Can the Yi speak of the future?

[elizabeth]

Today I asked the Yi if I follow its recent advice to me (to go slow and steady, be small and meek, go inside myself and work on my inner strengths, proactive internally but only reactive externally)?if I do this, will I have a romantic future with the man I think of now. It replied:
58.1.2 --> 45.

Can someone confirm that this is not a positive comment, it does NOT mean "yes"?
I read 58 is quiet self contented joy. I'm trying to tell myself that our separation now is temporary and that he will come round in the new year, in 2006. Would this toss confirm it? Also 45 suggests working together harmoniously? he phones rarely now but I asked this about the long haul. In other words, if I do the inner work needed, will this be my reward?

I am having a hard time not contacting this person. I asked "should I suggest we meet before Dec. 15?": 6,Conflict, *all lines changing* !! --> Darkening of the Light. I take that to mean not to suggest meeting him under any circumstances. Right?

I asked if he phones, can I hint I miss him (I have gotten Preponderance of the Meek/Small often lately and I take that to mean something close to disappearing, not initiating)?
It told me: 50.1.6 the cauldron, changing to 34 Power of the Great.

Can I phone just to see how he is? it gave me 55.3.4 to 24 unchanging.

Will I see him before my departure? (i will be out of the country for 2 weeks, but haven't seen him in 2 months and want to before the year ends).
Result: 40.2.3 Deliverance to 62 unchanging. Preponderance of the small.

Can someone confirm my interpretations or shed light on these? I seek hope that if I "persevere" on this difficult path of separation, that things will right themselves in the New Year --specifically with him.

[matt]

Elizabeth, I really feel for your situation, you are going through a tough time at the moment. Its never easy parting with something so dear to the heart, and all of your thoughts about inner soul-searching show you have a natural strength to grow as a person. I have found myself in a similiar situation before, not knowing which way to turn, hesitant of the 'correct' path to follow. It can feel like you are swimming against the current in a huge ocean of emotion.

The I Ching can provide such clarity in our lives, but only when our minds are uncluttered of thoughts. Trying to establish direction through using the I Ching when we are full of doubt and uncertainty can often serve to confuse us even more. I admire that you feel you should work on your own inner world for the time being, it is a truly great gift when we can journey inside ourselves, and nourish our weakness by using our strengths. You should do this for you though, not for anyone else. The only reward you are likely to receive for your own inner work is the reward of knowing yourself better. And when we know ourselves better, we can give to others more of ourselves, we can shares our gifts of understanding with them making our connection deeper to the world around us. So, do this for you, without any thought of reward, and then you may find what you need.

Elizabeth, the beauty of life comes in many forms - to be brave when you want to fold, to say little when you want to say much, to trust when your heart is sad, and to let go when you want to hold on dearly. If your mind cannot decide what to do in your situation, and if the I Ching only furthers your confusion, then do the best possible thing any can do in this world - follow your heart. If you FEEL you want to call him, then call him. Whats the worst that can happen? He will tell you he doesnt want to meet up with you, but then you will know. If you are afraid to contact him, then do it, do the things you are afraid of, these things are the way of the heart, to be brave in the face of adversity.

My best wishes to you, remember, try not to analyse your situation anymore, just do what FEELS good for you, then whether you meet triumph or disaster, you can be content that you followed your feelings http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[elizabeth]

Matt,
Thanks for your reply. I dont know that doing what feels good is right, because before, I would call if i felt like it, or agree to meet up at the last minute if I was free. The results were always positive...but some say that I was too available and hence his disappearance. Others say its not due to that at all.

Now, after reading about relationships, I think I did the wrong thing, that I should have done the opposite. Acting on what we feel isnt always correct so now I'm trying to do the opposite: I want to call, so I dont. I want to tell him how i feel, but I'm silent. I want to suggest we meet, but I dont.

In sum, I dont trust my feelings, because they *may have* (may have, I am not sure) caused him to disappear. So I'm looking for the I ching to tell me what is correct behavior now. I cant afford to take any risks... :-(

[bruce]

(echoes Matt's well said thoughts)

It's good to ponder and introspect, but it's also best to let your truth be known to the one you're inquiring about. After all, if you're looking at this guy as a serious potential partner, openness and honesty is the only basis for exchange. There's nothing in these readings that I can tell which says to withhold your true feelings from him. Everything points to open exchange.

Btw, consider 62 as meaning 'working on details', on the little things. It does not always suggest being meek or introverted.

[elizabeth]

I had inquired of this man on Sept. 6 if we were friends or more. In my book, the question itself presents my interest. (That and the stupid mini speech that spontaneously spilled out of my mouth about how love is a risk, ugh).

He has phoned about once per week since then but not once asked to see me.I know it sounds like i'm stupid...but I have feelings for him and keep thinking/hoping. I phoned him last week to wish him a happy birthday. I haven't heard back...

So I assume withholding feelings at this time is best. But how does 62, working on details, fit in? Maybe working on the friendship? phoning him once in a while? (before the bday call i have not been contacting him myself, except to return contacts from him..i've been treading verrry cautiously). I'm already trying to work on myself, find myself without him in my life (against my heart's desire), but i fear my correct steps are for naught. I would still love to unlock the mystery in these readings.

[magdalena]

Hello Elizabeth, I don't often comment on postings as Im relatively new to I Ching but I thought I will make an exception in your case as I can see similarities in your behaviour now and in mine in the past.

I was in your situation some time ago and I remember feeling quite insecure and unable to trust my own judgement. When someone you love or are fond of distances himself from you it can be really frustrating and upsetting. I remember thinking so much about it that at the end I became a nervous wreck. The more insecure I became the more I consulted the Yi, the more confusing the hexagrams became.

I guess your advice here really is to step back and look at yourself again. Are you pushing too hard for something that isn't right anyway? I believe that if you meet the right person you should be able to be yourself and not be afraid of that. If I were you I would forget about anyone else for the time being, if it is right it will come back to you anyway, and build up your "inner strength" again whatever this means to you. To me it was for example making sure I looked and felt good so I started going to the gym, changed my diet, lost weight, started meditating etc. This is just an example, it could be something completely different but just focus on yourself for a while and get your confidence and inner calm back. Whatever is meant to come will come. Trying to control it might only delay it happening.

Good luck!

[millie]

elizabeth, i prmise you there is nothing you did wrong, or will do right, that will either bring this man to you or keep him away from you. it isn't about you. plain and simple. two people come together because they come together. it either works, or it doesn't work. i know you want to believe you can have more control over things than that, but you can't. none of us can.

let go. relax. BE WHO YOU ARE. this is what matt means when he says to follow what you feel. he means you should follow what you are. when you do this, really do this, the man meant for you will appear. he can't appear as long as you are constantly trying to be someone else. being someone else happens when you "do the opposite" of what you want, and you don't call when you want to, or you believe that you have the kind of magical powers that if you did or said the right thing that you could make someone feel something for you that they do not, or behave a way that they are not. you ignore other people's free will.

[rosada]

Frequently people will say, "I got hexagram number such and so ane I took it to mean ...." I suggest it would be helpful if the poster would actually write out the words of the translation they are working with. Writing out the meanings of the change lines here would not only provide those of us reading the posting with the translation the seeker is working with, but also if a poster is making referances to multiple hexagrams and change lines, they may find readers more willing to engage if the poster has provided the info here and isn't requiring the reader to look the lines up.

And of course something magical happens when you write the words, they get transfered into 10,000 other places in your brain and understanding seems to be enhanced.

Reading it out loud can also improve comprehension.

[rosada]

People might complain, "But it takes so long to write the whole change line out!" This is true, but the advantage to this bit of torture is you are actually saying to your unconcious, "Explain this hexagram to me or I will force us to sit here while I write it out word for word. " With that threat in mind it's amazing how often the obscure text will suddenly become clear.

[jte]

"?if I do this, will I have a romantic future with the man I think of now. It replied:
58.1.2 --> 45.

Can someone confirm that this is not a positive comment, it does NOT mean "yes"? "

What do those lines actually show? Isn't it a picture of quiet contentment, the kind that isn't chasing after something outside, but is fulfilling and fulfilled in and of itself. Isn't that more peaceful and ultimately more rewarding than what you're going through?

Both lines have an auspice of good fortune - but you seem to be seeking a *specific* outcome. From what I've seen, those concluding auspices are rarely things we get to actually choose. (After all, we don't get to pick what bad luck happens to us, either.) Isn't the desire for that specific outcome actually preventing you from reaching the state where good fortune (of some kind) will come to you of it's own accord?

You asked "If I do this..." - Are you doing it?

- Jeff

[elizabeth]

Hello,
Wow, I am very grateful for all of the replies here. I will try to address each post. First of all, Rosada and others, my apologies for not including the line translations. It isn't a problem for me to type them out, and I have time to do so, I just wasnt aware that it was needed for others to help me. But duly noted and I promise to include those. In fact I will try to go back and post them.

Magdalena -- your point about trying to control this possibly delaying it... is duly noted. I'm trying to let go and see what (or who) comes (back) to me. Its hard but i'm trying.

Millie - thanks. you clarified Matt's comments for me, I was taking them maybe too literally the first time around. I have somewhat lost faith in myself that I no longer trust my instincts (since past actions didnt bring desired results...i must have acted incorrectly). I'll try to listen inside and be "me"... and see what happens.

Jeff - whoa. Your comment hit me like a dart. You're right -- no, to be honest, i haven't been doing it. It is hard to let go of the desire of that outcome that I think/wish should happen... and you're right, that nothing will come if i keep focusing on it. I have to let go. I too had read 58.1.2 as quiet contentment, and I suppose the Yi's answer is still elusive: meaning if i "do this", i will be quietly contented..but it doenst mean this man in question will be part of that peaceful situation necessarily (clever Yi!)

I have two connected struggles here: one is how do i act, based on the fact I have feelings for this person (i want to call, see him etc) and the fact the feelings arent being returned? (should not call, will feel humiliated). Second, the fact we do have or had a friendship, i figure I can phone on that basis...but again, I'm trying to rid myself of feelings for him, so that complicates the issue as well. (and part of me worries a call will appear as over interest to him, etc) The end result: stagnation in my actions and inner progress.

[millie]

"the fact the feelings aren't being returned."

you already have "over interest" for him whether you call or don't call. you can either keep the feelings to yourself, as you quietly work to release them and the rejection, or you can share them with him and risk feeling humiliated together with feeling the rejection. the choice is yours.

why do you need to make someone who isn't interested in you be interested? why waste time with someone who isn't interested? why do you find "not interested" attractive?

it's my sense your questions aren't about the guy. they are all about your disconnection from yourself, and your desperate need to fill the void. what you haven't realized yet is that you are right there waiting for yourself. that's the only way to fill the hole. it will never, ever, be filled by someone outside of you. especially not by someone you've had to convince, manipulate, strategize, or encourage to be interested in you.

i will say it again: his interest, or lack of interest, is in no way influenced by specific things you do or say. it's about overall chemistry and this you do not and cannot control. from out here it sounds like you are trying to try-on different characters to see which one gives you the better, more desirable results. this makes me sad. it also shows how disconnected from yourself you are. all you need to be, really and true, is you. not for the sake of seeing how it goes, but for the sake of being you because in the end it's all you can be anyway.

i really want to encourage you to seek out a women's development group of some kind. establish good, healthy relationships with women, which in turn will help you to development a better relationshp with yourself, and ultimately a good love relationship.

[lightangel]

Elizabeth,

IMO, the reason why you struggle so much with the "to call or not to call" question is that you still harbor some hope. If you knew for sure, for sure, that he doesn't have and can not possibly ever have feelings for you, you would probably not think of calling and it would probably be easier to move on, don't you think?

I think this is the main reason most people cling to hopeless relationships, there is always this internal doubt that if only.. if only! you could do this or say that and then their heart would open up as if by magic. Usually, this is not the case. Usually the signs are all there and everyone can see them except for those of us involved, clinging stubbornly to the dark. But it can happen, of course.

Because of this, though, I think that it will be best if you do call him. Bite the bullet. Risk humilliation by following your heart. If it doesn't work out, at least you will then find more peace in knowing that, for sure, this was a lost cause and that you did all you could do.

Wishing you the best.

[bruce]

"Isn't the desire for that specific outcome actually preventing you from reaching the state where good fortune (of some kind) will come to you of it's own accord?"

Poignant statement, Jeff. And too far reaching for the mediocre to conceive. To accept that as a truism would require belief in a Supreme plan for your life, or at least a consistent tugging in a particular direction; which can not ever be known fully, consciously.

So then, where is our desire for a specific outcome to reside? Or are we to simply live each moment without ambition, moving toward our future with no destination? Is our desire an ally or some fictitious hero figure?

[bruce]

Or perhaps some fictitious hero figure ally?

[elizabeth]

I have a complete analysis of 50.1.6 to 34 (and partly understand that toss better now) but it seems rather pointless, perhaps, to post that now.

Lightangel is correct, if i didnt think there was something more possible between us, I wouldnt be thinking about this or consulting the Yi on how to proceed, or if i can "proceed". The words he had said to me were "I haven't decided yet". But since that proclamation, his actions spell decision, as difficult as that is to swallow. I dont feel comfortable asking him anything in a phonecall though due to a fear of how i will appear (desperate/needy/clueless?)
It would be a huge enough step to simply phone and chat, but a normal talk would give me more hope too.

As Millie pointed out, I would rather keep the feelings to myself and continue working on releasing them rather than humiliating myself with any declaration or question to him at this point.

[Millie - i like the idea of a women's group. I'm actually living abroad though, in a foreign country where English is not much spoken. (I'm originally from the USA). I dont think that women's groups exist here (!!) but i will look and see what i can find.]

Bruce - I share your thoughts. In every area of my life, I have always set and accomplished goals. If i want something, I go after it. In nearly all cases I've succeeded based on willpower, self-discipline and ambition. Love/relationships are the one area that willpower, desire and determination mean nothing if the other person doesnt feel *exactly* the same way. We have no control. This is why I've turned to I ching: to try to understand the parts I can't control, so i can act better, and hopefully succeed better. It isnt that i want to manipulate someone else: it is that I blame myself for failures and think that if i had acted differently, the outcome may have been different and better in the long run.

While I believe in Fate and a supreme being and a larger plan... i have a nearly impossible time sitting and "waiting" for things to happen to me. I think this thread pretty much supports that :-P side of me. I would not know how to live life without ambition, desire, plans. I do however now, in my "old age" see desire generally as an enemy, not an ally, whenever it concerns anything but work/finance/real estate and other concrete but non-personal goals or activities. Desire in the realm of personal relationships and friendships is a recipe for disaster, I now believe.

I apologize that this thread has gotten off the topic of the hexagrams and their meanings, as it wasnt my intention -- though in return I've gotten some very warm, welcome, well-intended advice from everyone, and I cant thank you all enough for that.

[bruce]

Elizabeth,

Oh, I don't think you or anyone here has gone off track, at all. Your original question was: "Can the Yi speak of the future?" That has everything to do with either sitting and waiting, or making things happen. Or maybe both, each at its own productive time?

Like yourself, I have a hard time sitting and waiting, but I've also learned that it is a skill that assertive people do need to learn and develop. The yin to the yang, so to speak.

Funny example of this came from my son through email this morning. He's a budding guitar player and we talk quite a bit about such things. Here's a comment he made:

"Having problems with my ?slow rhythm? lately. I feel like Steve Martin in ?the Jerk? when he's snapping his fingers to the blues music.. totally out of sync."

Here's my advise to him:

"LOL, that's a funny image. Too much Yang, maybe (trying too hard, applying force, etc). Yin is more open and sensual than it is mind or will driven. It "allows" more than "makes" things happen. I have that same tendency when I play, and so I remind myself to relax and just go with it. That's when I typically play at my best."

No matter whether it's about romance or playing music: the balancing of these same two principles is the same.

[elizabeth]

Bruce,

Just came from watching a ballet and I too was thinking: this is the way it should be. the guy pursues the girl, the girl responds (or doesnt).

Your reminder to your son struck a chord w/me too. I suppose the trouble is in my experience, if i am being myself, my own Yin - reserved, quiet, observing, waiting but not acting or pursuing... NOTHING HAPPENS. And out of frustration... I end up acting. :-S

Somehow this has gotten twisted up in my life and i dont LIKE it that way. I'm actually not aggressive by nature; i'm an introvert, shy, quiet. I'm driven, motivated and intelligent...but not so intelligent in matters of the heart apparently!!

[bruce]

Yey! Sometimes you have to kick against something until you know what you're for!

and then, sometimes not...

I wonder though, if "nothing' is really happening while you quietly persevere. I know for me it sometimes feels like nothing is happening, but then I wake up one day somehow different, and not yet knowing how this new clarity or strength happened. I think that's just the way it is, where character growing is concerned. It may not fit into some of the other areas in our life we'd like to see prosper, but then what right do we have to complain about it, or to feel in any way remorseful over it? Everything is a compromise.

[ktb123]

Elizabeth,

Think of this forum as your women's group!!! Most of us that tune in are or have experienced the same sort of loss, and I am finding that the loss is ourselves, not someone else.

I am finding that, as I work through the pain, etc, of my own experiences, that my fantasies (read ego) now are more of him coming back to me, and me setting conditions, etc.. My fantasy is me rejecting him unless he can meet these conditions!!!! I have been holding onto an idea, which is fine, but he was just a symbol, not really what I wanted. If it were him that I really wanted, then he would have never have left. If I wished for him to "change", then how could he symbolize that idea?

Does this make any sense to you? I might be rambling, but it was an epiphany of sorts for me. I was actually fighting "letting go" and I caught myself doing it.

I asked today "What is at the core of my "holding on"?

The answer: 9.4<1

I read this as "I've created a mountain out of a molehill" in a way.

Be true
the bleeding stops
no harm is done
"A mind is no big thing to change, with a twinkle here, a discharge there, a wider horizon perceived or a little time to heal."

[jte]

"...To accept that as a truism would require belief in a Supreme plan for your life, or at least a consistent tugging in a particular direction..."

I can see why someone could see it that way. However, it might also be other things, such as:
- The normal (usual, statistically probable) result of the condition described in the line "all other things being equal".
- The advice of a higher intelligence that is aware of what will happen (*in the particular case*) if the advice is followed. (This doesn't *necessarily* entail a higher plan/purpose, although that could be part of it.)

There are probably other possibilities as well...

"So then, where is our desire for a specific outcome to reside? Or are we to simply live each moment without ambition, moving toward our future with no destination? "

Why the generalization here? A specific desire can often be appropriate, but isn't in this particular case... If the other person was actually responding, Elizabeth's interest in him would be a positive not a negative, no? (And she might have asked Yi about their relationship, but circumstances and question would be different - and so, we must assume ;-), would the answer.)

Just tonight, I asked Yi about a topic near and dear to my heart and indeed with a specific intent and outcome in mind... The advice was 10.4. So, in this case I'll follow it in order to (safely) achieve the desired result.


"Is our desire an ally or some fictitious hero figure? ... Or perhaps some fictitious hero figure ally?"

Guess that all depends on how someone views desire, no? For me, the personification doesn't give me much insight, but for others, who knows...

-----------

"I apologize that this thread has gotten off the topic of the hexagrams and their meanings..."

No need to apologize dear, this helps us learn more... I think a lot of folks learned a lot from this thread and people's many comments...

- Jeff




-

[bruce]

Good points, Jeff, all.

[bruce]

Jeff,

Yas got mes pondering...

If someone didn't believe in a universal intelligence or godly tugging, who or what would they be letting go to, in order to enjoy a better outcome by letting go?

Know what I mean? I was saying that in order to let go and let God (in so many words), one would need to perceive or believe in God, or universal intelligence, or at least a consistant tugging in that direction.

[yellowknife]

or one would need to believe in the wisdom of a Self that wants and needs to actualize?

[elizabeth]

Bruce - you're right. An agnostic would have to believe in Self Improvement at the bare minimum. Otherwise belief in a Higher Being or religion would be the alternatives.

Wolverine, good point. But belief and actualization seem to me to be separated by a large uncrossable chasm.
++

I have spent the past year living abroad in a (Very) foreign country, pursuing one of my dreams. Although the dream has realized itself (although not to the extent I would like), i find I'm not 100% fulfilled by it. No job can replace the fulfillment i seek from a loving relationship, and in pursuing this dream I have been trying to distract myself from the need FOR a loving relationship. I had neither dream nor relationship before I left my home country and now I have one of the two. I partly told myself before this move that if I didnt find a relationship, at least this is the only way I can pursue my dream, so in any event something will come out of it. Now...I find that having a life partner is a goal. And it is an awful goal to have. I think it is the worst goal any human can have. (goal, desire, wish, dream, whatever)

I *know* that to find a relationship outside, one first has to have a loving relationship with oneself. In some ways I think i do, but feel beaten down by experience. That "beaten down"ness has taken a toll on my self believe and self esteem/worth, and I'm trying to get it back, but not sure how to go about it. When I met this gentleman, it was the first time -- ever in my life -- that I thought I had found a match for me. He was respectful and not pushy and in many ways quite like me. Things progressed slowly until one moment that they seemed to speed up and then stop that same day. And ever since things have not been the same. Aside from hours spent wondering and chastising myself for "what if i had acted differently in that one moment", I have a hard time letting go of what I thought I had: a soul mate and life partner. THis combined with being alone in a foreign country is a lot to bear right now.

That is, I assume that the core problem is my faith in myself and self worth. But I dont know how. People have said to do what makes you happy. Focus on yourself. Well -- honestly, there isn't a whole lot that fals into that category...I'm pursuing my dream already, and that isn't enough. When I think of happiness I think of this person and I have to disassociate the two items. I miss him and wonder why he does not miss me. Often I think I'm the only person on the planet with a soul, a heart, and deep feelings. And I wonder why this man isn't hurting as I am.

[elizabeth]

Side note: Out of curiousity, i just asked the Yi to "tell me something about this man". It gave me 51. Arousing Thunder/Shock, twice. Does this mean I would be shocked if i knew the truth? Or does it mean he is in shock, being shaken up? (ha i doubt it) Or does it mean despite appearances, there is thunder inside him? Or, it is an embodiment of what he does to me: upsetting *my* inner peace? I had asked "tell me" not "show me", so I assume this is a comment about him not an image of him.

[elizabeth]

And I asked it "please show me his heart." It gave me 34. Ta Chuang / The Power of the Great. Twice. Unchanging.

"The hexagram points to a time when inner worth mounts with great force and comes to power. But its strength has already passed beyond the median line, hence there is danger that one may rely entirely on one's own power and forget to ask what is right. ***There is danger too that, being intent on movement, we may not wait for the right time.*** Therefore the added statement that perseverance furthers. For that is truly great power which does not degenerate into mere force but remains inwardly united with the fundamental principles of right and of justice. When we understand this point--namely, that greatness and justice must be indissolubly united--we understand the true meaning of all that happens in heaven and on earth."

I asterisked the part that stood out to me. That perhaps he is acting without reflection now...

[bruce]

Elizabeth,

Are you familiar with LiSe's site? If not, you may find this interesting.

34 (http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_33-48/hex_e_34.htm)

[bruce]

Elizabeth,

I hear and feel what you?re saying. I sometimes feel very similar as you?ve described. It?s got to be tough being a stranger in a strange land; when what appears as love comes to you, and then steals back into the night like some sort of cruel dream. But don?t you think you?re being just a little hard on yourself? Nothing says any of this is necessarily a fault of yours. The contrary might be true. Many great people experience loneliness, and there?s likely a reason the two often go together.

[bruce]

Wolverine,

That's an interesting (and an inevitable) thought: Self actualization. But isn't Self, as it's used in this sense, synonymous with God, as in Higher Self? If not, then I'll ask you the same question I put to Jeff: Who or what would they be letting go to, in order to enjoy a better outcome by letting go? Even when using 61 - Inner Truth, as a model, the truth that is within, if it is indeed truth, will be the same (universal) truth that lives in all things. That?s a truth with no name, but its affiliation still connects to universal consciousness, or God. No?

[bruce]

See, to my thinking, and not saying it's right, even a self proclaimed atheist must believe in God, a god, Higher Self - whatever you wish to call it, before they can let go and "trust" that their fate is safe. Otherwise it would be like turning control of a jet plane over to a 6 year old. Although it?s possible to see a 6 year old as God, too. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[elizabeth]

OH my God.




Man of stone. You have no idea, no idea how that fits. The rest of the wording I dont know...but "man of stone", "strong and invulnerable"...that's him. Totally closed off to the possibility of emotional attachment...it fits. It so fits. And I think he thinks it is manly. I bet. I bet.


No, I had seen "LiSe" on several threads here and kept wondering "who is she". Ha :-) now I know. I have fallen onto that site from google searches myself...very handy.

Wait. Post thought. Maybe I just want it to fit. No human being is that way. Maybe he will melt into warmth and emotional proximity for the right girl (just never has in 32 years)...Oy.

[elizabeth]

OH my God.




Man of stone. You have no idea, no idea how that fits. The rest of the wording I dont know...but "man of stone", "strong and invulnerable"...that's him. Totally closed off to the possibility of emotional attachment...it fits. It so fits. And I think he thinks it is manly. I bet. I bet.


No, I had seen "LiSe" on several threads here and kept wondering "who is she". Ha :-) now I know. I have fallen onto that site from google searches myself...very handy.

Wait. Post thought. Maybe I just want it to fit. No human being is that way. Maybe he will melt into warmth and emotional proximity for the right girl (just never has in 32 years)...Oy.

Bruce: i dont want to be great and lonely. I want desperately to be meek, normal and not lonely!

[elizabeth]

Sorry about the duplicate posts. I wish I could delete the first one but .. i can't!

In all my thinking today, I asked the Yi to tell me why i should not have any hope about this man.

It gave me Hex 1. Creative, twice unchanging:

"When an individual draws this oracle, it means that success will come to him from the primal depths of the universe and that everything depends upon his seeking his happiness and that of others in one way only, that is, by perseverance in what is right. (...) each step attained forthwith becomes a preparation for the next. Time is no longer a hindrance but the means of making actual what is potential."

I would interpret this as: pursuing him or hoping for him is not "what is right" and therefore I should not have hope.

I then asked if i am on the correct path with my work and my writing. It gave me 2. Receptive. Unchanging twice.

THE RECEPTIVE brings about sublime success,
Furthering through the perseverance of a mare.
If the superior man undertakes something and tries to lead,
He goes astray;
But if he follows, he finds guidance.
It is favorable to find friends in the west and south,
To forego friends in the east and north.
Quiet perseverance brings good fortune.

Soo....
I should be receptive to creativity in my work? I should be receptive to different areas of work? I should not try to lead but let my work lead me? Other ideas?

[heylise]

Hex. 1 Heaven cannot be influenced. The dragon is the bringer of rain, but nobody can tell him when to rain or not, and nobody knows when the rain will come. Or not.

Hex.2 Earth is fertility, she gives it to all creatures without any distinction. That is why she can make this planet such a rich place. Seems like a great answer for your work.

LiSe

[elizabeth]

LiSe, nice to meet you online :-) And THANK YOU for the interpretation!

Hm okay so: Heaven cannot be influenced, and we dont know what is in its plan, therefore hope is somewhat pointless. makes sense.

I guess hex 2 is saying "yes, you're on the right path." Funny it often feels like workwise I'm stagnating too.

[heylise]

Hi!
Happy that it makes sense...
Might be that at the moments when it feels you are stagnating, you are not on the "hex.2-path".

LiSe

[bruce]

I wonder if Yi answered 'your hope about this man' or 'how to make hope'? If it answered the latter question, then it's saying to be creative in the task, to think outside the proverbial box, to engage your imagination.

Not meaning to go off on a psychology trip here, but isn?t it interesting that you find affinity to a man of stone, or possibly to men of stone? The ones who are emotionally distant?

[jte]

Elizabeth, getting readings like these, I'd recommend you pause, take a step back for a while and let them sink in. Maybe read through them a few times, let them gel, keeping the questions you asked in mind.

One thing I'm seeing -

"No job can replace the fulfillment i seek from a loving relationship ... I had neither dream nor relationship before I left my home country and now I have one of the two. Now...I find that having a life partner is a goal.

People have said to do what makes you happy... I'm pursuing my dream already, and that isn't enough."

Remember, 1 and 2, heaven and earth are necessary complements to each other, like Yin and Yang. So it sounds to me, from what you wrote above, like Yi is acknowledging that a fulfilling relationship is the missing, complementary piece to your life (at least the way you currently perceive/experience it - in your current mindset).

That's one insight, I suspect you'll find more if you let the answers gestate in your mind for a while...

I still don't think there's any guarantee you'll get exactly what you want out of this (as Brad is fond of saying "Perfect sincerity is no guarantee of success") but these readings would make me take serious notice.

- Jeff

[jte]

Hi, Bruce :-)

"Yas got mes pondering...

If someone didn't believe in a universal intelligence or godly tugging, who or what would they be letting go to, in order to enjoy a better outcome by letting go? "

I see your point + as you're aware, I have my own reasons for believing in a higher power of some sort. But, there's all sorts of things that people might believe in.

A higher self is one as folks pointed out. Spirits/ghosts/angels/gods, not necessarily being God (capital G) is another.

Maybe for some a poorly understood, intuitive part of our brain that "knows" more than our conscious self. (I think Calumet, who used to post here, had a view similar to this.)

Perhaps for some, just faith in the Yi as a system - maybe the ancients found a way to understand/capture causality in a way that is hard for us to understand now. Perhaps physical causality, or, in the case in point (58.1.2) a social/emotional/spiritual intelligence (i.e., something like: when people are content in and of themselves, positive things tend to happen).

So, while your thoughts agree fairly well with my personal view, there's always alternative possibilities.

- Jeff

[elizabeth]

Jeff, you're right, I do tend to rush ahead. It's just, the mind..wants to know and there are so many questions! I'm trying to let this all sink in though. The idea that a relationship is the missing piece for me isn't news in fact. I've wanted one for over 2 years now and it isn't happening. *WHY* it isnt happening is my question and task to figure out.

Bruce - men of stone. I would add, experts at deception. I had two revelations last night unrelated. I asked the Yi what this man is looking for in a woman. It gave me Arousing Thunder/Shock! with the 3rd line changing and then "turning point/return". (I have the reading somewhere, just not handy right now). I took that to mean he is looking for the lightening bolt, lovestruck, in order to stay with a girl.

However.

Last night a mutual acquaintance phoned me and to make a long story short gave me information that proves this man is emotionally empty. He is now 32 and has had tons of beautiful, beautiful girlfriends. THe acquaintance told me that four years ago he had a girl that looked almost identical to me and had the same name even! They were together for a while and she finally asked why dont we move in together -- he out of his parents' house, and she out of hers. In the country i'm living in,common law marriages by default are de rigeur. Many couples live together and only register as marriage much later. She wasnt asking for marriage, just to live together. He said no and broke it off. I have other proof but the long story short is he puts on a front of being a "good guy" but all he is after is the quick fix. He doesnt want an emotional relationship with a woman, he has never had one. Once the girls figure this out and clue in, it is usually too late -- they're attached and he moves on.

Luckily for some strange reason he "respected me" too much to use me in the same way. It was eery how i got thunder/shock in the reading last night and then this friend phoned with more shocking news. I see this man in a completely different light now. But my fear is that he is going to keep to his word. He said on our very first meeting that he thinks it is best if marriages aren't planned, if the girl simply gets pregnant and then the couple gets married. My moral filter said to me "not ideal but i guess it can be done that way", assuming the couple is together out of love in the first place.

My assumption won't fly here though, as this guy doesnt pair up with anyone out of love! And what happens when protection fails and the girl he doesnt love gets pregnant and wants a husband? It makes me sick to be watching this happen and not be able to do anything to prevent him from hurting other women or messing up their lives (as well as his own). Maybe that is going to be his bad karma for not being able to feel anything emotionally, for using these women, he will be condemned to life without emotional depth?

Bruce, I recounted this to address your point: he appeared for the first three months to me to be the ideal guy: flowers, candy, dates, utterly respectful, the EPITOMY of politeness and respect. But withdrawn... Its part of the plan, and it works, unfortunately. I was fooled but spared. Others wont be...

[bruce]

Jeff, whew.. I thought I left it open enough to cover alternatives.

Elizabeth, let's see... He's 32, living with his parents, doesn't want to commit himself to a relationship, proposes marriage out of wedlock (if that's the way the cookie crumbles) - he's every woman's dream! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/mischief.gif Maybe it goes to show that flowers and candy and being polite are not evidence of sound character.

You know, I've always preferred an honest insult over a flattering lie.

[elizabeth]

Bruce - true. But flowers, candy, courting behavior for three months, versus saying "what do you say we go back to your place with a bottle of champagne" on date #1... are two different suggestions, based purely on appearances. I for one did not ever stop to think that gestures such as those above (courting) would be insincere or a mask for a man whose goal was other than a serious relationship. How are we to trust other people when actions are so deceitful? I'm not male bashing, this is an honest question. How are you to judge a person's character when initial behavior is perfect?

[matt]

Woh woh woh hold on just a minute guys. This has developed so fast. Be mindful of your thoughts Elizabeth. It has gone from holding hope in your heart for a potential relationship with this guy, and now followed to judging the man to be emotionally empty. But you still havnt spoken to HIM about your fears, only someone else. It really isnt fair to say he has no emotion based on someone else experience. Wouldnt it be better to ask or speak to the man about this, be open, honest and have trust in your own ability to articulate your feelings. Every person has emotion, every person has their own defence mechanisms, every person has their own weaknesses and strengths, and every person deserves a chance to be seen in a good light, to be seen for the goodness within them.

It seems to me it is far easier for you to dissipate your hopeful feelings by means of character assassination. Strong words I speak I know, but I have seen this situation many times before, and believe me, if you follow this pattern it will only create mistrust for you in any future man you find adoration with. The beauty of trust is about seeing through all the bad in a person, knowing the love they have in their soul somewhere, whether is be deep buried or more disguised than others care to see.

If you like him, dont judge him on his past, every man has made mistakes, as has every woman. A man without a woman is like a bird without wings, he may dream to fly, but at best he will jump high. A man with the love of a woman finds his heart flourishing, his wings spreading and then he can use his beloved heart to show her the way to their dreams together. Trust isnt a conditional ally, its an all pervading, all accepting friend. I know some people in my life who are seen in a very bad light by others, but I have seen the greatness within them, the fears lurking inside, and their best attempts to deal with them. And you still havnt spoken to this man, why would you want to learn more about him from another person? They are not him, they dont feel his emotions for him, or know his purpose.

Just be careful not to slip onto the road of mistrust, based on the easier road of non hope.

[elizabeth]

Matt, thank you for the kinder, gentler point of view. The problem is that this new explanation --and i grant you it is hearsay, but from a reliable source-- fills in far too many question marks from the past 10 months. Furthermore, the Yi keeps telling me not to contact him, to be meek;smallness furthers. What conclusion to draw other than that which is being put before me?

I have always given each person I meet the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. This man isn't phoning me now/ So even if he is the perfect man and perfect angel and perfect perspective partner: I'm not who he wants. (I'd say I'm not who he wants to "use" but that implies the negative interpretation you're suggesting i shy away from, so i'll leave it out). Me phoning just will show interest (if he is egotistical), and I'm not sure that after his not phoning me, he would tell me things about his inner fears/hopes/dreams/plans anyway, inso far as we are, when all is said and done "just friends".

If I interpreted your comment correctly, I should trust him, assume he is good and not bad as a person, and act as a friend to him? In all honesty, I want to give him a lecture on safe physical..interaction, and recommend he not go the "spontaneous" route with girls and pregnancy, but there's no way i can call out of the blue and say that, and who's to say he'd listen anyway. Its not my job to teach him anyway. I see him faltering/searching and I want to help, partly selfishly and partly bc I think i could help.. who knows.

You are bang on, that mistrust is easy to fall into after losing hope. I'm not quite sure how to combat it though.

[void]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

A man without a woman is like a bird without wings<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

What !!!

[bruce]

Elizabeth, perhaps it's time to revisit your first answer - 58.1,2 - 45. Draw yourself together (now with the new input) and find your own inner joy. Then your future exchanges will prove more fruitful; with him and with future associations.

My own unsolicited advise? Be brave and act worthy of yourself. That's the kind of woman a man has to respect, with or without flowers.

Best to you.

[matt]

Oops sorry Void, I meant to say;

"A man without wings is like a woman without a bird" *wink*

Elizabeth, I dont normally do I ching reading interpretations for others, and Im not going to start now, however I will say that your readings say no such thing as 'be small, meek, and not contact him'. And trust is not about ONLY seeing the good in someone, this qould be so very one-sided to completely ignore the darker side. I meant that its a persons weaknesses that can ultimately make us adore someone, the little things makes the big thing come alive. Love should always have friendship at its core anyway, the two walk side by side. But a friend is totally honest and direct when they need to be, they will say what needs to be said, act when action is needed. The problem is that when most people form romantic connections, they fear these direct truth exchanges for fear of driving the other person away, so a lot is left concealed and hidden. If we were to be ourselves, without fear of losing, then our connections would ultimately be deeper. We could say what we wanted to others (in the context of it being caring and affectionately expressed) and our spiritual growth would benefit.

Be true to yourself, be true to others, do not fear losing, and no too aware of gaining. Then all that follows is simple and pure like a young smile. The test of a persons character is not how they talk about themselves, but how they talk about others, which is why I never follow a 3rd party advice about a person if it is critical. I'll listen to it, sure, but it wont become my new view of that person. Hmm Im not sure what else I could say, Ive said about everything I can.

[bruce]

And about everything that needs saying, Matt. Nicely done.

[jerryd]

Elizabeth, to be flimflamed, hoodwinked and deceived all by someone you believed to be sincere, wheather it be for love or money. When one considers if they should do it again well the honest answer is yes.....but do it with a different person, and learn from growing older.

This has not been a reading just some friendly observations from accumulated experience.

[micheline]

Matt's pristine view of man is very beautiful. and no doubt true on a deep level. a beautiful soul lies beneath every exterior, however that doesnt mean it is ever going to be free to see the light of day in the current lifetime. this man who courted elizabeth probably does not intend to hurt and deceive.

elizabeth, i think you need to think back to when you met this man, and about the time you spent together. Unfailingly, the intuition tells us about who we are dealing with, and warns us of danger and deception. Flowers and politeness are merely the surface, intuition sees past this.

I am not saying he didnt seem 100% for real, but can you think of any kind of little sign you had,a gut feeling, reaction, nighttime dream, or clear but fleeting sense that things were not what they seemed? Sometimes we dont want to see these messages from the intuition, but they are always there. Intuition is part of who we are.

I wouldnt fear "not knowing" who is trustworthy in the future, just decide to ask for your own internal guidance to be more clear. keep a dream log. write in a journal daily. you will always know the truth if you do the "lowly listening."

[void]

Hey Elizabeth just to take your mind off things for a second take a look at Matts profile picture, hmmmm http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif Now a man who looks like that and says "a man without a woman is like a bird without wings" well you gotta listen to him - hmmm.

[matt]

Yes, please take a look http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[elizabeth]

Void &amp; Matt -- cute,very cute. :-)

Micheline -- You make a good point. I have looked back countless times to all of our interactions over the past ten or eleven months, and there were no signs, no gut reactions, no sense that things were not what they seemed. The only thing I noticed -- and it was not on any subconscious level --was that he wasnt spending the time with me that I would have liked. (I would have wanted more interaction w/him, but dont we always). Only one strange incident happened in April that until 2 weeks ago I didnt understand but was trying ever since that time to figure out. That's the only sign I saw. My own internal guidance has rarely been clear enough when it comes to men, unfortunately. It's not something I tend to be well in tune with, if I am at all. I take what comes and analyze it like crazy, and in this case I had to have a male friend spell out his actions in laymen's terms to me.

Matt - I agree with your point about friendship being based on honesty and trust. In all my relationships it is so, and I too live by this creed. You're right about fear of losing someone though; this man didnt open up to me on intimate topics and so I didnt open up with him, but I wish very much that we could have the kind of relationship where that was de rigeur.

In looking at my own actions, I have surmised that my enthusiasm in the past ended in some lucky times spent with this man. When I "turn it off"...this is what happens. (nothing happens!) I've gotten several readings (not posted on this thread, but done over the past two weeks) asking the I ching if i can or should contact him. Each time it gives me a blaring "no"...at least that's how i interpreted it. 55.3.4 is telling me to go inwards, not outwards... I asked how i should act now and got 62.4 (Preponderance of small) changing to 15 modesty. Last night I asked again, "should i phone him as a friend" and got 53.4.6 Arousing Thunder (shock is mired/ and Shock brings ruin and terrified gazing around. Going ahead brings misfortune.) changing to 27 unchanging, Nourishment. I took those as "do not proceed".

[matt]

Hey Elizabeth, what a wonderful morning this is! Sun shining, birds singing! I imagine it is quite cold in Russia, but hopefully you have blue skies to brighten the day. About your readings... as I have said before, I dont feel it is my place to tell you what they mean, because each of us have our own path and truth, but just to let you know about my experience with the I Ching and its readings - The Yi doesnt tell us what we SHOULD do, it simply informs us of how energy is moving, it highlights the pattern for us, and then we have to use our own intuition and observations to move forward. The Yi would never take away our free choices, it is simply there to enhance our understanding of the moment whilst the choice still remains ours. A 'negative' reading (something I dont believe in, but I need to say it because many do view some lines as negative) doesnt necessarily mean we have to NOT do something, it is just telling us about our own mental state right now, and how this mental state might influence events approaching us. If we possess a doubt when asking a question to the Yi, then the Yi will try to illuminate our doubt and show us why it is there. I dont see it as a 'future teller' or a book that tells us the 'correct' way, I just see it as a lantern in a dark cave, it provides light in the shade but we still have to trace our footsteps.

You know, often, if I have recieved a 'negative' reading, and I am struggling to find myself in it, then I do exactly the opposite of what it says, I follow the doubt so to speak. That way, I beging to understand my inner doubt in the outer world, and hey, if I make mistakes then they are good mistakes, because they have taught me more about myself. If we avoid the doubt, it never goes away. I know you are keen to follow a new way for yourself, to try to learn more, because you feel your over enthusiasm have maybe dampened the fires of romance in your past, but there is an extra element to this you havnt considered. When things are going great being two people, and they are loving the company of each other, then enevitably a doubt will creep in about how long this could last, will it keep moving forward with the same momentum and wonderful vigour? And it is this very doubt that is the reason for the dying of the flame, not the openness of heart/feeling and exuberance of enthusiasm. Suddenly every action you take in the romance is questioned - is it right for me to be so available? am I yielding too much? should I play harder to get? I really like him, but does he like me as much, maybe I should play it cooler. And there lies the cause, we are no longer living through the purity of the moment, instead all of our actions are over-analysed and tarnished with this self doubt. This is where the I Ching CAN be invaluable to us, because it will just tell us how our energy is moving so we can identify the source of our worries or the beauty of our joys. But the choice is still ours.

Live every day as if it was your first and last, every moment as if it was the only moment, its not our abilities, skills or intelligence that make us who we are, its just our choices. Im sorry if I have droned on a bit hehe http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif I am aware that I am quite young compared to most of the people in this community, and I do have less life experience and I still have a lot to learn myself! Maybe Im an eternal optimist. Or maybe a man with too many feathers http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[heylise]

28 - and so much wisdom...
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zen2.gif

[micheline]

agreeing with LiSe..
which galaxy are you from, Matt? i hope they send more of your kind

[micheline]

and...your feathers are sweet, but I definitely vote for putting your real picture back up on the profile

[void]

Hey I just saw it Matt, very funny !!!

[void]

Jerrys an egg !! Very articulate for an egg !

[elizabeth]

Matt ? I see your point. ANd I can't tell you how desperately I want to follow that track, and simply phone this guy and suggest hanging out. Live the day as if it were my last, so to speak.

But unfortunately, I am not sure it applies completely in my situation. That is, this isn?t a relationship of love where the love faded. It was something else that could have been love, that had the potential to develop, and my infamous question seemed to have put a halt to the whole thing. Whatever we have, or had, this man has decided for reasons of his own that it is not love &amp; that he doesn?t want to pursue me any more. ouch. Insofar as I have feelings for him that dont seem to be reciprocated, me running forward will probably bring only more "misfortune", as I'm trying to heal (and its not working very fast!)

But? let?s walk through both possibilities anyway. One is that I do not phone this man. I phoned him last 11 days ago on his birthday. Silence on his end since then. What can we conclude from that? We can conclude: I am not on his mind, I?m not important to him, he isn?t thinking about me and doesn?t miss talking to me. Based on his actions we can conclude this. He has been online on a dating site since then> he is looking for other girls. He isn?t thinking about me or wondering how I?m feeling.

I used to think ?oh he is afraid to phone me, he is too busy.? But I know that love conquers both fear and scheduling? Heck even friends take time to phone!

If I phone (as I did 11 days ago)?I open the communication waves. I again make the first step. He may be polite; probably he will be. We hang up, and (one option) he wont phone again. Or he might make an overture to meeting me without a specific time or date? or he would ask to see me. In any case, I would feel that if I hadn?t made the effort, I wouldn?t be seeing him and to me that removes some of the meaning from the meeting. I will feel that I?m doing all the work in this ?friendship?, especially if it is a one-off and he doesnt then toss the ball back to me with equal input. He may assume, if I phone, that contact from me is just another sign that I still have feelings for him. (in case it wasn?t clear, I asked this man if we were friends or more on Sept 6 and he said probably just friends, he wasn?t sure?and then said in order to have a relationship there had to be love (with a capital ?L?) and emotional attachment or else ?the girl ends up getting hurt?. He has not once asked to see me after that day. Before it, we were regularly seeing each other (apparently, only as friends but who knew?). If I phone, he thinks I?m phoning bc I?m hung up on him. He?s not about to come suddenly running towards me due to a phonecall. I can?t see any chance of that happening.

I want to think he respects me and is trying to move on and find his one true love. Or that his mother is pressuring him to be with me so he is balking and disappearing. Or that he is immature, doesnt know what love is, and something in him stopped him from "using" me and that sets me apart from the rest and gives me (false?) hope for the future. Part of me thinks he will not find Love, and that we need a close friendship and I want to work on that. But I can?t be the one pursuing the friendship after I put myself on the line in September. Can I? Maybe he thinks if we hang out I will take it as a sign of more than friendship, I don?t know. Maybe it is better to step back and let Fate play a roll. Instead of my enthusiasm creating meetings, I?ve been trying to step back and see what happens if I do nothing (well, nothing happens, as in every other area of my life, if I do nothing, nothing happens). That is, assuming that Fate will play some role in my life if I step back. So far though, nothing. Or rather, so far, 11 days of silence tell me fate doesn?t want me with him.

Over to you Matt ;-)

[matt]

Hehe, reading my own words again, maybe I have watched too much star trek http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Elizabeth, friendship is easy, its equal, it doesnt matter who makes a first or second move. The fantastic thing about friendship is its unconditional brilliance, people can just be themselves. Love without friendship is not really love, its an empty interpretation of love. So all I could say is embrace the friendship without any attachment to future outcomes. Even if you are not there to have a relationship with him, you may have met him for a fateful reason, there may be things you have to teach each other. By the way, Im not sure if anyone follows astrological information here, but Mercury, the planet of thought/communication has just gone direct again (started moving forward). It has spent a long time in retrograde (moving backwards in relation to the Earths orbit) So typically, this is a time when all those delays that have been going on in peoples lives start to get a kickstart to move again. New ideas form and its a great time for new communication. Hmm, yes I've decided, I have DEFFINATELY watched too much star trek http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[matt]

Oh, there is this saying I picked up from a movie I really like;

"The beauty of the Tango, is that if you get all tangled up, you can just Tango on"
(or something like that http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif)

Thats the wonder of life, tango with it, and it will dance back.

[elizabeth]

Matt,

After a night of restlessness, you brought a smile to my face. Thanks :-).

I also got up to see that this gentleman had phoned my cell last night. I'm a terribly light sleeper, it is strange I didnt hear it ring at all. I had strange dreams about strange random people, probably 5 or 6 dreams (like I said, little sleep). But I'm thrilled he phoned. I'll call back after work tonight, I am nervous as anything which isnt' good :-(.

I DO follow Mercury and had been following astrology for quite some time. I wasn't aware of this Mercury retro tho -- good to know that explains some of this!! Oh, and I dont think you watch too much star trek :-)

[jerryd]

The Egg is Peeping, chipping away at the inner core, embryonic I am, but born yesterday NO, this is a second comming for me. If age has an advantage it is only that walking the paths before you I have trod the grasses down. Unfortunately for us both it was not in your shoes, nor your feet in my shoes. But heed not the mistakes of others yours are yet to be made, persue thine own carefully expecting the same results as before, should you not have learned from the past. And oh yes, there is always the possibility of having the same outcome even if the road taken is differrent from the last. So let it be said all roads lead to Rome, sometimes......but always in our past.

You need to thank Void, for this little production from the Egg-O-Studio in lovely down town Perth Australia.

[elizabeth]

Hello again, after a short absence. I thought I would leave the thread to move on to greener pastures but find I have another question.
Ive still not spoken to the gentleman in question (two week, one day mark, today). I asked the Yi what about sending a card to his family (for the holidays). It gave me 55.3 -> 51.

55. F?ng / Abundance (Fullness)
The Arousing, Thunder
The Clinging, Flame
Abundance has success.
The king attains abundance.
Be not sad.
Be like the sun at midday.

The Image
Both thunder and lightning come:
The image of Abundance.
Thus the superior man decides lawsuits
And carries out punishments.

L3:
The underbrush is of such abundance
That the small stars can be seen at noon.
He breaks his right arm. No blame.

and 51, Shock.

At first i read 55.3 to mean I would be eclipsed (bad idea); then I read another post in which 55.3 suggests we can now see clearly ahead and the eldest son is in the lead. The gentleman in question is the eldest son, but in my family, i'm the eldest daughter.

51 always scares me. Like a warning.

Am i interpreting correctly?

[elizabeth]

I have disappointing news, and I wanted to update all those who helped me previously on this thread.

This gentleman phoned my cell phone a week ago and did not leave a message. As there was no message, I didnt phone back. He phoned again Saturday night and we had a normal conversation. Then, he said that he had phoned a week ago and thought I had left the country (he knows I am leaving for vacation in the US sometime this month). I said no, I'm still here. He said his MOTHER wanted to invite me to her birthday party. Which reminded me of his birthday, and I asked how it was. He said it was fine, they celebrated it at home. I started to say "thank you for the invitation" and he said "no, thank HER, it is her party and her invitation." I had to phone her the next day to decline the invitation since I had received it on such late notice and I'm preparing for my own trip. She said that he told her that I had already left the country. She said another reason for calling was she wanted to talk to me about my apartment buying procedure. I could see visions of my real estate issues becoming the topic of someone's bday celebration who i barely know! I declined and wished her a happy new year.

This gentleman didnt invite me to his bday but it sounds, if he is not lying to me, that he didnt have one. I am offended however, that he didnt bother to leave a phone message, send an email or an SMS to confirm my whereabouts, and instead told his mom I had already left. Not only that, but my departure was so insignificant that he didnt bother to find out when I was leaving, wish me a good trip or ask when I'd rreturn. (Even my friends have asked these things!) To me this spells he did not want me, for whatever reason, at his mom's bday party and also didnt want to take us all apartment hunting, which I had told him before I didnt need his/their help but was very appreciative of the offer (and i have already declined four times already bc i dont want them involved in my financial affairs).

I dont know how this man could have gone from roses in the snow and walks in the park and ten thousand photos of me, and summertime at the family's cabin...to not caring when I leave, not wanting to wish me well, doing all he ccan to stop his mom from contacting me, and, when he finally has to contact me for her, being so downright rude and mean.

I wanted to send him a holiday card but i dont think he would even care. I dont want to stoop to his level and NOT send one just bc he isnt acting like a decent human being. I THOUGHT we had friendship, at the bare minimum. That is what he said in September. I cant imagine what i've done to offend him, aside from not contacting him much the past month or two. I dont see that as reason to treat me this way though, and when we did speak i was very warm and friendly -- i could tell he felt that warmth.

I feel as if some veil has been lifted and what i'm looking at is the ugliest picture i've ever seen, and for the past 12 mos i was looking at something totally different. Why?

Can someone give me the positive slant on this? am i being overcritical?

[bruce]

Only positive slant I can see is "live and learn". Roses have thorns, and so does life. Look backward or move forward; it's a choice. Once the choice to move forward is sealed, you become free again. Until then, you are bound to the thorns and a few nice memories. Does it really hurt that good?

[jerryd]

YEAH...what Bruce said,

[lightangel]

Yeah!!
I love it: "does it really hurt that good?"!
But it's true, we all fall in love with our little pain, right?

[bruce]

It lets you know you're alive, at any rate. Why else would we do that to ourselves? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/crazy.gif That's probably why long marriages also makes long lives. You're not obsessing, flirting with 31, and have moved on to 32.

[lightangel]

We are all masochists, the human race!
But some long marriages can be painful too. A masochist's dream. You've never heard of long suffering husbands? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[elizabeth]

Ugh. I was hoping i was jumping to conclusions and he is still really my prince and this was just an "off day". :-(

Bruce, what did you mean, flirting with 31 and moving on to 32? did you mean my age or a hexagram (?)

[bruce]

Elizabeth, using large images don't always apply to particular relationships, but the idea was that studies have shown, for example, that men and women both live longer when in a committed marriage. This is a model of the enduring (self-perpetuating) relationship in 32 - in contrast with the flirtatious image of 31, where, there is a lot of wooing, romance, chocolates and flowers; though I think a truly fulfilling marriage retains a fair share of that.

If you're curious about this, contemplete the trigrams of each. 31 is the youngest daugher over the youngest son (or just young woman and man). 32 is the eldest son over the eldest daughter (or mature man and woman).

This isn?t meant to present marriage as any sort of solution, or to say one is right and the other wrong, but 31 and 32 are two different expressions of union between the sexes.

[void]

Positive slant - yes I think everyone gets involved with someone like this once in their lives - but I think its an experience not repeated because you're wise to it, you know the signs. Its good if it happens when your're young, then its out of the way and you can avoid those fickle people for ever and find some good loving. Comfort yourself with the thought that if he goes on this way his mothers about the only woman who is going to stick with him !

[bruce]

Funny you should say that, Void. I was just talking with my oldest friend (we go back 47 years), who introduced me to Yi some, mmm, jeepers, some 36 years ago. We were talking about the difference then from now, in regard to the Yi, Tao and such. Back then it was mostly ideas and feelings, discussions about how this is and what that means.

When older, if you've internalized it enough over a long enough time, and if this was a consistent and genuine effort, you become those thoughts and feelings, and maybe even those ideals. The best you can do then is to just be it, which is just being more genuinely yourself. Words in either direction just don't mean as much anymore, no matter how true or brilliant they may be. What others think of you also loses its significance. Or as my friend quoted: "Once conform, once do what others do because they do it, and a kind of lethargy steals over all the finer senses of the soul." ?Michel De Montaigne

And I agree with you, you do learn to avoid those people that hurt you. Part of 36, I believe.

[elizabeth]

Void, I'm 31.. not so young anymore. And I also didnt see any signs. I still dont understand what happened. Even if there were signs of the romance dying per se (or never being lit enough from the start?) that doesnt explain why the friendship has to die with it. I dont know if this guy is good or bad. I dont know if he set out to decieve or not. Aside from not knowing, my frustration lies not only in the loss of the friendship (as I interpret this last phonecall to mean), or my inability to control the outcome, but in the fact that I didnt see any signs and therefore do not know that I could prevent this again in the future. I honestly dont know that I could.

My biggest fear is that he will change drastically for the woman he loves, and I will be sad, still, that that could not have been me. That when he finds his love, or when he decides he does want a serious relationship (read: girlfriend), that he will put time, effort and thought into it, he will watch his every word and step, for fear of losing her.

What is it that makes a man realize the ideal woman doesnt exist?

And, what makes a man decide finally that he is done sowing oats and wants one life partner?

Bruce, its funny you mention long marriages. My "talent" lies in my durability. I can stay in a situation far longer than necessary, far longer than is healthy (and I have). Or you could reverse it to say I have a very hard time cutting bait and moving on; or else I dont "see" when it is time to do that until i've been whacked over the head a few times. I wish I didnt have this trait, I really do. I've also read that people who are married live longer, and in fact, this affects men more than women (men benefit on a physical health level from companionship with women more than women benefit from it). THEN WHY DOESNT THIS GUY WANT TO BE WITH ME SO HE DOESNT HAVE TO DIE EARLY? (ha sorry, kind of kidding, but i had to say that...)

[bruce]

Elizabeth,

Who ever said an ideal woman doesn't exist? The problem is that ideals can shift like the sand, in time. People grow apart because their ideals change. Or one changes but the other does not change along with them. Some are continuously changing their mind and focus, or can't make up their mind at all. Trying to keep up with that is like chasing the wind.

[nicky_p]

Hi Elizabeth,

"Who ever said an ideal woman doesn't exist?" As Bruce has said. It also popped into my head that you are indeed an ideal woman and he may very well be an ideal man - just not ideal for each other. Would you want to spend the rest of your life with someone who you couldn't be completely yourself with or they couldn't be completely themselves with you? Perhaps holding back a bit for fear of scaring him off? If he's that easily scared is he really for you? Someone is out there hoping for the same thing as you.

Big hug and love
Nicky
xx

[elizabeth]

Nicki &amp; Bruce, thanks.

The problem is, my head is so confused that I see it differently. "If he's that easily scared..." Then, my brain says "give me a chance to show him my patience, that he doesnt need to be scared." Whatever the argument is, my brain says "give me a chance"...

Part of my brain believes he IS the ideal for me, and its just MY sucky luck that he doesnt see that I'm his ideal. Part of me thinks, I have tons to offer, why DOESNT he want me? Part of me thinks, I'm deficient in some way that he needs, and if only i knew what it was, I would change it so we could be together.

And part of me, after so long, honestly does not beleive there is someone out there for whom I will have feelings as strong as I do for this man, and who will also feel that way about me. Its a dream at this point. I dont understand how married couples find each other. Honestly, I don't. It is too impossible.

[lightangel]

Hi Elizabeth,

That is the nature of romantic love. It's a disease, kind of. Lol. You feel like you could never ever love anyone again but believe me, that is not true. You will love again and chances are you will also be heartbroken again, that is the nature of the game..
He seems to be the perfect partner for you right now. But, the truth is, there are no perfect partners. I don't believe the ideal woman or the ideal man exists. And I don't think that your friend is looking for an ideal woman, I think he's probably just looking to remain unattached. If one day he finds the 'right' person, it will be just a combination of chemistry and fate and who knows, maybe his biological clock will be beating real hard by then.. but that doesn't mean that you are lacking in any way.

Love yourself. Be nice to yourself. Engage in a love affair with yourself. I wish I could promise you that you will find ever lasting love but I don't really know. I hope you do. But I can promise you that you will love again and you will have great times again. And you will, in due time, laugh at this little obsession you have now..

[bruce]

Angel, I think there's big difference between ideal or perfect and ideal and perfect for a particular other. I sure ain't perfect.. no how, no way perfect. But who is to say I'm not perfect for someone else who isn't perfect? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[lightangel]

Bruce, I'm sure you are as perfect as it gets.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif
All of us are, pretty perfect, no?

I think it's a matter of expectations. Yes, you can have a 'perfect fit'. But I don't think that, most of the time, you get a perfect fit right from the start. Sure, when you fall in love you think the other person is not just ideal, but perfect! But that doesn't last forever or else there would be no divorces and no heartbreak in the world.

I love what LiSe says about Hex 19 regarding love in some old thread:

"Hex.19 has to do with seeing and accepting the other just the way he/she is. Another way to translate Lin is 'oversee'.
I think it is an advice: accept him, and also accept yourself. Let him be how he is, and you be how you are. That is the way to near closest to each other."

That is the ideal, I think. The people don't need to be 'ideal' for each other, they just make their relationship ideal by accepting themselves and each other. But I don't think this is easy. It takes dedication, desire, and a lot of effort.

[bruce]

And love. You do believe in love, don't you? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/mischief.gif

[bruce]

Angel, I just have to say, what you said sounds to me like "be brave and tough it out, you must be dedicated to make it work, even if it kills ya, there's a light at the end of the tunnel here somewhere. Maybe God will reward me for it in heaven.. or something" You know, sadly, I was in a relationship like that, the last 25 years of 32 years of it. I would never do it again, and I would never call it a good relationship.

No, I believe in something much better than that. But you're right, it couldn't be perfect. At least not by itself. It would take time and work. But it would be nice to be in good company while working on it, wouldn't it? I think that's very attainable.

[pakua]

"That is the nature of romantic love. It's a disease, kind of"

I just heard about another study they did, where they discovered that being in love stimulates the same brain chemicals that are involved with addictions.

Interesting thing, the brain.

[void]

Elizabeth its my experience there are people out there who actually take pleasure in causing others a great deal of emotional pain and confusion. Its hard to take that on board when you first meet it because to most of us its pretty alien - we may cause others pain but we don't set out to.

I think there are people who get their emotional kicks that way. People who are very inconsistent, who build you up to believe you mean alot to them and then let you down. Who knows why they do it and frankly who cares - its their sickness, not your problem.

So your confusion and pain I think is a natural reaction to someone just simply actually being pretty nasty and hurtful. I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt in thinking hes acted in innocence !! But don't be confused - its not confusing. Hes treated you badly, you have been hurt, you are now going to recover and be happy after licking your wounds for a while.

Don't honour him with any more of your time ! Oh and get wary the next time a man buys you flowers.

[lightangel]

Hey! I do believe in love, of course.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

But I think that romantic love doesn't last forever. In fact, speaking of studies, I just read the other day that romantic love lasts for only one year at the most! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5675.gif

But it creates a nice firm foundation for real love. I didn't really mean to say that you have to tough it out. I meant more that you have to nurture that love, not just let it be there.. I meant that it is not very easy to accept yourself and other people just the way we are, because we have all this preconceptions of how the ideal man or woman should be and we want them to be that way and we want to be that way ourselves..

So, imo, it's not about an ideal person but maybe about a person that makes you feel in just the right way to love them completely in a very accepting way and that may even lead you to love yourself in such an ideal way! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

And yes, while you struggle, it's good to be in good company.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[val]

Pakua...

If you're talking about oxytocin, the 'cuddle hormone', which is stimulated by birth, sex and cold showers, it promotes love, but inhibits rather than promotes certain (not all) addictions, in which case love would be the cure rather than the disease.

However, it can promote inappropriate love such as pedophilia when overproduced in males in which case love would definitely be a disease.

That's the only chemical (hormone) I know of that's associated with both love and addiction, but I know so little, so, no doubt, there are probably others. If that's not the one you were thinking of I'd love to know which one you were because I'm so terribly curious about these things.

Thanks!

Love,

Val

[val]

Hi Bruce and Lightangel...

I see the different lights you're both looking at duration of love in. Lightangel, I appreciate everything you say about nurturing love... yes it's true... and I wish I'd had that kind of wisdom a few years ago... when I had a love worth nurturing.

Bruce is saying something else altogether, though, which I believe to be very important as well. I believe he's talking about the sense of honor, obligation, duty, whatever it is that keeps a person in a less-than-satisfying situation, in his case, for 27 years.

Having read bits of the story on the forum in the past, I personally feel, Bruce, you did the very best thing for everyone involved when you finally walked away. And I'd love to hear more from you about your feelings and choices... at the risk of prying into your private domain, I really want to understand why ANYONE stays and what they feel. Tell me to mind my own business if you want... I'll understand. Otherwise, I'd love to know what kept you there? What happened that you were finally motivated to leave? And how do feel now that you made the decision? (And anything that occurs to you I didn't and should have asked.)

Thanks so much for indulging me.

Love,

Val

[bruce]

Val, Oy! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Simply?

I was raised to "do the right thing". For me, there never seemed a choice as to what that meant. Add to this a spouse whose health continues to degenerate, to the point where it was up to me to keep her alive. This gave her license, she thought, to impose more and more of her responsibilities onto me, which I accepted, because "it was the right thing to do". This decayed further to chronic verbal abuse, partly due to brain damage she incurred from hypoxia during an asthma attack. Her true soul became bare, and I could not love that person. I couldn't kid myself anymore.

The divorce came because I could no longer hold up to her abusive way of treating me, and because I was literally coming apart inside. At that point, there was no other choice for me, if I chose to live.

In retrospect, I only fault myself. Leaving her would have meant I was a failure, and that's just bullcrap. It is also why my heart goes out to those here and elsewhere who find themselves in an abusive relationship, full of guilt and doubt that they are always the ones responsible for somehow failing. It takes two to succeed or fail. It always takes two. One, no matter how valiant the effort, can not carry it.

It's been five years. Or is it six? Many old hurts have been healed, and hopefully I'm better for the wear. I'm not angry inside anymore, and love has been renewed in me. I'm sure grateful for that.

Btw, I like how you described the difference between what Angel and myself was saying.

[bruce]

Two other things I'll mention, since I've already bared myself here, in case anyone can draw a lesson from it.

1. Since I moved her near her sister's home, where she bought her own condo, her health has improved dramtically, though her temperment has not. Turns out I wasn't helping her nearly as much as I thought for all those years.

2. While I'm again open to love, my personal borders have become much stronger as to what I accept or not accept. I've become more selfish, in that I require to receive from a relationship as much as I give. What a concept, huh?

[val]

In answer to No. 1. What a great illustration of 16.1.5... and I'm not surprised at all about the improvement in her health. I heard a similar story almost two years ago... from a man whose wife had a chronic illness and whom he took care of. After about 17 years of caring for her, she asked him for a divorce, and he granted it to her. But she still wanted him to take care of her (extreme 16.1.5). He met another woman and fell madly in love, but his ex-wife kept calling him to come take care of her, and he answered her calls because he believed her to be helpless and in need. The woman he'd fallen so in love with didn't like sharing him, and the relationship fell apart. He was heartbroken. Soon afterward he was made an offer he couldn't refuse that took him across country and consequently made him unavailable to help his sick ex-wife. Much to his amazement, once he was across country, not only did she survive... but she thrived!

It's amazing how fast these women recover when the pity party is over... isn't it?

In answer to No. 2... Yes... what a great concept.

Love,

Val

[bruce]

You are So right about 16.1.5. IE: 16.1, I was a really good guy. Everyone thought so, because I was so loyal. When I decided to end it, I was suddenly a really bad guy. And line 5, well, it speaks for itself. Very astute observation, Val.

Btw, her sister lives clear across the country. At least I didn't make that mistake. However, she's made herself impossible to live with there, and so she's moving back to Reno, near our sons. Amazing she's well enough now to move herself back there. Fortunately, as you probably know, I've since moved to Arizona. She's tried many times to get us back together. Each time it's the same - the slam dunk after learning just enough about my new life to somehow manage to use it against me. So I've said no more communication. She sends strange letters, pictures of my kids to evoke loving memories, etc. but I never respond anymore. Enough is enough.

Sorry to hear about your friend. Hopefully he's learned too.

This wasn't easy, spilling my guts here. But maybe it might speak to someone who needs to say "enough".

It's not enough to "do the right thing", if you don't do it for the right reasons.

[micheline]

Sounds like your self-worth made a grand entrance and took the reigns. It is often hard to reach the point where we can claim our own worth and say "no more" to lopsided arrangements where we lose our souls. BUt once we do, it becomes so clear.

Personally, i think relationships should be much more fun than work, and I think that is possible if you find a true "anam cara"...soul friend. a relationship that doesnt have to continually be pulled apart and twisted like taffy just for the sake of continuing.

when there is a basic rightness to the togetherness, it takes on a resilient life on its own, one nurtured more by communion and laughter and maybe even a good deal of contented shared silence/understanding. an anam cara is one to come home to. never a "make it work" type of thing.

[heylise]

LOVE

"more fun than work"
"an anam cara is one to come home to"

love it
LiSe

[bruce]

Agreed wholeheartedly, Micheline. Still chuckling at "pulled apart and twisted like taffy". Such an apt description of making work of making a relationship work. There are times, revolutions and such, when a relationship does need analysis and effort, but if it requires constant effort, if there is no natural joy from each other?s company, what?s the point?

[lightangel]

I just hope it's clear I didn't mean to say you should stay in a relationship because of duty, much less when it becomes abusive. I'm glad you were able to let go, Bruce, as I think it can be tricky to do just that, specially if they try to make you feel guilty about it.
Love should not be work and it should not require you to give up your self esteem. I just meant to say that us people are usually far from ideal but we can still love and accept each other and, in a way, that is more beautiful than finding and loving your 'ideal' mate..

[bruce]

It's clear, Angel. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[pakua]

Hi Val,

It was just a blurb on the news channel, no details or anything else.

On first thought, I was surprised when you said cold showers create oxytocin, but I remember when I was involved with a yoga group long time ago, and they kept urging everyone to take a cold shower every day. Those who were brave enough to do it said they felt great afterwards.

ABout love and work, the big question (at least for me) seems to be, at what point do you make the decision that it's too much? When love leaves? Difficult question.

[lexxmexx]

I am suffering exactly the same situation as Elizabeth. This person whom I interested in is someone I really liked and would like to spend the rest of my life with. I believe I had given my best but I just can't feel the reciprocation that I deserved (not in the very least). She doesn't like me to call her and she doesn't call me often. I did expressed my feelings openly and she is well aware of it but did not stop me. She said that she will choose me if she breaks off with her current lover. Their relationship seems to be on the rocks according to her but they are still living together. I am not trying to force a breakup between them. But it seems like I am being made use of somehow, I don't know. I tried to talk to her about it but she kept saying that my thinking wass too negative and why can't I look on the brighter side. How can I be positive when I feel that the relationship is so one-sided?

Till a couple of weeks ago, we still get to meet up a least a couple of times a week but something happened last Monday when I send an email ending with "I love you". Now I know how meaningful that Frank Sinatra's Somethin' Stupid song is.....I have not heard from her since...

Like Elizabeth, I am also 31 years old. This is not my first relationship but I can honestly say that this is the one whom I felt most strongly for. After questioning the I Ching and getting clarifications from some of the nice people here that a romantic relationship will not work out, I was totally devastated. I don't know if I can find another person that I will give me the same feelings as this. The hurt is so deep that sometimes I feel that even if another person this perfect and ideal appears again, I might still want to make comparison. I know that this is wrong but I just can't help thinking about it.

I really hope that someday something might change this person's attitude towards me and love my truly but can such things happen...?

Some of you might have read about my questions which I had posted in another recent thread. I will take this opportunity to apologize for my persistency in asking probably rhethorical questions which might have put people off as I don't see any more new replies.

Thank you hearing my grievances http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[val]

Hi Bruce, Micheline, LightAngel and Pakua...

I'm in tears right now reading your posts... but then I've been in tears since very early this morning when I consulted the Yi about all that you so generously shared yesterday, Bruce... and how it parallels my own life. I'll be back later to share the Yi's answers, but right now I have to do something about these tears... streaking down my cheeks and making a mess of my makeup... and I NEED to do it fast... I'm at work for heaven's sake!

Thank you again Bruce... and Micheline and LightAngel and Pakua for your wise and compassionate words that have touched my heart as well.

I'll be back.

Love,

Val

[bruce]

Hi Lex,

I don't think anyone's put off. There's only so much an interpreter can say about a reading. After that it tends to go into a loop. Often a "need help" thread will turn into a discussion about the I Ching, hexagrams, lines and such, and sometimes not. I wouldn't take any of it personally.

I didn't follow your question thread, but I do believe that most women are attracted to secure men. So I'm going to guess that the answers to your questions on the other thread speak to this inner stability?

[jesed]

Hi Lexxmexx

Just in case the comment could be useful.

I dare to suggest you another aproach... based not in others (not if other love you neither if other not-love you) but based in yourself, in your own development.

Just 3 questions (in this order):
1.- Global Diagnosis of my Time (it means: where are you in the Path of your entire Life)
2.- General Diagnosis of my Sentimental Time (it means: where are you in emotional/psicological/sentimental/mental Life)
3.- What should I do to improve my Sentimental Life?

After this, stop doing questions about sentimental aspects for a while; concentrate your time on an in-deep understanding AND practice of this 3 answers.

Best wishes and blessings for you

[val]

I'm back. What a mess that was. I was almost 10 mins late opening my office door to start the day because I was emotional. And as soon as I opened the door, they came streaming in needing my help (I'm the office problem solver when it comes to Microsoft and Adobe programs)... and no one noticed my eyes were wet. Lucky me.

So... all calmed down now... for now anyway.

I thought about you last night Bruce... so much you didn't say... like how difficult it was making that decision... it's probably best you didn't.

There's so much I have to say... but not enough time. Micheline said it... anam cara. I didn't know what anam cara meant and just went looking on google for more information only to discover it compounds the syncronicity of this whole discussion. It's a Celtic phrase.... figures... my soul friend... my true soul friend... who has been taken away from me by the 16.1.5 woman in this thread (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5464.html?1132113529)... but not really taken away (06.3)... is Scottish.

I'm an old woman now. I've been through a lot of relationships. And I've never felt so right with any man who's been through my life as I did with the Scotsman... the shy, funny, protective, caring Scotsman who was my muse and so much more... on every level. He was... is... definitely my soul friend. And if and when it wasn't crystal clear to me, the Yi and my dreams confirmed he is.

He talked to me about caring for the sick woman... about feeling trapped, wanting out... feeling torn... wanting to do what's right. Yes he could have been lying... it could have all been 'lines'... but he wasn't and it wasn't. The Yi backed up everything he said. The Yi said he was being noble, he was sacrificing his own interests to care for one he believed to be less fortunate than himself, and he was feeling all those things when bad went to worse. And that only made me love him all that much more.

The Yi also talked to me about her... when I asked why she held on to him when she knew he didn't love her the way she wanted him to and was in love with another woman... and they answered 16.1.5... 16.1 - wanting to be taken care of and 16.5 - an illness that is NOT fatal (although she played the 'fatal' card until she couldn't play it any more).

So this morning... it took me that long to finally face my feelings... I asked the Yi how he, my anam cara, would feel if he'd been privvy to the discussion here between you and me, and they answered 11.4. I read Siu's Portable Dragon... but I read the wrong line... and that answer is what started my tears. That's how the Yi works for me. It's important to understand what the hexagram and line statements mean, but often the force behind the Yi will just take me to the one that has the perfect words for me that explode into understanding... rather than the one with the perfect meaning.

Quoting Siu for 11.5:

<blockquote>"What do you do all day? he said.

"Teach music; I have another interest too."

"Work!" said old Jolyon, picking up the doll from off the swing, and smoothing its black petticoat. "Nothing like it is there? I don't do any now. I'm getting on. What interest is that?"

"Trying to help women who have come to grief." Old Jolyon did not quite understand. "To grief?" he repeated; then realized with a shock that she meant exactly what he would have meant himself if he had used this expression. Assisting the Magdalenes of London! What a weird and terrifying interest! And, curiously overcoming his natural shrinking, he asked:

"Why? What do you do for them?"

"Not much. I've no money to spare. I can only give sympathy and food sometimes."

Involuntarily old Jolyon's hand sought his purse. He said hastily: "How d'you get hold of them?"

"I go to a hospital."

"A hospital! Phew!"

"What hurts me most is that once they nearly all had some sort of beauty."

JOHN GALSWORTHY, ENGLISH (1867-1933)</blockquote>That's so true of him. She was sick when he met her, and she called out to him for help. And he helped her. He willinging sacrificed up to 10 years of his life to give her a life. But, at the end of those those 10 years, she was still healthy and he was still sacrificing. That's when he started feeling trapped.

So... I'd really like to believe that 11.4 means that after reading this conversation between us he'd feel like saying 'Enough' too to his situation. But it doesn't really matter... because it's all hypothetical... and I've given up... that's what the tears are all about... it doesn't matter any more.

Love,

Val

[bruce]

Val, I have for 11.4:

"And they looked at their creation, and said it was good. Key word line 4: Relationship."

I'm sorry your heart aches. It must be a very big heart indeed.

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