37. Chia Jen / The Family [The Clan]

[rosada]

37. Chia Jen / The Family [The Clan]

-----
----- above SUN THE GENTLE, WIND
-- --
-----
-- -- below LI THE CLINGING, FIRE
-----

This hexagram represents the laws obtaining within the family. The strong line at the top represents the father, the lowest the son. The strong line in the fifth place represents the husband, the yielding second line the wife. On the other hand, the two strong lines in the fifth and the third place represent two brothers, and the two weak lines correlated with them in the fourth and the second line place stand for their respective wives. Thus all the connections and relationships within the family find their appropriate expression. Each individual line has the character according with its place. The fact that a strong line occupies the sixth place - where a weak line might be expected - indicates very clearly the strong leadership that must come from the head of the family. The line is to be considered here not in its quality as the sixth but in its quality as the top line. THE FAMILY shows the laws operative within the household that, transferred to outside life, keep the state and the world in order.

The influence that goes out from within the family is represented by the symbol of the wind created by fire.

The rulers of the hexagram are the nine in the fifth place and the six in the second, hence it is said in the commentary on the decision: "The correct place of the woman is within; the correct place of the man is without."

THE SEQUENCE
He who is injured without, of a certainty draws back into the family.

Miscellaneous Notes
THE FAMILY is inside.

The upper trigram Sun means influence, the lower, Li, means clarity; accordingly the hexagram points to the outgoing influence that emanates from inner clarity.
-Wilhelm

[sparhawk]

http://www.yitoons.com/yicards/yicard37.jpg

[topal]

Thought I'd post some of Michael Graeme's I Ching Notes on 37. I think he has a light touch:


37

When we have overreached ourselves and suffered injury, we
are naturally inclined to return home, or to whatever it is that
grounds us in reality. So, after a time of Darkening o f the
Light, there follows The Household or The Family. After
suffering injury or humiliation in the greater world, the family
is the one place we can turn to where we might expect to be
received unconditionally for who we are, rather than for who
we are trying to be.

In ancient China the relationships, the order and the discipline
within a household, among family members, was seen as a
model for governing the state. In order to correct problems of
state, first everything in the household needed to be correct. If

society irretrievably breaks down at the family level, then the
state is doomed to fail regardless of the policies it adopts.
In personal terms this means that by returning to the key values
of openness, love and sincerity, it is possible to create harmony
in any situation, as a woman creates harmony in a well run
household b y exercising gentleness and an ability to nurture
those around her.

The message is that we must look to the inner woman,
regardless of our physical gender, and cultivate the feminine
qualities of receptivity and perseverance in our trust of the
unknown, rather than pursue external goals by force or in an
otherwise masculine manner. We may have recently suffered
injury or humiliation and we are not presently possessed of
sufficient wisdom and clarity in order impose a proper
direction on things. Instead, we must seek to ensure that the
truths we adhere to, or the foundation of our being, is correct.

Only by nurturing our ability to trust in the unknown can we
hope to win any lasting external influence. The writer who
does not know what he is talking about will have less influence
than the one who does. Before we can achieve such a position,
our words must be based upon something so lid, as a flame
depends for light upon its fuel. Words must be supported by
our conduct, by our inner conviction, otherwise how are we to
be believed?

Here we must be content to take the back seat for a while and
seek to reconnect, to nurture once more our sense of inner
truth. The ego might grow impatient but we must resist the
nagging temptation to get on and achieve something. Holding
to the sense of inner truth is sufficient for it to penetrate to
others and then our words will carry meaning.

__________

Topal

[ravenstar]

Wow! Thanks for posting this topal. I enjoyed reading Michael Graeme's I Ching Notes.

A song that came to my mind is the song by John Denver, "Sweet Surrender"

There's a spirit that guides me, a light that shines for me.
My life is worth livin', I don't need to see the end.
Sweet, sweet surrender...
Live, live without a care
Like a fish in the water
Like a bird in the air....

Surrender doesn't mean we give up or quit. It means we've let go of any emotional attachment. When we run into our mother's arms, for a time we feel loved, secure, a part of a family. We stop worrying and suddenly a big weight is taken off our shoulders. Our mind is set free, we trust again, which also helps to open the lines of communication between our inner and outer selves.

ravenstar

[dobro]

I got just the one thing to say about 37: I think it ought not to be restricted to the idea of the family in the genetic sense only (although it can apply to that, for sure); it can also apply to any inner group of which you are a belonging, participating member. Inner group.

[trojan]

I got just the one thing to say about 37: I think it ought not to be restricted to the idea of the family in the genetic sense only (although it can apply to that, for sure); it can also apply to any inner group of which you are a belonging, participating member. Inner group.

Agreed. Also it often refers to your inner sense of home purely within your self - not relating to actual others at all

[frank_r]

37 the Clan, the Family.

37 is one of the 12 karmic hexagrams, and belong together with 39,53 to 64.
64 is one of the 4 kosmic hexagrams.
37 has in this sense a connection with the stomach meridian in acupuncture.

The stomach energy is at it's highest level between 7 and 9 in the morning.
The stomach is the energy in the body that has a very yang force. It has to digest everything that has been eaten so it has no mercy with the food that it is eating. Because digestion is in that way a destruction from the old and reconcontruction of something new. The stomach must think first me, and then the other, otherwise it can not digest something. Somebody with a strong stomach energy is always fit, has a strong and harmonious heartbeat and has a beautiful voice.
Stomach belongs to the element of earth, and a well working family stands always on the Earth

In the family there must also be a hierarchy, the father and the mother are standing above the children in that way. Because when there is no foundation what is good and what is wrong there is chaos in the family. the father and mother have to be the leaders in the family.

In that way it is interesting that 64 is the nucleur hexagram of 37. A family is guiding in new directions but with old values.

[sparhawk]

Just to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion. After raising two children I've learned to loathe Barney... :D You'll understand (http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=21221&hl=)

[topal]

Just to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion. After raising two children I've learned to loathe Barney... :D You'll understand (http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=21221&hl=)

:rofl:: Family: the ruiner of all things good. (Care of Barney and associated muppet control mechanisms)

Topal

[rosada]

THE JUDGEMENT
THE FAMILY. The perseverance of the woman furthers.

The foundation of the familly is the relationship between the husband and wife. The tie that holds the family together lies in the loyalty and perseverance of the wife. Her place is within (second line), while that of the husband is without (fifth line). It is accord with the great laws of nature that husband and wife take their proper places. Within the family a strong authority is needed; this is represented by the parents. If the father is really a father and the son a son, if the elder brother fulfils his position, and the younger fulfils his, if the husband is really a husband and the wife a wife, then the family is in order. When the family is in order, all the social relationships of mankind will be in order.

Three of the five social relationships are to be found within the family - that between father and son, which is the relationship of love, that between husband and wife, which is the relationship of chaste conduct, and that between elder and younger brother, which is the relation of correctness. The loving reverance of the son is then carried over to the prince in the form of faithfulness to duty; the affection and correctness existing between the two brothers are extended to a friend in the form of loyalty, and to a person of wuperior rank in the form of deferance. The family is society in embryo; it is the native soil on which performance of moral duty is made easy through natural affection, so that within a small circle a basis of moral practice is created, and this is later widened to include human relationships in general.

[rosada]

Commentary on the Decision

THE FAMILY. the correct place of the woman is within; the correct place of the man is without. That man and woman have their proper places is the greatest concept in nature.

Among the members of the family there are strict rulers; these are the parents. When the father is in truth a father and the son a son; when the elder brother is an elder brother and the younger brother a younger brother, the husband is a husband and the wife a wife, then the house is on the right way.
When your house is set in order, the world is established in a firm course.

While the Judgement speaks only of the perseverance of the woman, because of the fact that the hexagram consists of the two elder daughters, Sun and Li, who are in their proper places - the elder above, the younger below - the commentary is based onthe two rulers of the hexagram, the nine in the fifth place and the six in the second, and speaks accordingly of both man and woman, whose proper places are respectively without and within. These positions of heaven and earth, hence this is called the greatest concept in nature (literally, heaven and earth).
The proper positions of the individual lines have been discussed above, The action of the family on the world corresponds with the action of fire, which creates the wind.
-Wilhelm

[charly]

Commentary on the Decision

THE FAMILY. the correct place of the woman is within; the correct place of the man is without. That man and woman have their proper places is the greatest concept in nature.
-Wilhelm

Rosada:

What happened to your post about H.37 as «connecting with the egg - home»?

I'm affraid it could have been censored. I agree very much with you. Furthermore, I believe that W/B concept of the correct place of the woman isn't but a mistake.

If we think a few, the correct place for the MAN is within, and that is what JIA REN is telling us. (1)

Maybe you can be allowed in the boys lobby.

(to be continued, I'm working with the stuff for an alternative etymology of JIA)

Yours,

Charly

___________________________
(1) Help, Luis, this is stronger than me, I cann't resist the tentation.

[sparhawk]

___________________________
(1) Help, Luis, this is stronger than me, I cann't resist the tentation.

Sure, go ahead, get me in trouble here with the ladies... :rofl:

[rosada]

Thanks Charly,
I deleted it myself! :rofl:
For those who missed it, I was making the argument that 37.Family might best be understood if the sequence 35 - 37 were interpreted thus..

35. Intercourse.
36. A lone sperm making it's way up the tube.
37. Connecting with the egg! Hi Mom, I'm home!

[charly]

... 37.Family might best be understood if the sequence 35 - 37 were interpreted thus..
35. Intercourse.
36. A lone sperm making it's way up the tube.
37. Connecting with the egg! Hi Mom, I'm home!
Hi, Rosada:

Chinese script was originally from top to down, Jia Ren is then:
家
人


being:
家jia1: home / family /
人ren2: man / person / people /

The MAN character is like an arrow pointing to HOME
The HOME character is composed of ROOF over a PIG. Here a sample of seal character:

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Lst/L00000/l08700/L08793.gif


From: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%AE%B6&submitButton1=Etymology

Isn't it the shape of a BABY within a WOMB?

The MAN is pointed to HOME, but HOME is yet inhabited by the PIG. You was right, the sperm yet connected with the egg at home.

The house is a well known symbol of mother's body. The pig is a well known symbol of fecondity. Chinese prints of a baby riding a pig are highly frequent.

thus:

Jia = home = house = mother = wife
Ren = man = husband
Pig = baby = fecondity = pregnancy

In the old custom, marriage only take place when the bride got pregnant.

Before to return to the boy's house the girl had some sexual freedom remnant of old communitarian social order. The pregnancy was almost assured and also reasonable genetical diversity.

Among some ethnic minorities the custom survived until not long ago.

To found a family is matter of fecondity and wealth. The promise of FAMILY is getting a profitable woman. (1)

Serious matter not for be taken as joke.

Now, we can see:

Jia = wife, mother, the girl got pregnant
Ren = husband, father, the boy commited with her

There is only a family when there are wife and husband but there is not a wife if not pregnant.

Old customs that challenge new social order ?

Yours,

Charly
____________________
(1) the chinese sentence:

利li4: benefit / profit / profitable
女nu3: female / woman / girl
貞zhen1: perseverance / divination / omen

profitable - woman - omen
OMEN [of getting a] PROFITABLE WOMAN.

I believe it's not about women's constancy.

[rosada]

THE IMAGE

Wind comes forth from fire:
The image of THE FAMILY.
Thus the superior man has substance in his words
And duration in his way of life.

Heat creates energy; this is signified by the wind stirred up by the fire and issuing forth from it.

THIS REPRESENTS INFLUENCE WORKING FROM WITHIN OUTWARD.

The same thing is needed in the regulation of the family. Here too the influence on others must proceed from one's own person. In order to be capable of producing such an influence, one's words must have power, and this they can have only if they are based on something real, just as flame depends on its fuel.

Words have influence only when they are pertinent and clearly related to definite circumstances. General discourses and admonitions have no effect whatsoever. Furthermore, the words must be supported by one's entire conduct, just as the wind is made effective by its duration. Only firm and consistent conduct will make such an impression on others that they can adapt and conform to it. If words and conduct are not in accord and not consistent, they will have no effect.

-Wilhelm

[rosada]

Wind is an effect of fire. Similarly, the effect of order within the family is to create an influence that brings order into the world. It is achieved when the head of the family has substance to his words, just as flame must rely upon fuel, and duration in his way of life, just as the wind blows without cease.

[rosada]

I think 37 makes sence if we consider "The woman" to mean the Unconscious, or the way we respond to Intention.

37 is about making one's words have meaning. A person may say something, but how we respond to it determines if those words make anything happen.

I'm just sort of fussing around with this, I think it will become clearer as we take up the lines individually:

A clear intention is easily understood.
If there are no distractions it is easy to fulfill.
But if there is confusion it is hard to trust.
When the Word and the Meaning are in sync the creative process flows.
Feeling supports intention.
Intention embodys feeling.

[toganm]

Hi, Rosada:

Chinese script was originally from top to down, Jia Ren is then:
家
人


being:
家jia1: home / family /
人ren2: man / person / people /

The MAN character is like an arrow pointing to HOME
The HOME character is composed of ROOF over a PIG. Here a sample of seal character:

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Lst/L00000/l08700/L08793.gif





In the old times (and in some places still today) people would keep their animals, like pig, under their houses so they would get the warmth of their animals as way of warming the living area located above. Interestingly the lower trigram is fire, providing warmth.

Togan

[rosada]

THE LINES

Nine at the beginning means:

Firm seclusion within the family.
Remorse disappears.

The family must form a well-defined unit within which each member knows his place. From the beginning each child must be accustomed to firmly established rules of order, before ever its will is directed to other things. If we begin too late to enforce order, when the will of the child has already been overindulged, the whims and passions, grown stronger with the years, offer resistance and give cause for remorse. If we insist on order from the outset, occasions for remorse may arise -in general social life these are unavoidable- but the remorse always disappears again, and everything rights itself. For there is nothing more easily avoided and more difficult to carry through than "breaking a child's will."

[charly]

In the old times (and in some places still today) people would keep their animals, like pig, under their houses so they would get the warmth of their animals as way of warming the living area located above. Interestingly the lower trigram is fire, providing warmth.
Togan

Togan:

The chinese text:

家jia1: home / family
人ren2: man / person / people
利li4: benefit / profit / profitable
女nu3: female / woman / girl
貞zhen1: chaste / perseverance / divination / ome

... is translated by W/B as «The perseverance of the woman furthers»,
... maybe it could been translated as:

«Profitable women omen»
or «An omen of gettig a profitable woman»

Maybe more important than women's constancy is women's warmth.

As you say, lower trigram (|<|) is fire. As by W/B uppet trigram is wind (||<), but also could be tree or wood.

W/B say at H.57(||<||<) : «It is the eldest daughter and symbolizes wind or wood; it has for its attribute gentleness, which nonetheless penetrates like the wind or like growing wood with its roots.»

Fire below wood, the image of passion.

Condition of building a home is getting a profitable woman, if you have a profitable woman, you have a home.

Home is:

Inner middle daughter (war, fire, passion, the pig),
Outer eldest daughter (constancy, pepetrating (1), growing, the roof).


Yours,


Charly

[toganm]

The chinese text:

家jia1: home / family
人ren2: man / person / people
利li4: benefit / profit / profitable
女nu3: female / woman / girl
貞zhen1: chaste / perseverance / divination / ome

... is translated by W/B as
... maybe it could been translated as:

«Profitable women omen»
or «An omen of gettig a profitable woman»

Maybe more important than women's constancy is women's warmth.
.....
Condition of building a home is getting a profitable woman, if you have a profitable woman, you have a home.



Now all women are profitable :-). The real question is how one can profit from the virtue of the woman. The virtue being the yin inward, nourishing, nurturing, holding together etc. as yin is the foundation of yang

Togan

[sparhawk]

or «An omen of gettig a profitable woman»Charly


I imagine a pimp (fiolo, Charly) getting this line and going on a business trip to Eastern Europe... :rofl:

[rosada]

I note how the Image says "The superior man has substance to his words and DURATION to his way of life." Duration means something that lasts over time. You can't know if a person is sincere just because he says, "I love you." He may also says he "loves" fresh air. How can you really know what is meant, if his words have "substance"? All you can do is respond to what you think is his meaning, but it is only by seeing how he acts over time that you really know the intention behind the words.

The persevering "Woman" in this hexagram is the unconscious persevering in responding to the true intention behind the words, even if the words themselves make no sence. Like a mother who teaches her child to talk by responding to what the child means, rather than to what he says, as when the child says "ba" and she responds as if he said "ball", because she understands that was his intention behind the word. Because she has faith in him and persevers in responding to that faith, ultimately the child learns to talk.

Furthermore, If the man, the conscious mind, constantly lies, constantly says, "Let's do lunch," but never follows through, the woman, the unconscious mind, loses faith in him, stops making space for this on her calendar and thus it never happens. But if the man says "Let's do lunch," and means it, the woman will set the date, make the reservations, and maybe even make the lunch.

So the important thing is that the Man/The Intention and the words be in alignment because it is the Intention that the Woman/The Unconscious will make manefest.

[charly]

I imagine a pimp (fiolo, Charly) getting this line and going on a business trip to Eastern Europe... :rofl:
Luis:

Thanks for the translation for «pimp». (1)
Surely you have read «Tango» from Hugo Pratt, local organizations went to Europe in search of profitable women:

http://bp1.blogger.com/_4N6ybVLERfQ/RwzDP8Uw7uI/AAAAAAAAARo/OspfGCCgnq4/s400/tango2.jpg


Also chinese were famous by his brothels. But I speak of another type of profitability.

The 利li4 charactrer was used for Matteo Ricci for his chinese name.

Old and new writers alike give this advice:
There's no advantage to roaming outside,
Keep the heart inside, for
That brings the profit.
From: The Sorrow of the Shepherd Boy,
at http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2004/10/sorrow-of-shepherd-boy.html


I don't undestand it very well, but the advice is clear: «better to be inside». that's profitability.

Un abrazo,

Charly
___________________
(1) like the JunZi, the Noble Man -see the Da Xiang- he speaks lovely and exhibits a good way of life, that's how he gets to engage profitable women («minas»).

[sparhawk]

Also chinese were famous by his brothels. By I speak of another type of profitability.

Un abrazo,

Charly


Oh, I knew that! Besides, I'm the only one here with a dirty mind... I'm the "Alberto Olmedo" (http://www.olmedo.com.ar/) of Clarity. :D

[charly]

Oh, I knew that! Besides, I'm the only one here with a dirty mind... I'm the "Alberto Olmedo" (http://www.olmedo.com.ar/) of Clarity. :D
Luis:

What about the Matteo Ricci advise? Your dirty mind is telling you something?

Charly

[sparhawk]

Luis:

What about the Matteo Ricci advise? Your dirty mind is telling you something?

Charly

Actually, I like better the translation by the blog's author than Spence's, that is, the one you quoted.

Sundry sages, old and new, have said
It is vain, so restless to roam;
Hold your heart within and rest;
This, alone, gives glorious gain.


I wouldn't be surprised that Ricci's source of inspiration had something to do with the advise of 37.

[sparhawk]

By the way, it is clear that Mateo Ricci is talking about introspection and finding gain within oneself, rather than the physical, inside/outside metaphor...

[trojan]

Charly if you are a woman doing a consultation finding profitable women doesn't mean much, just like the glowing naked woman of 36 (according to you) doesn't amount to much meaning wise if you are a female with your own naked body that doesn't glow. ;) Seems to me like you relate every hexagram to a womans body and how it can be of use to a man - and it all seems to limit meanings in a most depressing way IMO.

Being inside does not have to mean being inside a woman as in ******* her - and I actually think thats pretty far off what 37 is about.

[sparhawk]

Seems to me like you relate every hexagram to a womans body and how it can be of use to a man - and it all seems to limit meanings in a most depressing way IMO.


Hey! I want to be Mr. Innuendo here!! :D

(Don't worry, I've got your back, Charly)

[trojan]

well its funny how you two manage to get picture of suspenders belts in most of these threads - I can't wait for 38

[sparhawk]

well its funny how you two manage to get picture of suspenders belts in most of these threads - I can't wait for 38

I wasn't even thinking of it, but, since you brought it up... :rofl:

http://www.debenhams.com/images/products/lrg/20070322_155010713360_LRG.JPG


Mind you, this is the mildest picture I could find in Google images... :rofl:

[charly]

... Seems to me like you relate every hexagram to a womans body and how it can be of use to a man...
Trojan:

I apologize. I have a dirty mind, like ancient chinese do. :bows: They were not angels. But I promise to make an effort in search of meanings for both genres.

I don't use to relate every hexagram only to a woman body, but also to man body, like to all the animals in general.

The uses people can make of own and others' bodies are pretty known. Nothing is new.

Maybe if you doesn't read spanish you cann't get the tenderness the Benedetti's poem has, far enough from the hypocrite righteousness that less dirty guys share with most confucian commentaries.

Speaking of female constancy, do you find it more undestandable than female profitability?

Do you believe that women chastity, or lack of, is responsible for all the human misfortune? What about male chastity?

Trust me, I'm only trying to make evident the inconsistencies or irregularities of some translations that don't respect the original chinese text, that make interpolations and interpretations biased by social and political prejudices.

I don't pretend that the only right reading is the mine. More yet, I believe that each paragraph, each word has many senses and that this is the warranty for fitting oracle answers with consultant questions in the real life world.

... and it all seems to limit meanings in a most depressing way...

I'm affraid that if we take only one meaning as valid, whatever meaning will depress us, say only one moral sense, only one literal sense. Only for guys is not an exception, I know.:o

Once more, I will try to get two tailed meanings for use of girls and guys.

Yours,

Charly

_____________________
... if you are a woman doing a consultation finding profitable women doesn't mean much,
Oh, yes, it means that if you behave like a profitable woman you wil be found by somebody, maybe the correct guy. Among many another senses, of course.

...the glowing naked woman of 36 (according to you) doesn't amount to much meaning wise if you are a female with your own naked body that doesn't glow
Maybe you have reason, maybe not all the naked women glows in the shadows. But Benedetti says so. Maybe we must read «hidden promise» instead os «naked woman». But when the woman is beloved she always shines.

[trojan]

Mind you, this is the mildest picture I could find in Google images... :rofl:

Hah you can't fool me you had to search google to find these, you just whipped the pair you were wearing off and scanned them in !

[charly]

...Mind you, this is the mildest picture I could find in Google images... :rofl:
Luis:

Maybe you look for an image of the DOOR character?

門men2: door / gate

Synonymous of WOMAN, of course!

abrazo,

Charly

[charly]

Now all women are profitable :-). The real question is how one can profit from the virtue of the woman...
Toganm:

1) Not all the women are profitable, this is a dessire, a good dessire from the oracle.
2) If you don't know how, the YI will not tell you how. (*)

yours,

Charly

_______________________
(*) Neither all the yin / yang philosophy will do.

[sparhawk]

Hah you can't fool me you had to search google to find these, you just whipped the pair you were wearing off and scanned them in !

Nope, sorry. Today is not my cross-dressing day. Only on Thursdays and Saturdays... Perhaps I should send you a picture of my hairy legs with black, silken stocking... :rofl:

[charly]

... I can't wait for 38
Trojan:

I go to read 38 with my best whishes. (*)
Maybe you can go forward first an give us the girls point of view?

Yours,

Charly

______________
(*) in the next thread.

[sparhawk]

門men2: door / gate

Synonymous of WOMAN, of course!



Oh, my eyes!! Men2 is borderline pornographic! :D

[trojan]

Ah I don't know how to reply Charly. The truth is I'm too used to thinking of women as human beings rather than some kind of rare species that has special traits like constancy and so on. And profitability ? The woman in 37, or rather the one has the role of caring for what is 'inner' in the situation brings abundance to the family through her nurturance and care which is different to me than the idea of profitability which implies she is a commodity. In other words I see the qualities of what is called the woman here as paying attention to needs and sustenance in the situation. In 37 each attends to his/her own role in the structure - but you seemed to describe the idea of buying in a useful woman, a profitable woman, but I see the woman as making the profit through her skills in the care of this family/situation. The lines 2 and 4 describe how the woman brings increase to the home. But obviously this need not refer to a woman at all, just a kind of role in the situation.

Probably I take your interpretations too literally (though maybe not :rofl: ) But if you taking the 'being inside' of 37 as 'being inside a woman' what you do is erase the woman from the picture altogether inasmuch as she is only a receptacle for the man and i don't think that really is the picture of the woman in 37.

Oh yes BTW if you can bring the mans body more frequently into your interpretations I would be most obliged - it would add a whole new dimension for me - i may even glow in the dark :mischief:

BTW I mentioned hex 38 because Luis has promised an interesting picture for it but won't give us a preview

[sparhawk]

BTW I mentioned hex 38 because Luis has promised an interesting picture for it but won't give us a preview


"Cute" applies more than "interesting," but yes, I will hold my peace on that one until 38 comes up... :)

BTW, the card for 49 is very intriguing...

[rosada]

I'm assuming you all are intentionally personifying those overindulged whims and passions 37.1 warns us about?

Very amusing - not.

Now back in the house before your dad gets home!

[charly]

Ah I don't know how to reply Charly.
Trojan:

It's not a goal but a good begining.

The truth is I'm too used to thinking of women as human beings rather than some kind of rare species that has special traits like constancy and so on.

Men are also human beings, nobody's perfect! In my country women are more than 50% population, the mayority, not rare.

Chinese people from old times preferred men, they give to women the burden of chastity, constancy, and so on, not me. But, of course, they are not like men, there is a little difference.

And profitability ? The woman in 37, or rather the one has the role of caring for what is 'inner' in the situation brings abundance to the family through her nurturance and care which is different to me than the idea of profitability which implies she is a commodity. In other words I see the qualities of what is called the woman here as paying attention to needs and sustenance in the situation.

The profitability of women is of course multiple, not only economic, ethic and reproductive as for confucian commentarists.

When the chinese text uses LI, it is generally well translated as profit / profitable. Given that the text uses LI applied to woman, it is clear that means profit / profitable, if not, why don't use another word?

Not a commodity, like wheat or rice, it cost hard work to get the revenues.

Not only women pay attention to needs and sustenance: sometimes also men, sometimes also pets...

In 37 each attends to his/her own role in the structure - but you seemed to describe the idea of buying in a useful woman, a profitable woman, but I see the woman as making the profit through her skills in the care of this family/situation.

I believe that the core text, the ZhouYi, speaks of concrete human bonds, the commentaries of abstract roles in abstract structures.

When the commentaries speak of marriage the ZhouYi uses a character maybe better translated as abduction, catching.

Maybe the ritual abduction of the bride in old customs.

The lines 2 and 4 describe how the woman brings increase to the home. But obviously this need not refer to a woman at all, just a kind of role in the situation.


Not only women bring increase to the home, also men.
Not only to the home brings increase women, also ...


Probably I take your interpretations too literally (though maybe not :rofl: )

You have all the right to do it! I'm making literal translation almost word by word.


But if you taking the 'being inside' of 37 as 'being inside a woman' what you do is erase the woman from the picture altogether inasmuch as she is only a receptacle for the man and i don't think that really is the picture of the woman in 37.

I believe that the inside/outside is not in the core text (the ZhouYi) but in the commentaries that being confucian surely speaks of roles in the family model they defend: patriarchal, autoritarian, utilitarian, not very fond of women and children.

But I believe that it depicts, like a sort of negative, the alter ego of the commentarists: they take women as objects, mere receptacles.

Oh yes BTW if you can bring the mans body more frequently into your interpretations I would be most obliged - it would add a whole new dimension for me - i may even glow in the dark :mischief:

I give you an example: based in the old custom of turning the bride wife only when she gets pregnant, I believe that the WILD GOOSE of H.53 is not only an anser but also the male tool (2).

BTW I mentioned hex 38 because Luis has promised an interesting picture for it but won't give us a preview

Please, could you put your ________ (3) mind on and proceed with H.38 from a girl's point of view? Don't wait for Luis.

Yours,

Charly
_____________
(1) a character with a hand taking somebody by the ear, supposedly the wife.
(2) aka «El Ganso» in spanish slang.
(3) to be freely filled with an adjective.

[charly]

I'm assuming you all are intentionally personifying those overindulged whims and passions 37.1 warns us about?
Very amusing - not.
Now back in the house before your dad gets home!

Yes, mom! :rolleyes: But who did begin it? Not only Luis and me!

Yes, sir! 37.1:

«xian2 you3 jia1 hui3 wang2» (*)

Go us to the 1st. word: xian2

http://www.zhongwen.com/d/182/d126.gif

Zhongwen says «door blocked by wood > barrier / idle » But the character for «wood» also means «tree».

The DOOR is a well kown FEMALE symbol and TREE a well known MALE symbol.

Is this the lesson that I was said to learn? :blush:

(to be contiued)

Yours,

Charly :bows:

________________________
(*) the chinese text:

閑xian2: idle / not busy / enclosure / blocked
有you3: to have / there is / there are
家jia1: home / family
悔hui3: regret /
亡wang2: to die / to perish /

[rosada]

0 Six in the second place means:
She should not follow her whims.
She must attend within to the food.
Perseverance brings good fortune.

The wife must always be guided by the will of the master of the house, be he father, husband, or grown son. Her place is within the house. There, without having to look for them, she has great and important duties. She must attend to the nourishment of her family and to the food for the sacrifice. In this way she becomes the center of the social and religious life of the family, and her perseverance in this position brings good fortune to the whole house.

In relation to general conditions, the counsel given here is to

SEEK NOTHING BY MEANS OF FORCE, BUT QUIETLY CONFINE ONESELF TO THE DUTIES AT HAND.

-Wilhelm

[rosada]

Charly, Do I understand it correctly that the Chinese characters for 37.1 are saying something about being "idle" can cause one to "perish"? Then would that mean 37.2 is the opposite, something about being very busy?

[charly]

Charly, Do I understand it correctly that the Chinese characters for 37.1 are saying something about being "idle" can cause one to "perish"? Then would that mean 37.2 is the opposite, something about being very busy?
Rosada:

The previously quoted are modern uses for 閑xian, mainly as an adjective, but maybe the syntax requires a noun. (*)


Sears provide 1) a fence, 2) barrier, 3) laws and regulations, 4) a stable.

Lin Yutang provide as nouns: 1) a stable, 2) prevention, 3) bounds ,4) for 閒, leisure time, 5) + long tailed bird component a type of pheasant.

Some alternatives:


Idle (or calm) - have - home : have a home calm
blocked (or secure) - have - home: have a home secure


leisure - have - home: have leisure at home
laws - have - home: home has [its] laws


a stable - have - home: home has [a] stable. Remember the pig!
a pheasant (long tailed bird) - have - home: there is [a] pheasant [at] home


[the] long tailed bird is [at] home

About to perish is not oneself who will perish but the regret. Regret passes. Maybe regret always passes. But because of what the regret was?

Something passes that was not good. Maybe the goal justifying the means?

I continue thinking that this have to do with ancient marriage customs.

The pig, the tree, the long tailed bird are maybe the same guy. This guy could be Gus the Goose (but we need to reach line 3 before to find the geese).

Yours,

Charly

__________________________
(*) Maybe a good idea to consult Schluesser, maybe Luis, Harmen or Bradford could aport some light?

[sparhawk]

The previously quoted are modern uses for 閑xian, mainly as an adjective, but maybe the syntax requires a noun. (*)
__________________________
(*) Maybe a good idea to consult Schluesser, maybe Luis, Harmen or Bradford could aport some light?

In his first entry, Schuessler pairs 閑 with 閒 : 閑閒 for "Be moving slowly, lazy"

Second, he has 閑: "Barrier, bar," "obstruct, guard against, protect"

Third: "To restrain, train (horses > then general)" This is probably a semantic extension of 閑 "barrier"

Fourth: "Be large (of pillars and the like)"

Karlgren (GSR 192) has: "Bar, barrier; enclosure; obstruct, guard against; protect; loan for idiom to train, well-trained, refined; great, large minded; move leisurely. The graph has 'door' and 'wood'

Un abrazo,

[crystal_blue]

Tree over Fire,
Dependency thus structured,
Candle in the wind?

[sparhawk]

Interesting quote in the "Portable Dragon" applied to the text of 37:

The ultimate goal of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
Herbert Spencer, English (1820-1903)

[rosada]

Interesting quote indeed, and it is particularly to be connected with 37.3, which I shall now post...

[rosada]

Nine in the third place means:
When tempers flare up in the family,
Too great severity brings remorse.
Good fortune nonetheless.
When woman and children dally and laugh,
It leads in the end to humiliation.

In the family the proper mean between severity and indulgence ought to prevail. Too great severity toward one's own flesh and blood leads to remorse. The wise thing is to build strong dikes within which complete freedom of movement is allowed each individual. But in doubtful instances too great severity, despite occasional mistakes, is preferable, because it preserves discipline in the family, whereas too great weakness leads to disgrace.

"When tempers flare up in the family," nothing is as yet lost.
"When woman and children dally," the discipline of the house is lost.

This line is at the top of the lower primary trigram Li, flame, and likewise at the beginning of the upper nuclear trigram, which is also Li; hense it implies too much heat. Although this is a mistake, such behavior is still to be preferred in the case of a strong line between two weak ones. If the line changes and becomes yielding, the discipline of the house is lost.
-Wilhelm

[charly]

"When tempers flare up in the family," nothing is as yet lost.
"When woman and children dally," the discipline of the house is lost.
-Wilhelm
Rosada:

Thinking about home or family:


Maybe discipline is the most important thing.
Much people think that happiness is, nobody's perfect.

Different kinds of people, from Cortazar:

The cronopios... those disordered and lukewarm beings, leave the loose memories by the house, between glad shouts... and when one passes running, they caress him with smoothness and they say to him: "you do not go to hurt you", and also: "Take care with the steps".
Julio Cortazar translated by Babelfish (1)

This is the reason why the houses of the Famas are ordered and quiet, whereas in those of the Cronopios there are great racket and doors that strike.
Julio Cortazar translated by Babelfish (2)

I subscribe to the second.

Yours,


Charly

_______________________________

(1) ... Los cronopios ... esos seres desordenados y tibios, dejan los recuerdos sueltos por la casa, entre alegres gritos, y ellos andan por el medio y cuando pasa corriendo uno, lo acarician con suavidad y le dicen: "No vayas a lastimarte", y también: "Cuidado con los escalones".
Julio Cortazar: Historias de Cronopios y de Famas.

(2) ...Es por eso que las casas de los famas son ordenadas y silenciosas, mientras que en las de los cronopios hay gran bulla y puertas que golpean.
Julio Cortazar: Historias de Cronopios y de Famas.

[charly]

In his first entry, Schuessler pairs 閑 with 閒 : 閑閒 for "Be moving slowly, lazy"...

Thanks, Luis:

This is very interesting.

If I understand well, Schuessler says that 閑 = 閒, both meaning «be moving slowly, lazy»

閑 has a TREE or a BEAM inside the hollow of a DOOR, between the two halves of a door.
閒 has MOON instead of TREE.

For most authors the character MOON proceeds from the character for MEAT, maybe sacrificial meat, roasted meat whose scent reach the sky and touch the ancestors.


Yours,


Charly

[sparhawk]

Hola Charly,

If I understand well, Schuessler says that 閑 = 閒, both meaning «be moving slowly, lazy»


No, the in the dictionary is paired together, like a compound word with that meaning, but, they are also used interchangeably. Now, to muddle things a little bit more, Mathews has the following:

Mathews (2679) 閑: A bar, a barrier, a fence, an enclosure; thus: to defend.
(a) Stables. A corral.
(b) Large
(c) Trained
(d) used for No. 2672. Leisure, etc.
Mathews (2672) 閒: Leisure, idleness, unoccupied. Distinguish 間 No. 835, of which this character is the older form; and 閑 No. 2679, with which it is now interchanged, though it was formerly a different word. (my underline)

Mathews (835) 間: Among, in, on, while. The space within. Distinguish 閒 No. 2672. This was the original form and is still found used in this sense. (my underline)
(a) A division of a house. N.A. (Numerary adjunt or classifier of noun) of houses, rooms.
(b) To put a space between. To divide. To separate. Intermittent.
(c) To part friends.
(d) To find a flaw or defect in. To blame.

閑 and 閒 are now used interchangeably but, in the past, they had well defined and separate meanings. So, regarding the text of the Yijing, we should not play them interchangeably to derive semantic meanings beyond their own intrinsic scope.

Un abrazo,

[charly]

No, the in the dictionary is paired together, like a compound word with that meaning...
[/INDENT]閑 and 閒 are now used interchangeably but, in the past, they had well defined and separate meanings. So, regarding the text of the Yijing, we should not play them interchangeably to derive semantic meanings beyond their own intrinsic scope.
Un abrazo,

Thanks, Luis:

Maybe fence / corral could be more appropriated. Maybe we could alternate fence / corral with secure / defended, a double advice about home:

it must have a central place for animals (warmth , feelings / industry, economical basis)
it must be protected

Un abrazo,

Charly

[rosada]

Six in the fourth place means:

She is the treasure of the house.
Great good fortune.

It is upon the woman of the house that the well-being of the family depends. Well-being prevails when expenditures and income are soundly balanced. This lead to great good fortune. In the sphere of public life, this line refes to the faithful steward whose measures further the general welfare.

"She is the treasure of the house. Great good fortune."
For she is devoted and in her place.

The fourth line is the yielding lowest line in the upper primary trigram Sun, gentleness. it is the middle line of the upper nuclear trigram Li; when the line changes, it remains within the lower nuclear trigram Sun thus formed. Sun means work, silk, a near-by market - all things that promise wealth. As a yielding line in its proper place, it means great good fortune.

[sparhawk]

六四 富家大吉。
liu4 si4 fu4 jia1 da4 ji2

[sparhawk]

Mind you, if we go by the Chinese characters, there's no "She" in it. Only "treasure of the house, great good fortune," or something like that. The "She" here is somehow implied, perhaps by the general context of the hexagram.

[rosada]

Interesting how the first three lines of 37 discribe a situation where it seems the wife and children need to be disciplined, made to align with the orders of the husband, then line 4 calls the wife "the treasure of the house". I think of the book Life With Father about a Victorian era family where the father is constantly getting things in a muddle, giving totally inappropriate orders and demands and the wife just goes about quietly making everything run right.

[rosada]

We live in a cabin decorated in Early Hippie - lots of color and doo dads. Yesterday my husband hung up a huge black and white block print of Frederick Douglas. Frederick Douglas was a slave who taught himself to read and eventually escaped and became a foremost leader of the abolishionist movement. He has an expression like God saying, "I know what is right and I know what is wrong and I see it all." Anyway, the effect of having this strong male portrait in the middle of our living room is that somehow all the chaos and confusion in this house seems to now have a feel of cheerful spontainaity, and when we do want to streighten up it seems very easy to recognize what needs to be done to make everything be in order.

[charly]

Mind you, if we go by the Chinese characters, there's no "She" in it. Only "treasure of the house, great good fortune," or something like that. The "She" here is somehow implied, perhaps by the general context of the hexagram.
Luis:

I believe that it don't speak of women, but it could be.

富fu4: rich / wealthy
家jia1: home / family
大da4: big / great
吉ji2: lucky /

Some alternatives:

Wealthy home, big luck.
Wealth [and] home, big luck.


The chinese text not only lacks of «She», it also lacks of possessive particle.
I believe that the alternatives for fu jia are:

Adjective - Noun
Noun - Noun


Sears say:

富
Phonetic: 畐 fu2 bi4
Signific: 宀 mian2 building - roof
Etymology: Phonetic Signific, having a home 宀 makes you rich
Sears: Chineseetymology
http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E5%AF%8C&submitButton1=Etymology


A pot with a cover under a roof and a pig under a roof → home infrastructure.
Maybe there is a woman inside the pot! (The place of the woman is inside}
Maybe the pot is a woman (no comments).

See the rich pig:

http://ad.rednet.cn/picture/2007/1/news_22173849_0.jpg

See the profitable woman:

http://images.rednet.cn/articleimage/2008/02/01/85429348.jpg

... both from the same source: http://news.rednet.cn/c/2008/02/01/1433453.htm

Un abrazo,

Charly

[charly]

Interesting how the first three lines of 37 discribe a situation where it seems the wife and children need to be disciplined, made to align with the orders of the husband, then line 4 calls the wife "the treasure of the house". I think of the book Life With Father about a Victorian era family where the father is constantly getting things in a muddle, giving totally inappropriate orders and demands and the wife just goes about quietly making everything run right and never lets her husband see what a silly fool he really is.
Rosada:

All this reminds me the story of SunZi (Art of War) about the Strategist, the King and the King's fovorites that were beheaded.

According to the historian Sima Qian, Sun-zi was given an audience in the state of Wu. Having read the thirteen chapters of Sun-zi's Art of War, the king of Wu (r. 514-496 BC) invited him to demonstrate the drilling of troops with the king's concubines. Sun-zi explained the commands for marching, and the women all answered, "Yes, sir;" but when the drum signals were given, the women burst out laughing. Sun-zi realized that if the orders are not clear and the signals not familiar, the general is at fault. He repeated the signals several times, but the women responded by laughing again. Believing that when the signals are clear but not followed, the officers are at fault, Sun-zi ordered the left and right commanders (two of the king's favorite concubines) beheaded. The king sent a messenger to stop the executions, but Sun-zi disregarded the sovereign's command. After the two commanders were beheaded and replaced, the women obeyed the orders with serious precision. Not wanting to watch but impressed with Sun-zi's military ways, the king appointed him commander of his army.
Sanderson Beck
From: http://www.san.beck.org/EC13-Chou.html#8

The king was a coward, the Strategist heartless, the favorites unaware of the situation.

All of them ended badly, the favorites beheaded, the King and the Strategist at the end also died, the State was defeated after few years. Stingy conducts badly ends.

Women remain laughing till to our time.

Yours,

Charly

____________________

[rosada]

Hmm..I'd see that story as being more representative of 37.3.

[rosada]

The fourth line is usually the position of the faithful steward, the one who performs some service for the public welfare. In the hexagram of The Family this refers to the one who keeps the home running. It used to be job of Home manager was recognized as being one that required skill and understanding. They actually had classes in high school to train for it. That is no longer the case today. Women are expected to have a "real job" outside the home and the true meaning of "treasure of the house" is forgotten.

[charly]

Hmm..I'd see that story as being more representative of 37.3.
Rosada:

Of course but the standard interpretation is related with female roles in traditional society:

1st. shut up!
2nd. you're the home's treasure, go to cook the food and clean the dishes.

But it is curious that the woman is absent from the chinese text of lines except 37.3.

Yours,

Charly

[maremaria]

1st. shut up!
2nd. you're the home's treasure, go to cook the food and clean the dishes.
But it is curious that the woman is absent from the chinese text of lines except 37.3.
Yours,

Charly

I think its obvious why she left .....:rofl:

[sparhawk]

LOL!! I believe she got a good hint... :rofl:

[charly]

The fourth line is usually the position of the faithful steward, the one who performs some service for the public welfare. In the hexagram of The Family this refers to the one who keeps the home running. It used to be job of Home manager was recognized as being one that required skill and understanding. They actually had classes in high school to train for it. That is no longer the case today. Women are expected to have a "real job" outside the home and the true meaning of "treasure of the house" is forgotten.

Rosada:

Something about women jobs in ancient china:


《大雅 - Greater odes of the kingdom》
《蕩之什 - Decade Of Dang》
《瞻卬 - Zhan Yang》
3
瞻卬:
哲夫成城、哲婦傾城。
懿厥哲婦、為梟為鴟。
婦有長舌、維厲之階。
亂匪降自天、生自婦人。
匪教匪誨、時維婦寺。

Zhan Yang:

A wise man builds up the wall [of a city], but a wise woman overthrows it.
Admirable may be the wise woman, but she is [no better than] an owl.
A woman with a long tongue, is [like] a stepping-stone to disorder.
[Disorder] does not come down from heaven; it is produced by the woman.
Those from whom come no lessons, no instruction, are women and eunuchs.

From Book of Odes, Legge translation
http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=13985&if=en&searchu=women+and+eunuchs


Wise women (1) scared the learned men:


They are so powerful that can overthrow the wall of a city.
Wise women move admiration, they were like owls (2), they had powerful eyes.
Not all the women had long tonges, there was submissives and shy.
If not submissive and shy, they were skilled story-tellers.
Learned men prefer to ignore women and eunuchs (3)


But some women and some eunuchs influenced very much the government of the state, learned men prefer not to obtain lessons from these cases.

If lessons were not obtained, how to affirm that dissorders were produced by women?


Yours,


Charly



__________________
(1) maybe sorceress?
(2) no bad, remember Mineva, they can see the invisible.
(3) they scared them too much, unlike wise women, eunuchs were intentional product of men .

[maremaria]

A clever move.... see line 4 !!! :D

[sparhawk]

Small wonder 37 ends up upside down in 38... :rofl: Talk about hexagram sequences... :D

[maremaria]

38.1 ?

she can wait till 44 !!!

[charly]

A clever move.... see line 4 !!! :D
María:
Better see line 5:

37.5:
Nine in the fifth place means:
As a king he approaches his family.
Fear not.
Good fortune.

A king is the symbol of a fatherly man who is richly endowed in mind.
He does nothing to make himself feared; on the contrary, the whole family can trust him, because love governs their intercourse.
His character of itself exercises the right influence.
Wilhelm/Baynes


I wonder why to advice «fear not», maybe the oracle is thinking that the natural 1st. reaction is to fear.

I go to search the chinese texts, I believe that it doesn't speak of a person that behaves like a king but of king.

Maybe the same king that sacrifices at his temple, the same king that sacrifices at Twin Peaks (Mount Qi) (1), the same king that uses to go ahead and punish ...

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

____________________
(1) Twin Peaks = female symbol

Mount Qi ('Twin Peaks') stood near the capital of the original home of the Zhou people in the Wei valley.
Richard Rutt, ZhouYi..., pg.338

[charly]

Small wonder 37 ends up upside down in 38... :rofl: Talk about hexagram sequences... :D

Luis:

Do you remember this:
Chorus:
Take me home,
oh yes
take me home,
take me home,
sweet chariot
take me home.

Ernest Acher: Did you ever see the blue sky?
Chorus: Yes, yes
Ernest Acher: In the middle of the storm?
Chorus: No, no
Ernest Acher: Did you ever see the ocean?
Chorus: Yes, yes
Ernest Acher: Going back and going forth?
Chorus: No, no
Ernest Acher: Did you ever see the sinner?
Chorus: Yes, yes
Ernest Acher: When you're away from home?
Chorus: No, no

From: http://www.lyricsspot.com/les+luthiers-cartas+de+color-lyrics-1455306.html

«Singui ngtumi»!

Charly

[maremaria]

[QUOTE=charly;63544]María:
Better see line 5:

Yours,

Charly

____________________

exactly !!!! ;)

Maria

[rosada]

Thanks for posting 37.5 and keeping us on track, Charly. You are a true "treasure of the house"!

I'll now post it again just to have it in our usual format.

[rosada]

0 Nine in the fifth place means:
As a king he approaches his family.
Fear not.
Good fortune.

A king is the symbol of a fatherly man who is richly endowed in mind. He does nothing to make himself feared; on the contrary, the whole family can trust him, because love governs their intercourse. His character of itself exercises the right influence.

They associate with one another in love.

The line is correct, strong, central; hence the image of a king. As a ruler of the hexagram, it influences the other lines. Being central, it does not effect its ends by means of severity.
-Wilhelm

[charly]

Thanks for posting 37.5 and keeping us on track, Charly. You are a true "treasure of the house"!

I'll now post it again just to have it in our usual format.
Rosada:

How do you know that I use to clean the dishes?

The format isn't less important than the content, maybe it's more important! ;)

Yours,

Charly

[charly]

... As a king he approaches his family.
Fear not. Good fortune...
-Wilhelm

Rosada:

The chinese text:

王wang2: king /
假jia3: fake / false / to borrow / supposed / [maybe anciently «great» or «to go»]
有you3: to have / there is / there are /
家jia1: home / family /
勿wu4: do not /
恤xu4: worry /
吉ji2: lucky /


假jia3 is a conflictive word, maybe W/B read it as «not a true king», «like a king».
Also is used to translate it as «to go».

Some alternatives:

[The] King supposedly has [a] home.
Don't worry. [Be] lucky.


[The] King goes to get [instead of to have] home.
Don't worry. [Be] lucky.


This character 假jia3 in the ZhouYi goes always after 王wang2 (king), see: 37.5, H.45, H.55, H.59

Yours,

Charly

[topal]

37...Hmm. Well, generally I've had this Hex relating quite a bit to relationships but also to what I see as the inner "I"s or aspects of your personality warring for supremacy when they should be working together.

Line 5 epitomizes the point where your relationship with yourself can reach a plateau of sorts and things begin to work - for while at least. The "I"s are assigned their proper roles or are integrated into the higher vision, often linked to the bigger picture outside oneself. I've had this line a lot and it's seldom related to the physical family although of course it can be. A dominant, positive, "Royal self" - the King / Queen; head of the family takes responsibility instead of all the different roles of the family /court being in disarray. They interchange but do what they do best. Direction and responsibility has to be imposed, lovingly, to honour the relationships within our inner family so that it's full potential can manifest now or later. I guess we are setting an example for ourselves from the knowledge that we have by applying it.

Michael Graeme:

To be chastised or disciplined for our transgressions, or for losing our way, has a less profound effect than if we are granted a wise guide whose actions may be
followed as an example. If we are able to follow such a guide, then we can achieve inner harmony.

For one in a position to act as a guide, this might mean letting others go their own way, even though we fear the likelihood of their going astray. And should they go astray, we should not give up on their potential to find their own path once more.


Another take for the mix.

Topal

[dobro]

Wandering Hare, Wandering Thare, Wandering, Wandering, Everywhare.

[rosada]

I love Wilhelm's comment that a wise father does nothing to make himself feared.

How many problems we've all had growing up...
because instead of feeling comfortable going to our parents, we got deeper into trouble -
because we didn't dare face the folks -
because we feared they'd be disappointed! :duh:

[topal]

Wandering Hare, Wandering Thare, Wandering, Wandering, Everywhare.

Once came across a Hare in a freshly ploughed field. Beautiful thing. Bulging eyes and boney backside and ears like propeller blades. It was standing stock still. So, was I. It was early morning and I was about to catch the bus for school. He knew I'd seen him. He was so close. I could see his little heart pounding in his chest. His nose was twitching and trying to smell me. The wind was the other way however.

Always lots to wander about...:)

Topal

[rosada]

37.6
His work commands respect.
In the end good fortune comes.

[charly]

... I could see his little heart pounding in his chest...

Topal:

Beautiful image the yours.

I don't trust in H.37 being about fathers and discipline...

I believe that it is about HOME, say, about the place for love, the «little heart» where you can return like to a sanctuary.

A confortable place where women and children can play their games and where to laugh is allowed. A good place for a hare too.


She was -how to say it?-
all my world then,
when in the home burned
only words of love..

Ella, com us ho podré dir,
era tot el meu món llavors
quan en la llar cremàven
només paraules d'amor...
J.M.Serrat: Paraules d'amor. 1968
See: http://www.trovadores.net/nc.php?NM=2063



Home, a place for pronouncing only words of love. Maybe a dream of poets, but I prefer so.

Yours,


Charly

[charly]

...
The line is correct, strong, central; hence the image of a king...

Rosada:

Even kings have a home:

http://www.studiolum.com/wang/img/sentencias-550.jpg


The melancholy of the last hours of the year that passes away fits well to this Spanish leaflet which spread in a large number of versions in the age of Renaissance. In the spirit of the best tradition of Cervantes, this little memento develops both a full image and a criticism of the society, while with the example of Christ it also incites to a Stoic endurance of the same society, and finally in the last line it offers the necessary perspective. A perfectly polished little gem, in ten lines the whole universe.

SENTENCES
worthy of knowing.

THE POPE SAYS: …… I am the head of all.
THE KING SAYS: …… I obey the Pope.
THE KNIGHT SAYS: …… I serve these two.
THE MERCHANT SAYS: …… I cheat these three.
THE LAWYER SAYS: …… I confuse these four.
THE PLOUGHMAN SAYS: …… I feed these five.
THE DOCTOR SAYS: …… I kill these six.
THE CONFESSOR SAYS: …… I absolve these seven.
CHRIST SAYS: …… I suffer these eight.
THE DEATH SAYS: …… I take them all away.


From: http://www.emblematica.com/blog/studiolum.html


Yours,

Charly

[charly]

37.6
His work commands respect.
In the end good fortune comes.
Rosada:

Why HIS? Maybe women work is not respectable?

The chinese text only says:

有you3: to have / there is / there are /
孚fu2: trust / [maybe also captive, capture, catch...]
威wei1: power / might / prestige /
如ru2: as (if) / such as / ...-like /

終zhong1: end / finish /
吉ji2: lucky /

The first sentence is conflictive.

A traditional translation could be:

Have a powerful faith [or trust].

A modernist translation could be:

To have captives is like to hurt women, always ends luckily.

Wei-ru is close to power-like or authority-lke → powerful, authoritarian, but the character wei has two components, a WOMAN inside and HURT WHIT A LANCE around.

Maybe it's warning us against authoritarian attitudes.

To vaccinate against this visus see:

A World Without Fathers or Husbands:

Legend has it that there was once a beautiful land in China called Li Chang, where lovers never married. They changed partners when they wanted to. But a cruel Chinese emperor changed all that and forbade these relationships. Arranged marriages became the norm and there were many lovers’ suicides.

In this fascinating documentary filmed in Mosuo Province near the Tibetan border, we learn about a matriarchal society that seems to echo many aspects of the legendary Li Chang. There are no fathers, husbands or marriages in Mosuo society. Uncles take care of their sisters’ children and act as the fathers of these children. Brothers and sisters live together all their lives in their mothers’ homes.

The women do all the work, including physical labor and are the bread-winners in their families. They are expected to establish harmonious households. Women are usually courted by men from miles away, who come for conjugal "visits."

from: http://www.filmakers.com/indivs/world_without_fathers.htm


... (to be continued) ...

Yours,

Charly