Memorizing the I Ching: 34. Ta Chuang / The Power of the Great

[sparhawk]

----- -----
----- ----- above CHêN THE AROUSING, THUNDER
--------------
--------------
-------------- below CH'IEN THE CREATIVE, HEAVEN
--------------


The great lines, that is, the light, strong lines, are powerful. Four light lines have entered the hexagram from below and are about to ascend higher. The upper trigram is Chên, the Arousing; the lower is ch'ien, the Creative. Ch'ien is strong, Chên produces movement. The union of movement and strength gives the meaning of THE POWER OF THE GREAT. The hexagram is linked with the second month (March-April).

THE JUDGMENT
THE POWER OF THE GREAT. Perseverance furthers.
The hexagram points to a time when inner worth mounts with great force and comes to power. But its strength has already passed beyond the median line, hence there is danger that one may rely entirely on one's own power and forget to ask what is right. There is danger too that, being intent on movement, we may not wait for the right time. Therefore the added statement that perseverance furthers. For that is truly great power which does not degenerate into mere force but remains inwardly united with the fundamental principles of right and of justice. When we understand this point--namely, that greatness and justice must be indissolubly united--we understand the true meaning of all that happens in heaven and on earth.



http://www.yitoons.com/yicards/yicard34.jpg

[dobro]

Surge. Readily available power.

I like the double meaning of 'Power of the Great'. First meaning: great power. Second meaning: the power of those who are great. (Which, if I understand things correctly, is the power that comes to and through those who have trained their egos to serve their higher self - the higher self, being without concerns of self/not-self and without concerns about time, naturally acts as a portal or gate for higher consciousness and power. The higher self is without the very things that make the ego the ego. And *that* is what makes it great. It leaves a very small, very light footprint wherever it goes. Just watching and harmonising with the higher power to the best of its ability.)

Martin will prefer the second idea, I think.

But what's the difference, do you think, between 34 and 1?

[sparhawk]

But what's the difference, do you think, between 34 and 1?


The upper trigram and/or the two upper lines, duh!! :rofl:

[trojan]

Yup Dobro is obsessed with hexagram one, he will try to introduce it to any thread by fair means or foul :rofl: actually one could say hes very 34ish about hexagram one, hes started at least two threads about it lately, he really wants to get to the bottom of it, determined no stone shall be unturned regarding hexagram one, nor any nuance of it hidden from his ram like determination to penetrate its mysteries.

[topal]

I've always seen 34 as kind of an invigorating energy that says there's that the sparks of 1 are igniting things and it's all systems go!

But then it can all fall flat if you don't think it through. So, the emphasis on directing the energy is super-important towards the connections that have been made (maybe from the strategic retreat of 33?) and now the electrical current is about to flow - throw that switch!

So the power of the intellect I think is indicated here in order that the horse of the emotions doesn't run away with all those reserves and end up going Phfffut! All that carefully brewing energy sent down the drain or beaten against the wall...Then I suppose it can indicate ego-inflation as well. In fact any extreme where the energy overflows and things run dry.

Overall though it's an inspiring hex I think.

Topal

[trojan]

My personal association with 34 is 'too much force' . All the lines are advising how you handle the amount of power you have at your disposal, if your're not careful you trample someone or hurt something or just get stuck .

[dobro]

Could the difference between 34 and 1 be that the power of 34 is more at your own disposal (hence a need for some kind of code or morality) but in the case of 1 the energy is coming from a higher level, and you're somewhere on the scale of 'leaf in the wind' to vessel or channel of it (you're not directing it, you're just part of it).

[topal]

Could the difference between 34 and 1 be that the power of 34 is more at your own disposal (hence a need for some kind of code or morality) but in the case of 1 the energy is coming from a higher level, and you're somewhere on the scale of 'leaf in the wind' to vessel or channel of it (you're not directing it, you're just part of it).

Yes, I see it a bit like that: 34 as more microcosmic while 1 is more macrocosmic. In other words, 34 is almost a subsidiary of 1 - outsourcing if you will :D 1 is Creativity with a big "C" tapping into the Universal source while 34 is quality of that creativity which will manifest in your life and will acted on according to your life path and personality forces.

1 Great power/Creativity rising up and "using you." 34: Great Power/Creativity manifesting and you "using it."

Topal

[dobro]

Yeah, okay, that's nice.

How come 43's not stronger than 34, then? It's got five yangs, not four.

Hey, I just had an idea. That yin at the top of 43 is the one that goes its own way, defining the main idea of 43. I know we're doing 34 and we have to go through eight hexagrams before we get to 43, but you'll thank me one day.

[maremaria]

:bag:What if we say that it has to do with the different character traits of Chen and Tui. Tui is about feelings . If we say that actions driven by emotions in 43 and actions driven by force in 34 ??????????:confused::bag:

(I’m obsessed with Tui these days and I see her everywhere ….. ):rolleyes:

Maria

[topal]

THE IMAGE

Thunder in heaven above:
The image of THE POWER OF THE GREAT.
Thus the superior man does not tread upon paths
That do not accord with established order.

Thunder--electrical energy--mounts upward in the spring. The direction of
this movement is in harmony with that of the movement of heaven. It is
therefore a movement in accord with heaven, producing great power.
However, true greatness depends on being in harmony with what is right.
Therefore in times of great power the superior man avoids doing anything
that is not in harmony with the established order.

[charly]

... different character traits of Chen and Tui. Tui is about feelings ... actions driven by force in 34...
María:

I believe you are right, action driven by force.

大da4: big / huge
壯zhuang4: strong / strenght / power
利li4: profit
貞zhen1: divinate / omen / persevere

Big power! Profitable omen!

The character 壯zhuang4 has half a tree at the left and warrior / scholar at the right, the shape of a big stick in the hand of a tall man → big power, the policiy of the big stick. It has its strenghts and its weaknesses, that's why the wish «Profitable omen». If you are going to apply force, you need it. Maybe Zhuang is the Force itself.

Maybe it reminds you the «Ace of Wands» from the Rider Tarot:

http://www.magicians-table.com/images/wands_cards/1wand.jpg
from: http://www.magicians-table.com/wands.html#AceofWands

The wands of tarot have always sprouts, like the half tree of zhuang. Living Force. Zhuang is most used for men, but also could be applied to women, powerful women.


Yours,

Charly

[getojack]

Da4 Zhuang4

http://getojack.drivehq.com/characters/da4.png (http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%A4%A7&submitButton1=Etymology) http://getojack.drivehq.com/characters/zhuang4.png (http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%A3%AF&submitButton1=Etymology)

http://getojack.drivehq.com/hexagrams/h34.gif

象曰‧雷在天上‧大壯‧君子以非禮弗履‧

[dobro]

Da4 Zhuang4

http://getojack.drivehq.com/characters/da4.png (http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%A4%A7&submitButton1=Etymology) http://getojack.drivehq.com/characters/zhuang4.png (http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%A3%AF&submitButton1=Etymology)

http://getojack.drivehq.com/hexagrams/h34.gif

象曰‧雷在天上‧大壯‧君子以非禮弗履‧

The ideogram is clearly of two guys and a cactus. The fatter guy is telling the skinny guy to put on some weight: "Be like the noble cactus, skinnybutt - stand boldly against the skyline!" Standing tall against the skyline like the noble cactus is the original meaning of 34.

[sparhawk]

The ideogram is clearly of two guys and a cactus. The fatter guy is telling the skinny guy to put on some weight: "Be like the noble cactus, skinnybutt - stand boldly against the skyline!" Standing tall against the skyline like the noble cactus is the original meaning of 34.

Ah..., being prickly and showing how to be a prick as a metaphor for 34... :D Hey, it works for me!! :rofl:

[charly]

The ideogram is clearly of two guys and a cactus. The fatter guy is telling the skinny guy to put on some weight: "Be like the noble cactus, skinnybutt - stand boldly against the skyline!" Standing tall against the skyline like the noble cactus is the original meaning of 34.
Hi Dobro:

Good finding, maybe that's the reason why chen/thunder is above tian/sky, there is also «from such a pole that splinter» (1), and what is a catus if not a pole planted in the soil, like a sweet potato (2).

The only difference is that this cactus has two arms for to implore a gift from the heaven (3)

I already saw this cactus somewhere, it is very close to 土 earth radical.

Yours,


Charly


________________________________
(1) «de tal palo tal astilla», from that father that son.
(2) «enterrar la batata», from my country slang.
(3) people say that a gift from Heaven is needed for getting a triplet, a good amount of luck.

[frank_r]

Hello everybody,

I had a little retreat, was in China for some weeks were I was on a study trip to see acupuncture in hospitals.
But life goes on and I see that Rosada is gone because of illness. I hope see will back soon. And recover from her illness.

But now 34 is started, and I saw already some interesting thoughts, I liked the cactus one. It's like the horns, mentioned a few times in 34.

In acupuncture 34 has to do with the large intestines, in the chinese clock it's 5 till 7 o clock in the morning. And the month march, where nature is develloping it's great force.
It's the time of spring of the coleur green, where we really can understand what green is.

In acupuncture the large intestine is part of metal, together with the lung. Metal has to do with contraction, there is a lot of yang force in metal. (the trigrams belonging to metal are heaven and lake). So metal has even more yang than fire. And only one yin line the top line of lake, so there is only some yin in heaven. On earth and in man self there is only yang.

The large intestine also knows which part we can use for ourselves and which part not. From which part we can build our fysical, mental and spiritual being. And which part in our food is waste. As being part of metal it is very sensitive, grief has to do with the element of metal.

34 is in that way the power of integrating all food(fysical, mental and spritual)
Knowing what is nutritious food and which is not, when you can integrate the clear parts with your being you know the Power of the Great.

[charly]

... some interesting thoughts, I liked the cactus one. It's like the horns, mentioned a few times in 34. In acupuncture 34 has to do with the large intestines ...
34 is in that way the power of integrating all food(fysical, mental and spritual)... the Power of the Great.
Hi, Frank:

Innards strenght (1), also much to do with yin forces. Earth force, I believe.

Here, in a cementery → earth as land of spirits, there is a God with the big wooden stick attribute, symbol of work over natural forces, the living stick (2):

http://culture.edu.tw/.upload/photo/DSCN0008.jpg
from: http://culture.edu.tw/history/smenu_photomenu.php?smenuid=87

Yours,


Charly

_________________________________
(1) In spanish «hacer de tripas corazón» is to pluck up one's courage.
(2) Maybe related to Luis' prickly affairs.

[sparhawk]

(2) Maybe related to Luis' prickly affairs.


Am I on 'Candid Camera'?? :D

[my_key]

Who was it that said "Peter, with great power comes great responsibility?"

THE IMAGE

Thunder in heaven above:
The image of THE POWER OF THE GREAT.
Thus the spiderman does not tread upon paths
That do not accord with established order.

Just a thought :rofl:


Mike

[rosada]

Greetings - I've been absent for awhile but am back home now with a working computer and the doctor's permission to use it. Thanks for all the your good wishes. Beyond health issues, I have also been absent due to time being totally devoted to getting Mom relocated into a new retirement home. The group here was focusing on the last three lines of 33. Retreat at this time and they were uncannily appropriate to what I was experiencing with Mom and the management at the old home. I think I'll rename "Retreat", Moving Out or Moving On. The lines perfectly discribed what we went through, the agony debating if we should leave her where she was, and the good feeling when we ultimately focused on the future and didn't look back.
I too see 34. The Power of the Great as having to do with situations where individuals hold power and the need to direct it in keeping with the Higher Power. When we toured different Assisted Living facilities to find a new home for Mom, it was obvious that we had the Power (the homes wanted our business) and we had to be concious not to expect more than was reasonable. That is, some of the homes promised they would do more for Mom than they really were equipt to do. We went with the home whose promises seemed more reasonable.

[charly]

... am back home now ...
Hi, Rosada:

I congratulate you had come back home and you had turned to the forum.

I know by experience what are you speaking about. I'm shure you choose the best option for your mom.

I will post assap somee jokes about Wilhelm/Baynes to celebrate your return.

Meanwhile:

34.1



Nine at the beginning means:
Power in the toes.
Continuing brings misfortune.
This is certainly true.


The toes are in the lowest place and are ready to advance. So likewise great power in lowly station is inclined to effect advance by force. This, if carried further, would certainly lead to misfortune, and therefore by way of advice a warning is added.
W/B

Power in the toes, maybe the needed strenght for to make the firsts steps or for to be alert.

To be alert: this reminds me a prairie-dog standing in his toes and looking in all directions searching for all sort of signs from predators.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/kids/wild_things/images/prairiedog_town.gif
From: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/kids/fun_stuff/arts_and_crafts/panhandle_4prairie_dog_town.phtml

See the little guy standing in his toes at the «listening chamber»: power in the toes.


Prairie dogs, those little pups popping in and out of holes on vacant lots and rural rangeland, are talking up a storm. They have different "words'' for tall human in yellow shirt, short human in green shirt, coyote, deer, red-tailed hawk and many other creatures.
From: http://www.livescience.com/animals/prairie_dogs_041206.html

Yours,

Charly

[dobro]

Hey, welcome back Rosada. :D

[my_key]

34.1 - You are starting to get itchy feet. You feel an attraction to try new/better things. But you do not necessarily have the maturity to cope with the first surges of greatness and there is a grave likelihood that you will fall off the path.
To continue Charly's theme - the young prarie dog (shall we call him Peter?) has come out of the sleeping chamber and is in the listening chamber, not only listening, but receiving all sort of sensory inputs. What he senses tells him the world outside is good and he feels ready to go get some more nourishment. ( What do prarie dogs eat?). He has the confidence of youth and doesn't know that it's a big bad world out there. Mr Wolf is lying quietly behind that clump of grass in the top left hand corner of the picture. Our young prarie dog is full of the joys of spring and is missing / oblivious to the danger signs coming in to him. Wise old prarie dog has seen the danger outside and is coming back into teh burrow. Unfortunately our pup is too busy listening and misses the visual clue. So our pup puts on his red riding hood and ventures out of the burrow. There are a bunch of other prarie dogs (collective noun may be wrong here) just back from the Christmas pantomime still crying out "He's behind you" but our hero doesn't hear and carries on regardless looking for and sniffing out his food source. Oh dear - continuing brings misfortune.

Love and hugs

Mike

[rosada]

Thanks guys, it's good - wonderful! - to be back.

Here's something weird:
We no sooner had Mom situated in her new home than she fell and twisted her ankle. I see now it sure seems to fit with "Power in the toes". With "the confidence of youth" I'd taken her out for her first walk around the new block, she dropped a kleenx and when she bent over to pick it up she lost her balance, fell, scraped her ankle, banged her head, 911, fire engines, police, emergency room, X-rays, 3hours later released thank God with no broken bones. She was tired to begin with, I should never have taken her out and I sure should have kept a hold of her arm. If I ever get this line as a prediction I will remember Mike's interpretation, "The confidence of youth not knowing it's a big bad world out there."

[maremaria]

Rosada, wellcome back.

“ Power in the toes “ reminds me the Hare in Aesop’s fable “The Tortoise and the Hare” In our country we use the expression “s/he runs like a hare for someone who runs very fast”

In this fable there is a race between the tortoise and the hare. The later is very confident about his power thus when he achieves to left the tortoise behind he decides to take a nap and then continue the race. But Surprise !!!! When he wakes up the tortoise has already finished the race. The slow-moving tortoise won the fast-moving hare. The main moral of this story is slow and steady one can reach his/hers goal (another hex maybe :rolleyes:) but if we isolate the story of the Hare we see, imo, that even he had the power to win the game , he didn’t use it in a proper way so he lost the race. I see 34 as “ caution !!! you may have power but this is not what its makes you Great”
The hare had all the power the race required but he was a Fool not a Great !!!!!

Maria

[trojan]

Thats a good one for 34.1 Maria :)

welcome back Rosada :)

[maremaria]

Thats a good one for 34.1 Maria :)



Thanks , but don't tell that to my school teacher !!! We telling her "what the use of studying those things ? " :rolleyes:

[rosada]

Nine in the second place means:
Perseverance brings good fortune.

The premise here is that the gates to success are beginning to open. Resistance gives way and we forge ahead. This is the point at which, only too easily, we become the prey of exuberant self-confidence. This is why the oracle says that perseverance (i.e. perseverance in inner equilibrium, without excessive use of power) brings good fortune.

[rosada]

"We become the prey of exuberant self-confidence," is an interesting way of defining this experience. It seems to fit Debono's situation. He posted he received this line as part of a responce to his question concerning a relationship. It seems his friend called him in tears and gave him an ultimatum - either they marry or they end the friendship. That seemed a very peculiar thing for the girl to do, but when you consider that the energies had built to this fevered pitch it makes perfect sence. Certainly this would have been a time when being able to use The I Ching to steer conversation could have been helpful, as in, "Gee honey, I think you're having a 34.2 crisis. Can we take a deep breath, calm down and persever?"

[sparhawk]

A belated welcome back, Rosada!! :)

[rosada]

Thank you, Luis! How kind of you to say so!

[rosada]

Nine in the third place means:
The inferior man works through power.
The superior man does not act thus.
To continue is dangerous.
A goat butts against a hedge
And gets his horns entangled.

Making a boast of power leads to entanglements, just as a goat entangles its horns when it butts against a hedge. Whereas an inferior man revels in power when he comes into possession of it, the superior man never makes this mistake. He is conscious at all times of the dangers of pushing ahead regardless of circumstances, and therefore renounces in good time the empty display of force.

[rosada]

I'm thinking this could refer to
A Truly Stupid Idea.

Like , if a person is feeling sort of confident, like they know what the Big Picture is, this line says you still can't force it, ya gotta
Let Reality Emerge.

[charly]

Nine in the third place means:
The inferior man works through power.
The superior man does not act thus.
To continue is dangerous.
A goat butts against a hedge
And gets his horns entangled.

Rosada:

Chinese text, W/B version and from another sources:

小xiao3 人ren2: inferior man (W/B) / Small-People
用yong4: works (W/B) / uses , applies
壯zhuang4: power (W/B) / strengt, force

君jun1 子zi3: superior man (W/B) / Noble-Young
用yong4: act (W/B) / uses, applies
罔wang3: does not (W/B) / to deceive

貞zhen1: to continue (W/B) / to persevere, to divinate, omen
厲li4: dangerous (W/B) / hard, difficult

羝\di1羊yang2: goat (W/B) / ram [di is a billy goat, a male goat and yang is a lamb]
觸chu4: butts against (W/B) / knock against
藩fan1: hedge (W/B) / fence [hedge → a living obstacle, fence → circular palisade]

羸lei2: gets entangled (W/B) / entangled, lean, weak [weaken → excessive for a lamb]
其qi2: his (W/B) / his, its
角jiao3: horns (W/B) / horn, horn-shaped [can be singular only a horn or something like a horn]

Maybe closer to the chinese text:

While force (maybe numerical force) is mainly applied by Small People, strategy (trick, deceive) is mainly applied by Noble Youngs.

To choose between force and strategy is presumable a hard matter.

When the ram uses force, the environment weaken his horn, he becomes like a small lamb.

W/B warning us: do not «pushing ahead regardless of circumstances»

Yours,

Charly

[rosada]

Fooling around a bit..I'm seeing 34 as being about Intention, and the importance of not forcing one's desires, but rather about focusing on a goal and then not giving up.

34.
The Power of Intention
You can do anything you set your mind to.
Just don't give up,
And don't act weird.

34.1
In the beginning we're filled with enthusiasm
But we don't know the territory,
What unseen energies oppose our own.
Careful, a false step now will set the tone
For along time to come.

34.2
Good, we're still here
But that doesn't mean we've won,
Or tell how things will Turn Out.
Patience, patience.

34.3
Oh! It's tempting to offer bribes
Or boast or bluff,
Or Do Something to make it HAPPEN.

34.4
Better to just
Keep on
Keeping on.

*Note we're now passing the Yang lines and entiring the relm of the Yin. It's as if living with Intention has gone on long enough that now the unformed universe will align on it's own with our inner intention.

34.5
The Universe no longer opposes.
Indeed, it rises up to greet us.

34.6
Coast awhile.

[rosada]

Trying to get a handle on 34. The Power of The Great I've gone back to looking at the trigram Ch'ien and particularly the first line of Ch'ien and examining what it means in combination with all eight of the trigrams. What emerges is a reacuring admonishment not to waste energy forcing things. By compariosn, previous hexagrams involving Ch'ien just sort of say take it easy and 34.1 becomes a dire warning.

My thinking...

Ch'ien first appears in hex1.

1.1
Hidden dragon. Do not act.

Here we get the streight advice,"It's too soon. Don't waste your energy. Don't try to force things. The time is not yet ripe." Interesting 1.1 changes to 44. Temptation. So we're feeling tempted to force something, but we're advised to wait until temptation becomes clear guidance?

5.1
Waiting in the meadow.
It furthers one to abide in what endures.
No blame.

We are again cautioned against the premature use of strength and flat out told, "WAIT!" 5.1>48. We Wait and all is Well?

9.1
Return to the way.
How can there be blame in this?
Good fortune.

In 9.1 there seems to have been a bit of pressing forward - perhaps only the gentle sence that we are Waiting for something, which is slightly different from being simply totally focused in the Now - but this change of perception - from being here Now to Waiting - is so gentle that there has been no harm done, nothing to prevent us from moving from Waiting back to pure Being. 9.1> 57 thus the Wind blowing forward then back.

11.1
When ribbon grass is pulled up, the sod comes with it.
Each according to his kind.
Undertakings bring good fortune.

Here Ch'ien recognizes no man is an island. 11.1>46,When consciousness links with other like minded energies it leads to Pushing Upward, the direct rise from obscurity to power. No need for using force. Thus by simply Being we gain increased Awareness = Power.

(Interesting, this hexagram leads directly to 34 by way of line 4, that is,
11.4>34,
He flutters down, not boasting of his wealth,
Together with his neighbor,
Guiless and sincere.)

14.1
No relationship with what is harmful;
There is no blame in this.
If one remains concious of the difficulty,
One remains without blame.

Perhaps the most positive position for Ch'ien. Seems to promise that we're only required to stay conscious of the difficulties. No need to assume we know what to do, no need to waste energy trying to force anything. Just stay conscious and we'll evolve from 14.1 > 50!

26.1
Danger is at hand. It furthers one to desist.

Whoa, after all the gentle chats with Ch'ien we're now entering the relm of hardcore tell it like it is. 26.1 > 18 reads like a reprimand, "Look at the mess you're gonna make. If you try to DO anything You'll only have to clean it up." and it gets worse...

34.1
Power in the toes.
Continuing brings misfortune.
This is certainly true.

We're out of the classroom. This is a real world WARNING: Hold off! 34.1 > 32. Enduring. What you do now will set the tone for a long time and mistakes made now will not be so easily cleaned up.

43.1
Mighty in the forward-striding toes.
When one goes and is not equal to the task,
One makes a mistake.

Oh boy, does this read like a mother who's given up trying to control her rebellious teenager? He's going out the door. You can't stop him. Just one last warning, "Pleeese be careful, you don't know what you're getting yourself into and frankly it looks like it's going to be total disaster." 43.1 > 28. But hey, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

[martin]

Welcome back Rosada! :)
I was off line for a while because my computer died. Bought a new one, only to get entangled in the hedge of Vista. Why can't I use my compiler? Admin rights! Why does my program not write files?! Admin rights! Why is the harddisk spinning again? Installing security updates! Grmp! :brickwall:
These guys at Microsoft must have had a collective attack of paranoia when they made this.
But I have disabled most of the nonsense now. I still have my horns but the hedge or fence or whatever it is is gone. 34.4? :D

[rosada]

Hey, Martin!
:brickwall: is certainly the icon for 34.3! glad to hear the situation has evolved to 34.4.
I'm not quite ready to take up that line yet. I'm obsessing over Ch'ien one hexagram at a time. But if others want to move forward don't wait for me. I'll catch up in a day or two.

Meanwhile I'm now looking at how line 2 in Ch'ien manefests in the eight hexagrams. The pattern I'm seeing emerging is a sence that to make anything happen one's intention ought not be to MAKE something happen, to force change, but rather to connect with everything as it is in the NOW. When one is totally accepting of the way things are as they are, it seems that then any obstacles to the desired change dissolve because they are no longer conceptualized as obstacles.

Rats. Have to stop now. To Be Continued.

[rosada]

Okay, back to studying the first trigram in Ta Chuang / The Power of the Great.

Line one of Ch'ien seems to be about all the variations of holding off from acting before the time is ripe.

Line two gives an ample reward with a sence of expanded awareness...

1.2
Dragon appearing in the field.
It furthers one to see the great man.

By not announcing one's own intentions but by simply waiting and watching, someone on your same wave length comes into focus, someone a bit a head of you so you don't have to do all the work alone. 1.2 > 13 Fellowship. Simply hitch your wagon to this star.

5.2
Waiting on the sand.
There is some gossip.
The end brings good fortune.

When one dragon stands out, the others don't simply disappear. When one idea seems best, alternatives still attract our attention. No need to argue or debate, simply stay focused on your path. The doubts will calm down. 5.2 > 63. After Completion. Wonderful. Keep your eye on your goal, don't give power to negative thinking and BING your vision manefests, just sweep up the dust. I think of the sculpter who was asked, "How do you carve an elephant?" his reply, "Just get a block and chip everything away that is not an elephant."

9.2
He allows himself to be drawn into returning.

Thus far our consciousness has conceived an awareness of what we would like to experience, but has also realized that nothing can be gained through force. By patiently watching and waiting we have recognized others who share our motivations, but now also recognized the presence of energies working at cross purposes. That is, at first we could only see why our idea would work, now we are getting strong enough to recognize why it might not, what are the obstacles. By aligning our energies with others moving in the same direction, who see things our way, we expand our awareness, gain confidence. Now one can ask something along the lines of, "If this is such a great idea, what's stopping it from happening?" and now recognize important obstacles not recognized before. 9.2 > 61. Does this mean we'll see the obstacles that arise from within ourselves? Kinda like the group here assuring me, You can go to Ecuador if you want to, but now, are you sure you really want to?

11.2
Bearing with the uncultured in gentleness,
Fording the river with resolution,
Not neglecting what is distant,
Not regarding one's companions:
Thus one may manage to walk in the middle.

Here we have a beautiful thought on how to be a team player. No longer looking for just one's own advantage, we realize we are connected to a group and until the group is able to move forward we will only experience rebuff. I get an image of trying to squeeze into a tight dress. You might be able to get it over your head, but what about your hips? 11.2 > 33. Better Retreat until you spot a larger size..Or maybe a better example would be wanting to move. You can carry your suitcase but the rest of the family has to move their things too. It might be best to hold off until you find a....

14.2
A big wagon for loading.
One may undertake something.
No blame.

Now we have a wonderful feeling of all the power, all the intention, all the awareness of Ch'ien being focused in the same direction. Everybody, every thought consciously choosing to work together. 14 > 30, Voluntary compliance.

26.4
The axletrees are taken from the wagon.

You might have expected that at this point there would be a sence of moving forward, but just the opposite. The first sence of team effort is one of complete agreement NOT to move forward. I think this translates to meaning when wanting to make changes it is wise to first consider what is working as things are. 26.2 > 22.Grace. I think of the phrase, "What ever IS, is best." Consider how the world is in balance and harmony with things as they are.

34.2
Perseverance brings good fortune.

Looking at this line without considering the other manefestations of Ch'ien's second position can give the impression that one is being given the go ahead with their intentions. However, when we consider what line two has meant in other hexagrams of Ch'ien it becomes obvious that Ch'ien's second position is about strengthening connections, stopping, stabilizing, but not making changes. Thus in 34.2 "Perseverance" doesn't mean "Go ahead with YOUR plans," but rather, "Continue being calm and aware of what other people are planning." 34.2 > 55. Abundance. Does this change line mean at this point things are going to beome obvilus without you having to do much of anything?

43.2
A cry of alarm. Arms at evening and at night.
Fear nothing.

READINESS is everything! If reason triumphs, the passions withdraw of themselves.
All through this examination of line two I'm seeing that at this time it's all about being aware of what's going on around you. If one can keep from being swept along by passion, REASON will find a way.
43.2 > 49. Revolution. On your own day you are believed. Supreme success, Furthering through perseverance. Remorse disappears.

I like that line, "On your own day you are believed." and the further comment, "Thus the superior man sets the calendar in order and makes the seasons clear." Like, if you're going to be believed on your own day, best you find out what that day is!

[rosada]

Well I'm afraid I have created a big roadblock here and I must complete my trigram study project before this thread moves forward. Hows that for an example of 34.3, getting ones horns entangled?

Okay looking at all the possible permutations of line three in the trigram Ch'ien...

!.3
All day long the superior man is creatively active.
At nightfall his mind is still beset with cares.
Danger. No blame.

More and more I'm getting that Ch'ien is about that spark of life we each have and the trick of living our own life to the fullest without over stepping our boundries and imposing on anyone elses spark. Ultimately the goal seems to be to align with other sparks, but not overpower. And also, not to be overpowered. Anyway, 1.2 seems to be that moment of spotting someone, The Dragon, you would like to align with, the role model, and then 1.3 is about doing everything you can where you are with what you have to make that connection. Like, maybe you want to be a movie star when you grow up. 1.3 would encourage you to start putting on plays in your bedroom.

5.3
Waiting in the mud
Brings about the arrival of the enemy.

On the cusp of the trigram K'AN, The Abysmal, Ch'ien here certainly gives the sence of danger and the need for caution. I visualize that the eager enthusiast of 1.3 has so out shown his fellow classmates that now he's gotten their emnity. That is, Ch'ien cannot go beyond his rightful place, just as a student will not be promoted midsemester. So a star pupil must continue to be a part of the class, he must be careful not to make the other students look bad.

9.3
The spokes burst out of the wagon wheels.
Man and woman roll their eyes.

Line 3 is all about being at the cusp of the upper hexagram. It's the trickiest position. Here in The Taming Power of the Small, the power of Ch'ien is particularly difficult. It's as if in hex 1 and 5 the power is expanding but it is the nature of energy to travel or something, so the one who had the power before no longer has it. Now the power is with the weak. I don't know, having a hard time grasping this idea. But anyway, 9.3 changes to 57. the gentle wind that blows one way and then another, suggesting that what goes up comes down. I think the main point for Ch'ien here is that we're seeing things change and we can't assume that things will always go in the same direction.

11.3
No plain not followed by a slope
No going not followed by a return
He who remains persevering in danger
Is without blame.
Do not complain about this truth;
Enjoy the good fortune you still possess.

Well this seems to be the resolution to 9.3 I mean, 9.3 seems like a lot of arguing about the ups and downs of fate and PEACE here seems to be saying, yep, and that's just the way it is. 11.3 changes to 19, a very encouraging hexagram for saying if you can accept 11.3 you've really got it made.

14.3
A prince offers it to the Son of Heaven.
A petty man cannot do this.

Seems to be continuing the advice of how to handle power when you start to realize that personal power doesn't last. Maybe the Teacher's Pet is no longer interested in being the top student, but now really wants to help the teacher help the others become top students.

26.3
A good horse that follows others.
Awareness of danger,
With perseverance, furthers.
Practice chariot driving and armed defence daily.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

That line "A good horse that follows others" seems to be the real tip off to what Ch'ien line three is all about. The importance of being the best you can be, but still maintaining your position in the group. Then "Practie...daily." Somehow this is a situation where one can practice using their power without fear of reprocussions. Does the upper trigram, Ken, Keeping Still mean God or Karma is Keeping Still and you can try your moves, practice, without fear? 26.3 > 41 Decrease. A time for consciously learning to control one's power?

34.3
The inferior man works through power,
The superior man does not act thus.
To continue is dangerous.
A goat butts against a hedge
And gets his horns entangled.

Okay, so now we come to our hexagram of interest and hopefully now after having gone through all the lines leading up to this we can understand more easily why the goat is getting his horns entangled. Over and over the warning seems to be in Ch'ien line three to not proceed alone, or not to push rashly forward. To control one's Power Impulse. Line 34.3 seems to be the place where all this good advice and training is put to the test. And as the Upper trigram is Chen, shock, surprise, the arousing, it appears that no matter how carefully we prepare, there's always a surprise out there. 34.3 leads to 54. The dreaded Marrying Maiden, the symbol of the powerful hidden unconscious drives. The blind spot?

43.3
To be powerful in the checkbones
Brings misfortune.
The superior man is firmly resolved.
He walks alone and is caught in the rain.
He is bespattered,
And people murmur against him.
No blame.

Wilhelm calls this an ambiguous situation and this may discribe the whole problem for trigram Ch'ien. Ch'ien is power and energy, but the reality of life is that power and energy exist all over, and to know whether the energies surrounding us are for or against us can never be known or at least not for long. And thus the challenge to stay centered, to not say too much, to not over commit (power in the cheekbones brings misfortune) but at the same time to be true to one's own beliefs. At first this may cause difficulties, but 43.3 leads to 58, suggesting that ultimately we are understood and we join with friends. I think in practice this can also mean that the big surprise that got us so entangled in 34.3 maybe that we come to see that the other fellows viewpoint that we may have been in opposition to since 9.3 turns out to actually have merit. Or at least that if we can calm down and not insist on seeing things only from our own perspective,we can hear what the other fellow has to say and find a way out of stuck positions - without the use of force.
Ultimately, as in studying these lines it appears to me the I Ching is telling us that the "goal" in life and what one should be seeking is not some sort of superiority over others, but a sence of comradery, the 58.Joy of discussion and practice with friends.

[rosada]

34.4 Nine in the fourth place means:
Perseverance brings good fortune.
Remorse disappears.
The hedge opens; there is no entanglement.
Power depends on the axle of a big cart.

[martin]

Very interesting, Rosada! :)

It seems to me that line 3 of the heaven/ch'ien based hexagrams is always about finding some sort of balance between heaven and lake, the trigram that results when line 3 of heaven changes.

Lake is open, social, extravert, adaptive, supple, easy going, happy, fun seeking, and so on.
Heaven is closed (well, not so open), strong, determined, singleminded, powerful, etc.

Sometimes there is clearly too much heaven and the advice is to add some or a lot of lake to the soup. :stir: Sometimes it's a mix.
In 11.3, for example, the subject is advised to accept that things always change (lake is more open than heaven and because of that less stable and more changeable) and enjoy (lake!) the good fortune while it lasts.
But 'persevere' (in danger) is an aspect of heaven, so it seems that the Yi advises to hold on to heaven to a certain extent and try to find a balance between the two trigrams.

Something similar in 26.3. The subject follows others (the social aspect of lake) but 'awareness of danger' (in this case the 'danger' seems to come from lake, openness makes one more vulnerable) and the advice to practise chariot driving and armed defence. Again, hold on to heaven, remain strong.
'It furthers one to have somewhere to go' is also more like heaven, I think. Lake doesn't have a fixed purpose.

In every third line of the heaven based hexagrams the combination of heaven and lake plays out differently. It's fascinating.

[martin]

I see that you often looked at the relating hexagram, while I look more at the 'relating trigram'. Does that make a difference? Maybe not! :) But in any case, if line 1 of ch'ien changes it becomes wood, not one of the most active trigrams. Unless it's a gentle kind of action.
Often the advice is indeed 'do not act', but not always. Again a balancing, in this case between heaven and wood? Don't know yet, I hesitate, have to think about it more, like wood. :)

[rosada]

Ooooh, that is so cool, Martin. Looking at the relating trigram adds a whole 'nother level of understanding. So now one could consider the wood/wind element of every first line of all the Ch'ien hexagram, and next the fire element, Li, in all the second lines, and of course the Tui hidden in every third line changing Ch'ien hexagram. Hmmm, I'm a little burned out...nice if someone else out there has the enthusiasm to chart out what it all means.

[rosada]

It occurs to me that Ch'ien, the trigram known for Power, immediately becomes weak when there is a change in the first position. That is, when the very first bottom line changes, the trigram changes to Sun, the trigram known for being gentle, weak and undecided. So this may say something about hexagrams made up of Ch'ien at the bottom with a change in the first place. This may be a warning that we are not as strong, all knowing, all powerful as Ch'ien had us assuming.

1.1 > 44. Sun warning you are weaker than you realize, maybe a powerful unconscious urge - 44.Marrying Maiden - could sabotage you?
5.1 > 48. Patience. Take on too much and - 48 - the rope may break?
9.1 > 57 Your resolve is weak, you could be swept away by the next wind?
11.1 > 46 Acknowledging weakness encourages one to seek strength?
14.1 > 50. Wow, being aware of weakness, but not indulging in it, not focusing on negative thinking but being aware the possibilities, leads to The Caldron, Supreme good fortune?
26.1 > 18 I love how 26 seems to always just tell it streight. With a broken change line at the beginning of The Taming Power of the Great obviously the power ain't so great. Clean up your act, compose yourself. If your wishes were granted today you wouldn't want what you get - it would be a hex. 18 Mess.
34.1 > 32. Oh boy, major weakness revealed here.
43.1 > 28. Likewise here.

Anyway, I'm sure other sides and subleties of wind/wood can be found in the variations of Ch'ien, but I'm delighted to just recognize how much it's element of weakness informs the trigram. Really makes you realize that Ch'ien has to be careful not to be seen as bluffing or naive.

[charly]

... I look more at the 'relating trigram'... if line 1 of ch'ien changes it becomes wood, not one of the most active trigrams. Unless it's a gentle kind of action.
Often the advice is indeed 'do not act', but not always...
Martin:

The gentle isn't quit of strenght (1) the trigram >|| is not only wood, but also wind, elder daugther... As wood is living wood, like a tree, a branch, a root. As ruins prove meanwhile dead wood don't survive stone, living wood can destroy the tallest walls. Not inactive indeed but gentle penetrating like the wind, that can erosionate mountains.

The tree always begins like a sprout but can move rocks, fixes the sun energy.

http://www.eigotown.com/culture/tjapan/kanji/img/kanji04.gif
From: http://www.eigotown.com/culture/tjapan/kanji/kanji_p2.shtml

Yours,

Charly

______________________
(1) in spanish «lo cortés no quita lo valiente»

[martin]

Agree, Charly, wind/wood is strong, given time. And it is not really inactive, although it may seem so compared to thunder. Short term effects are small but if it endures it can move mountains. Something that 'Blitzkrieg' (lightning war) thunder may not be able to accomplish.

[charly]

Agree, Charly, wind/wood is strong, given time. And it is not really inactive, although it may seem so compared to thunder. Short term effects are small but if it endures it can move mountains. Something that 'Blitzkrieg' (lightning war) thunder may not be able to accomplish.
Hi, Martin:

Mao Zedong tells a story about ...
... an old man who lived in northern China long, long ago ... His house faced south and beyond his doorway stood the two great peaks, Taihang and Wangwu, obstructing the way. With great determination, he led his sons in digging up these mountains hoe in hand.

Another greybeard, known as the Wise Old Man, saw them and said derisively,
"How silly of you to do this! It is quite impossible for you to dig up these two huge mountains."

The Foolish Old Man replied,

"When I die my sons will carry on; when they die, there will be my grandsons and then their sons and grandsons, and so on to infinity. High as they are, the mountains cannot grow any higher and with every bit we dig, they will be that much lower. Why can't we clear them anyway?"

Having refuted the Wise Old Man's wrong view, he went on digging every day, unshaken in his conviction. God was moved by this, and he sent down two angels, who carried the mountains away on their backs.

Today, two big mountains lie like a dead weight on the Chinese people. One is imperialism, the other is feudalism. The Chinese Communist Party has long made up its mind to dig them up. We must persevere and work unceasingly, and we too, will touch God's heart. Our God is none other than the masses of the Chinese people. If they stand up and dig together with us, why can't these mountains be cleared away?

Mao Zedong (June 11, 1945)
From: http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/china/gov/speech.htm#The%20Foolish%20Old%20Man%20Who%20Remov ed%20the%20Mountains


A folktale once more told.

Yours,

Charly

[rosada]

Yes, with these insights now it seems inappropriate to translate wind/wood as some how being weak.

[rosada]

34.5
Six in the fifth place means:
Loses the goat with ease.
No remorse.

The goat is noted for hardness outwardly and weakness within. Now the situation is such that everything is easy; there is no more resistance. One can give up a belligerent, stubborn way of acting and will not have to regret it.

[dobro]

Mules are stubborn.

Goats are impulsive. (I take that from western astrology, which puts Aries at the head of the astrological year, and says that one of its main traits is impulsiveness.)

Didn't King Wen ever see a donkey? Dunno. Bet he saw lots of goats though.

[rosada]

Seems to me there is a lot of caution in 34 to not force things, to not need to be first. Aries - ruled by The Ram - is the sign of initiating things. So 34.5 can be remembered as the line that says giving up the Ram, the need to initiate.
Capricorn is ruled by the goat. Capricorn is known for insisting that things be done in a strict, by the rules fasion. Perhaps "giving up the goat" can remind us that here at 34.5 we no longer need to be so rule bound.

[dobro]

I think of initiating something as neutral - what you initiate can be positive or negative or neutral. But impulsiveness - acting immediately without reflection or restraint - is seen as negative by just about everybody who values wisdom.

It seems to me that the goats in the Yi are symbols of something weak and negative. That's why the stupid goat gets stuck in the hedge - impulsive butting. Why did the goat butt the hedge in the first place? It must either have been a very stupid goat, or the goat must have been trying to butt something else and missed and got stuck in the hedge. In either case, it was the impulsiveness that got it there, not stubbornness and not trying to start something.

But if you want to think of 34.5 as imaging freedom from stubbornness, that's okay too. You agree though that the goat symbolizes a negative trait, right?

[trojan]

I always associate 34 with the sign of aries and the problems and strengths of Aries are those in 34 ie on the positive side alot of energy,drive and initiative, on the more negative side, insensitivity, blindness to important detail. Thats how the goat/ram gets stuck, not because he is inherently stupid but because his impulse to get where he wants to go ooverides other important considerations and blinds him to better, easier ways of doing things.

In 34.5 I don't see the goat as symbolising a negative trait just a quality that is no longer needed in this situation - and thats good news it means things are getting easier. Sometimes this stubborn blinkered determination is good and necessary, but here theres just no need for it.


Ever stubbornly pushed a door that said "PULL" lol :brickwall:

[rosada]

If I ever get around to my painting my I Ching Mural, 34 will be an illustration of a dance club or a skating rink or some such area where people have to line up to get in, but once you're in the whole experience is geared to supporting free movement.

[my_key]

34.5 - Your inner being develops to a level it balances more with the negative aspects of your outer shell. It allows you to feel comfortable and at ease with yourself. You can be who you need to be, act how you need to act at any particular moment, without feeling uncomfortable or guilty. You have discovered you.

Spiderman comes back from his self imposed exile. His demons are vanquished. He can live with having to forego the pleasures of Mary Jane. Is able to live with his perceived guilt for the death of Uncle Ben. Can even put up with his tacky new nano -uniform. He accepts all.

Mike

[rosada]

I had assumed 34.5 to be a positive line but have come across several interpretations that point out difficulties. For example, from The Portable Dragon,

34.5 The man has lost his alertness and strength because of the ease of his situation.

From Ruling Lines,

34.5 Preconceived ideas and assumptions are clouding your thinking and obscuring the guidance of your higher wisdom and inner authority. (Actually, I think this sounds like it is discribing a condition that is just passing. The "Preconceived ideas and assumptions" could be the "goat" that we are now losing with ease.)

Hmm...neither of these interpretations take into account the promise, "No remorse." I would think "No remorse" means we can release our uptight attitudes safely, or that our preconceived ideas are NOT going to override our higher wisdom.

[my_key]

34.5 Preconceived ideas and assumptions are clouding your thinking and obscuring the guidance of your higher wisdom and inner authority.


Hi Rosada
This seems to link nicely with my earlier post.
When you ditch all your preconceived ideas ( or do they mean ideals?) then you can truely be yourself - by that I mean the persona who you were meant to be, not the one that you have become. In many respects you have come to terms with your shadow ( loses the goat with ease?).

You can be who you need to be, act how you need to act at any particular moment, without feeling uncomfortable or guilty. You have discovered you.



As a consequence of becoming the whole you, you have accepted the responsibility of the power of the great. You are able to accept yourself as you are - the good, the bad and the ugly - and how you feel you need to behave in any circumstance - the good, the bad and the ugly - and by being able to accept all of this as you being who you are, you have no need / desire to feel remorse.

That's my sort of take on 34.5.
I think Spiderman agrees;)

Love and Hugs

Mike

[rosada]

Thanks Mike. I like how you made sence of "No remorse."

[rosada]

Six at the top means:
A goat butts against a hedge.
It cannot go backward, it cannot go forward.
Nothing serves to further.
If one notes the difficulty, this brings good fortune.

If we venture too far we come to a deadlock, unable to advance or to retreat, and whatever we do merely serves to complicate things further. Such obstinacy leads to insuperable difficulties. But if, realizing the situation, we compose ourselves and decide not to continue, everything will right itself in time.

[dobro]

The time of Great Power is fading, so this sort of approach has a bad result. Turn on the lights, however, and awareness automatically! attracts good things. It's the mindless of the powerful approach, and not the power itself, that causes problems.

[rosada]

I think of information being given to us on an As Need to Know basis. 34.6 could be saying, you've gotten as far as you could on what you knew. Now it's time to be open to new understanding.

[dobro]

Yup. But the goat didn't get stuck in the hedge because he went too far, he got stuck in the hedge because he stupidly and impulsively butted the hedge. He got stuck because of a lack of restraint of impulse, not because he persevered in something. But 34.6 seems to be saying that as soon as that stupid goat stuck in the hedge stops and REFLECTS, the important thing happens - awareness, and good fortune.

[sparhawk]

Pffft! Is much simpler than that. The stupid goat got stuck in the hedge because it forgot it had horns. If you forget that there are things that can snag you in a situation, I thing that would give you some clues about this line. :D

[sparhawk]

Speaking of stuck goats, I just saw today's Dilbert cartoon :D

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2030557071204.gif

[rosada]

I see the whole theme of 34 as being about coming into a situation with more force than the situation requires, and the eventual smoothing of the ruffled feathers. like in 33 we have RETREATed from a situation that was not suitable - like going too far out on a limb - and now have fallen back into a position that is more in harmony with inner consciousness.

Example a soul 33.Retreats from earth and goes to heaven. At first he does not recognize he is totally in the right place and starts by trying to make a strong impression...

34.1
Upon arriving the soul announces they have arrived, how glad they are to be here, how ready they are to pitch in and help..blah, blah, blah. As nobody shares this particular vision of heaven, nobody knows what the heck they are talking about, and it takes awhile for these strong misguided first impressions to mellow out.

34.2
Soul is certain they are right to be in Heaven, but it sure seems like the angels don't know how to run the place.

34.3
Soul starts arguing that they have a right to be admitted, that they've paid their dues blah, blah, blah.

34.4
Soul realizes that nobody is objecting, they ARE in. Welcome to heaven.

34.5
Soul realizes that anybody who wants to be in heaven is automatically in. No outside restrictions are holding you back.

34.6
Soul realizes they may have some problems of their own that have been holding them back.

[rosada]

Love the cartoon, Luis!

[charly]

I see the whole theme of 34 as being about coming into a situation with more force than the situation requires...
Rosada:

You'r right. Sometimes the situation reaquires less strength that is thought at firsth. Who kows how to recognize it has a Great Strength indeed.

I believe that this hexagram is not all about male goats but also about female persuasion.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/img/wiar11.jpg
From: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob25.htm


34.6 Soul realizes they may have some problems of their own that have been holding them back.
To know beforehand his own limits is also a Great Strength.

Yours,

Charly

[rosada]

I have noticed that while we have been focusing on 34. I have been coming in contact - through books - with an unusual number of "powerful" people and more importantly, powerful ideas, culminating with Stephen Hawking's "A BRIEFER History of Time" which is really exciting if like me you didn't understand his first book. Here he explains the ideas in more detail and you really do get it. Not only are the ideas fascinating, but the fun of discovering you can understand them is a total self-confidence boost. But the culminating lift off for 34.Power of the Great has for me been discovering the David Wilcock websites. If you're interested in this sort of thing, check out projectcamelot.org for transcripts of a fascinating interview. This fellow has a lot to say about UFO's, 2012 and just the changes in human consciousness happening as we speak. Trippy!

[charly]

Six at the top means:
A goat butts against a hedge.
It cannot go backward, it cannot go forward.
Nothing serves to further.
If one notes the difficulty, this brings good fortune.

If we venture too far we come to a deadlock, unable to advance or to retreat, and whatever we do merely serves to complicate things further. Such obstinacy leads to insuperable difficulties. But if, realizing the situation, we compose ourselves and decide not to continue, everything will right itself in time.

The chinese text, W/B, other sources:

羝di1: goat / billy goat, ram
羊yang2: [omitted] / sheep, lamb, ram → male lamb / tall ram
觸chu4: butts against / to beta, to knock → knocks
藩fan1: a hedge / fence, hedge → the fence
不bu4: ... / no, not, negative prefix
能neng2: it cannot / can, may, capable, able → unable
退tui4: go backward / retreat → to retreat
不bu4: ... / negative prefix, not, no,
能neng2: it cannot / can, may, capable, able → unable
遂sui4: go forward / forthwith, → to advance
无wu2: Nothing / no, not, without, avoid → no
攸you1: serves / distant, far → much
利li4: to further / benefit, profit → profitable
艱jian1: If one notes the difficulty / hard ,difficult → hard
則ze2: [omitted] / expresses contrast with a previous sentence → but
吉ji2: this brings good fortune / lucky → lucky

Some differences with W/B:

Why a goat, why not a ram?
Why so negative: «Nothing serves to further» instead of «No much profitable»?
«If one notes the difficulty» , why this licence? why not «hard but lucky»?

Maybe because the Ram was taken as a Scape-Goat an innocent animal burdened with the blame of others. Thus why not a Ram, it is easily associated with lamb → Jesus.

Yours,

Charly

[charly]

... The stupid goat got stuck in the hedge because it forgot it had horns...
Hi, Luis:

1st.: Do you meant that the goat thought to beat the hedge with the naked head? Maybe you're speaking of another goat or of another head. Goat heads have horns and the goat knows it very well.

2nd.: why do you think the goat(1) is stupid? He is only an animal looking for his freedom with the means that have at hand (his horns). If the goat is alone, maybe he gets nothing beating the hedge, but if he gets to beat at the weak point he can break the hedge and become free.

If all the goats beat the hedge it is sure thet will break it and get freedom for all them.

3rd.: line 6 says «unable to retreat, unable to advance» do you think it is applied to the goat? It is applied to the hedge, that cannot neither retreat nor advance, the hedge that cannot react. When the goat weakens he can retreat, when the goat recover his strength he can advance. The goat is a maoist goat, like the old man and the mountain.

Tha's why the same line ends «hard but lucky», for the goat, of course.

Un abrazo,

Charly



________________________
(1) the character «billy goat» functions as adjective before «lamb/sheep» → Ram

[sparhawk]

1st.: Do you meant that the goat thought to beat the hedge with the naked head? Maybe you're speaking of another goat or of another head. Goat heads have horns and the goat knows it very well.

2nd.: why do you think the goat(1) is stupid? He is only an animal looking for his freedom with the means that have at hand (his horns). If the goat is alone, maybe he gets nothing beating the hedge, but if he gets to beat at the weak point he can break the hedge and become free.


Hola Charly,

Well, the line only speaks of 'one' goat, not of many that can attack the 'hedge' (1 a: a fence or boundary formed by a dense row of shrubs or low trees). Now, just picture the goat/ram, ramming against a dense hedge (pardon the redundancy). The horny head of the goat/ram will easily get through the first layer of foliage and branches but then it runs the risk of getting its horns stuck in it and unable to retreat and not having enough momentum to go through to the other side. Granted, there are many types of goats/rams and hedges, but, the image of a stuck goat/ram can be easily pictured. No goat will get stuck only by its ears, something more solid and unyielding is necessary for it to get stuck. The "stupid" adjective I used intended to be a humorous way to say that goats are stubborn in the pursue of their goals, even in the face of impossibility. :)

Un abrazo,

[charly]

...the line only speaks of 'one' goat, not of many that can attack the 'hedge'...
Luis:

The line speaks of Goat / Ram, it doesn't specify number, can be generic or it's uncertain if one or more. I know and undestand the image and I accepted it in the past. But now I believe that there are more than one way for undestand H.34 from the textual point of view.

... The "stupid" adjective I used intended to be a humorous way to say that goats are stubborn in the pursue of their goals, even in the face of impossibility...
Stubborn, why not persistent and resistant? It is the nature of the billy goat / ram to be so, it is his nature to fight for territory, supremacy and sexual opportunities.

People wanting to convince him not to pursue his goals maybe fears the possibility the hedge be broken. Interested advice given by the hedge (and goat / ram) owner.

What do you think about the 3rd. point?

Un abrazo,


Charly

[sparhawk]

Charly,

The line speaks of Goat / Ram, it doesn't specify number, can be generic or it's uncertain if one or more. I know and understand the image and I accepted it in the past. But now I believe that there are more than one way for undestand H.34 from the textual point of view.

There is no textual or contextual indication of plurality in the line, whatsoever, and even in the terse Chinese text of the received Yijing there are inflexed ways to indicate such a thing:

上六 羝羊觸藩。不能退。不能遂。旡攸利。艱則吉。
shang4 liu4 di1 yang2 chu4 fan1 bu4 neng2 tui4 bu4 neng2 sui4 wu2 you1 li4 jian1 ze2 ji2

Thus, we must assume it is referring to a singular goat/ram.

Now, I'm not trying to interpret the line as generic interpretations can box us and they should remain open and contextual to a given question. I'm trying to visualize the simple act of a goat/ram getting stuck in a fence, how that can happen, and the "possible" use of such a metaphor in interpretations, without actually interpreting anything. Just brainstorming here... :)

Stubborn, why not persistent and resistant? It is the nature of the billy goat / ram to be so, it is his nature to fight for territory, supremacy and sexual opportunities. We are splitting hairs but "persistent" works too, applied to a reasoning person, that is... In the context I'm thinking of, mindless stubbornness though, as in "unreasonably or perversely unyielding" according to one of the meanings of "stubborn," I believe applies better to an animal that has forsaken natural instinctual behavior and denotes an act whereby the subject "persists" in a course of action beyond the possibility of accomplishment. Mind you, a lot of us, "reasoning" humans, behave exactly the same... :rofl:


People wanting to convince him not to pursue his goals maybe fears the possibility the hedge be broken. Interested advice given by the hedge (and goat / ram) owner.

What do you think about the 3rd. point?
Now, just how do you, by using reasoning, convince a goat/ram of anything? :D Do you see where the metaphor of the goat/ram, being stuck or not, goes from here as applied to a situation depicted by this line? There is no reasoning with it... The only one that can get the goat/ram out of that bind is itself or by being forced out by something it cannot control but be hopelessly at its mercy and under its power (i.e. its owner) The owner of the goat/ram is not there to convince it of anything but to coerce and/or force it.

Un abrazo,

[charly]

...The owner of the goat/ram is not there to convince it of anything but to coerce and/or force it...

Oh, Luis:

Your commitment with the standard version is hard.

I'm thinking in the ZhuanZi turtle. ZhuangZi could think what if he was the turtle. Cann't you thik what if you were the goat? And if the goat were yours? You go to use cohersion? Why if good for you it's not good for the goat?

I think, as many authors, he is a ram, not a goat. If you have a ram is because you want a ram as he is, if not better get a sheep or la lamb.

That the hedge can be breached is sure (see line 4), it's not impossible.

I believe the key is in the name of the ram: 羝di1 羊yang2

di is billy goat, ram
yang is sheep, lamb, has no mystery, but what about di?

Di is «strongly male» (1), english associations «billy goat», «billy club»...

Di has two components, at the left sheep/ram, at the right resist, oppose, go against (also the phonetic part).

Whithout the stroke of the base it is 氏shi, man bowing the head as in reverence, see a bone character:
http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Oracle/J20000/j26600/j26661.gif
From Sears: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E6%B0%8F&submitButton1=Etymology

But with the stroke of the base it is 氐di, the seal character looks like an archer from infantry, with the feet in the soil:

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Seal/S00000/s09300/s09385.gif
From Sears: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E6%B0%90&submitButton1=Etymology

Thus 羝di1 is the sheep/lamb who resists, opposes, goes against → ram, the guy who bows the head and fight, the stubborn, men, we.

Rams are natural oppositors, people who resists (2), people who «makes his foot wide».

Don't you agree?

Un abrazo,

Charly
____________________
(1) «macho» in spanish, how do you say macho in english?
(2) «El que se tiene por hombre / Ande quiera hace pata ancha». José Hernández, Martín Fierro

[my_key]

(1) «macho» in spanish, how do you say macho in english?

RAMBO:rofl:

[charly]

RAMBO:rofl:
Good, Mike:

Synonym of gun (1), and you know what the gun means.

Yours,

Charly

________________________
(1)gun = 炮 bao, fire + bag !!!

[rosada]

I think it's interesting that while we have been forcusing on these last lines of 34 there has been a discussion going on over at Shared Readings concerning a person feeling betrayed when her married boyfriend called off the affair. The fact that he was breaking his wedding vows to be with her hadn't seemed so awful at the time, and it seems to me this could be an example of 34.5, "Loses the goat with ease, no remorse," a feeling that one is not required to live by society's rules. However, the man eventually left her and in a coldhearted fasion at that - the downside of living beyond the bounds of society's rules - even common curtesy is ignored. Now -34.6 like - the lady is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. If she forces things in any direction what so ever - demanding to see him or even refusing to see him - she only traps herself.
Guy Damian Knight says of this line, "If you realize your predicament and maintain a sence of inner harmony, the situation will untangle itself. You will be able to move forward again. Without inner composure, you will not be able to extricate yourself.
(Inner composure arises from a state of relaxation. This means not allowing external events and circumstances to create inner tensions.)"
So it seems we have a real life example here of 34.5 being, "You're in Heaven, you can do anything you want." and 34.6 being, "But you may not have the inner self discipline to handle living in a world of no restraints."

[sparhawk]

:D

Oh, Luis:

Your commitment with the standard version is hard.

The standard version, by some accounts, is perhaps close to 3000 years old... Bad habits die hard... :D

I'm thinking in the ZhuanZi turtle. ZhuangZi could think what if he was the turtle. Cann't you thik what if you were the goat? And if the goat were yours? You go to use cohersion? Why if good for you it's not good for the goat?


Coming from a country that raises and eats as much beef as my own, right next door to yours, you are too kind to livestock... :eek::D. Of course I would use coercion and/or force to get the ram/goat out of its troubles if it was mine! And if it doesn't cooperate, it'll end up spread over the hot coals... :mischief:

Is up to you, but, it occurs to me that if you continue thinking as a goat/ram, you'll be in trouble, specially if you are in a situation like the one described in 34.6... :rofl: In this case, I believe it is better to be the observer than the subject, and that, I also believe, is one of the morals of the line. It is the type of situation where one can learn from observation, or, more precisely, "visualization and projection," to avoid falling in the same quandary the subject of the line finds itself.

I think, as many authors, he is a ram, not a goat. If you have a ram is because you want a ram as he is, if not better get a sheep or la lamb.

I don't see much genetic difference between a ram and a goat, other than observing that rams are stronger, have thicker skulls and sport more impressive horns. And they both will ram you if you give them a chance... :D

That the hedge can be breached is sure (see line 4), it's not impossible.


We are discussing line 6... As they say in the stock market, "Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results..." :)



Thus 羝di1 is the sheep/lamb who resists, opposes, goes against → ram, the guy who bows the head and fight, the stubborn, men, we.

Rams are natural oppositors, people who resists (2), people who «makes his foot wide».

Don't you agree?


Yes, I do, and those were some of the attributes I was thinking about in my assessment.

And "macho" is already universal, no translation necessary. :D

Un abrazo,

[sparhawk]

and 34.6 being, "But you may not have the inner self discipline to handle living in a world of no restraints."

:D

[charly]

RAMBO:rofl:
Mike:

You make me think about a name for the goat/ram actor, some alternatives:

Rambo the Ram, always with a gun.
Billy the Goat, instead of billy goat
Billy the Lamb, when he was little


Maybe his name is William, aka Rambo, aka The Goat, aka The Ram, aka The Lamb...
the hero with thousand faces.

Yours,

Charly

[charly]

The standard version, by some accounts, is perhaps close to 3000 years old...
Luis:

My number don't reach 3.000, Confucius (551-479 BCE), many people thinks Confucius never used the Yi, the entanglement imagery arrive from Confucians, before Confucius maybe the story was about rulers and shepherds.

The character for entanglement could be read also as «to weaken» or as «excessive for a lamb», the ram is lost in the change (not in the ease), because the rule of change the lamb become tall ram, but the tall ram only can chage in something more weak, streght has a natural limit.

There are many stories out of the standard.


...Coming from a country that raises and eats as much beef as my own, right next door to yours, you are too kind to livestock...

You're alway thinking in the barbecue. It is said that «human nature is food and sex». Don't use coercion with the lamb, he still can lend you good services if alive. As Rosada says don't use too much force.

...if you continue thinking as a goat/ram, you'll be in trouble...
We are getting in trouble all the time, sometimes not for any fault of ours, but for the value of our furs, like foxes or panthers. I don't remember where I have read this. The wheel of fortune can turn and we could find ourselves fighting with the hedge like goats or rams.

Do you see, as me, the Martín Fierro's «pata ancha» in the old obstinate-lamb character?

Un abrazo,


Charly

[sparhawk]

Do you see, as me, the Martín Fierro's «pata ancha» in the old obstinate-lamb character?


Yes, I see it as making a stand. Very 'macho' point of view of not retreating from any fight. Actually cherishing the risks and dangers of a fight. Welcoming it. :)

En el peligro, ¡qué Cristos!
El corazón se me enancha,
Pues toda la tierra es cancha,
Y de eso naides se asombre:
El que se tiene por hombre
Ande quiere hace pata ancha.

[sparhawk]

Charly,

There was a recent thread on the CHF about the character for sheep (羊) that is very interesting. There is a lot of native Chinese people there that have very good insights into the language. Here: The Sheep is good (http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19895&st=0&p=4912395&#entry4912395) It is possible that you have to subscribe to the forum to read the thread. I use the same user name there, Sparhawk.

Un abrazo,

[my_key]

Mike:

You make me think about a name for the goat/ram actor, some alternatives:

Rambo the Ram, always with a gun.
Billy the Goat, instead of billy goat
Billy the Lamb, when he was little
Maybe his name is William, aka Rambo, aka The Goat, aka The Ram, aka The Lamb...
the hero with thousand faces.

Yours,

Charly

Charley

Billy the Lamb? Do you mean Billy the Kid ( i.e young goat).
Do you think William Bonney will turn in his grave if he thought he was being called a lamb?

There is also a magazine in the UK with a character called Billy the Fish....... now where does he fit into this?



Mike

[trojan]

Charley

Billy the Lamb? Do you mean Billy the Kid ( i.e young goat).
Do you think William Bonney will turn in his grave if he thought he was being called a lamb?

There is also a magazine in the UK with a character called Billy the Fish....... now where does he fit into this?

Mike

:rofl: Theres no way i can accept the goat in 34.6 as a lamb or a fish for that matter, a budgerigar maybe. Billy the budgerigar buts his head against the bars of his cage and gets his head stuck - silly billy !

[charly]

There was a recent thread on the CHF about the character for sheep (羊) that is very interesting... I use the same user name there, Sparhawk...
Thanks, very much, Luis:

I go to see the forum assap. Could you tell me why do you use «Sparhawk»? Maybe a sort of Hawk? Forgive the curiosity.

Un abrazo,

Charly

[sparhawk]

Thanks, very much, Luis:

I go to see the forum assap. Could you tell me why do you use «Sparhawk»? Maybe a sort of Hawk? Forgive the curiosity.



Hola Charly,

Ah, that's a long story... :D It is connected to my path to learning the English language. Actually, more than two years ago, I wrote something in my blog about it. Here: Sparhawk, o rompiendo barreras idiomáticas (http://www.sorocabana.net/bitacora/archivo/2005/03/sparhawk_o_romp.html)

Un abrazo,

[charly]

...Billy the Lamb? Do you mean Billy the Kid ( i.e young goat).
Do you think William Bonney will turn in his grave if he thought he was being called a lamb?
There is also a magazine in the UK with a character called Billy the Fish....... now where does he fit into this?
Mike:

All is clear.

1) Billy the Kid, a story about a kid that bears gun, who perhaps is turning in his grave.

2) Billy the Fish, a story of a kid born half human, half fish, human head in fish body, fishes are always turning in his water environment, this is a fish who turns in another environment, that has his passions and his goals, and use to enjoy good company, as you can see:

Billy The Fish Born half-man, half-fish, young Billy Thomson’s dream was to play in goal for Fu.... United. And that dream came true...
http://www.sendit.com/img/video/cover_big/front-sorted/7000000/09/70/16.jpg

From: http://www.sendit.com/video/item/7000000097016

3) If you thik that in english «Billy Club» is the policeman stick, all that Billies shares something in common, not only the name.

I have read that Billy de Fish had died and was replaced in the strip by his own son who is exactly like him. Thus Billy the Fish dies and rebirds like whoever hero, like the strenght of the ram.

You can add to the list → Billy... aka «The Fish»

Animals always means something deep hiden in our own inner nature.

Don't you agree?

Yours,

Charly

[charly]

... Billy the budgerigar buts his head against the bars of his cage and gets his head stuck - silly billy !
Trojan:

Good image for at least 3 reasons:

1) little birds: big strenght or obstination are not only for big animals, remember that small people used to apply force and that strategical strenght for small people is numeric superiority, like parrots.

2) budgerigars are love-birds and love is prone to be silly as far as to apply force.

3) etc.

Here is a couple:
http://www.parrot.org.hk/n_other/n_parrotprofile/LoveBird004.jpg
From: http://post.baidu.com/f?kz=205212703#sub

The huge revenues generated by wild parrots trades is driving many species of parrot to extinction. Many wild-caught parrots die during transportation / smuggling. Some may survive but their lives will not be the same. Most will have problems to adjust to a captive environment and develop behaviour problems. Both the keeper and the wild-caught parrots are losers and victims. Only the traders are winner, albeit very disgraceful. Moreover, due to the food-chain relationships of all species, the extinct of one species could have very serious domino effects.

Therefore, we must try our best to protect and save those endangered wild animals. Stopping the catching, smuggling and selling of wild-caught parrots is therefore our unmistakable goal.

Please Support Conservation, Help Save the Wild Parrots
http://www.parrot.org.hk/n_conservation/index.php


Even more:


鸚鵡對人類的認知
PARROTS & "BODY LANGUAGE"

Since humans and parrots don't start out speaking the same language, we must learn to interpret one another's intentions by observing “body language”. People rely heavily on words, but birds are naturally more adept at interpreting and communicating with postures. It’s not unusual for companion parrots to know more about what the people they live with say with their bodies than the people know about what the birds are saying with theirs.
http://www.parrot.org.hk/n_care/mattie/index.php


I think we can add to the list: ... aka The Lamb, aka The Parrot

And who is the Parrot? the guy who speaks with his body, also the girl who speaks with her body, apt for the two genres.

Yours,


Charly