36. Ming I / Darkening of the Light [Archive]

ravenstar

January 4th, 2008, 02:20 AM

Hmm, looking at sparhawk's picture (did you do this?!) The person coming down the hill with some personal belongings seems determined to move on, letting no one get in his or her way of learning, doing and achieving. In fact, it could come across as someone in a great hurry. Are they running away from something or someone and whom? Is this someone who moves frequently in their life? Someone who seeks to find the answers to life but outside themselves? I wonder too if they are very adaptable, maybe from having to deal with many upheavals in their life.

Perhaps they are more intellectual than metaphysical. Yet deep within there is a need for intimacy, not only with him or herself but with others. If they could stay focused in the face of flunctuating cirumstances, I wonder if they would start developing (awakening) their keen sense of intuition, which would then enable them to anticipate changes in their life.....especially before they arrive!

here a man of dark nature is in a position of authority and brings harm to the wise and able man.

When someone frustrates us to no end or let us down emotionally, we have a tendency to hurl the hurt right back (revenge)! And we may not of even meant all that we said but there was some kind of driving force in our life (the past) that made us do it.

(As children, we learned to adapt to the demands of 'Authority').

But what happens if our conscience tell us its time to deal with our fits of anger (hurt) differently than how we've been managing it in lately and in the past? This could also be caused by some external circumstance that stops us in our tracks and forces us to look in our rearview mirror which pulls us deeper into our own human nature?

ravenstar

sparhawk

January 4th, 2008, 02:25 PM

maremaria

January 4th, 2008, 02:33 PM

What if we say that the man is running away from the "sun-eating dragon" ?

sparhawk

January 4th, 2008, 02:37 PM

What if we say that the man is running away from the "sun-eating dragon" ?

I doubt it, that dragon only eat suns... :rofl:

maremaria

January 4th, 2008, 02:38 PM

.... And moons :rolleyes:

The ancient Chinese believed that solar eclipses occur when a legendary celestial dragon devours the Sun. They also believed that this dragon attacks the Moon during lunar eclipses. In the Chinese language, the term for eclipse was "chih" which also means "to eat". One ancient Chinese solar eclipse record describes a solar eclipse as "the Sun has been eaten". from here (http://www.bibalex.org/eclipse2006/HistoricalObservationsofSolarEclipses.htm)

rosada

January 4th, 2008, 02:51 PM

THE JUDGEMENT

DARKENING OF THE LIGHT. In adversity
It furthers one to be persevering.

One must not unresistingly let himself be swept along by unfavorable circumstances, nor permit his steadfastness to be shaken. He can avoid this by maintaining his inner light, while remaining outwardly yielding and tractable. With this attitude he can overcome even the greatest adversities.
In some situations indeed a man must hide his light, in order to make his will prevail in spite of difficulties in his immediate enviornment. Perseverance must dwell in inmost consciousness and should not be discernible from without.
Only thus is a man able to maintain his will in the face of difficulties.
-Wilhelm

rosada

January 4th, 2008, 03:01 PM

Other than the fact it is a picture of night, I don't think the artist has adequately depicted the meaning of 36 in this picture of a man apparently sneaking away under the cover of darkness. By showing the man alone it misses the lesson in 36, which teaches about how to maintain one's integrity in a hostle group. Hmm..after reading the lines I think it could be considered to be representing 36.1.

trojan

January 4th, 2008, 03:59 PM

Heh heh this reminds of a question I put to the Yi last year. I find long periods of hot bright sun really depressing,(ok I'm weird) I want to avoid it yet at the same time feel as if I should be out enjoying it. Not that we did have much sun last year but on one day we must have because i asked something like "how can I cope with this today" (its hard to explain exactly how too much sun affects me ) and got 36.4 ! Yup stay out of the sun out of the light, keep under cover and pretend to be mad, thats the way forward in 36 :D

trojan

January 4th, 2008, 04:04 PM

I think 36 refers to times its a good idea to 'hide from the light' to avoid attention so one can go ones own way unimpeded - but the whole purpose of this is so one can protect ones own light, keep ones own fire burning in the face of non acceptance and hostility

sparhawk

January 4th, 2008, 04:12 PM

Other than the fact it is a picture of night, I don't think the artist has adequately depicted the meaning of 36 in this picture of a man apparently sneaking away under the cover of darkness.

It isn't a picture of night, it is a picture of an eclipse... Eclipses have powerful occult and metaphysical meanings.

maremaria

January 4th, 2008, 04:27 PM

trojan

January 4th, 2008, 05:40 PM

But 36 isn't about an eclipse, 55 is about eclipse. I don't think 36 is the light being blotted out, as in night time but protecting your own inner light in dark times.

Also i find 36 has much to do with play acting to conceal your true feelings as its dangerous for your true thoughts and feelings to be known.

trojan

January 4th, 2008, 05:52 PM

An eclipse (Ancient Greek noun έκλειψις (ékleipsis), from verb εκλείπω (ekleípō), "I cease to exist," a combination of prefix εκ- (ek-), from preposition εκ, εξ (ek, ex), "out," and of verb λείπω (leípō), "I am absent")

Though yes with 36 you do make yourself absent somehow, even through joking or playing the fool as disguise. I always imagine a court jester for 36 as i think it was one of their functions to have an influence on the opinions of the king indirectly. The king is open and relaxed when faced with the jester, he feels no threat from him so under the disguise of humour the jester is able to speak his true feelings

maremaria

January 4th, 2008, 06:12 PM

Though yes with 36 you do make yourself absent somehow, ...

Yes, it looks like that. Not very sure though. I had never connect 36 with eclipse but the picture Luis posted make some sence to me. Looks from here that in 36 somebody threaten onces light/ fire and he/she has to save it/protect it, hide the fire in a cave (earth) probably.

sparhawk

January 4th, 2008, 06:22 PM

But 36 isn't about an eclipse, 55 is about eclipse. I don't think 36 is the light being blotted out, as in night time but protecting your own inner light in dark times.

Let's forget about the text for a moment and look at the composition of the hexagram. The sun is being submerged by the earth (and by association, the sun is being blocked by a planetary object, such as the moon; and it, the moon, is also represented in the nuclear trigrams). Whatever way you may interpret the message as it pertains to a personal inquire it is fine, but the image of the hexagram speaks for itself. The artist that designed the cards took this into account.

jesed

January 4th, 2008, 07:31 PM

Dear friend

Let's forget about the text for a moment .
Sacrilegio¡¡¡¡¡¡ Only the text is real Yi... :rofl:

36 is not an eclipse... because Yi's hexagram have only one way to be understood... and for eclipse it is only 55. Anybody knows that :rofl:

The little fact that even the text of 36 talks about times of adversity (and in chinese ancient time, the night wasn't a time of adversity, but eclipses did) has no relevance.:duh:

Best

P.S. Dou you know what happened with e-ching forum?

jesed

January 4th, 2008, 07:39 PM

I don't think the artist has adequately depicted the meaning of 36 in this picture of a man apparently sneaking away under the cover of darkness.

What if the man is not covering under cover of darkness, but covering himself from a dark enviroment? (whatever the dark enviroment could be: his group, or his job, or his inner fears, or economical crisis)

jesed

January 4th, 2008, 07:40 PM

BTW.. you wouldn't go to the Mountain to find the Way during an eclipse... but you would run to reach a safe place if an eclipse find you there.

But I have say to much in this thread.. I rather find my safe place within my bag :bag:

sparhawk

January 4th, 2008, 08:08 PM

Feliz Año Nuevo, Rodrigo!!! :)

P.S. Dou you know what happened with e-ching forum?

Great question. I've tried to contact the administrator several times, as well as Ichingyafines has, and no answer whatsoever from him. I'm sure is a money problem. I even tried to contact the hosting company to pay for the subscription myself but they didn't want to hear me because I was not the owner. Oh well...

In the good news department, I'm setting up a Spanish forum in my Yitoons site. The other one at Sorocabana is still there but the I'm reaching the bandwidth limit there and I don't want to pay more for it. The hosting company for Yitoons gives me a lot more bandwidth and will be able to handle the load. Ichingyafines is helping me to setup the topics. I will advise when is up and running. If you PM your email address I will send you the topics Afines is proposing and you can add your ideas.

Un abrazo,

trojan

January 4th, 2008, 08:25 PM

Oh feel free Jesed. I'll stay right out of this thread if you want to be snide here. 36 it is !

trojan

January 4th, 2008, 08:27 PM

[QUOTE=jesed;62417]Dear friend

Sacrilegio¡¡¡¡¡¡ Only the text is real Yi... :rofl:

36 is not an eclipse... because Yi's hexagram have only one way to be understood... and for eclipse it is only 55. Anybody knows that :rofl:

QUOTE]

And that is snide and I've encountered your open hostility to me here before and don't appreciate it so please put my posts on your ignore lists if you find them so absurd - oh and please don't send me unpleasant private PMs either !

As for implying that I think there is only one way to interpret a hexagram thats ridiculous, I just don't especially see 36 as an eclipse or haven't until now, perhaps I will, I'm open to learn, probably not through being jeered at ie you mocking my remarks to someone else.

I don't think its 'sacreligious' to see the Yi from a non textual stance its just not a perspective I'm too familiar with using - each to his own isn't it. Like for example I never give a damn about timing in questions or events but you seem to find it very important and I don't mock you or interrupt your posts with snide comments to others about it.

rosada

January 5th, 2008, 12:07 AM

Hubby brought home the dvd, "Being John Malkovich" which seems a suitable accompaniment to this hexagram.

jesed

January 5th, 2008, 01:25 AM

Trojan

Be happy.

Best

noxlux

January 5th, 2008, 02:18 AM

Howdy,

I have a background in mainstream western tradition esotericism. while I generally avoid drawing paralells between different systems of thought b4 I have thouroughly mastered them both the hiding of the light has always in me triggered the association to the hermit - even in exile keeping to the inner light, guarding the inner light, following the inner light.

(In no way shape or form do I suggest the two means the same - only that some of the meanings of the hermit and some of the meanings of ming i touch each other.)

Noxlux

ravenstar

January 5th, 2008, 02:27 AM

Okay, I'm beginnin to understand what this hexagram is saying now. I'm still very new at this and am learning from each and everyone one of you.

I'd like to share something from a book I purchased a while back. It's the commentary on Hex 36, and would love to hear your comments.

Organizations with the highest strategic advantage are those with the greatest potential for loss. When an organization becomes overextended, when it complacently accepts praise and promotion, gifts and abundant profits, when it beleives itself to be growing ever stronger...it is then that it is most vulnerable. It has become unstable within the natural cycle of polarity and is on a path leading toward its opposite state. Because "fish" taken from the watery depths cannot survive, organizations should keep their advantages out of sight and out of action. Advantages that are restrained are more effective and long-lasting than those that are displayed because concealed advantages do not cause resistatnce or counter-reactions.

Inherent in this passage are instructions for a smaller organization that would overcome a large one. The principle behind "Subtle Insight" is one that is frequently repreated in the Tao Te Ching. The weak can overcome the strong by yielding and contribution to the excessiveness of the strong. Excessiveness germinates the seed that forces things to grow into their opposite

I thought this was rather interesting, and read it (oh oh)after I had responded in the beginning of this thread. But I'd like to ask, do the Hexagrams evolve through time, or stay the same?

Could this symbol apply to one person who is struggling, learning to cope with their many archetypes? It is essentially a 'group' although contained within one physical body. Then would the picture that sparhawk? posted be relevant?

What happens if a question with this Hexagram isn't about a group but one person? How would you interpret it then?

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to get a better understanding.

Thanks,
ravenstar :blush:

jesed

January 5th, 2008, 05:47 AM

Hi raven

Could this symbol apply to one person who is struggling, learning to cope with their many archetypes?

I'll put the jokes aside to give one personal comment in case it could be of any use for you.

There is one guy in Chile, from who I had learned some tools of interpretation. His name is Ricardo Andree. The jokes I made to Luis in this thread was related to a long dialogue between Luis and I about not taking too seriously the yi's studies, and the yi's schools, and the yi's "masters". And Ricardo has a lot to do with this friendly and not-to-serious dialogue.

Well, something I do value from Ricardo happened a long time ago. Using the Yi to understand a time to (what you called) "learning to cope with my many archetypes", i got hex 36.

My first reaction was: "this is a bad sign... maybe I'm in a wrong path".

Ricardo, instead, said to me: "wonderful"....

When you acknowledge the darkness around you and the light inside you (sign 36), is because you are in the middle of the process to be able to be inside the archetype without being dominated by it anymore. Archetypes are like the dark earth (dark here has no negative meaning), but you can preserve the light of consciousness (the fire within).

In that moment, that answer (both the Yi's answer and Ricardo's interpretation) was a great help for me. I don't know if this old memory coud be useful for you.

Best wishes

P.S. On the other hand, some would say: "hey! see how wrong the result was, being now Jesed as Jesed is now":rofl: :bag:

maremaria

January 5th, 2008, 11:23 AM

Unpolished thoughts :

Looking again in the picture Luis posted and LiSe’s image in 36 the eclipse seems that is pictured .
Having in mind, how important is the sun for people and all beings life must be a very frigthening event the sun eclipse and in Luis picture that fear is clearly depicked. The man is runing away and the animals sencing the effects of that phenomenon are screaming (shrieking)

LiSe’s 36 image shows a sun a moon and an arrow .
Maybe Sun + Moon = eclipse and maybe the arrows are used to kill the dragon that eats the sun .
Probably a very simplistic thought but focusing just to this two images ( and ingoring the texts for a while) ,is it safe to say that when we face situations that our “fire” is threatened by something/someone like the Sun is threatened from the dragon then it is our responsibility to save our own fire ( use those arrows to kill the dragon)

Does the arrow imply an aggressive act or just strenghts the concept of “protect” ?
Does 36 advice to withdrawn and if yes what is the dirrerence with 33 ?
And the trigram of earth what says here ? Is the carrying "mother" who provides nurisment and selter to all creatures or something else ?

:confused:
Maria

rosada

January 5th, 2008, 01:06 PM

THE IMAGE
The light has sunk into the earth:
The image of DARKENING OT THE LIGHT.
Thus does the superior man live with the great mass:
He veils his light yet still shines.

The upper trigram K'un means the mass. Amid the multitude are the two dominating rulers of the hexagram, as the superior men. Their behavior is explained on the basis of the relative positions of the two trigrams: Earth stands over light, and this suggests veiling of the light. But the lower trigram Li is not injured in its character by this combination. Its light is veiled, not extinguished.

ravenstar

January 5th, 2008, 04:23 PM

Hi raven

Ricardo, instead, said to me: "wonderful"....

When you acknowledge the darkness around you and the light inside you (sign 36), is because you are in the middle of the process to be able to be inside the archetype without being dominated by it anymore. Archetypes are like the dark earth (dark here has no negative meaning), but you can preserve the light of consciousness (the fire within).

In that moment, that answer (both the Yi's answer and Ricardo's interpretation) was a great help for me. I don't know if this old memory coud be useful for you.

Best wishes

P.S. On the other hand, some would say: "hey! see how wrong the result was, being now Jesed as Jesed is now":rofl: :bag:

Wow! Thanks Jesed, this made so much sense to me and has helped me to understand Hex 36 alot more. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my ongoing questioning mind :rolleyes:

Very appreciated
ravenstar

rosada

January 5th, 2008, 06:25 PM

Thoughts on the difference between 33. Retreat and 36. Darkening of the Light:
It seems to me that Retreat is about stepping back from a situation where the energies are going off in a direction you don't choose to flow with. Like let's say you've decided to participate in a protest march. It starts out peacefully enough but the energies start to build and before you know it you're being swept along by a mob. You don't try to turn the mob around, you just slow down and let everyone else who wants to storm City Hall rush past you. By then moving along at your own speed (34) you eventually make it to City Hall and infact you may have moved with such dignity that the mayor actually chooses to speak with you (35). Now you have a chance to actually influence, but not quite yet, first you have to infiltrate the situation, understand the mindset of these people so we have 36. Darkening of the Light where instead of Retreating, you are staying there with the group but no one knows how you really feel. You can be like a spy. I think of how 7.The Army advises that one needs to be right there in the midsts of the troups inorder to lead them. I see 36. as getting in with the opposing army, in order to eventually introduce ideas to them that if presented up frount would be immediately rejected. By hiding your light, becoming like family,37, etc. etc. until we get to 49 finally you are acknowledged and listened to> On your own day you will be believed!

sparhawk

January 5th, 2008, 07:24 PM

There is one guy in Chile, from who I had learned some tools of interpretation. His name is Ricardo Andree. The jokes I made to Luis in this thread was related to a long dialogue between Luis and I about not taking too seriously the yi's studies, and the yi's schools, and the yi's "masters". And Ricardo has a lot to do with this friendly and not-to-serious dialogue.

Oh boy, that's a HUGE can of worms!! :rofl:

I must say though, having read his books, I came to really appreciate Ricardo, not because of his personal claims, that I've always seen as outlandish, but because his writing shows a guy that really loves the classic and is a good interpreter of the Yi. For that I mean that, regarding interpretation of the Yi, I haven't found great disagreements with him, or many at all, for that matter. People with a personality like mine will always have a problem with his claims, but, those new to it, that can get past that aspect, will find a good teacher to learn the classic.

P.S. On the other hand, some would say: "hey! see how wrong the result was, being now Jesed as Jesed is now":rofl: :bag:

Hey, some will say that there are bad students, not bad teachers... :rofl:

jesed

January 5th, 2008, 08:16 PM

Hey, some will say that there are bad students, not bad teachers... :rofl:
Indeed!!!!! :duh:

Man, you caught me.. I knew 36 wasn't a good thread to open my big mouth:footinmouth: j

:rofl:

Best

maremaria

January 6th, 2008, 03:11 PM

Hi Rosada,

Thank you for your input. Your example of the protest bring me in mind the protest of those Chilean women dancing the “cueca” with the photos of their “disappeared” husbands or sons on their chest . During the dictatorship years, dark years, their freedom to express their ideas, believes and protest was diminished but they find a way to express their opposition by hiding their “light” in that “dance” .
We had also in my country a military dictatorship many years ago. Music, literature, theatrical plays and arts in general, were the “caves” for some people to keep safe (for future use or just keep it safe) their fire without having to abandon their individuality.

During the last solar eclipse, a experiment take place in my country. Scientist want to examine to eclipse’s effects in the environment, plants, and organisms. Among other interesting founds they mentioned that plants change their functions as it was night during the event and some sea organism living deep in the sea they move upwards to be closer to the light. Both plants and organism adapted to the new situation.

Maybe 36 is like being in a room and suddenly the lights goes down. At the beginning you cannot see anything and it is frustrating. If you immediately react and start searching for candles or torch probably you’ll fall in the furniture and get hurt. But if you wait for a while, your eyes will adapt to the new situation and then you can move easier.

Maria

listener

January 7th, 2008, 03:28 AM

Hi Rosada,

Maybe 36 is like being in a room and suddenly the lights goes down. At the beginning you cannot see anything and it is frustrating. If you immediately react and start searching for candles or torch probably you’ll fall in the furniture and get hurt. But if you wait for a while, your eyes will adapt to the new situation and then you can move easier.

Maria

I think it infers a bit more danger than that. a nasty image that comes to mind for me is Virginia Tech and the murders by Richard Speck many years ago. Richard Speck broke in to a dorm and murdered all the nurses there with the the exception of one who hid under the bed -the whole time the gruesome acts were happening. and in Va Tech, one person saved his life by playing dead under a heap of bodies. in both cases, it was dire that the two stay low and act as if they were dead, they had no choice when the darkness was in power. but after wards both emerged unscathed and able to bring the details to the police

maremaria

January 7th, 2008, 10:54 AM

I think it infers a bit more danger than that.

Well, I'm not sure about that. Still have difficulties to understand 36 , but I thing that the danger maybe isn't always life-threatening. Not always “dark black” but also “grey”.
I wanted to ask you, Those examples you posted could be 33 ?
I’m trying to find an answer on the difference between 33 and 36. Still not clear to me.:duh:

Maria

hilary

January 7th, 2008, 12:13 PM

They do have a lot in common - how to save yourself from danger. But at the least, the tactics are different: 33 leaves the situation, like a hermit retreating up a mountain; 36, like ***i, stays in the midst of it. The hermit isn't hiding his difference, just translating it into distance.

About suns and arrows - there is a Chinese archer hero called Yi (not the same character, sorry) who rescued the world when the ten suns all rose at once by shooting them down. He had to be stopped, though, before he shot down the tenth. If I remember rightly, Steve Marshall speculates that this myth may hide an earlier form, in which he was actually saving the sun by shooting the crow that was eating it during an eclipse. Oh, and a crow, or at least some black bird or other, is the emblem of the Shang, at whose court ***i hid his light.

I wouldn't like to guess how all this should be blended into a single interpretation, but it does seem to be connected.

Edit...
OK, the obscenity filter is a bit hyperactive. ***i. Prince Ji. Good grief.

frank_r

January 7th, 2008, 03:09 PM

Does 36 advice to withdrawn and if yes what is the dirrerence with 33 ?

Hallo Maria,

For me the difference between 33 and 36 is that 33 is a active withdrawel. The outside trigram is heaven so very active but staying inside on the same spot(inside trigram is mountain). You will keep your personal idea's but you retreat in a active way. Here there is a strong connection between the third line and the top trigam.

As for 36 is the outside trigram earth, so be totally receptive be aware of the little changes. And the inside fire, as fire has a yin line in the middle so there is only activity when there is receptivity in the centre. When there is no matter(idea's) in the inside there is no fire. Here you have to be so receptive that you become part of the surrounding but from the inside you don't stop glowing. Here there is a strong connecting between the trigram of earth(top trigram) with the second line.

I liked the analogy about the dead bodies from listener about 36

maremaria

January 7th, 2008, 04:44 PM

Thank you listener, Hilary and Frank. You make it more clear to me.

In 36 you have to act like a chameleon Lizard. Adapt you skin colours to the environment to protect yourself form the “enemy” Either green or brown or whatever colour you become you always be a lizard. Not a leave, not a rock or something else.
In 33 on the other hand you have not that luxury so you have to run away. :eek:

I hope Rosada will start soon those threads she has promise us about the trigrams. The traits of each puts a lot of light in understanding the hexagram’s meanings.

Maria

rosada

January 7th, 2008, 07:29 PM

Let's just start talking about trigrams right here!

K'un: Mass.

Li: Light.

Earth stands over light in this hexagram, so this suggests veiling of the light.

Li below is not injured, however, by having K'un above, so we see the light is only veiled, not extinguished.
--
Comparing this to the trigrams of 33.Retreat..

----- Retreat has HEAVEN above. HEAVEN has a strong upward mobility and therefore
----- automatically retreats from..
-----

----- MOUNTAIN below.
-- --
-- --

This way of looking at the trigrams suggests MOUNTAIN is representing the inferior man and HEAVEN is the superior man. Mountain's nature is to Stand Still whereas Heaven moves forward, thus the superior man, Heaven, can easily move out of range of the inferior man, Mountain.
Another way of looking at the two trigrams would be to consider the lower trigram as how one should behave in view of what the upper trigram says is "out there." That is, when there are strong forces running the show one can avoid getting caught up in them by becoming silent and inaccessible "in here".

I think it's interesting that Wilhelm says of 33., "The superior man keeps the inferior man at a distance, not angrily, but with reserve." I think of "Reserve as meaning, "This space, time is reserved." as in, "I don't have time to get caught up in this nonsence." or, "I'd love to come to your party but I already have something scheduled for that night." With that attitude you are not putting anybody down, just staying focused on your own goals.
--

Considering how 33 and 36 differ in an actual situation. Say you are invited to a dinner party and you know there are going to be people or activities there that you don't want to connect with. 33. says claim you have a prior engagement. 36 says go, but keep a low profile. Interesting that 33.Retreat comes first and 34 has one heading off in directions that seem to be of one's own choosing, but then inevitably one finds oneself in situations where you can't just withdraw so you ultimately have to learn how to be in these situations. Interesting 36. leads to 37. Family, as in sometimes you can't avoid those darn family reunions.

charly

January 7th, 2008, 09:16 PM

...In 36 you have to act like a chameleon Lizard. Adapt you skin colours to the environment to protect yourself form the “enemy” ...

María:

http://library.thinkquest.org/16661/media/escher/tessellations/11/1.jpg

A Yin Yang Lizard from Escher.
See: http://library.thinkquest.org/16661/escher/tessellations.12.html

Yours,

Charly

charly

January 7th, 2008, 10:48 PM

... Music, literature, theatrical plays and arts in general, were the “caves” for some people to keep safe (for future use or just keep it safe) their fire without having to abandon their individuality...
María:

About Ming Yi related with freedom, some people think that «Ming Yi» is a bird and from bird to freedom there is only a step.

H.36 deals with «damage to the eye», according to one of the traditional interpretations. But, as Li Ching-ch'ih has convincingly shown, there is not the slightest doubt that ming-i (4) is the name of a bird. «When the ming-i in its flight droops its wings, that means that my lord on his journey for three days will have no food...
_______________________________________
(4) Ming 明may be for the cognate 鳴«singing»

From: Arthur Waley: The book of changes.
Bulletin of the Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities.
See the pdf document in Steve Marshall's page.

As a curiosity
明ming2: / clear, bright / lucidity / to understand /
Some people see it as a SUN and a MOON → by common factor: «bright».
But also «mixed lights», maybe more than one (your own) light → to understand, to be lucid.

夷yi2 / foreigner, barbarian / injury, wound / to kill, to execute /
Some people see it as a sort of ARROW for SHOOTING BIRDS, but there is an oracle bone character like a small person attached to a big one, maybe «mixed people» or «how to pass unnoticed».

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Oracle/J20000/j23400/j23429.gif
From: Sears' ChineseEtymology http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%A4%B7&submitButton1=Etymology

I like birds, but I prefer W/B rendition. Among other intriguing combinations there is «lucid wound» maybe the 3rd. eye?

Yours,

Charly

sparhawk

January 7th, 2008, 11:05 PM

夷yi2 / foreigner, barbarian / injury, wound / to kill, to execute /
Some people see it as a sort of ARROW for SHOOTING BIRDS, but there is an oracle bone character like a small person attached to a big one, maybe «mixed people» or «how to pass unnoticed».

This is interesting. I spent about two weeks combing through some old journals online and I've seen and downloaded some files that refer to "arrows" in the title. Will see if I can post some information as soon as I have some time to find them (I downloaded hundreds of interesting articles...)

maremaria

January 8th, 2008, 01:15 PM

Hi Charly
I liked the image of Yin-Yang Lizard. If you put it on a white background the white lizards can be seen clear but the black not. The same with a black background where the black one are visible.

As for the rest of the interesting, imo, information you post , Unfortunely I can not say much because my competence regarding the stories behind Yi or Chinese is not enough to cope with the hidden meanings. But I like the 3rd eye idea and "lucid wound" ( inner eye, light, soul, spirit etc…)

rosada : Let's just start talking about trigrams right here!

no, no... You promised Threads ;) :)

Maria

rosada

January 8th, 2008, 04:31 PM

36.1
Nine at the beginning means:
Darkening of the light during flight.
He lowers his wings.
the superior man does not eat for three days
On his wanderings.
But he has somewhere to go.
The host has occasion to gossip about him.

With grandiose resolve a man endeavors to soar above all obstacles, but thus encounters a hostile fate, he retreats and evades the issue, The time is difficult. Without rest, he must hurry along, with no permanent abiding place. If he does not want to make compromises within himself, but insists on remaining true to his principles, he suffers deprivation. Nevertheless, he has a fixed goal to strive for, even though the people with whom he lives do not understand him and speak ill of him.

Trigram LI:
The animal symbol belonging to the trigram LI is the pheasant, hence the idea of flying. The line, being strong, is about to advance.

Trigram K'an:
The nuclear trigram over Li is K'an, danger: hence it is hindered in it's flight. It renounces the idea of sacrificing its principles in order to secure a livelihood; it prefers going hungry to eating without honor.
-Wilhelm

-- --
-- --
-- -- >
----- > nuclear trigram K'an
-- -- >
----- = First line of trigram Li

trojan

January 8th, 2008, 04:56 PM

Looking forward to hearing anyones take on or experience with this line as it kinda baffles me a bit.

charly

January 8th, 2008, 06:49 PM

[line:]... the superior man does not eat for three days on his wanderings. But he has somewhere to go. The host has occasion to gossip about him...
[Comment:]... he has a fixed goal to strive for, even though the people with whom he lives do not understand him and speak ill of him.

-Wilhelm/Baynes

Rosada:

How does the Noble-Young (Superior Man) behave in this line?

Noble-Young fasts for three days.
In his wanderings he has where to go.
As a guest he gets conflictive relations with his host.
Noble-Young has a fixed goal in mind.

I believe I know the fixed goal, the only fixed idea that Noble-Youngs have in mind all the time, mostly when they wanders, mostly when they are fasting.

Noble-Youngs think that they have some privileges when they arrive to a place, guests have some privileges remnant of the old matriarchal right that challenge the patience of hosts in times when the new patrialchal right is not yet firmly stablished.

Hosts have a conflict between new law and old uses, they get upset and speaks badly.

Noble-Youngs when arrive to a place have the old right of going to bed with the host's wife. Dangerous affair indeed in new times but an inescapable duty in old communities.

Wilhelm don't tell us this detail but he knows, he darkens his light.

Do you trust me?

Yours,

Charly

trojan

January 8th, 2008, 10:16 PM

Well I dunno :confused: Why doesn't he eat for 3 days and why does a man suddenly have wings :eek: It says 'he lowers his wings' Is he an angel, lol I must have missed something basic here. Last time i got this line I was asking if I should go to a day workshop - I didn't go. I had the feeling it wouldn't be right for me. Later on I discovered it definately wouldn't have been.

rosada

January 8th, 2008, 10:59 PM

To understand this line I went and read the first lines of all the hexagrams that had LI as the lower trigram. All the other hexagrams with LI as the bottom trigram have this line either being very successful - 13.1 - or at least okay, but in hex 36.1 LI meets with Danger. I don't know what the cause is of the danger (geez, Charly, where do you find those stories??) but you certainly have the impression the person blurted out his ideas fully expecting to be applauded, only to find he had insulted his host and he'd better get out of town fast. I read an example of 36.1 that told about a fellow being given an interview and the boss challanged the applicant's ideas. The applicant boldly and brilliantly showed the boss to be wrong, but guess what? The boss didn't hire him.

I like maria's idea that one's eyes can adjust to the dark. Also secrets maybe discovered, revealed. "In darkness, many things come to light."

miakoda

January 9th, 2008, 04:04 AM

Although I've gotten 36.1 in the past as a warning that I'm entering a period of great stress in my life, it was most clearly defined for me after the death of my mother last year. I received it several times for my daily reading in the weeks immediately after she died. Not only was it a weary time, but many in the community were discussing her sudden passing, giving an "occasion to gossip." I also saw it again when a friend was assaulted and had to recover on many levels. Whenever I asked the Yi about his well being in the month or so after, the answer was 36.1. Everyone was talking about it, of course, but it was also one of those amazingly literal descriptions, too, because his jaw was damaged and he had difficulty eating.

In every experience I've had or witnessed with 36.1, receiving it presaged a time when it was best to fly under the radar.

maremaria

January 9th, 2008, 04:27 PM

About the eye :

Just found this looking in Li trigram.

“Li is the eye, looking and trying to see, the sense of daylight and of forms and colors” Wilhelm (if my messy notes are correct)

About : “the superior man does not eat for three days”

Never got 36.1 but I know very well – in a twisted manner- “the superior man does not eat for three days”.
Sometime ago, for a long period I had to work long hours. Something a bit less that 24/7. Those times I stop eating properly (almost nothing) because of the stress but also because I didn’t want to spend time in inferior things like eating. This would cost time and I couldn’t afford that. ( I thought then)

It felt like I had to reduce all my needs (eat, rest etc ) in order to dedicate myself to the assigned goal.
In my case, seems now, that I “lower my winds” more than I should do (lack of 15).:brickwall:

Maria

trojan

January 9th, 2008, 04:44 PM

I'm still wondering why the wings ? Is this a man or a bird ? Or are there two seperate beings here. A man lowers his wings, doesn't eat and people gossip about him - sounds like sulking to me.

maremaria

January 9th, 2008, 04:57 PM

Hi Trojan,

In sailing, when the winds are strong we have to lower the sails otherwise they will be ripped and a sailing boat without sail is useless if there is somewhere we should go.
Maybe this line means something like that. :confused:

No answer about the bird /man. Me confused too. Maybe there is a story behind that line

Maria

trojan

January 9th, 2008, 05:14 PM

Thanks Maria, you come up with some interesting associations to the images.

maremaria

January 9th, 2008, 05:15 PM

this is because I'm in work and imagine vacations. :rofl:

charly

January 9th, 2008, 09:00 PM

... In sailing, when the winds are strong we have to lower the sails otherwise they will be ripped and a sailing boat without sail is useless if there is somewhere we should go... No answer about the bird /man. Me confused too. Maybe there is a story behind that line...
María:

I believe that the bird is not the Noble-Young, there is a parallelism between:

the bird drooping his wings when in fly, for going down, for getting earth.
the Noble-Young fasting for preparing himself for become more lucid, also wandering, guesting, an initiation (in search of the 3rd. eye?).

Thus, the Ming-Yi is a bird as Waley says. Maybe the pale bird of freedom under dark circumstances.

I'm sure that there are many stories behind the line.

A sincretic story bird-man: shamans bears bird dressings, Noble-Young will pass through an initiation by fasting and wandering, and masters have the last word. He is like a shaman, bird and man are the same thing. The man and his freedom are the same thing. Sometimes to get low profile is the condition to survive, for being free is condition to be alive.

主zhu3 / host / master / lord /
人ren2 / people /
有you3 / to have /
言yan2 / to speak / word /

zhu ren MASTERS (as a guild)
you HAVE
yan WORD

«The MASTERS HAVE the last WORD»

An open ended story.

rosada

January 10th, 2008, 06:46 AM

maremaria

January 10th, 2008, 12:42 PM

...
«The MASTERS HAVE the last WORD»[/CENTER]

...

lol, in sailing too. There is no democracy in a boat. The CAPTAIN has the last Word !!!!

Seriously now, how do you understand the "gossip" in line 1.

Maria

charly

January 10th, 2008, 02:57 PM

lol, in sailing too. There is no democracy in a boat. The CAPTAIN has the last Word !!!!
María:

Indeed. I believe that initiation requires almost ever a master that delivers a sign or identity mark of achieved initiation.

Except maybe some very exceptional cases of lonely initiation, but documents, cultural usages and deep observation act as virtual masters, culture or subcultures are then the masters.

Seriously now, how do you understand the "gossip" in line 1...

There is no «gossip» in the chinese text, only the character for «speak», «word» or «words». I don't read german, but «gossip» in W/B version depicts that the relation between the subject and the «hosts» or «masters» (1) is conflictive maybe due the cultural evolution afecting the roles of guests and hosts, among others rights and duties pertaining sexual behavior.

The previous post to Rosada was not a joke.

Hosts have a conflict between new law and old uses, they get upset and speaks badly.

Noble-Youngs when arrive to a place have the old right of going to bed with the host's wife. Dangerous affair indeed in new times but an inescapable duty in old communities.

Wilhelm don't tell us this detail but he knows, he darkens his light.

The old uses assures genetical diversity in primitive communities but become conflictive with the passing to a patriarchal stratified society.

Yours,

Charly
__________________________
(1) not as individuals but like a sort of gild, the conflict is not between persons but between cultural roles and values.

charly

January 10th, 2008, 03:14 PM

... Seriously now, how do you understand the "gossip" in line 1...

María:

If you are interested, please, take a look to the three quotes I post to Frank at 59066, are very instructive and, I believe, applicable to chinese people.

... three stories corresponding each one to a stage of marriage institution, from S.A.Dange, India, from primitive communism to slavery, a book from wich Needham says «... we have approached ancient Chinese and ancient Indian civilization with ... similar results»:

Yours,

Charly

maremaria

January 10th, 2008, 04:08 PM

María:

If you are interested, please, take a look to the three quotes I post to Frank at 59066, are very instructive and, I believe, applicable to chinese people.

Yours,

Charly

Thank you Charly. I found those stories.
Maria

charly

January 10th, 2008, 10:59 PM

Thank you Charly. I found those stories.
Maria
María:

Being the core text of the I Ching a preconfucian text it's natural that remnants of old costumes challenge the values of the new stratified society, new people hardly undestood some issues of old stories.

It reminds me Has Ruesch's «Top of the World»:

The Inuit men have great respect for the women. The women care for the children, build igloos, sew, tenderize skins with their teeth, and complete many other arduous tasks. The concept of wife sharing is another practice popular among the Inuits, of which the white men disapprove. In the novel Ernenek gets into a lot of trouble because the white man doesn't understand the ways of 'the men' . When Ernenek offers Asiak to a white traveler to 'laugh with' the white man shows no interest. In the Inuit society this is a great dishonor, and Ernenek bashes the white mans skull into the wall and ends up killing him.

From: "Ethnocentrism at the Top of the world". Anti Essays. 10 Jan. 2008
http://www.antiessays.com/free-essays/1940.html

Yours,

Charly

ravenstar

January 11th, 2008, 01:44 AM

O Six in the second place means:
Darkening of the light injures him in the left thigh.
He gives aid with the strength of a horse.
Good fortune.

Here the Lord of Light is in a subordinate place and is wounded
by the Lord of Darkness. But the injury is not fatal, it is only
a hindrance. Recue is still possible. The wounded man gives
no thought to himself; he thinks only of saving the others who
are also in danger. Therefore he tries with all his strength to
save all that can be saved. There is good fortune in thus acting
according to duty.

The good fortune of the six in the second place
comes from its devotion to the rule.

One might expect misfortune from the situation, yet the
oracle is, "Good fortune." This is because the line, being yield-
ing, correct, and in the proper place, is equal to the demands of
its position.
-Wilhelm

Reading this, Rosada, and everyone else here, reminds me of Chiron, the son of the Saturn. Chiron was a Centaur, half human, half horse. He was a great teacher and physician and taught many Greek hereos various skills such as riding, archery and medicine. For those who don't know the story, Chiron was accidentally wounded in the leg by his friend, Hercules. The spear was poisoned and the wound refused to heal, so Chiron became known as the "Wounded Healer, his knowledge of healing and homeopathic medicine gained from his own distress. Being wounded and 'full of pain' did not stop him seeking to help others.

ravenstar

ravenstar

January 11th, 2008, 02:05 AM

About the eye :

Just found this looking in Li trigram.

“Li is the eye, looking and trying to see, the sense of daylight and of forms and colors” Wilhelm (if my messy notes are correct)

Maria

When I read this, I thought of primitive man, before the development of language. Primitive man had an integral connection with his environment. His basic consciousness was visual. It would seem he thought, felt, lived visually. In fact, I bet dreams and fantasies were of more value at that time, then cognitive thought.

The aboriginals in Austrailia, supposedly see and interact with spirits and gods in every animal, stone and cloud. This is how they relate to the world.

For us the development of language and the written word has dominated our world. Words become labels, detaching us from a situation to experience and analysie it, which also causes us to separate from nature? With these changes came the birth of civilization and of law and order......and of course mathematics, philosophy and science.

Another thought....

when people's eyes are open, they are drawn to scenes they see outside of themselves. When our eyes are closed and there is silence, images and thoughts (some beautiful some fearful) appear to us from our mind....depending what is flowing up from the unconscious.

In the mind's eye, we see the past, the future, we daydream and dream of things that can be beyond the bounds of space and time.

Also, what of the Eye of Horus?

ravenstar

charly

January 11th, 2008, 05:23 AM

... Chiron was a Centaur, half human, half horse. He was a great teacher and physician and taught many Greek hereos various skills such as riding, archery and medicine.... was accidentally wounded in the leg by his friend, Hercules... wounded and 'full of pain' did not stop him seeking to help others...

Hi, Ravenstar:

I like your story ;), maybe that was what Wilhelm have in mind when he wrote his rendering and commentaries.

This Centaur acts like a cultural hero and wounds are initiation marks. Many cultural heroes were half animals (like all of us in some sense).

If not from a story like this I wonder where all this people needing help came from. Sure not from the chinese text. Maybe Lao NaiXuan told to Wilhelm a similar story, it reminds him the Centaur story and...

Some guys (not Wilhelm, of course) think that the hero uses a strong horse to save himself. Another guys thinks that time is propitious for gelding a horse (don't ask me why). Another more thinks that the hero is strong like a horse...

Given that YI means «barbarian», among another things like wounds, arrows, birds, I believe that the hero and the horse are an inseparable pair like riding mongol archers, like man and dog, like bird and cry.

We cann't help nobody if we don't accept our own duality, or better our own identity.

The advice could be: «save your horse and your horse will save you».

Harold Drinkstein ran a sleazy joint, housing a clandestine strip show, a gambling-den, and an illegal booking parlor. But in actual fact his establishment was only a front used to mask the real source of his fabulous income: hidden at the back was a grocery store.
Les Luthiers
From: http://www.lesluthiers.org/verversion.php?ID=193

Things are not what they seem, don't you agree?

Yours,

Charly

maremaria

January 11th, 2008, 11:51 AM

... Chiron was a Centaur, half human, half horse. He was a great teacher and physician and taught many Greek hereos various skills such as riding, archery and medicine. For those who don't know the story, Chiron was accidentally wounded in the leg by his friend, Hercules. The spear was poisoned and the wound refused to heal, so Chiron became known as the "Wounded Healer, his knowledge of healing and homeopathic medicine gained from his own distress. Being wounded and 'full of pain' did not stop him seeking to help others.

ravenstar

Interesting association. I have forgoten Chiron as a Healer. Maybe becauce Aspclepious is more "famous" as a healer. (which was a studens of Chiron).

I have found some more information related to this but busy to translate them in english. Maybe later in the day.

Do you think (adressing to everyone here) that Jung's "wounded healer" is relevant to line 2. ?

Maria

sparhawk

January 11th, 2008, 02:39 PM

Harold Drinkstein ran a sleazy joint, housing a clandestine strip show, a gambling-den, and an illegal booking parlor. But in actual fact his establishment was only a front used to mask the real source of his fabulous income: hidden at the back was a grocery store.
Les Luthiers

LOL!! Those guys are genius!! They never get old. :D

ravenstar

January 12th, 2008, 01:18 AM

Hi, Ravenstar:

I like your story ;), maybe that was what Wilhelm have in mind when he wrote his rendering and commentaries.

This Centaur acts like a cultural hero and wounds are initiation marks. Many cultural heroes were half animals (like all of us in some sense).

If not from a story like this I wonder where all this people needing help came from. Sure not from the chinese text. Maybe Lao NaiXuan told to Wilhelm a similar story, it reminds him the Centaur story and...

Some guys (not Wilhelm, of course) think that the hero uses a strong horse to save himself. Another guys thinks that time is propitious for gelding a horse (don't ask me why). Another more thinks that the hero is strong like a horse...

Given that YI means «barbarian», among another things like wounds, arrows, birds, I believe that the hero and the horse are an inseparable pair like riding mongol archers, like man and dog, like bird and cry.

We cann't help nobody if we don't accept our own duality, or better our own identity.

The advice could be: «save your horse and your horse will save you».

Things are not what they seem, don't you agree?

Yours,

Charly

Thanks Charly and maremaria, it's nice to be able to contribute!

In regard to what you said above, Carl Jung saw the horse as a symbol of 'instincts out of control', or the unconscious 'dominating' the conscious mind. Yet in Upanishads it states....

quoted from this web page http://www.aspiringindia.org/upanishads/the_principal_upanishads/brahadaranyaka_upanishad

The Brhadaranyaka Upanishad starts with the description of the sacrificial horse used in the asvamedha sacrifice. The horse is described as follows:

The head of the sacrificial horse is verily the dawn; the eye of the horse is the sun; the vital force, the air; the open mouth, the fire named vaisvanara; the trunk, the year; the back, Heaven; the belly, the sky; the hoof, the earth; the flanks, the four directions; the ribs, the intermediate directions; the limbs, the seasons; the joints, the months and fortnights; the feet, the days and nights; the bones, the stars; the flesh, the clouds; the half-digested food (in the stomach), the sands; the arteries and veins, the rivers; the liver and spleen, the mountains; the hair, the herbs and trees; the forepart, the rising sun; the hind part, the setting sun. Its yawn is lightning, its shaking body is thunder, its making water is rain, its neighing is indeed speech.
(Brhadaranyaka Upanishad 1.1.1)

Sri Chinmoy interprets this verse in the following manner:

"Why did the Upanishadic seers, the Vedic seers, speak of the horse and not any other animal as the symbol of sacrifice? They realized the speed of the horse, the dynamism of the horse, the faithful and devoted qualities of the horse. Speed is necessary, dynamism is necessary, faithfulness and devotedness are necessary to realize and reveal the Absolute. That is why they chose the horse for religious rites and for help in their awakening.

Just by sacrificing a horse we cannot gain any divine merit. Far from it. One does not have to make a horse sacrifice in this age. We must meditate on the qualities of the horse and invoke these divine qualities to enter into us from Above. The Vedic and Upanishadic seers did this. They succeeded in getting the divine qualities from the horse, and the result was that they entered into Brahmaloka, the highest Heaven."

So the Upanishads see the horse as a symbol of the Cosmos (the Self) Chiron clearly represented the mind 'in control' of the instincts or riding of the horse. He was well educated and clearly aimed higher than most other centaurs......but for some reason, with his encounter with Hercules, was vulnerable in the 'horse part of his body....his leg'?

Something interesting to think about.

ravenstar

rosada

January 12th, 2008, 01:29 AM

Nine in the third place means:
Darkening of the light during the hunt in the south.
Their great leader is captured.
One must not expect perseverance too soon.

It seems as if chance were at work. While the strong, loyal man is striving eagerly and in good faith to create order, he meets the ringleader of the disorder, as if by accident, and seizes him. Thus victory is achieved, But in abolishing abuses one must not be too hasty. This would turn out badly because the abuses have been in existence so long.

The purpose of the hunt in the south has great success.

The aim is centered on the hunt. That success comes, that the great leader of the darkening of the light is captured, is not something premeditated, hence the success is all the greater. King Wu had no intention of acquiring personal power and seizing empire for himself; it fell to him because of his character.

LOOKING AT THE TRIGRAMS:

The line is a strong one in a strong place, hense it carries out its intention.

-- --
-- --
-----
The upper nuclear trigram Chen is linked with the horse,

-- --
-----
-- --
the lower, K'an, with the chariot, hence the idea of the hunt.

-----
-- --
-----
Li, in which this is the top line, is the south.
-Wilhelm

ravenstar

January 13th, 2008, 05:48 PM

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm on the right track here.....but I'm sure you will all set me straight!

South in Shamanism is the place of innocence and trust, a place where we take things one step at a time, and a place of seeing what is directly before us.....a place of childlike wonder.

Like Chiron, after being wounded, we can physically stumble around in the fog for a while. Is it the ego that has been captured?

The prince, makes me think of a story The Little Prince, the innocent child and explorer. A child who possesses 'great feelings'.

In Caroline Myss's archeptypal cards she quotes the prinice as

"can manifest as a man with great feelings of entitlement, who uses his position and power purely to advance his own interests without regard for the needs of others."

eek! So is this an energy (shadow) that is nice, nice to your face, then seems to or could undermine you when the prince wants what he wants?

Is this where we are challenged in our woundedness to become aware of our thoughts perceptions and how we communicate with others? Are we being intimidated by others and what they expect of us? When this happens we lose tourch with our own ideas and opinions? Are we to be receptive to others feedback but reserve the right to assess and choose for ourselves? If we want to react or get angry because our leader has been captured....should we instead use this anger or reaction to spur us into action for our own development?

ravenstar

maremaria

January 14th, 2008, 01:52 PM

Hi ravenstar,

Funny, I was thinking about little prince this weekend. When you mentioned chiron , which is a myth of my country , I was frustrated (with me not with you) that I have forgot it. And that remind me the little Prince and who we the people forgot the simple truths as we grow older and that muths ( simple stories, simple truths) we have learn in our chilhood are replaced with reality.

Chiron is a mythical entity. Now days we call him ‘therapist” same thing. Same patterns. Wounds and how they can heeled . How can our wounds can heel us. How can help us understand ourselfs and others.(something like that you said too) To see what is invisible to the eye as the fox said to Little Prince. But this requires to go to the “south”
What south means is not very clear to me yet. What Lise says about this line make sence to me now.

LiSe 36.3 :
If your mind is low, then go hunting in the fields of Hypochondria – the South, the belly, the domain of emotions. Giving your thoughts a connection with physical sensations may not solve anything yet, but it opens the gateway for recovery. Tangible things attract concrete solutions.

Maybe a gateway back to home (24)

Maria

charly

January 14th, 2008, 09:57 PM

...Just by sacrificing a horse we cannot gain any divine merit. Far from it. One does not have to make a horse sacrifice in this age. We must meditate on the qualities of the horse and invoke these divine qualities to enter into us from Above. The Vedic and Upanishadic seers did this. They succeeded in getting the divine qualities from the horse, and the result was that they entered into Brahmaloka, the highest Heaven."...

Thanks Ravenstar:

I believe that Indian literature can be useful for undestanding chinese text because of some reciprocal influences and some common evolutions stages.

Horses are sacrified guys, among the best man friends.
Ma (horse) sound doubled is used in chinese for «mom», also sacrified indeed.

http://www.chinavista.com/experience/joss1/ox1.gif
In ancient China, rural people worshipped the Ox King and Horse King. They acknowledged the role oxen and horses had played in the development of agriculture and believed they shouldn't be forgotten. Here, the Ox King looks like a venerable scholar , corresponding to the ox's slow movement and endurance, whereas the Horse King appears as a masked military officer with four arms , symbolizing the horse's fiery disposition and quick movements. The suckling calf and newborn colt in the foreground signify the farmers' desire that the gods bless them with bumper harvests and healthy domestic animals.

From: http://www.chinavista.com/experience/joss1/deities3.html
Yours,

Charly

charly

January 14th, 2008, 10:09 PM

... And that remind me the little Prince and who we the people forgot the simple truths as we grow older and that muths ( simple stories, simple truths) we have learn in our chilhood are replaced with reality...

María:

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret: It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."

Saint Exúpery: The Little Prince
from: http://wolfweb.unr.edu/homepage/shubinsk/fox.html

I like The Litle Prince too. And the Fox.

Yours,

Charly

charly

January 14th, 2008, 10:55 PM

...Darkening of the light during the hunt in the south. Their great leader is captured. One must not expect perseverance too soon...
... the great leader of the darkening of the light is captured...
-Wilhelm
Rosada:

The chinese text:

明ming2: clear / bright / to understand / licid /
夷yi2: barbarian / archer / arrow /
于yu2: at / to
南nan2: south / southern /
狩shou4: small animal hunt / hunting /

得de2: obtain / get / gain /
其qi2: his / her / its / that / such / 's /
大da4: big / great /
首shou3: head / chief /

不bu4: un ... (negative prefix) / not / no /
可ke3: ... able / can / may /
疾ji2: sickness / disease / hate / envy /
貞zhen1: omen / divination / perseverance /

Maybe:

The BRIGHT ARCHER HUNTING SMALL ANIMALS AT THE SOUTH...
...GETS SUCH a BIG HEAD ...
.. that's an OMEN He CANN'T ENVY nothing.

Big gains, he must not envy anybody, somebody can envy him.

Yours,

Charly

rosada

January 15th, 2008, 12:19 AM

Karcher says of this line,
"In the midst of very considerable difficulties, you find the central illusion that is causing the chaos. Though it may act slowly, this will release you from the pain and sadness that afflict you. It lets you open your heart once more."

A friend of mine has been feeling distraught as she feared she was going to have to move once again. Today she learned that her partner only meant he wanted a vacation. Not only has the chaos lifted now that she doesn't have the illusion her husband is looking to sell their house, she is also feeling like she can start making friends in her new neighborhood - "open her heart again", after so many sudden moves in the past.

ravenstar

January 15th, 2008, 02:54 AM

Wow! Thanks Charly
I believe that Indian literature can be useful for undestanding chinese text because of some reciprocal influences and some common evolutions stages.

Horses are sacrified guys, among the best man friends.
Ma (horse) sound doubled is used in chinese for «mom», also sacrified indeed.

I think your right Charly. I didn't even think of this when replying to this thread. Very interesting about the Ma (horse) sound doubled is used in chinese for mom......I didn't know that!

And maremaria
Funny, I was thinking about little prince this weekend. When you mentioned chiron , which is a myth of my country , I was frustrated (with me not with you) that I have forgot it.

Aw don't be frustrated. That's why we need others....they help us to remember getting a sense of vision, a thought, a memory.

And this is so true!
And that remind me the little Prince and who we the people forgot the simple truths as we grow older and that muths ( simple stories, simple truths) we have learn in our chilhood are replaced with reality.

Our reality is the box we put ourselves in. We've become very complex creatures haven't we, overburdened with day to day life. Imagine seeing through the eyes of a child, what wonder, what beauty, what a wonderful life!

And thanks rosada, this makes this 3rd line so much clearer. I'm very new at the I Ching and there's so much to understand and learn!
Karcher says of this line,
"In the midst of very considerable difficulties, you find the central illusion that is causing the chaos. Though it may act slowly, this will release you from the pain and sadness that afflict you. It lets you open your heart once more."

A friend of mine has been feeling distraught as she feared she was going to have to move once again. Today she learned that her partner only meant he wanted a vacation. Not only has the chaos lifted now that she doesn't have the illusion her husband is looking to sell their house, she is also feeling like she can start making friends in her new neighborhood - "open her heart again", after so many sudden moves in the past.

Thanks guys,

ravenstar

rosada

January 15th, 2008, 04:38 AM

Six in the fourth place:

He penetrates the left side of the belly.
One gets at the very heart of the darkening of the light,
And leaves the gate and courtyard.
-

"He penetrates the left side of the belly," that is, he finds out the inmost sentiment of the heart.

-- --
-- --K'un, the upper primary trigram, means the belly.
-- --

-- --
-- -- Chen, the upper nuclear trigram, means the left side - hence the left side of the
----- belly.
The line stands near the lord of darkness, thus it finds out his inmost sentiment and can take itself out of danger in good time. Staying on would mean sacrificing oneself to no purpose.

rosada

January 16th, 2008, 04:04 PM

I always like to see Joseph Murphy's take on the lines. He's the one who wrote "Secrets of the I Ching" which attempts to match biblical passages with the hexagrams. For 36.4 he has:

"The words of a talebearer are as wounds and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly (Proverbs 26:22). The belly in the I Ching and the Bible means the subconscious mind. You are capable of penetrating into the darkness of the other person's mind, You are not responcible for negative patterns in the other's mind. Turn to the Healing Light within yourself. Do not get involved. Bless the other and walk on."
-Murphy

trojan

January 16th, 2008, 04:16 PM

For me 36.4 is "you get away with it" - its a sneaky line and you might be acting a bit shady :cool: but here you're justified, you have to do what you have to do. You go undercover, acheive your mission and get away with it.

rosada

January 16th, 2008, 05:59 PM

trojan

January 16th, 2008, 10:14 PM

If 36.4 is getting away with something, how would you explain the connection between 36.4>55? If 36.4 leads to 55. being "like the sun at midday", that sounds like whatever's a secret comes out in the open? Or is it that what has been secret comes out in the open just to you? And that if you "leave the gate and courtyard"(36.4) you can "be not sad"(55) about leaving?

Hmm..noting that the IMAGE for 55. says, "The superior man decides lawsuits and carries out punishments." While mulling this over I had a call from a lady who discovered her boyfriend was cheating (36.4) and left him. Now he's wanting to take her to court for items he claims she took with her (55).

I'm sure 36.4 has many more depths of meaning than 'getting away with it' - its just for me personally thats how its played out in a pretty literal way - more than once and er thats how i feel about it on a gut level.

In 36.4 you are not setting out to harm others but to protect yourself, to protect your own light. This may mean being somewhat underhand but in a good cause. In 36.4 you are right up close to that which threatens your integrity, you can see it for all that it is, it is revealed to you, but it doesn't catch you, you escape.

As for its connection to 55 well to be honest I don't really trouble myself about seeking a connection but if i had to I'd maybe see 55 as a culmination of the situation and maybe 'getting away with it', as being successful in your subterfuge to protect your light is a culmination of the situation. Also like I said in 36.4 your enemy is revealed to you, you know it it and in 55 all you need to know is there. The fan yao 55.4 is said to be a kind of mirror image of the line and in 55.4 ''he meets his hidden lord' - he makes perhaps some kind of secret connection -

rosada

January 16th, 2008, 10:32 PM

Hi,
In the situation I was refering to the woman discovered her boyfriend was having an affair. She had been unhappy with the partnership anyway, but trying to make things work. When she discovered he had been unfaithful it was 36.4 like in that she now had discovered the inmost sentiment of his heart and could feel justified in leaving - that is, she could get away with breaking up with him without apology. I thought it interesting that he then, rather than being able to just accept he'd been a jerk and lost her, has been threatening to take her to court on some bogus charge. so it was as if the 36.4 led to 55 which refers to lawsuits, "The superior man decides lawsuits and carries out punishments." so I just thought it was interesting that there was a sort of 36.4 incident and then a sort of 55. incident, but I don't understand why one would lead to the other. Especially cause 36.4 says leaving, slipping away unseen, and then 55 is everything out in full view???

trojan

January 16th, 2008, 11:19 PM

Well in order to slip away unseen you have to be pretty much aware of every danger surrounding you. But also in the lines of 55 there is much about ones view being obscured, as in line 2 and 3. Also perhaps its not quite right to say in 55 everything is out in full view, rather I meant that the situation is full, ripened, matured but has many possibilities within it, so many in fact it can be hard to see the wood for the trees. 55 is profusion, so much going on you don't know where to look, where to focus.

But then I don't see a line automatically 'leading to' the hexagram it changes to in terms of meaning as the relating hexagram is the context (inc past/present/future) not always a future tendency. Also often it simply does not fit and trying to make a connection or a perfect link where there isn't one seems dubious to me so i don't worry over it much -like for example how can 36.6 'lead to' 22 ? I do tend not to look much further than the hexagram I'm in so to speak. I think i have a pretty narrow view whereas you are trying much harder to make connections and do seem to be developing a much broader view of how all the hexagrams inter -relate. Thats a good thing, you help me widen my viewpoint :bows:

Yes I see how your friends situation did appear to be like 36.4. I guess i would see that situation as in the midst of profusion(55) where she could perceive many different factors she saw through to the heart of the trouble and took effective evasive action (36.4). Infact the legal process in 55 could be said to be her own decision to quit with him. You are seeing the 55 as a follow on from the 36.4, but I'm not necessarily - see what I mean - phew this is complex

charly

January 16th, 2008, 11:29 PM

For me 36.4 is ... a sneaky line ... you might be acting a bit shady ... you have to do what you have to do...

Troyan:

I also believe that the advice is «do your work»

the chinese text:

入ru4: to enter /
于yu2: at / to
左zuo3: left / left side / east side / improper /
腹fu4: belly / paunch /

ENTER INTO LEFT BELLY
enter into the xxx belly

獲huo4: to catch / to obtain / to capture /
明ming2: clear / bright / to understand / lucid /
夷yi2: barbarian / tribe / bird / wound /
之zhi1: 's / him / her / it /
心xin1: heart / mind /

CATCH MING-YI ' S HEART
catch the heart of MingYi

于yu2: at / to / in
出chu1 / to go out /
門men2: door / gate / passage
庭ting2: court / courtyard /

IN GOING OUT GATE COURT
by going out the gate's court

At firsth it seems that it exhort us to take an omen from bird entrails, enter to the left belly, take the heart... Thus Ming-Yi is a bird?

But it follows: by means of exiting from the court ! We are entering, we are exiting (not our hands). It's not about taking omens.

It's about we entering in a house, or in a body. But which house? Which body? Shady project indeed.

One thing is clear Ming-Yi has a heart. Ming-Yi may be a bird. If we are Ming-Yi we are taken our own heart.

Maybe the advice for a rescue: hurry up, enter sneaky, take the main and get away. It's about entering and exiting, passing by. Anb about getting the most important.

Maybe ...

Yours,

Charly

rosada

January 17th, 2008, 12:01 AM

Ah! Hadn't thought of 55. Abundance as meaning a profusion of things and one needing to cut through to what is important, but yes, of course, that would explain why the advice for 55. is DECIDE lawsuits, that is, decide out of all the profusion of facts, which are the important ones. Thank YOU! :bows:

Thank you, too, Charly for posting these translations for us. I'm just amazed anyone was ever able to reach an understanding of the symbols when they have so many possible meanings.

miakoda

January 17th, 2008, 04:38 AM

Dobro had a different take on this line in another thread:

...when you draw 36.4, the Yi's telling you that you're penetrating to the heart of the matter, to the heart of what's queering everything, and that by doing so you are free to emerge from the situation, emerge into a realm of freer movement. Ta-da! (That's why the relating hexagram is 55 - very sweet.)

And I seem to remember a thread (although I can't find it now) that saw this line as being a description of capturing someone's cold heart, then leaving the darkness behind to move into 55. I don't know if anyone has had any direct experience with it turning out that way, but it makes sense with 55 as the resulting hexagram.

Cheers,

Miakoda

proserpine

January 17th, 2008, 09:30 AM

It's an eclipse of *your* light! The Sun is blocked by the earth and so the light is not showing now.It's an eclipse of sorts, or, the Sun is hidden by the earth.
You can't speak up, and be heard and understood, so the various ways to handle the cruelty and "darkness" are discussed.
It is an eclipse of sorts reallyu, because the ruiler and you are not able to see one another (understanding, and truth are eclpsed.But the image is that of the Darkness representing the head/ruler/mind/ reason/higher-ups /one's higher mind).
Different than #55.
Think about it--36 is also called "Darkening of the Light"
(usually your own light or can be referring to the rulers' light meaning he (whatever "he" represents to you in your situation) is not able to see the truth because of darkness that has encroached.
#55 refers to Sun at midday shining brightly, and (whomever) enjoying it (although I'm wiht the woman who said she hates sun--me too).But the metaphor is to shine and be seen in the Sun, because as usual the light wil be impaired again, before it clears and/or rises again.
So enjoy it now, and be happy, and at peace.
In Darkening of the Light, no.36, there is no peace and happiness except for acceptance of the impossibly twisted, darkened condition.Our inner atitude has to be sure and whole--our inner self that no one can touch --hold on to that, because the King and his men--are not hearing you and you might as well not try.:brickwall:

proserpine

January 17th, 2008, 09:35 AM

Miakoda is correct.Line 4 means seeing how it is and leaving.Sometimes it means you can lkeave because no one notices you.It does change to #55..I just pictured itm and if you think of the structure of the lines, then, yes, it would change to Abundance or Peaking

proserpine

January 17th, 2008, 09:49 AM

Rosada, I've found that the I Ching speaks on may levels of expereince at once/.It may have well meant that your freind saw what was going on, and left (relaized not just that she could quit w/o guilt, but could see it wa snot just her imagination that somethig was wrong.
And, yes, he took *her* to court for a made up reason, but, she was probably going to have to remember her own boundaries and keep her own counsel because he was wrong, and in at least a metaphorical way, insane..(meaning he was not thinking straight, realistically or soberly by cheating, and then trying to punish *her*).
That imo isthe reference to the recourse to legaltie, it's abstract as well as actual, maybe even more so...also for her to remember that she's free(out in the Sun at noontime, no more darkening of the light) but not necessarily free forever.
Still--#55 usually meanszomething like" be where you are and enjoy what you have--tomorrow is a new day, let tomorrow take care of itself.

proserpine

January 17th, 2008, 09:57 AM

Rosada, actually, I too like Murphy's interpretations.While I am no longer a Christian, his interpretations are comfrting, and as well--uncannily true to the meaning (strangely since it's Biblical).becuase if you se emy earleir remark, that's what I sugested as an interpreation and not thinking of M7urphy's either...she saw how irrational, and caught up in his affair (and maybe even more)her boyfriend was, so she can leave, knowing it was not her fault, she was not crazy for feeling something was not working.
Detaching, in that sense, physically, *and* emotionally is what Murphy is talking about--leaving the scene peacefully without causing more problems forher own self by trying to get an irrational person to see reality..Know what I mean?(I think you definitely so, too!:-)

rosada

January 17th, 2008, 05:37 PM

Proserpine, hey I really got your connection that the boyfriend fulfilled the definition of "insane"! LOL! That sums up what 36 is all about doesn't it? The examples the I Ching refers to are the good men held captive by "insane" rulers in ancient times but we sure come up with those conditions today. In other words, we have to survive in a world where the rules and the rulers are not just hard or stronger, they are downright crazy. 36 tells us how to survive these circumstances: veil your light. 36.4 tells what to do when the situation is impossible and you CAN leave - do it, don't try to fix a crazy situation just get the heck out. Then 36.5 tells what to do when you can't leave. The ancient example is of a good man in the court of an evil tyrant. A modern life situation might be when you have a job and your supervisor is crazy but you can't afford to quit.

rosada

January 17th, 2008, 05:42 PM

charly

January 17th, 2008, 09:14 PM

... Thank you, too, Charly for posting these translations for us. I'm just amazed anyone was ever able to reach an understanding of the symbols when they have so many possible meanings.
Hi, Rosada:

Tha's fine. The more the meanings the more the ease. But there are no warranties of truth.

«... en mi soledad / he visto cosas muy claras / que no son verdad...»
«... in my solitude I have seen very clear things that were not truth...»
A. Machado

H.36 has something to do with sun and light but also with hunting, archery, chevalry, yi people (1), korean people (2) ... I wonder if the belly isn't the strong horse belly, behind which the rider can conceal himself if wounded ...

http://www.steppenreiter.de/Korea/kema-Dateien/image036.jpg
The fifth posture is termed 'hiding on horse's left or right side(左右?裏藏身)' and called 'hiding on side' in popular name. Execute hiding on horse's right side and grab sand and soil and throw being hanged on the top of feet with the head to the ground.
Then execute hiding on horse's left side.

http://www.steppenreiter.de/Korea/kema-Dateien/image033.jpg

[a text about the history of horseback archery, with many prints]

Korean Equestrian Martial Arts
From: http://www.steppenreiter.de/Korea/kema.htm

Maybe Ming-Yi is the Horse?

Yours,

Charly

______________________
(1) Yi is the name of an old barbarian tribe.
(2) In Ji-Zi myth the Count of Ji ends his life a a korean ruler, although true for koreans maybe not historic.

ravenstar

January 18th, 2008, 01:53 AM

0 Six in the fifth place means:
Darkening of the light as with Prine Chi.
Perseverance furthers.

Prince Chi lived at the court of the evil tyrant Chou Hsin, who although not mentioned by name, furnishes the histroical example on which this whole situation is based, Prince Chi was a relative of the tyrant and could not withdraw from court; therefore he concealed his true sentiments and feigned insanity. Although he was held a slave, he did not allow external misery to deflect him from his convictions.
This provides a teaching for those who cannot leave their posts in times of darkness. In order to escape the danger, they need invincible perseverance of spirit and redoubled caution in their dealings with the world.

When I read this rosada, I thought of the song the Beatles sang, "Blackbird", "Blackbird singing in the dead of night, take these broken wings and learn to fly. All your life, you were only waiting for this moment to arise."

Is this a form of detachment, self restraint, discipline? Separating ourselves from the external pain (impossible people) so that we keep our energy within, as well as becoming focused and aware of the patterns and symbols around us. We develop a strategy of watching the tyrant, keeping an eye and keeping track of their strenghts as well as their vulnerabilties/weaknesses. Instead of succumbing to the tyrant, which is exhausting in itself, we pay close attention to everything around us. Reminds me of the series Prison Break.

ravenstar

rosada

January 19th, 2008, 03:47 AM

I like your "Blackbird" connection, ravenstar. Hey, Topal, when you are through with dessert how about starting a movie and music thread?

rosada

January 19th, 2008, 03:51 AM

# Six at the top means:
Not light but darkness.
First he climbs to heaven,
Then he is plunged into the depths of the earth.

Here the climax of the darkening is reached. The dark power at first held so high a place that it could wound all who were on the side of good and of the light. But in the end it perishes of its own darkness, for evil must itself fall at the very moment when it has wholly overcome the good, and thus cosumed the energy to which it owed its duration.

"First he climbed up to heaven." Thus he might have been able to illumine the lands of all the four quarters of the earth.
"Then he plunged into the depths of the earth," because he lost his rule.

First he held a position through which he might have been able to enlighten all the people of the relm. Instead however, he made it his business to injure men, and thus transgressed the rule that binds one who governs; as a result, he prepared his own downfall.
The line stands at the top, where the earth veils the sun most heavily; but it is also the first to be unmasked in its sinister character when the sun reappears.

ravenstar

January 20th, 2008, 04:24 AM

Being a newbie, I could be totally wrong with this. If so, I’m hoping someone will set me straight.

It seems that no matter how pure our intentions are, we will always create the polarity of both sides – the dark and the light. (You cannot go high without going down). So within ourselves, there is a world that is partly at unrest and partly at peace…..the dark and the light.

Psychologists have been telling us that the human psyche is made up of paradoxes, contradictions and oppositions. What I find rather interesting about this is that the mind creates with thoughts and logic, it sees with light. And the heart creates with emotions, feelings and dreams, it sees in the dark.

36.6 could be a time when our psyche feels hopelessly let down by our own self designed world which is starting to crumple around us. What was once our source of strength and sustenance rears its ugly head and now threatens to tear and rip us apart. The accompanying feeling is a deep and unexplainable loneliness that makes one feel like an outcast, exiled from a life that now seems to have taken on no meaning. We’re in the throes of the dark night of the soul. You can’t seem to reorganize or regroup yourself and nothing is more frightening and depressing. We feel separated from life, it’s like we’re living in a vacuum, disconnected from and numb of any Feelings. All we want is for it to stop! And it will if we begin to heal our wounds by stepping into our own shadows….and it won’t be easy! But once we do, the dark won't scare us anymore.

ravenstar

proserpine

January 20th, 2008, 07:38 AM

Thank you Rosada for responding to me. :-)yes--exactly-- in modern times, it could well be a crazy or cruel supervisor or structure and /or family member or partner that we can't work with or live with and "cant change"!
I'm so glad you got my point! ;)

maremaria

January 20th, 2008, 03:05 PM

...... We’re in the throes of the dark night of the soul. ....
ravenstar

Hi Ravenstar,
I liked what you said and this is how I see 36.6 .

In a real dark night of the soul it is always three o clock in the morning, day after day." As F.Scott Fitzgerald said. The suffering seems unending and our arid mind and numb heart enemies instead of alliances.

After the sunset, during the nights we cannot believe that the sun will reborn the next day and all this about the life-death- rebirth cycle sounds so foolish and frustrating. But the frustration is because we are afraid to go through the darkness to reach the light And here the choice is either stay forever between those two world or say to ourself “ok , this is how things are. Day, night and then another new day.” This “night” will pass too. Embrace the joy and the sadness, the light and the darkness, the good and the evil.

And then 22. simple beauty. Maybe as a lotus flower, floating above the muddy waters

Maria

charly

January 21st, 2008, 11:26 PM

... we are afraid to go through the darkness to reach the light And here the choice is either stay forever between those two world or say to ourself “ok , this is how things are. Day, night and then another new day.” This “night” will pass too. Embrace the joy and the sadness, the light and the darkness, the good and the evil...

María:

I also believe that that the «darkness» from which the I Ching speaks is not a bad thing.

From the reading of Wilhelm/Baynes some people could extract that the I Ching presents a sort of fighting between light and darkess, each under the command of its own Lord, and that the darkness must be destroyed.

I think that the advice of the Yi is to take light and shadows as inseparable and both necessary. I like more another W/B idea, that we must take care of our own light. Sometimes we must veil our light.

Sometimes our light is poor but it serves our goals.

http://www.corea.it/images/g/genre-paint4.jpg
Amanti sotto la luna di Sin Yun-bok

Candle lantern form: http://www.corea.it/lanterne_chorong.htm

From Korea, the supposed last country of Yi-Zi. Sub-rosa affair.

Chinese text curiosities:

From line 6:

不bu4 / not / no / un.. /
明ming2 / clear / light / bright / to understand /
晦hui4 / dark / darkness / night / unlucky / last day of lunar month / moonless night /

unclear darkness (not clear the origin or the nature of darkness)
deep darkness, absolute darkness (darkess without any clarity)

But darknes is 晦hui = 日 ri4 sun + 每 mei3 (all / every / each)
and 每 mei3 = concealment + 母 mu3 (mother / exhuberant woman)
an exhuberant woman concealed from the sun

Maybe when speaking of climbing to the sky and entering into the earth the Yi is not speaking of the sun but of the woman.

From line 5:

箕ji1: winnow basket / flat basket (for agricultural work or for offerings ?)
子zi3: child / master / Count / Lord /
之zhi1: ...'s / him / her / it /
明ming2: clear / light / bright / to understand /
夷yi2: a barbarian /

I wonder if 箕子 is the name of Count of Ji and why was not censored from a Zhou book, being Ji-Zi a Shang noble.

More literally it could be translated as Basket's Lord or as Basket's Child:

Basket's Lord: an agricultural deity in a world of cattle breeders ?
Baskets's Child: chidren that bears baskets in offerings were girls (1)

I wonder if Yi-Zi could have been a woman.

yours,

Charly
_______________________
(1) like the greek «caneforos»

Basket's

maremaria

January 22nd, 2008, 03:40 PM

Hi Charly,

I agree , that we must take care or our own light and veil it when necessary. But how to do that, when , and for what reasons is the taught part. And I think that this what this hex lines talks about. How to hide our light without feeling frustration with the other or with yourself.

Yesterday, an acquaintance of mine was talking to some others and me about her new job. After two years she finished studies, she found a job relate to his specialization. Yesterday was the 3rd day in her new position. She wasn’t happy at all although it was something that was looking for a long time ago. He darkness in that situation was not so awful. Common things we have to deal in a working environment. We tried to explain her that this is how things are in such environments but in her mind she believed that his “fire” was in danger. Will she was talking a image came in my mind. (Influenced from Bruce's comments of 36 :Light need not be shown to burn.Safer in the lighted cave than in a hostile wind)..She was holding a flamed torch and suddenly strong wind were blowing and a rain started, and she was shouting to the wind and rain and to what bring them.

Sometimes things are like that. Strong winds and rainfall are there and can put off our fire. But it is on our hand (most of the times) to go to our cave to protect our fire. No one else can do that. No one else will do that.

We have to accept the darkness and adapt. We can understand that dark exist but can not accepted deep inside us and we feel frustration, disappointment and all that fire-consuming feelings. Accepting is different than understanding. Accepting bears peace and brings peace inside us. Its like saying to the wind or “ok you are strong and you can put off my fire but I wont let you do that”. We cannot blame the wind for blowing; it is his nature to do that, but ourselves for not protecting our fire/life/being.

I like Lise’s line 4 : “Entering the left belly. Catching the heart of Hiding Brightness. Coming out of front door and courtyard.”

Coming out of frond door. I like a lot that “frond door” beautiful image.
Like Thiseus, entrering in the labyrinth, killing the Minotauros and then coming out.

Maria

charly

January 22nd, 2008, 05:40 PM

Hi Charly,

I agree , that we must take care or our own light and veil it when necessary ...Sometimes things are like that. Strong winds and rainfall are there and can put off our fire. ... Accepting is different than understanding. Accepting bears peace and brings peace inside us. Its like saying to the wind or “ok you are strong and you can put off my fire but I wont let you do that”... I like Lise’s line 4 : “Entering the left belly. Catching the heart of Hiding Brightness. Coming out of front door and courtyard.” ...

María:

Strong winds blowing our light menace to extinguish it, it's like we entering the left belly: if we must conceal us, we can hold alive the main of ours, our light, but we cann't retreat from the world, we must exit from our secret courts and live like common people live, sometimes we must mimetize like a lizard, but we mustn't surrender to stronger forces, don't turn out our light.

Maybe we must live in the darkness but the darkness isn't so bad if we kept our resources with us.

Remember:
«A naked woman in the dark has a clarity that light up us...»:
«Una mujer desnuda y en lo oscuro tiene una claridad que nos alumbra...»
Mario Benedetti
from: http://www.palabravirtual.com/index.php?ir=ver_voz1.php&wid=195&p=Mario+Benedetti&t=Una+mujer+desnuda+y+en+lo+oscuro

And the chinese character here used for «darkness» depicts a naked woman concealed from the sun, a naked woman in the dark... instead of a candle.

Yours,

Charly

sparhawk

January 22nd, 2008, 05:48 PM

And the chinese character here used for «darkness» depicts a naked woman concealed from the sun, a naked woman in the dark... instead of a candle.

Yours,

Charly

Ahem, I don't see a naked woman in that character but you can easily convince me... :D

charly

January 22nd, 2008, 08:11 PM

Ahem, I don't see a naked woman in that character but you can easily convince me... :D

Luis:

Of course. If Sears can see a woman dressing the hair, why could I not see a naked woman in the dark. Why to exaggerate the breasts as the small seal character do if not naked?

Maybe Benedetti knows the I Ching, the naked woman is not only necesary but indespensable in case of:

grief, distress
blackout
moonless night
Una mujer desnuda y en lo oscuro
tiene una claridad que nos alumbra
de modo que si ocurre un desconsuelo
un apagón o una noche sin luna
es conveniente y hasta imprescindible
tener a mano una mujer desnuda. (1)
Benedetti
from: http://www.clarin.com/diario/especiales/benedetti/poema2.htm
Do you need more reasons?

Maybe you wonder from where cames the light to the naked woman. Surely she has not a fluorescent skin like fishes from the deep. Not only the darkness is unclear, also the light. We don't nkow the light origin or nature, but the light is there:

Menos tu vientre
todo es oscuro,
menos tu vientre
claro y profundo. (2)

M.Hernández
from: http://www.poemasyrelatos.net/poemas/m/066_menos-miguel-her.htm?Autor=325

Maybe this guy also knows the I Ching! Maybe both guys also thinks that if Ming-Yi is a bird, Ji-Zi could be a woman (the child that bears basket, the canephoros). It reminds me another poet:

Que púberes canéforas te ofrenden el acanto,
que sobre tu sepulcro no se derrame el llanto,
sino rocío, vino, miel:
que el pámpano allí brote, las flores de Citeres,
¡y que se escuchen vagos suspiros de mujeres
bajo un simbólico laurel!

Rubén Darío (to Verlaine)
from: http://www.poema-de-amor.com.ar/mostrar-poema.php?poema=4512

H.36 key words: benefit / profit , light, clarity, darkness, belly, heart, bird, horse, sky, earth

Un abrazo,

Charly

_________________
(1) translated by BabelFish:
«A woman undresses and in the dark has a clarity that illuminates us so that if a blackout happens a grief or a night without moon it is advisable and even essential to have a naked woman by hand»

(2) translated by BabelFish:
«Except your belly everything is dark, except your clear and deep belly.»

(3) translated by BabelFish:
«That puber canephores offer you the acant, that on your tomb the weeping is not spilled, but dew to you, came, honey: that the pámpano appears there, the flowers of Citeres, and that vague sighs of women under a symbolic laurel are listened to!» (Maybe BabelFish is not the best for this work)

maremaria

January 22nd, 2008, 08:39 PM

And the chinese character here used for «darkness» depicts a naked woman concealed from the sun, a naked woman in the dark... instead of a candle.

Yours,

Charly

Can you tell me how do you perceive that image ? Cannot understand it.

Maria

charly

January 23rd, 2008, 07:02 PM

Can you tell me how do you perceive that image ? Cannot understand it.

Maria
María:

The chinese character is 晦hui4.
A good source in the web for character analysis is:
http://www.chineseetymology.org/ by Richard Sears

Here you can paste the chinese character, say 晦, and you get:

traditional and simplified characters
phonetic and signific componentes
etymology
Shuo Wen quotation
english senses
seal, bronze and oracle identified forms (sometimes few, sometimes a lot)

for hui4:
Simplified: Unicode := 6666 GB2312-80 := BBDE 晦
Traditional: Unicode := 6666 Big5 := B1E2 晦
Phonetic: 每 mei3 wu3 母 mu3
Signific: 日 ri4 sun
Etymology: Phonetic Signific, aspect of the sun 日 - dark
Simplification: no simplification
Cantonese:
Taiwanese:
ShuoWen: 月盡也從日每聲
English Senses For: hui4 the last day of every month in the lunar calendar / night / evening / dark / obscure / indistinguishable / unlucky / bad luck

Character: 晦
Class: Traditioal=Simplified

Seal Characters s04818

LST Seal Characters L21595 L21596

Bronze Characters [none]

Oracle Characters j16160

Copyright (c) 2003 Richard Sears

From: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E6%99%A6&submitButton1=Etymology

There you see that:

晦hui4 is a compund of 日 ri4 sun and 每 mei3 every/each
每 mei3 in turn is a compound of a top stroke and 母 mu3 mother / woman (a woman with enphasis in her nipples)

The top stroke looks like a grass shoot but sometimes in seen as something that makes shadow → concealment. If you take this last view, you have sun + concealment + woman, a woman concealed from the sun, thus dark, darkness.

I only point at the nakedness of the woman, if you don't trust me see the seal character http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Seal/S00000/s09100/s09144.gif

Isn't she naked? In oracle characters the woman is kneeling.

Maybe if we take the upper stroke as grass shoot, the darkness is not so clear:

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Seal/S00000/s04800/s04818.gif

Here the woman has the shape of an amazon. She has something in the head like plumes or a crown, a woman of high rank, a Lady. Maybe The Bright Lady.

I used only Sears but there are other sources.

I believe: NAKED WOMAN IN THE DARK or BRIGHT LADY are the same, a woman veiling her light, a woman shining in the shadows, H.36.

Yours,

Charly

sparhawk

January 23rd, 2008, 11:17 PM

I only point at the nakedness of the woman, if you don't trust me see the seal character

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Seal/S00000/s09100/s09144.gif

Isn't she naked? In oracle characters the woman is kneeling.

I stand corrected... Actually, she's quite the looker! :D

Un abrazo,

maremaria

January 24th, 2008, 02:54 PM

Thank you Charly

Maria

charly

January 24th, 2008, 06:20 PM

I stand corrected... Actually, she's quite the looker! :D
Un abrazo,
Luis:

Better see these modern chinese «little mothers» (1)

http://www.cnarts.cn/zl/UploadFiles_8608/200701/20070123094114254_S.jpg
with more detail at: http://www.cnarts.cn/zl/11360.html

You will understand the reason why for me the meaning of 母 is not mother but exhuberant woman.

Maybe the influence of our countries slang.

Un abrazo,

Charly
____________________
(1) «mamitas»

charly

January 24th, 2008, 07:57 PM

Thank you Charly

Maria
María:

Here you have the evolution of the character:

http://www.npm.gov.tw/english/exhbition/ewen0630/pictures/a05s.jpg
The pictograph for the character of mother (mu 母) in Chinese represents the form of a female kneeling with her hands on her knees (the related pictograph for girl [nu 女] is symbol of ). The addition of two dots suggests breast feeding, thereby making the distinction of motherhood in traditional Chinese society. A horizontal line above suggests a hairpin, also indicating adulthood.
From: http://www.npm.gov.tw/english/exhbition/ewen0630/b.htm

The seal characters are at the top of each page in the KangXi ZiDian, there is a big image of the page at:

http://www.kangxizidian.com/kangxi/0588.gif

Look at the difference between the first and the third characters, the last has one horizontal stroke instead of tw