It furthers one to see the great man

[maremaria]

What does that mean.?

When we get a hex or a line with that phrase, does it means that we need external help to meet a situation or something else ?

[dobro]

The great person is the one who is above the norm, one who isn't limited to concern with the physical and the lower psychological, one who balances compassion and discernment, one who is less obsessessed with the self-concern of the ego. The great person has made a study of practical psychology and spirit, which means a study of him/herself using the guidance available through traditions and teachers who deal in this sort of knowledge. The great person has gone beyond mere study though, because he/she has actually taken at least some of the steps that transform one's being - see, the great person has taken on the responsibility of making changes in their life according to the self-knowledge gained: the 'too much' here has been reduced, the 'too little' there has been developed, the system has been brought into balance, awareness has been stabilized, the yin and yang of his/her being is in a state of conscious, dynamic equilibrium. The state of mind is often one of peace, love, understanding.

Okay, so when you draw the 'advantageous to see the great person' line, what does it mean? I see various possibilities.

* Read scripture. The spiritual message that speaks to you evokes your own higher potential. This is contacting the great person.

* Rig a physical meeting with a great person. A meditation teacher, someone you know who walks their talk, someone who has worked with life and on themselves to bring about personal change. It doesn't have to be a 'professional' spiritual teacher. It might be a recovered alcoholic. Anyone who sincerely works for personal transformation qualifies as a great person.

* Pray to the spiritual teacher of your choice. This person doesn't have to be alive now (but can be). This person doesn't have to be famous (but can be).

* Access your own higher mind. Unplug the phone, shut the door, stop activity, meditate or pray or read a useful book, and direct your attention 'inward' toward your own being. Direct your attention to whatever or whoever it is that asks the question 'what is the meaning of the great person?' You will not find it (in the same way it is impossible for the eye to see itself) but in the act of directing attention toward what you really are, your state shifts in the direction of (and possibly attains) the great person in yourself. See, that great person is in you, fully operative, if only you learn how to become aware of it.

[charly]

...does it means that we need external help to meet a situation or something else ?
María:

I believe that to see a great person is an advice. We always need some external help. But if the meaning is not so clear in english, it is less clear in chinese.

The character translated «to see» means:

to see, to observe (from some distance)
to meet with, to have an encounter (to get contact, to interact)

The character translated «great» means:

big, large (physical sense)
great (moral sense)


The character translated «person» means:

individual wide sense PERSON, individual male person MAN
plural wide sense PERSONS, male persons MEN
generic persons PEOPLE


All the combinatory is valid. 2 x 2 x 3 = 12. not less than 12, surely much more.

Examples:

Look for somebody important for you or with enough authority for give you advice or example, no needed to be perfect.

Look how great people behave. Could be selected people, could be majorities, could be large groups.


The advice is polysemic, it has too much senses. The context of your consult will give you the precise meaning for you.

Remember, no matter how tall, big or great we could be, always there is a person or a group that is taller, bigger or greater than us!

Don't look for a perfect, wise master, look at the master you have at hand, the one that can help you, sometimes yourself, sometimes not.

Yours,

Charly

[maremaria]

Dobro and Charly thank you.

I always found that phrase tough to understand. Still I do.
I got a reading yesterday and got 45. The weird think was that although the last days posting in another thread about 45 didn’t notice that phrase. One time seems like invisible and then you see it in bold, big letters

Anyway I ask Yi “who/ what is the great man ?” and got 23.5,6 to 8
Haven’t figure out yet which is the case here. External or internal being.

Keep thinking about it....

Maria

[rosada]

While 45 has been the topic of discussion on the other thread i have been reading about Muhammad. One of his most significant achievements was to bring the many warring tribes of Arabia together. The tribes did not completely trust each other, but at least he got them to Gather Together. Certainly an example of a Great Man.

[maremaria]

Lawrence of Arabia the movie Character. A 7 great man ?

[dobro]

There was greatness in Lawrence, but perhaps there were some other elements as well that 'curved' the greatness as it came through him.

[maremaria]

:lalala:

When I first saw that movie many-many year ago, I felt in love with that character and Peter O'Toole.

But seriously, yes you might be right.

[meng]

Bradford's hex 1 Notes cover "Great Man", Da ren, Jun Zi.

[sparhawk]

:lalala:

When I first saw that movie many-many year ago, I felt in love with that character and Peter O'Toole.

But seriously, yes you might be right.

You fell in love with Peter O'Toole and the romanticized version of the character he played in the movie... :D I seriously doubt you would fall in love with the real T.E. Lawrence... We may still be paying for some of the dabbling him and others from the British Empire did in the Middle East in the early 20th century...

[maremaria]

You fell in love with Peter O'Toole and the romanticized version of the character he played in the movie... :D .

I was VERY young..... But I still like that movie...:)

I seriously doubt you would fall in love with the real T.E. Lawrence... We may still be paying for some of the dabbling him and others from the British Empire did in the Middle East in the early 20th century...

With a sun in Scorpio..... You never know :rolleyes: :rofl:

[maremaria]

Bradford's hex 1 Notes cover "Great Man", Da ren, Jun Zi.

thanks. I'll go and check it.

[sparhawk]

I was VERY young..... But I still like that movie...:)



With a sun in Scorpio..... You never know :rolleyes: :rofl:

With the Sun in Scorpio?? Hmmm, checking the stars for the right moment... :rofl:

[maremaria]

With the Sun in Scorpio?? Hmmm, checking the stars for the right moment... :rofl:

For the right moment .... :confused: :confused: :confused:

[sparhawk]

For the right moment .... :confused: :confused: :confused:

I'm just pulling your leg, Maria... :D

[maremaria]

I'm just pulling your leg, Maria... :D

Really ? I thougth you were talking seriously....:rolleyes:

[sparhawk]

Really ? I thougth you were talking seriously....:rolleyes:

Hey, I've read Greek history. I know what happened to Troy because of an infatuation with a Greek woman... I'm afraid of being serious... :rofl:

[maremaria]

Don't have to worry. Ships are still in harbor.... :D

[hmesker]

Just to add some general ideas of how the expression 大人 was used throughout Chinese history, I'll give the meanings from the 漢語大詞典 dictionary:

.指在高位者，如王公貴族
refers to someone in a high position
.猶言王者
another word for the king
.對宮闈近侍的尊稱
honorific title for a personal attendant in the palace chambers
.指世家豪右
refers to a rich and powerful aristocratic family
.指德行高尚、志趣高遠的人
refers to someone with high moral, high conduct and aspirations
.對老者、長者的敬稱
respectful title for the elder people
.對父母叔伯等長輩的敬稱。《史記。
respectful title for parents, uncles etc., the elder generation
.指成年人。
. refers to adults
.身材長大的人
refers to tall people (duh)
.古代北方部族首領之稱
in ancient times the name of a chief of the Northern tribes
.周代占夢之官
during the Zhou-dynasty an official who interpreted dreams

Harmen.

[maremaria]

Thank you Harmen.

I visit you site but couldn't find something about it (in English)

Maria

[bradford]

Don'cha think the term "role model" belongs somewhere in this discussion?
An exemplar? Someone who's been where you want to go?

[dobro]

Yes, of course. That sums it up.

That's why you go and see the great person. To get yourself oriented properly by being receptive to his/her being. We all know we can't make it on our own. But the Yi points out that in some cases, not only can you not make it on your own, you can't make it by associating with people at your own level of understanding and experience, either.

A How we gonna do this?

B Dunno. Whatcha think?

A We need somebody who knows about this.

B Damn straight.

[hmesker]

I visit you site but couldn't find something about it (in English)

That;s correct, I didn't write anything about it :o. But in my small Dutch book De I Tjing Stap voor Stap (ISBN 9020201247) I wrote this about it (comparing the 'great man' with the junzi, the 'superior man'):

In ancient times the junzi was a prince of high descent. We are dealing here with someone who by his descent has been given a lot of responsability. Because of his descent he has a high place in society. This position has not been chosen voluntarily and it is not something he has achiveed by hard work, he only got it because of his high descent. With this position comes a lot of responsability. The junzi is someone who acknowledges and accepts this responsability. Because it is not chosen voluntarily it is connected to his inner being, his own nature. The junzi will try to live in such a way that he can perform the responsabilities that belong to his nature. He is aware of the way he has to go and will not deviate from it. The junzi knows his own nature.

'The great man' is also someone with a lot of responsability, but he chose for it himself. He knows that his inner nature has te be cultivated, and he has to take care of this himself. The great man is all his life working on the perfection of his inner being by learning lessons and receiving instructions. Because of this the great man often has experience the junzi lacks. The junzi has to make sure his nature does not obfuscate, but the great man has to make his nature clear.

Harmen.

[meng]

I take "see" as a double entendre, meaning to go see someone, and also to open eyes and recognize virtue.

[hilary]

Wonderful thread!

Harmen, I seem to remember reading in Rutt somewhere that the king could both make you noble by enfeoffing you, and also demote you from noble to peasant if you lost a battle. So being junzi wouldn't necessarily/ exclusively be something you were born into, even early on.

BTW, Wu Jing Nuan describes 'seeing the great person' as consulting with the diviner - maybe a related meaning to the official who interpreted dreams?

[dobro]

Okay, I've read the thread and all the meanings, and I've decided that 'see the great person' means to go attend a basketball game:

.身材長大的人
refers to tall people (duh)

[maremaria]

Most of the times, I perceived “the great man” as the “mentor”. I ‘m not sure if it is the same as the “role model” Bradford mentioned.

When we come across with a problem or a challenge, sometimes we feel we need a “swift kick”. A mentor’s presence could give that to us. S/he give us advises, teach us something, or reminds us that we already know what to do.

In such situations, I feel its hard to believe that we are “the great man” but even if Yi means that, imo, its seems like a warning that we are walking away from the “wise” part of us and wandering without a specific or meaningful goal.

meng :I take "see" as a double entendre, meaning to go see someone, and also to open eyes and recognize virtue.
Interesting the two meanings you assign to “see”. Seek for help (from inside or outside) but choose carefully from where you get it.

[meng]

Interesting the two meanings you assign to “see”. Seek for help (from inside or outside) but choose carefully from where you get it.

Thanks for leaving out the word "virtue" from my quote; I was just about to edit it out of my post. It isn't "seeing virtue", it's just "seeing", or more specifically, seeing as a great (or as Brad calls it: a mature) person would see.

[dobro]

In such situations, I feel its hard to believe that we are “the great man” but even if Yi means that, imo, its seems like a warning that we are walking away from the “wise” part of us and wandering without a specific or meaningful goal.

It might be a warning, or it might be nothing other than something which is very, very useful, like when you want to become a doctor or concert pianist, you need a teacher to show you lots of things you need to know to achieve that goal.

As for you being the great person yourself, that can be one of the inner meanings for sure. Have you ever come across the idea that higher mind and divinity are part of our being but we don't see it because we cling to lower, egocentric ways of looking and doing? It's more common in places like Buddhism than in Christianity, I think, and of course rampant in newage stuff.

[maremaria]

Okay, I've read the thread and all the meanings, and I've decided that 'see the great person' means to go attend a basketball game:

.身材長大的人
refers to tall people (duh)

When I read that in Harmen's post , it came to my mind two tiny and young people, kids to be accurate, that sometimes their wisdom, if it is the correct word, makes you run to hide. They say some simple things that they leave you with the mouth wide open. The best you can say , is "yup, you are right" :bag:

Maybe, if we don't take literaly all those meaning of "great man" Harmen provided us, I see Yi advice us to seek for the greatiness some being have and learn from it. And by Being I mean everything human being or not human being. From a great philospopher to my little nieces.

[hmesker]

Harmen, I seem to remember reading in Rutt somewhere that the king could both make you noble by enfeoffing you, and also demote you from noble to peasant if you lost a battle. So being junzi wouldn't necessarily/ exclusively be something you were born into, even early on.

Ah yes, that's true. But I assume that as a 'chosen one' you didn't really have a choice: being recognized as a junzi you could not decline the offer. That would be a great insult, I think. So being born into it or not, the responsability was chosen for you.

BTW, Wu Jing Nuan describes 'seeing the great person' as consulting with the diviner - maybe a related meaning to the official who interpreted dreams?That's possible. After all the da ren is described as a person who divines by interpreting dreams.

Harmen.

[maremaria]

It might be a warning, or it might be nothing other than something which is very, very useful, like when you want to become a doctor or concert pianist, you need a teacher to show you lots of things you need to know to achieve that goal.



Thanks for leaving out the word "virtue" from my quote; I was just about to edit it out of my post. It isn't "seeing virtue", it's just "seeing", or more specifically, seeing as a great (or as Brad calls it: a mature) person would see.

I don't know if I 'm in the right track, but the way this thread is moving, it make me think again about that phrase.

Dobro, you are rigth. I cannot be a doctor unless I have someone to teach me how to become one. But what kind of doctor I want to be determines what "great man" i'll seek to help me.
Meng what you said about "see" make me notice that word in that phrase.


Maybe Yi doesn't simply tell us to find a helper but examine the situation we are in , and decide whether we have all we need or not and then look for help to get what we lack.

[hilary]

Oh yes, the word 'see' is definitely worth noticing. 'Seeing the great person' has to mean some kind of change in awareness, whatever else it might mean. "Seeking for the greatness some beings have and learning from it" sums it up very well for me. It also reminds me of an idea from Carol Anthony, reflected in Ritsema/ Sabbadini's awkward wording 'seeing the great in the person'. Maybe it's possible to use this as a cue to see and relate to the great person in whoever you're interacting with at the time.

There are also times when a great person really needs to be a third party - it often seems to be that way in Hexagram 6. If you're in the middle of an intense argument for your rights and your needs, you're not best placed to see the great person in yourself or anyone else. It's what they have divorce mediators for.

Harmen - yes, but if you were king, socially noble or an ancient Northern chief (looking at your dictionary excerpt), you'd also had this chosen for you, so how robust is the distinction?

We know that eventually, being a junzi became a quality of character to aspire to. I wonder exactly when that was. As looking at the lines contrasting junzi and small person in Yi, the difference it does seem to be a matter of character and insight rather than position. (Whereas the difference between prince and small person in 14.4 is surely about social position and resources.)

[hilary]

The first time we're encouraged to see the great person is in 1.2 and 1.5. So what's the connection with dragons, in the field or flying?

[dobro]

Well, how do you deal with a dragon? How'd you like to deal with a dragon without any prep? You really, really want an expert onside when dealing with dragons.

BTW, have you ever read the Wizard of Earthsea? Useful information about 'em in there. But by and large, best just to keep your distance whenever feasible.

[hmesker]

Harmen - yes, but if you were king, socially noble or an ancient Northern chief (looking at your dictionary excerpt), you'd also had this chosen for you, so how robust is the distinction?

By giving that list I did not mean that all the entries would fit the context of the Yi texts in which da ren is used. Personally I would choose the 'diviner by dreams' definition - it fits the time line and the context of the Yi. But it all depends on context. There is also rhyme in the short sentence li jian da ren, something which adds weight to the expression (must explore whether this rhyme also existed during Zhou times though).

I also find it significant that the term da ren mostly occurs in the Judgment text, at the 5th line, and at the 2nd line. Apart from the 6th line of H39 the term does not occur at other lines.

Harmen.

[meng]

Oh yes, the word 'see' is definitely worth noticing. 'Seeing the great person' has to mean some kind of change in awareness, whatever else it might mean. "Seeking for the greatness some beings have and learning from it" sums it up very well for me. It also reminds me of an idea from Carol Anthony, reflected in Ritsema/ Sabbadini's awkward wording 'seeing the great in the person'. Maybe it's possible to use this as a cue to see and relate to the great person in whoever you're interacting with at the time. Assuming there is more than one "great person", in the complete sense. We could consider the archetype of "the great" or "mature" or "fully refined one" as the Buddha, or the cultural equivalent.

There are also times when a great person really needs to be a third party - it often seems to be that way in Hexagram 6. If you're in the middle of an intense argument for your rights and your needs, you're not best placed to see the great person in yourself or anyone else. It's what they have divorce mediators for.

I agree, there are times. But it's kind funny, this morning I received 6.3,5-50 about a purely personal matter, and only I could have acted as arbitrator in this matter.

There's nothing in Yi which can not be found within ourselves, including the dragon or "The Great Man", if we're willing and able to see him.

[maremaria]

........
I also find it significant that the term da ren mostly occurs in the Judgment text, at the 5th line, and at the 2nd line. .....
Harmen.

That’s interesting Harmen,

From LiSe’s site :
Line 2: Relations, contact with the world, maintaining oneself in contacts, seek or avoid contact.
Line 5: Spiritual exchange, leading, mental growth, society.

From Bradford’s PDFs :
The time of

Line 2 : Internal development, Scoping,Grouping,Preperation, Small advances
Line 5 : Manifestation, Mastery, Control, Authority, Achievement< finesse, Optima

Situations and Suggested Approaches

Line 2 : A time for Zhen: persistence, commitment,loyalty, focus or thoroughness. Situations broaden, some limits are learned, skill and resources are called on

Line 5 : The time bears its fruit. Subsequent decay is still not apparent. A time for the moderation and balance suited to mastery and nobility. The merit shows.

[meng]

Maybe because da ren is central, in the center of heaven and of earth. Being central in two places, possibly at once, is an interesting idea.

[maremaria]

Like a pinwheel (windmill) toy . As long as the pin is strong enough to keep the vanes together, It can rotate sweepingly.

[meng]

Like the Wheel of life?

I was referring to position 2 and 5. 2 is the middle of the earth trigram, 5 is the middle of the heaven trigram. Seems a fitting place for da ren.

[maremaria]

Like the Wheel of life?

.

No. The center = the pin

[dobro]

The first time we're encouraged to see the great person is in 1.2 and 1.5. So what's the connection with dragons, in the field or flying?

Hilary, my other answer to this was just having some fun. But it's a good question, and I see maybe two answers.

1 The great person partakes of dragon power, the great person is a 'dragon master'. So when you start dealing with that power in your own life, who better to consult than somebody who's intimately familiar with dealing with ('fielding') that very thing? For instance, in yoga, they talk about (and sometimes cultivate) the serpent power known as kundalini. People who manifest this energy on their own really have a very hard and scary time of it, but people who have an instructor who KNOWS that energy through personal experience can help them a lot.

2 The great person crops up 11 times in the Yi, I think. (Less often than the jun1 zi3, which is interesting.) The da4 ren2 seems to put in an appearance whenever the higher, balancing force of his/her being is required.

1.2 and 1.5: dealing with dragon power

6: dealing with conflict and contention

12.5, 12.6: dealing with obstruction and standstill and stagnation

39: dealing with limping advance

45: dealing with gathering, the confluence of large numbers

46: dealing with rising to a higher level

47: dealing with confinement

49.5: dealing with transformation

57: interestingly, dealing with the flexible penetration of the foundation of things (I've never understand why the da4 ren2 is necessary here. Maybe it's dodgy penetrating to the foundation of things?)

In almost all of these situation, the da4 ren2 appears when it's really important to keep things on track (or brought back onto track), when you're dealing with big forces that require 'higher guidance'. I would also say that the appearance of the great person in these hexagrams is a surefire indication of the nature of the energies being dealt with - 'big times require a big person'.

But really, have you read the Wizard of Earthsea?

[meng]

No. The center = the pin

Last one to the center's a rotten egg.

http://downloads.wisdompubs.org/website_downloads/WheelofLife.jpg

[meng]

Maria,

I'm not sure if you understand what I meant by "last one to the center is a rotten egg". Here it is a child's expression, when they race to a certain place. Being the pin in the wheel is great, but it's not at all easy to achieve that place for any enduring length of time. That's why I compared it to the Tibetan wheel. You must first "negotiate" successfully with all obstacles, some of them horrible, before you can enter into the center. Also, notice that the image encompasses the duality of heaven and earth.

I'm told that line 2 and 5 both represent man: below on earth, above in heaven. Is it possible to be two places at once? Two wheels? Or one wheel which encompasses both?

[maremaria]

Maria,

I'm not sure if you understand what I meant by "last one to the center is a rotten egg". .........
... That's why I compared it to the Tibetan wheel. .....

Thanks for clarifying. New phrase on my list :)

I'll back later ...

Maria

[charly]

... 57: interestingly, dealing with the flexible penetration of the foundation of things (I've never understand why the da4 ren2 is necessary here...

... the da4 ren2 appears when it's really important to keep things on track (or brought back onto track), when you're dealing with big forces that require 'higher guidance'...



Dobro:
I agree with all what you say about the context da ren appears. I wonder why didn't you understand the necessity of having a da ren in H.57.

Wilhelm is clear:

THE GENTLE. Success through what is small.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.
It furthers one to see the great man.

Penetration produces gradual and inconspicuous effects.
It should be effected not by an act of violation but by influence that never lapses.
Results of this kind are less striking to the eye than those won by surprise attack, but they are more enduring and more complete.

If one would produce such effects, one must have a clearly defined goal, for only when the penetrating influence works always in the same direction can the object be attained.

Small strength can achieve its purpose only by subordinating itself to an eminent man who is capable of creating order.


Wilhem/Baynes

... and the chinese text:

巽 sun4: submission
SUBMISSION
GENTLENESS

小 xiao3: small / tiny / little
亨 heng1: sacrifice / feast / treat // success / to succeed
LITTLE FEASTS
LITTLE SUCCEEDS

利 li4: profit / profitable
有 you3: to have / there is / there are
攸 you1: far / where ?
往 wang3: to go (in a direction)
PROFITABLE HAVING WHERE TO GO
PROFITABLE HAVING TO GO FAR


利 li4: profit / profitable
見 jian4: to see / to meet
大 da4: big / huge / large / great
人ren2: man / person / people
PROFITABLE TO SEE A GREAT-MAN
PROFITABLE TO MEET THE GREAT-MAN

The dramatis personæ are few:


大人 Da-Ren, «Big-Man»: the one capable of getting his purpose with small strenght.
小 Xiao, «Little»: the one feasting at the begining, maybe twin brother of the first.
... and of couse, backstage, We.


The action is simple, for each step there is an advice:
at the begining to feast, «go as far as you can» or «have a goal in your mind»
at the end an ordered retreat, «get a big-man for to proceed», «you need a big-man for comming to an end alive»



It's not, as Legge said, matter of «little success» ...

Sun intimates that (under the conditions which it denotes) there will be some little attainment and progress. There will be advantage in movement onward in whatever direction. It will be advantageous (also) to see the great man.
Legge
From: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ich/ic57.htm


... it's about Little (aka «The Gentle») who succeeds and gets the help of Big for not to end badly.

Big is a yet initiated tall man, Little is like a child, not yet initiated but willing to be. Blofeld translated H.57 as «Willing Submission» and Rutt as «Food Offerings».

Yours,

Charly