Travelling through the gate: resources for after the reading

[hilary]

Thinks...

Readings tend to bring new ways of seeing and open gates. And sometimes this is everything we need - just to be shown a way we hadn't seen. Sometimes, though, it seems to me we need help to get past admiring the gate and start walking through it.

For instance...

the reading (hexagram 40, for instance) reveals a need to stop 'should'-ing on ourselves - OK, so how to change a lifelong pattern of thought?
the reading reveals that the relationship problem has nothing to do with willingness and everything to do with understanding - so where to learn how to listen? or understand the opposite sex? :confused:
the reading points out that you need to get organised/ deal with your debt/ straighten out your true priorities before diving into the next project. Where do you start on any of these?
hexagram 52 - the importance of inner stillness and becoming less reactive, perhaps starting a meditation practice - OK, how do I do that?and so on...

I'm hoping we can pool our experience here and build up a rich collection of resources we could recommend as a way of following through on a reading.

Links, articles, free downloads, tools, techniques, books, support organisations, individuals' services...

To start the ball rolling in a tiny way:


Anyone who knows they should be getting organised to align what they do all day with their true priorities: www.simpleology.com (free online tools and training)
...?

[gene]

Hilary, and everyone

As fr as the gate is concerned, there are a multitude of ways to look at a gate. In one way, it takes us into an inner world. In another way,it takes us to an outer world. Either way, there is something new in our experience that has never been there before. And something that will stay with us and change us completely.

In all the60 years I have studied the I Ching, I have very rarely gotten hexagram 60, but yesterday I did. Line two says, "Not going out of the gate and the courtyard brings misfortune." There are an infinite number of ways of interpreting this, depending on what level one wants to correspond with the I Ching. However, it can mean in some instances that one must get out of their own little inner world, and interact more with people, and bring their thoughts to the table. This is something that is ongoing, and is something the person continues to do from the time of the reading, and then on.

Another way to read this is that one must let go of the self imposed bonds one has set on oneself. Sometimes we unconsciously restrict ourselves, possibly out of fear, possibly out of conditioning received in early childhood, whatever. But receiving this note, "going out of the door and gateyard" can give us a new understanding of ourselves, our world, and our place within it.

Sometimes going through the gate can lead us to another dimension, so to speak, of life. Sometimes we need to take the plunge, and start that new job or career, but it can also be time to see things from a whole new perspective. These interpretations can indeed be life changing, and continue beyond the reading.

In fact, this is the higher use of the I Ching, is to understand how and where and when to change our life, to see from a greater distance, a higher prespective, and with a new format, within a new framework.

Gene

[sparhawk]

In all the 60 years I have studied the I Ching, I have very rarely gotten hexagram 60, but yesterday I did. Line two says, "Not going out of the gate and the courtyard brings misfortune." There are an infinite number of ways of interpreting this, depending on what level one wants to correspond with the I Ching. However, it can mean in some instances that one must get out of their own little inner world, and interact more with people, and bring their thoughts to the table. This is something that is ongoing, and is something the person continues to do from the time of the reading, and then on.

Gene

Gene, just how old are you? I thought Brad was the senior citizen here... :D I started dabbling with the Yi when I was about 13 and now I am 46. If you started about that age, you should be about 73 now. Is that correct? I remember seeing a picture of you and you didn't look to be around 70. If you are, wow! I need your recipe for youthfulness... :bows: (don't tell me to give up women because I rather die young... :rofl:)

[hilary]

So with all this seniority and wisdom and such like in the air, surely someone must be able to recommend...

some good reading matter about relationships
a way for beginners to start meditation
somewhere to learn good communication skills...just for instance?

[sparhawk]

So with all this seniority and wisdom and such like in the air, surely someone must be able to recommend...

some good reading matter about relationships

Can't claim wisdom, sorry... On the other hand, you must be kidding. I think 60% of Self-help shelves in bookstores deal with this subject. The other 40% must be about dieting and addictions... I've never read any of those and can't recommend any... Hmmm, perhaps I should... :D

a way for beginners to start meditation

Find a guru! No, wait, that's too 60's and 70's :rofl:

somewhere to learn good communication skills...

just for instance?

Clarity?? :D

[listener]

In the spirit of sharing, I could list some things I have found helpful. NOt sure how I would relate them to I ching readings......it can be so personal what a reading is saying to each individual.

I am sure these sites are not new to many of you

www.emofree.com (http://www.emofree.com) 39 - tap thru your emotional blocks:duh:
www.thework.com (http://www.thework.com) ( byron Katie end-suffering tecniques)I asked Yi about this work and it said 21. It works if you stay with it.
http://www.hypno-freedom.com
www.spiritualcinemacircle.com (http://www.spiritualcinemacircle.com) food for the soul ...27?
www.changingcourse.com (http://www.changingcourse.com) ( for those with the desire to be "jobless' but successful and innovative and entreprenial) hexgram one?

If anyone has not seen The Secret Behind the Secret with jerry and esther HIcks, this is a beautiful DVD!! Highly recommend it as it is a beautiful story of how they evolved into the current life work, and they are so charming as people. 22. celebrate :hug: just the sound track alone is exquisite. and if you are a nay-sayer about the create your own realty theme , this may just change your mind.

Loved the book Eat, Pray and Love by elzabeth gilbert ( on life and love and meditation, travel)
Reading a great book called Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art:stir:

The War of Art by Stephen Pressfield (a great book about our collectively mutual enemy : resistance) 40 - get free.. read this if you get a lot of 3.6

and if you get hexaram 18 a lot, and also have trouble with being needy/hurt in relationships, my very favorite author Clarissa Pinkola Estes, the jungian spanish storyteller par excellence offers the Cd set
"Warming the Stone Child: myths and Stories about Abandonment."

[listener]

Clarity?? :D

this is no lie!! I have learned so much about internet etiquette and communication mishaps from Clarity. OMG, we could write a book.

[gene]

Sparhawk

So sorry, I meant I haven't received hexagram 60. I haven't studied for sixty years. I am 60, almost 61, and that picture was taken, I believe, when I was 55. I do look younger than my age, except for my silver gray hair, and I chalk it up to practicing Tai Chi Chuan and qi gong to a certain extent. Don't know what else.

I have studied the I Ching, on and off, for maybe 30 or 35 years.

Gene

[hilary]

Listener, you are my hero! Thank you! That's exactly the kind of help I need...

You're right about how personal it is. What tends to happen is that the querent and I share a strong sense of a message from a reading - but getting the message is one thing, absorbing and digesting and just having some idea what to do about it is quite another. (Maybe what I'm talking about is fixing omens.) And if, at that moment, I can suddenly think of a book/article/technique/... that's a perfect match, I can be a whole lot more helpful.

Going to do some more reading now...

[gene]

There are all kinds of books out there about dating and relationships, most not worth the paper they are written on, um, well, I take that back, many of them have value, but not as much as you might think. Then again, who am I to talk? I don't give on hot **** about relationships, at least not at my age, but if I had to give advice to men, it would be this. Don't try to be nice, it doesn't work. In fact, don't try anything at all. If you try to impress, you don't. If you don't, you do.

And if I had to give women advice, it would be this. Be nice. I guess that's all I can say. Anything that works for a woman, won't work worth a wooden nickel for a man, and vice versa. We are as different as night and day, and that's the truth. A book that says that? I don't know. But check out what David DeAngelo has to say for men. I'm sure you can find him on a search engine. Even the woman are saying what he says works. But for women? Just be nice. I don't know any good books.

Gene

[hilary]

Actually, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus is pretty good on the 'different as night and day' subject. It's simple, true, maybe over-simplified at times, but it contains a core of truth that lots of people are completely unaware of. The number of times I hear from women convinced there's something wrong because he's not confiding his emotions in her and accepting the support she offers... or that he doesn't care because he never just listens... (Congratulations, you just proved he's not a woman!)

It's a long time since I read Gray's book, but I seem to remember that it was better on getting the basic idea across than on credible advice for interplanetary communication. There's space for a few more recommendations there...

[trojan]

I think most women should read 'Hes just not that into you' by greg Behrendt and Liz Tuccilo as women are always buying into the belief theres very good reasons why he doesn't call/write/ever see them/ever talk to them apart from the fact hes actually 'just not that into them.' Its written in a humourous way but has alot of truth and i have known it be very helpful for women who are trying to break up or have just broken up

Trouble is the title of the book sounds a bit insulting if you're recommending it to someone else

[topal]

Here's a few:

Unholy Hungers: Encountering the Vampire in Ourselves and Others (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unholy-Hungers-Encountering-Vampire-Ourselves/dp/1570621810/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201354369&sr=1-1) By Barbara E. Hort

Emotional Vampires: Dealing With People Who Drain You Dry: Dealing with People Who Drain You Dry (http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Emotional+Vampires%3A+Dealing+With+People +Who+Drain+You+Dry%3A+Dealing+with+People+Who+Drai n+You+Dry&Go.x=13&Go.y=12&Go=Go) By Albert J. Bernstein

The Sociopath Next Door (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828/ref=pd_rhf_f_i_cs_4) by Martha Stout (part of amazon synopsis: "A shocking four per cent of ordinary people have an undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. They can do literally anything at all and feel absolutely no guilt. One of their chief characteristics is a charisma that makes them more charming or interesting to others - and hence tricky to identify. Sociopaths learn early on to sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others' suffering, they live to dominate and thrill to win. And statistically, every reader will know at least one, if not more.")

In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/096516960X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201354414&sr=1-1) By George K. Simon

The Narcissistic Family Diagnosis and Treatment (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Narcissistic-Family-Diagnosis-Treatment/dp/0787908703/ref=pd_sim_b?ie=UTF8&qid=1201354479&sr=1-2) by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman, Robert M. Pressman

Trapped in the Mirror: Adult Children of Narcissists in Their Struggle for Self (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trapped-Mirror-Children-Narcissists-Struggle/dp/0688094716/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201354479&sr=1-2) by Claire Golomb

Some may think that this is too specialist or has no relevance to their lives - ooooh how wrong you might be! Definitely required reading.

Topal

[gene]

Hi Hilary

Yes, I think the "Men are from Mars" series is very good. One of these days I'll actually sit down and read one, (all the way through, that is). To not take a look at the differences is a mistake. If men approached women when they are interested, in the workplace for example, exactly the way women approach men when they are interested, they would be charged with sexual harrassment time and again. But that's a different subject, well, sort of a different subject.

By the way, what works before a relationship is truly formed is not exactly what works once it has been formed. The rules change. And in response to trojan, what he says here I think has some merit. Women tend to have certain rules about the way relationships should go, or how he should act. The problem is, women never tell men what those rules are. They make them up, and just expect him to follow them, rules that a man doesn't even know exists. But then again, if he did just follow the rules, she'd think he's a wimp. ("Real men don't eat quiche." ha ha.) Kind of a catch 22, isn't it? But then again. Don't think men don't put women in a catch 22. We both do it in our own way.

Gene

[hilary]

I'm going to visit my local library and get an access code that allows me to search the catalogue and make reservations online. And then I have some serious reading to do!

It occurs to me that maybe what I should have asked is something like this:
"What do you often want to recommend to the people you do readings for?"

[toganm]

It occurs to me that maybe what I should have asked is something like this:
"What do you often want to recommend to the people you do readings for?"

My recommendation would be to read books from Paulo Coelho, especially "The Alchemist" and "Like the flowing River", if they haven't read. If they read it already, then I would recommend them to reread and find remarks which is similar to their question or to the answer they got from YJ.

Everyone has to be in contact with their Dao (please substitute what ever word you want to change that into) to be their authentic selves. Until one knows his/her purpose in life it would be difficult to say s/he is in alignment with his/her destinity.

Togan

[martin]

I'm going to visit my local library and get an access code that allows me to search the catalogue and make reservations online. And then I have some serious reading to do!


OMG, you are not going to read a lot of psychological stuff, are you?
Don't spoil your purity! :eek:
There is a thousand times more truth in the Tao Te Ching than in any psychology book you can find.
And there is infinitely more truth in your soul, but that is what the Tao Te Ching points at anyway.
So be still .. and you will even understand men! :D

But if you really want to read something psychological, try Carl Jung and Fritz Perls.
They are quite good. :)

[bradford]

I don't know if there has ever been a broader subject opened up here.
Are you asking for books and links to help grok and apply the Yi's advice?
Doesn't that cover the whole of life?

[listener]

well yes, sending people off to explore this and that after a Yi reading is a bit like Glynda sending dorothy off to find the great and powerful wizard who MUST know how to get home again, get a heart, find a brain or one's courage......but sometimes the journey is necessary!?

I couldnt help thinking that, at those times when I feel really overloaded with books and websites and more this and more that, I crawl away to sit quietly in front of the fireplace with my coins and a text or two. And the Yi rights me with the world/myself.

still, there's probably a whole lotta Yi clients out there who WANT to know the way to the wizard. who need the exercise.

and judging form this forum, a LOt who need to read "He's Just Not That Into You" :)

also, it's fun to know what everyone's been reading/thinking on :rolleyes:

"Enjoy this secret...we sometimes know. and then not." Rumi

[hilary]

Togan - good one, thanks.
Martin - don't worry, I'm extraordinarily good at forgetting things.
Brad - um, yes, come to think of it.

[sparhawk]

I don't know if there has ever been a broader subject opened up here.
Are you asking for books and links to help grok and apply the Yi's advice?
Doesn't that cover the whole of life?

And beyond the threshold... :D

[gene]

Hilary

I have to agree with Martin on this one. It may not be a good thing to get too deeply into psychology. To a certain extent it will be necessary to do so, but be careful. I suppose that in Great Britain as here there are laws governing who may counsel and who may not. Nevertheless, as Martin says, there is more psychology within the text than you will ever find in school. I know I have preached on this on and off since I have been on here, but we must involve the spiritual realm or we will never get the real problem.

One thing too, I think is very important. The real problem is not whether he/she will stay or go. It is not “How should I deal with him/her? The real problem is inner, and as such the real problem, the real psychology of the inner person is intimated in the text. The real problem is “Why am I attracting these situations?” It is so very important to study the I Ching in terms of spiritual development on a personal level. In coming to understand our own inner psychology, we begin to understand the psychology of the person we are dealing with.

For example, (and I do not have really good examples right now because I am not prepared, but…) a man may ask, “why am I not attracting women into my life?” And he gets the answer, hexagram 32 line 4. The texts says, “No game in the field.” This means much more than just there isn’t anyone available right now. It indicates the psychology of the individual is such that he is unconsciously picking the wrong places to go, the wrong methods to employ, a tendency unconsciously to avoid… The W/B commentary is hexagram 53 line for is that “He/she often brings him/herself into inappropriate situations.” Why is the person doing this? It is not that they just have the bad luck to pick the wrong person. The commentary itself tells us. It says, “In the course of his development…” This tells us there is a karmic situation here, which is necessary to help the person complete their inner development, and the situation will not reverse until that development is complete. To wind up, hexagram 53 line two says, “His initial insecurity has been overcome.” This happens when we find ourselves in situations which we are familiar with. But why inner insecurity in unfamiliar situations? This gets into a study of deeper spirituality, and it is generally not touched upon in depth in traditional psychology. It is simply considered natural. But insecure, at times, we all are. And this is almost always the ultimate reason for the question. Fear is involved. Fear of the loss of love. Fear of rejection. Fear of losing face. And finally what I am saying is that if you study the I Ching for personal development, you will find the I Ching is replete with examples of why and how and when we fear.

Gene

[hollis]

Being a hopeless case, and resigned to sitting outside and admiring the gates for the rest of this life, I have given up on all self help or of anyone 'help' for that matter.

That said, I did just read some books by Dr. Judith Orloff, and it struck me that she seemed quite genuine, and helpful in the matters of developing ones intuition, and soul:

http://www.drjudithorloff.com/



Thinks...

Readings tend to bring new ways of seeing and open gates. And sometimes this is everything we need - just to be shown a way we hadn't seen. Sometimes, though, it seems to me we need help to get past admiring the gate and start walking through it.

I'm hoping we can pool our experience here and build up a rich collection of resources we could recommend as a way of following through on a reading.

Links, articles, free downloads, tools, techniques, books, support organisations, individuals' services...

[soshin]

So be still .. and you will even understand men! :D

But if you really want to read something psychological, try Carl Jung and Fritz Perls.
They are quite good. :)

:bows:

[bradford]

I'm wondering if there isn't something fundamentally wrong with the
very idea of "resources for after the reading."
We see a lot of this: a beginner to the Yi might get a brief introduction
to the Yi's big picture by reading at a decent translation, but then he
suddenly gets distracted and goes rushing off down all the dark alleys
of obscure number symbolism and feng shui applications and Chinese
astrology and whether the Later Heaven arrangement is meaningful,
never again to just sit still and ponder the heart and meaning of the
text of the Yi and let the meanings grow out of that quietness.
The same happens with specific acts of divination -
people go rushing off into all the tangents and distractions instead of
lingering quietly and thoughtfully with the Yi' s response to his question
until some of the nuances begin to clear up. Or worse, they throw the
coins seven more times in rapid succession to "clarify" the previous cast.
Given this, I think I would have to suggest, by way of follow up to a reading,
to look around at other versions, translations and interpretations of the Yi,
to help develop the fullness of this clarity. Instead of being a mile wide and
an inch deep, but fast - stay focused instead, go deep and let the wisdom
ripen. That's hard for this fast paced era, but it's how the Yi works best.

[listener]

thanks Hollis. I like the article "The Power Of Intuition: Dr. Judith Orloff's Personal Journey"

maybe instead of resources "after the reading", there most needs to be a pre-gate primer on intuition and trust. that's the key to the gate. I like the title of mona shulz' book on intuition: "You Already Know What To Do"

[hilary]

I'm wondering if there isn't something fundamentally wrong with the
very idea of "resources for after the reading."
I think where I went wrong is the word 'after'.

Prepare for reading... cast hexagrams... read and study and have extraordinary 'aha!' moment of illumination...
(assuming all that goes perfectly...)
...and then there's a tendency to act as if the reading is finished.

The real business of 'fixing' and living the reading might just be starting. To some extent, deepening and changing the understanding changes the person... but I don't think that's the end of it.

[hollis]

thanks Hollis. I like the article "The Power Of Intuition: Dr. Judith Orloff's Personal Journey"

Hi listener, thanks & glad you liked her article!

[listener]

The real business of 'fixing' and living the reading might just be starting. To some extent, deepening and changing the understanding changes the person... but I don't think that's the end of it.

This is very true.

I used to go to a massage therapist who was really good, and she kinda doubled as a psycho-therapist ( unofficial). She was really into helping the people "tied up in knots" to find ways to release the sources of their stress. The massage would open the gate, both physically and emotionally...but then she would talk with her clients afterward and encourage them to follow through.

A massage can untie the knots and release the pent-up energy and feelings- maybe much a like a good reading can do - but , just like in physical therapy, there usually has to be "homework" based on the new awareness.

This lady had a deal with a book store that sold her books and cd's at 10% above wholesale cost and then she would sell the books from her own shelves in her house at 20% above wholesale, making a small profit and still giving her clients a fair deal. ( Book stores typically sell books at 40% profit.) It was always a good feeling to buy a book there, felt like the right book at the right time kinda thing. and she was never pushy about it, one was free to browse and dream and intuit :)

[doingnotdoing]

Hello All,

In another thread, Topal and I had an exchange about a psychological approach known as Health Realization/Innate Health that is beginning to make some inroads in numerous fields. Although I agree with previous posters that diving into psychology in general can twist people around (there’s over 400 schools of psychology today, which is strong evidence that most are misguided), the concepts and ideas of Sydney Banks that have been developed into the HR/IH approach have had real validity in my life, and I see their approach as dovetailing perfectly with the Yi, as I see the Yi as a tool to help align us with our innate wisdom.

The most significant issue people face in considering these ideas is that it requires a fair dose of humility to ask yourself if you understand how your mind really works.

Because of this, I would strongly suggest that anyone who chooses to explore these ideas conduct a personal reading with the Yi as to how, or even if, you may benefit from the following links before actually exploring them. There are many paths to truth, this is one of them:

Sydney Banks website: http://www.sydneybanks.org/frameset.php?id=hm

Essays (PDF Format) by Judy Sedgeman, HR practitioner at West Virginia Institute of Innate Health:

http://www.hsc.wvu.edu/wviih/resourcesAndPublications/reflectionsEssays.asp

What Banks suggests is fully consistent with another contemporary mystic that many are probably already aware of, Eckhart Tolle. Excerpts from three of his books are available at the following link, while a web search can locate several excellent interviews:

http://www.spiritsite.com/writing/ecktol/index.shtml

The importance of inner stillness and becoming less reactive, the way to changing lifelong thought patterns, and learning how to truly listen are all related, and the answers to these questions are already within us – if we can find the humility to truly listen to what is being said by the individuals above.

What they are suggesting is not new, in any way. On the contrary, they are saying what all of the wise have always said in one form or another, throughout history: Look within.

I’m serious about my earlier suggestion. Please ask guidance from the oracle before exploring these, and be attentive to the answer you receive.

All the best.

[bradford]

While we're on the subject of psychology, it has to be pretty obvious
that the biggest obstacle to hearing what the Yi has to say is our
talent for denial. Given sufficient discomfort with the truth, we
can twist what the Yi says into anything we want to hear. I for one
know the Yi well enough to know that the text itself is NOT all that
ambiguous. It has very clear and specific meanings for me, but
ones that happen to have lots of applications. It's got a vertical
ambiguity, to be sure, answereing different kinds of people on
different levels, and that way has different answers for a fool and
a sage, but it doesn't have the kind of horizontal ambiguity that
simultaneously says "she really digs you" and "she's just not into you."
Those ambiguous answers are purely products of the reader's own
psychological challenges. Given that, I'd suggest anything that
describes how humans can twist tea leaves and chicken entrails
into apparent prophesy, and any serious study of our faculty for
denial and self-deception, like maybe Daniel Goleman's Vital Lies,
Simple Truths: The Psychology of Seff-Deception.

[martin]

What Banks suggests is fully consistent with another contemporary mystic that many are probably already aware of, Eckhart Tolle. Excerpts from three of his books are available at the following link, while a web search can locate several excellent interviews:


Hmm, I don't know. In recent months I have watched videos of Tolle and others who give 'satsang' nowadays (usually what they offer is something like Zen, Advaita or Krishnamurti) and I may be wrong but the impression that I get is that most of these teachers are, how shall I say it, 'not fully cooked'? It seems that they are, as 'mystics', still very young, not really mature.
I have had the good fortune to meet a few more mature mystics in my life and there is a big difference. The difference is not so much in what they say, it's first of all in their being. Hard to define, but it shows.

The thing is, people sometimes discover a new way of being, and that is great, it makes a big difference in their lives. But that doesn't mean that they are ready to teach. The new first needs to mature and that is a process in time, it may take decades. Understanding it, adapting to it, embodying it, that takes time, a lot of time. If teaching starts too early it will not only confuse the pupils but also the teacher.
In the old traditions of the East this was well known. But nowadays, in the West, oh oh. :)

[doingnotdoing]

Hmm, I don't know. In recent months I have watched videos of Tolle and others who give 'satsang' nowadays (usually what they offer is something like Zen, Advaita or Krishnamurti) and I may be wrong but the impression that I get is that most of these teachers are, how shall I say it, 'not fully cooked'? It seems that they are, as 'mystics', still very young, not really mature.
I have had the good fortune to meet a few more mature mystics in my life and there is a big difference. The difference is not so much in what they say, it's first of all in their being. Hard to define, but it shows.

The thing is, people sometimes discover a new way of being, and that is great, it makes a big difference in their lives. But that doesn't mean that they are ready to teach. The new first needs to mature and that is a process in time, it may take decades. Understanding it, adapting to it, embodying it, that takes time, a lot of time. If teaching starts too early it will not only confuse the pupils but also the teacher.
In the old traditions of the East this was well known. But nowadays, in the West, oh oh. :)

It occurred to me after reading Martin’s post that perhaps I erred in not following my own advice, so I asked the following:

“Good Morning. I shared information regarding Syd Banks and Health Realization with the Clarity Community yesterday. I’d like to ask directly of I Ching though, how do you perceive Sydney Banks teachings?”

37.1.2 > 57

To quote Wilhelm:

37 - The Family - The Image:

Wind comes forth from fire:
The image of the family.
Thus the superior man has substance in his words
And duration in his way of life

Line One: “ . . . If we begin too late to enforce order, when the will of the child has already been overindulged, the whims and passions, grown stronger with the years, offer resistance and give cause for remorse.”

Line Two: “In relation to general conditions, the counsel given here is to seek nothing by means of force, but quietly to confine oneself to the duties at hand.”

57 – The Gentle (The Penetrating) – The Image

Winds following one upon the other:
The image of the Gently Penetrating.
Thus the superior man
Spreads his commands abroad
And carries out his undertakings.

As always, we are all free to interpret this however we choose. ;)

As an aside Martin, Banks would suggest that as long as one believes awakening will take decades (or lifetimes), they will be correct. He has said repeatedly that it's always just a thought away, for everyone.

[hilary]

So we've come full circle: resources to help live a reading; readings to help filter the mountains of available resources. In this case I'd suggest that a good question to ask might be something like,
'If I absorb and live this teaching (/book/ method/...), what would it bring me?'
In other words, it's individual :)

[martin]

I didn't mean that awakening needs to take decades. It can happen any moment.
It's the process after awakening, the maturing, that takes time. Yes? :)

[doingnotdoing]

I didn't mean that awakening needs to take decades. It can happen any moment.
It's the process after awakening, the maturing, that takes time. Yes? :)

Well, I must say that's been true in my case. I had a profound awakening over a decade ago, and have found reconciling a transcendent understanding with life on earth to be challenging to say the least. It's like veering from wakefulness to sleep and back again. I just try to be quiet when I sense I'm more towards the sleep aspect.

Not that I always succeed. :)

[hilary]

I brought a great pile of recommended books home from my local library yesterday, and read through He's just not that into you in one sitting. Trojan, I do see exactly what you mean. It's very funny, but ouch...

[meng]

I think Tales of Power and Journey to Ixtlan can help some to travel through the gate. I think no matter what the written material, unless it confounds logic, it never makes it through the gate. "How to" books have never worked for me, i.e. "how to meditate", "how to succeed", "how to be happy", etc. The sound of one hand slapping, that gets through, especially when it's our logical mind that gets whacked.

[hilary]

More for the reservations list, thanks. (I've allocated myself one day off a week this year, and I've been rediscovering the joys of public libraries. My inner 4 year old is delighted.)

Agreed, reading books doesn't have a lot to do with getting through. I'm looking out for anything that can help people discover 'how to'. Sometimes as a reader you find yourself suggesting a first step like 'sing' or 'go lean on a tree'. But if what you're saying is 'let go' or 'don't panic' - heh, well, that doesn't necessarily help quite as much as you'd want to...

[meng]

That must be great to have such enthusiasm for reading. I can almost hear the young girl, rustling through pages. You obviously find it to be a gateway. Or maybe a key.

[meng]

How do you ~excite~ the dao of a reading to one you're interpreting for? How do you get them through the gate, in terms of understanding the reading on their own inner intuitive level?

[meng]

Traveling through the gate:

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1155295715?bclid=339013709&bctid=849866668

"... not being afraid to go up against the wall of what you don't know."

[hilary]

How do you ~excite~ the dao of a reading to one you're interpreting for? How do you get them through the gate, in terms of understanding the reading on their own inner intuitive level?
That's not something you do for people, I think. There comes a point where you have to realise you've done all you can; they'll get it when they get it. If it's 6 months later, that's because 6 months on is the right moment.

But to open gates and smooth paths, I try to listen well enough to learn how they engage with things. Some people live through stories and stepping into characters, some need visual landscapes to walk through, some (not unlike me) find it easier if their logical mind is kept occupied, some feel the dynamics of the thing physically.

I was just listening again to the recording of my talk with Cesca (offering it a bonus for people kind enough to refer a friend to the I Ching Class page), and she mentioned getting people to embody the reading - sit like a mountain, or move like a river. (And you can do that, too, by feeling different lines in different parts of the body - and not only in 31 and 52.)

I came back here to thank whoever recommended Women who run with the wolves and Eat, Pray, Love. I can't see who it was, now, but they've sent me to book heaven.

[hollis]

That would be listener, who regularly puts little gems to here.

[listener]

That would be listener, who regularly puts little gems to here.

And I THANK the friend who recommended Eat Pray and Love to me, it IS a gem.

and Hilary, you and Clarissa Pinkola Estes are kindred spirits! (that book has a permanent spot in my nightstand)

[meng]

That's not something you do for people, I think. There comes a point where you have to realise you've done all you can; they'll get it when they get it. If it's 6 months later, that's because 6 months on is the right moment.

But to open gates and smooth paths, I try to listen well enough to learn how they engage with things. Some people live through stories and stepping into characters, some need visual landscapes to walk through, some (not unlike me) find it easier if their logical mind is kept occupied, some feel the dynamics of the thing physically.

I was just listening again to the recording of my talk with Cesca (offering it a bonus for people kind enough to refer a friend to the I Ching Class page), and she mentioned getting people to embody the reading - sit like a mountain, or move like a river. (And you can do that, too, by feeling different lines in different parts of the body - and not only in 31 and 52.)

I came back here to thank whoever recommended Women who run with the wolves and Eat, Pray, Love. I can't see who it was, now, but they've sent me to book heaven.

I find this thread and this post very hard to understand. It seems you want to talk about how to, but yet you don't just go through. Then you say that exciting the dao of a reading is something you can't do for another. I'm at a loss.

And then there's this gem: "...and she mentioned getting people to embody the reading - sit like a mountain, or move like a river." Well - duh.

[hilary]

With 'not something you do for people' I meant 'get them through the gate', by which I understood something like make them get it, make them change.

I started the thread thinking of more of someone who's already got the message and wants to change, but doesn't know how. Like knowing you need to let something/someone go, or stop worrying, or not pick up other people's emotions as if they were your own. Or, come to that, knowing you need some kind of help from somewhere with your marriage, or your finances.

And then there's this gem: "...and she mentioned getting people to embody the reading - sit like a mountain, or move like a river." Well - duh."Duh" for you, not for me - that's not my natural way of connecting with anything (though it does me good to try it out). I'm more of a story person. Hence my efforts to pick up on what would work best for whoever I'm working with.

Somehow I doubt any of this is particularly strange or new to you. I imagine there are just some wires crossed - maybe because all I'm saying is so self-evident that you're searching in vain for the hidden depths?

Speaking of story people, Elizabeth Gilbert has led me through Italy and I'm settling into India with her, and I'm ordering myself a copy of Women who run with the wolves - no way is this a book to read once and send back to the library.
That would be listener
Thank you, Listener. :bows:

[meng]

With 'not something you do for people' I meant 'get them through the gate', by which I understood something like make them get it, make them change.

I started the thread thinking of more of someone who's already got the message and wants to change, but doesn't know how. Like knowing you need to let something/someone go, or stop worrying, or not pick up other people's emotions as if they were your own. Or, come to that, knowing you need some kind of help from somewhere with your marriage, or your finances.

"Duh" for you, not for me - that's not my natural way of connecting with anything (though it does me good to try it out). I'm more of a story person. Hence my efforts to pick up on what would work best for whoever I'm working with.

Somehow I doubt any of this is particularly strange or new to you. I imagine there are just some wires crossed - maybe because all I'm saying is so self-evident that you're searching in vain for the hidden depths?

Speaking of story people, Elizabeth Gilbert has led me through Italy and I'm settling into India with her, and I'm ordering myself a copy of Women who run with the wolves - no way is this a book to read once and send back to the library.



I'm preparing a nice mushroom soup. Won't you join me for lunch, deary? Perhaps we may excite the dao, travel through a gate or two.

But seriously (not that was I wasn't), I guess our paths are just so different, because I find it very hard to grasp: how to move (yourself or someone else) through the gate without direct experience with it. That just makes my eyes do circles in opposite directions.

Exciting the dao of a reading within the person you're reading for is a matter of being that reading. They may not be able to reason with Yi about a matter, but they can feel you. And you feel them. Understanding is not something told to them, it is something awakened in them. I guess that's sorta what a good book can do? Can't help you much there, except I do know of one which you may find interesting, called the Eye Ching. ;)

[hilary]

Mmm. Must come round for the soup - but try not to let your eyes circle like that, it's bad for my appetite.

Being the reading for someone, mutual awareness, good 31-ish stuff - I think I know what you mean. Sometimes I even manage it. And sometimes the gate they're going through is many miles away from anything I've ever seen. The reading still does the work, even if I have scarcely a glimmering of what work it's doing.

[meng]

Ultimately it's up to each to even want to pass through our obstacles. I certainly agree there. I think that will can be guided, but the individual has to want it enough to work for it. You can lead a horse to a book but you can't make him think.

[topal]

because I find it very hard to grasp: how to move (yourself or someone else) through the gate without direct experience with it. That just makes my eyes do circles in opposite directions.


If I've understood it correctly, I don't think you always need to have direct experience of a problem to help someone with it. I think it can certainly make a big difference depending on the case in question, but generally you can facilitate someone's understanding and assist them in many ways without having experience of the problem. Who knows? Former life experiences may come into play here too.

Topal

[meng]

Those who can, do, those who can't, teach? No doubt this is often how it is. Sure, of course, you can read all about something, and you can tell someone else what you've read, or recommend the book. I wouldn't exactly called that inspired, however. It's said the longest distance is from the brain to the heart. Very easy to talk about change, not as easy to change yourself. That's why a guide must know experientially. I wouldn't go on a tiger hunt following a guide who only read about hunting tigers, even if he had a PhD in hunting.

[maremaria]

... That's why a guide must know experientially. I wouldn't go on a tiger hunt following a guide who only read about hunting tigers, even if he had a PhD in hunting.


I'm not sure if I have understand well what you say about experience. I quess you don't mean the "teacher" should have live the same situation in order to be able to "see" and "inspire" in a way. I mean , lets say for example I have a problem which looks like climbing a mountain. A phychologist is an experience person but a mountain climber could be helpful maybe more to inspire me.
(hope it make sense waht i'm trying to say)

[meng]

A phychologist is an experience person but a mountain climber could be helpful maybe more to inspire me.
(hope it make sense waht i'm trying to say)

Yes. Inspire, set you straight on the dangers and realities of climbing, and help you to survive. A good and life-experienced psychologist should do the same thing.

[meng]

I believe that this gets into why we aren't allowed to escape difficult life situations, no matter how wonderful a student we've been. There is no easy way to get it right. No way to scoot to the head of the class. My troubles have always been my best teacher.

Is this not so with you?

[maremaria]

Well, If I could choose between the easy way and the hard way to climb to the mountain first response will be : The easy way !!!:rofl:

But sure, when the easy way looks like escaping form the reality, avoinding the problem , yes the difficult path seems the most rewarding one.

About resourses . Seems that can be anything and nothing. (nothing specific)

[trojan]

The danger I see in suggesting books to people is their own associations with that book may already be existing. For example I never read "Women who run with the Wolves" I just know it was the butt of alot of jokes a good few years ago. Its like if someone suggested to me "Men are from Mars.." I'd groan inwardly because I'd read all that stuff years ago and it wouldn't be what I'd wanted as a result of consulting the Yi. I'm going to have to take a look at 'Women who run with the wolves' but I know its an oldish book so many may have already read it.

[hilary]

I'm not sure that has to be a problem. Maybe they've already read it, and forgot it, and only need to hear the title to have a huge 'aha!' moment :)

As for the need to have experienced what you're reading for someone about - if that's what you're saying, Bruce, then I don't agree. In some cases it's abundantly obvious that my experience is inadequate to what my client's going through. This is why they're coming to me for an I Ching reading, not a Hilary reading: the oracle will help them, through my efforts, whether or not I'm personally up to the task. I don't have to be more experienced - or wiser or more enlightened, thank goodness - than the people I read for. I just have to be good at giving them the experience of connection with the oracle.

More radically... in all cases, obvious or not, I have to at least allow the possibility that my experience is inadequate. Of course I'll use all I can draw on, and of course this will often lead to me making specific practical suggestions (and maybe even recommending books/tools/resources), but the bottom line is that this is their reading, their connection with/through Yi, and it will lead to their understanding. Which is as likely as not to be better than mine.

[meng]

As for the need to have experienced what you're reading for someone about - if that's what you're saying, Bruce, then I don't agree.

Not exactly, I'm talking about your intimate experience with the Yi, and your personal care and connection with the one being read for. If you have personal experience with the matter in question, so long as you're able to retain objectivity, so much the better. Life experience is life experience.

In some cases it's abundantly obvious that my experience is inadequate to what my client's going through. This is why they're coming to me for an I Ching reading, not a Hilary reading: the oracle will help them, through my efforts, whether or not I'm personally up to the task. I don't have to be more experienced - or wiser or more enlightened, thank goodness - than the people I read for. I just have to be good at giving them the experience of connection with the oracle.

No, you don't have to be, but what a shame to underestimate how helpful sharing your experience may be to a client.

And you know, the ones that help most with my readings, it has nothing to do with being more experienced - or wiser or more enlightened. That's your projection, has nothing to do with what I've said. What matters is that they are tuned into themselves enough to bring the meaning to life in them, and in their words to me. That can come from a child as well as from a weathered old person.

More radically... in all cases, obvious or not, I have to at least allow the possibility that my experience is inadequate. Of course I'll use all I can draw on, and of course this will often lead to me making specific practical suggestions (and maybe even recommending books/tools/resources), but the bottom line is that this is their reading, their connection with/through Yi, and it will lead to their understanding. Which is as likely as not to be better than mine.

I could understand distancing yourself from Yi's words. You shun charisma as a means of influencing. That keeps you safely out of the loop, except to translate/interpret. It's a way, though not the only way.

[topal]

Those who can, do, those who can't, teach? No doubt this is often how it is. Sure, of course, you can read all about something, and you can tell someone else what you've read, or recommend the book. I wouldn't exactly called that inspired, however. It's said the longest distance is from the brain to the heart. Very easy to talk about change, not as easy to change yourself. That's why a guide must know experientially. I wouldn't go on a tiger hunt following a guide who only read about hunting tigers, even if he had a PhD in hunting.

I wasn't talking about a books necessarily here, I was talking about one-to-one guidance be it via the I Ching or counselling or whatever. I wasn't even talking about inspiration as such just being able to provide a listening ear and say the right thing that can spark that regeneration within someone - and it can come from the most innocent of folks as you say - a child or a so called non-academic - especially a non academic in my experience! lol.

Yes, the tiger analogy. But I think the point is, it will be very rare that you find someone who has experienced all there is. That's the value of a network I think. Each experience can contribute to the whole. But as to a personal reading that someone such as yourself or Hilary provides I think there must be an obvious understanding that there can only be facilitation not a silver platter process. It depends for what reason that person goes to see you - a quick fix or a genuine long-term understanding.

Yes, it's great IF you have a ready made personal experience to cater for all clients but most often you won't.

Not exactly sure the primary point you're trying to make Bruce. But then, I'm running on empty a bit right now.:) Could you give a two or three sentence summary of what you mean stripped down to the essentials?

Topal

[hilary]

No, of course I'm not out of the loop. That's a bizarre idea. How could I be?

Everything I am goes in (and then a bunch of judgements, preconceptions and the like comes out again to make space)
- and that's only the smallest part of what goes in.

That's all I'm saying. You know - like being the oil for the hinge on the gate.

[meng]

Actually, Topal, the original point has become obscured, and I've obscured Hilary's point even more, I fear. Just very different ways of coming to something, me thinks. I got excited when I saw the title of this thread, but I was disappointed that it was a roundup of already published materials rather than an open dialogue on ways of traveling through the gate, which to me is something real and magical. Ah, well, I'll go back to conversing with little green men about it.

[meng]

That's all I'm saying. You know - like being the oil for the hinge on the gate.

I like that image. And apple pie cooling on the window sill...

[maremaria]

I’m a little bit skeptical about those self-improvement/development manuals. Being in a phase of “going or not going out of the gate” I think in a stage like that, one has a lot of questions, tries to find solution. Those books definitely are full of answers but one must be very careful what to consume. Sometimes our urge to find a solution, to get quickly out of the courtyard leads us to take the first thing we find in front of us.
Since I have read only one or two of those books ages ago, maybe I’m not adequate enough to make any judgment about how valuable or not are they and if the help us to find our answers or just adapt some ready-made answers/behaviors. Does those books helps us to go out or by getting through that gate we enter in another courtyard? Just wondering.

I’m through a very difficult phase this period of time and although I don’t see in a positive way all those solutions at the same time I’m in a dilemma if I’ll use one of those “easy” solutions. I’m inclined not to use but still the temptation is there.

I asked Yi about that . What if I do ? Yi said 63.4 . What if I don’t ? Yi said 48 to 7
My Well.
Re this thread, my resources , the water in my well , are some literature books, poems, songs, images, sounds, memories, dreams, stories, myths, heroes from my country’s mythology and of course some significant-to me- people. It’s that interactions, those healing relationships where you can hear the other and be heard and learn to hear yourself. It’s that we share in our walks. Serious stuffs, funny stuffs or nonsense

My resources, those small or bigger things significant or less significant gathered together, they make a skein of thread like the one Ariadne gave to Theseus to help him find his way out of the Labyrinth after killing the Minotaur.


maria

[listener]

Very lovely, maria.

Trojan, The "wolves' book WAS the butt of many jokes and just the title alone put me off, so I didnt read it until last year..and I was very pleasantly surprised. It was not what I expected at all.

When this thread first started, I did have reservations about the idea...and I remember thinking that if Bruce were here, he would have something to say....something much like he has said:).

For those who really study the I Ching over time, it is rather true that one reading alone can be so rich and so valuable in and of itself, that one could spend a long time just dwelling with the reading ( bumping into the meaning of the lines, as someone recently said) and find tremendous guidance forthcoming.

But when people get an I ching reading from Hilary, it could behoove her to have a rich soup of ideas to draw from.....resources to suggest as followup, if she is so moved by her intuition.

However I do so like Bruce's concept of an open dialogue about traveling through the gate......indeed a "real and magical" journey when it emanates strictly from the individual. I'd like to see that kind of thread.......but I dont know how many would actually participate and share. It would be magical though..and it would take a real generousity. To me , it would be like a more personal "women who Run with The wolves" because basically, that is what Estes does, she takes a story ( much like a reading) and follows it to the deeper meaning, the mythological and individual significance. Kind of just like what Maria is saying above....one's personal well and how it comes alive if one dwells with a reading
I think you would be good at starting a thread like that, Bruce. :mischief:

[meng]

Sorta like: you show me yours if I show you mine? Let the little green gremlins and things out of the closet, and reveal what that man is really doing behind that closed curtain? (Maybe you don't wanna know!) Me and my curled up green foot in my mouth.

But ok, will let it cook awhile. :)

[meng]

Listener, how 'bout a thread like:

Controlled neurotic states: Secrets of Divination
hero's gateway through the unconscious

[bradford]

Women Who Run With the Wolves can be a little too close to the edge for some folk.
I hear there's a tamer sequel coming out soon - Women Who Jog With Their Dogs

[meng]

And a softer version yet: The Dog Whisperer

[trojan]

However I do so like Bruce's concept of an open dialogue about traveling through the gate......indeed a "real and magical" journey when it emanates strictly from the individual. I'd like to see that kind of thread.......but I dont know how many would actually participate and share. It would be magical though..and it would take a real generousity. To me , it would be like a more personal "women who Run with The wolves" because basically, that is what Estes does, she takes a story ( much like a reading) and follows it to the deeper meaning, the mythological and individual significance. Kind of just like what Maria is saying above....one's personal well and how it comes alive if one dwells with a reading
I think you would be good at starting a thread like that, Bruce. :mischief:

I have no idea what you mean so can't say if i would participate. :D

But I can't stand it when someone takes a perfectly straightforward reading like Karcher does sometimes, and subjects it to all sorts of mythological musings. I think to myself this is nothing to do with the Yi and whats more, to my mind they missed the whole point of the reading. Also I suspect they bring in all the mythology stuff so they can twist the reading to what they want it to say - they can make an answer that really says "you are wasting your time, forget it" mean they are doing something amazing as some kind of hero :rolleyes:



:eek: How dare i say that, lol, slap my hand

[trojan]

Women Who Run With the Wolves can be a little too close to the edge for some folk.
I hear there's a tamer sequel coming out soon - Women Who Jog With Their Dogs



:rofl: Yup thats the kind of joke I recall and then there was something like "Men who run with women who run with...." and it went on like that.

I inwardly wrote it off without reading it but now I think i will have to read it. I would have thought it was very dated by now but perhaps i missed something

[meng]

I have no idea what you mean so can't say if i would participate. :D

But I can't stand it when someone takes a perfectly straightforward reading like Karcher does sometimes, and subjects it to all sorts of mythological musings. I think to myself this is nothing to do with the Yi and whats more, to my mind they missed the whole point of the reading. Also I suspect they bring in all the mythology stuff so they can twist the reading to what they want it to say - they can make an answer that really says "you are wasting your time, forget it" mean they are doing something amazing as some kind of hero :rolleyes:



:eek: How dare i say that, lol, slap my hand

I know that's why I do it (get into mythology and symbolism), just to twist a reading to get it to say what I want it to, and to confuse and misguide others. Probably Karcher does too, and Jung, and Campbell. :rolleyes:

[trojan]

I know that's why I do it (get into mythology and symbolism), just to twist a reading to get it to say what I want it to, and to confuse and misguide others. Probably Karcher does too, and Jung, and Campbell. :rolleyes:

OTOH am I supposed to think that because Jung and Karcher 'do it', it must be incredibly useful ? Never had much time for Jung at all so because he uses alot of mythology doesn't make using mythology especially illuminating for me - or convince me that it has much to do with interpreting the Yi at all. Karcher I refer to often its just some of his readings seem to drift pretty far IMO.


I never said it was used to confuse and misguide others, I just think its an add on, not part of the Yi. I mean if its Chinese myth and history its different but if its Greek or Indian mythology then relating it to the Yi becomes a little spurious for me.

But point taken, having expressed my view I will henceforth keep quiet about it so as not to inhibit mythology users free expression :footinmouth:

[maremaria]

I never said it was used to confuse and misguide others, I just think its an add on, not part of the Yi. I mean if its Chinese myth and history its different but if its Greek or Indian mythology then relating it to the Yi becomes a little spurious for me.

:

:confused: I'm not sure I have understand you. I don't know many Chinese myths but I believe that the core of the myth is everywhere the same. They talk about one common thing. Human beings. It that so important the origin of each story or the story itself or better the people behind the stories ?

I'ld like to help me understand what is Yi and what is not .....if you want of course. :)

Maria

[meng]

Trojan,

Yes, well, you mention that you see no use in it often enough that I think everyone by now knows you have no use for anything but surface interpretations. What good does it do to go on repeating yourself about it, other than to throw cold water on something which interests others? We get it: Trojan doesn't place value in anything beyond the obvious, she throws away the lines if there are more than two, because it is too complicated to reckon with, and she doesn't enjoy philosophical discussions. Ok, think we got that now.

[trojan]

Trojan,

Yes, well, you mention that you see no use in it often enough that I think everyone by now knows you have no use for anything but surface interpretations. What good does it do to go on repeating yourself about it, other than to throw cold water on something which interests others? We get it: Trojan doesn't place value in anything beyond the obvious, she throws away the lines if there are more than two, because it is too complicated to reckon with, and she doesn't enjoy philosophical discussions. Ok, think we got that now.

Well I realise that which is why i already said I would keep quiet about it. Theres no need to be so rude and nasty about it. You probably have repeated yourself sometimes too. Its hardly as if you never pour cold water over anything is it !

[maremaria]

Trojan ,there is an "edit" button .

[trojan]

But point taken, having expressed my view I will henceforth keep quiet about it so as not to inhibit mythology users free expression :footinmouth:


See I said it here already. No need for you to be such a jerk about it !

[trojan]

Trojan ,there is an "edit" button .


What are you suggesting i edit ?

[maremaria]

See I said it here already. No need for you to be such a jerk about it !

jerk :A dull stupid fatuous person

:eek:

[trojan]

:confused: I'm not sure I have understand you. I don't know many Chinese myths but I believe that the core of the myth is everywhere the same. They talk about one common thing. Human beings. It that so important the origin of each story or the story itself or better the people behind the stories ?

I'ld like to help me understand what is Yi and what is not .....if you want of course. :)

Maria

Well you think the core of myth is the same every where - many people do, I guess thats what myth is. I feel it to be less meaningful than that - but sorry I can't speak about it further as apparently i have said it way too many times already so please ignore my point of view.

[trojan]

jerk :A dull stupid fatuous person

:eek:

Well thats what he pretty plainly called me so i am just returning the compliment

[lightangel]

Trojan,

Yes, well, you mention that you see no use in it often enough that I think everyone by now knows you have no use for anything but surface interpretations. What good does it do to go on repeating yourself about it, other than to throw cold water on something which interests others? We get it: Trojan doesn't place value in anything beyond the obvious, she throws away the lines if there are more than two, because it is too complicated to reckon with, and she doesn't enjoy philosophical discussions. Ok, think we got that now.

I am pretty sure that I should stay out of this:rolleyes: but I want to say what I think.

Which is: I really don't think that the 'depth' of a reading is directly related to whether you use all lines, or just one line, or the relating hexagram, or the fan yao, or mythology for that matter. I think those things are just a matter of preference.

In fact, I think that all those 'accessories' might be adding a fictitious depth to the reading sometimes. You could use them to expand on the 'fortune telling' aspect of it, for instance (the fan yao says you will meet a handsome pirate on a white horse:bows:).

The real depth of the reading is really up to how far each person is willing to go. It depends on how much you meditate on what you got, how willing you are to see things for what they are and not see what you want to see, how much honesty and open mindedness you bring to it. That is what matters. That is where the Yi is most powerful, in my opinion, it will light up a candle, set off a little idea, from which you can take flight, if you are willing to do so and if you have the time. With or without the accessories.

[topal]

I think it just comes down to us all taking a bit of everything - bit of Lofting, a bit of Jung; a bit of Karcher; Wilhelm and learning to see where these different ways can apply. We'll all have certain bias towards different interpretations but we can use them all to enrich the essence of the Yi and ourselves no? Stating the obvious maybe but let me be Topal-the-diplomat for a bit as I see what you've both said as being very true.

Myth is immensely important imo. and permeates everything. But at the same time, I've seen examples where it's taken to far, where something is imbued with too much meaning making it too symbolically heavy. But that's life isn't it? The pendulum swing is ever moving and we have to learn to find that creative tension all the time...

So, I think there was a bit of general testiness around on this subject.

Guys don't take it all to heart - there's more important things to get steamed up about. Both you guys are very sensitive I think - that's where you both get your great empathy from and where I guess it can become a little raw at times...Join the club...

(Mars is in Cancer right now Trojan :mad:)

Topal

[meng]

Myth, stories, symbolism - all valid subject matter, as it pertains to Yijing. Not everyone relates well with it, fine. I don't relate to the discussions on Chinese/English translations, but I don't comment somewhere on every discussion of it that it isn't important to me or that I don't like it. There are some who are genuinely enthused about the subject and it's relevance. Why diminish that in any way? It's very unfair to those who get something out of it.

[hilary]

mmf.

The interesting thing is that on the couple of occasions when I've heard Stephen K actually give a reading in person, he's been very direct and unambiguous with the message, and also quite brief. I imagine that when he's exploring a reading for himself, though, or demonstrating the scope of a technique, he'll take it as far as it can go. It's not the same as having someone in front of you and a responsibility as messenger.

I like Topal-the-diplomat. :bows:

[maremaria]

Trojan,

Since I’m one of those here who use Greek myths to interpreted Yi’s answer, I thought your comments was about my way of understandings Yi. For me its not wrong , I found it helpful and I use it. I don’t want you to accept my way or my point of view but I wish you could respect it… If I’m not asking too much.

From our early years, we learn those tales, myths, stories whatever one can call them. They are a part of our life , our culture . I like them and they are meaningful to me. To you there are not. But that doesn’t mean I think your opinion , your point of view is wrong just because I can’t understand why you can’t see the associations could have no-Chinese myths to Yi. To me is obvious to you is not. You think my way is spurious, I think your is different without making any judgments.

If you wish, I can ignore your point of view, but I wish you could respect mine. When that doesn’t happened I can not ignore it.

Thank you,
Maria

[trojan]

Myth, stories, symbolism - all valid subject matter, as it pertains to Yijing. Not everyone relates well with it, fine. I don't relate to the discussions on Chinese/English translations, but I don't comment somewhere on every discussion of it that it isn't important to me or that I don't like it. There are some who are genuinely enthused about the subject and it's relevance. Why diminish that in any way? It's very unfair to those who get something out of it.

So what ! I don't care what you do or don't do. You aren't my role model for behaviour in any way. If i want to comment I'll comment.

I already said I took your point some time back - how many times are you going to restate your point. You are basically saying you don't want to hear me me. Well put me on ignore then !

Besides wake up to yourself ! You think you are some kind of Mr Tolerant ? You have always picked up on things you don't like. Even on this thread you've gone on and on about how you don't see the point of 'going through the gate 'etc You were the one pouring scorn on the 'sit like a mountain' idea' so what you accuse me of you do yourself all the time. But its okay for you to do eh but not me ? Whatever.


But could you now shut up going on about how you want me to shut up. I've got the point. You've said it 3 times ok, and been as nasty as you possibly can about it .

Oh yeah and the reason i often say about how i use lines is only if I'm sharing a reading with a newbie otherwise it wouldn't make sense. I'm not saying it for your benefit or to say its the right way but to point out its a way I'm using to look at their reading.

Lots of people repeat lots of stuff in the shared readings area - its pretty unavoidable as there are new people there all the time - so your criticism of me on that count is pretty empty.

[trojan]

Myth is immensely important imo. and permeates everything. But at the same time, I've seen examples where it's taken to far, where something is imbued with too much meaning making it too symbolically heavy. But that's life isn't it? The pendulum swing is ever moving and we have to learn to find that creative tension all the time...


Topal


:bows: True (oh well except i can't agree myths permeate everything)

[trojan]

Trojan,

Since I’m one of those here who use Greek myths to interpreted Yi’s answer, I thought your comments was about my way of understandings Yi. For me its not wrong , I found it helpful and I use it. I don’t want you to accept my way or my point of view but I wish you could respect it… If I’m not asking too much.

From our early years, we learn those tales, myths, stories whatever one can call them. They are a part of our life , our culture . I like them and they are meaningful to me. To you there are not. But that doesn’t mean I think your opinion , your point of view is wrong just because I can’t understand why you can’t see the associations could have no-Chinese myths to Yi. To me is obvious to you is not. You think my way is spurious, I think your is different without making any judgments.

If you wish, I can ignore your point of view, but I wish you could respect mine. When that doesn’t happened I can not ignore it.

Thank you,
Maria

My comments aren't aimed at you specifically but are around a general bafflement and disagreement about the huge importance of myths and stories and legends. I can honestly say myths, stories, and so on had virtually zero impact on how I grew up . TV is more influential in most kids lives. Tv ads are what they chant in the playground not ancient mythology. You could say theres alot of hidden mythology in the TV ads perhaps - but i don't feel it a great part of everyones inner world. I think pop music is pretty much part of everyones inner world but that doesn't get used so much to help interpret the Yi.

So I am not saying its wrong to use myth to understand the Yi anymore than its wrong to use a TV ad or pop music to understand the Yi. I just don't get all the reverence about it.

Also like Topal said it can make things that aren't that weighty feel pretty weighty.

But if its central to your understanding I will leave well alone if you wish to discuss it with others here or elsewhere. I don't wish to inhibit you

[wealth]

I subscribe to a magazine called Psychologies. Though I don't have all the issues (I started somewhere around issue 6) I have found them useful and interesting for bringing many varied and random points about most things.

I'm not exactly their target audience being a twenty-something lad, but I do find it to help me. YMMV