Interpretation protocol

[urim]

I was wondering if it is 'politically correct' i.e. - appropriate etc. to 'the spirit of
the I ching' to mix and match different themed judgements of hexagrams with
lines.
For example--- Hex 45 which is generally enterpreted as GATHERING can also be
interpreted as ILLNESS according to some translations. What if the judgement and
main interpretation of the hexagram themed GATHERING resonate with the question at hand but the line # doesn't, but the line # in a different translation which is themed
--ILLNESS does apply better?

cheers
Urim:)

[hilary]

45 as 'Illness'? Sounds weird - which book is this?

Normally I would say look at as many interpretations and translations as you please - not in search of the one you like best, but in search of what they have in common. But here it looks like you have versions with nothing in common at all - almost as if you're working with two different oracles that just happen to be accessed via the same hexagrams. And in that case, mightn't it be better to know which oracle you're consulting before you start?

[trojan]

Kerson and Rosemary Huang have 45 as 'Illness' in their translation, they also have 38 as 'Abandoned' , 34 as 'Great Injury' and 16 as 'Weariness' ??

[hilary]

OK, this is embarrassing... that one's on my shelf, and I think I may even have reviewed it before forgetting its contents completely. It's one of those I might gather a few ideas from, but (obviously :blush:...) not consult with regularly. I can't imagine mixing and matching, as I can't imagine 16 meaning 'weariness'. Sometimes different interpretations blend (you can see how 34 can become 'great injury', I think), sometimes they just don't.

[urim]

Yup... Kerson and Rosemary Huang's I ching was the one I had in mind.
So if I read u correctly - Hilary- you suggest I have one particular translation/oracle
in mind before consulting the I Ching and then stick to that translation for the
answer, disregarding other translations? I have about 20 or so translations
on my bookshelf, Wilhelm, Alfred Huang's, Palmer, Karcher, Lynn etc. ( I like
collecting 'em) and I find some differ widely-- i.e.-- Take Karcher's #44 and just about
anybody else's #44 and compare readings.
BTW thanks for the reply.

cheers
Urim

[urim]

Just an afterthought... in defense of Kerson & Rosemary Huang's version--
at least it appears to be a scholarly effort at getting back to the original meaning
of the I Ching without any fancy paraphrasing fantasies... although it does seem
to raise a lot of eyebrows...hmm...

Urim

[hilary]

Normally, no, I wouldn't suggest deciding on and sticking to one translation. Actually I'm all in favour of comparing, contrasting and seeking out the foundational meaning under the different translators' responses. (That's how I first started getting an idea of #44 - comparing Karcher and just about anybody else.) It's just that finding a common foundation between 'Gathering Together' and 'Illness' is beyond me - and I'm wary of the idea of jumping between translations in search of bits that fit. It'd be hard to find a coherent way to understand and act on a reading that was half-Gathering, half-Illness, wouldn't it?

[dobro]

It'd be hard to find a coherent way to understand and act on a reading that was half-Gathering, half-Illness, wouldn't it?


Oh, I don't know... I'd share my crack pipe with you any day, Hilary.

[trojan]

I suppose in illness the body gathers its defenses to meet the threat - and 45 generally talks about making oneself ready in order to meet the unforseen. I guess illness is generally unforseen until it is upon one. A tenuous link but kind of a link

[meng]

I can see a plausible link between 45 and illness, in that you can gather the causes for the illness to yourself, physically and mentally. 45 is indiscriminating, so it's we who must discriminate.

As for the PC of mixing IC versions, who cares? Who is testing? What works best for one won't work best for everyone.

[sparhawk]

Handy...

The sixty-four hexagrams: some translations of hexagram names (http://www.aasianst.org/EAA/smith3.pdf) by Richard J. Smith

[maremaria]

Sometimes, to me, interpretation of a hexagram remind me playing scrabble or magnetic poetry game. We are given some “random” letters or words and try to make something meaningful .

[meng]

I don't recall the thread, but somewhere here, awhile back, Brad spoke of vertical and horizontal applications of hexagram meanings. Made a lot of sense to me, and said what I've not been able to put into words very well.

On one hand, one hexagram represents a huge amount of landscape. On the other hand, that landscape is very specific. So it is generously tall, but its horizontal borders are precise. That's the danger of being too liberal with what this or that hexagram means: you leave the borders of the actual meaning. But vertically, the applications can be from completely practical and down to earth, to extending through countless applicable scenarios.

Hope I didn't butcher that too badly, Brad.

[maremaria]

.
....... Brad spoke of vertical and horizontal applications of hexagram meanings. .....

......... That's the danger of being too liberal with what this or that hexagram means: you leave the borders of the actual meaning. ......
.

Sounds like one is searching for a spot where he can dig a well and find water . Somebody who knows, tells him “here is the right spot. Here you should dig to find what you want” Like Yi give us an answer –hexagram(s).
He starts digging for a while but can’t find anything and moves further to other spots. But the water is where he was told. No other choice than dig , dig , dig deeper.

What I like, among other things, in Brad’s work is the sections “keywords” and “glossary”. Pondering on what Yi want to tell me , I go there and read those sections. Sometimes a words clicks in my mind and “voila !!!”

Do you or Brad say sometime like that ? "Don’t go far away, stay there and dig " ?

Maria

[meng]

What a perfect analogy: vertical digging into a hexagram - 48.

Now, how about climbing? 46?

What of the horizontal borders? 60?

[listener]

I forgot about huang's book. for some reason, I always thought "illness" for 45 was very apt. I guess because my image of illness brings to mind this idea of all the white blood cells gathering around the site of the sickness/infection/thing that needs to be healed. without the illness, there is no gathering

Also, somewhere, I had seen an image for 45 that was the washington monument with a huge throng of people gathering around it. It seemed to imply a time of unrest when people or things or elements tend to come togethr to create a powerful source of resolution. This is also true in the psyche.

The idea of mending seems to fit with gathering togethr. you mend a sweater by gathering together the loose ends.

So Huang's 'illness' seems to imply the inate capacity for recovery. In any case 45 is never just about a group, is it? It is about the process of things/people coming togther. a parade, or a family reuniion, is also an assembling...and seemingly minus the "illness" factor...and yet there is always a central purpose for the gathering, an attempt to strengthen or make whole.

[meng]

Hmm, I'd interpret the antibodies as hex. 7.

[meng]

I never get the "oh goody" feeling when receiving 45. Just the opposite, it's more of a "hoo boy" feeling (illness?), because I know that gathering brings all kinds of stuff downstream, not just the good, fun or easy stuff. To me, the king entering his temple is the individual assuming authority and responsibly for delegating and discriminating what is good for the kingdom and what is not.

[urim]

Just like to say a big thanks for all the insightful posts re #45. After reading
the comments I must say I agree with those folks that find 'Illness' a rather odd
interpretation. So far, I can't find any translation other than Kerson Huang's
that translates it this way, although LiSe's site says one of the characters in the
ideogram suggests sudden death or accident... interesting....hmm.
I find the interpretation of the ancient ideograms quite fascinating and the more
I delve into it the more sympathy I have for the translators.

Urim

[maremaria]

Now, how about climbing? 46?

What of the horizontal borders? 60?

Yes and yes.

I'm little confused about 45. Is it a time we hear an " alarm" and try to objerve the situation and gather information needed to appreciate the whole matter and then design our strategy. Its a time we just prepare ourself for an upcoming threat ?
i.e. Like scanning all the internal and external factors that might have an influences on the curent or future situation and indentifying which are favarable and which unfavorable ?

In business, before a new venture take place, or a new product launge they contact such an analysis. They examine the inward and outward enviroment and based on those gathered information the are planning the venture. I see 7 the next step, where the 7 leader organize the actions.

[hilary]

In business, before a new venture take place, or a new product launge they contact such an analysis. They examine the inward and outward enviroment and based on those gathered information the are planning the venture. I see 7 the next step, where the 7 leader organize the actions.
That always seems to me like a pure 20 moment.
‘The ancient kings inspected the regions,
Saw the common people,
And established their teachings.’
Heaven help you if you establish your teachings or launch your product without Seeing anything.

I think 45 already knows exactly what it's all for. We have progress to make, a mountain to climb or a summit to reach - 46. We'll gather together all we have to invest it in that.

[meng]

I think 45 already knows exactly what it's all for. We have progress to make, a mountain to climb or a summit to reach - 46. We'll gather together all we have to invest it in that.

Really? hmm... I see it more as an organic process: it's only purpose is continued survival. But maybe we're saying the same thing? That is, if 'knowing what it's all for' includes the purely hardwired instinctual level. But then what about the pure causal level, such as snow melting from mountain peaks, forming streams, which gather upon the earth as a lake?

[hilary]

Not quite the same thing, I think. (That'd be boring ;) ) 45's Judgement evokes lots of purposeful energy, to me. Harvest - harvest - harvest. Great people, great sacrificial animals, direction to go. I get the sense of a huge investment, and needing to have a vision of a scale to match the investment. Not sure whether the vision has to be conscious... I think it'd help, though.

There is another way to see 45-46, suggested by the sequence. It says something like, 'gathering together and also above necessarily means pushing upward'. Just because there's this gathering of resource and there's something higher (in any sense you like) we could attain, the ascent happens. So it works both ways - push and pull.

45 would only be an 'oh goody' hexagram for me if I was just waiting for permission to pour my whole self into something - not if I had the smallest reservation about it.

[maremaria]

I was thinking the text from the Image “Thus the superior man renews his weapons, In order to meet the unforeseen.” , and the “lake” in the image as a pool of information.

Pondering….
Before making the 46 step we evaluate our strengths and weakness related to that specific “action” and what is out there (opportunities and threads) . This knowledge is necessary for the next step, to handle the situation in the most appropriate way, to secure our position, in a way.

:rant: took me 2 hours to connect.... telecommunication problems due to snow !!!

[meng]

still mulling...

I guess it's silly to strip a hexagram of its human uses, but that is what I've done to all of them. They're easier for me to process if I identify with their natural (and so amoral, unbiased and innocent) functions.

I see no ulterior intent in 45, other than to take advantage of the time of gathering, to further the survival of the organism. So, again, maybe we say the same thing... almost sorta.

[meng]

It is a question, to me at least, of whether man is separate from nature. I mean, the king can represent a queen ant or bee, or a seed, nut or pod, which was washed downstream. Sacrifice can mean getting beaten up in the process. It furthers to undertake something, because the time favors it.

[maremaria]

I quess that my initial example has confuse me. Better forget it for a while.

[meng]

Just to clarity, I'm not saying we can't effectuate 45, or that we are limited to being observers only. Part of the actual effectuation may include pressing onward and upward to accomplish something worthwhile. I'm saying, before human application, there is a natural application. It is the book of changes, not the book of humans. Moreover, approaching a time and circumstance in a natural way gets better results than one which is strictly humanly contrived.

[hilary]

Maybe my take on it is the human-motivation-added version of yours?

Maremaria, there could be information in that pool, but I'm sure there's also emotion by the gallon, sloshing up against the banks.

[rosada]

If a fable were to be associated with each of the hexagrams I would nominate "The Little Red Hen" for hexes 45 and 46. As in the fairytale, we have all the barnyard animals Gathering Together but there is no trust, no team effort and ultimately each person feels they are Pushing Upward on their own.

[urim]

On a certain level I think I'd have to agree with Meng's approach to interpretation.
If I understand correctly, I think it's too easy to lose sight of the 'bare bones'
original, unelaborated meaning of any given hexagram, and get carried away with
how it supposedly relates to the human condition with too much paraphrasing.
Given the difficulty involved in translating I'm not sure 'Gathering' is the
definitive rendering. Who knows... maybe 'Illness' is more accurate?
I'd like to see more translators back up their interpretations with a list of all
possible meanings of the names of the Gua and a complete breakdown of
of meanings of the Ideograph-- something like Alfred Huang,Stackhouse,Palmer,Hatcher
(keywords I find helpful) and LiSe's translations attempt to provide.

Hmm... might be interesting to do a survey of which meanings most frequently
coincide with a particular real life situation, which might help define and validate
the true original meaning of any given hexagram...

Urim

[maremaria]

Maremaria, there could be information in that pool, but I'm sure there's also emotion by the gallon, sloshing up against the banks.

Hilary, Maybe I should say a pool of “information” or “ raw data”.
Maybe the “raw data” gathered together form a lake (meaningful information ?)

Maybe the reason we collect /gather together things is what 45 talks about.

Observing myself re. 45 I see an “illness”(i.e. cann’t grasp its meaning”. There are ideas, thoughts, feelings wandering everywhere but nothing seems meaningful. Maybe if I gathered them together maybe something in them holds a remedy
To “cure” that “illness” first of all have to get them or myself together :duh:

[meng]

I have to get around to writing the Caveman's I Ching.

Urim, are you familiar with Bradford Hatcher's work, including his Zhouyi and Yijing Glossary? It's still available for free. http://www.hermetica.info

[hilary]

Pause to remember the Little Red Hen. I seem to remember a lot of,

'Who will help me to grind the wheat?'
'Not I,' said the rat. 'Not I,' said the cat. 'Not I,' said the pig...
'Then I shall do it myself,' said the Little Red Hen.

...and so on - and I can hear my Dad now doing all the animal voices! It has a 47-ish feel to me, on the whole: there may be no connection or resource out there, but I have my own in here. I see what you mean about 45.5, though. In theory they have a relationship; in practice, not so much trust. (But the line isn't stuck there.)

'Gathering Together' can be gathering all your own resources (inner as much as outer), bringing all your focus and intensity to bear in one place - and then this fuels the Push Upward.

(I like the idea of connecting fables and hexagrams. I'd already thought of maybe breaking the ice in that new group course I'm meant to be writing now :rolleyes: by doing practice readings for Cinderella. She might come in useful if no-one wants to dive right in and share their own story. But it'd be fun as an a priori exercise, too. Where in the Yijing is Henny Penny? Or Jemima Puddleduck? (10.3?) Or the Enormous Turnip?)

[hilary]

Ack - I write an answer, and then find three more posts :)

Caveman's I Ching - yes, please.

'Original, unelaborated meaning' - I persist in thinking that this is pretty likely to be a human feeling/ condition/ impulse... or complex of these.
41: 'Giving stuff up makes me nervous.'
7: 'Getting it done, getting it done, getting it done, getting it done...'
Can't think of how to put 45 just now, but you know what I mean.

"Raw data" sounds good for 45's reservoir - especially the 'raw' part.

[maremaria]

Rosada & Hilary, another fable (Aesop) : The four oxen and the lion.

A Lion used to prowl about a field in which Four Oxen used to dwell. Many a time he tried to attack them; but whenever he came near they turned their tails to one another, so that whichever way he approached them he was met by the horns of one of them. At last, however, they fell a-quarrelling among themselves, and each went off to pasture alone in a separate corner of the field. Then the Lion attacked them one by one and soon made an end of all four.

Maybe 45 or 8.

Meng, do you accept pre-orders ? :)

[meng]

Meng, do you accept pre-orders ? :)

ug umph nuhnuh

[maremaria]

ug umph nuhnuh

:rolleyes:

[trojan]

Hmm... might be interesting to do a survey of which meanings most frequently
coincide with a particular real life situation, which might help define and validate
the true original meaning of any given hexagram...

Urim

Well for me, time and time over, 45 concerns an actual gathering of people

[heylise]

Over the past years I gathered :) words or compounds of with the character names were part. Some have been entered in the website, but most not yet. I put 45-46 in, because of this thread.

Looking at words in which a hexagram name is used gives a lot of insight into its general meaning, which is very different from looking at specific meanings. Like chewing several things together and then finding out the overall taste.

About 45-46 (http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_33-48/45-46.htm)

It was supposed to be part of the SanShan software, but for some reason never did.

LiSe

[heylise]

Could it be that dying has to do with the individual disappearing in the big group? A young farmer gets a uniform and does not exist as farmer boy anymore, only as a pawn in the army. His life is not important. Cannon fodder. The picture of cui is a uniform and grass..

LiSe

[sparhawk]

That was very interesting, LiSe. Thanks.
I believe this is one of the cases where a distinction between ancient attitudes, specially macro Eastern philosophical attitudes, of being born pretty much to "serve,' while individuality of thought is discouraged unless you belong to either royalty or the very controlled scholarly elites, and those of Western thought, where you could find quite a few ancient "anarchist" with novel ideas. The only free-agents in ancient China appear to have been the Fang Shih, and even though many times employed by the governing elites, they were looked upon with scorn.

I mention all that to create some context for the idea that "the individual disappearing in the big group" was more the norm than the exception in ancient China. The concept of "death" behind the character has the commonality of that of "serving." "Serving," under those circumstances, is a form of death as a person.

Cheers,

[meng]

LiSe's 45 comments reminded me of this (sorta), which was emailed to me this morning from my son.

In one episode of "Cheers", Cliff is seated at the bar describing the Buffalo Theory to his buddy, Norm. I don't think I've ever heard the concept explained any better than this:

"Well you see, Norm, it's like this . . A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the heard is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine.

And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers."

[maremaria]

So that is the sacrifice if I have understand it. There is something that one wants to achieve. Alone s/he cann’t do it . S/he must find common people who share the same goal. To be a team member s/he must wear a special uniform and leave hers/his casual clothes home.

Meng “This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. “
A good example ,imo, of curing the “illness” and become stronger.

LiSe, Luis, Meng, thanks you.

[urim]

I still consider myself as a newbie to the I ching, although I've been reading about
it and consulting it for maybe past 10 years on a rather superficial level. I've only just recently started delving into it more seriously, due partly to this great site and the wealth of info available.
Sorry if some of my posts sound a tad critical, don't mean to be, find it difficult
to get the 'tone' just right.

Meng-- yes, I've recently discovered Hatcher's I Ching which I hold in high regard
but I need to research it more.
Caveman translation?-- OK, I get your point LOL , but of course given
the inherent difficulties of translating the Yi even a 'caveman translation'
could be controversial...
Heylise-- thanks for the extra info on 45 & 46, fascinating stuff, I really
appreciate your analysing the ideogram, characters, radicals etc.
at your site

Urim

[meng]

Caveman translation?-- OK, I get your point LOL , but of course given
the inherent difficulties of translating the Yi even a 'caveman translation'
could be controversial...


Urim, no matter how many times I've approached writing a Yi "version", I'm soon cut off, because I believe the Yi deserves an accurate translation, and I don't translate, I apply or illustrate.

So, for now, the closest I've come to free form, and mostly nature based, metaphors and impressions, is here: http://www.yijing.nl/candid/hexagrams/index.htm

[urim]

Thanks for the link Meng-- but I'm getting the sense maybe we are not quite 'on
the same page' (probably 'my bad') and like you-- I too believe the Yi deserves
an accurate translation... What I'd like to see is, --whoever attempts an accurate
translation-- should give a logical explanation of how they arrived at their
interpretation of a Gua, Ideogram, radical etc. (IMHO).

If a certain translator's version of the Yi is going to differ radically from the 'norm'
then IMO the translator should be aware he/she is going 'out on a limb' &
give a valid reason WHY they think it should deviate from the 'norm'.

The problem is-- from my limited understanding--apparently you can have
scholarly translators with credentials as long as your arm, debating over how
to translate an ancient chinese 3000 year old Gua,Ideogram character etc.
I jus think part of the fun is having the opportunity to examine the 'footprints'
leading up to their decisions regarding a character.

cheers
Urim

[meng]

For me, LiSe's translation and commentaries were a complete departure from what I had been accustomed to. She never gave a "valid reason WHY she deviated from the norm", that I know of, but she does support her unique presentation with some compelling evidence of it's legitimacy. The norm appears to broaden along with our understanding.

But I think it's a mistake (not saying one you are necessarily making) to think "If I just have the perfect translation, I will understand the Yijing." When things like humor, wit, charm and colloquialisms of the authors (not to mention of the gods!) are considered, even the perfect translation won't make it easy to know. And that brings me back to the benefit of primitive understanding.

[meng]

And that brings me back to the benefit of primitive understanding.

...because primitive understanding came before the authors. They only wrote of it, they didn't invent it, though they did invent a cool tracking system.. maybe.

[urim]

Yeah, I agree Meng... BTW I love the buffalo herd analogy LOL.
Another thing I like about LiSe's site is the (add on pages, i.e. 'more about hex #...)
which sometimes have a wealth of fascinating details re the ideograms etc.

cheers
urim