About Ritsema-Karcher in 38.3

[bernie]

I just noticed that Ritsema-Karcher uses "yao", "stricken", instead "tian" in 38.3.

In Wilhelm it says:

One sees the wagon dragged back,
The oxen halted,
A man's hair and nose cut off.
Not a good beginning, but a good end.

(tian is the haircut there)

I know that the usual meaning of "tian" (heaven) is not used for that location.
It is well explained at:

THE PERILS AND PLEASURES OF TRANSLATION: THE CASE OF THE CHINESE CLASSICS, by DAVID R. KNECHTGES (it is a very interesting lecture by the way)
http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english/newsxitong/selectedPapers/2006101194856.htm

Also Karlgren in his dictionary says: Heaven (Shï); loan for <i>id.</i> to brand on the forehead (Yi).

Now, neither Karlgren nor Mr. Knechtges mention "yao" at all.

Also Bradford renders tian there as "head shaved (bald to heaven), branded" (I wonder what means bald to heaven, would it be like a sacrifice to heaven?).

So my question is from where comes "yao" in Ritsema translation?
If somebody know to which Chinese characters Ritsema is refering there, I would like to know.

Bernie

[hmesker]

So my question is from where comes "yao" in Ritsema translation?
If somebody know to which Chinese characters Ritsema is refering there, I would like to know.

He reads tian 天 as yao 夭 which isn't so strange, considering the similarity in shape.

Harmen.

[bernie]

He reads tian 天 as yao 夭 which isn't so strange, considering the similarity in shape.

Harmen.

Thank you, now I have located the character in my dictionary.

No doubt using yao seems logical, but do you know if its is only him that reads tian in that way or there are others comentators using that interpretation as well.

Bernie

[hmesker]

As far as I can see Ritsema is the only one who reads tian as yao, I cannot find other sources (Chinese or Western) who do this. But his reading is as equally valid as reading tian as 'a tattoo on the forehead', which is an interpretation from later commentators. The Yi is the only book in which tian is supposed to have this meaning, and that fact alone should make you cautious about this reading.

Harmen.

[gene]

The shaving of the head to heaven could mean, and I speculate, somewhat, that one is receptive (an open head) to the advice given to him from above.

Gene

[wealth]

Don't eastern monks shave their head?

If so then it could be a religious practice...

[sparhawk]

Don't eastern monks shave their head?

If so then it could be a religious practice...

The practice of shaving heads for religious practices seems to be a later development, mostly a Buddhist practice, and not related to what the text of the Yi is describing. In the general context of the line, the shaving of the head (or tattooing, or branding, other possible meanings of 天) is carried out as punishment.

[wealth]

The practice of shaving heads for religious practices seems to be a later development, mostly a Buddhist practice, and not related to what the text of the Yi is describing. In the general context of the line, the shaving of the head (or tattooing, or branding, other possible meanings of 天) is carried out as punishment.
Ah, thanks for that. :bows:

[bradford]

JSYK-
The character Tian is found at 38.3 in the Mawangdui text as well, so if there's a corruption anywhere it's at least 22 centuries old.

[hmesker]

The character Tian is found at 38.3 in the Mawangdui text as well

Actually, this part is missing in the MWD text, so it cannot help us to make a decision on variant characters for tian. All we have is the current version of the Yi.

Harmen.

[bradford]

Actually, this part is missing in the MWD text, so it cannot help us to make a decision on variant characters for tian. All we have is the current version of the Yi. Harmen.

My error - I was looking at the wrong section of Shaugnessey's reconstructed text, and anyway I should have checked what I thought I saw against my Kunst version, where he brackets the filled in lacunae.