57.3

[maremaria]

Trying to grasp the meaning of that line.

Any thoughts ?

[trojan]

My associations are times where one is going over and over the same ground, worrying and penetrating the same thing, asking the same questions. You can only examine evidence so many times at some point a decision needs to be made. I think it can be a line of painful indecision, of not knowing your own mind, being too open to outer influence to the extent where you can get kinda immobilised

[maremaria]

Thanks Trojan

Maria

[charly]

Trying to grasp the meaning of that line.

Any thoughts ?

Maria:

Wilhelm / Baynes meaning is close to be wasting your time tinking and thinking when it's time for action.


Nine in the third place means:
Repeated penetration. Humiliation.

Penetrating reflection must not be pushed too far, lest it cripple the power of decision. After a matter has been thoroughly pondered, it is essential to form a decision and to act. Repeated deliberation brings fresh doubts and scruples, and thereby humiliation, because one shows oneself unable to act.
Whilhelm / Baynes

I believe that «penetration» isn't a very good translation for 巽sun, the name of H.57 whose actual meaning is something like «submission», thus:

Repetitive submission → humilliation
The own character 巽 depicts two persons kneeling in front of a table.

Be respectful but don't become a brown nose.

The word that W/B translate «humilliation» is 吝 lin4 whose actual meaning is «stingy».

Being excessively submissive we are not generous with anybody.


Nat King Cole sung:

Siempre que te pregunto
Que cuándo cómo y dónde
Tú siempre me respondes
Quizás, quizás, quizás

Y así pasan los días
Y yo desesperado
Y tú, tú, contestando
Quizás, quizás, quizás,

Estás perdiendo el tiempo
Pensando, pensando
Por lo que más tú quieras
Hasta cuando, hasta cuando

...

from: http://www.mp3lyrics.org/n/nat-king-cole/quizas/


It's not a warning against excessive penetration, by the contrary is a warning about lack of penetration.

Yours,

Charly

[trojan]

I think being overly submissive is more or less the same as over penetrating. When one is too submissive its because one doesn' t know ones own mind, is not confident, always looking for signs from others, rethinking ones position

Anyhow I think it is about going over and over things as well as being too submissive but as i say these two qualities can go together easily.

[maremaria]

Charly,
I like that song a lot .

Nat King Cole : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBmZ1pgYdcc

Cake : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ePnsb-Wpk

you said "It's not a warning against excessive penetration, by the contrary is a warning about lack of penetration"

Do you think this line says that excessive thinking refer to the way we approach things. Instead of get in we stay in the surface of the matter ?

I'm looking to LiSe's and Brad"s inteprentation but haven't reach to a clear understanding.
-------
The relating hex 49 talks about right timing of pursue something . A radical change to have success must done when time is favorable.

Could 57.3 to 49 advise to change our way of approaching a matter and not necessarily to act immediately ???

[charly]

... Anyhow I think it is about going over and over things as well as being too submissive but as i say these two qualities can go together easily.
Trojan:

Quite true. It reminds me of Uriah Heep's umbleness and his inner longing of power.

I met Uriah in the street, who reminded me of the promise I had made to take tea with himself and his mother: adding, with a writhe, 'But I didn't expect you to keep it, Master Copperfield, we're so very umble.'

I really had not yet been able to make up my mind whether I liked Uriah or detested him; and I was very doubtful about it still, as I stood looking him in the face in the street. But I felt it quite an affront to be supposed proud, and said I only wanted to be asked.

' Oh, if that's all, Master Copperfield,' said Uriah, 'and it really isn't our umbleness that prevents you, will you come this evening? But if it is our umbleness, I hope you won't mind owning to it, Master Copperfield; for we are well aware of our condition.'

from Ch.Dickens' David Copperfield
http://www.online-literature.com/view.php/copperfield/17?term=uriah%20heep


Yours,

Charly

[charly]

Charly,
I like that song a lot ... Do you think this line says that excessive thinking refer to the way we approach things. Instead of get in we stay in the surface of the matter ? ... Could 57.3 to 49 advise to change our way of approaching a matter and not necessarily to act immediately ???

Maria:

I also like it a lot. Nat singing is waiting for a more positive response than «maybe» [«quizás»], he is waitng and despairing, himself is not acting inmediatly.

When somebody encourage you for acting inmediately it could be an interested advice (like Nat's song).

I wonder why Wilhelm/Baynes translated «penetration» while they had translated the title as «The Gentle». Why not «repeated gentleness» or «double gentleness»? Maybe the queue of another secret thinking.

Tanks for the links.

Good: «advise to change our way of approaching»

Yours,

Charly

[meng]

Wind obeys forces which generate it. I think that's perhaps where submission applies. Never got the gentle attribute as a meaning, since wind is often strong and even fierce. Wind does by nature what nature causes it to do.

I agree with Trojan on line 3's meaning. If something is being beaten to death, that's gotta hurt whatever it is that being beaten. Second and third guessing typically makes only more confusion. I don't see this line suggesting inappropriate submission, just compulsive behavior.

[charly]

... wind is often strong and even fierce. Wind does by nature what nature causes it to do...
... Second and third guessing typically makes only more confusion. I don't see this line suggesting inappropriate submission, just compulsive behavior ...
Meng:

You have all the reason. Wind is not always gentle but it's always penetrating. That's the nature of wind.

Maybe W/B did better translating H.57 as «Penetration» the same they did with 57.3. Maybe 57.3 is a warning : beware of compulsive behaviors.

Second parts not always are good as first. Twice can fail.

Yours,

Charly