Sequence of the Hexagrams

[rosada]

In my recent efforts to memorize the IMAGES as translated by Wilhelm I have been becoming more aware of the sequence and the story it appears to tell. However, I understand the standard sequence we all use is not the only one considered valid. Can anyone give me a little background on why we use the sequence we do and any thoughts on alternative patterns?

[sergio]

Hello Rosada;
there is a lot of excellentinformation about sequences in Steve Marshall's site and I'm pretty sure there was a very interesting blog by Hilary on that subject not so long ago.Also check Richard S.Cook on "Chinese Combinatorics" if you understand and speak fluid gibberish(the book is probably understood by Cook and his close friends only) and a series of very interesting thoughts on it by Frank Keegan.Also J Van de Berghe's site tackles the subject admirably.Nobody has arrived (yet)to a satisfactory answer to that question you posed.With all due respect from a junior member to a senior member I thought you already knew about all this.In any case ,check all this avenues and you will have some answers and many more questions.But I agree with Hilary on this one:the sequence is irrelevant.Historically there seems to be -or had been -three different sequences.The one we use now is the received sequence from the Imperial edition-Kang SHI -1715.Have fun!
Sergio

[rosada]

Thank you Sergio. I was able to check out the Steve Marshall site but all I came up with was explanations of why the arrangement of the hexagrams made sence mathmatically. (I may not have explored his site sufficiently.)

What I am wanting to know is if there is an agreed upon plot line to the hexagram sequence. Wilhelm gives an explanation for why each hexagram follows the one before it in the second half of his translation but I don't find these explanations very satisfactory. They seem far fetched. For example, in discribing why 5.Waiting should follow 4.Youthful Folly we're told, "When things are still small, one must not leave them without nourishment. Hence there follows the hexagram Hsu. Hsu means the way to eating and drinking." This just doesn't satisfy me. I mean, I don't think the obvious next step when one is dealing with Folly is to say, "Well give the kid a sandwich." I can come up with my own reason for linking Youthful Folly to Waiting. I would say "When one is new to a situation asking questions wont always bring clarity. Sometimes when you are young or new you just have to be patient, you just have to Wait until you see a pattern that shows you what to do next." And perhaps you could add that when you are waiting you might as well enjoy yourself, hense the eating and drinking and good cheer...
And then look at the next explanation Wilhelm gives for why 5. Waiting leads to 6. Conflict, "Over meat and drink there is certain to be conflict." Come on, that's just plain not true. In my version, I would say Waiting leads to the resolution of Conflict. That is when things are not moving ahead and we find we're stalled, having to wait gives an opportunity to discuss our plans and intentions, to go back as Conflict's IMAGE advises and, "Carefully consider the beginning," that is review original intentions so we can figure out why our intentions are manefesting as they are, understand what is causing the delay, the conflict, and thus see what we need to do to disentangle the blockage. Thus:
4. the Young Fool who can't get his questions answered is guided to
5. Wait until things become a bit more clear by themselves and they will become more clear if he considers that
6.the world around him is the manefestation of his own original intention. Once he recognizes that, once the Fool realizes he created the delays and conflicts with his own half completed mixed signals, then he knows how to...
7. Get personally involved so as to sort out the confusion.

Is Wilhelm giving his own ideas when he talks about The Sequence, or is this a translation from a Chinese text?

So anyway, what I'm looking for here is not the mathmatical explanation of why the hexagrams were placed in this sequence, but the story line. I have come up with my own version of why one hexagram follows another, but I am wondering if there is an official one. In my own attempt to link the hexagrams together into a cohesive whole I am seeing a story of The Superior Man first attempting to impose order on the outer world and ultimately coming to recognize that he must discover and resolve the disorder within himself.

[sergio]

Hi Rosada;
the question of the sequences is a difficult one indeed.What you are looking for is the crux of Gregory whincup's translation,'Rediscovering the I Ching".In it the tries first to present the YI in its "pure"or primitive form-the way it would have been in the Bronze Age before the Ten Wings and other commentaries were appended to it.Second he presents the whole sequence as the rise and fall of a certain character-warrior would be king-and explains the correlation of the hexagrams thus.The truth of the matter is that the King Wen sequence(the one we use or received)IS NOT MATHEMATHICALLY PERFECT.There seems to be no logic to it and so far noone has explain the rationale behind it.Whilhelm only explains the sequence taking in consideration the explanation from one of the wings-the second one if I am not mistaken.Other sequences may be based on a sound mathemathical approach as ,for example,Shao yung's famous square and circle arrangements but it is not -in my opinion-technically a sequence but an arrangement.The one discovered in the Mawandui silk copy is indeed different to the received one and it does have a logical organization.It is based on the interpretation of trigrams as family members(father,mother sons,daughters)and it follows a determined order or hierarchy as in a proper family thus derivating the hexagrams under a strict order.But that is as far as it gets.(so far)Please bear in mind that in the before mentioned second wing where the sequence of the hexagrams is discussed ,the implied order is (if follows as is written)different to the sequence in the text,namely the received text that Wilhelm translated.Thus the section is usually called 'mixed Hexagrams or Jumbled Hexagrams.there are other interpretations.For example Frank Keegan describes it very interestingly as a process of creation and development on Earth
A similar approach is taken by J.van DeBerghe in his Feng Shui site.H describes it as a landscape as seen by King Wen.Mine is a rudimentary description of his theory but I will try to provide a link to his site later.As you can see it is a very thorny issue to deal with ,with no clear answers in sight and nothing yet proven and accepted.There are said to be two other sequences that were lost in history maybe representative of different schols or interpretations of the text.Not so long ago Harmen Mesker provide a link to an excellent article dealing with analysis of these hipothetycal sequences.Again,as I am writing this from memory I will try to provide these links afterwards.Last but not least Bradford Hatcher provides a wealth of excellent material on the Yi so please also research his invaluable information.GOT TO GO!
Sergio

[sergio]

Here is the link th D.van De Berghe sitehttp://www.fourpillars.net/articles.php
Sergio

[jesed]

Is Wilhelm giving his own ideas when he talks about The Sequence, or is this a translation from a Chinese text?


Hi rosada

What Wilhelm called "sequence" is his translation of one of the ten wings. Therefore, it is original Yijing. (Remember: Yiging is Zhouyi PLUS the Wings)

Best

[sparhawk]

Jesed answered correctly. Furthermore, what's translated as "The Sequence" is the Ninth Wing or Xu Gua. So, it isn't something Wilhelm interpreted on his own.

[rosada]

Thank you Jesed and Sparhawk!
One of these days I'm going to write out my own Sequence. Not to replace the ancients, but just as an exercise to set my own mind in order. In fact I just asked the I Ching for a comment on my intention and received

51.
The superior man sets his life in order
And examines himself.

So maybe this is not a bad idea.

Now to do it...

[rosada]

Rather than posting my own ideas on the sequence, I thought it would be more helpful to post what Wilhelm has to say...

There is no text for the first two hexagram so we take up the story at hexagram 3...

After heaven and earth have come into existance, individual being develop. It is these individual beings that fill the space between heaven and earth. [It is like a difficult first birth] Hence there follows the hexagram of DIFFICULTY AT THE BEGINNING.

When, after difficulties at the beginning, things have just been born, they are always wrapped at birth in obtuseness. Hence there follows the hexagram of YOUTHFUL FOLLY. For youthful folly means youthful obtuseness. This is the state of things in their youth.
YOUTHFUL FOLLY means confusion and subsequent enlightenment.

When things are still small, one must not leave them without nourishment. Thus youthful folly leads to eating and drinking, WAITING.


Over meat and drink, there is certain to be conflict. Eating and drinking leads to CONFLICT.


When there is conflict, masses are sure to rise up. Hence Conflict leads to THE ARMY. Army means mass.

Among the masses there is surely a reason for uniting. Hence the army leads to HOLDING TOGETHER.

Through holding together, restraint is certain to come about. Holding together leads to restraint, THE TAMING POWER OF THE SMALL.

When beings are subjected to restraint the mores arise; hence there follows rules for good CONDUCT.

Good conduct, then contentment; thus calm prevails. Hence there follows the hexagram of PEACE. Peace means union, interrelation.

Things cannot remain forever united; hence there follows the hexagram of STANDSTILL.

Things cannot be at a standstill forever. Hence there follows FELLOWSHIP WITH MEN.

Through fellowship with men things are sure to fall to one's lot. Hence there follows POSSESSION IN GREAT MEASURE.

He who possesses something great must not make it too full; hence there follows the hexagram of MODESTY.

When one possesses something great and is modest, there is sure to be enthusiasm. Thus modesty leads to ENTHUSIASM.

Where there is enthsiasm, there is certain to be following. Hence there follows FOLLOWING.

When one follows others with pleasure, there are certain to be undertakings. Hence there follows WORK ON WHAT HAS BEEN SPOILED.

When there are things to do, one can become great. Hence there follows APPROACH. Approach means becoming great.

When things are great, one can contemplate them. Hence there follows CONTEMPLATION.

When there is something that can be contemplated, there is something that creates union. Hence there follows BITTING THROUGH. Biting through means union.

Things should not unite abruptly and ruthlessly; hence there follows GRACE.

When one goes too far in adornment, success exhausts itself. Hence there follows SPLITTING APART.

Things cannot be destroyed once and for all, When what is above is completely split apart, it returns below. Hence follows RETURN.

By turning back one is freed of guilt. Hence there follows INNOCENCE.

When innocence is present, it is possible to tame. Hence there follows THE TAMING POWER OF THE GREAT.

When things are held fast, there is the provision of nourishment. Hence there follows THE CORNERS OF THE MOUTH.

Without provision of nourishment one cannot move; hence there follows PREPONDERANCE OF THE GREAT.

Things cannot be permanently in an overweighted state. Hence there follows THE ABYSMAL. The Abysmal means a pit.

In a pit there is certain to be something clinging within. Hence there follows THE CLINGING. The Clinging means resting on something.

After there are heaven and earth there are the individual things...After the individual things have come into being there are the two sexes...After there are male and female, there is the relationship between husband and wife...Then the relationship between father and son..and prince and servant..and superior and inferior. After the relationship between superior and inferior exists, the rules of propriety and of right can operate.

The way of husband and wife must not be other than long-lasting. Hence DURATION.

Things cannot abide forever in their place: hence RETREAT.

Things cannot retreat forever, hence THE POWER OF THE GREAT.

Things cannot stay forever in a state of power; hence PROGRESS. Progress means expansion.

Expansion will certainly encounter resistance and injury. Hence DARKENING OF THE LIGHT. Darkening of the light means damage, injury.

He who is injured without, of a certainty draws back into his family. Hence THE FAMILY.

When the way of the family comes to an end, misunderstandings come. Hence OPPOSITION. Opposition means misunderstandings.

Through opposition difficulties necessarily arise. Hence OBSTRUCTION.

Through release of tension something is sure to be lost, hence DECREASE.

If decrease goes on and on, it is certain to bring about increase. Hence INCREASE.

If increase goes on unceasingly there is certain to be a break-through. Hence there follows BREAK-THROUGH. Break-through means resoluteness.

Through resoluteness one is certain to encounter something. Hence there follows COMING TO MEET.

When creatures meet one another, they mass together. Hence there follows GATHERING TOGETHER.

Massing toward the top is called pushing upward. Hence, PUSHING UPWARD.

If one pushes upward without stopping, he is sure to meet with oppression. Hence, OPPRESSION.

He who is oppressed above is sure to turn downward. Hence THE WELL.

The setup of the well must necessarily be revolutionized in the course of time. Hence REVOLUTION.

Nothing transforms so much as the ting. Hence THE CALDRON.

Among the custodians of the sacred vessels, the eldest son comes first. Hence, THE AROUSING. (The Arousing means movement.)

Things cannot move continuously, one must make them stop. Hence KEEPING STILL.

Things cannot stop forever, hence DEVELOPEMENT. Developement means to progress.

Through progress one is sure to reach the place where one belongs. Hence THE MARRYING MAIDEN. The Marrying Maiden means the end of maidenhood.

That which attains a place in which it is at home is sure to become great. Hence ABUNDANCE. Abundance means greatness.

Whatever greatness may exhaust itself upon, this much is certain: it loses its home. Hence THE WANDERER.

The wanderer has nothing that might receive him; hence THE GENTLE, THE PENETRATING. The Gentle means going into.

When one has penetrated something, one rejoices. Hence THE JOYOUS.

After joy comes dispersal. Hence, DISPERSION.

Things cannot forever separate. hence, LIMITATION.

Through being limited, things are made dependable. Hence INNER TRUTH. Inner truth means dependability.

When one has the trust of creatures, one sets them in motion; hence there follows PREPONDERANCE OF THE SMALL. Preponderance of the small signifies transition.

He who stands above things brings them to completion. Hence there follows AFTER COMPLETION. After Completion means making firm.

things cannot exhaust themselves. Hence there follows, at the end, the hexagram of BEFORE COMPLETION.

[sergio]

So what's YOUR point?Are you going to copy the whole 9 th. wing?
Sergio

[rosada]

Yeah, pretty dry isn't it? I hadn't realized how dry until I started writing it all out. I just thought it would be helpful if people could read the whole sequence in one place. My intention after I get this up is to then write up MY version and maybe other people will want to post theirs.

[rosada]

Whew, okay that was interesting. Not sure I really get the whole picture any more clearly but reading it through did bring a few insights. Like I hadn't thought of Inner Truth as meaning Dependability particularly but when you see it as the out growth of Limitation it makes sence.

[hilary]

It's dry... and I don't believe Wilhelm himself thought much of it, which of course doesn't help. 'The setup of the Well must necessarily be revolutionized in the course of time'?! Oh dear; sounds like an expensive plumbing project. ('The dao of the Well doesn't allow things not to be Radically Changed.')

But I believe this is a mnemonic recorded by someone with a strong understanding of the sequence. No need, of course, to write out all you know - just enough to serve as a reminder to the students. (Maybe that's why it so often just says this progression is 'necessary' or 'inevitable' and leaves you trying to see why!) You work out how the dao of the Well demands change, or why eating and drinking in a context of Waiting might lead to Argument. (If, for instance, you'd left behind your confidence that there would be enough for everyone...)

But who knows what the original author had in mind? Anyway, the text gives a starting point for thinking about the Sequence's 'story', which can only be good. It's a remarkable, beautiful thing, that received sequence, full of interweaving patterns that all hint (in tantalising ways) at something bigger. The most exciting single account of it I've seen would be Danny van den Berghe's (http://www.fourpillars.net/articles.php) (scroll down for 'The Explanation of King Wen's Order' and 'I Ching Landscape', both pdf files), but part of the excitement is seeing how many different possible accounts, or rather fragments-of-accounts, there are.

[noxlux]

Howdy,

I always took the ninth wing to be a later ad hoc mnemonic device. More specifically I thought it's pseudologic connections between the hexagrams were in rhyme, simply in order to make it easier to remember by singing.

My knowledge of chinese howerver is to limited to confirm this. Do you know?

Best regards
Noxlux

[dobro]

The ramifications of pseudological connections in an ad hoc mnemonic device are apt to confound not only one's cognitive dexterity in its vain attempt to plumb the profounder depths of the truly multifaceted 'ecology' of the Yi, but also to defeat any attempted aesthetic appreciation of a more purely literary approach.

I rhyme
All the time

[sparhawk]

The ramifications of pseudological connections in an ad hoc mnemonic device are apt to confound not only one's cognitive dexterity in its vain attempt to plumb the profounder depths of the truly multifaceted 'ecology' of the Yi, but also to defeat any attempted aesthetic appreciation of a more purely literary approach.


Even if English was my first language, I couldn't have said that better... :D

[rosada]

I was just rereading this thread and realized I never acknowledged Sergio for his very detailed and helpful suggestions. Thank you for your post, Sergio, I followed up on some of your leads and got some useful insights.
Rosada

[noxlux]

*furiously raging icons*
:-) :-) :-)

Ok ok ok.

So here goes again.

I think it is part of chinese tradition to compose songs as an aid to the memory. Actually I thought the ninth wing was such a song. And that the connections proposed between the hexagrams were just whimsical ideas in order to create the songs lyrics in a way which can be rememebered.

Curiously I ask: is it possible to sing or rhytmically recite the ninth wing?

BREGER
N

[sergio]

Hi Noxlux,
I think you are right in saying it is a mnemonic device.I remember reading an article by Alfred Huang about songs and the I Ching.I'll try digging it but no guaranties because Huang's website is no longer functioning.I don't know Chinese so I wouldn't know if it rhymes or not but I wouldn't be surprised if it does.Sometimes we forget that the I Ching is not written in prose but in verse,a fact overlooked by translators too focus on conveying the meaning in spite of the form it was composed.
Do not get angry or frustrated,Dobro is the site's welcome commitee to junior members and will" bark at strangers"no matter what-even if agreeing with you.(LOL-LOL)
Sergio

[sergio]

Hello Rosada;
thanks for acknowledging previous communication.Glad to be of help,anytime.
Sergio

[lienshan]

The truth of the matter is that the King Wen sequence(the one we use or received)IS NOT MATHEMATHICALLY PERFECT.There seems to be no logic to it and so far noone has explain
the rationale behind it.

In 2002 this 3000 years old pottery pat with 4 six-number-sets + 1 arrow was found:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/attachment.php?attachmentid=399&d=1184489318

It's the hexagram sequence 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 in the king Wen order, if odd numbers symbolize
whole lines and even numbers symbolize broken lines? Studying this archaeological found
might explain the rationale behind the king Wen order, because the hidden secret might
be related to the original numbers instead of the later line-symbols? E.g. try this puzzle:

The even numbered hexagrams are vertical while the odd numbered are horisontal ...
and hexagram 7 is to be read from left to right (reversed) while hexagram 9 is to be
read from rigth to left (as usual) ...

Maybe this way is how at least chapter one (hexagram 1 to 30) was originally structured:

>-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T

( <=top left / >=top right / T=vertical between Tops / B=vertical between Bottoms)

That'll say, that one half of the even numbered hexagrams are between the bottom of
two odd hexagrams, while the other half are between the top of two odd hexagrams.

A problem is to show what's top and bottom of a hexagram ... all four hexagrams in the
sequence include at least one number 6 /\ showing a direction ... the only problematic
hexagram seen from this point of view is hexagram 1

lienshan

[lienshan]

Continued:

The structure with digits of four hexagrams like the above 7-8-9-10 found
could match the following text in The Ten Wings:

Shou Kua chapter two:

Heaven and Earth establish positions
Mountain and Lake circulate their material force
Thunder and Wind give rise to each other
Water and Fire refuse to destroy each other
In this manner the eight trigrams alternate with each other,
so that to enumerate what has passed, one follows their progress,
and to know what will come, one moves backward through them.

Sentence 1 means Hexagram 01 and 02
Sentence 2 means Hexagram 31 and 41
Sentence 3 means Hexagram 32 and 42
Sentence 4 means Hexagram 63 and 64

01-02-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T

31-32-<-B->-T-<-B->-T

41-42-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T-<-B->-T

63-64

( <=top left / >=top right / T=vertical between Tops / B=vertical between Bottoms)

lienshan

an addition:

There is in fact one more found exavacated the same place, a gill fungus like a pottery pat too,
a complete one of 10.5 centimeters long with the facet of the pat facing upward. On the handle
were inscribed two lines of six numbers:

<I<I<I (hexagram 63)
I<I<I< (hexagram 64)

Maybe important: both too contain the direction showing number 6

[lienshan]

Can anyone give me a little background on why we use the sequence we do
The traditional sequence of hexagram pairs is in two chapters of 15 and 17 pairs.

4 of the pairs (1/2, 27/28, 29/30 and 61/62) are made of 8 hexagrams that look alike
seen from both top and bottom. The other 56 hexagrams look different when reversed,
so only 28 "two-way" hexagrams are needed to display these 56 hexagrams.

The first chapter is made of 1/2, 27/28, 29/30 + 12 "two-ways" = 18 hexagrams
The second chapter is made of 61/62 + 16 "two-ways" = 18 hexagrams

I'm at the moment studying the traditional sequence in details and use an online blog
to write down my thoughts in english ... you are welcome to follow the development:

http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comments.php4?blogID=591&postID=5813

[fkegan]

The commentary in Wilhelm referring to the sequence is said to have been developed as a memory aid for students trying to memorize the hexagram names in order. Their teachers found that narrative useful for their rote memorization (I vaguely remember it may rhyme in Mandarin).

From the few hints in the Wilhelm about the Yi being arranged in sets of 10, I twigged that those sets of ten relate to the Pythagorean Tetraktys which is a philosophical insight offering total analysis of any subject matter through ten detailed perspectives. Eventually I taught myself all about that Pythagorean system by its connection to explaining the King Wen sequence.

Explaining it to us modern folks requires making a connection in terms of shared tangible examples. The first 10 hexagrams of the Yi describe the Water cycle--the concrete reality of how the overall living process of our life on Planet Earth is controlled by the energy of sunshine interacting with the topography of surface of the Earth to develop everything else we experience.

Hexagram One is the Monad or complete explanation of the set of 10 in a single simple unit. That in itself is a major new insight. Six Yang lines together can't really say much. The traditional Chinese name is Ch'ien and its ideogram is a drawing of rays of sunshine burning off swampy mist to form clouds to water the fields. That water also runs off the local topography into streams and rivers flowing to the sea. That is the entire water cycle in a nutshell or single name.

You may have trouble finding my work on the King Wen sequence as my name is Frank R. Kegan :bows: (not "Keegan" :eek: that spelling a fine Anglo-Irish name, but not mine).:rolleyes:
The hyper link to my work on the King Wen Sequence exactly as an expression of the tetraktys is: www.stars-n-dice.com/tetraktys.html . The whole site is about related insights with the total overview being the Stars and Dice Perspective button from the Home Page.

Lots of folks have noticed that the sequence is divided into two halves after hexagram 30; and set up as 32 pairs with each even number the opposite line values of the preceding odd numbered hexagram. This is the basic structural pattern like the rhyme pattern in a sonnet. The genius of the King Wen Sequence is that it is able to also fit its highly sophisticated philosophy into that overall matrix.

The first set of 10 is the complete explanation of the water cycle from the 4 philosophical perspectives of the Monad or one hexagram, the Dyad or polar opposites in two hexagrams, the Triad or narrative process of three hexagrams, and finally the Tetrad of the double dichotomy or perpendicular axes.

You can see this expressed just in the traditional nature images of the trigrams. There is no use of the trigram li or Fire since there is no fire in the Water Cycle.

It starts with all sunshine. This is the Monad.

The Dyad is hexagram 2 and 3, First the negative polar extreme or the Planet Earth topography, how the surface of the earth is carved to different depths to create mountains, plains, rivers and oceans which determine the workings of the water cycle.
Hexagram 3 is water over thunder or the positive pole, the energy of thunder is the active agent to cause spring rains to fall upon the fields and streams to start the active process of the water cycle.

The rest are:
The Triad 4,5,6--water seeping out of the base of the mountain, water over sunshine as water vapor not yet rain to fall upon the topography, water under sunshine--rain falling through the sunshine or below the sunshine so it lands on earth and not turned into virga and re-absorbed by the atmosphere.

And the Tetrad of 7,8,9.10 or water absorbed into the earth--to--water flowing along the topography of the earth and winds over sunshine yielding the weather systems that control the movement and intensity of clouds and rain---to the lake under sunshine or the final resting state of the water cycle which has flowed down to sea level and now sits under the suns rays waiting to evaporate and start the water cycle all over again.

The only other major sequence of the hexagrams is the ancient predecessor to the King Wen sequence which uses the hexagram line patterns as a binary counter from 0 to 64 or in a circle to mark out with those numbers a sine wave pattern--which is also the T'ai Chi or yin-yang pattern. That was the ancient Yi that used the simple binary math and sine wave trigonometry still used in Western computers and modern physics with the sad results of our current global crises.

There are also teaching sequences, such as the trigram houses where the task of memorizing 64 line patterns is broken down into 8 sets of trigram combinations--taking one trigram as fixed in each set and combining it to the eight other trigrams. Also the set of developmental patterns, the four hexagrams with the various possible lines in the 3rd and 4th place, then the 16 nuclears with each of those four having their four possible pairs in the 2nd and 5th place and then the full 64 organized in sets by those nuclear hexagrams.

You can establish your own sequence based upon whatever overall pattern feels most interesting or important to you. It is not the sequence that is so hard to imagine, it is coming up with an overall philosophical or personal matrix worthy of the task.

Good Luck,

Dr. Frank R. Kegan

[sergio]

[QUOTE=lienshan;65544]The traditional sequence of hexagram pairs is in two chapters of 15 and 17 pairs.

4 of the pairs (1/2, 27/28, 29/30 and 61/62) are made of 8 hexagrams that look alike
seen from both top and bottom. The other 56 hexagrams look different when reversed,
so only 28 "two-way" hexagrams are needed to display these 56 hexagrams.

HI Lienshan
maybe this link would interest and/or help you.Ithink is in your line of work:
http://iching.egoplex.com/king-wen-new-symmetry.html
SERGIO

[fkegan]

I remember my big sister years ago commenting upon the new use of computer analysis in the English lit field. Clearly doggerel poetry ( to those who read entire poems and compared them with other entire poems) were found by the computer to have amazingly sophisticated patterns of inconsistency in their meter and rhyme. That was back in the prior century, early in the process of computer use in academia. My sister's comment was that perhaps it made more sense to use such analysis on poetry by authors who were known to have consciously and intentionally have made their special tweaks to their poetry.

The traditional authors of prior millennia, including the one just passed had a fascination with complex rhyme schemes or other matrix rules such as the sets of pairs in the Ken Wen, not from any belief that alone was sufficient for anything; but rather as the blank page or sonnet pattern within which they were composing their magnum opus.

The philosophical question is what is the meaning of any particular hexagram which then is carried though in the rationale for the sequence of the hexagrams used to organize and display the set of those meanings. The rationale for a sequence comes from the meaning expected from the entire set--then individual hexagrams are aligned to follow that rubric.

If a hexagram is seen as a 6-place binary counter then the sequence is determined by the binary number line--or put into a circle the sequence counts out the T'ai Chi or sine wave pattern of the mathematical contemplation of natural events.

The question then becomes, are the King Wen hexagrams in pairs by line pattern from the meaning of the Sequence or just as flourish of poetic simplicity to show the ultimate mastery of the design? Most of the analysis based upon the trigram composition or number value of the sequence assume the Yi is organized still as a mathematical counter where the line values and not the hexagram meaning is most important.

However, consider the change from the binary counter view of the earlier sequence to be a development of philosophical meaning, not just a new mathematical number line. The overall rationale for the entire Sequence should be clearly demonstrated in the set of hexagrams in order, not requiring advanced computational analysis to reveal it.

Legge early in British I Ching interest, understood the ordering of the hexagrams was occult, which satisfied his curiosity on the subject. :brickwall:

Those for whom that conclusion is a beginning not an emphatic end point, then must look at the rules of occult meaning. The fundamental Law is that of the macrocosm/microcosm: As Above, So Below. Therefore, the symbol system must reflect the relationships and timing as established in natural systems such as the rising and setting of the Sun, stars, and planets (astrology), and the water cycle (tied to seasons determined by the Planet Earth orbit and inclination of the Globe from the vertical).

Traditional symbolic mapping is carried out through geometry and number theory generally integrated into cyclic patterns with sequence points. When the King Wen Sequence is arranged in a circle, with the core 60 hexagrams making up 360 lines (first and last pair put outside on perpendicular axes as Heaven and Earth and Rising and Setting) a functional correspondence is established with the astrological Zodiac and demonstrated in the correlation of individual line judgments with Sabian Symbols.

This shows the rationale of the Sequence is to be found, in terms intelligible to Westerners, in the philosophical symbolism of Pythagoras rather than the mathematics developed from algebra and computer analysis.

That Pythagorean symbolism is based in the Tetraktys, which defines total analysis in terms of 4 perspectives, the Monad or total unity or everything seen within one symbolic circle; the Dyad or a perspective of a single pair of polar opposites; the Triad or narrative of process with a beginning situation, a middle state, and a final result; and the Tetrad or the perspective of double dichotomy or analysis in terms of perpendicular axes.

I found that the I Ching hexagrams in the King Wen Sequence is the best detailed example of a complete Tetraktys analysis that remains available in general publication. Therefore looking at the sequence in terms of the Tetraktys is the best if not the only way to get beyond the surviving text fragments about it that refer to it only by the equation 1+2+3+4 =10 or conclusions that the Pythagoreans swore by it and thought it was the greatest thing until sliced bread.

This Tetraktys rationale of the ordering of the hexagrams does require accepting that the Chinese development is something none of us have learned anything about in our academic training and requires looking at the question with fresh eyes.

As the continuing climate crisis slowly forces it to dawn upon us we need new insights. Even in the cloisters of Academia, in the system set up in the 13th century to mimic their beliefs and their acceptance of the authority of Plato's Academy in their "academic " curriculum the light begins to dawn if only in the realization that the anomalies as you try to keep using those 700 year old dogmas are really proving those paradigms are not useful or interesting any more.

So, Sergio--Good News, the King Wen Sequence is mathematically perfect (Pythagorean math) and its rationale is clear, it just is terra incognito for those of us born in the prior millennium though it will be well learned by whoever survives these opening decades of this one. :)

Frank

[lienshan]

Hi Sergio

Thanks for the link, but the King Wen order isn't a matter of mathemetics. As a diviner I think practically:

Only 18 flat sticks/slips with a hexagram written on both sides were needed to show all the 64 hexagrams:

The hexagram order of side one: 1-2-4-6-7-10-12-13-16-18-20-22-23-26-27-28-29-30

1-2 establish the position of Heaven and Earth
4-6-7 (3-5-8) connect Water with Mountain (Thunder), Heaven and Earth
10-12-13 (9-11-12) connect Heaven with Lake (Wind), Earth and Fire
16-20-23 (15-19-22) connect Earth with Thunder, Wind (Lake) and Mountain
18-22-26 (17-21-25) connect Mountain (Thunder) with Wind (Lake), Fire and Heaven
27-28 above show Mountain and Lake circulating their material force
27-28 below show Thunder and Wind arousing each other
29-30 show Water and Fire refusing to destroy each other

01 !!! !!! Heaven
02 ::: ::: Earth
03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: */Water
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: */Water
08 :!: ::: 07 ::: :!: */Water (upside down)
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! Heaven/*
11 ::: !!! 12 !!! ::: Heaven/*
14 !:! !!! 13 !!! !:! Heaven/* (upside down)
15 ::: !:: 16 ::! ::: */Earth
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: Mountain/*
19 ::: :!! 20 !!: ::: */Earth
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! Mountain/*
24 ::: ::! 23 !:: ::: */Earth (upside down)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! Mountain/*
27 !:: ::! Mountain/Thunder
28 :!! !!: Lake/Wind
29 :!: :!: Water
30 !:! !:! Fire

The shown above inner structure of the King Wen order of the first 30 hexagrams looks logic to me
and explains the use of an upside down hexagram in the earliest known example of the King Wen order:

I Ching hexagram sequence 7-8-9-10 with no 7 upside down has been found on an
3000 years old pottery-pat exavacated in 2002 (on another pat is inscribed 63-64)
Upside down hexagrams are known from the late-Shang-dynasty Sipanmo scapula with
the three hexagrams 12-34-64 of which the no 34 in the middle is inscribed upside down.
Another upside down example is hexagram no 60 on an early Chou bronzeware now in
the Ku-kung collection in Taiwan described by the I Ching expert Chang Cheng-lang.

lienshan (working on the side two of the 18 sticks/slips)

PS. The broken "yin" lines were originally symbolized by both the number six /\ and eight )( signs
and that's a problem to the theory of Dr. Frank R. Kegan, because there is no emty space in a /\

[fkegan]

the King Wen order isn't a matter of mathematics.

PS. The broken "yin" lines were originally symbolized by both the number six /\ and eight )( signs
and that's a problem to the theory of Dr. Frank R. Kegan, because there is no emty space in a /\

It isn't that Yin symbolized by even numbers like 6 or 8 have an open space in their numeral in any language--it is that the hexagram matrix is an open framework, in which an oracle forms in the open space between the broken lines in the overall symbolic matrix. It is an alternative perspective which rejects the notion of independent Yin lines at all. Or the notion that ancient tombs or Chinese ideograms hold the final word on anything in the I Ching. [ cf. www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html ]

I would suggest that any and every perspective can find its place in the King Wen Sequence--that is a standard feature of all such systems. The problems finding mathematical or computer analysis answers in the Sequence is an expression of the lack of real world basis to those mathematical and computer techniques.

However, it is not the numerals in ancient Chinese that are essential, as you say the order is not a matter of mathematics. I would suggest it is a matter of philosophy in general and the Tetraktys in particular which transcend all these details.


Frank

[dobro]

The King Wen sequence? Somebody just made it up. Maybe his name was Wen. There's no logic to it. If there was a pattern, a million people would have seen it by now. But it's not like that. Somebody just played mind association football with it and standardized the order, which we now foolishly call a 'sequence'. Of course, this is just opinion.

Carry on.

[lienshan]

However, it is not the numerals in ancient Chinese that are essential, as you say the order is not a matter of mathematics. I would suggest it is a matter of philosophy in general ...

I agreed with Dobro until a year ago, when Sparhawk and Harmen posted new information and pictures of hexagrams with lines of numerals on this forum. Now I'm sure, that the structure of the King Wen order is logic ... and as you explain "a matter of philosophy in general".

E.G. The second 4-6-7 (3-5-8) part of the sequence, where trigram Water is connected with Mountain/Thunder, Heaven and Earth. Water, Mountain and Thunder have in common, that they only have one whole line. The third 10-12-13 (9-11-14) part of the sequence connect trigram Heaven with Lake/Wind, Earth and Fire. Lake, Wind and Fire have in common, that they have two whole lines.

This look logic to me as an visual explanation of how the trigrams alternate with each other, but in another way than the two wellknown trigram orders! This third and oldest trigram order is shown in the 43-45-47-49 (44-46-48-50) part of the sequence, where trigram Lake/Wind is connected with Heaven, Earth, Water, Fire ... while Water and Fire shift places in the 33-35-37-39 (34-36-38-40) part of the sequence ... and in front of both sequences is a combination of either Mountain/Lake or Thunder/Wind

31 :!! !:: Lake/Mountain
33 !!! !:: Heaven/*
35 !:! ::: */Earth
37 !!: !:! */Fire
39 :!: !:: Water/*
41 !:: :!! Mountain/Lake
43 :!! !!! Lake/Heaven
45 :!! ::: Lake/Earth
47 :!! :!: Lake/Water
49 :!! !:! Lake/Fire

32 ::! !!: Thunder/Wind
34 ::! !!! */Heaven
36 ::: !:! Earth/*
38 !:! :!! Fire/*
40 ::! :!: */Water
42 !!: ::! Wind/Thunder
44 !!! !!: Heaven/Wind
46 ::: !!: Earth/Wind
48 :!: !!: Water/Wind
50 !:! !!: Fire/Wind

The second part of the King Wen order is otherwise structured than the first; like Shuo Kua:

Heaven and Earth establish positions
Mountain and Lake circulate their material force
Thunder and Wind give rise to each other
Water and Fire refuse to destroy each other

lienshan

[lindsay]

Why isn't anyone talking about the Mawangdui sequence, which has impeccable archaeological credentials predating all this heady speculation about King Wen? There is no proof I know of that the King Wen sequence was the original one, the one intended by the framers of the Yi.

I'm not sure about Dobro's point, although I have long suspected it to be true. If you are going to standardize 64 things of any sort, sooner or later you are going to place them in a more or less standardized sequence. No doubt you will come up with some reason for doing this in a specific way. (Not many things are done for no reason at all, even in Washington.) This is especially true of oral material that is to be memorized, not written - and I would bet the farm that many early practitioners of the Yi did not read or write. Even the ones who did may not have been able to afford or own manuscripts of the Yi, which - like all hand-written manuscripts by highly trained scribes - were very costly to produce. The fact that various sequences differ may have little meaning beyond tradition. Can you tell me why the books of the Jewish Torah are in a different sequence than the Christian O.T.?

Lindsay

[hilary]

There's no logic to it. If there was a pattern, a million people would have seen it by now.
And if there are a million patterns... ;)

I know no reason to suppose this is the original sequence, either. Since it's strongly trigram-centred, in a way that the text isn't, I shouldn't think it is. (Though then again - it's possible the oracle could have evolved and been used with no fixed sequence at all for a long time.) But the question of what's original isn't half as interesting to me as the question of what makes sense and works well. As a picture of where you're coming from/ how you're getting here, the 'King Wen' sequence is superb.

[sparhawk]

Why isn't anyone talking about the Mawangdui sequence, which has impeccable archaeological credentials predating all this heady speculation about King Wen? There is no proof I know of that the King Wen sequence was the original one, the one intended by the framers of the Yi.


Because, everybody loves a mystery? Homo Sapiens are enticed by puzzles. As opposed to the King Wen, the Mawangdui sequence has a clear and orderly logic. The King Wen sequence is our very own "Voynich Manuscript" (http://www.voynich.nu/)... :D

[lienshan]

Why isn't anyone talking about the Mawangdui sequence, which has impeccable archaeological credentials predating all this heady speculation about King Wen? There is no proof I know of that the King Wen sequence was the original one, the one intended by the framers of the Yi.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/attachment.php?attachmentid=399&d=1184489318

The above pottery-pat with the hexagrams 10-9-8-7 + an arrow predate the Mawangdui sequence with
more than 700 years ...

It was exavacated in 2002 and "the experts" still haven't noticed, that the no 7 is inscribed upside down! Maybe this is just that piece of the puzzle needed to explain the King Wen order?

I think that the structure of 4-6-7 and 10-12-13 parts of the Wen sequence described earlier reminds me
more of the Mawangdui sequence than of the two wellknown later and earlier Heaven trigram sequences?

lienshan

[dobro]

There's no logic to it. If there was a pattern, a million people would have seen it by now.

And if there are a million patterns... ;)

...then there's no one pattern at all. :flirt:

But the question of what's original isn't half as interesting to me as the question of what makes sense and works well.

I agree with you completely.

As a picture of where you're coming from/ how you're getting here, the 'King Wen' sequence is superb.

Gee, it's never struck me as much more than a handy mnemonic. It's my belief that if it were organized differently, you could just as easily see the 'natural' flow and unfolding of supposed sequence from one hex to the next. There are things that make tons of sense in the present sequence, like putting Hex 3 right near the beginning and Hex 64 right at the end. But you know, it would have made just as much sense to put Hex 2 smack dab in the middle of the whole thing, saying that the polar flow between Hex 1 and 2 is what's driving the whole system. And we could talk about this forever, and I think that is because the present sequence is not resonating particularly with any pattern of sequentiality that exists in the universe. There. Grump.

[dobro]

Why isn't anyone talking about the Mawangdui sequence, which has impeccable archaeological credentials predating all this heady speculation about King Wen?

Cuz it's so flakey? :rofl:

The Mawangdui is excellent evidence that the ancient Chinese took LSD. :D

Actually I think it's a kinda uneducated transcription of an oral tradition. It's gets dozens of terms wrong, and they're all terms that sound like or look like the real originals. It comes across as a sloppy copy. What I value in it though is when it DOES correspond to the modern version, cuz I think that suggests the modern version is true to the ancient version. (Sigh. Not that the ancient version is necessarily the best version, but it would be nice to know what the first one (if there ever was a 'first' one) really looked like.)

[fkegan]

Lindsay--what gives archaeological evidence any credence about an ancient Chinese work. Isn't the notion of digging up ancestral tombs, removing artifacts to be carried away and put on display rather more grave robbing than truth seeking in traditional Chinese values?

That the hexagram patterns were once ordered as a binary counter marking out a sine wave pattern and this was abandoned when the King Wen sequence (and its associated thinking) became available suggest that the academic assumptions tied to our modern beliefs still in that older mathematics and thinking may not be proving out so well. The climate crisis bringing such terrible floods to the U.S. heartland now are another indicator of the need to let go of the old ways of thinking from the prior millennium.

As to the order of Books of the various Judeo-Christian Bibles, they were decided by committees in the centuries around the beginning of the prior millennium. The Jewish rabbis somewhat earlier than the Christian Popes since Europe wasn't feeling like taking on major tasks until after 1001 CE when they started the "modern" with their focus upon the Crusades. You can read up on the history and details of early medieval Bible scholarship yourself. It is clearly known and reported in the literature.

In general-- it sounds like the argument of the group of blind folks trying to explain an elephant. Each one has hold a one part, and thinks that explains the entire animal. The point of that story is that none of them has the ability to see the whole picture or the willingness to reach out beyond their initial point of contact, or to listen to what the others might be adding to the general understanding.

Each of us comes from our own background and prior training which delightfully are all different. However, wondering why others don't follow in your own background is like wondering why there are other people in this world. The more interesting question is why we don't find the other perspectives insightful.

I have problems with attention to text details from my experience with the difference between translation and meaning. Translation details smacks of the Wharf hypothesis with the belief that words control understanding. However, my experience is that the mind stores not words but meaning in brain synapse patterns that may well be more like Yi hexagrams which produce meaning from binary line patterns without language--if you find the hexagram meaning, not just in the commentary, but in the actual hexagrams themselves.

I have problems with genetic arguments from historical artifacts (which came first to produce specific tangible objects) since that put meaning into objects rather than understanding. That became important in academic circles when the Black Death of the 14th century eliminated many of the literate but left totally intact the books in the libraries and other artifacts. However, a superstitious awe for objects which survived an epidemic hardly seems to be of much intellectual value any more.

The more general question is whether the Yi is purely Chinese or a Chinese innovation of general principles. From my experience with Gia-Fu Feng, I believe that which is purely Chinese is unknowable to anyone not native Chinese from at least the first Empire. Therefore, a discussion in English must be about the general principles and insights to be gleaned from those of us picking up the gleanings of prior Chinese harvest.

If an ordered sequence is not obvious to those looking at it, does that mean it is random? Or more to the point is anything random or just unknown to folks who insist all true knowledge was revealed to them and any else is randomness or evil.

The nature of randomness was my first insight in college that led me from a chemistry concentration to the view that rigorous empirical investigation required Buddhist and Taoist perspectives, the Western sciences were 13th century misunderstandings of the world outside their cloister and mistranslation of Aristotle's elegant teachings in rhetoric as objective sciences.

Anything that strikes one as random, simply has an order unknown as yet--since humans are incapable of randomness. So asking someone to state two natural numbers 1-64 results in an oracle of the Yi that describes that person's interaction with you at point.

Most folks come to the study of the Yi from their personal experience of the oracle not by textual analysis of various manuscripts and ancient tomb artifacts. There is something quite special available from just the hexagrams themselves in their oracle interpretation. That interpretation gains in depth and profundity when the King Wen Sequence is put within the grid of the Pythagorean Tetraktys.

The only connection in terms of tangible artifacts is that the 4 constituent perspectives of the Tetraktys can be seen in the T'ai Chi symbol. The difference between the Tetraktys as a triangle of 10 dots and the inscribed swirls and eyes of the famous yin/yang symbol clearly indicates that any attempt to relate them in terms of words or texts or artifacts cannot even get started. Yet it works very well.

Looking to the history of Pythagoreanism in the West, it has endured and continued although no texts or practitioners have had any formal recognition or tangible objects to find since before Athens defeated the Persian invasion. Clearly that demonstrates there are other mechanisms of transmission and development involved.

Perhaps it would help if others took the time to post what their perspective is based upon and why they feel it is of importance more generally then their own personal devotion.

Frank

[martin]

I remember that I wrote something about this in another thread, and thanks to the forum search :) I found it again:

"Whatever the Chinese, Confucians or not, wrote about the hexagrams and lines, it's only their interpretation and their (necessarily imperfect) wording of the meaning of the hexagrams and lines.
So it's okay to try to discover what they actually wrote, but it's not holy bible, isn't it?

The word, the name, Chinese or English, is not the thing, the hexagram or the line.
If you want to know what the 'thing' really means, well, you can only discover that through experience with it.
Analyzing the Chinese text, although it might be fun, is not going to help beyond a certain point."


I should add that analysis of the structure of the trigrams and hexagrams can also help. So experience is not the only way.
I'm not (yet) familiar with your work, Frank, but I know the work of Nigel Richmond and I think he did a very good job.
What I especially like about him and his approach is that he uses clear concepts but doesn't get caught in overly rigid system thinking. There is a lot of feeling in his writings, and he remarks somewhere (forgot the exact wording) that the concepts need to be applied with some humor. Great. :)

[lindsay]

Dobro -
I don't think the Mawangdui Yi is just a sloppy and botched copy of some purer original. That sounds like the kind of put-down we use about things we do not want to consider.

Frank -
I'm sorry but I can't follow your argument, if you have an argument. The only thing I understand clearly is that you do not like me. Too bad.

Martin -
I can't agree with what you are saying either. It didn't make any sense the first time you said it, and it hasn't improved with age.

I would like somebody to explain to me the benefits of this speculation about the King Wen sequence, since you all seem to hold it in such high regard. What is all this business of "making sense" and "working very well"? It doesn't make sense to me, just like Chris Lofting's theories didn't make sense either. It doesn't help me in my readings. I see no evidence of extraordinary cleverness in the ancient Chinese. Help me out here. What exactly are you guys talking about? And please - no nattering about Leibniz and Pythagoras. No half-baked forays into binary arithmetic. No schoolboy history lessons about the Greeks and Romans. I was professionally trained to be a historian, have taught history at the university level, and know b.s. when I hear it.

Lindsay

[sparhawk]

Well, yes, perhaps you are correct, and there is no intrinsic value in finding the key to the King Wen sequence. All the speculation doesn't help me to interpret readings either. OTOH, it is a challenging subject upon which countless Yi students have spent time thinking and debating about. A worthy mystery. Take Richard S. Cook's work, for example. For the little I could understand of it, I could not find any speculation in it about "his" understanding of the sequence and its practical usefulness in actual readings. That for a treatise on the sequence the size of a phone book... :D So, my point is, he worked on it because he wanted to tackle that challenge, from a mathematical point of view, and share his findings. I believe that most people that seriously speculate about the sequence have a similar drive, even if they come up with different results.

[fkegan]

Is the utility of our own Yi oracle interpretations determined by our personal feelings of success with their answers or a mix of our level of understanding about the Yi, its hexagrams and organization with the additional spice of how exquisitely a particular oracle interpretation fits our realization of what we needed.

Lindsay,
I don't dislike you, I simply don't believe the academic assumptions that you do. You have made the choice to only listen to your own expectations, and as Buddha noted, that tends to be a source of suffering. Of my own I have a different set of assumptions, based upon the same academic library sources as you. The only difference is when things seemed not to make sense, I declined to just accept them on faith or loyalty to the professor. Instead, I tracked down the sources and found where the divergence appeared and how it had been ignored--usually to hold on to obsolete paradigms which were still comfortable though filled with devastating anomalies.

I regret that you so totally identify with with your background as to believe it is you. But that is one of the limitations of the academic perspective that it finds only its own library to be anything but evil and keeps its denizens from developing independent adult perspectives of their own.

As to why folks on this thread are focused upon the King Wen Sequence, it starts with this being a Sequence of the Hexagrams thread, and many of us find it polite to accept the premise of a discussion.

If you wish to start a thread about whatever it is that so consumes you, I am sure you would find folks eager to join that conversation as well. Set out your premises, which academic historians you accept, how that strand is modified by your use of the Oracle in contravention of the fundamental Church bias of the academic perspective, I would be glad to try to join that conversation to at least leave a few bread crumbs from where you are in the deep woods toward the sunlight and open fields of the King Wen folks.

Martin--I was delighted by find the books of Nigel Richmond through your mention of him. Looking them over, I came to a somewhat different impression. I notice he published in the '70's and '80's on the I Ching, as I did and that he quotes Gia-Fu Feng on Lao Tzu as I do also. Beyond that I was more struck by the memories of that New Age milieu that pervaded all of our thinking back then. It does explain a lot of what his work was based upon.

Unfortunately, the spirit of those heady years were just a blip of insight into a new Tao for this new millennium (and New Age, literally by the calendar timing). He bases his insights into the Yi upon his personal associations to the graphical line patterns with Yin being active yet receptive since it is a broken line. That is certainly a step up from the earlier Western assumption that the broken and firm lines must be Freudian symbols since they also have a masculine and feminine association.

Moving on to your own words,
the I Ching is one of the Confucian Classics, that is very much the Bible of the Confucians and his interpretations were to be memorized in traditional China to pass the exams to be considered for employment in the Imperial bureaucracy (like U.S. Civil Service exams).

"If you want to know what the 'thing' really means, well, you can only discover that through experience with it." Actually, the logical import of your remark is more clearly phrased as YOUR experience with something brings you to an understanding of what it means to YOU.

I have actually experienced folks using different methods of casting the oracle from me for the same situations. The coin tosses were interpreted differently for which side of the coin was yang, and which line was determined first. The resultant oracles were totally different in that transformation. However, they were each insightful in our individual terms for each of us.

The point of studying the name and sequence of the traditional hexagrams is that they explain and extend one's understanding of what a particular oracle response means in your exact situation. In my own work I have also developed new names for the hexagrams and put the King Wen Sequence into the framework of meaning by sets of 10. Of course, none of that would be your personal experience with the oracle, but at some point it may be useful to consider other things to improve your basis for interpreting your oracles.

Dobro and others,
The mystery of the King Wen Sequence intrigues some of us so, since it seems clear that it is intentional and organized by an intelligence which clearly knows far more than we do. Given involvement with our results with our own Yi oracles, with the clear realization that there are many aspects and details of the ancient commentary which seem rather obscure, it strikes many that the more we knew about how the structure of the hexagrams is connected to the names, and how the names and structures are organized into the King Wen Sequence the better.

In my own case, the Eureka! epiphanies of figuring out pieces of this puzzle were personally amazing with the further working out of it all being ever more exciting and attractive. So, for all the reasons you focus upon your own oracle experience beyond the words or sequence; I find the line patterns and sequence an entire superlative level of interpretation for my own oracles.

One of my early insights was to see the lines of the Yi hexagrams as little x-ray snapshots of a company of repertory actors who enacted the scenario depicted in an oracle. I don't now see hexagrams as animate beings, though they remain as delightfully magic as ever. Now that magic comes to me in the Aha! realization as my technical analysis of the lines and philosophical analysis through the Pythagorean matrix makes so much fit together and stand out.

Frank

[dobro]

Dobro - I don't think the Mawangdui Yi is just a sloppy and botched copy of some purer original. That sounds like the kind of put-down we use about things we do not want to consider.

Boy, are you ever grumpy. lol What I said about the Mawangdui Yi is a putdown, yes, but it's the conclusion I've drawn from looking at it closely and comparing it to the modern version. It's got so many instances of goofiness that 'sloppy copy' is the only conclusion I can make. We can start a new thread about it if you like. But having trashed it, I use it regularly to compare its meanings with the one I trust and follow, cuz like I said, when EVERYTHING agrees on a term, then it's probably gold.

I would like somebody to explain to me the benefits of this speculation about the King Wen sequence, since you all seem to hold it in such high regard.

I don't hold it in high regard, and I said so. You've been hanging out with bad company, Lindsay lol.

What is all this business of "making sense" and "working very well"? It doesn't make sense to me, just like Chris Lofting's theories didn't make sense either.

It doesn't make much sense to me, either, and nobody's ever been able to present a convincing argument about why it *does* make sense. People praise it and people use it, but when you ask for evidence, they come up with stuff that sounds like they've interviewed their own left thumb. (There! Shall we do a grumpy old men routine every time somebody mentions 'sequence'? lol) As for Chris, what do you think was energizing that overactive intellect of his? Too little sex, or too much repression? lol

It doesn't help me in my readings.

Nor me in mine.

I see no evidence of extraordinary cleverness in the ancient Chinese.

Well, not in the matter of the so-called sequence, no. But you have to admit the Yi itself is a cunning piece of work, a rare and useful beautiful thing.

Help me out here.

I just did.

Ingrate. :rofl:

[hilary]

The grumpy old men routine is outstanding, and should be on TV.

Frank, I don't know where you get the idea that Lindsay is lacking in 'independent adult perspectives', unless you're joining in the aforementioned routine.

Whatever the Chinese, Confucians or not, wrote about the hexagrams and lines, it's only their interpretation and their (necessarily imperfect) wording of the meaning of the hexagrams and lines.
That's one way of looking at things: the words are just an interpretation of the hexagrams and lines. Having tried that one on for size, though, let's also try:

"Whatever arrangements of lines the Chinese may have made, it's only their (necessarily imperfect) way of arranging and cataloguing an ancient oracular tradition."

Another way of looking: the hexagrams are just a cataloguing system for the words.

Neither way of looking seems to me to have much mileage in it - either seems to throw out whole families of babies with the bathwater. Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible for any normal human brain to encompass the whole picture of the thing, so we have this distressing tendency of promoting the part we have an affinity with to be 'the true I Ching', and demoting the rest to be an add-on. Oops.

[martin]

Neither way of looking seems to me to have much mileage in it - either seems to throw out whole families of babies with the bathwater. Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible for any normal human brain to encompass the whole picture of the thing, so we have this distressing tendency of promoting the part we have an affinity with to be 'the true I Ching', and demoting the rest to be an add-on. Oops.

Yes, I agree. But I think that neither the text nor the hexagrams are the 'true I Ching'.
In what I wrote earlier I stressed that the I Ching is not the text because I was reacting to a tendency that I sometimes see to treat the text as bible, as the final truth about the I Ching. But I can say exactly the same about the hexagrams. Analyzing the Chinese text is not going to help beyond a certain point but neither is structural analysis of the hexagrams. Richmond apparently realized this and, as I wrote, that's one of the things I like about him and his approach. He doesn't allow himelf to get trapped in a rigid system and that is what may happen if you try to go too far with structural analysis and treat the hexagrams as the final truth about the I Ching.
That's the problem that I always had with the work of Chris Lofting. There are good ideas in it but he tries to catch the whole of the I Ching in the cage of his system and that spoils the whole thing. Richmond also uses a kind of cage but he leaves the door open, the bird is free to go if it wants, it isn't imprisoned. It's a bit like what the king does in line 5 of hexagram 8?

[sparhawk]

Yes, I agree. But I think that neither the text nor the hexagrams are the 'true I Ching'.

I'm telling you people, nowadays we have so much cattle around in the world, emitting so much methane, for what? Only to provide us with milk and beef? Hmmm, all those bones going to waste... We should go back to scapulimancy!!! :D

Of course, we should ban the use of any Brit cows. Those are just "mad cows"... :rofl:

[martin]

I'm telling you people, nowadays we have so much cattle around in the world, emitting so much methane, for what? Only to provide us with milk and beef? Hmmm, all those bones going to waste... We should go back to scapulimancy!!! :D

Of course, we should ban the use of any Brit cows. Those are just "mad cows"... :rofl:

Huh? What has that to do with what I wrote?
Ah, you are still after my cow Bella! You don't give up easily do you?
Forget it, she is not available, not for your barbecue and not for your scapulimancy, neither is her friend Harry! :D

[sparhawk]

Well, you did say that "neither the text nor the hexagrams are the 'true I Ching'"... I thought we could step back in time a little further to find some common roots. Forgot your coffee this morning?? Wanna fight?! Come on! I'll take you and your cow (and Harry too)... :D

[martin]

I had way too much coffee this morning. I hardly sleep at night these days because I'm working on mathematical stuff and it seems that I'm onto something new :stir:. So I'm too excited to sleep. :cool:

But seriously now for 1 moment, lol, the common root would be, umm, not cattle but experience (with the Yi and life), feeling, intuition? Analysis (textual or structural) is useful, necessary sometimes, interesting and fun, but it's not everything. That's all I'm saying.
Now, don't fight, simply nod, because I'm right, isn't it? :D

[sparhawk]

But seriously now for 1 moment, lol, the common root would be, umm, not cattle but experience (with the Yi and life), feeling, intuition? Analysis (textual or structural) is useful, necessary sometimes, interesting and fun, but it's not everything. That's all I'm saying.
Now, don't fight, simply nod, because I'm right, isn't it? :D

Ok, how can I not agree with that? Not fair! Where is the fun in agreeing with anybody? :D Well, if you are right, you are right.

So, you finally tackled the Goldbach Conjecture? Or is it the Collatz Problem? Or the King Wen sequence? :D

[martin]

Lol, the Wen sequence, that would be nice. :D
I sometimes wondered if it is perhaps one of the 'most complex' or 'most random' sequences possible (apart from the pairs, so only look at the odd numbered hexes, for instance). Hmm, no, I'm not going to explain now what I mean, exactly. :)

But there is something about the Yi, not only that sequence, that can drive people who are looking for patterns and hard and fast rules nuts. And I think those ancient guys did that on purpose. "Try to catch me, no you can't :mischief:"
The Yi is a koan, sort of.

[fkegan]

Martin,
Yes, the King Wen Sequence is intriguing in that it implies it has total complexity--it is complex poetry. How does something get to be more random, let alone most random, other than having a precise order that you just don't know.

Hillary,
Having turned 60 a while back, I think joining the grumpy old man thing is the best offer I have had for what my mother would have asked me," ...and what do you plan to accomplish in your 7th decade."

Dobro--and anyone else who finds nothing insightful in the KWS in light of personal experience with the Oracle, let's try the challenge you seem to imply.... take an oracle, perhaps one involving this thread, conversation or community so that we could each and all have personal experience of what the oracle is talking about. You interpret it your way ignoring the sequence, and I will comment from only the Sequence number, and moving line position and we shall see how useful the structural approach is in actual Oracle use.
Frank

[dobro]

Dobro--and anyone else who finds nothing insightful in the KWS in light of personal experience with the Oracle, let's try the challenge you seem to imply.... take an oracle, perhaps one involving this thread, conversation or community so that we could each and all have personal experience of what the oracle is talking about. You interpret it your way ignoring the sequence, and I will comment from only the Sequence number, and moving line position and we shall see how useful the structural approach is in actual Oracle use.

I'm happy to play, but my understanding of people who believe the King Wen sequence has meaning will, invariably, find meaning in it. But, to cut to the chase...

"What do I need to know about the upcoming meditation retreat?"

60.2.3>63

Okay, the retreat's going to be about a week, and it involves a fairly rigid (but not onerous) structure of meditation, exercise and possibly some singing in the evenings. It's a silent retreat (except for the singing, obviously lol).

So, I see the structure of the retreat imaged in Hex 60, and I see that structure involving or leading to everything being in its proper place. Good. But on a more micro level, I see two issues I'm going to have to deal with - although there's a silence rule, and although it's a retreat, I should probably stay in touch with my wife by phone (cuz she doesn't like being left all on her onesie) (60.2), and yet somehow I have to balance that with the very real need for discipline and structure in the retreat (60.3). I'm not sure if these two changing lines indicate two separate mini-aspects of the retreat, or whether they both refer to the same thing, overlapping.

[martin]

60? Okay, let everything that occupies you go first (59) and if you do that you will find your innermost heart (61)

(that seems an easy point for you Frank, hope you don't mind I kicked the ball in :rofl:)

[dobro]

Yes, and that's exactly what I saw too, WHEN I LOOKED AT 59 AS PRECEDING, AND 61 AS FOLLOWING 60.

But let's say we had a different sequence. Let's say that 47 preceded 60 and let's say that 48 followed it. What do we get? 'By way of hard confinement, you develop the disciplined regularity that will take you into the depths of your being."

Or let's say that 8 preceded 60. "By uniting with the principle of the retreat, you find the discipline involved in regular meditation practice."

Or let's say that 8 FOLLOWED 60. "By embodying the regularity of the retreat schedule, you will unite with both the retreatants and yourself - a state of unity will be the outcome."

See, I think that I can find meaning in this situation with about half the hexagrams being either the preceding or subsequent hexagram.

50 - 60 - 40

"Your being has transformed to the extent that real discipline is now the issue, and this will take you eventually to liberation."

Yeah, right...

[martin]

Yeah right, damned!
As our great cow-loving master Luis said: "Ok, how can I not agree with that? Not fair! Where is the fun in agreeing with anybody? :D Well, if you are right, you are right."

Grmp! :rofl:

[dobro]

Well, maybe I don't get the basic meaning of sequence. In the King Wen version of sequence, is it supposed to be temporal, or is it a semantic sequence? Is the sequence supposed to happen in time, or is it supposed to happen in the mind? Cuz if it's supposed to happen in time (ie 'first comes the Creative; then out of that situation arised the Receptive; then out of that arises Difficulty at the Beginning') then what are we to make of relating hexagrams? If I draw 1.2.5>30, does that mean that 'out of 1.2.5 arises 30'? Okay, if that's the case, then what about Hex 2? Wasn't *that* supposed to arise out of Hex 1? And if Hex 30 arises out of Hex 1, does that mean that the situation is somehow inferior to the 'normal sequence' of 1>2? I mean, the beauty of relating hexagrams is that ANY hexagram can arise out of ANY hexagram. So how does the King Wen sequence fit into that view?

[lindsay]

I am feeling contrite. Hilary, Dobro, Luis, Martin, and Frank have all made good points and wise observations. I wish I had time to comment on them all, but they speak for themselves. It’s true I personally have become encased in the text like a beetle in amber. The text is what I know and what I study, so naturally that is what I think is most important – but it is also true that the text is what I think is most important, so that is what I’ve come to know best.

I am well aware the text has limitations. Some readings are difficult to understand on the basis of the text alone. Usually I assume this is my fault, that I am missing something crucial to the reading because I do not understand the text properly or do not have the skill to extract the full meaning. Another common problem is text readings sometimes seem rather thin. A significant question is asked, but the responding texts are occasionally terse and unsuggestive.

Now – about Frank’s challenge to Dobro. This is a brave gesture, and one I admire very much. Can I suggest an example too? I would like to propose considering a recent reading I had a lot of trouble explaining on the basis of the text alone – just to see where a non-textual interpretation would go. This is not a trick or made-up case – it actually happened, and is not so very unusual. Just difficult on the basis of the text, I think.

A friend of mine was celebrating her 48th birthday, and asked “How can I achieve happiness and contentment in the year ahead?” Coins were tossed, and the result was 59.5.6 > 7.

I spent a fair amount of time on this response, reading the books and considering the possibilities, but I still failed to grasp the meaning. Anything anyone does with this reading will be as good as what I did, and probably better.

My version: “You will need to work hard and assert yourself openly to get what you want, but in the end your life will not change much. After so much effort and struggle with little result, you may wish to change course in a completely new direction. As long as you act responsibly according to plan, you should be able to make things work to your advantage. None of this is likely to have any lasting adverse impact on your life.”

What I don’t like about this reading is (1) it’s pretty negative, (2) it doesn’t really answer the question, and (3) it relies on obscure text. The central part of 59.5 has no consensus translation, and the phrase “dispersing one’s blood” does not exactly pop everything into sharp focus.

So Frank, would you please be willing to consider this case? I promise I will strain every neuron to keep an open mind, and I’m sure others would like to see a practical application of your ideas. Perhaps my failure will be your success. I hope so!

[hilary]

I never normally have the courage to do quick interpretations - I prefer to read everything and check obsessively. But - first reaction - did you consider reading off the hexagram names as a sentence?

'How can I achieve happiness and contentment in the year ahead?'
'Disperse your Army.'

(Might that imply that 'contentment' and 'achieve' sit oddly in the same sentence together?)

Then we have suggestions of (maybe!) making a great effort to redistribute one's wealth or status, and getting out of trouble.

How do you build up to dispersing? Dobro could no doubt find 63 equally convincing ways to do it, but I've found open communication to be useful. It loosens the boundaries and broadens the focus. And it might also help in self-awareness generally to know that one's army-mindset comes from conflict. Righteous indignation, or just a sense that something is not as it should be or you're not getting what you need, does tend to concentrate the mind around that centre of discontent.

If 'dispersing the army' pulls about the primary/relating hexagram connection too much for your taste, try 'disperse things with the force and concentration of the army' or 'make a serious campaign of dispersing things.' (Unless that sounds as bizarre to you as it does to me...)

I also think the text's what's most important - but I add to that a habit (picked up at Oxford ;) ) of never assuming that something doesn't contain meaning.

But seriously now for 1 moment, lol, the common root would be, umm, not cattle but experience (with the Yi and life), feeling, intuition? Analysis (textual or structural) is useful, necessary sometimes, interesting and fun, but it's not everything. That's all I'm saying.
Now, don't fight, simply nod, because I'm right, isn't it? :D
:bows:

[lienshan]

The only "logical" problem in the King Wen sequence is the position of the 53 - 54 pair

51 ::! ::! 52 !:: !::
55 ::! !:! 56 !:! !::
57 !!: !!: 58 :!! :!!
59 !!: :!: 60 :!: :!!

53 !!: !:: 54 ::! :!!

[meng]

A friend of mine was celebrating her 48th birthday, and asked “How can I achieve happiness and contentment in the year ahead?” Coins were tossed, and the result was 59.5.6 > 7.



I'd like to play, using a reversed approach, guessing the personality of your friend based on her reading, to achieve happiness and contentment in the year ahead.

I'm going to guess that this person is tightly wired / stressed out, perhaps obsessively organized and tidy. Further, that she makes others close to her crazy with her perfectionism. I take it she is a leader of some kind?

My reason for the above is that her answer (as I see it) was to let go, not only for her sake but for those around her: her army.

[fkegan]

I take my daughter to her college class and the thread buzzes in my absence, I took a bit of time with Dobro's oracle, but I will do both just on the fly (having had gremlins abscond with my earlier work...

Dobro--week long silent retreat--
Oracle 60 2.3. 63.
60 Lining == This final hexagram of the set of Divine intervention in human life completes the final part of the double dichotomy with the expression of the establishment of infrastructure by the interaction of fluid elements with concrete situations.
Here Divine intervention comes to peaceful completion in simple situation

The entire set of 10 of which 60 is the completion begins with 51 as Monad...
51Swooping==The first hexagram of the 6th set of 10. Here is the pure energy of the Divine manifest in human life as the massive intervention from the Heavens. This is awe and majesty in its pure form and naked invocation.==Tetraktys Monad

From Monad to final, 10th hexagram in a decad the energy of the set is finally in its settled and quiescent state.
It moves from oracle hexagram to resultant, or the possible future with current momenta unaltered to hexagram 63...

63 Morning After == Only Yang places with Yang lines, 1,3,5 process of completion with everything in its place leaving only consideration of what has been completed exhausting its current energy==

There is no Monad to this final set, only 4 hexagrams based upon their overall line patterns.

The moving lines are 2 Yang >>> Yin --Structure (or legs one stands upon) expressing and exhausting themselves.
And 3 Yin to Yang--Passions moving from the background and becoming focus.

Reacting to your comments Dobro, I would suggest perhaps you will want to call your wife for your own issues of in re:"I should probably stay in touch with my wife by phone (cuz she doesn't like being left all on her onesie) with a successful week long silent retreat.

On to Martin,[Lindsay actually]--
“How can I achieve happiness and contentment in the year ahead?”

59.5.6 > 7.
Hexagram 59 Solution == This 9th hexagram of the set of Divine intervention in human life begins the final part of the double dichotomy with expression of the total fluid energy of both wind and running water. Here the emphasis is not on motion/stability, rather the forces taking apart stable infrastructure.
The Divine intervention that eliminates the structures humans develop and return situations to the Flux of events. ==

59 again is part of the decad with the Monad 51 (see above) but at the opposite polar axis from 60 (also above with Dobro's oracle). Rather than the quiescent final state when all 10 points from hexagram 51 are complete, this is the 9th--that is almost complete with that final completing dot being a driving vacuumn to fill(to put the cherry on top or the topmost ornament upon the Christmas tree, or finish that 10th dot to complete the Triangle of the Tetraktys). It is the intense energy to come to completion of one's experience of the Divine directly in one's life.

The moving lines are the 5th and 6th, the overall organization and the transition to the next. These are both Yang lines expressing and exhausting themselves. As they sink back into background, having their culmination achieved the oracle hexagram becomes hexagram 7 of the first set of 10--the concrete water cycle whose Monad is hexagram One, the Creative or Sunshine. Thus, like the Tarot card of the Tower, showing both a King and commoner falling from the high tower, they each and both become simply falling bodies, absolutely equal in their gravitational acceleration and final result when they reach the surface of the Earth.

For completeness' sake, here is the database listing for hexagram 7:

7Corps==First set, the water cycle. 7th place is the first of the initial pair of the Tetrad. Rain absorbed into the ground to form the mystery of energy and homeland. This is position without any movement though it is the preparation for all further development. The rain has fallen upon fertile land and been absorbed to make the fields the location where the mystery of life will take seeds and rain to produce the crop. None of this can be seen outside, it must be taken on faith, yet it is an objective reality and in due time it will move on to the next steps and all the rest of the cycle emerges from this inner mystery.

Overall, this is the situation where real action begins. All the preparation is over, the rain has fallen upon the fields and here begins the use of that rain to grow the crops and to feed the great rivers. Everything here is about organization and its results, although final accounting is still off in the future.==Tetraktys Tetrad

That seems at least moderately suitable as an oracle interpretation, and uses only the sequence numbers and hexagram line positions.

I hope at least this demonstrates the method to my madness in concrete terms.

When I first discovered the oracle casting techniques of asking someone "to tell me 2 natural numbers, 1 to 64, either the same number twice or two different numbers" and applied it at a family gathering of my friend in Belgium which included the current King's Counsel, I found that although stating two numbers was totally polite social inquiry, the structural analysis of the hexagram responses turned out to expose an intimacy which was not.

Any questions about how these interpretations could be applied to your actual questions or situations, I would be glad to try to answer too.

Frank

[sparhawk]

When I first discovered the oracle casting techniques of asking someone "to tell me 2 natural numbers, 1 to 64, either the same number twice or two different numbers" and applied it at a family gathering of my friend in Belgium which included the current King's Counsel, I found that although stating two numbers was totally polite social inquiry, the structural analysis of the hexagram responses turned out to expose an intimacy which was not.

Any questions about how these interpretations could be applied to your actual questions or situations, I would be glad to try to answer too.

Frank

I imagine that technique works fine for people unfamiliar with the Yi, no? Have you found it to be useful among your Yi student peers? Honestly curious, by the way.

[fkegan]

Oh, no. Their knowledge of what are "good" and "ill" oracles interferes with the process. The requirement is that one has to allow one's mind to select numbers from its own inner workings. You could be expert in the line patterns and still use your mind to come forward with Arabic- Hindu numbers, but generally, even a mild familiarity with the hexagrams causes choppy waves in the process.

At its best, this technique invites folks to watch their mind process images. In workshops folks would describe what they experienced inside--e.g. first I chose these two numbers and then these other two pushed the first pair out of the way. So I interpreted both pairs, and she noted the first pair were who she would like to be and the second who she was. Or a chemistry prof, at that same party in Belgium who gave two small squares, saying that was all involved in his pick, but I noted that their were smaller squares in the set of natural numbers, and the pair he chose described his inner issues quite exactly.

One of the difficulties of the technique, with folks I didn't know but knew each other very well, was an image I chose simply in my ignorance of the people,from the oracle itself, struck my friend as so totally apt for one of the women in the group that he was unable to stop laughing about it, even though it was clearly impolite.

For those who can not "be random" about their number picks from 1-64 they have to use whatever method they generally use to cast the oracle, or in party situations, ask someone there not so hip to the hexagrams to tell them 2 numbers. In the latter case, the I Ching caster's oracle will include the other person's input as well--but that could be an interesting party game.
Frank

[martin]

I use numbers already for a long time, but I pick a big number, then divide it by 64 and the remainder is the hexagram number. I sometimes have used a digital watch too (the seconds, if it was possible to stop the watch) A few hexagrams missing (60-64) but you get a zero extra for 'no answer' or 'void'. When I was near the Himalayas in Nepal my watch very often said '52!'. Yeah, I would think, but what do you mean? That I should stop and sit still? Or that you like those mountains? Or both? :)

[fkegan]

I use numbers already for a long time, but I pick a big number, then divide it by 64 and the remainder is the hexagram number. I sometimes have used a digital watch too (the seconds, if it was possible to stop the watch) A few hexagrams missing (60-64) but you get a zero extra for 'no answer' or 'void'. When I was near the Himalayas in Nepal my watch very often said '52!'. Yeah, I would think, but what do you mean? That I should stop and sit still? Or that you like those mountains? Or both? :)

Back in the day, when the Apple //e was state of the art, I used one of its functions to get a number from 0-254 or so determined by when exactly you pressed the next key, and then calculated a number function that delivered an answer 1-64. However, those are objective ways to determine a random number 1-64. They are just another way of calculating the 2's and 3's of the Oracle casting.

If you can get your mind to envision a pair of natural numbers, then you can watch the subjective process of casting an Oracle. Getting somewhere you can watch your mind work as it will is a major empirical experiment. The objective world isn't all that accessible until you have some clarity about your subjective perceptual apparatus in your mind that is filtering everything you perceive. If you were pondering an oracle question, noticing a number between 1-64 is another subjective number casting technique. Your mind is what is noticing that number at that time.

If it were my watch and I were in Nepal near the Himalayas, it would be telling me, "You are near the Himalayas, very special mountain range---do you see them? want to check them out? Let's do something cool with them!

Lindsay-- I called you Martin, and I didn't know it. I think by the time I got to your post, there was Martin's already up, and I thought the name at the bottom of my screen was the same as above...my apologies, but the structural analysis of the oracle remains the same.
Now, as I look more closely at the two posts, it seems they must be by very different folks. I was wondering why you were asking about your watch numbers.
Any comment on my structural analysis of your Yi Oracle? Does the concept make any more sense to you now? And you Dobro?

The sequence is not so much about the pairs or the next hexagrams
but an entire system of sets of 10, that arise from the One, the Two, and the Three, with the next step being the 10,000 things in China and the horoscope wheel upon perpendicular bisectors in Pythagorean metaphysics.

Frank

[dobro]

Does the concept make any more sense to you now? And you Dobro?

The sequence is not so much about the pairs or the next hexagrams
but an entire system of sets of 10, that arise from the One, the Two, and the Three, with the next step being the 10,000 things in China and the horoscope wheel upon perpendicular bisectors in Pythagorean metaphysics.

Ah, you used YOUR sequence. (I thought you were going to shed some light on the King Wen sequence.) Okay, yeah - I see the idea behind your sequence more clearly now. But for me there are two parts to how I understand the Yi - the understanding of the meanings and mechanics of it, and the results I can get with it. So, I got one meaning from how I was reading it (I didn't bring any 'sequence' meanings into it), and you got a slightly different take - you brought my own motivations into the picture, and that was useful for me. (I'd been seeing the situation as me meeting my wife's needs, but of course that was incomplete, and less than the full truth, so your insight was useful.) [By the way, this morning, I'm reading the changing lines in my consultation a bit differently. I've decided that they represent a conflict of interests in me: one part of me wants to stay in touch with my wife during the retreat, both because that's what I want and also because she wants it ('Not emerging gate, courtyard: unfortunate') and another part of me wants to honor the rules of the retreat ('Not measure-like, consequently lamenting-like') because breaking silence will compromise the value of the exercise. However, because there's 'no fault' associated with this, it's perhaps okay to proceed with it (another reason for thinking it's okay is because 63 is the relating hex - everything falls into place, despite the inner conflict).]

So, to conclude, if you saw the bit that was useful to me (the bit about my own motivation in all of this) as a result of your own understanding of the decad of divine intervention applied to the last of the series with those particular changing lines, then yes, your approach is fruitful.

[dobro]

Can anybody point me to a logical sequence of hexagrams based purely on line structure? For instance, let's say we subscribe to the idea that yang lines enter (and disappear) from the bottom. In that case, Hex 2 would be followed by Hex 24; Hex 24 would be followed by Hex 7; Hex 7 would be followed by either Hex 19 or Hex 46 - that sort of thing. I seem to remember a long time ago somebody here saying they'd seen a sequence like this, and that it made perfect logical sense. Anybody?

[sparhawk]

The Fuxi binary sequence that Shao Yong re-discovered?? Again, Steve Marshall has a nice page about the sequences, here. (http://www.biroco.com/yijing/sequence.htm)

[dobro]

Hey, thanks Luis. This is to satisfy my own curiosity about what different people have come up with. Cuz basically, I think the problem's insoluble. One of the biggest difficulties is that although the hexagram pairs make sense semantically, they don't make sense in terms of their line structure. Hex 1 and Hex 2 are opposites (every line changes into its opposite) but Hex 19 and Hex 20, for instance, are inverts (the hexagram is just turned upside down... duh).

It's interesting to pair them in terms of opposites, rather than the present arrangment. (I know, I know - you can add 'pairing libertine' to my description...See, I'd be willing to pair opposites if I saw an ontological or semantic relationship between them.) So, we keep Hex 1 paired with Hex 2, and Hex 11 paired with Hex 12, and Hex 27 paired with Hex 28.

But Hex 24 is now paired with Hex 44 - interesting, yes? 24 talks about contacting friends and everything being relaxed and gracious, whereas 44 talks about contact that's problematic and to be kept at a discrete distance. In opposite pairing, 19 pairs with 33, and you can see how the meanings are opposite/complementary. In opposite pairing, 35 pairs with 5 (both are gracious, light-filled situations, but 35 moves ahead while 5 waits). 20 pairs with 34, and their opposite/complementary natures are immediately apparent. Other opposite pairings that seem to work along these lines: 15 and 10, 16 and 9, and there are more.

These new, opposite pairs often have 'opposite' meanings, but the system doesn't always work so neatly. For example, 25 and 46. Do you see a connection there? 25 and 46 don't seem opposite to me, they seem to be moving in similar directions. And what about 41 and 31? (foregoing the girl; taking the girl?) And what about 42 and 32? (Adding more; continuing as before, more of the same? That seems to be a similar direction, not opposite.) And 38 and 39 would be paired, and it seems they're resonating more than being opposite.

Sigh. And so, in the end, the only thing I can conclude is that trying to systematize the Yi is a waste of time. I'd like to know if the people who put it together arranged it that way intentionally in order to keep it alive, knowing that a systematic approach always sucks the life out of any system. What's strange in all this is that I see the universe as orderly, as unfolding out of Principle at the source, and Archetypal Principles arising out of source. Why shouldn't an oracle that reflected that order work really well? I think it's an important question.

[crystal_blue]

For instance, let's say we subscribe to the idea that yang lines enter (and disappear) from the bottom. In that case, Hex 2 would be followed by Hex 24; Hex 24 would be followed by Hex 7; Hex 7 would be followed by either Hex 19 or Hex 46 - that sort of thing.

I don't follow; why would Hex #46 follow Hex #7?

[sparhawk]

I don't follow; why would Hex #46 follow Hex #7?

Actually, 19 is the right answer for a binary sequence...

[dobro]

I don't follow; why would Hex #46 follow Hex #7?

Well, if yang lines enter and disappear from the bottom up, then which hexagram follows 7? You can either add a yang to position one, which produces 19, or you can add it to position three, which gives you 46. I'm playing with this, trying to understand if there *is* a logical sequence in terms of hexagram structure.

[crystal_blue]

Actually, 19 is the right answer for a binary sequence...

Or #4, if the placement system corresponds from top-to-bottom, as it were; any Hex with two Yang lines could technically follow #19 and still preserve a binary sequence (it would just be highly non-intuitive).

[crystal_blue]

Well, if yang lines enter and disappear from the bottom up, then which hexagram follows 7? You can either add a yang to position one, which produces 19, or you can add it to position three, which gives you 46.

Why can one add a Yang to position 3 - you mean Yang builds upwards from any existing Yang (and there is an implicit Yang beneath the Hexagram)?

[dobro]

Why can one add a Yang to position 3 - you mean Yang builds upwards from any existing Yang (and there is an implicit Yang beneath the Hexagram)?

Well, that's the bit I don't understand. Okay, back to square one.

Let's start with Hex 2. It seems natural that this would be followed with 24, right? What comes after 24? Well, you add another yang at position two, and that gives us 19. But what comes after 19? Do you add another yang at position three, which gives us 11? Or does the Hex 19 position one yang disappear, giving us Hex 7? I think it's 7, because I think you should deal with all the lower possibilities before moving on to higher positions. So what comes after 7? You tell me. We can't go back to 19. So it seems natural to move on to the next position - position three - and add a yang. Hex 46. No?

I'm not trying to convince you, by the way. I have no idea where this is going lol.

[sparhawk]

Or #4, if the placement system corresponds from top-to-bottom, as it were; any Hex with two Yang lines could technically follow #19 and still preserve a binary sequence (it would just be highly non-intuitive).

Nope, binary sequences are very precise (bottom line is rightmost number):

000000 (2 in the KWS)
000001 (24 in the KWS)
000010 (7 in the KWS)
000011 (19 in the KWS)
000100 (etc...)
000101
000110
000111
etc...

[crystal_blue]

Let's start with Hex 2. It seems natural that this would be followed with 24, right?

By any Hex with one Yang line, to me. But I digress...
- ;)

What comes after 24? Well, you add another yang at position two, and that gives us 19. But what comes after 19? Do you add another yang at position three, which gives us 11? Or does the Hex 19 position one yang disappear, giving us Hex 7? I think it's 7, because I think you should deal with all the lower possibilities before moving on to higher positions. So if the sequence goes 19>7, what comes after 7? 19 or 46? Do you add the new yang to the first position or the third? What's the criterion for adding/subtracting lines? If you follow the principle of dealing with lower positions first, then the answer to this one is 19 (cuz position one is lower than position three, so you change that one first).

Okay, so what happens after 19?

Do you mean to go to #19 twice (#19 -> #07 -> #19)? I'd say it goes #07 -> #46, because once you've reached #07 you've exhausted all combinations of the two first positions (#02 -> #24 -> #19 -> #07), therefore attention moves to the third position.

[crystal_blue]

Nope, binary sequences are very precise (bottom line is rightmost number)...

The point is the bottom line is the rightmost member only by convention - a sequence is still technically binary if the bottom line is the leftmost member, or the second from rightmost member, and so forth.

[dobro]

But so that we're all on the same page with this, let's say that the bottom position is on the right.

If that's the case, then the sequence Luis posted works. It's logical.

[martin]

Can anybody point me to a logical sequence of hexagrams based purely on line structure? For instance, let's say we subscribe to the idea that yang lines enter (and disappear) from the bottom. In that case, Hex 2 would be followed by Hex 24; Hex 24 would be followed by Hex 7; Hex 7 would be followed by either Hex 19 or Hex 46 - that sort of thing. I seem to remember a long time ago somebody here saying they'd seen a sequence like this, and that it made perfect logical sense. Anybody?

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago and posted it on this forum. To get a 'next' hexagram delete line 1 and add a whole or broken line on top. So every hexagram has two successors. The successors of hex 7, for instance, are hex 24 and hex 27 (what you are doing is the reverse, that may make sense too btw).
Hexagram 1 and 2 are special, because 1 is a successor of 1 and 2 a successor of 2. These hexagrams can chose not to change, so to speak. Somehow that seems to reflect their transcendent or (potentially) absolute nature.

The idea is based on what happens to trigrams (including the inner trigrams, line 2,3,4 and line 3,4,5) in hexagrams if you assume that there is an upward flow or transformation in hexagrams. To get the next trigram (upward) you delete the bottom line and add a whole or broken line on top.
I discussed this with Chris Lofting back then and somewhat to my surprise (because the idea is not so easy to reconcile with his approach) he liked it. :)

I don't know if anyone in the (distant) past did something similar, but it's not improbable. Whatever you think, somebody, somewhere, probably already thought it. :)

[crystal_blue]

But so that we're all on the same page with this, let's say that the bottom position is on the right.

If that's the case, then the sequence Luis posted works. It's logical.

Fair enough.
- :D

[sparhawk]

The point is the bottom line is the rightmost member only by convention - a sequence is still technically binary if the bottom line is the leftmost member, or the second from rightmost member, and so forth.

Let me try again... Lets separate the set of "binary" numbers from hexagrams. In a binary representation of numbers, you read them as any other number, i.e. the rightmost digit is the smallest quantity (as in the decimal system, in the number 234, 4 is the units, 3 is the tens and 2 is the hundreds). In the binary system you read them likewise but, the rightmost digit is read as the indicator of "odd" and "even" numbers. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system#Counting_in_binary)

[crystal_blue]

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago and posted it on this forum. To get a 'next' hexagram delete line 1 and add a whole or broken line on top. So every hexagram has two successors.

I had a similar idea, but the other way around (delete line 6, add Yang/Yin to the bottom) - the idea being, line 6 is the 'oldest', line 1 'newest'. It also matches descriptions that in #24/#44 that Yang/Yin has 'entered from below' and that in #23 the 'strong Yang line is about to be overwhelmed'.

[crystal_blue]

Let me try again... Lets separate the set of "binary" numbers from hexagrams. In a binary representation of numbers, you read them as any other number, i.e. the rightmost digit is the smallest quantity...

Not all numbers (and hence, not 'any other number') denote the smallest quantity as the rightmost digit. However, as above, I'm willing to agree with you for the purpose of this discussion.
- :)

[dobro]

I discussed this with Chris Lofting back then and somewhat to my surprise (because the idea is not so easy to reconcile with his approach) he liked it. :)

Well, that makes it immediately suspect. :D

I suppose somebody's already thought of that.

I understand your idea of sequence. It's a way to generate a sequence, for sure. But it doesn't seem entirely organic to me (I like organic :)) because it doesn't work with existing line positions, but instead destroys and creates line positions. I prefer the idea of keep the existing positions intact, but changing the yangs and yins in those positions. Just my bias, I guess.

But I'm going to start a new thread to pursue the idea that's even more important to me than this vexatious one of sequence.

[sparhawk]

Not all numbers (and hence, not 'any other number') denote the smallest quantity as the rightmost digit. However, as above, I'm willing to agree with you for the purpose of this discussion.
- :)

Should I have been more specific and say "natural numbers", which is what I had in mind?? :D Are we splitting hairs here?? You want to have the last word? Are you my wife in disguise, saying you live in the UK when you are only a couple of miles from my office?? :rofl:

[dobro]

Crystal Blue is your wife in disguise, Luis. Live with it. You have my sympathies. :rofl:

[lienshan]

I had a similar idea, but the other way around (delete line 6, add Yang/Yin to the bottom)
The sequence below is inspired by the Shuo Kua quote: "The number three was assigned to Heaven,
the number two to Earth, and from these came the other numbers." Read the sceme the chinese way.
I've used ancient chinese numbers < (6) to symbolize broken lines and + (7) to symbolize whole lines.

<<<<<+ <<<+<+ <<<<++ <<<+++
+++++< +++<+< ++++<< +++<<<
+<<<<+ +<<+<+ +<<<++ +<<+++
<++++< <++<+< <+++<< <++<<<
<+<<<+ <+<+<+ <+<<++ <+<+++
+<+++< +<+<+< +<++<< +<+<<<
++<<<+ ++<+<+ ++<<++ ++<+++
<<+++< <<+<+< <<++<< <<+<<<
<<+<<+ <<++<+ <<+<++ <<++++
++<++< ++<<+< ++<+<< ++<<<< etc.
+<+<<+ +<++<+ +<+<++ +<++++ (7)
<+<++< <+<<+< <+<+<< <+<<<< (6)
<++<<+ <+++<+ <++<++ <+++++ (5)
+<<++< +<<<+< +<<+<< +<<<<< (4)
+++<<+ ++++<+ +++<++ ++++++ (3)
<<<++< <<<<+< <<<+<< <<<<<< (2)

(50-65) (34-49) (18-33) (2-17)

The trigrams below (to the right) show horisontal from left to right the Fu Shi trigram order:
<<+ Thunder +<+ Fire <++ Lake +++ Heaven ++< Wind <+< Water +<< Mountain <<< Earth

The order shows vertical upwards from right to left the hexagrams in binumerical order from 2 to 65
<<<<<< Earth (2) ++++++ Heaven (3) etc. to <<<<<+ (65)

Each hexagram of six numbers (either </6/even or +/7/odd) is counted this way:

6th = 0 or 2 / 5th = 0 or 4 / 4th = 0 or 8 / 3th = 0 or 16 / 2th = 0 or 32 / 1th: < even = 2 and + odd = 3

The last five numbers have value 0 if equal (even or odd) to the 1th number. Some examples:
<<<<<< (0-0-0-0-0-2=2) ++++++ (0-0-0-0-0-3=3) <+<+