Cards, Yarrow Sticks, coins or Dice?

[petrosianii]

I came across an interesting section in a wikipedia article a few weeks ago about probabilistic mathematics and the I ching. A I Ching practitioners/mathematicians have discovered a way to preserve the probabilities of the yarrow-stalk method through the use of cards. (Read about Probabilistic Mathematics (http://gnosisarts.com/i-ching-insights.html) or I Ching Geometry (http://gnosisarts.com/i-ching-insights.html) for a fuller discussion of this subject)

You take one of one suit (say, diamonds); three of a second suit; five of a third; and 7 of a fourth. The one of one suit corresponds to old yin; the three of of the second suit, old yang; the five of the third suit, young yang; and the seven of the fourth suit, young yin.

I've been using this method, and I find I'm liking it better than the simple coin method. Plus, it's nice because it doesn't take as long to get your hexagram as does the yarrow-stalk method. But it's long enough to induce the meditative frame of mind needed to really penetrate the unconscious.

[sparhawk]

I favor cracking tortoise shells, although, it can get a little bloody... :D

BTW, the marble method also has the same probabilities as the yarrows. Look for it here as it has been discussed before and Hilary has the method listed somewhere.

[charly]

I came across an interesting section in a wikipedia article a few weeks ago about probabilistic mathematics and the I ching. A I Ching practitioners/mathematicians have discovered a way to preserve the probabilities of the yarrow-stalk method through the use of cards. (Read about Probabilistic Mathematics (http://gnosisarts.com/i-ching-insights.html) or I Ching Geometry (http://gnosisarts.com/i-ching-insights.html) for a fuller discussion of this subject)

You take one of one suit (say, diamonds); three of a second suit; five of a third; and 7 of a fourth. The one of one suit corresponds to old yin; the three of of the second suit, old yang; the five of the third suit, young yang; and the seven of the fourth suit, young yin.

I've been using this method, and I find I'm liking it better than the simple coin method. Plus, it's nice because it doesn't take as long to get your hexagram as does the yarrow-stalk method. But it's long enough to induce the meditative frame of mind needed to really penetrate the unconscious.
Hi, Petro:

I had time ago a projet with I Ching cards, but I was not sure about the accuracy from the probabilistic point of view.

If I undestand well, the method you propose uses french cards. Could you explain it with more detail? May you give us some examples?

I always use coins but I read that probabilities using coins are different that using stalks. I'm not sure if cards can replicate the stak probability. The links you post are not free.

Thanks in advance,


Charly

[jeb]

Hi All.

I was reading your thoughts on generating hexagrams. Stephen Karcher author of Total I Ching offers another option using coloured objects (e.g.marbles or stones) 7 of one colour, 5 of another, 3 of another and one of another. Doesn't matter what you use, or what colours. Stick em all in a receptical, shake em up and pick one out six times, simple.One of the 7 is a Yin line one of the five is a Yang line one of the three is a changing Yang and the single colour is a changing Yin . Not into maths myself but apparently returns a similar probability of yarrow stalks without the fiddly stuff and if its two quick for you then maybe chill and make yourself a cup of tea while contemplating your question and, before shaking the bag(my method)!!

Jack

[dobro]

Okeydoke. Splain sumthin to me.

Why are probabilities in whatever method you use to consult the Yi important?

1 If it's completely random, what's the point of consulting? If the Yi's response isn't intelligent, if it's completely mechanical and probabilistic, then what's the point of consulting? What can you gain by talking to a machine? You get to hear the sound of your own voice. What else?

2 If the Yi's response to your question is intelligent, then probabilities in the method don't matter, right? Cuz you will get the intelligent response the Yi wants to give you NO MATTER WHAT THE PROBABILITIES.

[petrosianii]

thanks, dobro, for your questions. i've often thought about that too; namely, that if the shen are really in control of the outcome of the coins or cards or sticks...or whatever...then what difference does the probability ratio make? Maybe thwe should post a thread on that and see what we get back?

[dobro]

I think we're in that thread already. Nobody seems too interested though.

[wishcraft]

I came across an interesting section in a wikipedia article a few weeks ago about probabilistic mathematics and the I ching. A I Ching practitioners/mathematicians have discovered a way to preserve the probabilities of the yarrow-stalk method through the use of cards. (Read about Probabilistic Mathematics (http://gnosisarts.com/i-ching-insights.html) or I Ching Geometry (http://gnosisarts.com/i-ching-insights.html) for a fuller discussion of this subject)

You take one of one suit (say, diamonds); three of a second suit; five of a third; and 7 of a fourth. The one of one suit corresponds to old yin; the three of of the second suit, old yang; the five of the third suit, young yang; and the seven of the fourth suit, young yin.

I've been using this method, and I find I'm liking it better than the simple coin method. Plus, it's nice because it doesn't take as long to get your hexagram as does the yarrow-stalk method. But it's long enough to induce the meditative frame of mind needed to really penetrate the unconscious.

You could try my software layer for the i-ching.

http://www.download.com/i/dl/button/anim_button.gif (http://www.download.com/ANTdb-2005--I-Ching-Chaos-Engine-/3000-2056-10778809.html?part=dl-ANTdb2005&subj=uo&tag=button)

[hilary]

Description from CNET:
"This application explores this fascinating 5000 year old fractal that can be applied to just about any vector in science. ANT stands for Alpha Numeric to Trigram, it is displaying the basic trigram not my yantra extended one that was developed as an object in 2004-2005. I have not further developed this application from 2005 as I decided I would eventually rewrite it in .NET when time is sufficient. This also include the code for Fractal Encryption Set which kinda turns a byte on the side. As the i-ching is recognized as a fractal by Texus Professor Kayta Walters who authored a book called the Tao of Chaos which lead me to develop this application for a better understand of the literature."

Um. What does the software do?

[urim]

Re: 'card method' mentioned above by Petrosianii... this method sounds to me like
it would have the same probabilities as the so called '16 method' using marbles
endorsed by Katya Walters because the probabilities simulate the yarrow sticks.

I've been using the 16 marble method for some time now and it seems to work
great.

Urim

[urim]

I think we're in that thread already. Nobody seems too interested though.

This is something I've always been interested in since my discovering the I Ching.
Seems eventually most people get around to wondering about the mechanics of it
all.
I don't think anyone really understands how the I Ching works... i.e. throwing
coins, yarrow stalks etc. and the randomness of it all (the mechanics).

After studying Chaos Theory and a little Quantum Physics, I'm currently
going with a slightly altered- Katya Walter's Chaos/fractal idea- which goes
something like this----The universe is a huge constantly changing fractal organism,
an interconnected random PATTERN of events, past and future-- which we can't see
because of our limited perception etc. Directions for events (as near as I can
understand) are triggered by 'strange attactors' etc.
Because we are a part of the big PATTERN we can initiate a very small random
PATTERN which is a reflection of the big PATTERN by throwing coins etc. which
generates a hexagram.
Then you spice up the foregoing concoction with a little of Jung's sychronicity
ideas and some bastardization of Bohm's Holographic universe theories.

If anyone's interested in more detail in foregoing I can suggest some books on
the subject... not sure if this helps...

cheers
Urim:

[dobro]

I see two main ways of viewing the Yi coin toss: it's random, or it ain't.

If it's random, then you'd do as well when asking a question to open the book at random and read whatever your eye fell on. The idea behind the 'random' interpretation, I think, is that the Yi text is a useful trigger/stimulator/mirror for the intuitive parts of your mind which merely need a cunning foil like the Yi to come up with useful ideas and feelings. In other words, I ask a question like 'what's the best way to survive this ordeal?' and ANY hexagram, ANY line or combination of lines is useful to me - ANY of them would supply the jog my intuition needs to come up with the stuff my mind already has the capacity to produce, stuff which is useful to me.

If it ain't random, then it ain't random. But it seems to me there are two ways (at least) of viewing this. If the hexagram (and lines) you draw in answer to a question isn't an accident, then it might be because the universe has no choice but to give you the answer you get to your question. It might be completely mechanical, is what I'm saying. Not accidental. Mechanical. That view would say that at the moment you ask the question and toss the coins, you could ONLY get the result you get, in the same way that if you come into a dark room and flip the light switch on, you can ONLY get light (you don't get music or water or fast food). It's mechanical. The idea here is that your particular fall of the coins was as inevitable as the rising of the sun every day. But another way to view this inevitability is what I call the 'angel wing' theory, which is this: something like angel wings fluttering around the coins as they tumble from your hands onto the floor determine which coin combinations you get. In other words, people who are more connected with 'angel energy', more connected with their own higher minds, more connected with the Universe (however you want to view it) will get a reliable 'divine intervention' in answer to their question. So if you believe this, it doesn't matter about the probabilities inherent in using coins or sticks or balls or online consulations, cuz divine intelligence is going to make damn sure you get the result you need to get in answer to your question at this time in your particular frame of mind and with your particular personality, karma and conditions.

And the longer I deal with this question, the less it seems to matter. Cuz in the end, the Yi works for me, and so whether it's accidental in its operation, mechanical, or divinely determined, it's all pretty much the same in the end. And *that* is why I think I'll decline your kind offer of a reading list lol.

[petrosianii]

i lilke your last comment there...
perhaps that's all the Yi is: a sort of "generator" for the unconscious? It works for me,
I'm not too big on the deterministic theory: that things happen only the way that they could happen. I mean, it's obviously true, but doesn't really tell me anything.

Thanks for your clear thoughts

[urim]

Yeah, I basically agree with what your saying, Dobro and thanks for the quick
response & don't get me wrong... the Yi works for me too... I'm just the kind
of guy that likes to figure out exactly how things work.

I haven't really heard of the 'angel wing' theory before-- nice touch, although
a parallel here might be intervention of 'the spirits'-- an idea which Karcher seems to
favor in his books.

I also like what you said about cracking the book open at random and pointing
your finger etc. 'cause you can do the same thing with a good dictionary...
I think they used to call it Webster's Oracle or something like that...

Personally I like to think that the process isn't random, but instead governed
by some laws of physics (chaos theory works for me) that we don't quite understand
yet.

Quantum physics experts have said that if an electron changes it's axis spin,
that other electrons- light years away-- are aware of it, or something to that effect...
...hmm ... I'm thinking there's got to be some relevance here to the I ching
process... can't quite put my finger on it though...

Urim

[dobro]

Well if even sth as small as an electron changes, then the whole universe is different by that one event. But of course electrons and their spin follow very definite laws and therefore a change of electron spin will always be lawful and 'known' to the universe even as the universe is being changed thereby.

By to tell you the truth, I subscribe to all two or three ideas I outlined above, if the user is legitimately respectful of the oracle. I think that the oracle DOES function in a way that jumpstarts my intuition (but I have to do the work of paying attention and engaging with the Yi's imagery); I think it always does this. I think that most times, the oracle functions in a pretty mechanistic way, the same way that the spin of electrons is governed by universal law; I think it functions pretty much the same way that sonar works - the signal goes out, bounces off the ocean floor or whatever else is down there, and is picked up and imaged on the screen of the vessel using it; and I think sometimes, if the user is legitimately respectful of the oracle and if their development will really benefit through serious consideration of the Yi's message, that the 'angel wing' idea holds true, in the same way that the story of the prodigal son states that if you make a real move toward divinity, then divinity comes out to meet you and welcome you.

[rosada]

"...story of the prodigal son states that if you make a real move toward divinity, then divinity comes out to meet you and welcome you."
I hadn't realized the "comes out to meet you and welcomes you" idea. Really nice. Thanks, dobro.

[jeb]

This question of probability and its importance.

It seems to me, human life can be described and defined in terms of probability simply because through the science of maths, we can. Regrettably time and again it has proven top be as important as we want to make it.Which is essentially whereever there is more than "one" of anything and wherever there is a human to contemplate it. If there were no humans then I'm sure whatever dominated the planet, lets say for argument sake, gorillas, wouldn't give a "monkeys" about a probabalistic calculations in comparing wether one method of anything was better than another.

As far as I ching goes I agree entirely with Dobro view of 6th Dec. But! in deciding what method you use to communicate with I Ching through, our only options are to relate to "what's known" to be part of original methods. If we rely in the first place on spirtual input generated via human actions we either should stick to those methods or others that we can arrive at by whats known of those original methods.All we know of the original methods is by human calculation of the probabilities generated by the various original methods, and in my view that is the only thing we as humans can relate to in choosing and alternative i.e. something that relates closely to the original probabilities. If we could get what we need from reading tea leaves, casting bones, flipping a coin, or direct spiritual contact then I'm sure we would. As regrettable as it may be for some comparing alternative I Ching methods probabilities is the only way, hence its importance.

[dobro]

As far as I ching goes I agree entirely with Dobro view of 6th Dec.

I'm afraid you can't do that, Jeb. What I posted 6 December wasn't a view, it was a question.

[jeb]

Sorry Dobro. I thought "Cuz you will get the intelligent response the Yi wants to give you NO MATTER WHAT THE PROBABILITIES" was a view, the rest being questions? I also thought that as the original thread posed the question "Cards, Yarrow Sticks, coins or Dice?" which then led to your opening question on the 6th "Okeydoke. Splain sumthin to me.

Why are probabilities in whatever method you use to consult the Yi important?"

I thought it important that we not lose sight of the original question which was about what method to use and how we decide, before agreeing that the I Ching will give us whatever it gives us, which obviously it cannot do without a method, so which one do we use?

[stewlsa]

Hi
There is an article in the Wiki at click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching_divination#How_the_coins_are_tossed)

cheers:)
stewlsa

[sparhawk]

I'm afraid you can't do that, Jeb. What I posted 6 December wasn't a view, it was a question.

Geeze, even when they agree with you, you play the contrarian?? LOL!! :rofl:

[miakoda]

Comparing coins and stalks isn't just about the mathematical probabilities of the two methods. There's another aspect that yarrow stalks and marbles have in common that coins don't share--the tactile connection while making a conscious choice. I used the coins for 30 some years, but switched to marbles a few years ago. I've discovered in using the marbles that I'm a more direct participant in the process. My instincts now have a greater role in the reading and the experience is far more meditative and sprirtual. In addition, using marbles also allows for "conversational" readings where many aspects of a situation can be discussed, which has deepened my understanding of the text and my life.

No matter the probabilities of any of the methods, I'm sure the Yi finds a way to get the information across. Even using just four marbles would work because the Yi adapts (think of all of those people who are always confused about the traditional coin method and still find the answer anyway). But there's something about sifting the objects through your hands that eases the reading and can make the connection to the Yi Jing even stronger.

Best,

Miakoda

[martin]

I wouldn't worry about those probabilities. As long as the distribution is not too skewed you are okay. It means that you have a device that is sensitive enough to hear the heavenly music and dance with the angels.

Of course calculating exact probabilities can be fun but it's like trying to weigh the angels. It's all illusion, angels are weightless! :)

[dobro]

Geeze, even when they agree with you, you play the contrarian?? LOL!! :rofl:

Not contrary. Helpful.

In that post he/she was responding to, I was outlining two different possible ways of looking at the Yi, I wasn't describing my own position. It was as if I had said: "Light can be thought of as a wave or as a particle. Which is it?" and then somebody replied with: "Well, I agree with you, dobro."

Alternately:

Sparhawk: You're being contrary, dobro.

dobro: No, I'm not.

haha

[hilary]

Hehe.

On the one hand, if God/ Cosmos/ insert-shorthand-for-unknowable-here wants to communicate with you, then it's unlikely you can prevent this by choosing the 'wrong' probabilities.

On the other hand, years back I tried some I Ching software that had equal probabilities of moving or unmoving lines. The results were teeming with changing lines, of course, and I found it unusable. So it seems we can make it harder or easier for the message to get through, and probabilities are just part of a well-designed 'interface'.

BTW, I think an answer can be mathematically random and still meaningful and intended by the [shorthand], in the same way something can be blue and still triangular. (Calculate the odds of receiving the same hexagram twice in a row. OK. Calculate the odds of receiving the same hexagram when you next ask the same question. Ah. Oops.)

[willow]

Funny, I just discovered that I haven't been playing with all my marbles! Noticed after a reading (my annual reading, no less) that there were only 15 marbles in the bowl. I've been missing an unchanging yin for who knows how long. Although that of course changes the odds, the discovery didn't affect my sense of the validity of the reading. For the marbles method, as (miakoda) says, casting is very tactile, and my fingertips don't seem to care what they're choosing from. If the changing yin had been missing (the marble of which there is only one), I might have felt differently. Or I might have just taken that fact as additional information in an ongoing conversation with the universe...

[sparhawk]

Although that of course changes the odds, the discovery didn't affect my sense of the validity of the reading.

Aha!! That's an interesting angle to explore.

[petrosianii]

Funny, I just discovered that I haven't been playing with all my marbles! Noticed after a reading (my annual reading, no less) that there were only 15 marbles in the bowl. I've been missing an unchanging yin for who knows how long. Although that of course changes the odds, the discovery didn't affect my sense of the validity of the reading. For the marbles method, as (miakoda) says, casting is very tactile, and my fingertips don't seem to care what they're choosing from. If the changing yin had been missing (the marble of which there is only one), I might have felt differently. Or I might have just taken that fact as additional information in an ongoing conversation with the universe...

Man, u guys and gals are...deep!
This example makes me recall a moral paradox that the French philosopher Sartre expounded upon: You're in London.I don't know you're in London, but I think you're in New York. A killer comes to find you and asks me where you are. I "lie", to protect you, and tell him you're in London. He goes to London, find you and kills you.

Now, the question is, of course: Did I lie or tell the truth? Does lying merely have to do with conformance to external fact, or does it also have something to do with my intentions on some leve? Am I guilty or innocent?

In the same way, I've gotten readings "accidentally" but, like willow, it doesn't seem to affect my sense of validity of the reading ... so long as my heart (i.e. intention) is in the right place.

[fyreflye]

If you want to make the playing card method more fun use a tarot deck instead: http://www.accessnewage.com/articles/Tarot/GAULT1.HTM

[barneybus]

I woke up this morning thinking and exploring the ideas contained in this thread of discussion and checked my email and here is this link to this thread. Quite a synchronous moment for me.

What do I mean by left field? I think its quite possible to get tied up in a mechanistic idea of how things work and avoid the question about why what exists is here in this form in the first place and questions of the origin of it all.

I personally like the ideas Carol Anthony explores in her Cosmic I Ching book where she speaks of the Ego skewing things and endeavouring to exploit the 'divine' for its own gratification etc. Somehow we can place strings onto "what is" and use it for our own gain. Somewhat akin to the idea of the "untamed ego".

My thoughts about using yarrow sticks are in the main centred on the main purpose being to tame or diminish the ego's input through a task that is repetitive, frustrating, and monotonous and requires focus to be able to keep the inquiry in mind.

But I would also say that apart from mechanistic views, or views about egos skewing and exploiting, that a good deal of time and discipline is not engaged in spending time arriving at what the key question or enquiry is in the first place.

So left field for me hinges a few mental steps or contexts back from the actual manipulation of card, stalks, coins, dice or grandma's knitting needles. My view is that all that exists, in its symmetry and order has an origin I understand as Creator who is other than what he or she has created. I can diminish ego and overcome the mechanics with the idea that I "connect" with this One who is "other than" and maybe with such a connection you won't even worry about using any device other than the Spirit within you?

All well to you and my sincere thanks for this discussion and my trust in you all as fellow seekers of what is true because you have helped me this day.

[roman_slayer]

In a local Pagan group meeting, another member told me how he and several others will occasionally draw a hexagram by sitting in a circle, and each person will take a turn rolling a die, making one line at a time, even numbers Yin and odd numbers Yang. I didn't think to ask him what kind of die, as in, 6 sided or 8 sided. When I suggested using three dice to cover the possibility of a moving line, he shrugged his shoulders and said that they didn't worry about it. I would.

But, thinking about it made me want to experiment with rolling dice, with polyhedral 20 sided dice, the type you use when playing Dungeons and Dragons, and my way, with three of them. It seems like an even more random element, more than you would get from just three 2 sided coins.

[roman_slayer]

I just now ordered several 30 sided dice for this experiment, which will make for even more randomness :)

[sparhawk]

Here is an interesting opinion from 1975:

It is evident that for any of the three countings required to produce a line of the hexagram, once the left-hand heap has been counted out and the remainder obtained, then the final score is already determined and it is not strictly necessary to count through the right-hand heap of stalks. It seems likely, however, that the whole process of counting through the stalks was seen as a representation of the interplay of various cosmic forces, and for this reason it was thought desirable to carry it through to completion. The Ta Chuan or Great Treatise, one of the ancient commentaries on the book, contains a section relating various numbers associated with the counting of the stalks to such cosmic entities. Thus the two heaps correspond to the two primal forces, the bundles of four to the four seasons, etc.

The Coin Oracle is a much simpler and more speedy affair. To obtain any line of the hexagram one tosses three coins in the air. Traditionally, old Chinese coins are used with a hole in the middle and an inscription on one side. Each coin scores 2 if it lands with the inscription face-up and 3 otherwise. The scores for the three coins are then summed, to give a total of 6, 7, 8 or 9 as before, and the corresponding line is obtained.

3. ANALYSIS
Looking now at the total score-which determines the nature of the line obtained we have :

(a) Yarrow-stalk Oracle
prob. {total score of 6) = 1/4x 1/2x 1/2 = 1/16,
prob. {total score of 7) =
(3/4 x 1/2x 1/2)+(1/4 x 1/2x 1/2)+(1/4 x 1/2x 1/2) = 5/16,
prob. {total score of 8) =
(1/4 x 1/2x 1/2)+(3/4 x 1/2x 1/2)+(3/4 x 1/2x 1/2) = 7/16,
prob. {total score of 9) = 3/4 x 1/2x 1/2 = 3/16.

(b) Coin Oracle
prob. {total score of 6) = 1/2x 1/2x 1/2 = 1/8,
prob. {total score of 7) = 3(1/2 x 1/2x 1/2) = 3/8,
prob. {total score of 8) = 3(1/2 x 1/2x 1/2) = 3/8,
prob. {total score of 9) = 1/2x 1/2x 1/2 = 1/8.

Thus, in each case we have
prob. {yin line) =prob. {yang line} = 1/2
and
prob. {moving line, i.e. total score of 6 or 9) = 1/4.

APPLIED STATISTICS
However, in the Yarrow-stalk Oracle, a moving yang line is three times more probable than a moving yin line. In the Coin Oracle the two are equally likely. It follows that, if the outcome depends solely on chance, the two methods of consulting the oracle will in general produce different results-not a very satisfactory situation!
It can be argued, however, that the outcome of any true divination is not dependent upon chance-that external factors are operating which ensure that the result is what it "ought to be". As Jung says, "whoever invented the I Ching was convinced that the hexagram worked out in a certain moment coincided with the latter in quality no less than in time", and he speaks of the old tradition that "spiritual agencies" are involved which act "in a mysterious way, that make the yarrow stalks give a meaningful answer". Thus at any given moment, the fall of the coins or the outcome of the division of the stalks is what it necessarily must be, in so far as it is an essential part of that moment and hence possesses the particular quality peculiar to it. The fall of coins or division of stalks observed is thus a token or "sign" of the situation prevailing at the time at which they are cast, and the problem becomes that of extracting the significance from the outcome-i.e. "reading the signs". This amounts to associating the different outcomes with particular types of line, and it is at this point that the two Oracles diverge. The Coin Oracle associates the possible outcomes with the four kinds of line in a symmetrical fashion, whereas the Yarrow-stalk Oracle does not.
As the Yarrow-stalk Oracle is the one which has been in use since antiquity, and as the ancient Chinese were no strangers to the mathematical arts, it seems likely that they were aware of the lack of symmetry inherent in the method, and indeed that it was even intentional, as it can be easily justified in terms of the underlying philosophy. Lines of a hexagram are considered to "move" as a result of internal tension; only lines possessing sufficient power are able to change. Since yang lines represent the light, positive, strong element and yin lines represent the dark, negative, weak element, is it not reasonable that a yang line should be more likely to move than a yin one?

4. CONCLUSIONS
The Book of Changes has a dual function. Quite apart from its use as a book of divination, it can be read as a Book of Wisdom-a sort of practical handbook of Taoist philosophy-and my own view is that it is in regarding the book as such that its true value lies. If it is read in the light of later Taoist teachings then it has, I believe, a great deal to offer-although, as Fung Yu-Lan (1947, Chapter V) has pointed out, the "tao" of the I Ching is not the "eternal Tao" of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. However, the Oracle itself has acquired something of a cult status in recent years-without any reference being made anywhere to the discrepancy between the two methods of consulting it. In deference to the wisdom of the ancients who composed the book and devised the method of counting the changes, I would recommend that anyone wishing to consult the Oracle should do so by means of the yarrow stalks rather than using the Coin Oracle.
Divination in Ancient China
D. Robinson
Applied Statistics, Vol. 24, No. 3. (1975), pp. 329-332

[hilary]

...which would make perfect sense if the yarrow method we have today actually was older than the three coin method...

[sparhawk]

...which would make perfect sense if the yarrow method we have today actually was older than the three coin method...

Not sure about the method itself, as described in the received text, but yarrow use for casting hexagrams is perhaps a tad younger than cracking tortoise shells... I cannot find much of a mention to coin casting in the Han, or Qin, or prior extant literature but yarrow divination is all over the place.

[buzzurro]

...which would make perfect sense if the yarrow method we have today actually was older than the three coin method...

That's great, I was just going to report a couple of links about this:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/consult/yarrow-or-coin.php :D

and also:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/stick.htm

Now, one thing I've being wondering for a long time: there are several faster, easier methods that give the same probabilities as the yarrow stalks, but it seems as if nobody ever wanted to go the other way around, that is, modify the yarrow stalks method in order to obtain a slower, more elaborate method with the same symmetric probabilities as the three coin... is this true?
Yet it would be extremely simple...
:bows:

[willow]

As I've thought about this over the last couple of days (referring to my casting without a full set of marbles but nevertheless trusting the result), I'm wondering if it's useful to make a distinction between "divining" and "dialogue with the universe." Of course "divining," done with integrity, includes the dialogue, but also, divining is not the only form of dialogue, and perhaps it is lazy or even fundamentally unfair to call forms of dialogue that aren't specifically divination by its name.

When I located a proper 16th marble and restored my set, I asked
Q: What is the difference between casting with a full set and casting without all my marbles?
A: 6 (1,4) => 61
Haven't fully parsed that answer, but it seems to have a cautionary joviality to it, something like, "Sure, sometimes you can hear the inner truth station through all the static of a broken radio, but that is not the most elegant way - don't make a practice of it!"

[petrosianii]

"Since yang lines represent the light, positive, strong element and yin lines represent the dark, negative, weak element, is it not reasonable that a yang line should be more likely to move than a yin one?"

To round out this comment (which is a great one, by the way). This is why the card method works so well, I think. The seven cards of a suit correspond to a stable yin line, reflecting yin's tendency toward inertia. Thus, it is most likely, that when you get a yin suit, it will be unchanging, which corresponds to the oldest traditions of Taoist thought as discussed in the excellent 1975 article.

Conversely, the one card of a suit corresponds to a changing yin line, since yin is full of inertia and least likely to change spontaneously. The 5 of a suit correspond to a chaging yang line, as it is relatively more likely that yang lines (the typcial "rulers" within a hexagram) will be the authors of change in a given situation. And the 3 of a suit represent a stable yang line, as it is relatively unlikely for yang to remain inert.

Thus, the card-method preservers the original asymmetrical understandings of ancient Taoist philosophy, gives the diviner enough time and touch to induce the quasi-hynotic sate of mind necessary for deeper insight, yet doesn't take quite as long as the stalk method (a vauable commodity in our time-economizing culture).

For a couple of interesting articles on I Ching mathematics, visit my site (http://gnosisarts.com/i-ching-insights.html)

Cheers,
Eric

[petrosianii]

I like your statement about removing the ego's over-influence...Jung stated the same thing. He said that the I Ching helps the seeker "get in touch with non-egoistic material."

Very enlightening!

Eric

[charly]

... it seems as if nobody ever wanted to go the other way around, that is, modify the yarrow stalks method in order to obtain a slower, more elaborate method with the same symmetric probabilities as the three coin... is this true?...

Hi:

Maybe such a method is described by Chang Chen-Lang in the chapter 3 «A Conjectural Schema of Yarrow Stalk Divination» of AN INTERPRETATION OF THE DIVINATORY INSCRIPTIONS ON EARLY CHOU BRONZES, generously posted by Sparhawk at another forum.

Download it from: http://www.yitoons.com/pdf/chang-cheng-lang.pdf


Years ago I used some simplified methods usings sticks or little stones or beads:

Using sticks (or little stones):

I used a set of 50 brochette sticks. With one stick in the right hand I divides randomly the remainder 49 into 3 subsets.

Then I counted each subset from stick 1 to 8, I continued counting form 1 to 8 until no more sticks in the subset.

I retained the last number counted.


If the number was 1 the value was 9,
if it was 2 the value was 6,
if 3, 5 or 7 the value was 7
and if 4, 6 or 8 the value was 8.

Then with 3 subsets I had the inner trigram.

I proceed another time for getting the outer trigram.

I believe that the probabilities are the same than from coins method, but I'm not sure.
I was inspired in Jou Tsung-Hwa simplifications (1).


Using a necklace of similar beads:

Taking randomly two points with right and left hands, I counted the beads between form 1 to 8 and another time if necessary.

I used the last number counted for getting the values 9,6,7,8, but with this method I counted one time for each line, 6 times.

I was inspired by a tibetan method for divination using neckages (not the Yi).

Yours,

Charly

____________________________
(1) inspired too in the game of «palitos chinos»

[buzzurro]

Hey, thank you very very much, Charly, for all this very interesting info!
:bows:

I still have to read through the entire article, but I notice that the method described by the author is almost the same as your brochette sticks method, except for this:

"sixty-four stalks are divided each time into four groups, with the first group being discarded and not used"

Well, this is the problem I foresee in the method you describe: when you divide the sticks into three subsets, each subset representing a line, you can only obtain half of the eight possible trigrams! That is, maybe you can get the remaining four in the relating hexagram, I don't know, but surely you won't get them in the primary one...

That's because of the way odd and even numbers work:
e + e = e
e + o = o
o + o = e
So, when summing three numbers:
e + e + e = e
e + e + o = o
e + o + o = e
o + o + o = o
So, since 49 is odd, you can only divide it in these two possible ways:
e + e + o = 49
o + o + o = 49

This must be the reason why you quitted using this method years ago, and rightly so ;)
Unless I overlooked something in your explanation... :confused:

By the way, I don't even know what the Jou Tsung-Hwa simplifications are, I'll try to google for this... I'm still a newbie, and it shows, because I hadn't yet realized how the idea of modifying yarrow probabilities must sound like a swear-word to some ears! :rofl:
My humble opinion about which probabilities should be used is: both seem to work.
Maybe different probabilities (yarrow, coins or else) work better for different persons, this is what I tend to believe so far...
Anyway I'm intrigued by the great variety of methods that are used to cast hexagrams, that's it. :)

Thanx again! :bows:

[charly]

... I foresee in the method you describe: when you divide the sticks into three subsets, each subset representing a line...

So, since 49 is odd, you can only divide it in these two possible ways:

e + e + o = 49
o + o + o = 49

... I don't even know what the Jou Tsung-Hwa simplifications are...

Maybe different probabilities (yarrow, coins or else) work better for different persons, this is what I tend to believe so far...

Thank you:

1) that's surely the reason why Cheng divides by four. I never was sure if the probabilities were the same as with coins. It's clear the bias in favor of odd numbers.

2) I go to search some Jou Tsung-Hwa paragraphs for quoting here.

Yours,

Charly

[roman_slayer]

I just now ordered several 30 sided dice for this experiment, which will make for even more randomness :)
Update!

I found that the 30 sided dice are too bulky, so I tried rolling three 20 sided dice. I considered the even numbers "Yin/yielding lines" and odd numbers "Yang/firm lines". It works great! You would not believe how great they roll. I highly recomend to everyone to try using three 20 sided dice to draw Hexagrams. That's certainly the way I'm doing it from now on :^)

[dobro]

Twenty-sided? How does it work?

[buzzurro]

Twenty-sided? How does it work?
If I understand well, it's the same as using the three coins: the dice have 20 sides, but you simply count even numbers as 2 and odd ones as 3.
The difference lies in the fact that dice roll (I don't remember having seen 20 sided dice, but they must be nearly as round as balls!), while coins can only fall on either side: not different probabilities, but a different procedure...

This leads me to this consideration: probabilities are not the only thing that matters when choosing a method for casting hexagrams. I believe there must be something in the material and/or in the way you use it that can provide you with a better connection, because it acts like a catalyst for your psyche... I mean, it's been said that the complex procedure used with yarrow stalks induces a particular state of mind... and also the material, I believe, contributes to this, because it's the same that was used nearly 3000 years ago... what I'm trying (and probably failing :D) to explain is that I think every (good!) method can have a somewhat similar effect, even though for different reasons, on those who enjoy using it... coins, dice, cards, rocks, beads...

Last summer, when I had just begun being seriously interested in the Yi, I talked about it with a cousin of mine for whom I feel great admiration and affection.
I told her that I wanted to get a set of coins, not necessarily chinese, but other than the ones I could really use as money... Her boyfriend was there too, and he was biking through Europe, so she asked him to look into his wallet for three coins of the same kind from one of the countries he had been, and in a matter of seconds I got these three little coins from Estonia, with the number 10 on one side (which is the binary for 2, or 2 digits if you prefer) and 3 lions on the other... perfect!
They're currently my favourite means of casting hexagrams, because of their affective value, you know... :)

[petrosianii]

Thank you all for your insightful comments! You have really enriched my understanding of the different methods of divination.

It seems to me that the summary of this topic is this: equally as important as the method's probabilistic implications, are the psychological implications. When choosing a method of divination - whether coins, dice, stalks or something else - I need to consider not only whether the probability of the chosen method remains true to the tendencies and nature of yin and yan, but also whether the method enables me to enter into the quasi-hypnotic or meditative mental state needed to really plumb the depths of the hexagrams and my subconscious.

keep up the great insights!

Eric

[dobro]

It seems to me that the summary of this topic is this: equally as important as the method's probabilistic implications, are the psychological implications.

Sorry to harp on this (straight from the flogging a dead horse department?) but the probabilisitc implications are null if probability doesn't enter into it.

How do you explain the startling and uncanny resonance between the situation you're in and the hexagram you draw on so many occasions, and which so many people report, if it's only probability at work?

[hilary]

I believe there must be something in the material and/or in the way you use it that can provide you with a better connection, because it acts like a catalyst for your psyche...
Mm. Certainly the material I use affects me. Working with yarrow gives a huge sense of connection and continuity, much stronger than with other things. (I know the method isn't ancient, but the use of yarrow in one way or another is about as old as the oracle.)

I mostly use a set of beads that LiSe gave me (:hug:). Over the years they've really started to affect the way I see the lines. I tend to visualise hexagrams as I cast them rather than writing them down, and the stones become part of how I 'see' the lines as I fix them in memory. Yang is smoky quartz, for instance, and moving yang is clear quartz. Now, for me, moving yang lines are the place the hexagram 'lights up' and becomes more translucent.

[hilary]

Sorry to harp on this (straight from the flogging a dead horse department?) but the probabilisitc implications are null if probability doesn't enter into it.

How do you explain the startling and uncanny resonance between the situation you're in and the hexagram you draw on so many occasions, and which so many people report, if it's only probability at work?

Probability can be at work, and other things can be at work along with it. Like we can have this conversation over the internet and with some forum software - easier than using carrier pigeons - but Vbulletin isn't the sum total of our conversation.

:deadhorse:

[dobro]

Probability can be at work, and other things can be at work along with it.

Yes, thanks for reminding me of that. Both the law of accident (probability) and the law of intention operate simultaneously. And depending on one's degree of awareness, one is stronger than the other. And if the law of accident predominates, the Yi is still useful insofar as it acts as a mirror or foil for one's intuition to kick in and provide useful insight.

Very nice.

(walks away from thoroughly dead, thoroughly beaten dead horse)

[roman_slayer]

If I understand well, it's the same as using the three coins: the dice have 20 sides, but you simply count even numbers as 2 and odd ones as 3.
The difference lies in the fact that dice roll (I don't remember having seen 20 sided dice, but they must be nearly as round as balls!), while coins can only fall on either side: not different probabilities, but a different procedure...

Very astute of you dobro, that is what I do, although as I said, my exact method is that I consider the even numbers yielding lines and the odd numbers firm lines. And, very good visualization on your part, having never seen 20 sided dice (also called d20's), and yet still being able to estimate their shape :) As a matter of fact, I will share a picture of them here. Click this link to see them ---->

http://find-ccg.com/Products/20_Sided_Dice_in_Random_Colour_and_Style.html

I don't know if links are clickable on this forum, but if they aren't, copy and paste the link into your browser to see the picture.

And Hilary, please believe me when I say that I'm not trying to spam the message board. Yes, it is a website that sells these dice, but it's not my website, and unfortunately, it was the only real good picture I could find of them on the web.

Like I said before, I am very pleased with the way these dice work with drawing Hexagrams, and I recomend to everyone who uses the "3 Coin Method" to try the "d20 Method", as I call it, at least a few times. As a matter of fact, I highly recomend it! Also, d20's are cheap and easy to obtain, whether at online stores or at actual physical stores. If you want to buy some at a physical store, go to stores that sell games like "Dungeons and Dragons" and "Magic: The Gathering".

~roman_Slayer

[hilary]

... And Hilary, please believe me when I say that I'm not trying to spam the message board. Yes, it is a website that sells these dice, but it's not my website, and unfortunately, it was the only real good picture I could find of them on the web.

:confused:
Of course you're not. You're posting a helpful link - doubly so, since it provides people with a place they can get said dice. Thanks!

[sparhawk]

Here is some information I just posted about some historical background on Milfoil Divination. Enjoy. (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5236)