Line 6: high point or endgame?

[dobro]

Line 6 in a lot of hexagrams falls into one of two categories often: high point or endgame. High point refers to the situation imaged in the hexagram at its high point - it's the completion or perfection or peak of the main idea in the hexagram. Endgame refers to those Line 6's which image a fading, or transforming, or departure point of the situation from the main idea of the hexagram. Usually the high point line 6's are in the nature of 'congratulations', and the endgame line 6's are in the nature of a warning or heads up. But sometimes it's different.

11.6 is an example of endgame: the lovely energy pervading the situation is reaching an end, and so 11.6 is a 'warning' line.

14.6 is an example of high point: the 'big having' of the whole hexagram has reached the heaven realm here, and life is blessed.

18.6 is an example of endgame which happens to be auspicious. This one's really interesting to me. The main idea of 18 for me is that decay and disorder are revealed, but that this is an auspicious or positive thing, and many of the individual lines echo that overall positive outlook. So you would expect an endgame line 6 to be negative in some way. But 18.6 has a golden outlook it seems to me, even though there's no overt valuation attached to the line.

Your turn.

[magictortoise]

18(6) has puzzled me also. I have tried to understand it this way: Since line six is archetypically the line of the sage who stands outside the affairs of the world(lines 2-5) then perhaps in 18 it means that for the sage his 'work' is done.It also could mean, as stated in the Wilhelm commentary on p. 481, that the work of the sage is not limited to one era, but for all time.

Ken

[hilary]

I'll play. 30.6 - a high point and departure point? We've honoured the presence of confusing signs, recognised the glow of inner light, chosen our perspective on transience, seen with compassion... and now the king's making good use of marching out, executing the chief and not the prisoners. It seems clarity of perception naturally tips over into action in the end. Or perhaps if you spread light far enough, sooner or later you have to engage with darkness.

I'd think of 18.6 as a turnaround, too. You've spent 5 lines taking responsibility for corruption and working within relationships (with the living or the dead) to restore harmony. At the 6th, I think you're told to change focus.

[dobro]

I'll play. 30.6 - a high point and departure point? We've honoured the presence of confusing signs, recognised the glow of inner light, chosen our perspective on transience, seen with compassion... and now the king's making good use of marching out, executing the chief and not the prisoners. It seems clarity of perception naturally tips over into action in the end. Or perhaps if you spread light far enough, sooner or later you have to engage with darkness.

Busting your enemies by picking off the leader and pardoning the followers isn't darkness, not if you're a king; it's radiant. 30.6 is a high point, I think.

[trojan]

I think 13.6 is odd as an endpoint, a luke warm end to fellowship. After all the emotion in line line 5 theres simply meeting those in the outskirts - and the advise seems to be to expect no in depth connection with others here - just hang out with them, seems kinda empty, perhaps i read it wrong - perhaps its meant to be a celebration - anyway as an end line I feel its a bit of a damp squid, lol

[hilary]

Aren't squid usually quite damp?
:rofl:

30.6 - yes, the king's light, the chief who needs executing is presumably dark. You could actually see the lines as getting closer and closer to darkness as we move up the hexagram.

13.6 - this is pure guesswork, but looking at the previous lines we seem to have got dangerously close to an outbreak of war. The outskirts altar was a place for victory offerings, and I wonder (based on no evidence at all) whether it might not also be a good place to solemnise alliances, outside the boundaries of your town. There's enough space out here for both of us. 'No regrets' - maybe quite a lot of relief?

[rosada]

The memorizing treads hold some interesting observations about line 6.

[trojan]

Aren't squid usually quite damp?
:rofl:

13.6 - this is pure guesswork, but looking at the previous lines we seem to have got dangerously close to an outbreak of war. The outskirts altar was a place for victory offerings, and I wonder (based on no evidence at all) whether it might not also be a good place to solemnise alliances, outside the boundaries of your town. There's enough space out here for both of us. 'No regrets' - maybe quite a lot of relief?

:rofl: damp squib then - mm interesting take on 13.6 hadn't thought of it like that though it seemed to me the people in the lines 3 and 4 never got anywhere near actual fighting, just hiding in bushes and riding on ramparts, i thought their actions were mainly defensive rather than aggressive - still a firework party on the outskirts could ease relations - as long as it doesn't rain

[dobro]

13 is a bit weird generally. The hexagram's about fellowship, and yet all the individual lines are about pre-fellowship, problematic fellowship, or post-fellowship. I see 13.6 as the sequential echo of 13.1 - 13.1's about the time before full fellowship obtains, and 13.6 is about the time when fellowship's starting to wane - endgame, definitely.

You know, the only really positive picture in 13 is the main text. The hexagram presents a rather dim view of fellowship overall, don't you think? lol So were the sages pessimistic, or were they saying: "Fellowship's great; but any variation on fellowship is necessarily problematic."

[heylise]

To me lines don't have any sequence (just my view). They talk about different realms. Line 6 is the line of the sage, outside ties and other human affairs. For the sage (or the top line), 13 has a lot to do with accepting everyone as he/she happens to be. Even when they are way below his level, or with totally different ideas or whatever. I agree with Hilary: "There's enough space out here for both of us". So it can be lukewarm, or even negative, not accepting others, or it can be bigger or wider love than all the other lines. 'IF' you make that union in the meadow, then there is no regret. But if not, well then you get that regret.

There is a big difference with line 3, the one of the heart, the one most of all lines emotionally involved. That one gets totally upset about 'them', filled to the brim with emotions.

Same with all top lines. They all include the good sides of not being committed, and the bad sides.

LiSe

[dobro]

Isn't there a difference between 'not being committed' and the transcendence and non-attachment of the sage? Not being committed is a weakness; not being attached is a strength.

[dobro]

To me lines don't have any sequence (just my view). They talk about different realms. Line 6 is the line of the sage, outside ties and other human affairs.

Sequence is just one way of looking at it. Transcendence (if I understand your idea correctly) is another way. Both of these ideas have the sense of 'beyond the main idea of the hexagram' in some way. And both of these ideas contrast with the idea of line 6 as a high point, or fulfillment, of the main idea. Like 50.6 - that's not beyond the main idea of the Ting, it's the apogee of it.

As for the idea of the sage being associated with Line 6, well yes, sometimes, but not always. I'd say that *if* the sage comes into it, then he/she appears in Line 6. I see no sign of the sage in 45.6, for example.

[my_key]

As for the idea of the sage being associated with Line 6, well yes, sometimes, but not always. I'd say that *if* the sage comes into it, then he/she appears in Line 6. I see no sign of the sage in 45.6, for example.

45.6 claims to be without fault. If you are doing the best you can and being as wise as you can be to be without fault is this not a sign of the sage at work?

Mike

[dobro]

45.6 claims to be without fault. If you are doing the best you can and being as wise as you can be to be without fault is this not a sign of the sage at work?

I don't think you have to be a sage to be without fault as you describe it.

[trojan]

Isn't there a difference between 'not being committed' and the transcendence and non-attachment of the sage? Not being committed is a weakness; not being attached is a strength.

Thats the whole point i think Lise was making - the 6th line can range through the whole spectrum of detachment from the spiritual detachment of the sage to plain lack of interest through non attachment to outcome. I think i saw a case here where someone was fretting over relations with their landlord and asking about his mind set got 18.6 - well he was not fretting about the issues they were !

The Yi is going to answer you where you're at and within context. I've seen 18.6 mean someone just has no to cause to be bothered about something (like the landlord) to meaning someone is no longer needing to work in the outer world of 'putting things right' - they can tend to their own development .

[listener]

It is interesting about 45.6 though...it would seem line 5 was that of "the sage" since evryone gathers round that leader there....and yet, in large groupings, very often the one with the most to offer in terms of leadership, innovation, inspiration, etc. is often not appreciated, not right away...or maybe not after awhile.

It takes a certain amount of charisma and showmanship to get a crowd to gather around you. The one is 45.6 is maybe impeccable, but misunderstood by the crowd. I think of Jesus. Or oprah! sometimes you get a big following and then inevitably, the tide of public opinion starts to get negative...ie "who does he/she think he/she is??" Oprah weeps and wails all the way to the bank. and jesus wept too.
when it comes to crowds, being at the top of the heap is not a very enviable position for long.

[dobro]

Listener, I always thought the weeping in 45.6 was cuz the time of gathering for great purposes was passing or past - 'oh no! we can't do it anymore!' Endgame, in other words. You can try to map the idea of 'sage' onto that line, but I'd rather not cuz the Yi doesn't mention sages in 45.6 lol.

[getojack]

Hexagrams are like sex...
If the hexagram doesn't reach climax by line 5, line 6 is the climax.
If the hexagram reaches climax by line 5, line 6 is anticlimactic.

[getojack]

when it comes to crowds, being at the top of the heap is not a very enviable position for long.

That's why I prefer to stay at the bottom of the heap. :rofl:

[sparhawk]

Hexagrams are like sex...
If the hexagram doesn't reach climax by line 5, line 6 is the climax.
If the hexagram reaches climax by line 5, line 6 is anticlimactic.

So..., I suppose line 3 are usually foreplay gone awry, right? :rofl:

[rosada]

Just noticed that 31.6 leads to 33 and 32.6 also leads to 33 if you are just going in a straight sequence, that is if you count the lines in numerical order, 32.6 is followed by 33.1. Anyway, seems profound at this moment.

[dobro]

Maybe I should add a third category to line 6 categories: spiritual. It'd make Lise happy too. :-)

53.6 doesn't seem like the epitome of gradual advance, nor does it seem like endgame, but it definitely spiritualizes the idea of 53. Yes? No?

[getojack]

53.6 is a climax... or in your nomenclature, a high point.

[hollis]

53 line 6 is enigmatic, does that spiritualize an idea?

Endgame, or highpoint, 51 line 6?

[gene]

18 6 is what it is because of the emphasis placed on the necessity of getting to work on something, and the potential that can be created by doing so. Line 5 is the place of the ruler, but when someone studies the I Ching, and works on his/her character, there is no end to the places that we can go. Ultimately we go beyond the physical realm of kings and queens, and delve into the spiritual levels. In Taoist I Ching, we reach such a level in the development of our chi, our life force, our inner understanding, that we leave the physical level and are relegated to the realm of the immortals.

Gene

[gene]

Hexagram 53 line six has a similar emphasis as hexagram 18, being made up of the same two trigrams, just in different order. In both, the emphasis is on self development, among other things, but especially about self development.

Gene

[dobro]

53.6 is a climax... or in your nomenclature, a high point.

Yup, it's the high point, the highest point that 'gradual advancing' attains. But in that it talks about 'ritual' (the word I use in my version), it seems to me to have a spiritual overtone. No?

[dobro]

53 line 6 is enigmatic, does that spiritualize an idea?

Enigmatic in what way?


Endgame, or highpoint, 51 line 6?

Endgame for you, high point for the neighbor, I'd say. That's why there's talk.

[dobro]

18 6 is what it is because of the emphasis placed on the necessity of getting to work on something, and the potential that can be created by doing so. Line 5 is the place of the ruler, but when someone studies the I Ching, and works on his/her character, there is no end to the places that we can go. Ultimately we go beyond the physical realm of kings and queens, and delve into the spiritual levels. In Taoist I Ching, we reach such a level in the development of our chi, our life force, our inner understanding, that we leave the physical level and are relegated to the realm of the immortals.

Gene

It sounds like you're seeing 18.6 as having a spiritual nature, primarily. Is that right?

[gene]

Dobro

All the hexagrams, all the lines, are written on various levels. They mean many different things depending on the level they are looked at from. So yes, it has a spiritual nature.

[dobro]

12.6 - endgame, but very good news, because the endtime of a crummy time is good news.

[dobro]

1.6 - high point, but interestingly, negative. So a high point can be positive or negative. In the case of the creative energy of Hex 1, high point means 'too much'.

[hilary]

2.6, the fighting dragons. How is this an extreme of receptivity or service? Maybe because it's been so wide open that all initiatives, all creative forces are supported - and sometimes that's going to mean they cancel one another out?

(I've read Wilhelm's idea of the 'false dragon', and I'm not completely convinced. Thoughts?)

[rosada]

2.6
Dragons fight in the meadow.
Their blood is black and yellow.

The day we were focusing on 2.6 over on the Memorizing thread I had the experience of being blocked in a cafeteria behind a lady who was having trouble at the checkout counter. I had a tray piled high with hot delicious food that was cooling fast and I was very hungry. My instinctive Self wanted to just grab a drumstick and start munching in line. My Conscious Mature Self insisted I pay for the lunch. I ended up sneaking bites. Neither Self was satisfied:o.

[dobro]

2.6, the fighting dragons. How is this an extreme of receptivity or service? Maybe because it's been so wide open that all initiatives, all creative forces are supported - and sometimes that's going to mean they cancel one another out?

(I've read Wilhelm's idea of the 'false dragon', and I'm not completely convinced. Thoughts?)


Hex 2 is the most mysterious hexagram in the whole Yi for me. For one thing, it seems to me that each individual line is a law unto itself, unrelated to the other lines in the hex. So, is *that* one of the characteristics of Hex 2? For another thing, line 2.6... It almost seems as though 'when you scratch 2, you get 1'. In other words, I see 2.6 as endgame, and that means that as Hex 2 wanes, what comes through is Hex 1! Carumba! Cuz if that's the case, then there's a parallel between each individual line in Hex 1 and its Hex 2 correspondent. The submerged dragon of 1 and the 'not yet frozen ice of 2, and so on...

Anyway, in answer to your first question, I don't think 2.6 is an extreme of 2-ness. I think it's endgame 2. (In which 1 shines through with its problem with dragons...)

[dobro]

Carumba!

Sorry, Luis. Caramba. I guess astonishment makes me dancy.

[auriel]

53 is a view of man as trying to nurture a little advantage by marketing dry experience to a mostly disinterested world; and the world responds in kind with small favors, a few feathers for the nest. This is how a father prepares a way for his son (line 1). The sixth line is a perspective of the sage's heroic effort; the lower lines of his struggles as a naif on this earth.
Similarly 13 is a view of man as trying to take part in the great social celebration of life; the perspective of the sage in the top line has it "just outside town"- never quite in reach.

[dobro]

auriel, is the plural of 'naif' 'naives' or 'naifs'?

[hilary]

53 is a view of man as trying to nurture a little advantage by marketing dry experience to a mostly disinterested world...

This is a take on 53 I've never encountered before. Could you say more about this view and how you arrived at it?

[trojan]

how does one 'market dry experience' anyway :confused:

[auriel]

i see this hex(53) as following on 52 which might be seen as the sage's integration into a social group, stillness as a way of matching tempo with it. The master of meditation then has a global perspective of the group, but to the group he is just another wild goose- an outlier-disrupter like the passionate young man (1), the robber(3), the woman who wont accept her biological role(5). {could add the loose woman of the flat branched tree(4), the hunter-entertainer(2)} these are all encounters on the sage's journey to enlightenment and all have abstracted some social skill to survive on but obtain very little social maneuverability
And all will gradually progress in &into their roles, and the group will gradually profit- especially by the legends left behind

not sure how y'all'd pluralize naif- wait are you teasin me?

[dobro]

Not teasing - it was the bit that really caught my eye.

[dobro]

40.6 - high point: 'without no advantage'. You're released from whatever tension or threat the hawk represented, released from whatever tension there was just in taking the shot.

[auriel]

40.6 -more a best case scenario, no?
or again the sage's perspective:
The master has no doubt- he and the target are one-

[dobro]

Yes, that's one application of 40.6. But at that level of realization, at that level of being where you and the target are one, you don't need the Yi to help you along. :)

[dobro]

41.6 - endgame, but good news.

'In no way diminishing it, augmenting it'

[my_key]

42.6- You've puffed yourself up too big and too quickly. You're about to explode. The end is nigh !!

[dobro]

42.6- You've puffed yourself up too big and too quickly. You're about to explode. The end is nigh !!

Where do you see the 'puffed up' bit in 42.6? In the overall picture of 42 being 'augmentation'?

I see 42 more as not being centered, not being in accordance with your highest and best values. Because it's endgame, it's past the time of augmentation, and that leaves you vulnerable.

But the 'puffed up' thing you speak of - I see that in 61.6. The cockadoodledoo that penetrates heaven. But I've never been able to see that as either high point or endgame. It seems more Hex 28 than anything else.

[hilary]

Some years ago, I downloaded a sample reading generated by some new I Ching software. I found the text was Brad's, plagiarised without attribution or permission. The software's author later told me that his staff had 'found' this text for him and he'd simply accepted it as a perfect gift, just what he needed - a blessing.

The sample reading? 42.6

Also I seem to remember that when I installed the software trial version, something went wrong, and I ended up with an installation that would only deliver one answer. Same again.

Brad and I complained; the software author apologised, grovelled, put things right, etc. The incident still exemplifies 42.6 for me, though.

[dobro]

It's the third line of 42.6 that's always puzzled me. My rendering of it is: "ordered heart not continuing". What's yours, Hilary?

[my_key]

[quote] Where do you see the 'puffed up' bit in 42.6? In the overall picture of 42 being 'augmentation'?[quote]

Hi Dobro

42 Augmenting - I see it in general as a time of advancement and development it's about expansion - "puffed up" is perhaps not the best phrase to have used due to the other colloquial meanings it has, maybe I should have used the term blown up, like a balloon. It's about shifting your stance on ideas and thoughts that you hold and the way that you incorporate those changes. Building a better situation, becoming bigger as a person, more rounded.

42.6 - If you don't build on sound foundations there is a greater chance that the tower is going to topple over, is perhaps another way of looking at it.

Hilary's 42.6 story is a good example of this. This guy took the "easy" path ( unethical?) and his world collapsed when hilary and brad ganged up on him.:)

I hope that helps answer your query.

Love and hugs

[dobro]

Hi Dobro

42 Augmenting - I see it in general as a time of advancement and development it's about expansion... It's about shifting your stance on ideas and thoughts that you hold and the way that you incorporate those changes. Building a better situation, becoming bigger as a person, more rounded.

I see expansion in 42, but more as what you put into the situation yourself. However, I don't see any 'shifting your stance on ideas and thought that you hold and the way you incorporate those changes' in 42. (I would think that was more Hex 49 or 50.) Can you talk about how you see changing understanding in 42?

42.6 - If you don't build on sound foundations there is a greater chance that the tower is going to topple over, is perhaps another way of looking at it.

Again, I don't see any 'pride goeth before a fall' stuff in 42.6. I just see a situation that will bite you in the bum if you don't keep your heart ordered.

Hilary's 42.6 story is a good example of this. This guy took the "easy" path ( unethical?) and his world collapsed when hilary and brad ganged up on him.:)

Yeah, I think it exemplifies 42.6 pretty well, too.

[auriel]

The inconstant heart of 42.6 is simply greed. Making out with the babysitter 'cuz she's available. Acquisition becomes a habit, where the specific types of acquisition correspondingly change one's personality. Take a high pressure job so you can retire to luxury and die of a heart attack at age 42. Collect stamps out of need for a calming hobby and become a nervous pedant. In contrast, in 41.6 the habits of sacrifice lead to connections- not enemies- you acquire an entry to that social network that in 42 is being exploited (and which will mechanistically extract its revenge from the importuning)
These are endgames depicted with warning appended

:flout conventional wisdom at your own peril

[dobro]

Auriel - pretty much, yeah. But two things.

First, it might be greed, or it might be anxiety. A disordered heart that does too much can arise out of more than greed.

Second, you see the 'disordered heart' as the cause of the excessive doing, and that's the likeliest scenario. But there's another possibility, and it's worth considering: augmenting has resulted in a setback or attack on oneself ('in no way augmenting him, maybe striking him'). Okay, so NOW it's crucial to keep your heart steady (determined, not discouraged, and so on), otherwise the blow you've received will be more than painful, it will spin you into misfortune. In other words, in this scenario the 'disordered heart' is a knock on effect (ha!) of the blow received.

[auriel]

yeah dobro, very good
i see these 2 hexagrams as parallel to concepts of prananama, intake and output as the basis for all activity.
but found troubling the finality here. In some schools of classical yoga the maintaining of cool in extending the ultimate in and out points is considered mastery

we are all ultimately collectors and dispersers; "greed" or "anxiety" are just emotional markers.
just an image:
consider the chief gathering feathers and acts of bravery; he will lead; and will invite as well the blows of challenge if he doesn't lead well- or even maybe if he does
or:
the charity organization head who has raised enough money to feed the poor, but gets unjustly criticized for his 6 million salary and private jet (lol)

[auriel]

by the way how much money does Hilary earn? just curious-

[hilary]

You want to charter the company jet? Send me a pm.

[sparhawk]

by the way how much money does Hilary earn? just curious-

Enough to pay my salary as "Chief Diviner and Court Jester," which comes with a very generous pension and health care package... :rofl:

[cesca]

Hmmm...I got 44.1/6 today (daily hexagram)...this one is definitely endgame. Line 1 is saying 'don't get distracted', and Line 6 is pointing out that being overfocussed is a distraction in itself. :duh:

Cesca

[dobro]

3.6 is a bit mysterious to me. It comes across as 'ready to proceed, but extremely distraught'. Considering that 3 is about beginnings, it seems that it's endgame being imaged here, but if you consider that 3 is about DIFFICULT beginnings, then 3.6 is about as difficult a beginning as you'd ever want or need lol, and therefore a kind of highpoint.

What's your take?

[hilary]

Pouring your whole self into beginning something - lavishing care and attention into polishing each buckle of your horses' harness, taking out a second mortgage to buy the chariot, putting your whole self on the line... - when it's never going to get off the ground. And if you stay here, you won't have enough blood left in you to start anything new.

[cesca]

Pouring your whole self into beginning something - lavishing care and attention into polishing each buckle of your horses' harness, taking out a second mortgage to buy the chariot, putting your whole self on the line... - when it's never going to get off the ground. And if you stay here, you won't have enough blood left in you to start anything new.

I see it as just as dire, but somehow less serious: You're at the end of the gua, can't go any further, yet you can't turn back either. It's all gone tits up, spectacularly. But hey, that's no reason to make a spectacle of yourself -- come on, pull yourself together and stop making such a scene.

Like an ironic sort of gentle chiding -- 'yes, that definitely went right down the pan...and you're making sure everyone knows it'.

Maybe implying it's sort of ... childish ... to carry on like that.

Cesca

[hilary]

Nice take on it, thank you. I think that most dire lines have this kind of milder version, and I often hear ironic overtones. Like 16.5: 'Hm, it hasn't actually killed you, has it?'

[dobro]

More and more often, I get something out of what ISN'T in a line or hexagram. So, because 3.6 doesn't have any valuation added to the line, I'm thinking it doesn't have to be as dire as it looks. I know, I know - somebody's gonna say: "The reason it doesn't have any valuation added to the line is cuz it's so obvious that it's bad news that it doesn't need to be said."

But maybe lines with a lack of valuation lack the valuation because there's a sort of built-in ambiguity. Not an ambiguity in the linguistic expression of the situation in the Yi, but in the very situation itself. "It was the best of times; it was the worst of times." Or maybe it's even more ambiguous than coincidental extremes; maybe it's like this: "Well, dobro, this is a weird old situation, that's for sure. Now...whatcha gonna make of it?"

[dobro]

20.6 - I think it's a high point because the contemplation is of others, not oneself. Your mileage may vary, though - perhaps you don't see 'contemplation of the whole group' as higher than 'contemplation of one's self'.

19.6 - neither endgame nor high point. Hmm.... It's not endgame, cuz the line still indicates that the overall undertaking/overseeing of 19 still obtains as fully as in the case of the other lines, and it's not high point, cuz lines like 19.1 and 19.2 are as 'auspicious' and as full of 19-ness as 19.6, if not more. So, why would the 19-ness of line 6 not be waning? What is it about 19 that makes its essence as strong in the first and top lines as in the other lines?

[dobro]

27.6 - high point. Instead of rejecting or overturning nourishment, you've gone to the source. Now *that* is nourishment. I like the way 'danger' is added to the image. Nothing if not useful, the Yi.

[dobro]

21.6: endgame. The obstacle here, the cangue covering the ears, isn't being overcome (overcoming obstacles is the whole point of 21) at all, hence the 'misfortune' valuation. The time of breaking through obstacles is passing at the very same time that an obstacle needs to be broken through.

[auriel]

dobro
don't want to dash yer fine theoretical musics. but its a nice parallel here: 21; a law, a theory, technique, or rule of thumb is constructed as a tool to gnaw through the barriers and unite things that tend to enhance their own separateness at the expense of right order (like the various market vendors in cut-throat competition, you and your meal on the hoof, the urge to rape, plunder, kill and society or even conflicting readings of the Yi); when this union is not accomplished, when rules are flouted- punishment 21.6; when the constructed law is obsessed with to the point of lost contact with reality. 21.6.
endgames.
but it (21.6) also describes the prior condition too: the problem sets we have we have to gnaw on come as a result of over-concentration on one thing at the expense of others, balance forfeited. by the time it comes to chewing gristle you should have already gone to the supermarket;
disconnect your ipod and do your homework or you wont get supper. C:|

[dobro]

The reason I think 21.6 isn't a high point of Hex 21 is cuz, for me, the essence of 21 is breaking through the obstacle, whereas the punishment is just a useful tool to that end, not the end in itself. (The breaking through is the end, or goal.) So 21.6 doesn't image breaking through an obstacle; it images both a punishment and an obstacle (which is a rather nifty double image, I think. You can't hear because of the cangue; you're being punished with a cangue because you didn't listen.)

[trojan]

Any thoughts on 17.6 ?

[sparhawk]

Any thoughts on 17.6 ?

Endgame... Pretty much, IMO. The image of the king, offering to the West Mountain, a place of rapid sunsets and approaching darkness, shows a departure.

I will add a cool quote for this line by RGH Siu (let's try to see the endgame there...): Suppose a ruler wants... a garment made from cloth that is difficult to cut properly; he will certainly look for a skillful tailor....To cure a sick horse, he will certainly look for a skillful physician. For all such tasks the ruler will not employ his relatives, nor those who are rich and noble but lack merit, nor those who are merely good looking, for he understands that they are not capable of performing them...But when it is a question of governing the state, it is not so. For this task, the ruler selects those who are merely good-looking...Does he care less for the state than for a sick horse or a suit of clothes?...
When the sage-kings of old governed the world, those whom they enriched and ennobled were not necessarily their relatives, or the rich and noble, or the good-looking. Thus Shun had been a farmer...a potter...a fisherman...and a peddler. But Yao discovered him...made him emperor, and turned over to him the control of the empire and the government of the people. Mozi (479-381 B.C.)

[trojan]

well i checked out my Portable Dragon (cheating, looking for clues) and the commentary is The sage, who is retired, is recalled by the king because of his unique qualifications. The faithful and effective subject is rewarded

So how is that an endgame ? Aha I get it, its an endgame for the ones who had no real talent who were there only because of their nobility, looks etc who were blind followers.

Hmm then isn't it a highpoint for the ones who have real skill and an end game for those who don't ? So 17.6 could be either depending on ones relation to the question one has asked ? Wondering why you always see it as endgame then ?

[sparhawk]

well i checked out my Portable Dragon (cheating, looking for clues) and the commentary is The sage, who is retired, is recalled by the king because of his unique qualifications. The faithful and effective subject is rewarded

So how is that an endgame ? Aha I get it, its an endgame for the ones who had no real talent who were there only because of their nobility, looks etc who were blind followers.

Hmm then isn't it a highpoint for the ones who have real skill and an end game for those who don't ? So 17.6 could be either depending on ones relation to the question one has asked ? Wondering why you always see it as endgame then ?

Thanks for typing that,...I was lazy... :D For some reason, I like better his literary quotes than his interpretations of the lines. Sometimes I feel a disconnection between them, which doesn't make make much sense since the quotes are there to support his interpretations... In any case, in this I go by the imagery of the text and what it suggest to me. The imagery shows me the culmination of the time of "Following" in the sixth line. A wrap-up.

[dobro]

For me, 17.6 falls into the (rather large) category of 'lines which are mysterious to me'. These days, I'm reading it as having two parts, but I'm having trouble seeing the relation between the two parts:

The first part talks about a strong connection that holds something back as it's being followed.

The second part talks about an important sacrifice.

What I don't see is whether the first part is positive or negative, and whether the sacrifice talked about in the second part refers to that strong connection and following that's going on in the first part.

So, high point or endgame? The strength of the connection and following suggests high point, but what's the nature of that sacrifice? Is it a sacrifice that rides on the strength of the connection and following? That would be high point. Or does it sacrifice the connection and following (because the time of following is fading)? That would be endgame.

I don't know. The link to Hex 25 doesn't help me, either.

Your call.

[topal]

So, high point or endgame? The strength of the connection and following suggests high point, but what's the nature of that sacrifice? Is it a sacrifice that rides on the strength of the connection and following? That would be high point. Or does it sacrifice the connection and following (because the time of following is fading)? That would be endgame.

I don't know. The link to Hex 25 doesn't help me, either.

Your call.


Reviewing what was said in this thread on 17.6:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4120

Topal

[sparhawk]

Thanks! I forgot there was a thread dedicated to this line... Daunting and slippery, to say the least.

[dobro]

Daunting and slippery, to say the least.

Quite simply capable of being interpreted in one of at least two ways.

Hex 25 is perhaps 'without entanglement'. So how does that work its way into the meaning of 17.6? Imagine a leader with a very attached following. How does he/she become 'without entanglement' in this situation? 17.6 suggests the way is via a sacrifice. Good idea. But does the leader keep the followers with all their attachments and demands (kind of like Ramana Maharsi, I think, at the end of his life), or does the leader sacrifice the binding, onerous connection between himself and the followers (Lao Tse?)

I'm tending toward the former. You have to be able to sustain a certain amount of dynamic tension in order for good things to happen, and the former interpretation allows for that; indeed, it exploits it and supports it simultaneously. That would be high point, then.

[sparhawk]

I'm tending toward the former. You have to be able to sustain a certain amount of dynamic tension in order for good things to happen, and the former interpretation allows for that; indeed, it exploits it and supports it simultaneously. That would be high point, then.


Not so fast... :D (Just to be a contrarian, mind you, as I agree that it can be interpreted in many ways...)

Let me borrow from Lindsay's post in the other thread as I think he was on the right track:

The first part of it is anyone's guess. In Chinese:

ju1 - seized, captured
xi4 - bound, tied up
zhi1 - they, them
Possibly: "they are seized and tied up"

nai3 - then, after this
cong2 - follow, pursue
wei2 - tied up, held fast
zhi1 - they, them
Possibly: "then those who follow are tied up"

What does this mean? Beats me. I have looked at 15 translations by scholars familiar with old Chinese, and there are 15 different interpretations. If anyone says they know the exact meaning, I would question that claim seriously.


Let's split some hairs: Would you agree that the "pivot" character in the line is (zhi1) 之? It is used as a pronoun but it has other meanings. According to Wieger, the original meanings were progress, development, continuity. It is only recently (taking "recently" with a grain of salt as I don't know how far back in history that goes...) that it is used as a modifier, pronoun and, very important, as a possessive (i.e. its, his/hers). For example, changing lines were written thusly: Kun 之 Zhun (2,1.5>3), meaning Kun 'its' Zhun.

The thing is, how far back in history are we willing to go to assume the text of the Yi remains intact and true to the original and thus to its correct semantic meaning? Now, I won't word it, but, as an exercise (not saying it is correct...), try to substitute the "modern" pronoun usage of zhi1 for some of the original meaning of the character. Possible endgame or not?

[charly]

... Would you agree that the "pivot" character in the line is (zhi1) 之? It is used as a pronoun but it has other meanings. According to Wieger, the original meanings were progress, development, continuity... it is used as a modifier, pronoun and, very important, as a possessive (i.e. its, his/hers)... as an exercise (not saying it is correct...), try to substitute the "modern" pronoun usage of zhi1 for some of the original meaning of the character...

Luis:

From Sears Chinese Etymology, an oracle bone 之zhi character:
http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Oracle/J10000/j14700/j14730.gif

... Signific: 之 remnant
Etymology: ... A foot print pointing forward, Cursive form of 止
... ShuoWen: 出也象艸過屮枝莖益大有所之一者地也凡之之屬皆從之
... English Senses For zhi1: to go to / to leave for / to arrive at / zigzag / winding / an expletive / third person objective case ( it / her / him / them ) / ( this / that / these / those / ( possessive particle ) of
http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E4%B9%8B&submitButton1=Etymology


Sears says it's a footprint, but the modern shape looks like «the mark of the Zorro» meanwhile oracle bone character looks like a female pubis standing on an horizontal stroke.

Um andar de gacela, una cinturita de avispa, piel de terciopelo, cabellos de lino, manos de Eurídice, ¡qué garota Dios mío! unos piecitos... pequeñicos... unos pies cúbicos, el talón de Aquiles, la nuez moscada y la lengua muerta, los ojos de buey, palmas de Mallorca, nalgas marinas, y um pubis, tenía um pubis...

JM: Pubis pro nobis.
Les Luthiers: http://www.peseatodo.com.ar/re74d.htm

I'm affraid that I cann't translate this jewel.

Abrazo,

Charly

[sparhawk]

Hola Charly,


Luis:

From Sears Chinese Etymology, an oracle bone 之zhi character:
http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Oracle/J10000/j14700/j14730.gif



If we believe in Wieger, then Sears' Etymology for this character is wrong and it isn't a "Remnant Primitive, A foot print pointing forward, Cursive form of 止." See scans below:

http://www.sorocabana.com/images/zhi1-01.jpg

Then, here are the ones used as cursive for 止, first a description of 止 and then the character that "looks" like zhi1:

http://www.sorocabana.com/images/zhi1-02-1.jpg

http://www.sorocabana.com/images/zhi1-02.jpg

Sears says it's a footprint, but the modern shape looks like «the mark of the Zorro» meanwhile oracle bone character looks like a female pubis standing on an horizontal stroke.Well, I don't think it looks like a female pubis standing on anything, but, I really like the way you think... :rofl:

Perhaps Brad or Harmen have some more educated ideas about this character...

Un abrazo,

[dobro]

It's a cactus, not a pubis. Easy mistake to make, though.

[charly]

It's a cactus, not a pubis. Easy mistake to make, though.

Dobro:

I'm affraid that that a cactus fits best. Easy mistake indeed!

Don't you think that «the mark of Zorro» is no bad in relation to that cactus?

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/jby0271l.jpg

And of course, in chinese folklore fox(1) and sexuallity are close related.

Yours,

Charly

___________________
(1)Zorro = fox

[charly]

... I don't think it looks like a female pubis standing on anything...
Perhaps Brad or Harmen have some more educated ideas about this character ...

Luis:

I thought it was the image of an early Mother Goddess, that's why standing on earth, but Dobro suggests a cactus!

More educated, of course, but I doubt if less dirty minded. See you:

Firsth of all, thanks for the scans. Wieger issuing stands close to the Dobro's cactus, but don't trust all the things Wieger says, most often he isn't but another dirty guy.

Let me start from Sears. I've found my feet! You always find your feet because they are appended to you.

Thus foot → appended → to pertain to → 's

The mark of pertaining, like the Zorro's Zeta → 之zhi, also valid for cactus lovers.

It marks something that pertains to you like an appended part of your body, maybe a wife (or a husband) or your own other ego, your own mirror image. Maybe Zhi could function like an equation mark:

x's y (y of x, y pertains to x), or
x = y (x equal to y o x implies y)

33.2 example:

執 | zhi2 | to execute a plan / to grasp / to catch (1)
之 | zhi1 | 's / him / her / it / [ = ?]
用 | yong4 | to use / to apply
黃 | huang2 | yellow / golden
牛 | niu2 | ox (no genre) / cow / bull /
之 | zhi1 | 's / him / her / it /
革 | ge2 | leather / skin / to remove / to strip / [ nakedness ? ] (2)

莫 | mo4 | do not / none / do not (3)
之 | zhi1 | 's / him / her / it /
勝 | sheng4 | able to do / competent enough to / ability
說 | shuo1 | persuade / speak / joy (4)

Quoting Müller:

(1) 愛執 The grip of love and desire.
(2) 革 Skins, hides, pelts; strip, cut off.
(3)莫 Not; none; no; do not; ... contrary (to wishes).
(4) 說 To speak, say, talk, discourse, expound; speech, etc. Used for 悅 pleased.

Functions of Zhi in the 33.2 text:



To grasp (執 related to love and desire)
is equivalent to / is the same as / implies / requires
to apply (用) ... [the following]

... the stripping (an action, not a noun, not skin / leather)
of the [possessive]
golden ox [no genre, cow for girls, bull for guys? vice versa?]...

...
... ability to speak
pertains to [possessive]
none / nobody


Temporary:
[I]«To grasp (to passionately catch) requires to apply the ineffable stripping of the golden ... [you choose: ox, cow, bull... or methaphoric]» (1)

Common but straight. I believe you were right, 之zhi is the key, a winding key.

See you that the line begins with a fun zhi-zhi (little laugh, Je je!)

Un abrazo,

Charly

_____________________
(1) niu (ox) doesn't it sound pretty close to nü (woman)?

[sparhawk]

Firsth of all, thanks for the scans. Wieger issuing stands close to the Dobro's cactus, but don't trust all the things Wieger says, most often he isn't but another dirty guy.

Aren't we all... :rofl:

[heylise]

Could it be that 17.6 has to do with catching things? Fishing for salmon, but you can only catch it if you can think like salmon, become salmon. Become the deer, become the rabbit.

"Embrace (cherish) it and relate with it. (Only) then follow and catch it. The king offers a sacrifice at the Western Mountain."

Of course it will apply to more than catching dinner, there are lots of things which have to be caught because they will not fall in your lap by themselves. And the fanyao of innocent moving also makes sense. Not good to move around in the forest that way, you will chase everything away.

For becoming one with what you desire a sacrifice might be a good start. Or sacrificing a part of what the gods let you catch this way. Vaguely I remember something like that from a story of American Indians. 'Becoming the salmon' is not vague, but there was also something about giving back of it.

Interesting is that one of the meanings of wei2 'catch' is netting.

I hope I am not disturbing anything, have to read most of the posts yet, but this came up.. so..

LiSe

[sparhawk]

"Embrace (cherish) it and relate with it. (Only) then follow and catch it. The king offers a sacrifice at the Western Mountain."

.....


I hope I am not disturbing anything, have to read most of the posts yet, but this came up.. so..

LiSe


Sigh, I wish you would disturb more often... :) It is a nice concept, indeed. Now, I see you took the traditional approach to 之 and translated it as the pronoun "it," which is fine. My other ideas are only speculations to support my view of the line.

[electraglide]

"Is it the last word thing again?" Mr Clever Clogs said to Stone Monkey.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/electraglide/ANI/a-dragon.gif
:bows:
"Ah so,
an easy way
out"

Stone Monkey retorted (as it began to turn into sand)


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/electraglide/REGS/throckwarriorX-1.jpg
ELECTRAGLIDE (http://plat0.multiply.com/)

[dobro]

If you wait long enough for it, the little yellow guy bows his head just as Luis' dragon breathes fire on him.

[dobro]

Could it be that 17.6 has to do with catching things? Fishing for salmon, but you can only catch it if you can think like salmon, become salmon. Become the deer, become the rabbit.

"Embrace (cherish) it and relate with it. (Only) then follow and catch it. The king offers a sacrifice at the Western Mountain."

Interesting is that one of the meanings of wei2 'catch' is netting.

I hope I am not disturbing anything, have to read most of the posts yet, but this came up.. so..

LiSe

Maybe. 17.2 and 17.3 talk about 'binding', 17.4 talks about catching, and 17.5 talks about 'capturing' (I render it as 'capturing' rather than sincerity, which I don't think works as well). So, attachment and catching or capturing seems to run throughout 17. I like how the 'maturity' that's mentioned in 17.3 is echoed in its correlate, 17.6. I see the sacrifice by the king on the Western Mountain as a kind of maturity. Both are yin lines, and they echo each other in terms of value and meaning I think. So, looking at it that way, the fact that 17.3 leaves the 'small son' behind ('letting go small son') might indicate that in 17.6, the king is using the sacrifice on the Western Mountain as a way to leave his following behind. Which, if true, means 17.6 is endgame, cuz the time of following is past.

[electraglide]

definately maybe.

[sparhawk]

Which, if true, means 17.6 is endgame, cuz the time of following is past.

Mind you, this line is wicked to interpret in a good day but, that is exactly what I had in mind. :bows:

[dobro]

Luis, at this point, I think we're primed for the next time we draw 17.6 - I think we'll be able to see which of the meanings we've speculated on it actually has, based on experience.

How much you wanna bet I draw it before you?

[trojan]

Well if your're following something what is the highpoint of that ? if you are following a teacher say, whats the best endpoint of that ? Surely it would be to have internalised the teacher and the teachings to such an extent following them is no longer required. To that extent I'd go with Lises ideas on it. Could be the followers are turned away by the followed but I reckon this line could go either way - the following falls away because its no longer required, the following has acheived its aim.

Alot of commentaries seems to suggest the bonds between followed and followers are tightened, like Wilhelm "He meets with firm allegiance and is still further bound"

Noone answered my point that if it were the king turning away the blind followers but not the ones with true merit - then wouldn't it depend on your position in the situation - you may not be a blind follower, you may be the one with merit, if so maybe you are further bound to allegiance to the king.

[dobro]

Well if your're following something what is the highpoint of that ?

When I noticed that some line 6's epitomize or express the essence of the whole hexagram (for instance 14.6 is 'big having' in spades, right?), I decided to name that 'high point'. That's what I meant by 'high point'.

So, all that binding and connecting that's going on in 17.6 seems to be like an epitome of following - what's being followed is being followed so closely and enthusiastically and maybe even obsessionally (is 'obsessionally' a word?) that there could be no greater or more spectacular example of following. High point, in other words.

But does the sacrifice sacrifice all that? I'm thinking maybe it does, cuz of the parallel with 17.3 (line 3 and line 6 sometimes echo each other, right?).

[sparhawk]

even obsessionally (is 'obsessionally' a word?)

Nope, but "obsessively" is... :rofl:

[dobro]

Thank you. My brain wandered into a linguistic dark hole. I hate that.

[trojan]

But does the sacrifice sacrifice all that? I'm thinking maybe it does, cuz of the parallel with 17.3 (line 3 and line 6 sometimes echo each other, right?).

I don't know. The way i see it the following must end because its served its purpose - that could be a negative or a positive. Negative if the following was false and pointless, positive if the following went somewhere, served a larger purpose. In that case one could say the following is consumated. If part of 17s meaning is being faithful to an ideal and line2 shows following a lesser and line 3 a greater and line 5 truly following ones highest aspiration then line 6 could be the fulfillment of that, to my mind at least. I don't know about the sacrifice - hmm the following is sacrificed when the followers aren't needed, though generally followers aren't needed they want to do the following :confused: I give up - seems alot depends on if you see following as serving or not -

As for obsession I do think this line has something to do with that yes

[my_key]

Dobro / Trojan - Interesting dialogue here.
IMO - In general terms you make a sacrifice, i.e give one thing up, to allow room for something else to take it's place, manifest itself in your life.
17.6 is about making this room to allow a connection with something greater and as such it's a positive expansion. It is an end in some respects, but more of a starting point for something better.
Onwards and upwards - following a path that is right and correct for you at that time.
Mike

[topal]

Dobro / Trojan - Interesting dialogue here.
IMO - In general terms you make a sacrifice i.e give one thing up to allow room for something else to take it's place, manifext itself in your life.
17.6 is about making this room to allow a connection with something greater and as such it's a positive expansion. It is an end in some respects, but more of a starting point for something better.
Onwards and upwards - following a path that is right and correct for you at that time.
Mike

You took the words out of my mouth Mike. That seems to be, for me, the most accurate way to describe this line - at least in my own experience. Yes, Interesting thread - lots to think on.

Topal

[trojan]

Yeah Mykey/Topal I was leaning to your view but it doesn't fit with the more sombre view of the line taken by the learned, you know like Luis and Brad who actually translate from Chinese - so I'm not that sure if we bark up the right tree, but still I think it is one of the most nebulous lines in the Yi. I guess we have to look to experience too.

[sparhawk]

more sombre view of the line taken by the learned, you know like Luis

:eek::confused::bag::rofl:

[trojan]

Perhaps i should refer to you as 'My Learned Friend' from now on, or 'Luis the Learned' - well c'mon Luis you know you have to distinguish yourself from us peasants :rofl:

[sparhawk]

Perhaps i should refer to you as 'My Learned Friend' from now on, or 'Luis the Learned' - well c'mon Luis you know you have to distinguish yourself from us peasants :rofl:

"Luis, the flirting clown" is OK. OTOH, you just wait 'till I master them haikus... :D

[my_key]

Yeah Mykey/Topal I was leaning to your view but it doesn't fit with the more sombre view of the line taken by the learned, you know like Luis and Brad who actually translate from Chinese - so I'm not that sure if we bark up the right tree, but still I think it is one of the most nebulous lines in the Yi. I guess we have to look to experience too.

Hi Trojan
Reading some of the other threads on 17.6 I'm not sure that the "learned people" are sure what to make of this line when they translate it from the original Chinese. Sombre was never a strong suit for me, it all seems much too dark and serious. We should always try to allow the light to shine in and bring the clowns with it. I don't want to be too dogmatic here, but I think the tree we are barking up has as much right to be spreading it's branches as any other.

To my mind there is a really nice flow about the "Mykey/Topal view" and with the related hexagram 25 - Stagnation indicating what is behind this line my money is still resting on the making room for opportunities for growth - personal or spirtual or maybe even both.

Really though it's about what you feel is right for you when you connect with it. For me though, I can't wait for the next time I bump into it on a dark night down some alley on the rough side of town.

Mike

[sparhawk]

Reading some of the other threads on 17.6 I'm not sure that the "learned people" are sure what to make of this line when they translate it from the original Chinese.

No respect for erudition, I tell you... Geeze... :D Thanks for deflating my head; that Trojan lady knows how to flatter men... :rofl:

Regarding 17.6, let's remember that the context of my opinion is based on the subject of the thread (Highpoint vs Endgame) and thus is very narrow. Actual interpretations in a reading are contextual with the subject brought up by the querent and can very well differ. I do think this line is one of the most ambiguous one in the Yi.

[trojan]

Hi Trojan
Reading some of the other threads on 17.6 I'm not sure that the "learned people" are sure what to make of this line when they translate it from the original Chinese. Sombre was never a strong suit for me, it all seems much too dark and serious. We should always try to allow the light to shine in and bring the clowns with it. I don't want to be too dogmatic here, but I think the tree we are barking up has as much right to be spreading it's branches as any other.

Mike

Absolutely I agree our tree has a right to branch :D and it does seem this is a very ambiguous line whether one can translate Chinese or not.

[dobro]

Dobro / Trojan - Interesting dialogue here.
IMO - In general terms you make a sacrifice, i.e give one thing up, to allow room for something else to take it's place, manifest itself in your life.
17.6 is about making this room to allow a connection with something greater and as such it's a positive expansion. It is an end in some respects, but more of a starting point for something better.
Onwards and upwards - following a path that is right and correct for you at that time.
Mike

Yup, you understand sacrifice. Okay, so imagine you're the king on the Western Mountain, sacrificing in the time of Following. Of *course* you're sacrificing to allow room for something greater or better to occur - that's what sacrifice is all about: you give up something you're attached to for the sake of something better - the thing about a sacrifice is that it COSTS you something in terms of giving up something that's valuable to you in some way. That something might be a physical object, a physical pleasure, a relationship (these are relatively external things, I think) or it might be an attitude or a belief (these are more internal).

Scenario 1: As king, you have loyal, over-attached followers; you'd rather the connection weren't so strong. You accept the following, but sacrifice to the ancestors on the Western Mountain to counterbalance the earthly burden with a spiritual connection.

Scenario 2: As king, you decide to sacrifice the over-tight connection with your followers as a way for everyone to gain some spiritual space and altitude.

Scenario 3: As king, this has nothing to do with your followers, and everything to do with what YOU are following. It's time to attach yourself so firmly to the spiritual that the bond will never be broken. You sacrifice on the Western Mountain.

Scenario 4: Followers detain the king with serious obligations, hence they find themselves bound to him as well. The king's response is to sacrifice on the Western Mountain, and all share in the benefit.

So, which one appeals to you more?

ps Luis: I think in answer to your previous question, I think of that word as 'him', referring to the king.

[my_key]

Hi Dobro
Wow !! - Tough question. This reminds me of the type of question you get in personality profile tests - I think there is a career opportunity here for you ;).
You have put a lot of thought into the scenarios here. It certainly got the mental juices flowing at this end of the internet. I can think of situations where I would /could and have done all of them at different times depending on the context. Each is about perceived costs v benefits. If you can overcome your attachment to any particular object, relationship, belief etc then the cost of any sacrifice is low and the benefits are enormous. Maybe it's the giving up of the attachment that is the sacrifice?

Luis

Regarding 17.6, let's remember that the context of my opinion is based on the subject of the thread (Highpoint vs Endgame) and thus is very narrow. Actual interpretations in a reading are contextual with the subject brought up by the querent and can very well differ. I do think this line is one of the most ambiguous one in the Yi.


I agree, the scope of the thread is perhaps too narrow for the amiguity of the line and without any context it is darn near impossible to hit the nail on the head. I'm in 3 minds as to what to think next about this.

Trying to be simplistic and taking a lead from Heisenberg - I'm certain that I'm uncertain - so let's try looking at it from 2 different perspectives.
If it's viewed from the point of the sacrifice then yep it's an end game, but if viewed from the "nobility" of making the sacrifice then it's a high point.

Is this another case of whether you see the glass as half full or half empty?

Mike

[trojan]

Dobros four scenarios seem strange to me because on receiving this hexagram and line I always assume i am in the role of follower, not the king. It must be so mustn't it ? If you draw this hexgram you are following or the time requires following, I never think of it as a hexagram where one is taking the lead, taking the initiative, although its true in line 4 one seems to be the followed. So I'd have to discount Dobros first three scenarios here because one is subject to the actions of the king not the king himself. So I never saw it as one needs to make a sacrifice but rather the King makes a sacrifice but whether this is for the subjects good or not I guess varies according to ones interpretation in relation to a specific question.

Just thinking aloud really, maybe we are meant to identify with the king i just never saw it that way before.

[trojan]

ps Luis: I think in answer to your previous question, I think of that word as 'him', referring to the king.

I can't see that King and 'him' can be the same person ? Wilhelm says "The king introduces him" That doesn't make sense if you say the 'him' = the king

[sparhawk]

I can't see that King and 'him' can be the same person ? Wilhelm says "The king introduces him" That doesn't make sense if you say the 'him' = the king

I think Dobro is talking about the character zhi1 (之), which is a valid translation...

[my_key]

Just thinking aloud really, maybe we are meant to identify with the king i just never saw it that way before.

I think you are definitely doing the following but there is a development, a maturity of what you need to follow as there is progression up the hexagram. Is it not something like following your base instincts at the lower lines with following of a higher spiritual ideal at the higher lines.?

By the time you have matured to line 6 maybe you are a king and the sacrifice that you have to make is taking you to higher places.

Mike

[trojan]

I think Dobro is talking about the character zhi1 (之), which is a valid translation...

Ah yes I forgot Dobro was on the path to the learned :D

[trojan]

I think you are definitely doing the following but there is a development, a maturity of what you need to follow as there is progression up the hexagram. Is it not something like following your base instincts at the lower lines with following of a higher spiritual ideal at the higher lines.?

By the time you have matured to line 6 maybe you are a king and the sacrifice that you have to make is taking you to higher places.

Mike

Yes I see thanks. FWIW in practise I associate the line with some sadness, leaving what one followed. Maybe thats the sacrifice, like losing a teacher you were attached to. Even though its time to move on for higher things you don't want to.

Actually when i was a little kid I recall being very upset each time i had to move up a class - I clung to the teacher who seemed quite happy to sacrifice my devotion, lol

[sparhawk]

Ah yes I forgot Dobro was on the path to the learned :D

Hey! Where's the bowing head next to that?? :D

[dobro]

Just thinking aloud really, maybe we are meant to identify with the king i just never saw it that way before.

I don't think you're supposed to identify with the king any more than you're supposed to identify with the followers. But you're supposed to *include* the roles of both in your view of yourself and the situation. As monarch, you ARE the order-maker and decision-maker in your life. As follower, you ARE the force that follows and carries out orders. You are both. You have a lower and a higher self. When you are living correctly, the lower self follows the higher self. When you living the rather automatic life of the average self-centered person, the ego usurps the role of leader. It's my understanding that training and discipline are required to raise one's center of gravity from the lower to the higher. But both are parts of what you are, monarch and follower.

[trojan]

Hey! Where's the bowing head next to that?? :D

No I can't go that far in light of the fact Dobro nearly had a fan club a little while ago. Several females said they loved him in one thread, he promised printed t-shirts and everything and i wouldn't like the fame to go to his head.:mischief:

[trojan]

Dobro yeah I guess theres no reason to think we need identify with the king or the followers - I just always identified with the followers in my own readings - dunno why, innate lack of initiative perhaps, lol

[dobro]

No I can't go that far in light of the fact Dobro nearly had a fan club a little while ago. Several females said they loved him in one thread, he promised printed t-shirts and everything and i wouldn't like the fame to go to his head.:mischief:

Note to self: no teeshirt for Trojan this Christmas.

[my_key]

Looking for some inspiration I thought I'd go to a translation that I don't use very often - Richard Lynn/Wang Bi.

On 17 in general - "To deal with a time of Following in such a way that makes things go smoothly on a grand scale and allows for the fitting practice of constancy means that one is succesful at seizing the moment, and if one is successful at seizing the moment, the whole world will follow him"

Shades of living in the Now!!

Also with reference to Line 1 - Following should not be done to suit one's personal wishes, but it is one's personal wishes that should follow what is right and proper. Thus one's self control should have the capacity to change direction (i.e be able to handle different circumstances), but the course it follows must never violate what is right.

As such he sees Line 1 as equating to a little child and line 5 as a mature man in this journey of self ( no worry about being politically correct in his time then :)).
Line 5 is the end game. You have learnt how to sieze the moment and adapt your behaviour in all circumstances to what is right. So you have reached some sort of Sage status. People respect and follow the example you set and advice given.
( Obviously parallels to Dobro and his fan club :))

WIth referrence to Top Yin. He translates as " Seize him and bind him, then so tied up make him follow. Thus the king should use this opportunity to extend his prevalence to the western mountains".

17.6 -Top Yin (the dark interior of the self, the ego - my words) "occupying the position at the very top will not be a follower. It is because the Dao of Sui ( Following) at this point has already run it's complete course that Top Yin does not follow. This is why it has to be siezed and bound before it will follow" and " It is because Top Yin located in the western mountain, will not follow that "the king should use this opportunity to extend his prevalence to the western mountains".

So for the final step of the journey Mohammed really has to go to the mountain !!

In a round about way I think this says the same sort of thing as Dobro

You have a lower and a higher self. When you are living correctly, the lower self follows the higher self. When you living the rather automatic life of the average self-centered person, the ego usurps the role of leader.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to gain control of your ego and then to battle to worlds beyond. This posting will self destruct in 10 seconds.

Love and hugs

Mike


ps - Am I on the Christmas Tee-shirt List? :D;)

[dobro]

Line 5 is the end game. You have learnt how to sieze the moment and adapt your behaviour in all circumstances to what is right. So you have reached some sort of Sage status. People respect and follow the example you set and advice given.

ps - Am I on the Christmas Tee-shirt List? :D;)

Sorry - you get socks.

Just a note: I used 'high point' and 'endgame' as ways of describing a polarity that I see commonly in line 6's. Some line 6's seem to embody the highest example of the main idea of the hexagram, and those are the ones I call 'high point' line 6's. So, if you see line 5 as the epitome of following, then line 5 would be a high point, not endgame. And I can't think of any examples right now of line 5 being endgame. And endgame line 6 is one where the main idea or influence of the hexagram is fading or past; that's not what you're describing in your idea of line 5.

[charly]

Could it be that 17.6 has to do with catching things? ... "Embrace (cherish) it and relate with it. (Only) then follow and catch it. The king offers a sacrifice at the Western Mountain."
... it will apply to more than catching dinner, there are lots of things which have to be caught because they will not fall in your lap by themselves... Interesting is that one of the meanings of wei2 'catch' is netting.
I hope I am not disturbing anything...


LiSe:

You never disturb. Your version fits the best: «to give first for reciving later», clear parallelism with King's sacrifice, where he gives first to his ancestors seeking for to obtain another gift in turn.

At the begining, be gentle, at the end catch your prize.

The chinese text for 17.6:

拘 | ju1 | adhere / capture / restrain /
係 | xi4 | relation / to tie /
之 | zhi1 | him / her / it / 's /
乃 | nai3 | thus / so / therefore / then / only /
從 | cong2 | to follow / lax / unhurried /
維 | wei2 | to hold / to catch / netting / pattern / rule
之 | zhi1 | him / her / it / 's /
王 | wang2 | king
用 | yong4 | to use /
亨 | heng1 | sacrifice
于 | yu2 | at / to
西 | xi1 | west
山 | shan1 | mountain

Some curiosities:

拘: to capture, to catch, a hand and a little dog, take the dog?
係: to tie, a standing man and a thread, human relations, human bonds, to engage, tie the man?
維: to catch, to hold, little bird and thread (twisted string), catch the little bird?
用: to use, to apply, a quiver for arrows? a hand moved tool for piercing or for making fire?

Maybe «to take the dog», «to tie the man», «to trap the bird» are three variants for calling the same applied art of holding arrows, of piercing things, of making fire?

What did the King use to do at the West Mountain? It is the Holy Zhou Mountain or something earlier?

Line 6 is about going to guard yourself?

Yours,:bows:

Charly

[my_key]

Sorry - you get socks.


:hissy:

[martin]

I'm just dropping into this thread. I haven't read most of it so, like LiSe, I also hope I don't disturb anything (what's the matter with us Dutch nowadays, how come we are so polite all of a sudden? We conquered half the world once, destroyed the Spanish armada, bombed the hell out of the British, and so on and so on. How polite is that? What has happened to us? :confused:).

Line 6, the line of the 'sage' - I was wondering, according to the Sufi's (and perhaps others) there are 3 kinds of sages: the masters, the saints and the prophets.
The master masters life on earth and attains a degree of perfection in this. That fits more or less with Dobro's 'highpoint'. The perfect realisation of an idea.
The saint, on the other hand, has a different attitude to life on earth. He is involved in it because of his love but he doesn't seek to master or control it. His attitude is one of transcendence, letting go, renunciation. That fits with Dobro's 'endgame', I think.
Then we have the prophet who balances these two attitudes, that of the master and the saint. He lives very much in the world but is at the same time not of it.

Hazrat Inayat Khan expresses all this much better than I can do. This was written around 1920: http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/IX/IX_13.htm


Socks are okay. :)

[sparhawk]

I'm just dropping into this thread. I haven't read most of it so, like LiSe, I also hope I don't disturb anything (what's the matter with us Dutch nowadays, how come we are so polite all of a sudden? We conquered half the world once, destroyed the Spanish armada, bombed the hell out of the British, and so on and so on. How polite is that? What has happened to us? :confused:).


Extreme birth control and too much access to legal pot?? :D

[martin]

:rofl:

[dobro]

A follow-up note on 17.6 and 17 in general. "Discipline means 'to follow'," writes Warren Kenton. I never thought of 17 as any kind of discipline before, but more as emulation. But following as 'discipline' works. That would make it, not so much something that touches your heart and makes you want to follow it, but something that you're actually dedicated to and working on. If that's the case, then 17.6 would come across as the epitome of following, as unshakable dedication and discipline, to the point where the leading light of the whole process sacrifices on the Western Mountain. Epitome.

[my_key]

Hi Dobro
Discipl(ine) and Discipl(e) - Good connection. Never thought of it this way before either.
Guess I'm just not reading the right books.:brickwall:

Mike

[martin]

A follow-up note on 17.6 and 17 in general. "Discipline means 'to follow'," writes Warren Kenton. I never thought of 17 as any kind of discipline before, but more as emulation. But following as 'discipline' works. That would make it, not so much something that touches your heart and makes you want to follow it, but something that you're actually dedicated to and working on. If that's the case, then 17.6 would come across as the epitome of following, as unshakable dedication and discipline, to the point where the leading light of the whole process sacrifices on the Western Mountain. Epitome.

So, if you followed what I wrote earlier (either as a matter of discipline or because it touched your heart :D) 17.6 would be a 'master' line?

[dobro]

So, if you followed what I wrote earlier (either as a matter of discipline or because it touched your heart :D) 17.6 would be a 'master' line?

I'm not sure. I'm not expressing doubt about what you say, I just don't know. You're ascribing roles to the sixth line, and although I suppose you can do that, I'm not sure that the sixth line is always about a role. See, my view of the Yi is that it has the flexibility to apply to just about anybody who takes it seriously, no matter where on the evolutionary or spiritual scale they are. So, for somebody who's living a pretty mundane life and asking pretty mundane questions of the Yi, I don't think that line 6 really has much of a 'spiritual master' sort of meaning. In a case like that, I think you simply adapt the imagery of the line to the situation at hand AT THE LEVEL OF THE PERSON WHO'S ASKING THE QUESTION. You know, over in the other forum, there's that thread started by the woman who was asking about the possibility of a sexual relationship with her friend, and she drew Hex 50. I understand you when you keep trying to nudge the interpretation toward a more spiritual quadrant, but it's quite possible in my mind that the spiritual might have nothing to do with the situation that person is in. I have no idea what sort of person she is, but it's quite possible that she's neither ready for or interested in spiritual development. It's quite possible that in her case Hex 50 is a symbol for a purely physical meaning. Maybe along the lines of: "She's the Ting; he's the contents; he's transformed." The reason I'm going on about this is cuz I really do think the Yi adapts itself to the level of the person inquiring, and so no particular line can have the same meaning for every person who draws it. Right up until now, I've been telling people what I think their lines mean when they ask about it, but I'm starting to realize how second-hand my interpretations are when I really have no idea about the person asking the question. When I get it right, it probably just means that I'm interpreting for somebody who's more or less on the same wavelength, more of less the same sort of person in terms of understanding, as I am.

[martin]

Yes, levels, good point. But maybe it's not so difficult to translate 'master' and 'saint' to more mundane levels?

When I try to think more in general of a 'master type' I imagine energy going downward, towards the earth. And outward.
The emphasis is on realising something out there. And striving for a certain degree of control and perfection in this. Perfection in tennis, carpentry, whatever. Breathing out.
The energy of the 'saint type' (perhaps 'saint' is a somewhat confusing word here), on the other hand, goes upward and inward. The emphasis is on inner realisation, self controle, and so on. Breathing in.

Makes sense?

[dobro]

Yes, I think so. If we take the time to explain what we're talking about, sometimes actual communication occurs. What a concept.

[my_key]

Yes, levels, good point. But maybe it's not so difficult to translate 'master' and 'saint' to more mundane levels?

When I try to think more in general of a 'master type' I imagine energy going downward, towards the earth. And outward.
The emphasis is on realising something out there. And striving for a certain degree of controle and perfection in this. Perfection in tennis, carpentry, whatever. Breathing out.
The energy of the 'saint type' (perhaps 'saint' is a somewhat confusing word here), on the other hand, goes upward and inward. The emphasis is on inner realisation, self controle, and so on. Breathing in.

Makes sense?

Hi Martin
Some interesting thoughts on energy flow here for " masters" and "saints".
In your original post you also mentioned prophets along with masters and saints.
How do you see the energy flow for a prophet?

Mike

[dobro]

Hi Martin
Some interesting thoughts on energy flow here for " masters" and "saints".
In your original post you also mentioned prophets along with masters and saints.
How do you see the energy flow for a prophet?

Mike

Hi Mike

Maybe I can answer for Martin to a certain extent. He's drawing on the teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan, one of the Eastern sages who arrived and taught in the West in the previous century.

The master is a doer, a man of will, who rules and governs both the outer world and his/her inner self. But everything he/she does is done for the sake of spiritual advancement.

The saint is a person of heart, who operates through acceptance and generosity, love and beauty. "The happiness a saintly soul finds, through all the continual sacrifices that he makes as he goes through life, is in his will gradually becoming harmonized to the Will of God, so that God's Will and his will in time become one."

The prophet is a balance of the two which includes the bearing of a message for humanity. I'll quote Murshid at length, cuz it's instructive: "The way of the Prophet is a more balanced way, for in the life of the Prophet there is a balance of these two attributes - the power of attainment and the patience to resign to the Will of God... The work of the Prophet is not only his own spiritual attainment, but he has some certain service of great importance to perform... Therefore such service keeps the Prophet away from what his soul always craves for, and that is the solitude of the wilderness. He longs for one place, and he is put in another place. The soul who yearns constantly to fly away from the crowd is put, owing to his mission, in the very midst of the crowd... He must live in the world and not be of the world. However, it is the prophetic soul whose life's mission very often is to serve humanity in the time of its need, and it is the fulfillment of this service which makes him 'Rasul', the Messenger."

So if I understand the being of the Prophet correctly, it includes the high-level spiritual evolution that both the master and saint achieve, but there's also a message for mankind involved - so the scope is greater, and of more obvious importance to more people. I think of Ramana Maharshi as a saint, according to this classification. I think of Jesus as a Prophet. I'm not sure about an example of a master. Shiva, perhaps.

[dobro]

Yes, levels, good point. But maybe it's not so difficult to translate 'master' and 'saint' to more mundane levels?

When I try to think more in general of a 'master type' I imagine energy going downward, towards the earth. And outward.
The emphasis is on realising something out there. And striving for a certain degree of controle and perfection in this. Perfection in tennis, carpentry, whatever. Breathing out.
The energy of the 'saint type' (perhaps 'saint' is a somewhat confusing word here), on the other hand, goes upward and inward. The emphasis is on inner realisation, self controle, and so on. Breathing in.

Makes sense?

Rather than energy going in and up, or out and down, I see the energy of the saint and master as being different styles for the sake of personal evolution. My view of the saint and the master is that energy goes both in and up, down and out, in the lives of each, but it manifests in a different way. Pretty much in the same way that a man of action and a woman of finely tuned emotion will deal with life's opportunities and challenges in different ways and using a different skill set, but achieve something worthwhile nevertheless.

However, I see neither saint, master nor prophet in 17.6 necessarily. I see the king sacrificing for some sort of benefit, and whether that benefit is his own or the whole group's, I don't know. And whether the king in 17.6 represents the spiritual beings that HIK was talking about, or whether the king represents the ordinary ego of the average person, I don't know. 17.6 could be about mastery, surrender, or delivery of a message to the whole group. Or it could be about something as mundane as how to deal with the people who work for you in your office. I see the Yi as being flexibly able to reflect any of these scenarios in this line. Or something else, cuz I'm still not really sure what 17.6 means.

[martin]

Rather than energy going in and up, or out and down, I see the energy of the saint and master as being different styles for the sake of personal evolution. My view of the saint and the master is that energy goes both in and up, down and out, in the lives of each, but it manifests in a different way. Pretty much in the same way that a man of action and a woman of finely tuned emotion will deal with life's opportunities and challenges in different ways and using a different skill set, but achieve something worthwhile nevertheless.


I see. Of course, in the breathing analogy, it is a matter of emphasis. We all breath in AND out, but the master type (at least that's my idea, not sure if Hazrat would agree) focuses more on - or is more aware of - breathing out, the saint type on breathing in.

The prophet type, in this analogy, would be more aware of the cycle as a whole. Compared to the other types a 'prophet' is less onesided, has a wider awareness, and this could give him or her possibilities that the others don't have.
Again, not sure if Hazrat would agree.

[dobro]

I think you're right about the downward direction of energy in the master insofar as control always seems to be 'upper controls lower' as far as I can see. (Although if I understand things right, the lower does have a slight influence over the upper, in the same way that the moon does exert a gravitational pull on the earth even though the earth's effect on the moon is greater).

And the saint's strong suit seems to be a receptivity, so that would be oriented upward to a higher level - a higher level from which higher energy flows, a higher level to which the saint aspires to attain in terms of being.

No? Yes?

[martin]

Yes, I think so. Master types prefer to be on top of things, in a position of command. Saint types, on the other hand, are - as Hazrat puts it - 'ready to give in and to yield'.
The master 'comes from high', so to speak. The saint stays 'low'.

However, now that I think more about it I realize that my breathing analogy might be confusing. Because if you want to 'come from high' you first have to breath IN. And I think you can see in daily life that the 'dominant' types tend to emphasize inhaling. They try to make themselves 'big'. Sometimes to such an extent that their chest is permanently overexpanded. As if they don't dare to exhale because they are afraid that that would make them small and vulnerable.
The 'yielding' types tend to do the opposite.

So maybe forget that analogy. Hazrat also doesn't mention it, as far as I know. The idea of different energy directions in master and saint types seems to be okay though. Well, I hope so. :)

[dobro]

And I think you can see in daily life that the 'dominant' types tend to emphasize inhaling. They try to make themselves 'big'. Sometimes to such an extent that their chest is permanently overexpanded. As if they don't dare to exhale because they are afraid that that would make them small and vulnerable.
The 'yielding' types tend to do the opposite.

Yeah, and remember though that the 'master' types you're describing here are not masters at all - they're operating from the level of ego. I wouldn't even call them 'master types' because they are so lacking in real will. The real master (and the real saint) has already put the ego in its place, serving the higher self. The real master is one level above ego, and working on getting to the next level up from master.

Perhaps the levels can be described this way: ego level, real self level, higher self level. I see the master and the saint as having stabilized their being above that of the ego, at the level of the real self. And their aim is to go beyond even the real self to attain the higher self. Which is, if I understand it rightly from down here in my ego, a very 'selfless' self indeed lol.

[martin]

Are we still talking about line 6?
I would associate the real (authentic) self more with line 5. And also with line 2. The authenticity in line 2 is more instinctive, less conscious (of self), less self-reflective. Like the authenticity of a child.

In line 3 and 4 (if you see an 'upward' development in hexagrams), the process of maturing, becoming more self aware, and so on. From 2 to 5.
Distortions may occur here, we go off center, a false (sense of) self may develop, an 'ego'.

Line 1 and 6 are more or less outside the domain of self or self development. In line 1 there is no self yet or not much (what you find here are basic drives, desires, etc), while line 6 is past or beyond self development.

In line 6 a sage could appear (a real master or saint) but that is only a potential. So there are levels.
There are also level differences in the other lines. A high level line 5, for instance, would represent a rich, many sided, deep matured self, something like that.
High level line 3 and 4: some 'ego' may develop but it is transparent, aligned with the real self, not very far off.
Line 1: strong body, high basic vitality, 'good' genes?

:)

[dobro]

I don't mind ascribing line positions to levels of consciousness and being, as long as we don't confuse that with particular hexagrams and particular line meanings that anybody, irrespective of their own development, might draw.

Here's my take on it:

Line 6: sage, transcendent being, selfless consciousness. Ramana Maharshi.

Line 5: real Self, bridging upper and lower worlds, unified being, real will and detached consciousness. The boss, not the secretary. Adyashanti.

Line 4: the spiritual aspirant, on the path to Line 5; knows what he/she needs to get there, and is working on it. I get glimpses of this.

Line 3: the spiritual beginner, basically in a state of disaffection with life as we know it; knows that the ordinary goals of creature comforts, family, fame, fortune DO NOT SATISFY; looking around for something better. Me.

Line 2: ego; the 'secretary, not the boss'; everything is interpreted in terms of self/not-self; believes in time; conditioned self; either wants comfort or is ambitious for status and power; subscribes to social morality but kills in time of war. Look around you and inside you; it's seen everywhere.

Line 1: body consciousness, body emotions (fear, anger, lust)

Again, I want to emphasize that when you draw a line 1 in a hexagram, it doesn't mean this is a issue of the physical, or that you're being evolutionarily subhuman. The meaning is whatever that line says it is. 46.1, for instance, is really wonderful. But 46.1 can apply to anybody at any level of evolution, and it can apply to a physical issue, a psychological issue, or a spiritual issue. The Yi is flexible, and can apply to anything. What you and I are doing when we're using the hexagram structure as a model for spiritual mapping is something other than the Yi proper, I think. We're just dividing spiritual levels up according to six levels.

[martin]

I agree with what you say about the flexibility of the Yi. It doesn't make sense, in general, to interpret line 5 as 'true self', for instance. Depends on what you are looking at, through the lens of the hexagram structure. That could be anything, as long as it is possible, more or less, to break it up into six phases, levels, dimensions, whatever.

Are we not using the Yi proper, only the 'six'? I'm not sure. Of course we do use a bit more that just 'six' because every line position does have an inherent meaning in the Yi and we use that too.
But perhaps your 'Yi proper' refers to the Yi as an oracle?
I do think that there is an essential difference between the Yi as an oracle and the Yi as a collection of maps. The oracle may say something like 'stop it!' to me, for instance, and when it does that it's not throwing a map at me. It is not using descriptive language. The message is much more direct. And if I don't understand that I will misinterpret the message.


Interesting differences between our models. I link 'ego' to line 3 and 4. For you it's a line 2 issue.
It depends on how you define 'ego', I guess. I suppose you relate it more to egocentricity while I see it more as false self, not authentic.
And egocentricity can be authentic.
But line 2 represents a relatively undeveloped, 'primitive' self in both models. Raw diamond?

[dobro]

Interesting differences between our models. I link 'ego' to line 3 and 4. For you it's a line 2 issue.

I think that if you and I really compared notes, really found out how each of us was using the terms, that we'd probably agree with most of what the other thought.

It depends on how you define 'ego', I guess. I suppose you relate it more to egocentricity while I see it more as false self, not authentic. And egocentricity can be authentic.

I see the ego as the false self, the pretender, the 'I' that thinks and claims it's what I am, but isn't really. The ego has a function, but that role is to serve the real self. The problem is until you find the real self and until it takes up stable residency in your consciousness, you rely on the ego to run the show. Disaster.

But line 2 represents a relatively undeveloped, 'primitive' self in both models. Raw diamond?

I take lines 5 and 2 to be the executive pivots of the hexagram. Line 5 is the most common candidate for being the ruler of the hex, and line 2 is its 'agent in the field'. (I got that from Wilhelm, I think.) And that's exactly how I see the relationship between the ego (false self) and the real self.

[martin]

Ah yes, the 'leader in the midst of the host' (Legge) in hexagram 7.
In real life such a guy might have a big ego, and a very 'false' one at that. But in the context of hexagram 7 I see him more as someone who operates at gut level, sometimes basic survival level, and relies largely on instinct.
That is appropriate for an officer in the field. There is nothing inherently 'false' about it, I think. The alignment with line 5, the 'king', could be perfect, but the person in line 2 has a different job to do.

The unity or friendship in hexagram 13, where line 2 stands out as the only yin line, also seems 'gut level' (or belly level). The Yi talks about unity in the remote districts of the country. It is a practical, instinctive, down to earth kind of unity.
Nothing 'false' about it per se but it may be too limited, a 'we' opposed to a 'them'. Suspicious of strangers, people from other villages, or on a larger scale, from other countries.
So the raw diamond needs polishing. It's still a diamond though, a real authentic gem. You wouldn't throw it away as you would do with a fake diamond, made of glass. :)

[dobro]

No, you don't throw it away, because in the first place it's necessary, and in the second place, when it knows its place, it's useful.

But you develop another facility at a higher level of consciousness. I think Idries Shah called it developing a new 'organ of perception'. I don't think you develop the ego at all, see. I think you bring it into balance and teach it how to serve.

[martin]

Umm, I didn't say that the ego should be developed. Line 2 is NOT the ego in my view.
Words, words, words, they keep confusing us. :)

[dobro]

Ah, sorry. We were ahead when we were talking about line 6's. Let's get back on topic.

How about this one? 23.6. High point or endgame? The answer seems to be: Well, that all depends on who you are. For the noble one, stripping things down means he's carried along; for the ordinary guy, stripping away means he loses what he's got.

And yet, for me, the high point of 23 is line 5, not that yang at the top. The height of stripping away seems not to be the yang at the top, but the topmost yin of the stripping away process.

[martin]

And yet, for me, the high point of 23 is line 5, not that yang at the top. The height of stripping away seems not to be the yang at the top, but the topmost yin of the stripping away process.

It may be a high point of some kind but those fish in line 5 are no longer engaged in stripping, I think?
It sounds like they forgot about it and are having a party.

[trojan]

But the fish in 23.5 are dead I think, the ladies have them on a line ready to eat - still partying dead fish why not

58.6 ? is that highpoint or endgame - Karcher sees it in a positive light, others seems to see it as self indulgence, decadence and all that

[martin]

OMG, they are dead? :eek: Noooooooo, can't be.
I think they are very alive court ladies that do a belly dance for the sage. Or perhaps even, yes of course, a STRIPtease!

But let's ask Luis, he is an expert in these matters. :D

[sparhawk]

I think they are very alive court ladies that do a belly dance for the sage. Or perhaps even, yes of course, a STRIPtease!

But let's ask Luis, he is an expert in these matters. :D

Sorry, I ran out of single dollars... Come and visit Philadelphia and call me at the beginning of the month and we'll go together to Delilah's (http://www.delilahs.com/index_f.php)... :rofl:

[martin]

See Trojan, they are not dead, they are in Philadelphia, alive and kicking! :rofl:

[topal]

Just wanted to return ever so briefly to the enigmatic 17.6 as I had another reading on a question that still vexes me no end.

I was involved with an "esoteric/metaphysical" group shall we say, for many years and a very fine bunch of folks they are. Well, I suppose I wasn't quite ready for that level of inner work in the end. Not to that intensity. I tried, but no banana...That still creates some sorrow in me so hence the return to 17.6.

I do think there are many "tests" we set ourselves in life directly related to the idea of a spiritual "path" and 17 for me, is very much about this process of adaption, and service. What do we follow? Our heart our intellect? Religion? Science? A group? Our individuality? Lies or truth? Our ego or the soul?

I wasn't ready for that particular level of work and in that context; to fight the dragon of the ego you might say, though I certainly thought I was. Yet, I felt that they were, in a very real sense my spiritual family. So, still feeling a bit guilty and glum about my behaviour I asked if my deciding to leave this "network" was indicative of this failure? Was it a kind of "just desserts"? And in response was 17.6. just as it was eight months ago to a similar question.

I just wanted to say that Mike and Dobro are especially are very much on the ball with this one - in this experience anyhow. It is a sacrifice on the part of a follower that may well be extremely painful. There is shadow but there is light also in an ever-present paradox - but it fits. It is a sacrifice that may allow the real King, the Sage to emerge from the trials of following in a way that honours the path in a non-linear sense. In other words, the sacrifice may have been part of the plan all along, a loss that we kick against and indulgently mourn but we have to let the loss do it's job. Unpleasant but a much more real expression of the Sage energy which can be allowed to flow down from the mountain top. That "end game" is in actual fact, always a potential beginning.

So I obviously thought, if I could have done things differently and more honourably shall we say, and seen that my behaviour was "off" then could things have been different. Of course. But either way, the lesson - with or without loss - is still learned. In other words, if I had been able to SEE and take action and applied the knowledge I had from a strength of will, then this would have been a victory for the inner King. But because I could not then a sacrifice followed. The result can potentially be the same, not in terms of regaining what was lost (otherwise it would be a diluted sacrifice) but allowing the understanding of why there was a sacrifice and thus seeding the renewal of a truer beginning. So, there you have it...:)

Thank you for an excellent thread.

Topal

[topal]

Sorry, I ran out of single dollars... Come and visit Philadelphia and call me at the beginning of the month and we'll go together to Delilah's..

Now we know who that guy is on the corner table in a haze of neon cigar smoke and wad of dollar bills next to his steak tartar - or should that be meat and two veg? :D

Topal

[dobro]

No, no way. See, Luis is the *dancer*, not the gawker. He's the sorta guy who knows where the fun is and you