38.K'uei / Opposition [Archive]

dobro

February 13th, 2008, 03:19 AM

Anyway, there's one aspect of that picture that I think is really 38: polarization rather than conflict. Notice how they're facing opposite directions? Rather than facing each other and going at each other, they're facing opposite directions. But for me, that's only half the story of 38. For me, 38 means pulling in opposite directions, wanting different directions (not the stubborn standing there, like in the picture - that's what I think the picture didn't get exactly right. For me, 38 doesn't (necessarily) mean anger, and it certainly doesn't need to involve stubbornness. It just means two forces are:

a operating in the situation

b pulling in opposite directions

There doesn't have to to any emotional disturbance, in other words. It can be as simple as two very balanced people with rather different agendas.

trojan

February 13th, 2008, 03:28 AM

There doesn't have to to any emotional disturbance, in other words. It can be as simple as two very balanced people with rather different agendas.

I agree though i think we often assume people share our agenda when they don't which leads to misunderstanding and so sometimes upset. 38 often seems to come up as a warning against misunderstanding i find.

That picture cries out for a caption of some kind lol

dobro

February 13th, 2008, 04:44 AM

That picture cries out for a caption of some kind lol

"You're supposed to make me happy."

stewlsa

February 13th, 2008, 09:15 AM

She is facing the bed and he is facing the table. Perhaps its one of work versus pleasure.

proserpine

February 13th, 2008, 10:46 AM

I agree that #38 isn't about arguing or anger necessarily.However--Opposition, one of #38's typical names, is usually some form of anger, in truth.When someone says she's being oppositional or that someone else is, that's usually what they mean.
For myself, I have usually taken this Hexagram to mean that either inside myself or within another person, or organization, there are two opposite ways of thinking or doing things going on.
Plus, the eldest daughter is not there--so, we have two younger not- quite-as -capable people making decisions, and not agreeing nor having a higher purpose to turn to to help them resolve the stand-off.

sparhawk

February 13th, 2008, 02:27 PM

She is facing the bed and he is facing the table. Perhaps its one of work versus pleasure.

Work?? What work? Food!! He's hungry! :D

rosada

February 13th, 2008, 03:41 PM

The picture seems to be of a husband and wife at odds with the implication that they should be united. I don't think this is what 38. is about. 37. Family was all about the Father and Mother issues. Now we've moved passed that. Now we're dealing with the children and how they create themselves within the context of the family where the world may see them as all one, but each child wants to see themselves as different, unique, separate. Often times these differances are defined in terms that imply opposites. We say one daughter is "The smart one," which of course implies the other is not so smart. (grrr)

If we continue with the idea that 37.Family also discribed the child growing in the womb then perhaps 38 can be seen as the stage where the new soul can be recognized even while the fetus is still in the mother.

charly

February 13th, 2008, 04:43 PM

Work?? What work? Food!! He's hungry! :D
Luis:

There is no food in the table, it's no time of eating.
Maybe they are waiting that the night arrives.
Nobody seems to be very happy, but remember:

outer look is middle daughter → War!
inner look is younger daughter → Joy!

outer respectable, almost severe
inner looking for pleasure

Maybe at the evening the man will arrive, maybe not.

I believe that H.38 睽kui2 is not about divergences but about encounters, maybe strange encounters.

睽 ...
Phonetic: 癸 gui3 Signific: 目 mu4 eye
Etymology: Phonetic Signific, related to the eye 目 - strange to see
...
English Senses For: kui2
separated / alternate 暌 / in opposition / to squint / to stare at / unusual / strange

[One of the bronze characters:]
http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterImages/Bronze/B00000/b05000/b05029.gif

From Sears: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=+%E7%9D%BD&submitButton1=Etymology

Modern character has three components:

at the left EYE: to see, to look, to meet
up to the right: FOOTSTEPS: to make a path?, to advance?, to behave?
down to the right: SKY/HEAVEN: ancestors?, spirits?, fate?

See how to climb to the sky.
See how to ascend to the heaven.
See how to surpass your ancestors.

Maybe little matters but strange indeed.

Yours,

Charly

maremaria

February 13th, 2008, 04:45 PM

What you said Rosada , about children , it reminds me my two little nieces.(6 and 8) They are SO different personalities. Sometimes they look like the couple in Luis’s picture. Crossing their arms across their chest , turn their back to each other and stay stand still .They put a barrier between them and nothing is “moving”. Stubbornness in excess situation.
But the other times, when they combine their forces, they can make miracles . It so beautiful to see them learning from each other and accomplish things that they could done alone. The one is very social, the other is too shy. The shy one learns from the social one how to approach new people. There are so many things they can learn from each other but this can be accomplished only if they accept their difference. Small ones or big ones.

Having to cooperate with people thinking , acting, living in the opposite side from us is not always a bad situation. If we are not afraid that our individuality threaten by the other maybe there is a gain for us being there.

Maria

charly

February 13th, 2008, 04:58 PM

... We say one daughter is "The smart one," which of course implies the other is not so smart. (grrr)...
Rosada:

Maybe daughters (or sisters) are symbols of the soul, all we have three souls, here there are two, the severe and the joyous. We are the smarter and the not so smart at the same time.

If we continue with the idea that 37.Family also discribed the child growing in the womb then perhaps 38 can be seen as the stage where the new soul can be recognized even while the fetus is still in the mother.

When they revolve inside the womb they can be recognized indeed.

Strange things happen after opposite persons encountered. A new life.

Yours,

Charly

charly

February 13th, 2008, 05:09 PM

... For myself, I have usually taken this Hexagram to mean that either inside myself or within another person, or organization, there are two opposite ways of thinking or doing things going on.
Plus, the eldest daughter is not there--so, we have two younger not- quite-as -capable people making decisions, and not agreeing nor having a higher purpose to turn to to help them resolve the stand-off.
Proserpine:

Yes, the eldest is not here, it's no matter of authority.

But the younger girls are quite able to do things.

They are stand-by. It's the moment previous to the action, previous to fight each other or previous to collaborate. The moment previous to the encounter of two persons still strange one for another.

Maybe they are not upset but scared.

Yours,

Charly

charly

February 13th, 2008, 05:45 PM

... Having to cooperate with people thinking , acting, living in the opposite side from us is not always a bad situation. If we are not afraid that our individuality threaten by the other maybe there is a gain for us being there.
Maria

María:

If we are not affraid it could be good, I believe that this is the advice of H.38.

The results could be pretty good for being opposite persons. Before it we know almost nothing, after it we have learned so much that we are almost wise.

...We were strangers in the night
Up to the moment
When we said our first hello.
Little did we know...

...It turned out so right,
For strangers in the night...

1966 - «Strangers in the night» by Charles Singleton (1) & Eddie Snyder
From: http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Atrium/1995/aastrang.html

_____________________
(1) «Charles “Hoss” Singleton is best remembered for his lyrics to Strangers in the Night, sung by Frank Sinatra.»
http://www.jaxhistory.com/journal3.html

No bad indeed.

Yours,

Charly

hilary

February 13th, 2008, 09:44 PM

Thoughts from the character - eyes and an offering mat, the divination for the coming week -

Seeing differently... even when looking at the same things, seeing something else. And seeing the future, or a possible future, which is altogether different from the present you're looking at. Sometimes the one who sees differently is a visionary. (Or nutty as a fruitcake, as the normal people would say.)

In contrast with 37... well, the picture is the same, there is still a home defined by walls, the people inside still have common interests and a shared perspective. But this is the view from outside. The Sequence says that when the dao of the home is exhausted, one naturally turns away. It seems to be a natural human impulse:
"I know who I am because of where I fit in the group... but I also need to know who I am by how I'm different from the group."

As for the caption:
"From Mars. Definitely from Mars."

maremaria

February 14th, 2008, 04:13 PM

María:

.........
No bad indeed.

Yours,

Charly

Yes, but it takes two....:rolleyes:

Maria

charly

February 14th, 2008, 04:23 PM

Yes, but it takes two....:rolleyes:

Maria

Of course! :bows:

Charly

rosada

February 15th, 2008, 09:00 PM

THE JUDGEMENT

OFPPOSITION. In small matters, good fortune.

When people live in opposition and estrangement they cannot carry out a great undertaking in common; their points of view diverge too widely, for that would limit increase to producing gradual effects in small matters. Here success can still be expected, because the situation is such that opposition does not preclude all agreement.

In general, opposition appears as an obstruction, but when it represents polarity within a comprehensive whole, it has also its useful and important functions. The oppositions of heaven and earth, spirit and nature, man and women, when reconciled, bring about the creation and reproduction of life. In the world of visible things, the principle of opposites makes possible the differentiation by categories through which order is brought into the world.

rosada

February 16th, 2008, 03:40 AM

There is a lively discussion going on at Open Space in the Mayan thread. A perfect example I think of how to discuss Opposing points of view.

frank_r

February 16th, 2008, 10:47 PM

Opposition 38 is one of the 12 karmick hexagrams 38,54 and 40 belong to 63. When placed in the Chinese clock it is the time from 15.00 till 17.00 in the afternoon.
So in that way 38 has a connection with the meridian from the bladder.
the bladder has a connection with 12 and with 38.

In acupuncture the bladder is the end of the line, the leader. And then the leader who is looking from a distance because he/she cann overlook all the situation. the bladder belongs to the element of water. The Bladder knows where we can get our feet out of the water, where there is land, where we can stand on without getting cold and wet feet.

Where the heart should be empty, the bladder is full. it is like the room that is already decorated and already full with furniture. When a person knows how things work he/she cann be a good leader.The energy from the bladder gives protection. The bladder is the minister of our memories.
It is the most outside layer and is the first protection against intruders. Bladder energy protects us against ilnesses.

I always found it very interesting that the two female trigrams of fire and lake give us the first protection, the first outside border. When these two forces work together we can protoct ourselves very well. Then our yinner feelings give us information about what can harm us and what not.

in 38 you see that there cann be independancy if the two yin trigrams fire and metal, two forces with a lot of power, work together. In the description of these two trigrams we see several weapons, fire has lanses and waepons and lake has a connection with the idea of autumn, destruction and with this smashing and breaking apart.

So when these forces work together they give a strong feeling of protection, and with this we can be ourselves without losing our deeper inner nurturing yin nature. Then we know how to deal with opposition without losing ourselves.

rosada

February 16th, 2008, 11:35 PM

Interesting Frank! I was just recently comparing hexagram 1 and hex 2 and I think what you are saying about the yin energy being the line of first protection makes sence. Looking at hex.1.1
- Hidden dragon. Do not act -
as if it is discribing Yang holding back on putting any further warm energy into a situation and yet even this tensy withholding of energy shows up on the internal radar screen of super sensitive Yin, thus...
2.1
When there is hoarfrost underfoot,
solid ice is not far off.

That is, when the warm yang energy isn't there, yin starts to feel the draft immediately? When things aren't as they should be, you feel it in your gut before you see it on the outside?

rosada

February 18th, 2008, 06:56 PM

THE IMAGE

Above, fire; below, the lake:
The image of OPPOSITION.
Thus amid all fellowship
The superior man retains his individuality.

The two elements, fire and water, never mingle but even when in contact retain their own natures. So the cultured man is never led into baseness or vulgarity through intercourse or community of interests with persons of another sort, regardless of all commingling, he will preserve his individuality.

The images belonging to the trigrams, whose tendencies combat each other, create the conditions of opposition, while their attributes lead to its being overcome. The joyousness of Tui symbolizes fellowship; the clarity of Li symbolizes clearly recognizable individuality.

The reason why the two daughters tend to opposition is that the eldest, whose authority would maintain order, is absent.
-Wilhelm

rosada

February 19th, 2008, 06:28 PM

THE LINES

38.1
Remorse disappears.
If you lose your horse, do not run after it;
It will come back of its own accord.
When you see evil people,
Guard yourself against mistakes.

Even in times when oppositions prevail, mistakes can be avoided, so that remorse disappears. When opposition begins to manefest itself, a man must not try to bring about unity by force, for by so doing he would only bring about the contrary, just as a horse goes farther and farther away if one runs after it.
-Wilhelm

charly

February 19th, 2008, 11:05 PM

38.1
Remorse disappears.
If you lose your horse, do not run after it;

Rosada:

the chinese text

悔hui3 regret / remorse /
亡wang2 to die / to disappear /
REMORSE DISAPPEARS

喪sang4: lost / to lose /mourning /
馬ma3: horse / horse chess piece /
勿wu4: do not /
逐zhu2: to pursue / to chase /
自zi4: self / reflexive particle /
復fu4: to return / to come back /
LOST HORSE DO NOT PURSUE, HIMSELF WILL RETURN

見jian4: to see / to meet /
惡e4: evil / foreigner / e-man /strange /
人ren2: man / person / people /
MEET STRANGE PEOPLE

无wu2 without / not / no /
咎jiu4 blame / mistake /
NO BLAME

To let go the horse is like to meet with strangers, no the usual, but nothing wrong. Let we diverge from the standard point of view, the horse will bring our reward, the strangers maybe too.

See this folktale:

The Lost Horse

A man ... skilled in interpreting events. One day ... his horse ran away to the nomads across the border. Everyone tried to console him, but his father said, "What makes you so sure this isn't a blessing?"

Some months later his horse returned, bringing a splendid nomad stallion... [the story continues, see the source text]

塞翁失馬
(sai weng shi ma)
... "Old Sai loses a horse". Old Sai is the wise man in the fable. The expression is used to remind others to take life in stride because things aren't really as good (or bad) as they seem ...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0152010165.01.TZZZZZZZ.jpg

From: http://www.yellowbridge.com/literature/horse.php

Some remarks:

in the story the horse went to foreingers' lands → the strangers
in this story the horse is a mare (牝馬 pin ma like in H.2)
for a mare, a stallion is a blessing (maybe vice versa is too a blessing)
something to do with H.35 mating horses?
something to do with H.36/H.59 strong horse?

Among other things, H.38 is about horses and about strange thing that happened when horses disappears.

Yours,

Charly

frank_r

February 21st, 2008, 01:19 PM

That is, when the warm yang energy isn't there, yin starts to feel the draft immediately? When things aren't as they should be, you feel it in your gut before you see it on the outside?

Nicely Put Rosada, when this opposition of water (lake) and fire you get a sort of 64. But now the lake(metal) deep contracted feelings are in the interior.
So this way you get a connection with a very deep part of yourself.
38 has always been a hexagram that in a way provoked me to have a lot thoughts.
For me is it also a hexagram that plays a important role in choosing the right partner and friends.
Feeling this deeper energy is also never loose your own individuality not by confronting but by staying in your own energy.

rosada

February 21st, 2008, 02:59 PM

I wonder if 38's causing you to have lots of thoughts is connected with its nature of being Opposition? You find because your ideas are in opposition to others - as you have others to bounce your ideas off of - you become more aware of your singular point of view?

I am going to not have instant access to a computer for awhile - going South to be with Mom for a few weeks - so I hope those who feel to will post the lines here for us.

charly

February 21st, 2008, 03:40 PM

... I am going to not have instant access to a computer for awhile - going South to be with Mom for a few weeks - so I hope those who feel to will post the lines here for us.
Rosada:

Have a good time with your Mom! :)

Yours,

Charly

charly

February 21st, 2008, 04:44 PM

... I hope those who feel to will post the lines here for us.
38.2

Nine in the second place means:
One meets his lord in a narrow street.
No blame.

As a result of misunderstandings, it has become impossible for people who by nature belong together to meet in the correct way. This being so, an accidental meeting under informal circumstances may serve the purpose, provided there is an inner affinity between them.

-Wilhelm/Baynes

charly

February 25th, 2008, 04:41 PM

38.2 ... an accidental meeting under informal circumstances...
-Wilhelm/Baynes

The chinese text:

遇 yu4: meet with
主 zhu3: master / lord / owner / chief / leader
于 yu2: at / to
巷 xiang4: lane / alley / narrow street (1)
无 wu2: not / no / without
咎 jiu4: blame / wrong / mistake

MEETING MASTER AT NARROW STREET. NO BLAME.

Masters are always masters no matters the circumstance. Never is wrong to meet with them. But why «no blame» ?

Think that we are recruits wandering by a narrow street maybe at the evening in a strange town far from home.

Character 主 is Master / Lord / Leader but it means a light, a lamp, maybe an euphemism for red lantern:

... oil lamp made of clay 土 which the "leader" holds...a master / a leader / a chief / a host...
from: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E4%B8%BB&submitButton1=Etymology

Say we are going by the red lanterns narrow street, the we see our General coming toward us. What can we do? Impossible to retreat, inevitable to meet with him face to face.

But what are we doing at the narrow street? What is the Chief doing at the narrow street?

Nothing of our own fault, maybe wrong, but because of the human nature «impossible ... to meet in the correct way».

Difficult circumstances.

Yours,

Charly

______________________
(1) From Sears it's also interesting the «lane» character: «巷 ... the thing in the city 卩邑 which all people 共 use». He says «roads» but we can take it as a riddle.

ravenstar

February 27th, 2008, 12:48 AM

38.2

Nine in the second place means:
One meets his lord in a narrow street.
No blame.

As a result of misunderstandings, it has become impossible for people who by nature belong together to meet in the correct way. This being so, an accidental meeting under informal circumstances may serve the purpose, provided there is an inner affinity between them.

-Wilhelm/Baynes

Hmm in regard to above statement, thought I'd share this....

"Psychosis is a state of absolute narcissism, one in wich the person has broken all conection with reality outside, and has made his own person the substitute for reality. He is entirely filled with himself, he has become "god and the world" to himself. It is precisely this insight by which Freud for the first time opened the way to the dynamic understanding of the nature of psychosis."

Erich Fromm: The Heart of Man

It just seems to fit so well. :)

ravenstar

trojan

February 27th, 2008, 12:51 AM

:confused: I'm not at all clear what psychosis has to do with 38.2 ? Why do you think it fits ?

ravenstar

February 27th, 2008, 12:53 AM

topal

February 27th, 2008, 04:59 PM

Hmm in regard to above statement, thought I'd share this....

"Psychosis is a state of absolute narcissism, one in wich the person has broken all conection with reality outside, and has made his own person the substitute for reality. He is entirely filled with himself, he has become "god and the world" to himself. It is precisely this insight by which Freud for the first time opened the way to the dynamic understanding of the nature of psychosis."

Erich Fromm: The Heart of Man

It just seems to fit so well. :)

ravenstar

A true narcissist is absolutely aware of what is false and what is true but he chooses to reside in the fantasy world of self aggrandizement. He is in control of his/her behaviour and aware of the process of augmenting his fake self. That is not psychosis. Clinical depression can cause psychotic breaks as can drug withdrawal. It can also stem from schizophrenia. It's a gross simplification to immediately equate psychosis with narcissism. Fromm wrote some great stuff but he was way off on that one, taking into account the quote might be out of context. But then I don't subscribe to most of Freud's psychoanalytical stuff either.

Sorry, just had to jump in there on that one! Carry on. :D

(Don't see anything narcissistic about 38.2 either but I'm open to persuasion! :p)

Topal

trojan

February 27th, 2008, 07:28 PM

Yeah what Topal said. Ravenstar I still don't see what 38 has to do with psychosis or narcissism ?

charly

February 27th, 2008, 09:02 PM

Hmm in regard to above statement ... ...Psychosis is a state of absolute narcissism ... Freud for the first time opened the way to the dynamic understanding of the nature of psychosis."
Erich Fromm: The Heart of Man
It just seems to fit so well. :)
ravenstar

Ravenstar:

I don't undestand too well:

what statemen?, maybe if you quoted it...
psychosis = narcissism?, most people thinks so but maybe false (I believe).
Freud opened...? But meanwhile Jung did work with psychotics Freud didn't!

I respect Fromm, but...

Maybe you want to say that Wilhelm or Baynes or both were psychotics?
That the statemen (what statement?) is not intelligent or maybe not intelligible?

Fromm has write something about dreams that he called «the forgotten language».
I belive that the YI is written in a forgotten language, we can intent to decipher it like a dream. Maybe the results had some oniric look...

Might you explain yourself better?

Yours,

Charly

charly

February 27th, 2008, 09:50 PM

... (Don't see anything narcissistic about 38.2 either but I'm open to persuasion! :p)
Topal

Topal:

Wanderers must be very much cautious when they are far from home. They are open minded persons.

I believe that there are some possibilities for seeing narcissism in 38.2 but maybe not psychotism.

Yours,

Charly

topal

February 27th, 2008, 10:54 PM

Topal:
Wanderers must be very much cautious when they are far from home. They are open minded persons.
I believe that there are some possibilities for seeing narcissism in 38.2 but maybe not psychotism.

Open-mindedness or lack of open-mindedness is irrelevant here Charly. (On this specific point)

And my point was primarily on definitions given of a mental illness which I considered wrong. The line interpretations secondary.

However, I'll repeat:

"Don't see anything narcissistic about 38.2 either but I'm open to persuasion!"

Meaning I don't personally see anything narcissistic in that line. Being "open to persuasion" means I wouldn't discount the possibility.

Topal

martin

February 27th, 2008, 11:06 PM

I think hexagram 38 could possibly indicate autistic or schizoid tendencies, but not necessarily so of course.

trojan

February 29th, 2008, 03:32 PM

Topal:

Wanderers must be very much cautious when they are far from home. They are open minded persons.

Yours,

Charly

Yes but not so open minded their brains fall out. :mischief:

meng

February 29th, 2008, 04:13 PM

Yes but not so open minded their brains fall out. :mischief:

That's funny, I heard (read) you saying this in my head about an hour and a half ago while I was only half awake, as you once said it about me too. In my mind I replied: having an open mind doesn't mean agreeing with everything you see and hear, it just means not disagreeing with every idea you haven't considered.

trojan

February 29th, 2008, 04:56 PM

That's funny, I heard (read) you saying this in my head about an hour and a half ago while I was only half awake, as you once said it about me too. In my mind I replied: having an open mind doesn't mean agreeing with everything you see and hear, it just means not disagreeing with every idea you haven't considered.

You mean you were hanging out in the clarity astral cafe too :eek: Its not my saying someone else said it here once and i thought it was funny.

Anyhow noone did disagree with Ravenstar they simply asked what she meant - and then Charlie makes out Topal is being closed minded which he isn't hes simply asking and so am i, where the connection is. We could have just sat quietly and been baffled but hey what the hells a forum for ? Dare one not ask for fear of admonishment of being narrow minded ?

meng

February 29th, 2008, 05:06 PM

You mean you were hanging out in the clarity astral cafe too :eek: Its not my saying someone else said it here once and i thought it was funny.

Too funny!

Anyhow noone did disagree with Ravenstar they simply asked what she meant[/U] - and then Charlie makes out Topal is being closed minded which he isn't hes simply asking and so am i, where the connection is. We could have just sat quietly and been baffled but hey what the hells a forum for ? Dare one not ask for fear of admonishment of being narrow minded ?

I hadn't even read this thread at all until I posted that, and I posted only because your comment struck me as being funny, that it happened in real time as well as in my head. Actually, it probably did happen at the exact time you posted. I lost count of how long the semiconscious twilight lasted. It was the time of morning when your brains have mostly fallen out. :eek:

trojan

February 29th, 2008, 05:24 PM

I think people sometimes or often occupy the same bandwidth so to speak - we think we are sitting alone in our chairs etc but our thought speeds must connect up somewhere in the ether or maybe right here.

maremaria

February 29th, 2008, 05:40 PM

topal

February 29th, 2008, 06:20 PM

I guess that ravenstar mentioned all this about narcissism, because such a person is SOOOOO in love with himself that lacks the ability to make any healthy contact with others. Everyone , imo, has a Narcissus person which is healthy. But when that trait is in extreme, it becomes a disorder then it’s a problem. Sometimes narcissistic behavior hides insecurities. His/her self worth is threatened from other. Accepting that one has not a valid/correct/ or whatever idea would be devastated. A narcissistic behavior works like a defense mechanism to protect one his/hers own individuality.

Good summary Maria.

Talking of Narcissism I'm presently listening to Marvin Gaye's "Here, My Dear" album. Now he's an an example of pathological narcissist par excellence! But what a voice...:bows:

I guess we should get back to line 38.2 otherwise Rosada will wonder what we've been doing while she's been away... :D

38.2 for me has always come in times of isolation and confusion. Recently, I often feel very lonely even when I'm out with friends. 38 has come up quite a bit in this regard and line 2 seems to indicate this process of finding your own way or finding that inner Master. It can be something external of course.

I think it links up with this aspect of being open to the unexpected and coming across one's teacher in life when you least expect it and this will propel your forward out of the period of isolation and opposition. For me 38 is a good hex in that it "forces" one back on oneself in order to address things. It requires will, patience and the 21 timing to transit out of that cycle. If we take note and listen to the teaching in whatever form it takes, then we can build up the energy to bite through the opposition. So, line 2 has always been quite an encouraging pat on the back. "Life's a piece of crap at the moment but you know you gonna learn something fi you can trace where are those negative thoughts are coming from"... and once you do it usually transforms into something else. At least, that's what seems to happen. Although I think I'm in a 38 year actually....:rolleyes:

Michael Graeme's take on 38.2:

2. Here we seem uncertain of the way, or we are tempted to give up on what we know to be right simply because things are not moving fast enough. If we can recognise such feelings inside of ourselves this should be sufficient warning that we need to watch our direction. If we react correctly to the manifestation of such negative emotions, they can be helpful in keeping us on course.

Topal

trojan

February 29th, 2008, 07:36 PM

I associate 38.2 with a sense of awkwardness - being alone with someone in a weird kind of way - like an accidental intimacy or an unavoidable intimacy. Hmm I think thats where the 'narrow lane' comes in - if you bump into a friend or ex friend in a narrow lane how can you avoid them - you have to speak. So in 38.2 theres often a too close for comfort feel. Last time i had this I didn't bump into someone exactly but had to spend time alone with them due to circumstance - and what occured in that time seemed to be significant.

If no other is involved perhaps it can mean you are dropped in to a circumstance where you have to face up to something you didn't exactly see coming.

Perhaps in 38.2 opposing elements come together thats where the awkwardness comes in - there seems to be no common ground but there is something important in the meeting. Fan yao 21.2 hmm... something so in your face you can't see it. Anyhow in 38.2 you are bought face to face with something - its a line i feel slight trepidation on receiving - and go out wearing a balaclava, lol

maremaria

February 29th, 2008, 09:16 PM

charly

February 29th, 2008, 09:48 PM

Yes but not so open minded their brains fall out. :mischief:

Troyan:

Wanderers must be open minded when far from home for not losing the head, which, as everybody knows is a very convenient container for the brain.

Yours,

Charly

charly

February 29th, 2008, 09:51 PM

... it just means not disagreeing with every idea you haven't considered.
Meng:

Indeed. And consider at least some new ideas from time to time.

Charly

trojan

February 29th, 2008, 10:22 PM

martin

February 29th, 2008, 10:24 PM

Anyone, has an idea what that contradiction between lord and narrow street could mean ?

My cow Bella has some experience with this line. She received it in a time when she didn't have much freedom. There was not much choice, a lack of options.
Her life path was narrow, her meadow small.
And it didn't feel good at all, with so much greener grass outside the fence. Moo!

But the line said that she would meet her 'lord' in that situation. What did that mean?
I told her that it probably meant that she would meet her inner self. "My what? :eek:" she said.
I was wrong though, things turned out quite differently. She finally met Harry, the bull next door!

Was the meeting unavoidable, likeTrojan says? Oh yes, even more than that, it was predestined!
Bella and Harry are twin souls! :hug:

Moo!

trojan

February 29th, 2008, 10:33 PM

Well I'm sure shes glad she met Harry rather than her Inner Self :rofl:

charly

February 29th, 2008, 10:45 PM

“One meets his lord in a narrow street.”
I can’t understand that line. The lord and the narrow street. What purpose serves that contradiction. A narrow street is not a common place you can meet a “lord”. Its not “normal” If 21.2 talks about going deeper, or further than the usual what is the advise of that line ?
Expect the unexpected ? Look for a solution to places are not that usual ? ...
Anyone, has an idea what that contradiction between lord and narrow street could mean ?
Maria

María:

The chinese character translated LORD by W/B depicts an OIL LAMP → A LIGHT THAT LEAD US. It could be translated as Lord, usual translations are also Master, Chief, but I believe that we must retain the image of the leading lamp.

The shape of the character is very similar to the character for KING with a little stroke atop, but the original shape is not that of the character for KING.

There is a difference, an opposition:

Wang (King) means a ruler, political authority and power.
Zhu (Leader, etc.) means a counsellor, personal prestige and guidance → Charismatic.

MEET [YOUR] MASTER AT [THE] NARROW-STREET
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOOK FOR GUIDANCE AT THE NARROW STREET

Seek for the person (or things, or signs) that goes to lead you in modest contexts or in whatever context you are.

Don't look for guidance at the royal court, don't require excellence, learn to use what you have at hand.

Another alternative could be to read Zhu as lamp / lantern → lights as signs for guidance.

FIND LANTERNS AT THE NARROW STREET.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
SEEK SIGNS-FOR-GUIDANCE AT THE NARROW STREET

The opposition between KING and LEADER, between POWER and GUIDANCE goes with another opposition between contexts:

Narrow-Lane: uneasy ways, town suburbs, places allowed for you but where authorities cann't control you nor protect you, your own path.

Wide-Access: very important places, royal courts, owned by high rank authorities, maybe forbidden for you.

Beware of royal courts, beware of kings, I believe is a good advice in a handbook for diviners because diviners were not always kings.

Unpopularity of kings among chinese people is yet present in the Book of Songs.

From another cultural context but also BRONZE AGE:

IL.1.223
Πηλεΐδης δ' ἐξαῦτις ἀταρτηροῖς ἐπέεσσιν
But Peleus' son once again in words of derision

Ἀτρεΐδην προσέειπε, καὶ οὔ πω λῆγε χόλοιο:
spoke to Atreides, and did not yet let go of his anger:

οἰνοβαρές, κυνὸς [ὄμματ' ἔχων, κραδίην δ' ἐλάφοιο,
'You wine sack, with a dog's eyes, with a deer's heart. Never

οὔτέ ποτ' ἐς πόλεμον ἅμα λαῷ θωρηχθῆναι39]
once have you taken courage in your heart to arm with your people

οὔτε λόχονδ' ἰέναι σὺν [ἀριστήεσσιν Ἀχαιῶν
for battle, or go into ambuscade with the best of the Achaians.

[τέτληκας θυμῷ: τὸ δέ τοι κὴρ εἴδεται εἶναι.
No, for in such things you see death. Far better to your mind

ἦ πολὺ λώϊόν ἐστι κατὰ στρατὸν εὐρὺν Ἀχαιῶν
is it, all along the widespread host of the Achaians

δῶρ' ἀποαιρεῖσθαι ὅς τις σέθεν ἀντίον εἴπῃ:
to take away the gifts of any man who speaks up against you.

δημοβόρος βασιλεὺς ἐπεὶ οὐτιδανοῖσιν ἀνάσσεις:
King who feed on your people, since you rule nonentities;

ἦ γὰρ ἂν Ἀτρεΐδη νῦν ὕστατα λωβήσαιο.
otherwise, son of Atreus, this were your last outrage.

The Iliad, from:
http://www.library.northwestern.edu/homer/html/application.html

Drunk, greedy, coward ... Not always the kings are loved.

Yours,

Charly

martin

February 29th, 2008, 10:52 PM

Well I'm sure shes glad she met Harry rather than her Inner Self :rofl:

In a way she did, but no use telling her :rofl:

charly

February 29th, 2008, 10:53 PM

... Bella and Harry are twin souls! :hug:
Moo!
Martin:

What happened with Horace?
http://www.martello.it/comics/eta_oro/orazio/orazio4.gif

Charly

maremaria

February 29th, 2008, 11:08 PM

My cow Bella has some experience with this line.

Well, in few months I'll be in Holland. If Bella has some free time I'll like to ask her about that line . Of course, if she has not other plans with Harry !!!:D

martin

February 29th, 2008, 11:08 PM

martin

February 29th, 2008, 11:17 PM

Well, in few months I'll be in Holland. If Bella has some free time I'll like to ask her about that line . Of course, if she has not other plans with Harry !!!:D

:rofl:
Guess what, they are delighted, and they are studying Greek already!
"Moo delta moo kalinigta moo ευχαριστώ moooooooo" :D

maremaria

February 29th, 2008, 11:24 PM

:rofl:
Guess what, they are delighted, and they are studying Greek already!
"Moo delta moo kalinigta moo ευχαριστώ moooooooo" :D

Awww. Tell them not to worry. English is fine. They speak English don't they. :p

martin

February 29th, 2008, 11:29 PM

Martin:
What happened with Horace?

http://www.emaxx.nl/images/cow_wallpaper.JPG

Horace? Who is Horace?! :mischief:

martin

February 29th, 2008, 11:32 PM

Awww. Tell them not to worry. English is fine. They speak English don't they. :p

Bella: yesh, a tini lytle bite :)
Harry: off causse whe doo :)

topal

February 29th, 2008, 11:46 PM

Bella: yesh, a tini lytle bite :)
Harry: off causse whe doo :)

Bella has obviously been reading the Cow Te Ching (http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/cowching.html)

:D

Topal

martin

March 1st, 2008, 12:00 AM

Lol! I will send that to a few female friends.
If you don't hear from me anymore then you know why. :D

meng

March 1st, 2008, 12:04 AM

maremaria

March 1st, 2008, 12:06 AM

:rofl:

Martin, Thanks for the laugh !!!

Charly, I liked the leading lamp and the narrow-path as ones own path.

Martin or Bella???

I was thinking more about this 'narrow street'. Can it in some cases indicate fate or something like that, a predestined course?
Does the 'life path' become narrow with a purpose? (if you had more choice you could easily miss the 'lord')

own path, fate, predestined course. Starts making a sence.

Thanks

maremaria

March 1st, 2008, 12:27 AM

I associate the master in the alley as an unplanned synchronicity, a non-accidental accident, bumping into my life coach just when I needed him/her most: during a time when I am opposing or being opposed by someone or something.. chuckles.. including myself. It might even be the master I'm opposing. At any rate, there's no blame in it, and two heads are better than one.

I like that !!! It makes sense. I think had such a moment in my recent past.

But could you explain what do you mean by "It might even be the master I'm opposing' there is something there that might be relevant with a situation between me and a "master".

Maria

meng

March 1st, 2008, 01:56 AM

I like that !!! It makes sense. I think had such a moment in my recent past.

But could you explain what do you mean by "It might even be the master I'm opposing' there is something there that might be relevant with a situation between me and a "master".

Maria

I just mean that I may be opposing the very one (inside me or outside) that can help me; and if not him directly then his position on a matter. When my thinkin' is stinkin', it's not the master's fault.

maremaria

March 1st, 2008, 10:35 AM

I just mean that I may be opposing the very one (inside me or outside) that can help me; and if not him directly then his position on a matter. When my thinkin' is stinkin', it's not the master's fault.

Thanks :)

dobro

March 1st, 2008, 08:18 PM

I was thinking more about this 'narrow street'. Can it in some cases indicate fate or something like that, a predestined course?
Does the 'life path' become narrow with a purpose? (if you had more choice you could easily miss the 'lord')

The narrow street is parallel to a train track, with this difference: whereas the train track doesn't deviate left or right from the track (when you dream of being on a train, it's usually because something in your life is 'on track', not deviating from the designated path), the narrow street is that PLUS confined, claustrophobic, and therefore anxious. I remember Jung talking about dream imagery that has this 'narrow street' element - it's an anxious passageway to a new situation. Like being born, I suppose, which some people report as a high-pressure situation. It images a passage you have to go through, with no options to vary your course, with all the pressure and anxiety that carries. Meeting your master in a narrow street means it can't be avoided. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Time to face the higher self.

And why is this in the 'polarity' hexagram? Cuz while you're going through that passage with no choice, another part of you would like more freedom. "I gotta go through this; I wish I was somewhere else."

charly

March 3rd, 2008, 07:55 PM

...Charly, I liked the leading lamp and the narrow-path as ones own path...
Maria:

Narrow streets are good refuge for oppositors. See two alleys from San Francisco chinatown:

Spofford Alley/New Spanish Alley (新呂宋巷).
This is where Sun Yat Sen had his secret headquarters.

St. Louis Place (圣路易巷: Sing3 Lou6-ji6 Hong6) (1)
is another alley with a history of disreputable businesses.

http://www.pandagator.info/images/SanFran/saint-louis-alley-x.jpg
from: http://www.pandagator.info/blog/?cat=14

Maybe we can translate 巷 as SECRET ACCESS, or the street of the secret accesses. Of course, a way for oppositors, persons that make their own paths, maybe persons that have their own ways for connecting masters, persons that have their own way of seeing things (2) .

Yours,

Charly
_________________

(1) 圣路易, nothing to do with the YI, only chinese transcription for Saint Louis.
(2) eachother has his own compass.

charly

March 3rd, 2008, 08:18 PM

... Horace? Who is Horace?! :mischief:
Martin:

When Bella was called Clarabelle Cow, his boyfriend was Horace Horsecollar. I wander what happened to him.

Charly

martin

March 3rd, 2008, 09:22 PM

Harry hopes it was something bad :D

charly

March 3rd, 2008, 09:32 PM

... Anyhow noone did disagree with Ravenstar they simply asked what she meant - and then Charlie makes out Topal is being closed minded which he isn't hes simply asking and so am i, where the connection is. We could have just sat quietly and been baffled but hey what the hells a forum for ? Dare one not ask for fear of admonishment of being narrow minded ?
Trojan:

I missed your post.

I'm affraid that I was misunderstood maybe due to my poor english. I never wanted to say that Topal was closed minded.

I want to say that wanderer people necessarily are cautious when far from home.

Far from my intention to admonish anybody, I hate admonishers. Everybody are allowed to ask. I'm myself all the day asking, many times without response.

My sincere apologies for whoever had felt offended.

Yours,

Charly

charly

March 3rd, 2008, 10:31 PM

trojan

March 3rd, 2008, 10:43 PM

Trojan:

I missed your post.

I'm affraid that I was misunderstood maybe due to my poor english. I never wanted to say that Topal was closed minded.

I want to say that wanderer people necessarily are cautious when far from home.

Far from my intention to admonish anybody, I hate admonishers. Everybody are allowed to ask. I'm myself all the day asking, many times without response.

My sincere apologies for whoever had felt offended.

Yours,

Charly

Hey no need to apologise Charly, I realised I probably had misunderstood you. I don't think you have offended anyone :)

trojan

March 3rd, 2008, 10:46 PM

Harry hopes it was something bad :D

:rofl: So Harrys the possessive type is he ?

sparhawk

March 4th, 2008, 05:02 PM

sparhawk

March 4th, 2008, 05:11 PM

BTW. there is an interesting discussion, here (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5305), about 天 vs 夭 in 38.3

charly

March 4th, 2008, 05:14 PM

Moooving along...

Six in the third place means:
One sees the wagon dragged back,
The oxen halted,
A man's hair and nose cut off.
Not a good beginning, but a good end.

六三見輿曳。其牛掣。其人天且劓。旡初有終。
liu4 san1 jian4 yu2 yi4 qi2 niu2 che4 qi2 ren2 tian1 qie3 yi4 wu2 chu1 you3 zhong1

Six in the third place means:
One sees the wagon dragged back,
The oxen halted,
A man's hair and nose cut off.
Not a good beginning, but a good end.

Often it seems tot a man as though everything were conspiring against him.
He sees himself checked and hindered in his progress, insulted and
dishonored. However, he must not let himself be misled; despite this
opposition, he must cleave to the man with whom he knows he belongs.
Thus, notwithstanding the bad beginning, the matter will end well.
Wilhelm/Baynes

charly

March 4th, 2008, 05:57 PM

...
六三見輿曳。其牛掣。其人天且劓。旡初有終。
liu4 san1 jian4 yu2 yi4 qi2 niu2 che4 qi2 ren2 tian1 qie3 yi4 wu2 chu1 you3 zhong1

[/INDENT]
Luis:

Who is the main actor in this scene? If the sentence is imperative, maybe the main actor are US, that receive the advise or the order: SEE THE WAGON DRAGED BACK..

Another main actor is the WAGON itself as a symbol of social status, political power, secular wealth, things happened to the wagon, oxen and drivers are secondary.

The scene is a NIGHTMARE, it's more important to see how could we get off that to know how we had got in.

But the WAGON is a carriage / a vehicle / a sedan chair the character depicts a chariot sourronded by fourth hands: a SEDAN CHAIR, a PALANQUIN, what are the oxen doing here?

Maybe the lost of the heavenly mandate for the person that goes on the wagon?

The chinese words with some english equivalences, in capital letters Wilhelm/Baynes options:

見jian4: to see / to meet // ONE SEES
輿yu2: carriage / sedan chair / world // THE WAGON
曳yi4: drag // DRAGGED BACK
其qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it // THE
牛niu2: ox / cow / bull // OXEN
掣che4: pull / obstruct / draw // HALTED
其qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it // A
人ren2: man / person / people // MAN
天tian1: sky / heaven // HAIR
且qie3: further / moreover // AND
劓yi4: cut off the nose // NOSE CUT OFF

无 wu2 / without / not / no / avoid / NOT
初 chu1 / at first / (at the) beginning / first / junior / basic / / A GOOD BEGINING
有 you3 / to have / there is / there are / to exist / to be // BUT
終 zhong1 / end / finish // A GOOD END

Un abrazo,

Charly

charly

March 4th, 2008, 06:14 PM

六三見輿曳。其牛掣。其人天且劓。旡初有終。
liu4 san1 jian4 yu2 yi4 qi2 niu2 che4 qi2 ren2 tian1 qie3 yi4 wu2 chu1 you3 zhong1
[/INDENT]

Luis:

Maybe with another parsing the oniric subversion from the normal is highlighted:

見輿曳。see the carriage dragged.
其牛掣其人。 Its oxen pulling its man / driver.
天且劓。Heaven, moreover, cutting of his nose.
旡初有終。No begining, have end.

Yours,

Charly

sparhawk

March 5th, 2008, 01:47 AM

Hola Charly,

Who is the main actor in this scene? If the sentence is imperative, maybe the main actor are US, that receive the advise or the order: SEE THE WAGON DRAGED BACK..

Yes, that's what I think. It seems to be related in the first person.

Un abrazo,

sparhawk

March 5th, 2008, 02:00 AM

Luis:

Maybe with another parsing the oniric subversion from the normal is highlighted:

Well, we can play with the characters like a game of Scrabble, and it can be fun as I believe ALL the characters are important and full of meaning, but I don't feel qualified to parse the text in other ways that are not in the received version (Zhouyi zhe zhong 周易折中, 1715). The darn thing is complicated enough as it is... :D

Ask Dobro... :rofl:

Un abrazo,

charly

March 5th, 2008, 06:18 PM

Well, we can play with the characters like a game of Scrabble... but I don't feel qualified to parse the text in other ways that are not in the received version (Zhouyi zhe zhong 周易折中, 1715). The darn thing is complicated enough as it is... :D

Ask Dobro... :rofl:

Un abrazo,
Luis:

The scramble idea is maybe not so bad, but generally I prefer to leave each character in the place where it is.

About the parsing of the text, given that the punctuation marks didn't exist at ancient times I use to allow myself some freedom to slide one dot or two from time to time.

Will you go to call it libertinism?

... there are in pre-Han times no know form of punctuation which unambiguously indicated the end of a sentence. Even more that in the case of Classical Greek sentence boudaries could be left vague...

Joseph Needham: Science and Civilisation in China, p.174

- Que la he matado? That I have killed her?
- Todita! All she!
- Y cómo? And how?
- Recién con la balacera! Just, with the shooting!
- Recién con la balacera? Just with the shooting?
- Por unos tiritos! By some little shots!
- Mira qué floja! See you how she was weak!

(whit Babelfish help)

Les Luthiers: Serenata Mariachi
http://blog.netmdp.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=42

周易折中, 1715? What recent! Nearer to us than to the original text.

Could it be yet more complicated? You mean that Dobro goes to undestand me?

Un abrazo,

Charly

sparhawk

March 5th, 2008, 07:05 PM

About the parsing of the text, given that the punctuation marks didn't exist at ancient times I use to allow myself some freedom to slide one dot or two from time to time.

Will you go to call it libertinism?

周易折中, 1715? What recent! Nearer to us than to the original text.

Could it be yet more complicated? You mean that Dobro goes to undestand me?

Charly,

Let me put it this way: The Kangxi Emperor was a huge fan/student of the Yi. Furthermore, he had an army of experts, versed not only in the Yi but in ALL the Classics, in a time when Classical Chinese was still the written language of the land. (Today, very few native Chinese can even read Classical Chinese). They analyzed the text, up and down, left and right and even diagonally, and decided to place those little funny circles where they are in the text. I am very aware of the fact that ancient Chinese didn't have punctuation. For some strange reason, that seems like an open invitation for the rest of us to play 'place-the-period-dot-on-a-sentence' (ponerle la cola al burro) of the Yi text, however, not being myself versed in Chinese, left alone 'Classical Chinese', if I'm going to err, I rather err on the side of those that, at the time, were the experts of the land. That's why I said I didn't feel qualified to do otherwise or even presume I can do a better job than they did. So, I'll pay attention to the parsing in the received work I mentioned. But, that's me. Other can, and will, play as they wish... :D

And yes, Dobro is a parsing libertine... :rofl:

Un abrazo,

trojan

March 5th, 2008, 07:56 PM

(hmm your dragon got fat and lazy Luis, mellow though )

sparhawk

March 5th, 2008, 08:11 PM

(hmm your dragon got fat and lazy Luis, mellow though )

Sure, get closer... :D

charly

March 6th, 2008, 03:42 PM

... I'll pay attention to the parsing in the received work I mentioned. But, that's me. Other can, and will, play as they wish... And yes, Dobro is a parsing libertine ...

Luis:

The learned collective was so committed with centuries of confucian philosophy that although they didn't change the words, they could have put the dots according with their social, political and philosophical interests.

It was hard to change the words, the text was memorized by too much learned people. But the original text was not parsed, adding alternatives of reading to the polysemics of the words.

There was no single message, thus the text didn't need more accuracy than the provided by the use of parallellisms.

I encourage you to try alternative parsing and observe the results. Maybe this parser tool can be useful for the task:

http://www.restaurantsource.com/products/rs-dex-rus/RUS08051.jpg

«Blood will fall as rain»

Un abrazo,

Carlos

charly

March 6th, 2008, 05:05 PM

Moooving along...

Luis:

Please, analyze this:

見輿曳其牛掣其人。
See charriage pulling its ox, snatching its man.

Something like the apprentice of sorcerer, things get life, the customary order is subverted. the ox before the cart, the passenger kidnaped...

天且劓。
Heaven, moreove, nose cut-off.
... moreover, abandoned by the heavens
... moreover, heaven punished [him]
... moreover, heaven [has his] nose cut-off → has the face of Death (1)

:confused:

abrazo,

Charly
__________________

(1) «la Ñata» = The Death , «la quinta 'el Ñato» = Cementery

sparhawk

March 6th, 2008, 06:13 PM

The learned collective was so committed with centuries of confucian philosophy that although they didn't change the words, they could have put the dots according with their social, political and philosophical interests.

It was hard to change the words, the text was memorized by too much learned people. But the original text was not parsed, adding alternatives of reading to the polysemics of the words.

Carlos,

It really tickles me to death the ongoing effort of stripping Confucius and his school from the Yijing, like some kind of taint soiling the work. As if one should wash the mouth after uttering his name... As it is, the Yijing IS a Confucian Classic. The Zhouyi is another story. From whatever old extant exegesis we have available, that school has been commenting the Yi (Zhouyi) from a time earlier than the oldest version of the Yi found thus far (Mawangdui). There is no Yijing without the Confucian School. Furthermore, what we have received is the Yijing, not the Zhouyi proper, which remains a mystery other than a few quotes found in old history records like the Zuo Zhuan. We do have a proposed separation of the Zhouyi text, what it perhaps looked like, within the received YIJING itself, which comes from what classical school?? Yes, the Confucian School. So, if we follow that train of thought, how do we know the whole thing, all the text received and attributed to the original Zhouyi--and we are talking about the text here--, isn't a Confucian fabrication in its entirety? Can we trust them to tell us that the Tuan Ci and Yao Ci is the original Zhouyi part of the Yijing but distrust them in the parsing of the text?

So, my point is, dismissing the received parsing of the text because of the possibility of it being a biased pipe-dream of a bunch of Neo-Confucians under the orders of the Kangxi Emperor, is in itself a biased, non-objective view, in the opposite direction, of their work.

As I've said, or at least implied, I'm not a revisionist regarding the received Chinese text of the Yijing. And I'm not because if we are going to revise the text, then we have to revise the whole classic, not only the attributed Zhouyi part of it. At that point we may as well realize to be holding water in our hands as the reality of the Yijing itself will shift. Mind you, I'm the first one in line to bury my head in obscure books, searching for the historical origins of the text, however, at some point I realized that I had to separate the material studied from the received text as they are, although related, completely separate entities.

On the other hand, anyone is free to play with the text. Just don't expect serious arguments of interpretation based on the free-handling of it as it will be only a game... :D

http://www.yitoons.com/images/chinese-scrabble.jpg

Un abrazo,

dobro

March 6th, 2008, 11:24 PM

And yes, Dobro is a parsing libertine... :rofl:

Now, now, Sparhawk - you KNOW that the original Zhou oracle didn't have punctuation and you KNOW that the H-Y version is simply and only one version of how to do it. And you also KNOW that God gave us our brains in order that we use them. :pompom: Or is this becoming a religious discussion again?

I've got a lot of respect for the H-Y version, but I see no reason why I should believe they've got the parsing right when none of us on this board believe that *anybody* has the translation right. If there can be variations of translations, why not of parsing as well? Or should we follow the Confucian tradition no matter what our onboard intelligence tells us? :lalala:

charly

March 6th, 2008, 11:38 PM

... It really tickles me to death the ongoing effort of stripping Confucius and his school from the Yijing,...

Luis:

First the first: I'm not trying to purge Confucius from the Yijing. Maybe Confucius didn't like the YI, I don't see him as a diviner but a person prone to think about civil rights and duties. Neither the sort of persons that wrote the YI nor the sort of persons that used it.

Much of the things that later confucianist presented as universal principles were only contingent points of view, not valid for all the times, not valid for all the places, not valid for all the peoples. One of it, the place of women in society.

The Kangxi editors made a layered book. Any confucian wrote the book from the begining, any confucian pretend having done this. All of them presented the core text as a very earlier book.They never pretend to amend this book, only to comment it.

By way of interpretations and commentaries and, maybe, some changes of words, they got a message according whith their own opinions.

But nobody challenged the old book. We have the right to read this book, and to know what it says, not what we are told that it says.

...

Are you shure that the KangXi edition has all the little funny circles? If I remember well, I have seen bookprints from KangXi times without any punctuation mark. I'm not sure.

For moving a dot the sky doesn't go to fall over your head. Worse things has been made with the YI.

Un abrazo,

Charly

trojan

March 7th, 2008, 12:27 AM

So what is 38.3 all about then.

trojan

March 7th, 2008, 12:28 AM

or shall we just head on to 38.4

martin

March 7th, 2008, 01:26 AM

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 02:19 AM

Now, now, Sparhawk - you KNOW that the original Zhou oracle didn't have punctuation and you KNOW that the H-Y version is simply and only one version of how to do it. And you also KNOW that God gave us our brains in order that we use them. :pompom: Or is this becoming a religious discussion again?

For some odd reason, I still think the "libertine" adjective applies to you (in a good way, of course). I'll buy you a beer and bring some singles to spread some cheer around the floor... :rofl:

But see my reasoning above:

So, if we follow that train of thought, how do we know the whole thing, all the text received and attributed to the original Zhouyi--and we are talking about the text here--, isn't a Confucian fabrication in its entirety? Can we trust them to tell us that the Tuan Ci and Yao Ci is the original Zhouyi part of the Yijing but distrust them in the parsing of the text?

The H-Y is pretty much based on the Kangxi Edition (more a well researched compilation than an original work). This is the reason I went back to it and not to the mere H-Y.

Now, please tell me what Chinese text are you using, or used before finding the H-Y. The fact that ancient Classical Chinese didn't have punctuation doesn't mean the text had no defined structure and thus one is free to parse it any way one desires...

I'm not fan of James Legge's translation but what he wrote in his preface makes a lot of sense to me and should be a lesson for us, more than a hundred years later, trying to approach the text with a minimalist vision and thus risking missing the forest for the trees:

When I made my first translation of it in 1854, I endeavored to be as concise in my English as the original Chinese was. Much of what I wrote was made up, in consequence, of so many English words, with little or no mark of syntactical connexion. I followed in this the example of P. Regis and his coadjutors in their Latin version. But their version is all but unintelligible, and mine was not less so. How to surmount this difficulty occurred to me after I had found the clue to the interpretation; --in a fact which I had unconsciously acted on in all my translations of other classics, namely, that the written characters of the Chinese are not representations of words, but symbols of ideas, and that the combination of them in composition is not a representation of what the writer would say, but of what he thinks. It is vain therefore for a translator to attempt a literal version. When the symbolic characters have brought his mind en rapport with that of his author, he is free to render the ideas in his own or any other speech in the best manner that he can attain to. This is the rule which Mencius followed in interpreting the old poems of his country:--'We must try with our thoughts to meet the scope of a sentence, and then we shall apprehend it.' In the study of a Chinese classical book there is no so much an interpretation of the characters employed by the writer as a participation of his thoughts;-- there is the seeing of mind to mind

I've got a lot of respect for the H-Y version, but I see no reason why I should believe they've got the parsing right when none of us on this board believe that *anybody* has the translation right. If there can be variations of translations, why not of parsing as well?

Fair enough, but I don't believe that a lack of an "ideal and/or universal" translation is due to any issue of proper text structure or parsing but us not been able to properly wrap our minds around its real meaning in a digestible and communicable way for others to share alike. Furthermore, I would venture to share the private thought that the real reason to learn Chinese, prompted by a serious study of the Yi, is not for us to translate the text but to understand it, sans limitations, in its original form. Easier said that done, of course... :D

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 02:24 AM

If you want to know what the 'thing' really means, well, you can only discover that through experience with it.
Analyzing the Chinese text, although it might be fun, is not going to help beyond a certain point.

:)

I digress... I believe is the other way around: we can only go so far using translations... :)

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 02:37 AM

Charly,

The Kangxi editors made a layered book. Any confucian wrote the book from the begining, any confucian pretend having done this. All of them presented the core text as a very earlier book.They never pretend to amend this book, only to comment it.

How do you know this with any certainty?

But nobody challenged the old book. We have the right to read this book, and to know what it says, not what we are told that it says.

How do we know we are holding and unchallenged 'old book'?
...

Are you shure that the KangXi edition has all the little funny circles? If I remember well, I have seen bookprints from KangXi times without any punctuation mark. I'm not sure.

I have a copy of the Kangxi edition (a modern reprint of more than a thousand pages) and they even replaced the cute circles with 'commas and periods'... :eek: So, the parsing was done, as presented, both in the Kangxi Edition and, by default, in the H-Y.

For moving a dot the sky doesn't go to fall over your head. Worse things has been made with the YI.

That wasn't my argument, Charly... We can play all we want and move commas and periods around and have fun with it. What we should not do is to impart such games any sort of brainy authority for which we are not fully qualified to attest.

Un abrazo,

dobro

March 7th, 2008, 02:54 AM

For some odd reason, I still think the "libertine" adjective applies to you (in a good way, of course).

Actually I'm not so much a libertine as a knee-jerk rebel ('don't tell ME what to do').

I don't believe that a lack of an "ideal and/or universal" translation is due to any issue of proper text structure or parsing but us not been able to properly wrap our minds around its real meaning in a digestible and communicable way for others to share alike.

I agree. But I also think that if you can come up with good reasons and a tight argument for parsing it this way rather than that way, or translating a term this way rather than that way, that it should at least be considered as a possible way of viewing it, if not actually accepted. One reason I feel I have the legitimate right to alter 'standard' parsing if I can show that it fits and has real meaning is because of something Brad said once in answer to a question I put to him about parsing and punctuation - as I recall, he said something like 'there is no single definitive parsing of the original Zhou oracle'. (So you see, it's all Brad's fault. Take it up with him. :)) Now, I don't think that gives anybody the license to parse it however they want to. But if you can make a good case for parsing it differently than the H-Y version, then I think it should be taken seriously.

(Side note: I think that idea that occurred to me about Hex 2 is one of those 'good cases'. I think it hangs together well, and I think it makes more sense than the way it's parsed in the H-Y version. And if you want to return to that thread and discuss it like the gentlemen we are, I'll demonstrate a level of refinement and taste not often seen on this board.) :cool:

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 03:19 AM

if I can show that it fits and has real meaning is because of something Brad said once in answer to a question I put to him about parsing and punctuation - as I recall, he said something like 'there is no single definitive parsing of the original Zhou oracle'. (So you see, it's all Brad's fault. Take it up with him. :)) Now, I don't think that gives anybody the license to parse it however they want to. But if you can make a good case for parsing it differently than the H-Y version, then I think it should be taken seriously.

See, I also agree with what Brad said. I'm just breaking a lance for the judgment and vision of the Kangxi Emperor and his army of court diviners. My point being that I cannot presume, in all honesty, to know better than they did and accommodate things around so that the text makes more sense to me.

(Side note: I think that idea that occurred to me about Hex 2 is one of those 'good cases'. I think it hangs together well, and I think it makes more sense than the way it's parsed in the H-Y version. And if you want to return to that thread and discuss it like the gentlemen we are, I'll demonstrate a level of refinement and taste not often seen on this board.)

Sure, why not. Besides, you are too far away to slap you in the face with my steel gauntlet (or for you to insert a dirk between my ribs)... :rofl:

martin

March 7th, 2008, 08:57 AM

I digress... I believe is the other way around

Thought so. And I think your dragon also disagrees, so I have to be careful :D

hilary

March 7th, 2008, 12:34 PM

So what is 38.3 all about then.
Now that's a valiant post.

'Seeing the cart dragged back,
The oxen stopped
Your men shaved and their noses cut off
With no beginning, there is an end.'

(Or some other form of words to that effect... ;) )

Important word in this hexagram: Seeing. Or maybe 'See!', an imperative. Perhaps you're invited to envisage a future where this could happen, or see how it's happening already.

What's happening is literally that your progress is stopped and you're disgraced, criminalised, maybe because of what your associates have done. I remember one reading where that was a very precise description - though normally I'd expect it to describe a more general sense of being stopped and humiliated/disgraced/injured.

I normally find it easier to remember lines through their associations with the zhi gua. This one points to hexagram 14, which makes this unusually tricky. Still... I'd see it as having something great in mind - maybe a co-operative venture, in the spirit of 14, maybe something like the prince in 14.3. You are rich in resources and ideas (after all, you come from 37.4), and set out accordingly with your cart, oxen and men. Since you're in a time and place of 38, when small affairs do better (provoking less reaction from those who see differently from you), this does not get off to a good start. However, you can still carry it through.

Another memory-cue: this is the third line, so you are just setting out to travel from inside to outside. In a hexagram for seeing differently and divining for the coming week, naturally you should be imagining what you might encounter out there.

trojan

March 7th, 2008, 01:31 PM

Whatever the Chinese, Confucians or not, wrote about the hexagrams and lines, it's only their interpretation and their (necessarily imperfect) wording of the meaning of the hexagrams and lines.
So it's okay to try to discover what they actually wrote, but it's not holy bible, isn't it?

The word, the name, Chinese or English, is not the thing, the hexagram or the line.
If you want to know what the 'thing' really means, well, you can only discover that through experience with it.
Analyzing the Chinese text, although it might be fun, is not going to help beyond a certain point.

:)

Amen :bows: but i see to an extent Luis point you can only go so far with some translations too

If Rosada were here she might point out we have here (possibly) in the conversation between Luis and Martin, 38 exemplified. I have always seen this big split here between scholars who analyse words but never really want to say much about practical application of meaning, and non scholars who know nothing about Chinese but have alot to say about how they perceive meanings. I tend to feel us who have alot to say about meanings and don't know anything about Chinese are almost ;) looked down upon by the scholars though not in a nasty way, lol, more in a hexagram 10ish kind of way but also in a 38ish way. We are seeing things from a very different angle but dwell alongside one another more or less peacably because we don't actually cross paths much. So i can't argue much with Luis for example because I have to take his word on things I don't know much about -so i generally just talk to him about suspenders and so on. Thats really 38ish isn't it ?

Of course a few people do both things here, the scholarly bit and the practical applications like Hilary and others, but by and large there is a split isn't there ?

With Charlys unusual interpretive twists I just want to know has he applied these to his life or anyones life ? Like Martin said I think you can only travel so far with word play alone. Most long term users of the Yi have all sorts of memories, journals and records, whether formally recorded or not that have shown them how certain answers have played out in their lives. They may have been consulting for many many years. So when somone comes along and says actually 'a' doesn't mean 'a' it means 'b' because they have a chinese dictionary well it doesn't mean everything. I think its very interesting and we are very lucky to have the benefits of undertandings of those who have learned Chinese - but its strange it gets so polarised on these memorising threads. Its as if we talk at cross purposes - no not cross purposes - different agendas. Scholarly precision v how it feels to live it .

trojan

March 7th, 2008, 02:27 PM

Oh and thanks for sharing your ideas on 38.3 Hilary i thought there weren't going to be any. It looks painful somehow

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 03:51 PM

If Rosada were here she might point out we have here (possibly) in the conversation between Luis and Martin, 38 exemplified. I have always seen this big split here between scholars who analyse words but never really want to say much about practical application of meaning, and non scholars who know nothing about Chinese but have alot to say about how they perceive meanings. I tend to feel us who have alot to say about meanings and don't know anything about Chinese are almost ;) looked down upon by the scholars though not in a nasty way, lol, more in a hexagram 10ish kind of way but also in a 38ish way. We are seeing things from a very different angle but dwell alongside one another more or less peacably because we don't actually cross paths much. So i can't argue much with Luis for example because I have to take his word on things I don't know much about -so i generally just talk to him about suspenders and so on. Thats really 38ish isn't it ?

Of course a few people do both things here, the scholarly bit and the practical applications like Hilary and others, but by and large there is a split isn't there?

Oh my... Although flattering, please don't put the "scholar" hat on my head. I have no credentials other than what's available to all: books to read and form an educated opinion. As for Martin and me, we've only exchanged two posts here in a very civilized manner... :D I've been sparring with Charly for quite a few posts and then Dobro... (who remains as much a mystery to me as the first time I read his posts... :D)

I see no split here, otherwise, if I considered myself a "scholar", I would keep my peace and snicker privately at whatever crossed my screen as wrong or misguided. I believe I have a long record of messages saying, even when I occasionally disagree, that I want to get closer to others as opposed to distancing myself in an arrogant attitude.

But, you pose a interesting issue that deserves to be discussed: the number of interpretive opinions I, and others that share my "reading habits", may have to share in comparison to "non scholars who know nothing about Chinese but have alot to say about how they perceive meanings". (your words and "scholars" being a misnomer in the context of a public forum like this one, IMO)

My very personal opinion on this matter is that "perceived meaning" is like:
http://i.xanga.com/naughtyscorpian/dali02.jpg
and historical, philological, semantical (add appropriate prefix to more "-al's" here) meaning is more like:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/fd/Storck%2C_Four_Days_Battle.jpg

While "perceived meaning" can be very abstract and travel different paths in our minds, the other "meanings" can be very concrete and focused and disagreements in those areas are on more solid ground than the others.

I'm also of the opinion that, even though the push of "perceived meaning" and "interpretive opinion" discussions is to reach some kind "generic consensus" and "package" said consensus for others, perhaps newbies, to consume, and although I DO have lots of "interpretive opinions", I came to the conclusion, long ago, that context is everything. No matter how good we are in our efforts, our personal conclusions and interpretations are shifty, mutating beings that run through our fingers like water. Even in our own personal queries to the oracle we seem to avoid rigidity of opinion and "standard" interpretations, so, why impose rigidity on others when we shun it ourselves? So yes, I do have a tendency to keep those to myself, for the reasons I share here. However, that has nothing to do with my "reading habits" but being pragmatic on the issue of shared interpretations. I also believe the "use" of the Yi, as opposed to the background study of the wealth of material available about it, is a personal and private journey.

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 04:09 PM

BTW, Trojan, that may be your perception, but, personally, I've never looked down on anybody or even feel I have to. There are all kinds of areas of discussion regarding the Yi; that I prefer some and not others is no reflection of my knowledge (or lack thereof...) but a matter of personal taste and based on what I explained above... :)

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 04:29 PM

Important word in this hexagram: Seeing. Or maybe 'See!', an imperative. Perhaps you're invited to envisage a future where this could happen, or see how it's happening already.

What's happening is literally that your progress is stopped and you're disgraced, criminalised, maybe because of what your associates have done. I remember one reading where that was a very precise description - though normally I'd expect it to describe a more general sense of being stopped and humiliated/disgraced/injured.

I have to agree with most of it, generally speaking. Also, and the reason I pointed to the discussion between Bernie and Harmen the other day, we should consider the remote possibility of the character 夭 (http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/character-etymology.php?searchChinese=1&zi=%E5%A4%AD) being used instead of 天. I think the possibility adds some interesting dimensions to the reading of this line.

hilary

March 7th, 2008, 05:42 PM

context is everything. No matter how good we are in our efforts, our personal conclusions and interpretations are shifty, mutating beings that run through our fingers like water.
Absolutely. And that becomes even clearer when you're reading for different people. I had the good fortune to interpret the same set of hexagrams and lines twice within a week of one another, for different people, on utterly unrelated subjects. And no, the reading was not recyclable - every relationship within it (between hexagrams, lines, line pathways, you name it) took on new meaning.

So I'm relieved that you only agree with most of my ideas on 38.3, generally speaking.

Your dragon was winking at me the other day. Now it appears to be asleep. I'm not sure whether to feel more secure.

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 05:46 PM

Your dragon was winking at me the other day. Now it appears to be asleep. I'm not sure whether to feel more secure.

He's alive, I tell you. You may not be a virgin (ermm, stepping out of boundaries here... :rofl:) but you are still a damsel. Dragons love damsels... You are safe. :D

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 05:49 PM

So I'm relieved that you only agree with most of my ideas on 38.3, generally speaking.

See, the "generally speaking" is a just disclaimer a lawyer would love... Never closes a door... :rofl:

trojan

March 7th, 2008, 07:14 PM

I'm also of the opinion that, even though the push of "perceived meaning" and "interpretive opinion" discussions is to reach some kind "generic consensus" and "package" said consensus for others, perhaps newbies, to consume, and although I DO have lots of "interpretive opinions", I came to the conclusion, long ago, that context is everything. No matter how good we are in our efforts, our personal conclusions and interpretations are shifty, mutating beings that run through our fingers like water. Even in our own personal queries to the oracle we seem to avoid rigidity of opinion and "standard" interpretations, so, why impose rigidity on others when we shun it ourselves? .

Well i think we rarely do reach any kind of consensus so I don't see that much rigidity. I agree yes context is everything.

About the other stuff, yes I wasn't implying any kind of divisive split, I was writing partly tongue in cheek and picked out your and Martins conversation as illustrative (for me) of a kind of division I see here. I don't see that division as a problem - infact division is the wrong word becuase its not devisive just a different way of looking at the same thing - the Yi. And this being hex 38 thread i felt it approriate (for me) to express my thought here. :)

(Oh BTW i don't use 'scholar' as a flattering term but just to designate a type of approach)

martin

March 7th, 2008, 07:35 PM

Wow, nice paintings, Luis. I know the first one, not the second though. But wait, Dutch flags, these are Dutch warships? :)
Anyway, the second painting, with the ships, is still only a painting, an image of what happened, not what actually happened.
That was what I was trying to say about the Yi. However original the text, it is already interpretation. Or commentary if you like. It says what the authors saw in the hexagrams and lines. There is a subjective element there and apart from that, nobody can be completely accurate when he or she tries to translate perceived meanings into words.

So the 'original' text is, in a way, not only already interpretation or commentary, it is also already translation!
In other words, the text is not so original or factual as it may seem to be.
That doesn't mean that the text is useless, of course, or that we can do without it. But when we get into discussions about this or that character and that it is really character A and not B and so on and so forth we are on thin ice, imo. Because, who knows, maybe THEY used the wrong character, maybe they were inaccurate!

38? Well, only if the (imo after all not so) original text is taken as bible and I don't remember that you ever did that. And I agree with what you said about context.
But if you ever become fundamentalistic .. well, then I will tell your dragon that he shouldn't allow any virgins to come near you anymore. :mischief:
Your future will be bleak, Luis. :rofl:

lightangel

March 7th, 2008, 07:45 PM

Dutch war ships? :rolleyes:

If they are Dutch, don't you think they must be Pirate ships? :D

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 07:54 PM

Thin ice, indeed, but we were on it the moment we stepped into the realm of Yi... :D Should we chuck the text and work only with the images?

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 08:00 PM

Nine in the fourth place means:
Isolated through opposition,
One meets a like-minded man
With whom one can associate in good faith.
Despite the danger, no blame.

九四睽孤。遇元夫。交孚。厲旡咎。
jiu3 si4 kui2 gu1 yu4 yuan2 fu1 jiao1 fu2 li4 wu2 jiu4

If a man finds himself in a company of people from whom he is separated by an inner opposition, he becomes isolated. But if in such a situation a man meets someone who fundamentally by the very law of his being, is kin to him, and whom he can trust completely, he overcomes all the dangers of isolation. His will achieves its aim, and he becomes free of faults.

martin

March 7th, 2008, 08:00 PM

Dutch war ships? :rolleyes:

If they are Dutch, don't you think they must be Pirate ships? :D

Well, I recognize one of the ships, the one to the right. It's the ship of my grandgrandgrand .. father. And he wasn't a pirate.
All my other grandgrandgrand .. fathers were, yes, but he, no.
It's definitely a warship! :cool:

:rofl:

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 08:01 PM

Perhaps, after that line, I'll find a "like minded man/woman" around here... :rofl:

lightangel

March 7th, 2008, 08:06 PM

Well, I recognize one of the ships, the one to the right. It's the ship of my grandgrandgrand .. father. And he wasn't a pirate.
All my other grandgrandgrand .. fathers were, yes, but he, no.
It's definitely a warship! :cool:

:rofl:

But Pirates are so much more interesting! :flirt:
Maybe one of your more interesting grandgrandgrand .. fathers founded Martinique? :rofl:

sparhawk

March 7th, 2008, 08:10 PM

Unconscious serendipity: My business partners, in an ocean shipping business, are Dutch... :D Pirates, yes, but very professional at that... :rofl:

martin

March 7th, 2008, 08:32 PM

Yeah, that's what they say, those pirates, that they are in the shipping bizz, right? :D

martin

March 7th, 2008, 08:43 PM

But Pirates are so much more interesting! :flirt:

Hmm, now I wonder where my pirate clothes are. Must have them somewhere ...

:flirt: :flirt: :flirt: :)

lightangel

March 7th, 2008, 09:47 PM

Don't worry! I found your clothes:

492

you'll just have to snatch them back from this guy (who happens to be Luis' partner:rolleyes:)

lightangel

March 7th, 2008, 09:47 PM

how do you show pictures instead of links!!?

martin

March 7th, 2008, 10:47 PM

When you compose your post, click the image icon (yellow square with what looks like a mountain in it). Then you are asked for the URL of your image.
I snatched the clothes back, thank you! :D :flirt:

charly

March 7th, 2008, 11:13 PM

...
With Charlys unusual interpretive twists I just want to know has he applied these to his life or anyones life ? ... Most long term users of the Yi have all sorts of memories, journals and records, whether formally recorded or not that have shown them how certain answers have played out in their lives. They may have been consulting for many many years. So when somone comes along and says actually 'a' doesn't mean 'a' it means 'b' because they have a chinese dictionary well it doesn't mean everything. I think its very interesting and we are very lucky to have the benefits of undertandings of those who have learned Chinese - but its strange it gets so polarised on these memorising threads. Its as if we talk at cross purposes - no not cross purposes - different agendas. Scholarly precision v how it feels to live it .
Trojan:

I have used the I Ching for more than 30 years consulting for myself , for relatives and friends.

I always believe that the person that makes the consult must cast the coins, put the context, read the book and get the sense. I supply the coins, the technics, the book, the place, and only some little help. I never say what the book is «actually» saying, I never have the Truth.

The books I used were mainly Wilhelm / Baynes and Legge based spanish translations. When I cast for myself I write with pencil on the book pages what I believe in this moment that the hexagram / line is telling me. I have many contradictory records. When casting for others I never take notes.

With such a method I have no statistics for sharing.

At the 2002 crisis I was without work and I began to use for my own purposes the LiSe translation and commentaries. The chinese characters attracted my attention and got other versions, Bradford, Kerson Huang, Kunst. The LiSe commentaries liked me more than the old W/B, I understood that the rendering of the text has much to do with the intention of the translator.

Since then I have a copy of the Harvard-Yenching ZhouYI (by way of Steve Marshall site) and from time to time I seach word by word the standard meanings in english and the supposed etymology.

My work don't look for «Scholarly precision» only looks for straightening some interested distorted versions, nothing definitive, only opening ways. A I enjoy it very much. This is the sort of stuff that I can share: sometimes pedantic research, sometimes twisted stories.

I have not any chinese dictionary, I use only cheap sources, mainly from the web, I always quote the source for verification purposes or I use to say «maybe», «I believe», «some guys thiks that...».

I'm affraid that some people could feel excluded, I'm only traying to encourage others to do an active reading of the texts (chinese or not) and to give some points of view to which I adhere.

WITH RESPECT TO 38.3:

The times when I got this line I thinked «what horror! Better I look for an exit!» and I felt myself justified by the text.

Now I believe that maybe we could do something preventive: how not to arrive to this scene. How not to begin with all this.

Who are the characters in 38.3? They are:
the charriage
the oxen
the driver
maybe the hevens

What happened first? How was the lost begining?

maybe the driver was too rude with the oxen and they take revenge ?
maybe the charriage was tired of working for the man and dragged driver and oxen ?
maybe being the driver more kind with animals and things this scene would never ha
ppened?

Thanks for your attention and my apologies for my insistence in moving the dots. Will you get upset if I post another twisted story for 38.4?

Yours,

Charly

trojan

March 8th, 2008, 12:02 AM

Thanks for your attention and my apologies for my insistence in moving the dots. Will you get upset if I post another twisted story for 38.4?

Yours,

Charly

Not at all please share :D By 'twisted' i meant unusual BTW.

topal

March 9th, 2008, 01:54 AM

Here we are then...

38.4

Nine in the fourth place means:

Isolated through opposition,
One meets a like-minded man
With whom one can associate in good faith.
Despite the danger, no blame.

If a man finds himself in a company of people from whom he is separated by
an inner opposition, he becomes isolated. But if in such a situation a man
meets someone who fundamentally by the very law of his being, is kin to
him, and whom he can trust completely, he overcomes all the dangers of
isolation. His will achieves its aim, and he becomes free of faults.

Topal

sparhawk

March 10th, 2008, 03:50 AM

Come on, Charly, parsing issues aside, where who knows who's right or wrong (maybe Dobro :eek:; maybe me :footinmouth: or you :p), I do enjoy your Chinese translation ideas and theories. 38.4 is waiting... :)

Un abrazo,

charly

March 10th, 2008, 10:29 PM

Not at all please share :D By 'twisted' i meant unusual BTW.

Trojan and Luis:

38.4

睽kui2: opposition / divergence // stare // strange [W/B : OPPOSITION ]
孤gu1: lone / lonely // helpless / orphan / junior // fox [W/B : ISOLATED ]

遇yu4: meet with / [W/B : MEET]
元yuan2: primary / first / supreme [W/B : LIKE-MINDED !!! ]
夫fu1: husband / man / tall man / master [W/B : MAN]

交jiao1: interchange / to make friends / to intersect (lines) [W/B : ASSOCIATE]
孚fu2: trust / sincerity // captive [W/B : GOOD FAITH]

厲li4: severe / hard // dangerous [W/B : DANGER ]
无wu2: without / not / no [W/B : NO]
咎jiu4: blame / mistake [W/B : BLAME ]

Maybe W/B want to convince us that if we dare to oppose, this attitude will bring isolation and danger. → Be docile like a lamb.

I believe it's something twisted. See the sintax:

Subject (kui gu) → Verb (yu) → Object (yuan fu)
→ Circumstance or maybe parallellism (jiao fu)
→ Consequence (li wu jiu)

More straightforward alternatives:

Kui-Gu meets Yuan-Fu [for] interchanging sincere [compliments]. Dangerous, no blame.
Kui-Gu meets Yuan-Fu [for] interchanging captives. Dangerous, no blame.

But who are Kui-Gu and Yuan-Fu?

For Kui-Gu W/B give «isolated through opposition», there is an evident interpolation (through). In another context Legge translated Gu as «Fox», Waley says maybe it's a «cross-eyed fox» , also could be translated as «orphan» and, I belive, «Junior», «second rank chief»