, I'm sure, like Kevin, but they can be hard to find)

I don't see you as victim, you seem intelligent having lots of insight into the situation. You knew when you posted here you would as you say get other people to verbalise your own reservations. But you must know, as anyone with an ounce of common sense would, that if you wish to take it further as a sexual relationship you cannot do so within the therapeutic context. He would surely be breaching the code of ethics for practising counsellors etc. And you would of course I assume be paying him for the priviledge !

What would bother me is that even if you had a relationship outside the therapeutic relationship I would not trust him not to be forging other 'therapeutic' relationships with women who come to him. I guess he kills two birds with one stone, using his practise as a kind of dating agency and getting paid for it !!! Now I hear he used to be your tutor - oh Wolverine, does he offer all his female students private therapy, lol- its such a cliche.

As you pointed out though I don't think you would have posted here if you yourself did not have doubts. As discussed above 44 can hold more danger than may seem apparent in the situation. For you if you entered into sexual relationship in therapy there may be more emotional damage for you than you realise. If you are very young I would more seriously say steer clear.

[void]

BTW have you read 'The Female Malady' by Elaine Showalter.

[lightofdarkness]

44 in its EMOTIONAL context reflects anger/singlemindedness/devotion-to-self operating in a context of anticipation/cultivation.

The original 'anticipation' is of issues of WRONG-doing where that 'vibe' has been exploited to include anticipation of issues of RIGHT-doing and so of cultivation - thus the combination of a context of cultivation in which one is operating in a competitive, single-minded, manner.

Wind in LOWER = cultivation, anticipation
Wind in UPPER = becoming influencial

(and so the Wind hexagram reads "with/from cultivation one becomes influencial")

Heaven in LOWER = perseverence
Heaven in UPPER = singlemindedness

Heaven and Lake cover issues of REPLACING context with something considered 'better' - Heaven is more 'erradicating' (competitive and so seduction associated with conquest), Lake is more 'replicating' (mirror, copy, mimic and so the sexual factor as well as the 'showbiz' factor etc)

Wind is more the 'replacing end' of the set of trigrams/hexagrams that focus on SHARING context with others, having to coexist such that replacement is a 'no no' so the best is to avoid erradication by getting 'them' to come to your side, your perspective of what should happen etc.

The hexagrams of a Wind base are as close as one can get in the context of sharing space, coexisting, to replacement where the replacement is not 'immediate', it takes time since that is the only form of 'replacement' possible in the context favouring coexisting!

46, 18, 48, 57, 32, 50, 28, 44

IF we fold back the lines we get to a position of a lack in trust of others and a need for perpetual supervision etc - security seeking etc.

The eight hexagrams of the wind octet share their security seeking with the eight hexagrams of the water octet. The differences are in water is boundary-oriented, 'us vs them', issues of rejection/rejecting, immediate, there is no trust, period. Wind on the other hand is strongly TIME-sensitive such that there is ANTICIPATION of wrong-going and so the time factor.

BOTH rejection and anticipation-of-wrongdoing are REACTIVE and get exploited to become PROACTIVE in the form of being able to REJECT (rather than be concerned with being rejected) as well as being able to anticipate rightdoing etc.

A summary of the full spectrum of 44 is covered in the other recent thread on 44 (or at:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x111110.html )


Chris.

[kevin]

Sounds like you are 'eyes wide open'

Wishing you well

--K

[micheline]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

He also expressed fears (which he's mentioned before) that if we were to take the physical relationship further I might want to marry him..or that in order for people to see our relationship becoming sexual as genuine rather than exploitation on his part he would have to marry me. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> this is the part that is over the line, this is the part that shows who he is, and wolverine , you seem not to remember saying this.

Even if a man who was NOT my therapist said this to me, I wouldn't sleep with him. Its too insulting.
ETHICS ASIDE,
If you allow this relationship to become overtly sexual, and allow him to feel like you were the one who "needed it" and wanted it, it will be like trying to have sex in a laboratory in order to ascertain emotional results (and not feel like an object??)...like some kind of humanistic experiment...I personally think that such an experiment is doomed from the get-go , not possible at best.

[yellowknife]

Gosh, I'm at least eighteen years too old to be a Lolita, but I see what you mean.

Agree, re the danger of the "humanistic experiment". To call it that would be a denial and a distortion at best, but I can see myself falling into that trap in order to rationalise my feelings. I find the biggest safety feeling I've ever known in honesty and congruency though-even about the most uncomfortable things. He is painfully honest about his shadow side. Maybe seeing him grapple with it in this situation makes me feel even more safe. (and yes, he is grappling).

Him saying and thinking that about marriage is troubling me though, you're right to point it out. He's either projecting his own fears big time...or adding up things that I've said over a course of time and extrapolating that what I "really" want is a stable, committed relationship, not a temporary get together. He may be right, he may be wrong, I need to question myself and him.

Void; also on the Lolita theme (!) it wasn't quite the cliche of him as my college tutor. He tutored an adult education course in counselling-I was on one of the other modules, not one that he taught as it happens.

Thanks all for thoughts and feedback.

[val]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

He also expressed fears (which he's mentioned before) that if we were to take the physical relationship further I might want to marry him..or that in order for people to see our relationship becoming sexual as genuine rather than exploitation on his part he would have to marry me.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>This, I believe, is called priming the pump.


Love,

Val

[micheline]

Dear wolverine,
I deleted the lolita part ; )...28 is still very young, though! I send you a big hug and a wish that your spirit guides you wisely.
Micheline

[yellowknife]

Thanks Micheline.


"This, I believe, is called priming the pump"

Val- fortunate then that I'm a person and not a pump ;)

[peace]

I've not wanted to address this issue of Wolverine's - but I cannot help it so I'll answer with a question:

Wolverine -
What makes you feel flattered by this man?

What does putting yourself in this position do for you?

How does it relate to other issues for you with men?

That's all.

If I knew who this man was - I would report him to the authorities. He is the very type of therapist who gives all therapists a bad name - and many people I know who would go for treatment, know of predators like this one and the trust they have is already so fragile that it is criminal that they cannot find trust in the one place that should be safe (other than trust that was betrayed most likely in childhood).

Too bad "therapists" like this man are allowed to exploit their patients!!

[yellowknife]

Peace, to be honest, I'm inclined not to answer and ask that we get this thread back to 44 because I'm beginning to feel a bit...like I'm being asked to justify myself.

However, I started it, tis my fault.

So, to your questions;

i) I don't feel flattered by him. I like him, I believe his liking for me is based on genuine feeling. I'm not in love with him, he's not in love with me.

ii) Putting myself in this position means I can explore issues of intimacy, physicality, relating and my own reactions in an honest space. One in which, through the focus being on me, my issues and reactions, I can't hide in focusing on the Other and forgetting my Self. It also means that I satisfy some needs without the danger and uncertainty of a conventional romantic relationship. My therapist is guaranteed to see me once a week and talk to me about me and about him and me. My usual fear of rejection is thus both exposed, and minimised. Clearly this makes me feel safe but would be a very Bad Thing if I was then unable to transfer the insights gained into another relationship with a man. Currently I don't believe I'm ready or able to make space in my life for a full time committed relationship.

iii) I'm drawn to men with power. Personal power that is, not material. Thus indeed, what a cliche, I would feel attracted to my therapist.
I'm also drawn to honesty, having grown up in an environment containing lots of secrets and lies.
I've had, in the past, a long term live in relationship with a nice man who I found it hard to be emotionally intimate with. Learning to express my wants and needs is thus a big thing for me and feels like a big breakthrough with my therapist. I've also, previously, tended to split off my mind and my body, due to an unaccepting family environment. My relationships with men have thus either been bodily or mentally engaging, not both.
I like time alone very much and have a full life. Not currently conducive to exploring intimacy issues in a conventional relationship, though that's eventually my aim.


Sorry, don't feel like a victim, fragile or unsafe.

[bradford_h]

The "eyes wide open" concession - is that tough love? All I could manage to say was good luck.
It's like posing the question: What do you get when the man you love finally divorces his wife to marry you? You get a husband who cheats on his wife. You get love without honor, integrity or ethics. But that's enough for some.

[bruce]

Yeouch!

Wolverine, you certainly don't sound naive to me. Contrarily, you know exactly how this fits into your own needs and wants. You're no Lolita, for certain. (too bad; it's a great fantasy!)

I guess your tush is red by now from verbal spankings. No one can condone this because it is so far outside of what mores accept. So if you wanna play, just be willing to pay if you get caught. These admonitions you've gotten here will be child's play by comparison; to say nothing of this indiscriminant man's career and reputation. Easy to say no to temptation when it isn?t staring you in the face. Choose wisely is all I can say.

[yellowknife]

Actually, what you've just posted is relevant to what I just came back to the board to post.

I felt disingenuous for not having mentioned something relevant to the reason I came to onlineclarity in the first place. I came to post because of my relationship (not physical) with a man who was separated from his wife but still lived with her. Now they've split completely but he began a relationship with somebody else.

I wondered why I was so drawn to a physically and emotionally unavailable man. Why I gave my power away to him and stopped having a voice. Through the ongoing dialogue and reflection of the therapy process I realised that I'd grown up believing I didn't have a right to a voice (or even a body). The therapy process with a man who openly hears my voice and sees my body has helped me realise that it's only myself who can really allow myself to be. And I can't properly love or be loved until I (let myself) exist.

And in this thread I'll let myself exist.

I've tried for love without a voice, recipricocity, truth. Not enough for me.

[val]

Wolverine...

When you're through bludgeoning yourself by having lab rat sex with this man, why not get a REAL therapist... and with HER explore the very important questions Peace asked you.

What does putting yourself in this position do for you?

Which answer answers your question, "...why I was so drawn to a physically and emotionally unavailable man."

Being drawn to men who are unavailable is for the purpose of avoiding that ever so scary intimacy... just as having lab rat sex is.

Love,

Val

[val]

So striking were the harmful consequences associated with therapist-patient sex that Masters and Johnson wrote: "We feel that when sexual seduction of patients can be firmly established by due legal process, regardless of whether the seduction was initiated by the patient or the therapist, the therapist should be sued for rape rather than malpractice, i.e., the legal process should be criminal rather than civil."

http://kspope.com/sexiss/sexencyc.php

[yellowknife]

Val, thanks for the web link, I've been looking for similar. Food for thought, though my interest in the sociology of scientific knowledge means I'm also wary of the often socially proscribed content of research and suspect there's a more diffuse picture available than is presented here. Clearly though patient/health professional abuse is a problem and should be regulated against.

Yes, obviously I fear intimacy. In two years including counselling skills training, being part of a personal development group and individual counselling sessions I've worked on why and, most importantly, how. It's helped me develop more reciprocal, closer friendships and better relationships with family members. I've very recently reached the point where, despite the renewed approaches of the (unavailable) man I was in love with, I've walked away because I felt he wouldn't be willing to sustain a truly intimate relationship.

However, part of my work to change myself lies in accepting my own fear of intimacy. Accepting that sometimes I feel able to be closer to people when they're at something of a distance.

I don't want to endlessly defer intimacy though, seeing it as some far off, nirvana point I may one day magically attain.
It's hard and gradual.

I'm making steps, not as a lab rat, but in a real relationship with a real person with real feelings.

[peace]

It's taken me awhile to get through the threads of the past few days since I was away - but these are so good.

For me, 44 has always been difficult because I believe the hexagram speaks to my own seductiveness/addictions and that of seeing the reality I don't want to see about other people - because I don't want to see the truth.

I find it a very soul-searching hexagram. I'm glad I don't get it too often because it bothers me alot when I do.

I really liked Rosada's interpretation about intrusion.
I find that when something - a thought which is almost always bound with my ego, enters my mind, the more I entertain it, the more it grows.

Looking upon it as an intrusion really helps to understand how it can permeate my thinking and then effects what I do.

Also - a few people mentioned some of the feminine psychologists - like Marion Woodman.

Some of our "dreams" are like the demon lovers she mentions. They are the ones that beckon us away from life and to them - much like the narcissitic fathers she talks about - who want to "own" their daughters for the purpose of making themselves whole. These daughters are "brainwashed" to believing the reality their fathers tell them - which really allow the fathers to see a reflection of their own reality through their daughter's eyes.

As a result, the daughter is pulled away from her own life and seduced by this "demon lover".

As Rosada talked about how one can view dreams, I recall several instances when I have laughed at some dreams - knowing that they were seductions from my current life - and if I focused on them, many days could go by and I would believe they were important so I wouldn't have to deal with what I didn't want to deal with in my current life.

As some of you also said - hexagrams can be interpreted on more than one level.
Yes, dreams are important and have very important elements. However, they are also seductive.
As the I Ching says - it's all about balance.

I could go on and on but won't.

Thanks for all the sharing on this thread. It gives me alot to think about.

Rosalie

[rosada]

"I could go on and on but I wont."

Yeah, Rosalie, this thread itself is pretty seductive!

Roz

[peace]

Touche~
Rosalie

[val]

Hi Peace...

Wow... that was a great post. Very insightful. I have a gazillion questions you can probably answer since you are so very insightful.

What do you suppose it means when similar events... really extraordinary similar events that seem to support dreams happen... such as a psychic approaching you out of the blue (and then another psychic) and impeccably describing people in your life and retelling events in the dream but with more detail?

Next question... what is your analysis of things... events happening in real life that happened previously in dreams...such as flying Virgin Atlantic Airways... and the monitor on the back of the seat in front of you malfunctions exactly like it did in the dream... right after most of everything else in the dream had already come true... (and your legs are already shaking while you walk onto the plane because most of a dream has already come true, and it's not something that happens all that often in your life... hello?). [Note: Virgin wasn't even a glimmer in Richard Branson's eye yet when the dream happened.]

And one last question, what do you think about people leaving out or ignoring facts and details to make their point. Do think in that case their point is valid?

Thanks for all your help on this Peace. I really appreciate it.

Peace, love and understanding,

Val

[peace]

Hi Val:

I don't know!!!

I do believe in psychic energy.
I believe everything you wrote throughout this thread - and other things I've read that you said were dreams that happened.

It's enough to give you goosebumps and more....

That being said..For awhile I was working on developing my abilities as I know I'm intuitive - but it started to scare me - and pull me out of my life.

I went to New Mexico a few times and then did a 180 and took a corporate job on Wall Street because what I got (maybe psychically) was that I was here on earth to learn to deal with day to day ordinary life. And...I truly believe in the "demon lover" - both as a seduction and real men. In fact, I've manifested many of them in the flesh!

I'm telling you all this because my experience may help you answer your questions - because I sure don't have any answers.

I found, over time with this stuff that I started to see myself as becoming grandiose - that I had information from the universe. That fit too snuggly into my psychological issues. First, it made me feel special - which is bad for me.
Then, it put me in a realm of the "magical thinking, demon lover" mode - and that pulls me away from my life - and that is very bad for me.

I personally, need to learn to deal better with reality and real people. I check out all my "intuitive" knowledge before I act on big things with someone I trust and I'm learning to trust my "here and now" senses and my judgement based on what I see.

The I Ching has become more validation for me (most of the time) and that is a good thing for me when I get overwhelmed. It brings me back to earth. But....I have to really be careful of the psychic stuff.

And...for you, it may not be the same. I don't know what you do in life or what your purpose is -so I think it's different for everyone.

If I tell you to walk through a wall - you won't be able to do it, right? You'll bang your head.
That's truth and that's real. We create our own reality only through our interpretation of real things - the same real things as everyone else.

What I will say though - the question you asked about people making their points and leaving out information - that I believe is manipulation and lies. A fact is a fact.
And, Val, maybe I'm not sure what you're asking about people leaving things out.

--------------
Rosalie

[val]

Hi wolverine...

I feel so stupid! I didn't know until today that a wolverine is a weasel. And that discovery was right after I was connecting 35.4 to what you're doing to yourself and why I recognize it.

At any rate, below is an article I think you might find interesting... hopefully helpful. I looked it up after seeing some very beautifully worded (you are a very good writer indeed) yet obviously self-deceptive stuff you've posted (I see through the form to the content). http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/vanderkolk/. I believe what you're doing is revictimizing yourself and terribly self-destructive, therefore I think those two sections of the article will probably be of particular interest.

There's a couple of reasons I went looking for an article about repeating trauma and self-destruction. The first one, and you'll remember I was concerned when you first came to the forum wanting so desperately for the Yi to tell you that you had a future with this married man... to the point you wanted 23.6 to mean the relationship with him was going to blossom) is that you described not only a married man but a terribly destructive man. I suspected you were more naive than anything else then. Now I know I was wrong.

You came back with this story... you're here very self-destructively screaming "I want to be raped" because that's exactly what this kind of sexual encounter IS. It is sexual exploitation and nothing more and nothing less. And sexual exploitation IS rape! I don't believe your eyes are wide open at all. I believe the part of you that wants to be self-destructive is keeping mule blinders on the part of you that could protect yourself.

Further, just about everything you said to Peace was self-deceptive (mule blinders in place), but I just want to point out the two on which I based my decision to go looking for an article about compulsively repeating trauma.

I'm drawn to men with power. THIS MAN IS A WIMP! He has no personal power whatsoever... he's a predator. Predators are wimps. They prey on weak and vulnerable people. People in therapy are there because they feel weak and vulnerable (whether they admit it or not). And some part of you knows this, but doesn't want the rest of you to because that part wants to repeat the pattern... do you think repeating it may get you that approval you feel you never got?

I'm also drawn to honesty, having grown up in an environment containing lots of secrets and lies. Everything you've said about this man's approach smacks of dishonesty. A more honest statement would be "I'm drawn to his dishonesty to repeat the pattern of dishonesty I grew up with."

The thing about the one who exposes you in 35.4... in most cases that person can see through you because of the "takes one to know one" syndrome. You may fool everyone else here. You may food yourself. You don't fool me. Having been sexually exploited, I have a pretty good idea of how devastating the damage is going to be for you. And the pain of being sexually exploited... it's indescribable. I thought it was going to kill me. I wanted to kill myself sometimes to escape the horrid feelings I felt. I have NO idea why I care, but I hate to see you hurt, and if you don't get a grip now, you're going to be terribly hurt.

Love,

Val

[kevin]

Val

Absolutely.

For me it does not matter that it is with a strong woman who is seeking development for training.

It destroys the therapeutic relationship completely.

To me it indicates that this person is confused enough to betray his committment as a therapist and may well do so again with a more vulnerable patient.

In addition I wonder whether one can expect an authentic relationship from someone who begins it by betraying a trust.

--Kevin

[val]

Kevin...

HELP! I'm in tears right now because I know what she doesn't know yet... and I never want her or ANY woman for the rest of time to learn it the way I did. I've pretty much accepted I'm going to have these scars for life. I was reminded that I can't even sit in a dentist chair without crying in profound senseless fear while I was typing that last post when my dentist office called to confirm my teeth cleaning appointment Monday morning. (You as a psych can explain to those who don't know about sexual exploitation and dental phobia.)

YES YES YES This is SUCH a betrayal of trust.... and betrayal of trust is so very painful.

The pity is he knows... she doesn't. And she's the one who is going to suffer for it.

You know I thought of you a lot when I thought of posting what I really feel is going on here. I thought about emailing you because I'm not a psychologist. I know from experience (and I DO learn from experience), not clinical study. And I was afraid of how I would come across because, as we all know, I AM more direct than most people. So I consulted the Yi. They answered 46.2. So I just did it.

This whole self-destructive act is so disturbing to witness, that I really feel like withdrawing from this forum forever. She's not the first "woman in the danger zone" to post here... she probably won't be the last. It's very difficult to stand by helplessly and watch.

Love,

Val

[val]

Kevin...

One more thing. I don't see her as strong at all. I see her as a very frightened vulnerable little child in there wanting to appear strong (as her best defense)... and very stubbornly clinging to denial (again an important defense). And, of course, you know as well as I that denial is an experiential thing, not intellectual. She doesn't know that... she will if she ever comes out of it... OUCH!

When my boss was finessing me, I stubbornly clung to denial... I believed his crap... I thought he was attracted to me... I HAD to believe that for survival. And then I went through five months of horrible PTSD before I finally said OUCH... and it was an OUCH I was sure could be heard for miles and miles.

Love,

Val

[val]

I just thought of something to add to that last post Kevin.

Men used to describe me as a strong woman. Some said they were frightened by my strength. It was all an illusion I did with mirrors. After I went through my catharsis in Virginia, I consulted the Yi about how I was feeling about things... about men and my relationship to them. And I got the line that said "You can give up your belligerent way of acting now." I sighed contently. I hadn't been strong at all... and the difference was huge.

Love,

Val

[kevin]

Hi Val

I cannot describe the anger I feel toward therapists who betray their trust. People who abuse their power... predators who are mmost often confused and damaged.

I read your posts and was tearfull too.

I have been in the postition of trying to help betrayed analysands / patients... The betrayal is beyond description. The surprised pain the other experiences... lost for words here.

If someone says they are strong... Who am I to say otherwise...

Hugs Val

Kevin

[yellowknife]

Val-

I feel torn here. I'm sorry that you are upset and that you're feeling helpless and considering leaving the forum.

I'm feeling slightly cross that I'm feeling sorry for you about this.

I feel grateful and touched that you care enough to be looking into this and to have found another interesting, helpful, thought provoking article.

I feel really strongly that you're getting into some intensive projection identification...

I am not you.
The therapist is not anyone you have known.
I am not being abused, harassed or traumatised.

My past self destructive relationship with the poet does indeed sound like there was compulsive trauma repetition going on. The article is revealing about this. I often wonder and try unravel my emotional states...especially my tendency to cut off...

Interestingly, last night I dreamed that Seeker (whose posts I often identify with) posted a long post saying that really I was a frightened child...she quoted various journal and scientific references. One was a quote asking "what are people for?" and she said I was interested in post modern theory. In the dream I experienced her post as a sort of defence and understanding of me that I was grateful for.

Regarding the therapeutic relationship; question about it what you will...a key, salving thing for me is his honesty (compulsive honesty). I can't get into a back and forth "yes he is", "no he isn't with you" on that. I know, you know that when your life has made it really, really important to spot honesty, lying and self deception, you do.

Sorry, maybe I can't convince you of this. My coping mechanisms are good...and have led me to this particular therapeutic relationship. This quote's from the article you linked to;

"Prior to unearthing the traumatic roots of current behavior, people need to gain reasonable control over the longstanding secondary defenses that were originally elaborated to defend against being overwhelmed by traumatic material such as alcohol and drug abuse and violence against self or others. The trauma can only be worked through after a secure bond is established with another person. The presence of an attachment figure provides people with the security necessary to explore their life experiences and to interrupt the inner or social isolation that keeps people stuck in repetitive patterns. Both the etiology and the cure of trauma-related psychological disturbance depend fundamentally on security of interpersonal attachments. Once the traumatic experiences have been located in time and place, a person can start making distinctions between current life stresses and past trauma and decrease the impact of the trauma on present experience."


Val- I think I needed to have you say what you've said about my self deception and I thank you....but you're talking about "witnessing", "watching" and "seeing" my self destruction happen.

But you're not. The sight words are clues.

Whatever you're "picturing", it's your stuff...not mine.

[jesed]

Wolverine and Val:

Just in case the commentarie could be useful

"I will hear everything you will say to me.
I will judge wathever I heard, but I won't judge you.
Everything I find truth from you, I will keep it as tourch to inlight my Way
Everything I don't complete understand from you, I will keep it as a challenge to inlight my Way
Everything I find untruth from you, I will keep it to review the light of my Way.
...
And anyway, I will bless you will be here to speak to me"

Best wishes

[heylise]

Wolverine, I admire you. Your patience, politeness, style... I would have exploded already many posts ago.
I know what you are seeking, because I am seeking the same thing. Finding your own footing. There are probably many ways to find it, but talking about emotions, real emotions, with a man, is a kind of highway. Not abstract emotions, but strong and living ones, here and now.
All depends on the trustworthiness of the man. If you can really trust him, then the common rules do not apply anymore. Trustworthiness overrules everything else.
Of course you have to ask yourself over and over again, if you are not deceiving yourself. Or letting yourself be deceived. But you are the only one who can judge.

LiSe

[peace]

Hi Val:

I think that Bruce's post a few days back are the wisest because it challenges Wolverine's position in a dignified and respectful way. She is a grownup. She is intelligent - and she is not, as she says, "a Lolita".

It's her life and I admire how much you want her to be spared the pain you were. Hopefully, most of your pain is in the past - and you don't have to relive it now if you don't want or need to - for anyone's benefit. Please take care of yourself.

And I agree...you don't know what you don't know. And if she's in denial, she doesn't know.

As a psychologist I feel I have a responsibilty to do something about therapists who are predators.
How dare he try to work it out with her - whatever his issues are. He should at very least be in supervision. He has no right to discuss his feelings about her if he is out of control - which he definitely is - according to Wolverine's accounting of the incident.

We all have our karma and sometimes a shock has to be being hit over the head with a boulder.

Wolverine - I wish you well. You are entitled to have the space you need to work out whatever you need to do.
This is a request: If you don't want our advice, please don't drag us into it. I feel setup and manipulated into taking you seriously. All your responses are that we don't understand and he's this and that....It's not helpful to you or us. You're no victim because I believe you know what you're doing with him and with us!

Rosalie

[pakua]

People should go back and read Wolverine's first post:

"I'll share this because I think it's a relevant side of 44, though I feel slightly vulnerable in sharing;"



Val, I think if someone is operating unconsciously, yes there will be
problems, but it seems as if Wolverine is aware of her self and what she's doing. And her answer 28.2.3 for the question "what if our therapeutic relationship became sexual?" also seems clear.


For every quote that someone brought up that *seems*, according to everyone's experience of the world, to indicate the guy is manipulating, Wolverine had more background and an explanation which seems to show our assessment was incorrect, and it didn't sound to me as if her thought process was deluded.

Does everyone have to follow the "rules" 100 per cent? Can there not be honest folk out there who don't follow the traditional rules?

Wolverine seems to have thought a lot about what she's saying. Why don't we give her some credit that she knows what she's trying to do, or at least thinks she knows (after all, who knows what they're really doing - most of us don't). Life has risks everywhere.

If her perception of him and everything else she's saying is accurate, if there's an honest exchange, isn't that up to her? A role is just a role, therapist and client, teacher and student, master and slave... they all intermingle eventually.

I think the key is honest exchange.

Wolverine, I admire your openess and honesty in sharing all this. But like LiSe says, it would be wise to keep checking for deception.

[val]

Hi Wolverine...

Peace said:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I feel setup and manipulated into taking you seriously.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I've been pondering that very same possibility. I realize there is the possibility that something other than a disconnection with reality is happening here. I can't imagine that even the most irrational person can continue to argue the logic of a psychological determination made by oodles of oodles of very experienced mental health professionals over many years.

You either have a such a strong need to be right that you will ignore the obvious dangers in order to maintain your position as right.

"Wolverine... there's a mac truck headed for the rock on which you're posturing at 70 mph."

"Even though I'm very very young, I'm here on this rock to impress you with how much smarter I am than all the people with many more years experience than I by using psychological jarg..."

SPLAT

Things you say also point to the possibility you might be insecure about your attractiveness. For one... "My mother denigrated my femininity in order to preserve her sense of her own." Did your mother get more attention than you Wolverine? Maybe these men are real but you've imagined their approaches to you? Maybe you've come onto them and they've rejected you but said enough positive and validating for you to build into evidence of their sexual attraction toward you?

Or maybe it's just a plain ol' narcissistic need for attention and you are simply enjoying manipulating people's feelings and watching their reactions to your "guaranteed 9.8 on the shock scale" statements and lapping up the attention.

I've considered all those possibilities... because something is just not right here, and I could have shut up before. But there's definitely a deception going on here, and it's impossible for me to know for sure if it's self-deception or deception of "all those people out there in forumland who will never know the truth." In spite of the overwhelming circumstantial evidence, it's still possible you are so irrational that you can't see the logic behind "An increasing number of states have criminalized therapist-client sex, some classifying it as a felony" and are, consequently, about to walk off the edge of the cliff.

So I had to try. And I did try. And now I'm done. I have no interest in reading anything else you have to say in this thread, and it appears the previous conversation is long over, so I have no fears of missing anything important here. Consequently, I've added a filter to my email to delete any emails with the title of this thread in the subject line.

Peace...

I'm very excited to resume our discussion about dreams. I'm starting another thread to do so in a day or two or three. In the meantime, I won't be able to read any responses in this thread, so if you have anything to add regarding dreams in the meantime, please post to the thread I started on 44 a few days ago.

Thanks.

Love,

Val

[yellowknife]

Jesed; wise words.
Lise; Thank you so much for hearing me. I felt like I needed that.

Thanks to all who've rightly warned me to be careful and keep checking that the situation's ok and real.

Re Val's last post;

My self/way of expressing myself/current situation seems to have upset, angered and frustrated her. She's rapidly moved through a spectrum of objectifying me, attacking my integrity, to some extent blaming me for raising upsetting issues for her and finally rejecting whatever I may have to say in future.

That sort of interaction, if replicated in a therapeutic or other real world relationship would be far more damaging to me than the interaction I have with a man who owns his own stuff, when challenged or spontaneously, sees me as a person with my own world and frame of reference and is offering me an open, safe space that will stay there even if things get hard and challenging.

The Clarity forums themselves offer that sort of space and for that I'm glad. This thread is, continues to be, very, very 44 I think.

What Val partly might have felt is missing is the "exploding" that Lise said she would have done posts ago. Words and ideas and setting them down can be a defence against that for me. In fact, they can be seductive and persuasive and a way that I seduce and persuade in turn. That's pleasurable and interesting...but does have the danger of me endlessly deferring real feelings, be they anger or love or whatever.

I'll sit with that over the weekend.

Blessings to all.

[yellowknife]

In some ways it would be easier not to resurrect this thread. But I have a strong drive towards narrative closure, so I'm going to update it and round it off.

Myself and my therapist continued to sometimes draw towards and draw away from discussions of our feelings of attraction towards each other for a few more months.

That helped me explore how I've related to people generally physically and mentally and realised that physical interaction is particularly charged for me because I've not developed ways of processing it and dealing with the feelings it arouses in the same way I've been able to with mental and verbal interaction.

I managed to dance a slow dance with someone at an event recently which might not sound a big deal for anyone else- but it was for me and I felt like I knew alot more about my own reactions and accepted them.

Having some reciprocal time with my therapist outside of sessions (just meals afterwards sometimes) helped me question how willing I was to consider an unreciprocal sexual relationship with an unequal power balance just because of the security it would offer me. I also began to feel more "present" and more willing to both "see" and "be seen" in my interactions with friends. I began to realise more what being fully present meant.

This somehow seems to have helped in an empowering process in which I told a man (who I've posted about on here a couple of years ago), when he made approaches towards me again that he was narcissistic and selfish and incapable of really seeing me as the person I am.

That then seemed inevitably to lead to me recognising that my best future learning and growing will come in reciprocal relationships where I share experiences and insights and souls with people on an equal footing- and risk myself in doing so. I therefore recently told my therapist that I wanted to have three more sessions with him, then bring our time to an end.

We've both expressed how we're glad we didn't sleep together but that the (real) possibility functioned as a useful catalyst for me to explore why I would have done- and for him to be challenged in how "real" he was willing to be about his feelings toward a client.

I also found this thread useful- in terms of exploring my fears. Then also in standing my ground and staying true to myself even when my integrity was being severely questioned and challenged.

I appreciate that most people wouldn't have had to go through the pocess of considering sleeping with their therapist in order to know it probably wasn't a good idea- but I've learned so much in the process and it feels like I needed to go through it to emerge more strongly aware of my needs and wants.

Just wanted to share.

Blessings

Wolverine

[micheline]

Dear Wolverine,
I am so happy you shared all this. I honor your process. and especially love how you describe knowing what it meant to be more fully present. That I believe is a rare jewel.

I wonder do you mean that your integrity was being questioned here on this discussion board? I never felt that your integrity was questioned or "under fire".....It seemed to me that the integrity of the therapist was being questioned. But that seems water under the bridge now. As a therapeutic process, even one that may have been questionable, it seems to have brought you safely to a shore of new strength and awareness.

I admire your courage and openness in laying it all out here, and how you unflinchingly held your ground, as you say. You have a lot of strength and so much to give.
I wish you the very best.

Micheline

[bradford_h]

Wolverine-
Thanks for the update.
And glad you got through it all.
This updating doesn't happen often enough,
but it's important to the learning process,
and we're all still spozed to be learning here.

[frodo]

If you read the first post in this achive:
Archive through November 10, 2005
"How to understand the changing lines in hex. 44" - which talks about the 2. and 4. line in 44,
I did a cast today.... and got exactly that cast!
44,2,4 > 53.

In the thread most agreed that 44 was about sexual incounter. And that line 2 and 4 ("fish in the tank") could speak about fertility or if such an encounter was of any value.

The question I asked was:
"How shall I convince my friend that he should not get involved with that woman"

I admit that it was a prejudging question, but the situation is that my very good friend have met a young Thaigirl on his travel and have decided to marry her! Even though he have never spoken to her, as she only talk thai.
To me it is like "buying" a wife. Its not so much a moral issue for me, as I am sure that he would take very good care of her - AND her whole family, as the deal includes that he is going to finance their lives too.
Its more that I think he is spellbound and heading in a wrong direction, where he will wake up all to late, when he finds out that a young girl of course is not interested in an old man like him, - but his money.

So how should I talk to my friend? Tell him that this has been an inspiring encounter (he has only "talked" with her) and that he should leave it like that (line 2: "Fish in the tank. It does not further to entertain guests"). But that if he continues he will find that there is "no fish in the tank. This gives rise to misfortune" (line 4).

P.S.
The day before I DID ask a more global question, I asked Yi what it had to say about his project, and it said: Hex.5 (1,3,5) > 7
( - but I did not like the answer, as it seem to support his project to some degree...)

[jesed]

Hi

First: about the project, is premature; the best thing to do is wait in calm, and with discipline (hex 7)

Second: the way I read it: Is not about no getting involved with her, but getting involved in a RIGHT way (evolving from 44 to 53)

Both 44 and 53 are about relationship.. 44 is a wrong relationhip and 53 is a good one. The diference? 44 is premature, 53 evolve rightly step by step.

So, I would say to him: "I'm not telling you to break up with her; just telling you to built a solid relationship; without precipitation, but evolving step by step."

Best wishes

[bruce]

Nice interpretation, Jesed. Though I have a little different view of 44/right and wrong, as well as the value of fish in the tank.

Frodo, your question: "How shall I convince my friend that he should not get involved with that woman?" is presumptuous, and that also is the nature of 44. A more fitting question might be "What is the best way to approach my friend's interest in this arrangement?" It is possible that the best way is to mind your own business. Then, maybe the best way would be to take him by his collar and shake sense into him. Or perhaps the best way is to sit down with him and encourage him to talk it out with you. But to ask the Yi ?how shall I convince him?? is to presume Yi agrees with your personal attachments.

[bruce]

Fwiw, I did a little online surfing on success ratios of these sort of arrangements, and it seems that they succeed about 80% of the time, long term. That's not only higher than 'common' courtship marriages, but higher than religious groups, even devout Catholic marriages.

Older man/young woman/self-arranged marriages are foreign and seamy concepts to our culture; and yet the success rate of our own marriages fail far more often.

I dunno, but I think if two people make each other happy, there's no other reason or rationale needed.

[jerryd]

Wolverine...you rationalization and its explaination are very well put. I personally understand your feeling of being put under scruteny, I accept people and their ability to make assumptions and draw conclusions from presented information. People do those things. How it effects me is on me and I have to deal with it. I was involved with a woman who actually had been in your circumstance, she was not as fortunate, her therapist; a male responded and took an unfair advantage. All the Hex 44's in the world would not have prevented it.
Best wishes for a holesome and active future.

[jte]

"Older man/young woman/self-arranged marriages are foreign and seamy concepts to our culture; and yet the success rate of our own marriages fail far more often. "

Shades of 28.2...

- Jeff

[frodo]

Hello everybody.
Late reply from me, Im sorry. I read your replies as they came, but havent taken me time before now to answer. Your answers help me to see the situation from different views.
First: I agree totally with you that I presume, Bruce. I usually dont ask questions in this manner. But the day I asked the question, I felt that rephraming the question not being so presumptuous, would be like bending my mind to be "correct". So I thought, what the heck, lets see what comes. And I think that this my honest question gave me the opportunity to get some feedback on my attitude, at least from this forum. Helps me to think of his project from a less presumptuous angle.

I can feel this is true, Jessed: So, I would say to him: "I'm not telling you to break up with her; just telling you to built a solid relationship; without precipitation, but evolving step by step."

Interesting, Bruce, that these marriages has twice as much change to survive than "normal" marriage in the western world (But isnt that because the girl is totally caught in the marriage for economic reasons, her family?s survival depend on her staying with him)

And yes, Jte, 28.2 would be the picture of a good outcome for him.
I hope for this - OR that he will have patience and maybe see that he need someone whith whome he can share his thoughts on a deeper level than a not english speaking young woman.

Bruce: I tried to ask the question you suggested:
"What is the best way to approach my friend's interest in this arrangement?"
I got #49 (no changing lines). (strange... often I know while throwing that this one will be not changing)
I could see it as me having to renew myself, be open to something that I cant in this "skin" that I have to shed.
But how can I know if it is not telling me to transform HIS attitude? #49 is the only hex. that tell us to do something drastic, maybe
"take him by his collar and shake sense into him".

[jesed]

Hi Ftodo

Change YOUR own point of view about the issue, yopur own way to aproach the issue.

(Hard thing to do, isn't?)

Best wishes

[frodo]

Well, Jessed, here I think you expressed yourself with much certainty. It actually blocked me from responding for a while. How can you be so sure. I "feel" though that your interpretation is tending towards the right one. But that comes from knowing me, knowing him.
Looking at the hex.49 itself, it doesnt tell were the "revolution" should take place: in me or towards him. The core hex. of #49 is #44 (the hidden posibility). To go from 49 to 44 line 1,2 and 6 have to change. Line 1 talkes about restraining oneself in the beginning. But line 2 says: "when one?s own day comes, one might create revolution. Starting brings good fortune. No blame,"

A little update: He seems to have come down from his "manic" state, so that I can trust that he does his own conciderations now - which leaves me free from being his assistant critical sense. ;-)