Gateways n Stuff...

[meng]

Controlled neurotic states: Secrets of Divination
hero's gateway through the unconscious

So, at the suggestion of Listener, I'm starting this thread, which may go absolutely nowhere, but what the hey.

I guess a place to start could be:

Do you believe in magic?
Do you employ magical belief in your divination practices?
Care to share?

What ceremonial rites do you perform, as part of your Yijing divination practice?

What cultural symbolism do you cross-associate, with your Yijing divination practice? i.e. mythology or texts.

What religious forces (or what might be defined as such) do you employ or tap into, in your Yijing divination practice?

What particularly defined psychologies are most at work, in your Yijing related thoughts and divination practices?

Or anything else you may wish to share about magic and or your divination practice. If you perceive there's no magic at all at work, please share that, and why that is your position. Anything at all, really.

I understand that your beliefs and such may be too private to simply lay out on a table for all to see. I'm not going to say very much about my personal practices, on this thread. To me, those practices are very subtle, not made of gross matter, and so I treat them delicately. But, any thoughts you may have to share on these sorts of things, please do.

Bruce

[hilary]

You know, this is absolutely 100% on-topic for 'exploring divination', isn't it? Let me move it over there.

Oh, and what do you mean by 'magic', as something to believe in?

[meng]

By magic I'd mean beyond natural explanations, but that's just what it means to me.

[wealth]

I believe in magic, yes. Do I cast spells, no.

Magic for me is more connection to the divine rather than love spells and the like.

I ask the divine (God in my case) to help me and He does or does not. Divination for me, then, is a way of connecting to God or his messengers for the answer--or pointers--for whatever question I ask.

I do not have any particular other than using a mat--a bamboo sushi rolling mat--and throwing the coins. There are small points here and there I do, like keeping asking the question every time I throw the coins and waiting until I feel ready to throw them.

[lightangel]

By magic I'd mean beyond natural explanations, but that's just what it means to me.

Magic for me is more connection to the divine rather than love spells and the like.

The mere act of throwing coins while asking a question is an act of magic, so to speak.

[maremaria]

Once, a Greek poet, Giorgios Seferis, was asked about what have influenced him. He replied: "Don't ask me who's influenced me. A lion is made up of the lambs he's digested, and I've been reading all my life."

Its not easy to make fine distinctions and put them into categories. Like I said in the other thread is everything and nothing specific.

[martin]

I don't often consult the Yi but when I do I don't have the feeling that I engage in some kind of religious or magical or supernatural or esoteric or shamanic or or or .. practice.
It's as normal as, say, phoning a friend. Part of life like everything else.
And ceremony, well, I nearly always use an online oracle, and I just click that <profanity> mouse! Perhaps a bit more thoughtfully than on other occasions, but there is not much ceremony there I'm afraid. :D

If this sounds rather blasphemous :mischief:, of course I know, it's all supernatural and even 'holy' in a way. But to me it's not like the natural is here and the supernatural there. I'm not aware of any 'great water' that I need to cross to get from the one to the other or back. Maybe a little stream sometimes, I do get my feet - or tail? - wet once in a while. But that's all. :)

[sparhawk]

Once, a Greek poet, Giorgios Seferis, was asked about what have influenced him. He replied: "Don't ask me who's influenced me. A lion is made up of the lambs he's digested, and I've been reading all my life."

Ha!! I love that! :D

[listener]

I am with Martin, in that I don't see any separation between the natural and the magic.

I truly cant comprehend the argument on the other thread...because to me , everything in this world,without exception, is a "story" with multilevel meanings. That is why fiction novels, film and theatre are so enticing, enthralling. Even the I Ching would not be meaningful at all if it did not speak to everyman(everywoman).

The magic of divination is to me about the bridge it creates between levels of being and understanding. The beauty of it is that I dont even have to consciously understand all the levels of meaning, nor even to explore them consciously, if I dont choose to. I can just move with the immediate response and take it literally, or dwell with the reading and consciously explore the emerging of the "sub-conscious"

Either way, I do this with an absolute trust in the process, understanding that by engaging the I Ching, I have engaged deeper levels of KNowing. It helps me to dance with Life:

"Reasoned knowledge proceeds one step at a time, and the results of one step can, and often do, overturn the results of the previous step - hence those moments when when we think too much and cant firmly decide what to do. Reasoned knowledge proceeds from information of which we are consciously aware-- ony a partial sampling of our total knowledge.

Intuitive knowledge on the other hand proceeds from everything we know and everything we are. It converges on the moment from a rich plurality of directions and sources -- hence the feeling of absolute certainty that is traditionally associated with intuitive knowledge." Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art by Stephen Nachmanovitch

By the way, I always thought "improvisation" was random...but this book has helped me to see it is NOt random at all, it is the result of very fine, second to second, listening with the "inner ear" to ALLOW the perfect beauty of the individual Flow ...which has a very intricate design.

"As our playing, writing, thinking, speaking, drawing, or dancing unfold, the inner unconscious logic of our being begins to show through and mold the material. This rich deep patterning is the original nature that impresses itself like a seal upon evrything we do or are"

Sorry to quote so much, but this guy says so beautifully what I intuitively know but couldnt find the words for. Maybe that is what the Yi does for me too.

[meng]

For me it's 29.

Magic can only be experienced in a state of madness. And like the danger of making a face and having it get stuck like that, deliberately experiencing too much madness for the sake of magic can get you stuck like that. On the other hand, if you're always trying to play it safe, you may never take that step beyond your comfort zone.

[dobro]

One problem with this thread is that 'magic' needs to be discussed and defined. What do you mean by magic? Meng's definition 'beyond natural explanations' isn't very useful, I think. That sounds like 'if it can't be explained the way things are normally explained, then it's magic'. So you say 'the sun rises in the east' and I say 'the planet spins into the light zone' - does that mean I'm talking magic? Nah.

For me, magic is a ritual action designed to achieve outcomes in the physical world by manipulating forces and centers of energy in the non-evident world, usually by using analogy.

[martin]

For me it's 29.

Magic can only be experienced in a state of madness.

I don't know, I think you can only experience magic when you are utterly sane. :)
But it's true that getting into a state of 'madness' may help if your mind & heart are too closed. It can open the gate to the magical.
It can also close the gate of the looney bin behind you though. :D

[martin]

One problem with this thread is that 'magic' needs to be discussed and defined. What do you mean by magic?

Perhaps what we are talking about is not magic per se, but more a certain openness to the unknown, or the miraculous? Or to what Seth and Jane Roberts called 'unofficial reality'? I like that term.

[meng]

Is effectual prayer magic? Can it rightly be called a reasonable and sane thing to do?

[meng]

Can expecting to receive a wise and usable answer from throwing three coins be considered a sane thing to do?

[meng]

Sane

1. mentally balanced: mentally healthy and able to make rational decisions

2. reasonable: based on sensible, reasonable, or rational thinking

Magic

1. conjuring tricks: conjuring tricks and illusions that make apparently impossible things seem to happen, usually performed as entertainment

2. inexplicable things: a special, mysterious, or inexplicable quality, talent, or skill
watched the dancer's feet work their magic

3. supposed supernatural power: a supposed supernatural power that makes impossible things happen or gives somebody control over the forces of nature. Magic is used in many cultures for healing, keeping away evil, seeking the truth, and for vengeful purposes.

4. practice of magic: the use of supposed supernatural power to make impossible things happen

As I see it, magic is contrary to sanity by definition. Expecting a miracle is insane, for example. Even hope borders on insanity, since it's based on what isn't yet real.

[meng]

How about a fisherman's lucky hat, a golfer's lucky socks, or a salesman's lucky tie? Sane behavior?

[martin]

It's contrary to the official definition of sanity in our society, yes, but does that make it not sane?
In some other cultures using magical healing methods is considered perfectly sane.
And what would people of those cultures think about open heart surgery or taking blue, white and purple pills everyday?
Madness! :)

[meng]

If we can't talk about definitions in terms of "official" definitions, then there's no point in trying to talk about things like sanity and magic. I mean, we need some common reference point, right?

That magic practice is common to other cultures, does that make it any more explainable, and thereby any more sane? No, it simply means other cultures have no issues about using magic. They have no need to rationalize it.

Modern science being seen as magic (by, say, primitive cultures) makes a great point: there are explanations for magic, but if we knew what they were, might it no longer be magical?

[meng]

So what I'm saying is, insanity is the window into what we don't yet know. Somehow I felt that divination should fall in there, somewhere.

[martin]

If we can't talk about definitions in terms of "official" definitions, then there's no point in trying to talk about things like sanity and magic. I mean, we need some common reference point, right?


I think the most important reference point of sanity is inside. I mean, we can feel if we are balanced or out of balance. I don't see much need for external official criteria, unless somebody is so far off that he/she can't feel that he/she is off anymore, perhaps.

[sparhawk]

Please allow me to say that "sanity," like pretty much everything else, is contextual to the culture that defines it as a rule-of-thumb for measuring behavior. Thus, we cannot, without prejudice and misconceptions, judge other cultures take of it. We can, however, attune ourselves to cross-cultural experiences and come to appreciate what their concepts are. Arrogance and attribution of "weirdness" has never helped anybody not bent on creating conflict.

So, I pretty much like Bruce's take. It keeps an open mind..., without our brains falling out. :D

[martin]

So, I pretty much like Bruce's take. It keeps an open mind..., without our brains falling out. :D

Umm, you mean pretty much what Martin says? :D

[dobro]

As I see it, magic is contrary to sanity by definition. Expecting a miracle is insane, for example. Even hope borders on insanity, since it's based on what isn't yet real.

You've posted various dictionary definitions of magic, but you haven't plumped for one yourself. What do you mean by 'magic'. You started the thread. Ante up.

DEPENDING ON YOUR DEFINITION OF MAGIC, magic isn't insane if you've experienced it as real in your own life. If you are au fait with miracles, if you've experienced them, then expecting a miracle is not madness, but sanity. If you have experience of miracles, then it would be insanity NOT to expect them to happen.

Meng, you're employing the word 'insanity' in a particularly narrow and less than useful fashion here. Check what Luis has to say about sanity - it's culturally determined on the one hand. But it's also a personal decision - check what Martin says. For example, a lot of people would think that my tossing three coins and reading an old Chinese book in order to find more meaning in my life is insane. I tolerate those people's ignorance, because *I* know I get meaning out of it. *I* know (that in this instance at least lol) my socially unusual behavior is sane. So, if they don't like it, screw 'em. :)

Luis, Martin and I are three of the sanest people I know online. You can trust us and a lot of what we say. Except for Luis sometimes lol.

[dobro]

Can expecting to receive a wise and usable answer from throwing three coins be considered a sane thing to do?

"1. mentally balanced: mentally healthy and able to make rational decisions

2. reasonable: based on sensible, reasonable, or rational thinking

According to both definitions you posted, expecting to derive usable meaning (and possibly high-level meaning - wisdom) from consulting the Yi using the coin method is a sane thing to do, if that in fact is your experience. If you get meaning out of consulting the Yi, then it's sane. (And if you get meaning out of consulting the Yi, then it would be insane to say that Yi consultation isn't sane.)

If the Yi works for me, then it's rational and sane to use it.

But this thread's chasing its tail unless we really decide, as a group, what 'magic' and 'sanity' mean to us. The words are too vague. Until we arrive at a group decision about how we're going to define the terms, the discussion in this thread is just mud wrestling. You're kinda cute in the speedo and the mud though.

[meng]

The idea I've presented isn't complicated, it's just a way of seeing.

Thanks for your time.

[trojan]

I have to say sanity/insanity is by no means always culturally decided unless you are using them as purely descriptive terms - which seems to be the case here.

I see insanity as psychosis. Schizophrenia is schizophrenia whatever country you are in and there is some fairly good evidence for it having a strong hereditary link. IOW it is an illness affecting the thinking. Yes there are plenty of cases where people have been labelled 'schizophrenic' when they were not just because they acted outside norms but still it is considered a condition in its own right with recognisable symptoms. And there are other kinds of mental states that can make one temporarily or more permanently psychotic. Severe depression and manic depression for example can i think lead to some kind of psychosis.

Psychosis is where one is totally out of touch with reality and I don't think its an especially magical experience as it often involves a great deal of suffering.

If you use sane/insane as purely descriptive terms ie you are not making reference to any recognisable set of symtoms then its so personal a definition that it is not very useful as a base for general discussion.

In any case to define sanity as 'reasonable or logical thinking' is clearly inadequate since most people make decisions each day not based on logic at all - that hardly makes them insane.

Oh incase anyone should say this is 'cold water' pouring or something it isn't. I was just waiting for someone (else) to point out that 'insanity' isn't just a descriptive term. It s also a medical/legal term for someone who is not accountable for their actions since they know not what they do.

[martin]

I have to say sanity/insanity is by no means always culturally decided unless you are using them as purely descriptive terms - which seems to be the case here.


Yes, agree, it's what I meant when I wrote "I don't see much need for external official criteria, unless somebody is so far off that he/she ...".
Not that it's always easy to decide what is cultural and what is 'real'. For a while the idea was fashionable that it was all cultural. If I remember correctly the author of "The myth of mental illness" believed that.
Would be nice if it were true. If you are insane, you only need to change location and you are healed. :)

[martin]

I found a link to the article "The Myth of Mental Illness" by Szazs (the book with the same title was published later).
It's rather dense (or is it just me? I'm not very clear headed today, cough :rolleyes:) but perhaps interesting for those who are not familiar with his views.
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Szasz/myth.htm

[trojan]

Yes I think it was Laing who for a while proposed schizophrenia was an entirely sane response to an insane environment. He showed conversations in Sanity Madness and the Family to illustrate how he thought the way families treated an individual made them 'mad'. For example a child says he likes to do a, b or c and the parents talk over her and say she does not like to do a,b and c and so on so all the time her identity is negated so she fragments herself to cope.

Well I think theres much evidence that stressful family background increases chance of schizophrenia but I think eventually Laing himself backtracked on saying all mental illness was totally socially created. I think this was after a period where he had to actually work with a group of schizophrenics very closely

I think we may be off topic though and be headed back to open space

[martin]

Yes, Laing, and Bateson and his 'double bind'. What happened to all these people and their ideas?
But you are right, we are a off topic and might end up in the open looney bin if we go on like this.

Insanity is hereditary; you get it from your children. (Sam Levenson) :D

[maremaria]

From my self-made kind-of –dictionary

Magic : You can’t grab magic with the interpretation of magic, neither with the description of interpretation of magic. Either you sing or shut up. You do not say what I do is singing. “Elytis”

For me magic is when something breathtaking happens to me. Its can be something simple or of greater importance. A meaningful coincidence, a call/mail from a person exactly the time you need him/her , the flow of some matters, an answer of Yi that struck me, the invisible things that suddenly become visible and sometimes the magic of the little creature inside me.

Probably you are talking about something different from what I say but this is , more or less , how I perceived magic.

Bruce said “For me it's 29.Magic can only be experienced in a state of madness….” I can recall some 29 moments that some people could describe as madness, foolishness or more mildly irrational behavior. Then , for me something magical happened or let something to happened . what exactly happened or how isn’t that important to me.

Some time ago , my little niece and I went to a store to buy her a present I had promised her. It was not the first time we went there, we go quite often to buy food. The store has those automatic door and when we were near them they opened . She look at me with wide opened eyes and told me. Look !! Those doors are magic !!!

[sparhawk]

Umm, you mean pretty much what Martin says? :D

Must be reading diagonally... :rofl:

[sparhawk]

Luis, Martin and I are three of the sanest people I know online. You can trust us and a lot of what we say. Except for Luis sometimes lol.

That means we are "insane" to someone, somewhere... :D And listen to what Dobro say about the one with pet dragons... :rofl:

[sparhawk]

I think much of Bruce wrote is tongue-in-cheek, sans emoticons... :D

[meng]

Hi Luis. No, I was serious. This is something I've spent a lot of private time contemplating. I can't account for it being met with so much opposition, but whatever.

[meng]

Maria has no problem with it. That's because she approaches it as a child.

[meng]

1.4 Somehow dancing in the abyss. Without fault.

To find new ideas, dare to dance in the abyss and depart from certainty. Inspiration isn't found within fixed rules, old habits or formalities. Creativity isn't making something happen, it is allowing it to happen through you and the tools you work with.

LiSe

[martin]

Hmm, yes, no emoticons, and still no emoticons ..

[martin]

Some time ago , my little niece and I went to a store to buy her a present I had promised her. It was not the first time we went there, we go quite often to buy food. The store has those automatic door and when we were near them they opened . She look at me with wide opened eyes and told me. Look !! Those doors are magic !!!

Wonderful :) If children behave like that it's magic too. Breathtaking.

[maremaria]

Yes. She already knew how the doors work, but this specific moment she thought that something magic happened to be as faster as she can to the toy’s department
Kids…. :rolleyes:

[lightangel]

I really don't see the opposition in this thread, Meng. Perhaps I see just a little bit of overthinking? Dobro was trying to define what 'magic' is, to be able to be on the same ground when talking about this subject and then perhaps everybody else went on a tangent a bit, talking about sanity and insanity and so on...

I think you explained further what you meant and maybe people didn't reply directly to your questions (not even Maria, whom you seem to think was the only one not opposing you), but that was just the way things went and not because people opposed your point of view.

Very 38.6, all this :)

[meng]

I really don't see the opposition in this thread, Meng. Perhaps I see just a little bit of overthinking? Dobro was trying to define what 'magic' is, to be able to be on the same ground when talking about this subject and then perhaps everybody else went on a tangent a bit, talking about sanity and insanity and so on...

No he didn't. He wanted a definition. I gave him MSN's dictionary definition, and he debated that. The finite definition, which Dobro, Martin, and initially Hilary seemed to think was so important, had little bearing on what I was talking about.

As far as the rest, this is too much like work. It seems to me the automatic reaction to any remotely new idea or new person on this forum is "No." I've watched it many times repeat itself. Like that haiku fellow who browsed through awhile ago. I thought he was a breath of fresh air to read, but as usual he was treated as an adversary, I guess cuz he thought he had found something pretty special to share. But that kind of open sharing isn't at all what this place is about.

So you see, angel (who comes out only when she smells blood), I don't take it personally any more. I know it's not just me.

Whatever.

[maremaria]

IDo you believe in magic?
.

Or anything else you may wish to share about magic



I
I think you explained further what you meant and maybe people didn't reply directly to your questions (not even Maria, whom you seem to think was the only one not opposing you), but that was just the way things went and not because people opposed your point of view.

Very 38.6, all this :)

Hey ... I answered directly to the first question and to the "or else " ...:rolleyes:

Its this a test ? :confused:

[topal]

1.4 Somehow dancing in the abyss. Without fault.

To find new ideas, dare to dance in the abyss and depart from certainty. Inspiration isn't found within fixed rules, old habits or formalities. Creativity isn't making something happen, it is allowing it to happen through you and the tools you work with.

LiSe


Excellent thread. Beng has hit on something here that does merit re-visiting at the very least.

Assuming that we are rational, reasonably objective beings for a moment, I would say that "magic" in this context and before it was hijacked by Church and the Occult (Magick) is the realm of the child for sure. But like in 17 are task is to strive to embody the best of the child psyche and allow it live through us as an adult. This life is very VERY difficult for most people to find and then retain that sense of wonder let alone genuine creativity.

Myths/archetypes/folklore – it’s all part of the Magic you mention. They form such an important part of the emotional psyche be it a tribe, community or the child. Myths are very common in dreams they have a curious connection to the earth and nature. Creative Imagination is the pathway by which stories and storytelling shape and form cultures. I think in this technological age we have very much lost that connection. Most of us are products of that loss but we don’t even know it. If we’ve grown up in a wholly urban environment and the 21st perception / conditioning that goes with it then it’s little wonder that we don’t know what we’ve lost. How can we if we’ve never known it? We are "consumers" we are urban beings forced to be plugged into a very synthetic life. Obvious maybe but do we really grok how deep that loss is?

Ever look at children aged five or six when they are being read a story? Totally in another reality - completely entranced. Their mouths hang open and their eyes wide. Often the stories are fairy tales - folklore. They are designed precisely to nourish the developing emotional body of the child with precise archetypal motifs. The history of the oral tradition down through the ages remains remarkably consistent in this way. It was a spiritual science imo as fresh and natural as well…Nature, because that was essentially the source of such story telling.

When a child doesn't regularly receive this “magic,” this nourishment - and increasingly they don't - then I think this can leave something missing in their emotional development that can manifest as all kinds of conditions later on. Sure, there are many other factors - but lack of attention to the creative nurturing of the child's myth-making process is a big part of that I think.

This is why Trojan was correct in what she said: "Tv ads are what they chant in the playground not ancient mythology."

Exactly and look around us. We are dying inside.

This Magic is vital and it is the province of the child first and foremost as a developmental stage. The I Ching retains absolutely this multi-dimensional magic within it because I think it is a codified template of the Universal Soul. (That's a mouthful..)

Well...I know what I mean :rofl:

Actually, the above reminds me of a couple books to recommend:

Joseph Chiltern-Pearce's Magical Child From child psychologist's view (but very unorthodox, beautifully so)

The hard to come by Fairy Tales by Rudolf Meyer - chock full of the esoteric symbolism of the oral tradition from the German angle.

Quote from Magical Child:

"When the capacity for abstract creativity and pure thought does not develop properly, the solution is not to try to force earlier and earlier abstract thinking, as we now try to do. Rather we must provide for full-dimensional interaction with the living earth without allowing abstract ideas to intercede or obscure, so that a sufficient concrete structure may be built from which abstractions can arise.

Our 3-billion-year heritage is truly magnificient; the promise given us is infinite in scope. But this biological plan must be nurtured, and in order to do so, we must first recognise that such a plan exists and then learn something of what that plan is about. We knew about this plan when we were about six years old and a great excitement, longing, and joyful anticipation filled us. Something else happened, of course; and even as it happened, we knew intuitively that it was all wrong. This primary knowing got covered up by anxiety conditioning, which was deep and pervasive, so ingrained, and so continually reinforced and amplified on every hand that the deep knowing has been lost to us."

This deep knowing he mentions can definitely be characterised by one path or branch of the soul reality, which is Myths and folklore imo. There's real emotional wisdom for the child and it is designed for the child so that we can truly integrate such a structure later on in order to be healthy adults.

Topal

[martin]

I don't understand what's going on, Bruce. There was no automatic 'no', only reasonable and polite debate. And friendly too, no insults, nothing like that.
Giving much thought to something doesn't automatically lead to agreement of others, you know that of course.
You don't like debate anymore? You did as far as I remember.
Ah, but you stopped smoking! Is that the problem? :D

[lightangel]

I think this has been an interesting thread too. I really enjoyed the discussion about what is magic and about what is sanity.

I disagree with Meng in that he thinks he introduced a new idea that was opposed by "the others". I think people have talked about this kind of things before. He didn't even share his own take on it. I really don't see all the 'resistance' he sees but that is life, we can't always agree on everything. But it is a provocative subject and I'm sure I would have enjoyed it as well if people had also shared their more 'magical' i ching applications.

For what is worth, I don't think anybody really opposed Electraglide's haiku idea either. I did oppose his tendency to be arrogant and plain out insulting but that is also a matter of opinion, perhaps.

As for whether I only come out when I smell the blood, who knows, Meng, you might be right. I don't really claim to know all of my inner motivations 100% of the time. In fact, I am not always sure of why I come to read the forum as often as I do and I often think I will never post again but then the "spirit" (or the blood :D) moves me, like it moved your friend Electraglide, and I post all over again. Not easy to explain, perhaps magical, my tendency to post.

[trojan]

As for whether I only come out when I smell the blood, who knows, Meng, you might be right. I don't really claim to know all of my inner motivations 100% of the time. In fact, I am not always sure of why I come to read the forum as often as I do and I often think I will never post again but then the "spirit" (or the blood :D) moves me, like it moved your friend Electraglide, and I post all over again. Not easy to explain, perhaps magical, my tendency to post.


Well i can't see that its anyones business to comment on your motivation for posting. This is after all the Exploring Divination area not the "exploring Lightangels inner motivations" area.

Though personally i always thought you came out to flirt with the guys :flirt: (;))

[hilary]

Just spent the afternoon and evening playing Schubert's Unfinished and Liszt's Faust Symphony. All 70+ minutes of it. Phew.

Looks like I missed a lot here - even if no universally-agreed-upon definition of magic. To me the idea includes love charms and whatnot, things designed to control other people in creepy ways, so I'm leery of the word. Since Bruce must mean something else, I thought I'd ask. And then got swallowed up by a monstrous symphony, which is still rampaging happily round my head.

Topal, I love this quote -

"When the capacity for abstract creativity and pure thought does not develop properly, the solution is not to try to force earlier and earlier abstract thinking, as we now try to do. Rather we must provide for full-dimensional interaction with the living earth without allowing abstract ideas to intercede or obscure, so that a sufficient concrete structure may be built from which abstractions can arise."

That sounds to me like perfect advice for divination. Don't try to abstract 'what the line means', instead dive into what the story is, what the carts, oxen, constellations, legend, myth, tigers, birds, nomads, soldiers, ancestors, earth altars, dragons and all feel like to live with. Then you start getting a feel for the thing.

Anyway, belief in divination is definitely what would normally be called 'magical thinking'. We're expecting a physical process to be meaningfully connected with us, just because we want it to be. There's no rational, logical, a priori reason for that to work - no known means by which it possibly could - and saying 'in my experience, it does' doesn't amount to a rational argument. We're all being irrational, or non-rational.

I find that strangely easy to live with. ;)

Every now and again, the non-rationality expands, and I find myself living in an oracle. Books I pick up happen to echo hexagrams, landscapes I go through happen to be made of trigrams, tigers spring up all over the place (startling, in rural England), and so on. Magical thinking run amok - and certainly well within some definitions of insanity.

Anyway, that's how it works out for me. Beyond the act of sorting beads (and asking some odd questions meant especially as 'invitations') I don't do anything to invite more correlation in: no rituals, no feng shui cures. From time to time it shows up anyway.

I'm rambling. Blame Liszt - he started it.

[lindsay]

I think there is a distinction between magic and miracle. Both involve the same quality of being outside the limits of normal human experience. Magic is something people do or try to do deliberately. Miracle is something God does. Or, to put it another way, it is the Black Swan, the 1 in 10,000,000,000 probable event. A monkey with a typewriter actually writes "War and Peace" occasionally. I see very little magic in the world, but miracles occur daily.

Lindsay

[heylise]

A child comes into a room to show his toy rabbit which can talk and asks what do you do or think or feel when yours talks? Everyone in the room tries to find a definition for what talking rabbits say, or how or why they talk. Child sneaks away again to the garden, to hear what his rabbit tells him.

Maybe nobody said ‘no’ to the child, but did anybody listen?

I think Maria understood.
“She already knew how the doors work, but this specific moment she thought that something magic happened to be as faster as she can to the toy’s department“
She knows how to listen to the rabbit, and her little niece does too.

As far as I know magic is not something you can define. If you do, you end up in a dictionary but far away from anything magical. You can believe in it, make it, be open for it, find rituals for it, live it, fear it, love it, but when you try to think about it, it flies away.

Meng: “What particularly defined psychologies are most at work, in your Yijing related thoughts and divination practices?”
As soon as I start to think, my reading makes no sense at all anymore. I have to literally open the 'gateways n stuff' of my brain, sweep thoughts out of the way, expect a miracle.

When I manage to do/be that, I get a great reading, but more important, it changes me, I feel that I live in a real true way. I don’t know if I use the reading for finding this light, or this light for finding the meaning of the reading.

LiSe

[listener]

Too much intellectual defining magic, wrings the magic sponge dry. Magic is not something we do or try to manipulate with ( thats the wiccan magic)

there is inherent magic in life's design... to be open to it, you need to suspend the mind..become awake to it. no effort

Tossing the coins is not magical, the magic is recieving a reply, a reply that sends me over the bridge where I access deeper knowing. That's magic, the magic of Life's design, because the reading made a connection evident. And Life is all about conectedness, most of which we remain blind to for the most part.

I have a magic tortoise at mydoor. His smal green head and shell body are what I see when i come home, and the connection is made. No longer just a ceramic turtle, but an oracle of my safety, and my trust. My magic tortoise is on the job, and I know he is on the job because of how I change when I see him, the cells in my body change, lit up by the knowing of evrything I have conciously or Un-conciously associated with magic tortoise

I walked in the park and found a perfect phallic stick, long with the big rounded head. "look at this," I said to my friends, and one said "thats a keeper." true, the magic for me was my connection to the stick that screamed creative power. The earth talks to us, and evryone else too, and the connection is magical if we listen and see, because life has a magical design..

and who hasnt grown up being read stories that connect you to life. that is why children sit spellbound at a story

If we could alwys see the intricate design behind life, we might not call it magic.....we'd see it as natural....... but we would be awed

[maremaria]

..... We can, however, attune ourselves to cross-cultural experiences and come to appreciate what their concepts are.......


I missed that . I like it !

This is the only forum I post so not much experience of how forum should really work. But I think is a great opportunity we have to talk with people from cultures different from our own. It’s a virtual company but it could be some people gathered together drinking wine and talk. A 61.2 moment.

Does it matter who is wrong or who is right and who is the one who can judge that ?
And how harmful can be if we listen to one that says something different from what we know or believe?

The other day someone here said that the ways I use to understand Yi answers is not valid. I really was annoyed but when I hear the details behind that rational I understand better why she said that. But still I think is a pity to throw away something we really don’t know about it. I don’t say to agree or disagree but just listen. There are some times here I miss that.

“A lion is made up of the lambs he’s digested”. The lion is the only one who can decide for himself what to eat and what not. Should we change his diet ? We are not allowed to do that, imo.
Here is a big table with a lots of food. Everyone brings his/her own food to share it with the others and everyone can eat what s/he likes. I don’t like fish , but I don’t think is polite to say to the one who brings fish “ Hey , the food you brought is awful, I don’t like it. Don’t bring fish again !” Some others like fish , I have to respect them.


(Btw, Luis I write the name wrong. It can be Giorgos, Georgios or George but not Giorgios.)

[meng]

Well i can't see that its anyones business to comment on your motivation for posting. This is after all the Exploring Divination area not the "exploring Lightangels inner motivations" area.



Oh shush, y'old sourball.

[dobro]

A child comes into a room to show his toy rabbit which can talk and asks what do you do or think or feel when yours talks? Everyone in the room tries to find a definition for what talking rabbits say, or how or why they talk. Child sneaks away again to the garden, to hear what his rabbit tells him.

Maybe nobody said ‘no’ to the child, but did anybody listen?

Well-spotted. :)

A child comes into a room to show his toy rabbit, and I listen to the child in terms of toy rabbits, and if I like the child and the look of the toy rabbit, I even have a conversation with the rabbit as well as the child. An adult comes into a room to talk about magic, and I assume we're talking adult talk and so we need to know exactly what kind of magic we're talking about - rabbits out of hats, toy rabbits you have conversations with, voodoo charms, or an ill-defined romantic atmosphere full of meaning and portent. Sometimes I'm like the adults in The Little Prince who just don't get it. But if I know that the situation I'm in is The Little Prince, then I'm okay and I go into Little Prince mode. When your attennae are so alert that you can pick up on exactly which sort of mode the adult you're dealing with is in, you're in a position to have a good time and get something out of it.

[martin]

As far as I know magic is not something you can define. If you do, you end up in a dictionary but far away from anything magical. You can believe in it, make it, be open for it, find rituals for it, live it, fear it, love it, but when you try to think about it, it flies away.
...............
As soon as I start to think, my reading makes no sense at all anymore. I have to literally open the 'gateways n stuff' of my brain, sweep thoughts out of the way, expect a miracle.


I know what you mean but it's not like that for me. What is the difference?
I was wondering about it and then I remembered what Shunryu Suzuki once said. It was something like this:

"Before Zen, mountains were mountains and clouds were clouds.
Then, mountains were no longer mountains, and clouds were no longer clouds.
Now mountains are mountains again, and clouds are clouds."

When mountains are no longer mountains, and clouds no longer clouds, that is the time of magic, the time of miracles.
I know that magical land, I spent a lot of time there, and it was, well, magical. But I'm no longer there, I left a long time ago and since then mountains are mountains again and clouds clouds.
So in a sense you could say that magic left me, flew away from me, at least for the time being (perhaps it will return in the future, who knows) but I can't say I miss it. Life goes on and there is something else now. I wouldn't know how to define it but it feels good :)

[lightangel]

Though personally i always thought you came out to flirt with the guys :flirt: (;))


me flirt? :o
But yes,the emoticons do play a huge part in my motivations. :cool:
I can't help it that they are so damn cute.:)

[dobro]

Life goes on and there is something else now. I wouldn't know how to define it but it feels good :)

Yeah, you grow up, and if the development is balanced, then you get something good in exchange for what you leave behind. The boys get new and better toys. :)

But there's something in what Heylise is saying about thought being second-best. For me, thought is one of the toys I'm starting to leave behind now whenever I can free myself of it, because there's something better - 'no thought'.

I'll define my terms, too :). When I say 'thought', I mean any kind of animated mental activity, either intellectual or emotional or even sensation.

[lightangel]

A child and his talking rabbit!:rolleyes:
It fits. The child now seems to be throwing a tantrum:rant:because nobody listened.
I hope he doesn't scare his rabbit away :bows:

[sparhawk]

As far as I know magic is not something you can define. If you do, you end up in a dictionary but far away from anything magical. You can believe in it, make it, be open for it, find rituals for it, live it, fear it, love it, but when you try to think about it, it flies away.

Daodejing, Chapter One...

[martin]

I'll define my terms, too :). When I say 'thought', I mean any kind of animated mental activity, either intellectual or emotional or even sensation.

Yeah, no thought = throw your whole psyche out of the window. :)

[maremaria]

A child and his talking rabbit!:rolleyes:
It fits. The child now seems to be throwing a tantrum:rant:because nobody listened.
I hope he doesn't scare his rabbit away :bows:

Beautiful.....

[dobro]

To the tune of Dylan's 'Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You'

Throw my psyche out the window
Throw my body out there too
Throw sensations out the door
I don't need them anymore
Cuz right now I am consciousness of you

[trojan]

If we want to use words to communicate then its only natural we might ask one another to clarify how they are using words. This doesn't signify opposition. It signifies wanting a better understanding so that when we talk about something we are talking of the same thing.

. Its kind of worrying when thought becomes a bad thing. Without some kind of discrimination we would have to blindly accept all that was put before us.

The odd thing about this thread is there never was any opposition because nothing was ever put forward to oppose. All that was needed was a bit of further clarification if any discussion were to ensue. Discussion needs words - we can't just sit here and feel the vibe of not thinking lol

When I'm discussing something I use thinking, when I'm dreaming or meditating I'm thinking in a wholly different way or sometimes not thinking. Each and every one of us switches modes several times a day.
What I'm getting at is kinds of thinking are not something that some of us have and some of us don't as I felt LiSe was implying. We all think in rational/non rational modes all the time.

People see the word magic in so many different ways, with different connotations its quite understandable someone asks how we are using the word here.

As for the child/rabbit thing, I'm an adult, I don't aspire to being a child. Children may be innocent but lets not romantisise them as the the holders of all wisdom. They can be wise, they can also be raging egomaniacs when they don't get their way, lol.

I think in the rabbit story those who questioned definitions of words were meant to identify with the adults and the implication was those who wanted to be clear on terms were jus not 'getting it'. Well I think we are all equally capable of getting it - its just we are not mind readers.

[dobro]

I don't think Heylise was romanticizing 'child's mind' (but you'll have to check with her to make sure) - I think she was just pointed out that Meng was approaching the whole thing with a different mindset (but you'll hve to check with meng to make sure). I mean, Meng himself said "The idea I've presented isn't complicated, it's just a way of seeing" so *he* knew what he was talking about, and didn't see why he should explain what he meant.

And I don't think she was criticizing rational approaches with tightly-defined terms, I think she was just arguing for making room for other approaches (but you'll have to check with her to make sure).

But anyway, what do *you* mean when you say 'magic'? For me, the primary meaning is 'magick' - Aleister Crowley stuff - maybe white, maybe black, but always looking to manipulate outcomes using analogous ritual. The reason I'd like to explore this is cuz of the possible connection with Yi consultation. Is using the Yi a form of magic the way I've defined it? I think the answer is - no, not really. It doesn't seek to manipulate events so much as access information that isn't ordinarily available to you, information that makes you wiser than you would otherwise be. I think it's sort of like going to a teacher and saying: "I'm kind of stupid about this - what do I need to be paying attention to right now and how should I be viewing it and maybe how could I be handling it a bit more skillfully?" I think that's legitimate, because it's a learning experience and it seeks to put me in harmony with myself and the universe. But magic per se is really dubious in my view, cuz it's so *manipulative* of outcomes. It doesn't try to learn, it tries to get what it wants.

But having said all that, there are people in the other forum who are constantly seeking secret information about other people in order to increase their chances of getting what they want. They're using the Yi magically, in service of their ego's agenda in order to manipulate situations to some extent. And that's why I'm so critical of that approach - I think it's 'magickal' to some extent - which makes it suspect. But it ain't a black and white situation, cuz primarily the Yi deals in information, not in outcomes. It's up to *you* to work with the information it gives you to do something about it.

[martin]

Thinking is not the problem. Nor is defining. It doesn't close gates. On the contrary, it can open them.
A clear precise intellect is an asset, in every walk of life. Mystical life too.
But the isolated intellect, intellect without feeling, that is a problem. For real understanding - what Heinlein called 'grokking' - you need the whole of yourself. Intellect alone is not enough.

Hmm, I now get the feeling that this is so trivial that it doesn't need to be said. Open door? Oh, well. :)

[trojan]

But anyway, what do *you* mean when you say 'magic'? For me, the primary meaning is 'magick' - Aleister Crowley stuff - maybe white, maybe black, but always looking to manipulate outcomes using analogous ritual. The reason I'd like to explore this is cuz of the possible connection with Yi consultation.
.

Dunno I don't use the word. On a feeling level its a word that makes me feel faintly sick with something like an association with Disney films and candyfloss but thats a purely personal thing. But I think 'magic' is one of the words at the moment that means very different things to different people

[trojan]

Thinking is not the problem. Nor is defining. It doesn't close gates. On the contrary, it can open them.
A clear precise intellect is an asset, in every walk of life. Mystical life too.
But the isolated intellect, intellect without feeling, that is a problem. For real understanding - what Heinlein called 'grokking' - you need the whole of yourself. Intellect alone is not enough.

Hmm, I now get the feeling that this is so trivial that it doesn't need to be said. Open door? Oh, well. :)

Yes thats what I meant, and yes i also felt it hardly need to be said, but it seemed there was an anti thinking/defining/rational thought thing going on

[martin]

Is using the Yi a form of magic the way I've defined it? I think the answer is - no, not really. It doesn't seek to manipulate events so much as access information that isn't ordinarily available to you, information that makes you wiser than you would otherwise be. I think it's sort of like going to a teacher and saying: "I'm kind of stupid about this - what do I need to be paying attention to right now and how should I be viewing it and maybe how could I be handling it a bit more skillfully?" I think that's legitimate, because it's a learning experience and it seeks to put me in harmony with myself and the universe. But magic per se is really dubious in my view, cuz it's so *manipulative* of outcomes. It doesn't try to learn, it tries to get what it wants.


I also find that very dubious. I don't like it. Of course getting what we want is to a certain extent part of life. I just made coffee, that's what I wanted and I got it! :cool:
But I prefer to keep 'manipulation' minimal. Usually I also feel no need to know what's around the next corner, so I'm rarely interested in predictions. Why would I want to know how the story ends? It spoils the plot!
Magical, the word is not so easy to define for me, life is 'magical', what does that mean? That there is a hidden order behind it. Hidden connections between events, that sometimes surface. Something like that.
In any case, it's not the Crowley stuff.

[dobro]

Okay, so you and I don't like the Crowley type of magic.

So, if you look at 'magical' in terms of the hidden order behind things, well, for me that's not magical, that's scientific. That hidden order is scientific law (whether it's been discovered and formulated or not). The hidden order is so much of the way that I view things that I take it for granted, so there's nothing magical about it at all. It's a not very nice thing to say (but that's cuz I'm a not very nice person in some ways) but when people from Missouri *don't* see the hidden order working behind the surface of things, they appear rather stupid to me. ("Come on, numbnuts, get with it - there's way more to reality than mere sense data!") So for me, that's not magic, that's just the way things are. And of course, that's why I use the Yi, cuz it helps me appreciate and work with those hidden patterns. :)

If you want to call it magic, that's okay with me I suppose, but it reminds me a bit of the Disney candyfloss that had Trojan putting her fingers down her throat. I'd rather just call it 'the hidden order'. (Or if I'm feeling romantickal, the 'mystery'.)

[maremaria]

.........Magical, the word is not so easy to define for me, life is 'magical', what does that mean? .

I recall in a thread where I asked how would you explain to a kid what Yi is and your answer was : “You can ask it questions and when you do an angel will answer them. “

Is something I have in my mind. A simple answer that explains everything. No definitions ,no descriptions but nothing is missing.

Its a "definition" I wrote in my alternative-definitions- book

Maria

[martin]

If you want to call it magic, that's okay with me I suppose, but it reminds me a bit of the Disney candyfloss that had Trojan putting her fingers down her throat. I'd rather just call it 'the hidden order'. (Or if I'm feeling romantickal, the 'mystery'.)

Lol, okay, call it 'the hidden order' then, to avoid any trouble with Disney floss.
Like Trojan I in fact don't use the word magic(al), so I was looking for something that I maybe could call magical. And then, this hidden order .. don't know anything else that comes close at the moment.

Of course what is hidden for me and just about to be revealed might not be hidden for you at all and so you may take it for granted, there is nothing magical about it. Not for you.
If that is so then, if there is any use for the word magical (and still trying to avoid the floss), it would refer to something on the boundary between knowing and not knowing? Still mostly hidden but beginning to reveal itself? This is relative then, relative to the knower and his or her awareness.

Perhaps it is what Meng meant when he talked about 'madness'. There is also a boundary there, between the sane and the mad. And on that boundary, that is where the magical is?
But I must leave that to you, Meng, it seems you are hiding at the moment :)

[trojan]

I recall in a thread where I asked how would you explain to a kid what Yi is and your answer was : “You can ask it questions and when you do an angel will answer them. “

Maria

Thats very good but do you think a kid would be satisfied with that and say "okay thanks Maria" (or Martin). Judging by the kids I've known they'd be more likley to say "What kind of angel ?" ;)

[martin]

I recall in a thread where I asked how would you explain to a kid what Yi is and your answer was : “You can ask it questions and when you do an angel will answer them. “

Is something I have in my mind. A simple answer that explains everything. No definitions ,no descriptions but nothing is missing.


Ah, I remember :) A simple answer that explains everything, there can be something magical about that, yes. Similar to finding a simple elegant solution for a complicated mathematical problem. 'Aha!'

[martin]

Very good but do you think a kid would let you get away with that and say "okay thanks Maria". Judging by the kids I've known they'd be more likley to say "What kind of angel ?" ;)

When I was a kid I probably would have said "I don't believe in angels". In fact, when I was five, I said to the kindergarten teacher that I didn't believe in the bible. She went to my mother to complain about it! :D

[trojan]

Martin

Of course what is hidden for me and just about to be revealed might not be hidden for you at all and so you may take it for granted, there is nothing magical about it. Not for you.
If that is so then, if there is any use for the word magical (and still trying to avoid the floss), it would refer to something on the boundary between knowing and not knowing? Still mostly hidden but beginning to reveal itself? This is relative then, relative to the knower and his or her awareness.




I think its the same with the word 'supernatural'. To someone who has regular interaction with the spirit world spirits are not supernatural but natural. To someone who has no or little awareness of spirits then they might class them as 'the supernatural.

But if I had to define magic satisfactorily for the sake of this discussion I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said it might "...refer to something on the boundary of knowing and not knowing ". Like you say once its known its not magical, when its unknown not magical - it s that borderline where the feeling of magic may be, yes.

[maremaria]

Thats very good but do you think a kid would be satisfied with that and say "okay thanks Maria" (or Martin). Judging by the kids I've known they'd be more likley to say "What kind of angel ?" ;)

Would you say to a 3-years old that there is no Santa ? I wouldn't .

Santa : Old man, red clothes, brings presents
Angel : Young man/ woman white clothes, wings

Simple.

[trojan]

Would you say to a 3-years old that there is no Santa ? I wouldn't .

Santa : Old man, red clothes, brings presents
Angel : Young man/ woman white clothes, wings

Simple.

:confused: no I wouldn't tell a 3 year old there was no Santa. My point was that kids are inquisitive, they don't just swallow any old thing and they ask 100s of questions. They're not even simple questions they ask. If Santa is due and you have a 3 year old you have to have a few answers to hand to questions like "how does he get in" and "where will he put the reindeer" and so on. They are not empty headed accepting little creatures. Look at Martin for example, a rebel at 5 years old, lol

[maremaria]

:confused: no I wouldn't tell a 3 year old there was no Santa. My point was that kids are inquisitive, they don't just swallow any old thing and they ask 100s of questions. They're not even simple questions they ask. If Santa is due and you have a 3 year old you have to have a few answers to hand to questions like "how does he get in" and "where will he put the reindeer" and so on. They are not empty headed accepting little creatures. Look at Martin for example, a rebel at 5 years old, lol

ah, yes you are right about the 100s questions . I have two nieces, very demanding one. But what I was saying is that they initialy believe in Santa or Angels. As we believe in Hope , miracles etc. they just need information to get the whole picture. To make their "myth". If there is a Santa, he can always find a way to bring the presents.

I agree , as you said, that "They are not empty headed accepting little creatures' but in a way they are "empty headed" as they are more open to the "magic" thing. There is more space and less resistance in their head/heart/soul as in ours, the wise mature grown ups.

But then they grown up ... and their "magic" is diminish for the sake of rational.

Do we believe in more than what we see, explain or understand ?
Madness or sanity ?

[sparhawk]

Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.

Friedrich Nietzsche