55.4

[trojan]

Wondering if anyone has anything to throw at me about this line :D anything will do, well maybe not rotten tomatoes. Experience, insights, your take on it. Meeting with the 'hidden lord' ? We've been talking about the lord in the narrow alley in 38.2 but heres the 'hidden' lord and hes very mysterious to me.

I'm sure Martins cow must have some pearls of wisdom on 55.4 ?

[martin]

Oh, I have that all the time. People don't recognize my light (36), they think I'm stupid. Moo! :rolleyes:
But I don't care, I do my thing, I eat grass, I go to the pub with Harry, and I am the brightest girl in the world for him! :)

Bella :)

[sparhawk]

People don't recognize my light (36), they think I'm stupid. Moo! :rolleyes:
But I don't care, I do my thing, I eat grass, I go to the pub with Harry, and I am the brightest girl in the world for him! :)

Bella :)

Well, excuse us, but anything that has udders with four long nipples looks funny and distracting... :rofl:

http://www.joshschomer.com/pictures/udders.jpg

[sparhawk]

I happen to be reading Richard Gotshalk's translation (http://www.amazon.com/Divination-Order-Zhouyi-Richard-Gotshalk/dp/0761813152/ref=sr_11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1204391016&sr=11-1) and he has this for 55.4 (and 55.5), to confuse things a little:

55.4: He meets the barbarian chief: coming splendor-and-brilliance, will have rejoicing and praise.
Auspicious.

55.5: Grand-and-full the darkness, at midday see the Dipper.

Then he has a note attached to both lines and the note reads:

There is a faulty line-division between Lines 4 and 5; I have moved the first part of Line 4 in the traditional and the Mawangdui texts to Line 5, and what was Line 5 to Line 4, to restore the text to order.


Just to add a different take on this.

Brad or Harmen: do you have this book? What do you make of it? It is quoted by Nielsen in several places and is a pretty serious book. Also there is an Appendix called "The earliest records of divination using the Zhouyi", that is full of footnote's numbers but those footnotes are nowhere in the book. Have you noticed this??

[martin]

You took pictures when I was swimming topless! :eek:
You paparazzo, you! :rant:

[dobro]

Encountering hidden guidance means something like becoming aware of a source of guidance for you that's been there all along but you weren't aware of (duh). It might be a person you know who suddenly becomes a source of guidance for you, a book, or even a dimension of your own being that you either hadn't noticed or hadn't taken seriously. And suddenly...voila!...you're getting valuable lessons and directions from it/them/yourself.

For instance, imagine you work with somebody who you know to be pretty ordinary, but suddenly in a conversation with them one day you notice that they have a quality of endurance or tolerance or affection that you hadn't noticed before, and which you admire in a way that's useful for your own development. Well, that's hiding master.

[sparhawk]

Update: just read Brad's short take on the book.

Gotshalk, Richard. Divination, Order and the Zhouyi. Lanham, MD: University
Press of America, 1999. Modernist; much too loose with emendations.

[trojan]

Martin I fear you are over identifying with Bella a little. A while back Bella was your cow, now you either are Bella (as sub personality) or you are channelling Bella, or Bella is using your keyboard. Either way she seems like a really nice cow, a shame shes so unappreciated.

Luis thanks, i like the sound of a nice hunky 'barbarian chief'...

Dobro, yes good thinking, I hadn't thought of that myself, it being something/someone already there

[sparhawk]

Luis thanks, i like the sound of a nice hunky 'barbarian chief'...

Ahem..., I'm good at channelling too... :D

[hmesker]

Harmen: do you have this book? What do you make of it?
I had it, but for some reason which I don't quite recall I sold it; probably because it was not much different from Kunst, Rutt or other 'modernists'. I did not find it worthy to gather dust on my shelves (http://www.itcn.nl/boekenkast).

Harmen.

[dobro]

You've got a couple of books there, Harmen, that's for sure. And if a book can't keep its place in a library with hundreds of volumes, then the implication is painfully obvious... :D

[sparhawk]

Thanks, Harmen, that's also the impression I received from the book but is good to have it confirmed by you and Brad. Regarding books, I am more omnivorous (http://www.yitoons.com/library.html) and keep adding shelves (and dust)... :D

[trojan]

Ahem..., I'm good at channelling too... :D

Okay Luis the Barbarian Chief :rofl:

[dobro]

In the history of this planet, I wonder how many barbarian chiefs were also channels. I imagine they didn't last very long...

barbarians: Okay chief, what do we do now? We kill 'em all, right?

chief: Hang on, I feel a need to channel Mentor again...

barbarians: What? Again? You just channelled him last week. Come on! We want to kill something, not check with some discarnate entity whether or not it's a good idea. I mean, what's the point of being an ignorant, brutish, instinct-driven barbarian if you can't just kill stuff when you want to? You sure you're the man for the job, chief?

[martin]

Martin I fear you are over identifying with Bella a little. A while back Bella was your cow, now you either are Bella (as sub personality) or you are channelling Bella, or Bella is using your keyboard.

Oh well, since I discovered that I am nothing (and everything) it feels good to have an identity again, even if it's only 'as if'. So I'm Bella sometimes, moo! :)

[listener]

Holy Cow. And I am not talking about Bella....That there is one incredible library, Harmen. I guess when it comes to being I Ching geeks, most of us are just little geekettes or geek wannabees. maybe barbarian chief wannabees? I stand in awe:bows:

[bradford]

Try my footnote to 55.4 on "hidden leader":

* 55.4 Working in darknes refers to Zhi Gua 36, Brightness Obscured, and to the
covert operations discussed at Fan Yao 36.4. To remain focused turns a dark
situation into an enlightened covert intelligence.

[meng]

R.e. Brad's comments..

I've felt for a long while now that 55's lines are more about darkness that about 55's light. Most of her lines seem to oppose the central meaning. Line 4 is where it seems to culminate, like a show down with the devil, but then realizing he's not going to do you much good, and so you move on. And it is then when a "pattern emerges" in line 5, whereby you can recognize the way, as the mature tiger of fan yao 49.5.

The most obvious thing you observe in the dessert is how quiet things appear on the surface when the sun is at midday; everything but snakes or lizards are obscured.

[meng]

To clarify something I meant to imply: his ruler or leader = the way.

To remain focused turns a dark
situation into an enlightened covert intelligence.

[trojan]

Thanks Brad. I think part of 55.4 is then actually not knowing - thats what the darkness is the not knowing. It seems to require some kind of faith then to work on in darkness, just sensing or groping for the way - then perhaps finding it.


Bruce yes when I think of 55 I have a bit of a sickly vision of a hot sun one can barely see in its so bright - squinting. But you see 55.4 as a 'showdown with the devil' ? I thought the lord you met here was a help to you in the darkness , or he uses the darkness to secretly reveal intelligence to you. But you see the 'lord' here as a devil to you ?

[meng]

I symbolically view the devil as a potential friend, once you get past the mask and fear. Tibetan Buddhist demon symbolism is the kind of thing I'm referring to, as in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, not the devil associated with Judaea/Christian thought.

Master in the alley
491
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahakala

[heylise]

Makes sense, devil and ally. Yi is also a name for everyone who is 'not us', back in Wen's time the tribes along the borders, and nowadays still everyone who is not Chinese.

So in hex. 36 it might also refer to these tribes or strangers.

Feng, the name of hex. 55, is the name of Wen's (and later his son Wu's) garrison, where he gathered his forces and organized the attack on the Shang. He had to win as many allies as possible. The Yi-tribes were more or less everyone's enemy, but they hated the Shang because they had been slaughtered by them. By the guy mentioned in hex. 63 and 64. So they were willing to assist Wu in his attack against their common enemy. After the conquest they became their old nuisance again. Or maybe the Zhou were to them just as much a nuisance as the Shang were.

In times when you have to win a big battle, it makes sense to use whatever help you can get. To put big efforts in winning over the ones who can help you can make the difference between winning or losing. If you divide the world in "good ones and bad ones", or "us and not us", your chances will not be big. If your attitude to the world is open, you can find forces everywhere.

Still not clear to me, that belly of 36.4... Wondering about Mahakala

LiSe

[meng]

Along the lines of LiSe's comments:
(note tiger and leopard skins)

http://images.exoticindiaart.com/hindu/the_dance_of_shiva_and_kali_hp73.jpg

I realize this has gotten away from the prosaic and practical, into the mythological, but it can still be useful for practical applications.

[heylise]

About 36.4, the fan-yao. Finding the enemy in the darkness of 36, even in your belly. Fears and such things can be crippling, and most of all when you try to get away from them. They are your "Yi".

If you make them to allies, like in 55.4, they might lose their power, and maybe even turn into helping powers. And it sets you free, "out of of front door and courtyard". It does make sense to me.

LiSe

[maremaria]

Along the lines of LiSe's comments:
(note tiger and leopard skins)

http://images.exoticindiaart.com/hindu/the_dance_of_shiva_and_kali_hp73.jpg

I realize this has gotten away from the prosaic and practical, into the mythological, but it can still be useful for practical applications.

Interesting image. I noticed that the sword is down and the woman tryes to make a contact with the black man.

About 36.4, the fan-yao. Finding the enemy in the darkness of 36, even in your belly. Fears and such things can be crippling, and most of all when you try to get away from them. They are your "Yi".

If you make them to allies, like in 55.4, they might lose their power, and maybe even turn into helping powers. And it sets you free, "out of of front door and courtyard". It does make sense to me.

LiSe

There is a poem which says something like that. "the gap will be always there, unless you get in and fill it". I'm not sure if it is 36.4 or 55.4 or both.
The gap looks like a big dark hole, where evil, danger, scary "creatures" migth live. But maybe the hold a "wisdom" that can help us to go out of the front door. I like the "front door". Go out as a winner maybe ?

[dobro]

If by the devil you mean 'negative influence' then recognizing and formulating the devil in your life is wisdom, and that recognition and formulation is the first step. Making the necessary changes that insight suggests and requires is the second step, however, because a negative influence is a negative influence and as a general rule of thumb we are to let go of harmful influences, especially if we embody them in ourselves. The devil is no friend, in other words. A force to be reckoned with, yes, and a force not to be fought against but as far as possible kept clear of. A useful cosmic challenge, perhaps, if you rise to the challenge. But not a friend. Not according to my definition of a friend, anyway.

[meng]

If by the devil you mean 'negative influence' then recognizing and formulating the devil in your life is wisdom, and that recognition and formulation is the first step.

No, this misses the intended meaning of the devil. Your use (negative influence) connects the devil with evil (primarily a Christian connection), where as my Hindu/Tibetan Buddhist reference symbolizes awe/terror/death and unknown, and thus is connected to divinity. Actually, the pre-Christian images of the devil come from such mythologies as Pan, which bears striking similarities to Hindu's Krishna.

[dobro]

I've felt for a long while now that 55's lines are more about darkness that about 55's light. Most of her lines seem to oppose the central meaning. Line 4 is where it seems to culminate, like a show down with the devil, but then realizing he's not going to do you much good, and so you move on.

Which devil were you referring to here?

[meng]

Which devil were you referring to here?

The wrathful and peaceful deities met along the Bardo Thodol. Curiously, it is the wrathful appearing deities which are benevolent, once you overcome your fear of them (liberation), and it is the peaceful appearing deities which can seduce you back into the karmic world through reincarnation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol

[dobro]

I understand your meaning now. I didn't understand before, because you said 'the devil', which suggests Satan.

[meng]

This link explains it in a pretty clear manner. I think the actual book is an interesting and possibly eye opening read.

http://www.deathreference.com/Sy-Vi/Tibetan-Book-of-the-Dead.html

[dobro]

However you view death and the devil - they are challengers, whatever else they are - I can see how an imminent death or the devil *could* function as a teacher who was 'hidden' before, simply because you weren't paying attention.

[meng]

Si.

[martin]

R.e. Brad's comments..

I've felt for a long while now that 55's lines are more about darkness that about 55's light. Most of her lines seem to oppose the central meaning.

I don't see an opposition really. I think 55 is basically about acting (thunder) in accordance with your guiding light (fire), i.e. your clarity, your understanding, your ideals, what you believe to be true, etcetera.
Circumstances are indeed 'dark' in line 2, 3 and 4, yet you can still act in this way and if you do there will be 'good fortune' in line 2 and 4. It's less clear in line 3, but there is at least no error when you 'do 55'.
The exception is line 6, the time of 55 is over and if you continue to act 'from your light' you will only isolate yourself. It's time to listen to others.

Makes sense?

[charly]

Well, excuse us, but anything that has udders with four long nipples looks funny and distracting... :rofl:
Luis:

Perhaps the breast of an «express cow», a cow that gives hot milk? Maybe the origin of the idiom «el que se quema con leche cuando vé la vaca llora».

Un abrazo,

Charly
____________________
(1) «the one that it is burned with milk when it sees the cow cries» Babelfish dixit.