Memorizing the I Ching: 35. Chin / Progress

[rosada]

35. Chin / Progress
-----
-- -- above LI THE CLINGING
-----
-- --
-- -- below K'UN THE RECEPTIVE EARTH
-- --

The hexagram represents the sun rising over the earth. It is therefore the symbol of rapid, easy progress, which at the same time means ever widening expansion and clarity.

[sparhawk]

http://www.yitoons.com/yicards/yicard35.jpg

[dobro]

Ah, now we're making progress! About time.

[rosada]

Yeah, I think we got stuck in the hedge there at the end of 34.6

[rosada]

THE JUDGEMENT
PROGRESS. The powerful prince
Is honored with horses in large numbers.
In a single day he is granted audience three times.

As an example of progress, this pictures a time when a powerful feudal lord rallies the other lords around the sovereign and pledges fealty and peace. The sovereign rewards him richly and invites him to closer intimacy.

A two fold idea is set forth here. The actual effect of the progress emanates from a man who is in a dependant position and whom the others regard as their equal and are therefore willing to follow.

This leader has enough clarity of vision not to abuse his great influence but to use it rather for the benefit of his ruler. His ruler in turn is free of jealousy, showers presents on the great man, and invites him continually to his court. An enlightened ruler and an obedient servant - this is the condition on which great progress depends.

[dobro]

Sure, I'm okay with all that.

But what about the horses? Are they gifts from the sovereign to the man of ability in recognition of his contribution, or are they an building up and enhancement of the herd by the man of ability himself? Is he being honored with a gift of horses? Or is he building up the herd through hard work?

[rosada]

Hi Dobro,
You posted your questions before I had completed the quote from Wilhelm.
My take on this is that the ruler bestows the horses on the man as a gift, but then the man builds up the herd through hard work.

Today my husband and I had lunch at the senior center. At our table was a marvelous woman and her devoted daughter. The mother had raised her daughter and 15 foster children. Now in her eighties she lives with her daughter, who raises throughbred horses! When the woman was raising the children the daughter was of course the role model for the other kids - she was the powerful feudal lord rallying the other lords around the mother, the sovereign. When her husband died, the mother invited the daughter to live with her and set her up in business raising horses.

[dobro]

Okay, so if the guy in 35 receives a gift of horses from the ruler and then builds up the herd through hard work, then we're also talking about the parable of the talents in the gospels - the story of the three servants who were given something valuable, and two of them invested what they'd been given and made it into something bigger and more valuable, so they were rewarded *again* by the lord. But the third guy didn't put the gift to work - he let it be idle - and in the end he lost even what he'd been given.

[rosada]

Hmm..I think that's a bit of a stretch, Dobro.
In the parable of the talents the gift was an investment where as in 35.Progress the gift is a reward.
The parable emphasizes that not using one's gifts will lead to loss, whereas 35.Progress is about one's efforts being recognized - nothing about loss. Is it that we're seeing a basic differance in philosopy here? Is it the Bible sees the world in terms of right and wrong, where as the I Ching just says right or wrong, all efforts will ultimately manefest?

[dobro]

From where I'm looking, the Bible story and 35 are talking about exactly the same thing, but the Yi is describing only the upside of the situation - the reward that comes of trusted competence and achievement. Plus which, the Yi describes the work that then subsequently is put into the gift - so the order of the Bible story is:

1 gift

2 gift is enhanced through work, or left idle

3 if gift is enhanced, another and bigger gift is bestowed; if gift is left idle, it is lost

Whereas the order of the Yi version is:

1 valuable work is done

2 gift is bestowed as reward

3 more work is put into the gift

The only real difference I see is that 35 images a success story, whereas the parable images two outcomes, one a success story and one a failure.

[rosada]

I dunno. I still think two very different principles are being presented here. The Bible is saying that talents have been given to us to use and if we don't use them we will lose them. In 35.Progress the man is being rewarded because he gathered his friends about him and rather than inciting them to rebell against the sovereign, he encourage them to follow the sovereign. What he chooses to do with his reward is not mentioned.
Actually, I think hex.4 is more analigous to the talents parable. The Fool is given the help he seeks, but if he does not use it and keeps asking for more the I Ching cuts him off.

[dobro]

Top-down benefits in connection with a job well done. That's what I see in both cases, but maybe I'm more of a generalist than you.

Okay, let's play with the trigrams for a minute. What do you see in li above k'un? One thing I see is the sun smiling down on the earth, and this symbolizes both the favor and the gift in the text.

[rosada]

But it's NOT top-down benefits! That's why the image says "thus the superior man HIMSELF brightens his bright virtue"!
Another example about the meaning of Progress. We went off to the Senior Center for lunch again today. As we've only recently started going to these gatherings I was looking for a way to make friends. I wrote a joke out on a card and slipped it to the person sitting next to me. He smiled and made to give it back but I indicated he should pass it on. So the card was passed on and it made the rounds at the various tables. Then the group leader stood up and asked if there were any announcements. There usually never are and she was hoping someone would have something to say. By now my joke had reached her and she read it aloud to the group and everyone laughed. She asked me to come up and be introduced and I was given the first serving of dessert. :-)
I see all of this as an example of what 35.Progress is trying to teach us, which is, that the way to make Rapid Easy Progress is to start by strengthen ties with one's equals, rather than going streight to the man in charge, but be doing something that is helpful to the man in charge. I think the idea is that in this way your good intention will on it's own find it's way -Easy Progress!
In my case I was regarded as an equal by my seat mates and they were willing to follow my suggestion to pass the joke around. The group leader didn't see my passing a note as usurping her position, in fact, she needed a joke, and thus my idea found it's path and I was granted an audience, honored with a piece of cake, and am now well on the way to making new friends!

Well, I think you know I am not arguing with you here Dobro. I am enjoying discussing the fine points and seeing things I would not have noticed if you hadn't focused our attention here. On to the trigrams...

[rosada]

THE IMAGE
The image of PROGRESS.
Thus the superior man himself
Brightens his bright virtue.

The light of the sun as it rises over the earth is by nature clear.
The higher the sun rises, the more it emerges from the dark mists, spreading the pristine purity of its rays over an ever widening area. The real nature of man is likewise originally good, but it becomes clouded by contact with earthly things and therefor needs purification before it can shine forth in its native clarity.

The Image is directly explained through the relative positions of the two trigrams. Li, light, stands above K'un, the earth. Here we have a model for a philosophy of life: what is innately light rises over that which darkens. It can do this of its own power because it is not obstructed by earth, which is devoted and compliant in its nature.
-Wilhelm

[dobro]

But it's NOT top-down benefits!

Well, if it's not top-down benefits, why did you say earlier: "My take on this is that the ruler bestows the horses on the man as a gift..." That's what I meant by 'top-down benefits' - the gift of the horses from the ruler to the guy.

[rosada]

"All good people and things progress unless close to termination, so this is not a very specific name. 'Great development and increase(lower trigram K'un) of brilliant realization (upper trigram Sun)' better discribes this Hexagram.
"The lower trigram symbolizes the materialistic and the desires wanting to be filled up. This indicates some preliminary difficulties, but not persisting for long.
"The lower trigram is 'invoking' and the upper is 'evoking.' Therefore the "Superior' is successful in evoking the good support and cooperation of the 'inferior.' The sole adverse phase of the Hexagram is if the upper becomes enchanted with the drive of the lower to be 'filled up' and the brilliance of the upper abandons itself = but this would be only temporary and the 'advance and increase' in growth and development is assured ultimately. 'Great increase' describes the hexagram better than progress - increase in realization and brilliant manifestation.
"Let the superior not be hard on the strong desires or rebelliousness of the lower; rather, let the intelligence of the upper combine with the support of the lower."

- Louis T. Culling, The Pristine I Ching

[rosada]

We crossed posts.
You are seeing the horses, the gift, as the key to the lord's Progress. I am seeing the gift as a proof of his progress, not the cause of it. I'm seeing the lord progresses because he first bonded with his fellow lords, shared his ideas with them and his ideas found their way to the top without his having to do much to promote them. I see this theme developed through out the I Ching:
Hex. 1 says be clear about your intention.
Hex. 2 Follow the lead that comes to you.
Hex. 3
Difficulty at the Beginning works supreme success.
Why? Why would difficulties at the beginning be so positive? Because they prevent a person from charging ahead and making some disasterous blunder. One just needs to keep the goal in mind and stay focused but
Nothing should be undertaken.
Why? Because the person himself doesn't know what to do. It's time to call on those alternate selves, hire an expert, appoint a helper, bond with an equal who does know what to do or who can at least help.
What if the person does not follow the advice of the appointed helpers?
Hex. 4 says "At first oracle I inform him. If he asks two or three times, it is improtunity. If he importunes, I give him no information." and "The superior man fosters his character by the thoroughness in all that he does." So here we have the idea that one ought do something with the information - gifts - one receives as we also see in the parable of the talents.

By the time we get up to 35 we've had many lessons on having clear goals and gathering support until finally at Progress we are being told what success should look like. So we're not at the start of a project
where being given a gift is unearned seed money, we are well along in our journey and being given a gift means finally our work is meeting with some recognition.

[charly]

... 35.Progress is about one's efforts being recognized - nothing about loss...

Rosada:

I believe like you that h.35 is about a gift, but maybe not for the noble but for the horses.
To have a permissive Prince is a gift for them.

The horses are symbols of freedom, thus progress, advance without barriers, like the sun progress (1).

W/B PROGRESS:
晉jin4 / to advance, to increase, to flourish (2)/

W/B The powerful prince:
康kang1 / healthy, peaceful, abundant /
侯hou2 / prince, marquis [not a duke] (3)/

W/B ???:
用yong4 / to use, to apply /

W/B Is honored with horses in large numbers:
錫xi1 / to bestow, to confere /
馬ma3 / horse /
蕃fan2 / flourishing, to reproduce /
庶shu4 / ordinary, common people, numerous, born of a concubine /

W/B In a single day he is granted audience three times:
晝zhou4 / daytime /
日ri4 / day, sun /
三san1 / three /
接jie1 / to receive, to join /


The chinese text seems to speaks about a noble (not from the highest grades), healthy, peaceful and generous that gave the horses freedom for flourishing / reproducing like bastards.

Three times in a day was received the Prince? Maybe the three states of the sun in a day, from rising to setting.

Yours,

Charly
___________________________
(1) The sun as a charriot with horses.
(2) The character has two arrow advancing over the sun.
(3) Also the name of an historic prince, see Marshall.

[rosada]

So how would you translate this Charly?
"The Prince gives the horses freedom"?

[trojan]

Its a gift to the horses ? :confused: The horses are the gift - the means to make progress. 35 is a good time to get noticed, get approval and move forward without obstruction - but its not a time to sit around waiting for a gift but to make best use of the time for getting ahead. Its a time when those who have power actually notice and reward you - unlike 36. I think its about your position in relation to prevailing trends that govern the situation, could be a person, could be just the nature of the times, prevailing cultural attitudes and so on. IOW its a time when your values are accepted and supported by anyone/thing that has power/influence in the way the situation progresses. In 36 your values are not appreciated and you must hide them for the powers that be don't understand or value you - here its the opposite., things are going your way so make the most of it it won't last.

[dobro]

Its a gift to the horses ? :confused: The horses are the gift - the means to make progress. 35 is a good time to get noticed, get approval and move forward without obstruction - but its not a time to sit around waiting for a gift but to make best use of the time for getting ahead. Its a time when those who have power actually notice and reward you - unlike 36.

Yeah, that's my take on it too. I think the guy receives the horses, and the horses augment his herd. That seems to be the obvious meaning - the guy is honored (by contrast to 36 where you have to keep your head down in order to avoid injury - Hex 35 and Hex 36 seem to image the polarity of 'good ruler, bad ruler'.)

But I play with the idea that 'augmenting herd' idea might mean something like 'the guy improves or enhances the herd'. Like a horse breeder.

[charly]

So how would you translate this Charly?
"The Prince gives the horses freedom"?
Hi, Rosada:

«Freedom to the horses» is of course an interpretation, my tentative translation of the text is:

晉jin4 : PROGRESSING [like the Sun, like arrows over the sun]

康kang1 侯hou2: the Peaceful Prince (1)
用yong4: uses (2)
錫xi1: to allow (3)
馬ma3: [his] horses
蕃fan2: flourishing [or to reproduce (4)]
庶shu4: [like] bastards [born of a concubine or like ordinary people / horses(5)]

晝zhou4 日ri4: along the day [as long as the Sun lasts (6)]
三san1接jie1: three times [three receptions(7)]

(1) Robust but Tranquil Prince
(2) is a conduct
(3) to grant freedom
(4) flourishing = having sex
(5) maybe the horses were precious or delicate (maybe gifts of the Royal Mother) but the Prince treat them like ordinary horses, no matter their economical value.
(6) the Sun is always present, in 晉[two arrows over the Sun in search of a target], in the context, during the day and in the image of the horse related to the charriot of the Sun. Also in the upper trigram.
(7) of course there were mares, not only colts.

Only one among so much another stories.
To increase the received gifts a Peaceful-Prince is needed.

Yours,

Charly

[rosada]

Thank you Charly!
I'm also thinking now that special attention should be placed on the Sun rising above the Earth as indicating Progress being furthered simply by things coming out in the open. We went to the Senior Center again where my passing around a joke had led to my meeting people. Well yesterday another lady brought photographs of her art work and passed them about, thus giving us more reason to connect. Seemed to fit in with the idea that Progress happens when energy feels free to flow and make connections openly - like horses allowed to breed as they please.

By the way, here's the joke:

There was a theologen named Fiddle,
Who refused to take his degree.
He said, "It's bad enough being 'Fiddle.'
"I wont be Fiddle D.D."

[rosada]

I thought 35 was going to be about all being in accord and moving forward together. Now I think it's about everybody coming out in the open with their various points of view and it not being important if we agree. What's Progress is that we all feel comfortable speaking our truths.

[topal]

Thought I'd chime in briefly about my experiences with 35.

Certainly, it's about progress, but the quality of that progress is important. I've mostly had this hex when IC was basically giving me a slap round the chops regarding my ideas of progress. Not to "Abuse his great influence" i.e. his talents and abilities for selfish ends. So the fact that this is a progress from purification hex really fits in my experience.

I once laboured on some work for months and months and produced a lot of research connected to this work and in the end it went down the tubes due to political wrangling and general problems of an unforseen nature. A lot of it was due to my own hubris too in taking on too much. I asked whether I could still use some of this research and share it. The result was 35 but not at all auspicious for my ego. :D Waaay, way down the line the work could be utilized but probably not in it's present form and not in the way I imagined.

35 can be really tough and not at all "positive." Purification never is for the ego I guess.

Lots of hard work involved but the application and direction of that potential progress seems to be very much symbolised in this hex. The Clinging is almost the material aspect the potter's wheel if you will, and the receptive is the water and energy that gives life to the action. But if the fuel running both is just your wish have it all, then the success may not last the pot will go flop over because your source of fuel powering the potter's wheel is not the electricity of the universe but your skinny legs peddling the system. And if in turn, your legs alone are not enough to drive the wheel due to a lack of self-work (energy) the progress will be a bit like an aspect of 30 which can burn brightly but not for long.

I like the idea of the Trigrams as the receptivity of 2: the oven receiving the object of creativity into it's womb and the fire of 30 "fertilizing" it into tangible, material existence - the finished product, whether that be job, relationship, product, craft etc., - a birth. It does tend to have a material slant to it in my own experience. And though all the hexes can be seen as alchemical, this one is pretty strong, hence the reason for the difficult and arduous processes involved in bringing something to fruition.

Topal

[trojan]

Topal re the "progress from purification" you mention in your first paragraph - I'm puzzled as to where you think the purification comes from ? I've just not come accross the idea of purification in connection with 35 before ? :confused:

[topal]

Topal re the "progress from purification" you mention in your first paragraph - I'm puzzled as to where you think the purification comes from ? I've just not come accross the idea of purification in connection with 35 before ? :confused:


Well, I suppose you could focus on many Hexes that are explictly about this process and 35 is more implicit. The idea of material progress seems to be quite strong in this hex - at least in my experience... Earthly things can aid us in letting the sun shine - becoming "brighter" or, if we become too attached to material acquisitions, the top job, the red shiny car etc. they can distort the creativity and we merge with the "dark mists." Wilhelm:

THE IMAGE

The sun rises over the earth:
The image of PROGRESS.
Thus the superior man himself
Brightens his bright virtue.

The light of the sun rises over the earth is by nature clear. The higher the sun
rises, the more it emerges from the dark mists, spreading the pristine purity
of its rays over an ever widening area. The real nature of man is likewise
originally good, but it becomes clouded by contact with earthly things and
therefore needs purification before it can shine forth in its native clarity.


Topal

[trojan]

Hmm i see, thanks for explaining. Purification had never crossed my mind for any hexagram, or maybe its just the word doesn't resonate. Thinking over what you said about attachment to earthly things distorting creativity I think another such thing can be praise and acceptance. I remember once reading a quote, wish i could remember who but it said something like acceptance is creative death to an artist because they cannot then help but start to perform to the demands of their audience - unless they are very strict with themselves that is. The point was i think if noone accepts, praises or notices your work then its easier to keep your artistic integrity intact than if you receive alot of recognition. I think with 35 its important to remember you are not getting all these goodies, praise, rewards, favour and so on wholly because you are so great but because its your season, your turn, like the wheel of fortune, and it will surely turn to a time (one day maybe another lifetime) where everyone thinks you are a nutcase and you had better pretend to be one if you want to have the freedom to hold to your true values (as in 36)

[hilary]

Nuclear hexagrams, anyone?

The hidden possibility in 36 is 40, Release: freedom to see your true path and walk it - exactly what Trojan's talking about, surely. The hidden possibility in 35 is 39, Difficulties. Great gifts come with a responsibility to make something of them; that means making hay all the time the sun shines, and then burning the midnight oil to plan out the next day's horse-breeding.

[dobro]

Ah. So you think he's a horse breeder too, and not just the honored recipient of a few head of royal equinity.

[hilary]

Definitely. Working translation for 35's Judgement:

'Prospering, Prince Kang used a gift of horses to breed a multitude.
He mated them three times in one day.'

Subject to revision, of course...

What he'd done to receive the gift was important, but so too is what he does next. He doesn't just turn them out into the field to take their chances.

[dobro]

'mated' ?

He 'mated them'?

jie1 can be 'mate'?

I'm using Bradford's lexicon, and it lacks jie1. Piddle. Am I going to have to get a good, expensive dictionary? Looks like it. In the meantime, 'mated'?

[sparhawk]

'mated' ?

He 'mated them'?

Which is not the same as "he mated with them"... :rofl:

[rosada]

Okay, on that jolly note I think we're ready to progress right along to...

[rosada]

35.1
Six at the beginning means:
Progressing, but turned back.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
If one meets with no confidence, one should remain calm.
No mistake.

At a time when all elements are pressing for progress, we are still uncertain whether in the course of advance we may not meet with a rebuff. Then the thing to do is simply continue in what is right; in the end this will bring good fortune. It may be that we meet with no confidence regardless of the situation, but should remain calm and cheerful and refuse to be roused to anger. Thus we remain free of mistakes.

[sparhawk]

I'm using Bradford's lexicon, and it lacks jie1. Piddle. Am I going to have to get a good, expensive dictionary? Looks like it. In the meantime, 'mated'?

Seriously though, I think that Hilary derives (actually, Hilary, is that your own translation?) that translation from some of the meanings of 接 which are: "to connect, join, put together" For example 接吻 (jiewen) is "to kiss," as in connecting the lips.

[dobro]

So now he's a horse-kisser? This is going seriously off the rails.

Okay, let's get down to this: what is it exactly that happens three times in one day in 35?

For jie1, Karcher has this: receive and pass on; follow in office; inherit, as father and son; associate with. He says the ideogram is of 'hand and concubine', and in this he sees things being passed on naturally rather than legally.

Wilhelm/Baynes has 'granted audience'.

Shaughnessy has 'connect'.

There's some serious disjunction in all of this, so where's the center in this cluster of meanings? I'll suggest some possible meanings. Add to them or comment on them:

1 The lord receives three gifts from the sovereign in one day. Unlikely.

2 The lord is received, or granted audience, three times in one day. Possible, but unlikely. If it was a formal award, it would happen just the once. If it means the lord has easy access to the sovereign, that he has the king's ear, then maybe.

3 It's got nothing to do with his relationship with the king, and everything to do with his relationship with the herd of horses. 'Three times a day' indicates the frequency and high level of involvement he has with cultivating and enhancing the herd. Possible.

[sparhawk]

So now he's a horse-kisser? This is going seriously off the rails.

Hey, life at the farm can be lonesome... :rofl:

BTW, is interesting to note that the character jie1 接 is the joining of the radical for "hand" and the character for "concubine."

[sparhawk]

I just posted an interesting link in Open Space about the rules of Classical Chinese. (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=5026) I think is a cool thread for those that, as me, want to learn to read it with some fluency.

[hilary]

Argh, I hate it when people ask me where I get things from. Means I have an anxious 'did I dream this up?' moment before I track it down. This one comes from Richard Rutt's Zhouyi. He's a thorough, scholarly and unimaginative type, and he says,
"There was a great interest in horse-breeding in Zhou times, and mating them as often as suggested was quite possible."

[sparhawk]

Argh, I hate it when people ask me where I get things from.

Argh... :D (Been watching Pirates of the Caribbean lately?) I only asked if it was your translation--a clear possibility, I may add. For all the books I have, I haven't memorized all the translations--faulty synapses--and Richard Rutt's "Zhouyi" is on the very top shelf --literally-- and I don't to reach for those up there on a daily basis... He makes a good point though and it is good you shared it.

[dobro]

You keep holding her feet to the fire, Luis. She can't be allowed to get away with stuff just cuz she's organized the premier Yi site in the whole world and has made her excellent translation available free of charge to all of us. I mean, that's no excuse. :D

Accountability, that's what we want.

[rosada]

If one meets with no confidence one should remain calm.

[sparhawk]

You keep holding her feet to the fire, Luis. She can't be allowed to get away with stuff just cuz she's organized the premiere Yi site in the whole world and has made her excellent translation available free of charge to all of us. I mean, that's no excuse. :D

Accountability, that's what we want.

Right on! No excuse, I say... :D Don't worry guys, I'll be the firewall to Hilary's "radiance." All the ladies, get behind me; you Dobro, at the end of the line in your finest drags... :rofl:

[dobro]

Right on! No excuse, I say... :D Don't worry guys, I'll be the firewall to Hilary's "radiance." All the ladies, get behind me; you Dobro, at the end of the line in your finest drags... :rofl:

Well, it's not her radiance that frightens me, it's her Wilhelmian poetic license, especially all this fast talk about mating horses. But if me in drag is what's required to maintain standards here, then that's the sacrifice I'll have to make, I suppose. But you know, I've heard that some women find sensitive men rather attractive, even despite the eye shadow and glitter spandex. Don't be surprised if you find yourself firewalling all on your onesie...

[sparhawk]

But you know, I've heard that some women find sensitive men rather attractive, even despite the eye shadow and glitter spandex. Don't be surprised if you find yourself firewalling all on your onesie...

Is that you, Eddie?? :rofl:

======>>>http://www.netzkobold.com/uploads/pictures/eddie_izzard.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eddieizzard.com%2F&ei=HX5mR4C-HqOieZibrUw&usg=AFQjCNGp56rl-S6vPOq9YM8lgNnmqRF4Bw&sig2=RuJir6Rjt-64dkgY9vH70A)

[sparhawk]

I was watching him last night on BBC America. The man is hilarious. :D

[hilary]

I keep members' true identities strictly confidential.

[rosada]

35.2
Six in the second place means:
Progressing but in sorrow.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
Then one obtains great happiness from one's
ancestress.

Progress is halted; an individual is kept from getting in touch with the man in authority with whom he has a connection. When this happens, he must remain persevering, although he is grieved; then with a maternal gentleness the man in question will bestow great happiness upon him. This happiness comes to him - and is well deseved - because in this case mutual attraction does not rest on selfish or partisan motives but on firm and correct principles.

[charly]

...'Prospering, Prince Kang used a gift of horses to breed a multitude.
He mated them three times in one day.'... to receive the gift was important, but so too is what he does next...
Hilary:

I agre very much with the advice, but some doubts subsist:


Must we read Kang Hou as a propper name or as a type of Prince?
To have a horse is always a gift but, does the text speak of gifts?
Used language has no plural, why horses and not a single horse?
Was the Prince merely utilitarian, in order to mutiply his patrimony he sends the horse to work?
Does allowance to mate three times a day supposedly accelerate the reproduction?
Do you see the King in some place of the hexagram?

Or maybe the Prince who has the gift of a horse generously allows him to make his life, paying a gift with another gift?

As you say, to have a gift is important but more important is what you do with it:

If you have the gift of a horse you must be generous with him.
If you have the gift of a mare you must be generous with her.


Yours,

Charly:bows:

[charly]

...with a maternal gentleness the man in question will bestow great happiness upon him... in this case mutual attraction does not rest on selfish or partisan motives but on firm and correct principles...
Rosada:

Do you think that the «blessing from the Royal Mother» can justify this speech about the maternal gentleness of rulers, mutual attraction and firm and correct principles?

I dont trust in it.

I believe that the blessing of to have a horse being a gift from the Ancestress must be understood as an allusion to the relevance of experience with significative women in early stages of guys developpment.

Horses, as animals, belong to the Great Godess.

yours,

Charly

[rosada]

Hi Charly,
Those aren't my words but a quote from Wilhelm. I usually post not only his translation of the line but also his comment. I can't get back into my posting now give him credit, but i will make a point of crediting him in the future. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. As to whether I agree with him, I'm not sure I even understand him!

[trojan]

I believe that the blessing of to have a horse being a gift from the Ancestress must be understood as an allusion to the relevance of experience with significative women in early stages of guys developpment.

Horses, as animals, belong to the Great Godess.

yours,

Charly


Why should this have anything to do with a guys early stages of development ? Are you trying to superimpose Freudian theory over the Yi - please say not :eek: If a woman asks a question and gets this line why would it refer to some guys early development ?

Why do horses belong to the great goddess ? Surely horses belong to the Great Horse

[charly]

Why should this have anything to do with a guys early stages of development ? Are you trying to superimpose Freudian theory over the Yi - please say not :eek: If a woman asks a question and gets this line why would it refer to some guys early development ?

Why do horses belong to the great goddess ? Surely horses belong to the Great Horse


Troyan:

I'm speaking from my own point of view, of course. I apologize.

Freudian theory gives primacy to paternal influences over maternal ones. I believe there is a woman in earlier stages of girls and guys, maternal care is responsible for healthy development of both.

If a girl gets H.35 can read mare instead of horse, 馬ma = horse is generic, do not specify if male or female. In chinese mom is mama, doubled horse.

In ancient mythologies all the animals belong to the Great Goddess, think at Diana the greek hunter goddess, think at the Force tarot card, a lady opening the mouth of a lyon. Maybe the firsth steps of tamming domestic animals was work of women, caring for wounded wild animals, feeding them in times of scarcity.

I believe that in the YI are stratified meanings of different antiquity, maybe the Royal Mother or Ancestress is a remnant of matriarchad.

Poins of view:

Matriarchal: Primeval Mother mates a she wants.
Patriarchal: mates are regulated by economical interests.


Whoever horse breeder knows that for a healthy herd it's of higher importance to care both stallion and mare. They cannot mate as they want. They are presented eachother, no freedom for to choose.

To give freedom to the horse or to the mare is for a breeder a bizarre behavior indeed. Maybe more appropriate for a knight or a lady who has an intimate relation with the horse/mare and can get identified with him/her.

The advice of to increase the herd is something obvious from the economic point o view.

The advice of giving freedom to your horse or to your mare is something more esoteric, has more hiding meanings, I believe.

The reader can choose.

Yours,

Charly

[charly]

Hi Charly,
Those aren't my words but a quote from Wilhelm. I usually post not only his translation of the line but also his comment. I can't get back into my posting now give him credit, but i will make a point of crediting him in the future. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. As to whether I agree with him, I'm not sure I even understand him!

Rosada:

I know when you quote W/B. I only ask if you agree with the interpretation. I believe that in this case is pretty forced. Some times I'm not sure if I understand myself.

Yours,

Charly

[rosada]

Hi Charly,
I don't know Chinese or any of the more esoteric meanings of the symbols. I can only rely on my own experience to try to figure out the meaning of the hexagrams. For example, while we've been focused on hex.35 I got to watch the video Purple Rain for the first time. The storyline is worthless but the last 10 minutes when Prince actually performs Purple Rain knocked me out. I re-ran the segment three times. Then I noted the words of 35's JUDGEMENT:
"..the powerful PRINCE ..in a single day..is granted an audience three times."
Too cool. So from there I figure, okay, maybe being granted an audience isn't about how fortunate the prince is to be allowed in, but about how really taken the ruler is with the prince's efforts. Whatever. Anyway, as I say I don't know Chinese so I'm going by my experience.
So in keeping with this method I then turn to see what 35.2 might mean in relation to what's going on in my life as I focus on it. Well, my neighbor whom I love, had to leave her abusive husband and go into a shelter. I can't call her but have to wait until she can call me. Today I got a phone call from a mutual friend, someone she had known before we met, an ancestress, who had a message for me from my friend. Thus i plug this into 35.2:
Progressing but in sorrow - going on, but sad I can't connect with my neighbor.
Perseverance brings good fortune - reasurance that I will eventually hear from her.
Then one obtains great happiness from one's ancestress - I hear from her through our mutual friend.

So as you see my interpretations of the I Ching are only for me. But even so, perhaps my take on the lines can be useful for someone else because all talk about the hexagrams is useful for help in memorizing the words.

[rosada]

35.3
All are in accord. Remorse disappears.

A man strives onward, in association with others whose backing encourages him. This dispels any cause for regret over the fact that he does not have enough independence to triumph unaided over every hostile turn of fate.

"All are in accord," because there is a will to go upward.

This line is quite close to the upper trigram Li, clarity, hence misunderstandings are cleared up. Since it is at the head of others of the same mind, progress is possible for it.
-Wilhelm

[charly]

Hi Charly,
I don't know Chinese or any of the more esoteric meanings of the symbols. I can only rely on my own experience to try to figure out the meaning of the hexagrams... So as you see my interpretations of the I Ching are only for me. But even so, perhaps my take on the lines can be useful for someone else...
Rosada:

Of course, your interpretations are not only for you, surely useful for others. I believe that there are many common aspects between your approach and the mine:

You apply as main principle the consistency with personal experience and emotions, me too.

You like female solidarity and reject abusive persons, me too.

You know nothing of chinese, me pretty nothing.

The only difference maybe is that I don't trust all the things W/B say mainly in the added commentaries.

I believe, against W/B that Higher Status persons (Superior Men) are not main protagonists in the YI stories.

Maybe main protagonists are «Equals», members of some brotherhoods: lower nobility, shamans, neghbors, women, children, animals, plants, friends, parents, and of course, elements. I find most of them in your posts.

Yours,

Charly

[rosada]

Well thank you, Charly! As I said, I don't think I understand enough to disagree with Wilhelm, but I do consult other sources to get a wider understanding. I am trying to memorize Wilhelm's words however, I guess because he is so succint. Actually I am considering starting a thread one of these days on the trigrams. When you understand the trigrams suddenly the hexagrams make much more sence.

Personal experience the other day with with

35.3
All are in accord. Remorse disappears.

A friend came by and told me she is joining Weight Watchers. Wilhelm points out specifically that this line points to a situation requiring group support to master.

If anyone has further thoughts on 35.3 now would be a good time to post them. I'm intending to post 35.4 this afternoon so we can get to 35.5 on Christmas.

[trojan]

I never take 'superior man' as talking about a 'higher status person' it is just a model for ideal behaviour of one who is acting in accord with the flow of the times - it never crosses my mind to think it as any type of person

[dobro]

I never take 'superior man' as talking about a 'higher status person' it is just a model for ideal behaviour of one who is acting in accord with the flow of the times - it never crosses my mind to think it as any type of person

Yeah, me too, but remember how flexible the Yi is. Depending on the situation and depending on the understanding of the person using it, it *can* refer to an external authority figure (whether that authority is merely one of power or hierarchy, or whether that authority is one of real capacity and higher awareness). I like to keep my options of interpretation open, but these days I usually opt for the inner dimension of the meaning, and take 'superior man' to mean my own higher faculties - higher emotional center which deals in things like compassion and gratitude, for instance, rather than the lower emotional center which deals in things like fear and desire and anger.

So, whether you more self-determining, or whether you're more of a follower who takes their cues from established authority, the Yi's useful.

In this way, the Yi is useful for all sorts of people, at all sorts of levels, for all sorts of purposes, inner and outer.

You strike me as a strongly individual sort of person who is familiar with inner issues, so it comes as no surprise that you don't reach first for the 'higher status person' interpretation. Taking it as 'one who acts in accord with the flow of the times' is a picture of the higher self, which lets go of ordinary ego consciousness and manipulations in favor of witnessing things unfold, letting the universe act through you, accepting it. It's taking a step toward Hex 2 behavior, which is getting up there lol.

[rosada]

35.4
Progress like a hamster.
Perseverance brings danger.

In times of progress it is easy for strong men in the wrong places to amass great possessions. But such conduct shuns the light. And since times of progress are also always times in which dubious procedures are inevitably brought to light, perseverence in such action always leads to danger.

A hamster gets into danger through perseverance; the place is not appropriate.

This line is at the top of the trigram Ken, with which the rat and other rodents are associated. Rats and hamsters hide themselves by day and are active only by night. But the line is already in the trigram of the sun, whose light it cannot endure. Sine it is a time of progress, the line mingles with the crowd and joins in what is going on. However, this is not its proper place (a strong line in a weak place); therefore going on in this way brings danger (the line is also the middle line of the upper nuclear trigram K'an, danger).

[rosada]

Only memory tip I can share here is that we got a video of Ecuador. We were still flirting with thoughts of possibly moving there. The film included scenes of a lavish banquet:

"Progress like a hamster."

The main dish was guinea pig, and as I understand it, this is often the main dish in that country.

"Perseverance brings danger."

Therefore, I think we've persevered long enough with the idea and I don't need to know anymore about it.

[my_key]

35.4
Progress like a hamster.
Perseverance brings danger.

In times of progress it is easy for strong men in the wrong places to amass great possessions. But such conduct shuns the light. And since times of progress are also always times in which dubious procedures are inevitably brought to light, perseverence in such action always leads to danger.


As you are climbing the progress ladder you collect an awful lot of skills, knowledge and abilities which if there is a tendancy to squirrel them away will be wasted. Continuing in this manner will trip you up big time. I also get a sense here of "Jack of all trades and master of none" and "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" - at some point there is a need to settle on one thing and see it through to completion. Especially if you are building a light-house.:)

Love and Hugs

Mike

[charly]

I never take 'superior man' as talking about a 'higher status person' it is just a model for ideal behaviour of one who is acting in accord with the flow of the times - it never crosses my mind to think it as any type of person
Troyan:

Of course, me too. But W/B say «superior man». Maybe they want to say what you think.

It was not my intention to polemize about the JunZi concept but to point that sometimes the less important actors can be the true protagonists. In H.35 the protagonist can be Kang Hou (the Prince) or can be the horses. Why to imagine things about a King that is not in the text?

Maybe you have your own story for H.35, could you share it with us?

Yours,

Charly

[rosada]

Good morning and Merry Christmas everybody! I'm just going to squeeze in here and post 35.5, which by the way, I think can be read as a very suitable responce should someone be wondering, "Ought I stick with the diet today?"

[rosada]

35.5
Remorse disappears.
Take not gain or loss to heart.
Undertakings bring good fortune.
Everything serves to further.

[charly]

35.4 Progress like a hamster. Perseverance brings danger...

Rosada:

from Tony Saroop:
Advancing like a hamster,
Cheekily, and injuriously chewing all -
DANGER.

I'm left wondering how the Zhou knew so much about hamsters. Did they too keep hamsters as pets?
See: http://web.archive.org/web/20020726081746/www7.gateway.ne.jp/~saroop/realsade/yijing08.htm

I go to search for the Harmen page, he is fond of Shaughnessy «Mole Cricket» if I remember well.

Rodents or bugs, both a pest form the economic point of view.

Yours,

Charly

[rosada]

Thought I'd post my own summation of the 35. Progress story here.

I'm seeing Progress as being about the easy progress that is possible when people see each other as equals and ideas are allowed to run free. The image of Progress says the superior man himself brightens his bright virtue. This is quite an encouragement to be oneself, speak up, not be waiting for any one to grant permission. Line one always discribes the situation before it begins, thus 35.1 discribes the uncertainty one feels before the sence of group acceptance kicks in. I visualize a party goer coming up to the door, not knowing who will be there, not sure if they are dressed appropriately and yet confident they were invited and ultimately belong there. 35.2 is about this sence of separateness being overcome when people look for what they have in common, like a mutual friend or relation. 35.3 The wonderful sence of belonging that now kicks in, and who cares if they weren't able to make the connection with out a little help from the host or the ancestress? We're all family now. 35.4 Old habits die hard and particularly in this aura of total acceptance our flaws seem to become even more obvious. 35.5 But who cares? What was shameful in private now seems only silly. Take this moment to see the big picture.

[rosada]

35.5
Take this moment to see the big picture.

Has everyone seen Listner's post over on Open Space? WoooWhoo!

[charly]

35.4
Progress like a hamster.
Perseverance brings danger.


Harmen says:

The shishu 鼫鼠 animal in the fourth line of hexagram 35 is most often recognized as some sort of rat, mouse or hamster. Even in old China there was speculation about the true meaning of this word...
The fact that both 鼫鼠 and 炙鼠 are different names for the mole cricket convinces me that line 4 of hexagram 35 also refers to the mole cricket...

From: http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/categories/3-Character-analysis
Search «THE MOLE CRICKET» chapter.

Charly

[my_key]

35.5
Remorse disappears.
Take not gain or loss to heart.
Undertakings bring good fortune.
Everything serves to further.

If you want to have a good time ...... Let things flow. Don't try to hold onto possessions, thoughts, emotions or anything. Out with the old and in with the new. Leave behind all your baggage and get out there and start taking some action. If you follow this advice you can't go wrong.

Mike

[rosada]

35.6
Making progress with the horns is permissible
Only for the purpose of punishing one's own city.
To be conscious of danger brings good fortune.
No blame.
Perseverance brings humiliation.

Making progress with the lowered horns-i.e., acting on the offensive-is permissable, in times like those referred to here, only in dealing with the mistakes of one's own people. Even then we must bear in mind that proceeding on the offensive may always be dangerous. In this way we avoid the mistakes that otherwise threaten, and succeed in what we set out to do. On the other hand, perseverance in such overenergetic behavior, especially toward persons with whom there is no close connection, will lead to humiliation.

[my_key]

35.6
Making progress with the horns is permissible
Only for the purpose of punishing one's own city.
To be conscious of danger brings good fortune.
No blame.
Perseverance brings humiliation.


Hi Rosada

To paraphrase - here's my take on 35.6

When you think you are on a roll you may be tempted to act aggressively or blown your own trumpet in order to make further progress. You may get away with this once in a while, with people that you know who are aware of the success you can achieve. What's more important is that you are aware of what you are doing and correct the behaviour before it goes too far and affects people who you do not know so well. If you start believing your own press then you are going to get knocked off your perch.
A sort of pride comes before a fall type of situation. If you can keep the ego in check / keep your feet on the ground then you are on to a winner, otherwise watch out because, sure as eggs is eggs, life is going to trip you up.

Love and Hugs

Mike

[ravenstar]

In regard to......

35.6
Making progress with the horns is permissible
Only for the purpose of punishing one's own city.
To be conscious of danger brings good fortune.
No blame.
Perseverance brings humiliation.

When I looked at 35.6, my mind visualized a bull-dozer (horns, fierce pride) which can be used for positive purposes to forcefully dig what is old and outdated and create and prepare something mew…..but when used aggressively, its constructive ‘good’ script has been changed to suit only the controller. This can overwhelm and make life miserable and tense for families, friends, and surrounding neighbors. The people it seems are at odds with the driver’s efforts. This can make him/her fiercely defend their honor….and alienate themselves from the people.

If we are consciously aware of ourselves and others we can begin to attract genuine and influential people who will support our creative and motivated ideas. But if we persevere with ‘horns down’ (delusions of grandeur?) our original ideas and interesting projects could end up with the rug being pulled up from under us. We not only lose our footing but our credibility. We could become disillusioned, feel shame, and humiliation as well.

With Best Regards,
ravenstar

[rosada]

Thanks for these comments Mike and ravenstar! Wish I'd read them a few minutes ago. I just gave a poster promoting some I Ching video the benefit of my opinion. Occurs to me now I probably should have just left him alone. And I wrote it on Quick Reply so now I can't erase it. ..hmm.. I guess I should go into hiding for awhile. Fitting lead in to Darkening of the Light... :bag:

[trojan]

Thanks for these comments Mike and ravenstar! Wish I'd read them a few minutes ago. I just gave a poster promoting some I Ching video the benefit of my opinion. Occurs to me now I probably should have just left him alone. And I wrote it on Quick Reply so now I can't erase it. ..hmm.. I guess I should go into hiding for awhile. Fitting lead in to Darkening of the Light... :bag:

No why should you go into hiding because of your comment there ? I appreciated it because what you said was true and it wasn't a malicious comment - so come back out please :D (I mean he has posted 5 identical posts, incase we hadn't got the message, so s/he shouldn't be too surprised at some kind of response )

[ravenstar]

No why should you go into hiding because of your comment there ? I appreciated it because what you said was true and it wasn't a malicious comment - so come back out please :D (I mean he has posted 5 identical posts, incase we hadn't got the message, so s/he shouldn't be too surprised at some kind of response )

I agree with trojan, rosada! Do come back out!

With Great Respect
ravenstar