12.4 and chou2

[dobro]

Chou2 in line 4 of Hex 12 is one of those terms that falls through the cracks of my study:

* Brad's lexicon doesn't cover it cuz it's rare (Brad, those rare ones are the VERY ones I most need help with lol).

* The old school (Wilhelm, Legge) render it one way ('companion, like-minded people').

* Karcher not only renders it a different way (no surprise - he's Karcher lol - 'cultivate'), but doesn't include the 'companion' group of meanings in his lexicon

* Shaughnessy calls it 'blessings', which is more along the lines of the last word in that line (zhi3) just to confuse things even further

* Fan Yao's not much help - it doesn't have any obvious connection with either set of meanings - 'contemplate king's brightness', 'visit the king' - nah...too far a stretch

This morning, the 'cultivate' meaning is making more sense to me than the 'partner' meaning, but what's your take on it?

[sparhawk]

Cool question. Allow me to get back home and I'll check the dictionaries I have. Later...

[charly]

Chou2 in line 4 of Hex 12 i...

... The old school (Wilhelm, Legge) render it one way ('companion, like-minded people').

... Shaughnessy calls it 'blessings', which is more along the lines of the last word in that line (zhi3) just to confuse things even further

... the 'cultivate' meaning is making more sense to me than the 'partner' meaning, but what's your take on it?

Dobro:

Maybe a look to the chinese text could aport some light:

有you3: to have / there is / there are
命ming4: life / fate / destiny
无wu2: without / not / no
咎jiu4: blame / to blame / mistake

疇chou2: land / arable, cultivated field // a class / a category / a rank
離li2: to leave / to depart / to go against / / to meet with / to act in pair [share?]
祉zhi3: happiness / blessing

About chou2, for peasants land is a blessing indeed, it has two components field and long-life.

But also take a look at li2, it has two components beast and bird → animals → living beings → nature

THERE ARE FATES WITHOUT BLAME.
LANDS [AND] LIVING-BEINGS [BRING] HAPPINESS.

He who acts at the command of the highest [FATE/DESTINY]
Remains without blame. [NO BLAME]
Those of like mind [SAME CLASS OR RANK] partake [SHARE] of the blessing [HAPPINESS].

The time of standstill is nearing the point of change into its opposite...
... the man who is truly called to the task is favored by the conditions of the time, and all those of like mind will share in his blessing. Wilhelm/Baynes

Kunst says that if we have a good destiny (job) it's not unlucky and thinks that li2 is a sort of bird, then to see the bird over the field is an omen of happiness. A Kunst based translation could be

TO HAVE A GOOD DESTINY IS NOT BAD
LIKE TO SEE A BIRD OVER THE FIELD IS AN OMEN OF HAPPINESS.

Philosophical sense vs. common sense ws. peasant omens. We choose.

Yours,

Charly

[charly]

Chou2 in line 4 of Hex 12 is one of those terms that falls through the cracks of my study:...
Dobro:

P.D.: Wilhelm used the word «Gleichgesinnten» for which Webster quoted «Birds of a feather flock together» also could be «twin souls» or shorter «twins»

http://www.lovefilm.com/lovefilm/images/products/3/1353-medium.jpg

Yours,

Charly

[dobro]

疇chou2: land / arable, cultivated field // a class / a category / a rank

Okay, it's clear to see where 'cultivation' comes from. Not so sure where Wilhelm and Legge got their 'companion' and 'like-minded person' idea from - I suppose that's from the second 'category' group of meanings. And yes, I can see how 'arable land' could be considered a metaphor for 'blessing' to the Chinese.

Thanks for the input, that's useful to me.

You can be Schwarzenegger.

[sparhawk]

I don't have much to add to what Charly said. Only to say that 田 also means "to hunt"

Now, for 疇...


Mathews have:

Arable land. Divisions
A class; companions. Hereditary. Interchangeable with preceding
Who?
Interchangeable with 酬 (Mathews 1320), "to requite" (1 a: to make return for : repay b: to make retaliation for : avenge
2: to make suitable return to for a benefit or service or for an injury)Schuessler have:

Plowed fieldsI also have a big, two volume Chinese-English dictionary, that has:


Farmland
Kind; Division
Domain (My note: it is used quite a bit with this meaning, i.e. 疇理掄 = "Domain theory"...)

[bradford]

Don't forget that you have to make the whole sentence work too - chou li zhi.
And it's not going to hurt you a bit to make the meaning subordinate to
the meaning of the Gua as a whole - pulling two things apart, making a
distinction (li) and then a choice to move with what is superior (ming).
I trust you tried my matrix and then the simple translation? I admit that
my translation is fairly unique, but I think this is one that has long been
misunderstood.

"O Zarathustra," said they, "gazest thou out perhaps for thy happiness?"--
"Of what account is my happiness!" answered he, "I have long ceased to
strive any more for happiness, I strive for my work."

[charly]

... you have to make the whole sentence work too ...
... to make the meaning subordinate to the meaning of the Gua as a whole...
... I trust you tried my matrix and then the simple translation?...
... my translation is fairly unique ... has long been misunderstood.

Bradford:

I'm trying to discern what the text actually says as a mean to discard interested bias. Then I take for each character some meanings from diverse dictionaries and etymologies.

The sense is another thing. I believe that there are very much senses attached to the sentences, out of the personal sense related to the consult.

Looking for sense I'm prone to prefer not the 1st. level sense but some of deeper because I believe that if th YI wanted to say commonly accepted ideas, it will use a direct explicit language.

From that point of view my temporary translation looks something obvious. The yours is better for me:


Having higher purpose is not a mistake
But this kind of thing differs from happiness...

...There are higher laws than the kingdom's, higher mandates ...

From: Version 05.9, © Bradford Hatcher, 1999, 2005



You read the two faced little daemon, blend of beast and bird, as «to differ». He [離] is indeed the 1st. actor at this scene: to be called for a task, to have a high mandate is not matter of having lands nor getting happiness.

Yours,

Charly

[charly]

... Thanks for the input, that's useful to me... You can be Schwarzenegger.
Dobro:

I feel myself closer to DeVito. Maybe Brad is Schwarzenegger.

Yours,

Charly:bows:

[dobro]

"Having higher purpose is not a mistake
But this kind of thing differs from happiness..."

Yeah, this is good, and I've been mulling it since I saw it, but it strikes me that the Yi usually doesn't philosophize like this, it usually offers an image as a symbol of a situation. The only other line I can think of that philosophizes is the one in 11 about slopes and levels.

[bradford]

" but it strikes me that the Yi usually doesn't philosophize like this, it usually offers an image as a symbol of a situation.

I see philoophy somewhat more often than you might, but it's certainly true that its philosophy is more often cast in concrete and sensible images. But here I see hard, straight talk to a noble - helping him turn away from something he might not want to abandon.
You gonna serve a higher purpose or just seek your own happiness?
Among noble folk at least, it's certainly the kind of a choice that recurs with an archetypal frequency.