Repeated 64

[clarissa]

What do you think the Yi is trying to tell me by continually giving me 64...static or with moving lines..when I ask about a particular issue? (My first question was, 'What do I need to know about this issue now?'. The answer was: 64)

This is the issue I asked about a few weeks ago and received 1->49 when I asked what I should do about it.

[jesed]

64.. a new age... a new begining... but you need: a) determination to leave the past in the past; b) clarity to discriminate all the elements interacting for a new situation; and c) act only when the time is correct to do it.

Seems that the "issue" is something that is over now; and you need to leave it behind your path, in order to open yourself to something new.

Best wishes

[lightofdarkness]

IMHO your a bit off track here Jesed. 64 covers the notions of (a) making mistakes and not completing and (b) avoiding closure, remaining open, intentionally 'not completing'.

The skeletal form is described by analogy to:

010101 (64)
100001 (27)
------
110100 (54)

What this indicates is an issue here with generic 54 and so on issues of general immaturity where for 64 the focus is on (a) not getting something 'right' and (b) on closing/completing too soon. (both reflected in the fox getting its tail wet - it makes a mistake in crossing, a mis-step, too 'confident' in closure, in completing the crossing, and so physical and mental get 'out of step')

As a hexagram of two trigrams 64 reads : with containment comes direction-setting.

OTOH 63 reads : with guidance comes control.

Trigrams in the top position reflect refinements of their natures when in a bottom position.

[lightofdarkness]

BTW - this makes 64 the skeletal form of 54 and covers the issues of closing too soon, immature actions but also exploiting that, to avoid closure, get more information and so move from expending energy 'immaturly' to being more mature - be it by choice or context forcing the issue.

[waveringdragon]

to me 64 is a little bit different from both of the above viewpoints, very often to me it represents an incomplete/unfinished situation, nearly always it calls for careful consideration of the situation, i always feel it is important to discern the factors that affect the situation and how they affect the situation, nearly always some adjustment to the situation is required to bring it to completion,
all the best,
paul

[bruce]

Yet another view, though I believe Chris covers it, is the "ah" moment, such as when beholding a beautiful sunset or a work of art which speaks to you, but you can't quite say why.

[bruce]

Yeh, Chris! 54 - out of your comfort zone, or your ability (or willingness) to bring closer.

[lightofdarkness]

Given the self-referencing of the IC (brought out especially well in the natural binary ordering such that the XOR-derived descriptions above stem directly from the universal IC 'free' of our local interaction) we can take the XOR pairs of 27-ness and form quartets that then form an octet (and so on into another 64 (32pair) sequence. The octet for 64-54 is:

((64<->54), (53<->63)),((29<->61), (62<->30))


Each reflects a qualitative aspect that is grouped with another pair to form a quartet and that in turn is grouped with another quartet etc etc

What all of this covers is the STRUCTURE of the hexagram meanings, not the methodology of 'random' derivation of those meanings.

Here is the full sequence of the 27-ness ordering of the IC where we XOR 27 with the binary sequence and so we have ordered these in binary sequence down the context column, from 000000 to 111111 (1/0 ordering left-to-right = bottom-to-top)

The 53->63 and 62->30 pairs are in the second octet below and 'opposed' by the 54->64 and 61->29 pairs in the 7th octet (the first four octets 'map' to the last four octets as reflections ('opposites').

archetype => context => expression

100001 => 000000 => 100001 (27=>02=>27)
100001 => 000001 => 100000 (27=>23=>24)
100001 => 000010 => 100011 (27=>08=>42)
100001 => 000011 => 100010 (27=>20=>03)
100001 => 000100 => 100101 (27=>16=>21)
100001 => 000101 => 100100 (27=>35=>51)
100001 => 000110 => 100111 (27=>35=>25)
100001 => 000111 => 100110 (27=>45=>17)

100001 => 001000 => 101001 (27=>15=>22)
100001 => 001001 => 101000 (27=>52=>36)
100001 => 001010 => 101011 (27=>39=>37)
100001 => 001011 => 101010 (27=>53=>63)
100001 => 001100 => 101101 (27=>62=>30)
100001 => 001101 => 101100 (27=>56=>55)
100001 => 001110 => 101111 (27=>31=>13)
100001 => 001111 => 101110 (27=>33=>49)

100001 => 010000 => 110001 (27=>07=>41)
100001 => 010001 => 110000 (27=>04=>19)
100001 => 010010 => 110011 (27=>29=>61)
100001 => 010011 => 110010 (27=>59=>60)
100001 => 010100 => 110101 (27=>40=>38)
100001 => 010101 => 110100 (27=>64=>54)
100001 => 010110 => 110111 (27=>47=>10)
100001 => 010111 => 110110 (27=>06=>38)

100001 => 011000 => 111001 (27=>46=>26)
100001 => 011001 => 111000 (27=>18=>11)
100001 => 011010 => 111011 (27=>48=>09)
100001 => 011011 => 111010 (27=>57=>05)
100001 => 011100 => 111101 (27=>32=>14)
100001 => 011101 => 111100 (27=>50=>34)
100001 => 011110 => 111111 (27=>28=>01)
100001 => 011111 => 111110 (27=>44=>43)

100001 => 100000 => 000001 (27=>24=>23)
100001 => 100001 => 000000 (27=>27=>02)
100001 => 100010 => 000011 (27=>03=>20)
100001 => 100011 => 000010 (27=>42=>08)
100001 => 100100 => 000101 (27=>51=>35)
100001 => 100101 => 000100 (27=>21=>16)
100001 => 100110 => 000111 (27=>17=>12)
100001 => 100111 => 000110 (27=>25=>45)

100001 => 101000 => 001001 (27=>36=>52)
100001 => 101001 => 001000 (27=>22=>15)
100001 => 101010 => 001011 (27=>63=>53)
100001 => 101011 => 001010 (27=>37=>39)
100001 => 101100 => 001101 (27=>55=>56)
100001 => 101101 => 001100 (27=>30=>62)
100001 => 101110 => 001111 (27=>49=>33)
100001 => 101111 => 001110 (27=>13=>31)

100001 => 110000 => 010001 (27=>19=>04)
100001 => 110001 => 010000 (27=>41=>07)
100001 => 110010 => 010011 (27=>60=>59)
100001 => 110011 => 010010 (27=>61=>29)
100001 => 110100 => 010101 (27=>54=>64)
100001 => 110101 => 010100 (27=>38=>40)
100001 => 110110 => 010111 (27=>58=>06)
100001 => 110111 => 010110 (27=>10=>47)

100001 => 111000 => 011001 (27=>11=>18)
100001 => 111001 => 011000 (27=>26=>46)
100001 => 111010 => 011011 (27=>05=>57)
100001 => 111011 => 011010 (27=>09=>48)
100001 => 111100 => 011101 (27=>34=>50)
100001 => 111101 => 011100 (27=>14=>32)
100001 => 111110 => 011111 (27=>43=>44)
100001 => 111111 => 011110 (27=>01=>28)



Chris.

[bruce]

Woops, I mean 'closure'.

[jesed]

So, you are saying that:
a) a New begining is not something "not completing" (Chris)?,
b) a new Begining is not something that is "remaining open"? (Chris)
c) a New Begining is only completing something (Chris), so, 64 is not a New Begining because 64 is not about complete something?
d) a new Beginging is not something incomplete/unfinished?(Waveringdragon)


I mean, I'm not saying that what Chris and Waveringdragon said about 64 is wrong.. what I'm saying is that wht they said don't contradict 64 as a new Begining.

Now, I think that what they don't seems to "fit" in my comment is about "leave something in the past" (are you understanding this sentence = to complete something? = something is finish?)

I try to explain better..

Had anyone wonder why AFTER CROSS THE RIVER arrive first than BEFORE CROSS THE RIVER in the pair secuence from "Heaven" to "Before completation"?

Why first is "After" and later arrive "Before"?

Doesn't the logic points in the other direction?
Fist you are like "before crossing" and then you are like "after crossing"?

This order in Yi Jing is Because 63 is about "after crossing" age A and 64 is about "before crossing" to start age B.
So, 63-64 pair is about a transition from age A to age B. But, you can get age B before you leave age A in your past.

So, when you are in 64, age A is alredy over, altough age B isn't arrive completely. That's why you need so much caution; and that's why you need leave past in the past.

If you try to go back from 64 to the past (63), you arrive to 63.6 (previous line in this secuence).

So, yes: you must not complete too soon age B (Chris), and the New age B is unfinished alredy ( Waveringdragon).

But the fisrt precaution is not go back to age A.. let past age A in the past.

Best wishes

[jesed]

ps
error in paragrah 8
It said: "But, you can get age B before you leave age A in your past."

It must say: "But, you can NOT get age B before you leave age A in your past."

sorry for this error

[martin]

I like the name that LiSe gives to hexagram 64: "Not yet across".
If I remember correctly Wilhelm calls this hexagram "hopeful" and that is the feeling that it gives me. Something is building up and it is not yet completed, but it can be completed.
Based on the trigrams 64 could be read as "from darkness into the light" or as "from confusion to clarity". Or as a process in which focus and coherence are increasing.

All very hopeful. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
Subjective? I guess we all write our own I Ching.

[jesed]

Hi Martin:

I agree with your sense of 64 as "hopeful" and something that is "building up".

There is only one thing I see diferent from you:
"Based on the trigrams 64 could be read as "from darkness into the light" or as "from confusion to clarity". "

Actually, any line and any trigram "came in" from the bottom, and "go out" from the top.

So, in 64 light and clarity (Li) is the one that is going; and danger (Kan) is coming. Li is the old and Kan is the new. Clarity is going, not achieved.

"from darkness into the light" describe well, on the other hand, 63: from stagnation (12) into Order (63)

[martin]

Ah, that's interesting Jesed. I read hexagrams bottom up, as a transition from the bottom to the top trigram. So the state or the situation that is depicted by the bottom trigram is going while the state/situation that corresponds to the top trigram is coming.
But maybe that is also subjective! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[jesed]

Well, again diferents levels:

a) when searching for calendaric time frame, inner trigram is when the time started, and outer trigram when it would end (in this specifyc technique, th "rule" is something like you do)
b) when searching for a subjective qualification: inner trigram is the thoughts and outer trigram is the actions
c) when serching for the "nature" of one person, inner trigram es Macrocosmical fate and outer trigram is microcosmical fate
d) when searchig for the personality of one person, inner trigram in temperament and outer trigram is character
e) when searching for an objective qualification, inner trigram is what is coming and outer trigram what is going.

Of course, One must not "believe" all this techniques just because someone say them.

So, confirm or disconfirm this techniques contrasting them with reality; http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Best wishes

[lightofdarkness]

From the perspective of the Universal I Ching and the emphasis on self-referencing, the hexagram AS A WHOLE is described by references to all of the other hexagrams.

The hexagram can also be broken down into trigrams, diagrams, or line analysis but in that process, we are moving from general to particular, raw to refined, beginning to ending etc etc etc such that there are qualitative differences between a trigram in lower vs the same trigram in upper. (see general comments on this dynamic in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/wavedicho.html as well as http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveInterpret.html )

To use the IC to extract the description of a hexagram you XOR the hexagram under review with each of the others to give an analogy used to describe. Thus, using hexagram 64 we XOR it with all of the other hexagrams to give us analogies about it.

For example, XOR with 27 gives us an analogy of 64s skeletal form, core infrastructure etc (here described by analogy to 54) The others are listed below in summary form. Note that the analogies are GENERAL, VAGUE, DIFFUSE, in that being universals they cover a wide area. WE then LOCALISE the meanings by grounding the hexagram in some local context and so the variations we see in personal descriptions.

As for 'new beginnings' etc, if we take 24 as a marker of beginning then that is expressed in 64 through analogy to 38. OTOH we could use 51 as the core sense of 'new' and get the 51-ness of 64 described by analogy to 41. etc etc

As for such notions as personalities etc that is covered in recursion of the MBTI categories that map to the same space as the I Ching and so we can use one to aid in fleshing out descriptions of the other. In the MBTI the hexagrams develop bottom to top and so each adding of a line gives finer resolution power. (e.g. see:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/mbti.html or the later http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/type.html


Chris.
========= hexagram 64s "Spectrum" ==============
00 :: (02) : What is this hexagrams's potential form? :: 64
01 :: (24) : How does this hexagram 'start', express 'beginning'? :: 38
02 :: (07) : How does this hexagram express uniformity, establishment of? :: 35
03 :: (19) : How does this hexagram express approaching the 'high'; defer to the 'low'? :: 21
04 :: (15) : How does this hexagram level things out, keep words close to facts? :: 50
05 :: (36) : How does this hexagram protect its 'light' when not its time? :: 14
06 :: (46) : How does this hexagram become more entangled with something/someone? :: 56
07 :: (11) : How does this hexagram balance/harmonise, mediate? :: 30
08 :: (16) : How does this hexagram express foresight/planning? :: 4
09 :: (51) : How does this hexagram express surprise, enlightenment, shock? :: 41
10 :: (40) : How does this hexagram express tension release through relaxing structure? :: 23
11 :: (54) : How does this hexagram expend early energy, imaturity? :: 27
12 :: (62) : How does this hexagram express overacting to establish unconditional loyalty? :: 18
13 :: (55) : How does this hexagram deal with abundance/overflowing? :: 26
14 :: (32) : How does this hexagram express commitment? :: 52
15 :: (34) : How does this hexagram actively invigorate others? :: 22
16 :: (08) : How does this hexagram passively attract? :: 6
17 :: (03) : How does this hexagram 'sprout'? :: 10
18 :: (29) : How does this hexagram assert containment/control? :: 12
19 :: (60) : How does this hexagram standardise? :: 25
20 :: (39) : How does this hexagram obstruct, go against, stand up to, the flow? :: 44
21 :: (63) : How does this hexagram complete, 'get it right'? :: 1
22 :: (48) : Where does this hexagram get its nutrition, what sustains it, keeps it going? :: 33
23 :: (05) : How does this hexagram wait for opportunity to come? :: 13
24 :: (45) : How does this hexagram celebrate its 'faith'? :: 59
25 :: (17) : How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? :: 61
26 :: (47) : How does this hexagram integrate with the context, be it by choice or otherwise? :: 20
27 :: (58) : How does this hexagram express itself intensely, self-reflect? :: 42
28 :: (31) : How does this hexagram 'woo', express restrained enticement? :: 57
29 :: (49) : How does this hexagram reveal, unmask? :: 9
30 :: (28) : How does this hexagram express excess, go beyond what is required? :: 53
31 :: (43) : How does this hexagram 'seed', spread the word? :: 37
32 :: (23) : How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat? :: 40
33 :: (27) : What is the basic, skelatal form of this hexagram, The mud from which it has emerged? :: 54
34 :: (04) : How does this hexagram learn social skills? :: 16
35 :: (41) : How does this hexagram achieve clarity, concentration, distillation? :: 51
36 :: (52) : How does this hexagram express blocking, discernment? :: 32
37 :: (22) : What does this hexagram look like, how does it present itself to the outside? :: 34
38 :: (18) : How does this hexagram correct corruption, express that correction? :: 62
39 :: (26) : How does this hexagram express 'holding firm' to traditions? :: 55
40 :: (35) : How does this hexagram bring something into the 'light'? :: 7
41 :: (21) : How does this hexagram resolve problems? :: 19
42 :: (64) : How does this hexagram remain 'open', mis-sequence? :: 2
43 :: (38) : How does this hexagram 'mirror', deal with opposition? :: 24
44 :: (56) : How does this hexagram demonstrate conditional loyalty; loyalty at a distance? :: 46
45 :: (30) : How does this hexagram express guidance/direction setting? :: 11
46 :: (50) : How does this hexagram express conversion of the raw to the cooked, transformation? :: 15
47 :: (14) : How does this hexagram manage from the centre? Direct operations? Push ideology? :: 36
48 :: (20) : How does this hexagram elicit admiration and so invigorate others passively? :: 47
49 :: (42) : How does this hexagram reflect augmentation? :: 58
50 :: (59) : How does this hexagram make things clear, dispell illusions? lift the fog? :: 45
51 :: (61) : How does this hexagram express empathy? yielding, soft core, hard exterior? :: 17
52 :: (53) : How does this hexagram express gradual development, maturity? :: 28
53 :: (37) : How does this hexagram reflect rigid structure as a form of tension release? :: 43
54 :: (57) : How does this hexagram cultivate and become influencial? :: 31
55 :: (09) : How does this hexagram express making small gains to be noticed? :: 49
56 :: (12) : How does this hexagram neutralise attacks on its core beliefs? :: 29
57 :: (25) : How does this hexagram stand up to say its piece, ignoring consequences, disentangle? :: 60
58 :: (06) : How does this hexagram compromise, meet half way? :: 8
59 :: (10) : How does this hexagram traverse a path carefully? :: 3
60 :: (33) : How does this hexagram draw-in its enemies, competitively entice? :: 48
61 :: (13) : How does this hexagram express association with the likeminded? :: 5
62 :: (44) : How does this hexagram persuade/seduce? :: 39
63 :: (01) : How does this hexagram express singlemindedness, competitiveness? :: 63

[jesed]

Hi Chris

In order to understand you well...

What is your direct answer to the question that started this post?
"What do you think the Yi is trying to tell me by continually giving me 64"

[lightofdarkness]

My response was not to the original question - it was to your interpretation of 64 - as is obvious if you read my post that immediately followss your initial response to Clarrisa - others then joined-in re the 'nature' of 64 and all else has followed ;-)

As for asking questions of the IC - see my perspective as covered in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusProact.html

OR

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusDilts.html

Chris.

[lightofdarkness]

BTW - in the context of 'groking' the universal aspects of 64 note how the 'beginning' analogy (24-ness) is to 38 and so a sense of opposition, either reactively or proactively, starts it off. This is 'vague' in that we are dealing with a general 'vibe' that then gets particularised by the local context.

The duality present in all hexagrams means we can, in the context of 64, experience issues with incorrect 'closure' (we get our tail wet etc, we mis-sequence) OR we intentionally DELAY closure; hold out for more information etc etc. and so avoid closure.

The GENERIC form, the 'waving of hands' level, of 64-ness is covered by analogy to 54 that covers both wasting of energy at the beginning (and so the sense of 'beginning' is present but from the analogy of 54, not 64 itself) as well as being forced to 'grow up' quickly due to circumstances outside of one's control.

All of these cover issues of mis-sequencing, not getting something 'right' or on intentionally avoiding closure. This feeds into the GENERIC form of 54 which is described by analogy to 64 where the sense of 'incompleteness' etc feeds the explicit form of 54 - 'immaturity'.

Once an archetype is 'started' so it has a particular path to follow to completion unless interrupted or suspended or 'dies'. From a GENERAL perspective all 64 states have a 'goal' but there in no guarantee each state will complete!

For details on the use of small network analysis to understand this, see my pages on history in the .pdf file:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/Vague.pdf

Chris.

[jesed]

Yes, i now that... but now I'm asking you if all your work CAN HELP Clarissa...

best wishes

[jesed]

Just to avoid misunderstandings (is funny how someone that give so much importance of the way whe derivate meanings missunderstand so easy what others mean):

I'm not interesting in an "abstract" or "speculative" use of Yi Jing... I'm interesting in use Yi Jing as a help to people.

If any knowledge of Yi Jing CANN'T end in a helping apllication to ordinary people (ordinary = not specialist people), then that knowledge is only an elitist 'mumbo jumbo' as you said (no mater if is a traditional, esoteric, academic or neuroscientist 'mumbo jumbo')

On the other hand.. if your words aren't to help people in concrete problems and doubts, but to probe your opinion... is ok (only I'm not interesting in following that)

Best wishes

[lightofdarkness]

I get the vibe from your comments so far that you seem to resent being 'corrected'! ;-) LOL! -

(1) I have no idea whether my work is helpful to Clarissa or not since I was not posting to her, I was posting to, IMHO, YOUR 'unhelpful' or 'misleading' or 'stretched' comments on 64.... and further conversation took place with others also focused on 64 (and no longer on Clarissa's particular issue) - I emphasised that we can now get the IC to tell us, to describe to us, what each hexagram 'means' as a direct understanding of its self-referencing abilities (discovered working on recursion and XOR etc)

(2) everything I write re the I Ching is helpful in that it gives a view of the I Ching as a universal and so a view of the 'bigger' picture that extends/transcends the 'traditional' perspectives.

In that 'helpfulness' is included material that shows how the IC can work profitably for all if used from a universal perspective and that includes recognising that:

(a) using the 'traditional' methods ANY hexagram will be found meaningful for a question but within that are the hexagrams sorted from best-fit to worst-fit. There is no guarantee of constently getting the 'best fit' nore being able to derive the complete order of the 64 hexagrams for the question. We can 'skew' the 'random/miracle' methods to bias yin or yang but that is still context-sensitive (in space and in time - e.g. yarrow stick bias to yin fits more the times of ancient china - these days we move into coins and on into a yang bias)

The WHOLE of the IC acts as a filter and operates as a WHOLE is perceived unconsciously - see comments etc in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/wavedicho.html

(b) through analysis of neurology etc we can map out how our brains derive and communicate meaning and in so doing identify methods to get the 'best fit' more consistantly than the traditional methods - as covered in the links I supplied earlier.

IOW the ICPlus material validates the properties and methods of the IC outside of its 'Western' interpretation of some esoteric, mystical, 'divination' tool - and at the same time brings out properties of the 'traditional' not covered, or weakly covered, in the current I Ching texts we have in the West (gets into my comments that 'they' had no idea what they were dealing with but did a good job in trying to identify what was going on)

To focus on Clarissa's "problem" I would suggest the use of the questions method to aid her and let us know what she gets in the context of her question - general probability is based on an infinite time span and so allows for repetitions of a hexagram by chance alone!

Note that the questions method favours identifying the CONTEXT and so what elements in that context will PUSH her (recognising that our instincts/habits reflect adaptations to context from the species-nature position, our primate-ness etc)

GIVEN the context hexagram we can XOR its details and see how it will develop regardless of our input. THEN comes the choices:

(a) adapt to the context by responding to its stimulus with the preferred response
OR
(b) try and assert one's own context to 'replace' the existing (more so 'overlay' the existing with one's own 'small world')
OR
(c) move on.

All the above three points reflect the possible actions of CONSCIOUSNESS in its role as mediator with the environment and so the ability to CHOOSE - even if general/limited ;-) (by knowing what is pushing you can adjust accordingly as well as pre-empt the push)


- and so ICPlus is all helpful and, with some effort, totally understandable and usable to the level of being revolutionary in our understanding of how 'divination' material has come about other than through 'ad hoc' methods of the ancients (and that included novel, local, labels etc that can serve to hide the nature of the underlying universals in their fullest form)

Chris.

[matt]

Chris! Can you clarify something for me please sir, you said;

"general probability is based on an infinite time span and so allows for repetitions of a hexagram by chance alone!"

Does this mean you acknowledge chance/coincidence over the existance of synchronisation?

And wow its cold here, England is having the 'big freeze' at the moment, coldest winter in years!

[bruce]

Hi Jesed,

Though I?ve found your contributions here to be interesting and helpful, I too must disagree with your assessment on this one: 64 as a new beginning. I follow your reasoning but for me, at least, it doesn?t hold up well.

As it relates to Clarissa?s repeated readings of 64, either the time has ?not yet? come to resolve the matter in question, or else the matter is to be accepted without trying to bring closure to it - such as when admiring a flower without the need to own it or explain it. Her will and even her paws may have already touched the other side, but not yet her tail, which is the last thing to cross. There is still an unrelatedness between her vision and her reality.

At least that?s how I see it.

[clarissa]

I'm going to toss something out for discussion...

There are two things going on in my life that are connected in a way: situation x and situation y.

A few days ago I asked what I should do about x. The Yi's answer was 33..no moving lines. When I later asked a related question about x...I received 33 again, but I can't remember the moving lines. It wasn't a good reading anyway.

At the same time I asked what I should do about y. The Yi's response was 1 -> 49...which I found puzzling. Was the 49 related to what was happening with x? I say that because there most definitely WAS a 49 going on with x. I retreated (33) from situation x and it appears to be very 49. That leave...situation y. Therefore, I asked what I needed to know right now about situation y. The Yi's first response was 64, no moving lines. I asked some related questions and also received 64..with moving lines. So, I'm wondering....

Does the repeated 64 regarding situation y signal a new beginning? I don't know...because 64 is one of those hexagram's that I really don't understand at all. Yes, I'm certainly 'not across' with situation y....but I wonder why the Yi seems to be shouting that at me.

Btw, I've also received 12.6 quite a few times regarding situation y...even though I don't actually see any movement overcoming a standstill. Perhaps it's going on beneath the radar?

[bruce]

Hex. 1 lines 2 and 6 seem to express similar ideas as your 64 readings. There is a process (a creation) going on here that is "not yet" ready to fully reveal or express itself, and forcing the matter (1.6) brings danger (as in getting your tail wet).

If the time isn't right, action born of anxiety can only make trouble.

[bruce]

Be in and enjoy the moment, even if it does feel a bit suspended.

[matt]

This is an interesting discussion! A 'new beginning' is that which comes after the completion of something/a cycle. I think Jessed was trying to indicate 64 means a new beginning once all the elements of a situation have been understood, for after completion, there is always born a seed of beginning. 64 represets the process of transformation, something 'not-yet' completed (as depicted in 49 Skinning away old forms), whereby the former situation is fording into a new stream of events. Like winter crosses into Spring, the end of something is also the beginning.

Just a side thought - 63 and 64 feel a lot like Einsteins E=MC2 equation to me. The process of energy constantly renewing itself. 63 is the conversion of matter to energy, symbolised from the bottom line upwards, yang to yin, yang to yin, yang to yin. And 64 is the conversion of matter to energy, yin to yang, yin to yang, yin to yang. So looking at it this way, 64 is the breaking down of exisiting foundations, releasing energy for the birth of a new Spring. In essence, Jesseds interpretation is correct.

[matt]

sorry correction:- that should be 64 is the conversion of energy to matter. So looking at it this way, 64 is the breaking down of exisiting foundations, releasing energy for the birth of a new Spring. In essence, Jesseds interpretation is correct.

Cold hands, cold mind, can anyone convert some energy into a warm blanket for me?

[lightofdarkness]

Matt - the point I was making re probabilities is that due to the infinite time span so 64 could appear 10 times in a row and still be a 1 in 64 shot - IOW nothing 'special' is necessarily going on.... that said the coins/dice etc could be 'biased' ;-)

[lightofdarkness]

As for 'new beginnings' etc and 64 - the skeletal form of 64 is 54 and IT covers a sense of immaturity that can be associated with the young and so 'new' - IOW the association with 64 in its fullest form of expression is incorrect and is the association of 54 with 'before completing' (64) but its skeletal form DOES have that association as a VAGUE feeling.

IOW the association is peripheral to rather than centred on 64. IOW it is 'acceptable' as a small part of the whole whereas it was presented as if the whole.

To add to the above 'spectrum' here is part of the page on 64 (for some reason many have an issue with following links!...):

"WEI CHI -

WEI : temporal negative; incomplete, has not occured...

CHI : cross a river at a ford or shallow place; overcome an obstacle, embark on a course of action; help, relieve, cease. The ideogram: water and level, running smooth over a flat bottom."ERANOS p665



Trigrams : containment (bottom), direction (top) : with/from containment comes direction. [fire over water]

The mud from which 64 has emerged is best described by analogy to the under-stated qualities of hexagram 54, immaturing

As a marker of context, where context acts to PUSH instincts, 64 'demands' a preferred response of the qualities of hexagram 63, after completion, closure.

In the binary sequence hexagram 64 pairs with hexagram 40.
This pairing reflects an overall focus on relaxed structure where the relaxation in 64 can lead to an 'error' occuring, and so an increase in tension, whereas relaxation in 40 leads to a release of tension.

In the binary sequence hexagram 64 opposes hexagram 63.
This pairing reflects the differences in (a) remaining open (64) vs (b) focusing on closure and 'correct' ordering (63).

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the WATER trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 29, the focus upon containment and control, 'opposes' hexagram 64, remaining 'open', 'mis-containing'. The issue here is on the degree, where 29 has a 'wide' boundary of yin/yang differentiations, it is clearly 'water', whereas 64 is tighter, more mixed in yin/yang differentiations where we have the opposite of water, fire, present in the top trigram position. As such, the exaggerated sense of avoiding closure/making 'small' errors, is reflected in a more balanced format through the use of containment/control. (this also gets into the issue of 'pure water' - 29 - versus water coming-up against fire (64). As such one would assume that the ordering is 'wrong', surely the exaggeration is in water vs the balanced of 64? no. as we move into the realm of integration so the exaggeration of a quality is in fact an exaggeration of integration and so 29 is correctly mapped to the more 'balancing', if becoming a little over-balancing, agent in this relationship)

In the traditional sequence hexagram 64 pairs with hexagram 63.

MIXING:

63 : mixing - through closure, completion, correct sequence; 63 completion, closure, comes from a context described by hexagram 53 - maturing

64 : mixing - through open, non-closure, incorrect sequence; 64 non-completion, remain open comes from a context described by hexagram 54 - immaturing

In the traditional sequence hexagram 64 opposes hexagram 01.

This pairing of 01/64 reflects the absolute differences between pure/individual expression and mixed/group expression. As such, when compared to hexagram 01, hexagram 64 reflects incompleteness but also the benefits of remaining open and the overall sense of 'groupness', and so of mixing (reflected in the yin/yang line orderings as well).

The generic properties of hexagram 64 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 40 with the generic properties of hexagram 54.
A combination of relaxed structuring (40) combined with issues of immaturity (54) is reflected in issues of remaining open (avoid closure) and 'incorrect ordering'.

In the variations on a theme sequence, hexagram 64 complements hexagram 38.

Chris.

[lightofdarkness]

Clarissa, my perspective is 'different' to what appears to be your 'traditional' path so all I can suggest is to pose your questions on the ICPlus questions pages (links given previously) - what that will do is give the context of the situation and from there, using the XOR material, give you an idea of how that context will 'push' you and develop itself.

That said, the above posts covering the structure etc of 64 may also help you in understanding what buttons it pushes.

Chris.

[void]

I really think Jesed sees 64 in a light which makes alot more sense to me than it did before. I always wondered why 63 was completion and 64 after completion, when sequentially it should be other way around. In 63 something is completed so something new can begin in 64. 64 has begun something new after completion of 63. 64 has begun something new after something else has been completed, but it hasn't finished yet. Well it makes sense to me.

Chris I don't see you in any position to 'correct' Jesed, only in a position to have a differing point of view, thats all.

[bruce]

In the sense that being pregnant is a new beginning, I could agree with what Jesed said. But in the sense that a child has been born: not yet across. In the same way, hope may have already crossed over (the vision I?d mentioned earlier) but not yet the reality or actualization.

[void]

Maybe it might help if Jesed give a real life example. I'm trying to think of one...the example here the other day was a good one, where a person said she had left an area to live and work in another, but was not happy yet...and did not know whether to continue. Jeseds advice was really good in that thread I thought. I will post link if I can find it.

[clarissa]

Bruce:
Hex. 1 lines 2 and 6 seem to express similar ideas as your 64 readings. There is a process (a creation) going on here that is "not yet" ready to fully reveal or express itself, and forcing the matter (1.6) brings danger (as in getting your tail wet).

If the time isn't right, action born of anxiety can only make trouble.

MS:
Thanks Bruce. I also received 12.3.6 -> 31 and 53.5 -> 52 to two other questions related to this issue...which once again seems to be saying the same thing. Do you agree? 12 -> 31 speaks of a standstill eventually coming to an end...and 53 -> 52 speaks of something like a standstill in that it talks of something taking a very long time...but eventually coming to pass. I'm thinking that 12 and 52 are in some way...similar.

[bruce]

Clarissa, yes, I think I see what you're referring to.

12.3 makes admission and begins to doubt previous assertions. Line 6 begins to do something about it, taking corrective measures. These are good steps to take before undertaking a crossing, it would seem.

31 interacts through common/shared attraction. That couldn't happen without reconciliation from 12.

(I'm unsure of the progression you've received here.)

53 - Steady and graceful motion, like the flight of a wild goose, brings about security and stability, in 52.

On a less analytical note, the emphasis in all this seems to be on relaxing and allowing, rather than on tension and forcing.

[lightangel]

Bruce, I like your new picture!!

[jesed]

Hi

I'n not saying the child is born yet in 64 http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

New begining IS NOT something that is alredy achieved.. is something TO BE achieve...

When one is facing a new begining.. nothing is completed. One is like a fox crossing a frozen river: already left behind the western edge, but not yet arrives at the eastern edge

If you left behind the western edge, is because is no more a fuitfull land for you, so don't back... easter edge is the promisse for a better land. But you are still in the middle of the river... so walk precautionly, don't rush, hear every sound for danger...

Hope this could shows better what I'm traying to say: Clarissa is like this about situation y. So, she needs to get a better vision of that situation, of the diferent elements interacting in that situation, tu put every element in its own place.

In one prhase: "Clarissa, Yi Jing gives you so many 64 to shows you that you are in the middle of a huge transition related to situation y... this situation won't be anymore what it was... accept that and find out how to start something new about it."

Of course, if Clarissa finds this advice is wrong related to her real problem... I will acept that and review my idea.

Best wishes

[jesed]

Another methaphora, in case could be easier to understand.. is from Bible

The old age of Exodus ended when Josue cross the Jordan river... and this act was the begining for a new age: conquer of the Promissed Land....

So, that new age started with the crossing of Jordan River... but of course it took great wisdom, huge effort and much time to achieve the conquer of the Promissed Land.

(And no one try to go back to the desert http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif )

[bruce]

Thanks, Angel. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif I wish others would share more about themselves in their profile, including their pictures. Makes it more like a community, less like autonomous masters. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

Jesed, ok, I can dig it. I?ll give it more thought. Thanks.

[lightangel]

You are right.. it's very nice to be able to give a face to the name.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif I'm even thinking of doing something about my profile and I hope many others will also share a bit of themselves..

[bruce]

Jesed,

je je, now when the people were baptised in the River Jordan, did they receive the Spirit before or after they came back out of the water?

[bruce]

So it was going into the water which was the hope? (new) Hope, (new) vision, (new) expectation, all these are 64. And if that's what you're saying, we're not disagreeing.

[lightofdarkness]

Void, IMHO I think it may be of benefit for you to review the binary sequence since it is the only sequence created 'naturally', and so representing core structure, and so ordering qualities from 'pure yin' to 'pure yang'. Focusing on the traditional sequence, a PARTICULAR, DERIVED, sequence is misleading in that you appear to be considering it the 'natural whole' when it is but a derived whole - small world stuff.

In the binary sequence we find that the QUALITIES of 64 share space with the QUALITIES of 40, as the QUALITIES of 63 share space with the QUALITIES of 37.

In these relationships the differences are in the top line only and as such 64 represents a conditional state, 40 an unconditional state. IOW they both reflect the core sense of the bit pattern 01010 with 64 manifesting the expression of the conditional side and 40 the expression of the unconditional side.

Their 27-ness is in the pair of 54 for 64 and 38 for 40. These relationships are all encoded into the IC, they are not some idiosyncratic interpretation of mine - they are like 1 + 1 = 2 ;-) (Note the skeletal form of 63 is in 53 - gradual development, maturing, all part of getting things in the 'correct' sequence etc (and so 63 is often referred to as the symbol of the 'correct' line values etc))

'Beginnings' or 'new' etc etc all relate to basic representations around THUNDER and 54 has that element in it but is an ANALOGY to describe the 'raw' nature, the skeletal form, of 64, note the core 64 meaning. The same for 40 in that it too has THUNDER as top trigram but that contributes to the DIFFERENCE of 40 from 64.

Jesed's original comment appeared as a presentation of the core meaning of 64 as if representing beginnings etc etc etc. This is, in the context of core meaning, 'incorrect' ('stretching' the meaning) and that is not my assessment, it comes out of the IC. It is easy to see the source of the 'incorrect' interpretation if you do not let the IC 'tell you' in that we all focus on particulars over generals and so personal over collective - and in doing so develop ' biases' in our assessments. But now we have access to the IC itself telling us.

IMHO Void you really do need to focus on the binary to understand the structure of the IC, the traditional will not help since it is more a sequence focused on the recursing the 01/64 pair rather than 01/02 pair.

If we move to the species IC level then 64 reflects a context of contractive bounding (containment issues) in which is operating a text of expansive bounding (ideology issues). IOW the whole hexagram shares with 63 the sense of issues with boundaries; 64 with approach to the boundary (as in getting it 'incorrect' or avoiding/delaying reaching the boundary marker) and 63 with expanding the boundary (push outwards from it). The boundary marker is the point of 'completion'. In fire we push it outwards, convert difference to sameness; in water we hold it, pull it inwards as a way of keeping things out/in.

If we move to the emotional aspects of the IC then 64 represents issues of rejection/rejecting within which operate issues of acceptance, and 63 the reverse.

The 64/40 pair are thus rooted in a context of containment/control, of issues of rejection/rejecting. The 63/38 pair is more rooted in issues of acceptance etc.

With understanding the self-referencing of the IC so the IC describes itself. You don?t seem to 'get' that and given the bias to the traditional texts that is understandable but we are at a point in working with the IC where there is change present and we are moving way beyond the limitations of the traditional perspective - and all due to our uncovering properties and methods of the brain in its derivation and communication of meaning.

Chris.

[clarissa]

Hi Jesed,

"In one prhase: "Clarissa, Yi Jing gives you so many 64 to shows you that you are in the middle of a huge transition related to situation y... this situation won't be anymore what it was... accept that and find out how to start something new about it."

Of course, if Clarissa finds this advice is wrong related to her real problem... I will acept that and review my idea."

I certainly am in the middle of a stream "crossing over"...and was when I asked those questions that gave me 64 repeatedly. I was also a little impatient and upset that things were not progressing as I thought they might. In that case...I guess the 64 was the Yi's way of telling me that I'm going in the right direction...am in the middle of a big transistion...but the time for y...is not quite yet.

[bruce]

Chris,

(in simple terms, please, if possible) What relationship, if any, do you see between 64 and 4? And also, any insights on relationship between 64 and 3?

Thanks

[lightofdarkness]

Bruce, my first approach would be through XORing:

The 4-ness of 64 is described by analogy to hexagram 16:

IOW 4-ness of 64 how is 'masking', socialisation of youth etc expressed through a context of mis-sequencing/remaining open. The analogy is to 16 where the focus is on the use of foresight, enthusiastic planning etc (and so not completing things as good as the plan! - a common problem for many! ;-))

The 64-ness of 4 also described by analogy to 16 where the expression of mis-sequencing, remaining open, not completing etc is covered in the same focus on an over-emphasis on planning and enthusiasm that can distort perceptions of reality - we can make an error, lose one's way and get things 'incorrect' but we can also over-emphasise the planning and so avoid 'closure' in the form of avoiding putting it all into practice.

The 3-ness of 64 is described by analogy to hexagram 10 and visa versa.

3-ness covers sprouting, difficult beginnings etc expressed through a context of incompleteness/remaining-open. This is described by analogy to 10 with its emphasis on rigidly following a path whilst under close scrutiny (as a seed germinates into the environment that then influences that development so it needs to remain open to 'novelities' that can come along)

The reverse is the incompleteness/remaining-open influence of 64 expressed through 03 - and so the same hexagram, 10, with its focus on conduct/treading etc.

In principle it is possible to make the 64/3 and 64/4 dichotomy and apply recursion to give some 'logic of relationships' in the form of a sequence of 32 pairs (a is to 64 as b is to 3 etc) - we already do this for 01/02 pair in the form of the natural binary sequence.

These are 'pure' expressions and as such IC self-referencing (as pure mathematics does). THEN comes the grounding of the universal to a particular context (as applied mathematics does).

The IC as such, like Mathematics, is a language and so can be used to represent anything but from an immediate qualitive perspective rather than starting with letters/words etc.

[bruce]

I can see what you're saying. Hoping I don't regret asking this http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif but how do you arrive 16 in your first example, and 10 in your second?

[lightangel]

[raising eager virtual hand..]
He XOR's them!!! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/proud.gif
In xor operation, 0&amp;0=0, 1&amp;0=1, 1&amp;1=0

to get the 4-ness of 64 he xors 4 &amp; 64, like this:

010001 (hex 4)
010101 (hex 64)
______
000100 (hex 16)

to get the 3-ness of 64 he xors 3 &amp; 64, like this:

100010 (hex 3)
010101 (hex 64)
______
110111 (hex 10)

Question for Bruce: What I really want to know is, does it make sense? Do you think that the 4-ness of 64 could be 16 and the 3-ness of 64 could be 10?
I often wonder if this manipulation of the hexagrams make sense, if the results are understandable and ring a bell for those who have an in depth knowledge of the normal I Ching.

[lightofdarkness]

This methodology is covered in the ICPlus material and shows it has its roots in recursion of ANY dichotomy and as such is not something unique to the IC, it is unique to recursion.

ALL parts are reflected in EACH part but distorted as such. As covered in the original 27-ness aspect, 'flip' the top and bottom lines of any hexagram to give you that hexagram's 'skeletal' form - IOW the qualities covered in 27. This applies to ALL hexagrams (and so the above earlier listing of 64s 'spectrum' where all hexagrams contribute to the description of each hexagram but IN GENERAL.)

The 27-ness material is the original mapping so try it out and from there we generalise to all other hexagrams capable of doing the same thing.

[bruce]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/footinmouth.gif

LOL, Angel, you lost me at 1&amp;1=0! Someone's been paying attention, though. Mind if I sit next to you during the test? And you're asking ME if this makes sense? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif

Sorry, Chris. I'm just not wired for this sort of mathematical reasoning. But I sincerely thank you for your effort. I do grasp many of the general concepts you talk about, though. But where numbers and such come to play, I'm lost in the forest.

[heylise]

4-ness of 64 might be the big eyes full of expectation when you have no idea what will happen. The expectation causes you to enter into it, even without knowing if there will be any result.
3-ness 10. Maybe the careful treading of the little fox, which makes a new beginning from chaos possible?

Lise

[lightangel]

Well it should really say "1 xor 1 = 0"
Yes, you may sit next to me during the binary operators test, LOL.
And please, stay there for the following test, "Reading the I Ching 101" http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

Well, my question as to whether it makes sense is regarding the application of these operators to real life. In this case, the validity of these assertions:

"The 4-ness of 64 is 16"
"The 3-ness of 64 is 10"
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif
Does that make sense? Whatever you assume the 4-ness or the 3-ness of anything is supposed to mean.. that was my question..

[bruce]

Angel, like some others here (I think), I do strongly believe Chris has always been onto something significant. Instinctively it resonates as real. But I can't tell you why exactly. I do perceive that every hexagram can relate to any other hexagram and that the emphesis and influence changes accordingly, IE: the 4-ness qualities of 64 makes perfect sense to me, as LiSe reasons it, for example. How Chris arrives at that, no idea. Yes, yes, I know.. XOR. lol

And no problem with "reading 101". That much I can assist you with. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[lightangel]

Thanks LiSe, that makes sense. Thanks Bruce. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
I too think the material is very interesting, if a bit over my head at this point. I still think it's best to understand the original I Ching a bit better before trying to start xor-ing things around! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[jesed]

Hi Clarissa

"I guess the 64 was the Yi's way of telling me that I'm going in the right direction...am in the middle of a big transistion...but the time for y...is not quite yet."

I'm totally agree wiht this. And the last phrase of my original comment for you (about leave past in the past) points a question:
could it be that before "time for y completely arrive" you need to close something else? something about x?

I'll speak clear, hope don't be rude:

a) seems that is about relationship... time for relationship with y is not quite yet because you has not close relationship (or the wish to have relationship) with x
b) if job... time for job y is not quite yet because you has not close job (or the wish to have job) x

In any case... seems tha "x" and "y" are two posibilities or situations that exclude each other... seems that "time for y is not quiet yet" because "x" is not leaved behind already.

Best wishes

[lightofdarkness]

Lightangel, you wrote:

"The 4-ness of 64 is 16"
"The 3-ness of 64 is 10"

I started-off with:

"The 4-ness of 64 is described by analogy to hexagram 16" - there are fundamental differences here in that the focus is on the use of the IC as a language that works off analogy/metaphor; IOW when we derive a hexagram for some particular situation we are deriving an analogy where it says "this situation is LIKE/ANALOGOUS-TO the qualities represented by hexagram X" - and so MANY contexts can elicit the same hexagram as meaning.

Due to the XOR-ing we can then extract from that GENERAL the details on where X develops, how it starts, ends, expresses things etc.; we get the hexagram's spectrum.

In modern times 'bots' are on the 'net identifying your preferences re books, cds, etc based on such tools as the MBTI - IOW they focus on a genetic factor that 'pushes' you, your autopilot - from taking samples they can generalise to a 'type' and so use that as feedback for sending you promotional material presented in a way you will find 'attractive'. - IOW they acquire you spectrum and once done can 'push your buttons' more efficently, more productively. KNOWING this allows us to identify our our buttons and refine them and so we can push them etc. The fun of feedback and self-referencing!

The ICPlus focus is on extracting the representation of the CONTEXT and with that extraction, and using XOR-ing, show all of the 'buttons' that that context can set-off when we are placed in that context - that placement being willingly or due to circumstances beyond our control (an aspect of 54)

Note the IMPLICIT nature in this - we do not ask a question about 'something/someone', we ask questions about the context IN GENERAL (as covered in the previous links to the questions pages) and from THAT then go for details about that context... this gets into the notion of moving into a context and having to 'integrate' with that context prior to any 'actions' (recall the story of the rainmaker who came to the village and bunkered-down in a supplied hut for days prior to eliciting rain - when asked 'why the delay?' he said he needed to get in touch with the 'tao' of the area first before he could do anything - IOW by identifying the 'buttons' of the context, how it can push him, so he knows what buttons he can push to get the context to respond in the way he wants.)

The "Language of the Vague" means we work off implicit identifications where the closest we can get to describing 4-ness of 64, at the scale of hexagrams, is analogy to GENERAL qualities of 16. IF we move up or down the recursive tree then we get sets of more general or more particular qualities usable in the description but we cannot be precise to the degree of saying "4-ness of 64 IS 16" (we are of course tempted to do so as we seek to reduce things to some shorthand but in doing so can covert the figurative into the literal) - in fact the complete IC requires us to go to dodecagram levels but expressed in the forms of hexagrams with changing lines. However there is no need for that level of details (a spectrum of 4096 qualities is not as easy to handle as one of 64!)

16 has its particular 16-ness that is unique to it (it is described by analogy to 02 - the home of, the container of, all potentials - when we apply 02 to 16 then out pops 16 - the 'ideal' form extracted from the pool of potentials) but then there is a range of qualities from the dampened to the exaggerated for each hexagram.

For example using hexagram 23 - the dampened, the underexaggerated qualities of 23 are covered in such terms as 'housekeeping'. OTOH the over-exaggerated qualities of 23 are covered in such terms as 'the high priest/priestess assertion of the one 'true' faith' (the 'across-the-board' focus being on PRUNING - and so the 'simple' prcoess of housekeeping or the 'heavy metal' process of 'strong' presentation of the preferred faith - from the light vs dark level of interpretation we are dealing with the last bastion of 'order' prior to collapse and so a need to maintain that bastion).

In the use of 27-ness, so the 27-ness of 01 is 28 but here we use 28s dampened meaning in the form of 'excess', too much yang - whereas the full spectrum of 28 covers 'too much yang' to going the extra distance for someone/something.

IOW the skeletal form, the 27-ness, is described by underplaying the meaning of the derived hexagram that is serving as the source of analogy.

From the level of the GENERAL and UNIVERSAL there is a wide range of states that describe something. As we ground that general into a particular context so the description becomes more precise BUT also more LOCAL. IOW for each hexagram there is a spectrum of expressions at the local where, working from the general, those expressions are reduced to 'vague' terms.

All of that said, there is still a LOT of work to be done in these areas as we get a better grasp of the dynamics associated with recursion and their expression in the IC.

Chris.

[lightofdarkness]

Bruce,

The XOR processing reflects the use by the brain of that logic operator to extract details from a complex form (an AND state with all linked together). To IMPLEMENT that operator in the brain requires TWO neurons, one feeding-back on the other, and so SELF-REFERENCING becomes an essential feature of details extraction. IOW the recursion of yin/yang is in our heads ;-)

To experience this XOR/AND dynamic see the examples of sensory paradox in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html

Each diagram is a 'complex line drawing' that our brain XORs to extract details - and in some circumstances elicits 'paradox'.

Also see the comments on foreground/background dynamics of the brain:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/wavedicho.html

From the IC perspective, each hexagram is a WHOLE where the use of XOR-ing allows for the extraction of what makes up that whole. (If you dont like the term XOR then we can just take a hexagram and apply recursion to it bottom up to get the same parts lists - see the page http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html )

Chris.

[bruce]

Hi Chris,

I understand your first paragraph.

The first page reference reads something like a jet plane mechanic manual. But you already knew that. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif I can get the ideas it speaks of into general focus, but I have no interest in the schematics. Know what I mean? It just doesn't speak to me. But neither is the outcome foreign to me. No, I don't and can't break down all the working components by name, nor do I process the faculty for math to understand through its logic, but rarely does the simple truth which comes from your work escape me. And that I really appreciate.

Live long, your work prosper.

[clarissa]

Hi Jesed,

Yes, x and y ARE fairly mutually exclusive. In fact, I think someone spoke of leaving the western bank...and heading toward the eastern bank. Well, this idea of being in the middle of the stream fits very well...even literally almost...with my situation. I've definitely left the 'western bank' (which could be seen as x) and I'm carefully wading across the river at the moment. When I asked "What do I need to know about y?" I was getting impatient with how things were going...wanting what I wanted right then and now. The Yi's first 64 response was...64, no changing lines. I guess that was a bit like shouting 'Hold your horses!' at me.

Anyway, I think I understand 64 a bit better now.

[jesed]

Hi Clarissa

Glad I could help a little bit with my "'unhelpful' or 'misleading' or 'stretched' comments on 64" (Chris dixit)

Just kidding...http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/paperbag.gif

Now. talking serious: my best wishes for you... I'm sure you will get "unwet" to the easter edge

[lightofdarkness]

Clarissa wrote:

"Well, this idea of being in the middle of the stream fits very well...even literally almost...with my situation."

Then 64 is not describing things - 11 is where the focus is on harmonising/balancing and so in a state of mediating - see the ideogram description:

T'AI : spread and reach everywhere, permeate, diffuse; communicate; great, extensive, abundant, prosperous; smooth, slippery; extreme, extravagant, prodigal. Mount T'AI in eastern China was a sacred mountain connecting heaven and earth. The emperor made offerings there to establish harmony between humans and the great spirits. The ideogram: person in water, connected to the universal medium."ERANOS p186

The overall focus is on a mediating position and so being in the middle of x/y. Qualitative associations of x and y allow for the 'earth/heaven', push/pull association and being in the middle.

the other 'mediating' state is more of neutralising than harmonising and it is represented by hexagram 12.

If you wish to keep to the 64 perspective then the 11-ness of 64 is described by analogy to hexagram 30 - IOW in a context of 'incompleteness' harmonising/balancing is expressed in the form of guidance/direction-seeking. IOW we focus on some 'point' to reach and in doing so harmonise/balance-out with the current bias of being temporarily 'pointless'.

All of that said, if you got 64 by 'random' methods then there is no guarantee that 64 is the 'best fit' for the situation.

Chris.

[lightofdarkness]

To complete the pattern - the 12-ness (and so alternative mediating state focused on protection) of 64 is described by analogy to 29 with a focus on containment/control.

IOW in a context of 64, neutralising is expressed in the form of water issues (aka contractive bounding issues - keep things in/out) - IOW you cannot express 12 directly in this context, its expression will be skewed and 'look like' characteristics of 29. (all due to the context
'pushing' and so biasing expressions)

Chris.

[lightofdarkness]

The recognised expression 12 in this context of 64 is in fact the distorted expression of 29. IOW if the focus is on asserting containment/control in this context, then it will appear in the form of characteristics of 12 - of neutralising etc. Thus to assert containment/control focus on asserting aspects of 12.

The nature of 64, its emphasis on 'mis-sequencing' or 'delaying closure' or 'incompleteness' etc will distort the expression of any other archetypal form operating in its context.

[peace]

This what I found:

Crossing the great water means getting past a period that is dangerous to our perseverance.

Receiving this hexagram indicates that we have not achieved true inner quiet, therefore, we are posed to act.

We have come to a conclusion without first attaining the correct perspective - a dangerous situation (K'an). We must seek the correct viewpoint - one which is not tainted by a single emotion.

Clarity (Li) gives us the strength needed to overcome the dangers threatening perseverance and is the "vehicle of crossing" mentioned in the 2nd line. Before we can attain clarity it is necessary to attain true inner quiet; only then can we become attuned to our inner voice; only then can the correct view show.
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In an earlier thread someone asked about "disciplines of the Devil's country".

Here it says we must resist the luxury of taking the lead, demonstrating our personality or indulging our wants.

It goes on to talk about our PERSEVERANCE as the key to this hexagram - and not to let the ego steer us off course because of our desires.

So Clarissa - I think it's saying not to lose your way and stay on course and not to get distracted and sidetracked by fear, desire or what other people tell you. It's about clarity and perseverance.

Rosalie

[peace]

Testing

[lightofdarkness]

Using the I Ching as our guide, the focus on perseverence is a response to the qualities of the hexagram. IOW traditional IC comments are not just about the hex but about how to respond to it.

Move into the universal IC position and we focus on basic structures. Of note here is the relationship of the hexagram PAIRS of 40,64 vs 37,63. These pairs reflect the sharing of the same space other than the top line. We can flesh these out by then focusing on their opposites nature through the pairing of 40,37 and 63,64.

40 and 37 cover the generic concept of tension release; 40 through a focus on issues of relaxation of structure, 37 through a focus on issues of rigidity of structure.

OTOH 63 and 64 cover SEQUENCE, steps, rather than overall structures.

IOW as 40 focuses on the (sudden) relaxing of structure that allows for tension release so its 'mate', 64, focuses on a relaxing of sequence. IOW in both there is a 'casualness' involved that can come with consequences - the fox does cross but gets its tail wet in doing so since it did not follow the 'correct' steps to complete; even if it did get across its method was 'slack' and as such a cause for possible suffering.

In 40 the casualness is expressed in the after-effects of a summer storm where the storm 'breaks' the tension of the heat prior to that storm - things become more relaxed, mellow, laid-back as a consequence of the release.

OTOH with 37 we focus on imposition of a rigid structure with the analogy to the form of family/clan/corporation/nation. Here everyone knows their place and there is no competition within (first son is a first son, mother is a mother etc etc). This same focus on 'correct place' is present in 63 as a focus on 'correct sequencing' - the focus is on the correct steps from beginning to end not the particular qualities of "beginning" or "ending". (and there is the sense of never-beginning/never-ending in that the correct steps are eternal)

The sense of 'correctness' in 63 is reflected in the traditional material with the focus on hex 63 being a model for the yin/yang qualities of the line positions - 1,4,5 are yang, 2,4,6 are yin and this maps out to hexagram 63 reflecting this notion of 'correct sequence' and so of 'rigidity'. With this rigidity comes negatives in the form of being too correct, too quickly; following an algorithm that lacks contact to local context.

With 64 we have a positive aspect in the form of avoiding closure, making the steps 'flexible' intentionally to allow for unexpected events that may help in our eventual 'completion'.

Given this 64 context and so a bias to a push of 'mis-sequencing' so the focus on persevering - you may make 'little errors' but perseverence (a quality associated with keep going, keep 'stepping') allows for the translation of 64 into 63. (in the path of 63 to 64 so as one keeps getting it 'right' there will come a time when an 'error' is made)

We can then add to these pairs their '27-ness' pairs - 53/54 for 63/64 (and so a generic sense of issues with 'maturity') and 38/39 for 40/37.

Chris.