How to Learn the Yijing Gig?

[wealth]

For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Surely there must be more than just that?

:confused:

[meng]

Doing is the harder part.

[topal]

For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Surely there must be more than just that?

:confused:

Are you actually wanting a serious reply to that?

Topal

[martin]

For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Surely there must be more than just that?

:confused:

If the Tarot was catholic the Yi would be protestant. :) The Yi gives you text instead of images and the symbolism is more austere and black/white, less rich and colorful than the symbolism of the Tarot.
Of course there is more richness and color in the Yi than what meets the eye initially, you have to get used to it, also because it uses symbols from a China of long ago and that is a bit far from home for most westerners. The Tarot is closer to home.
Still, the Yi is not the Tarot. And I think these two oracles also tap a different kind of knowing and understanding. The Tarot seems more 'astral', the Yi more 'etheric'. It's not exactly that the Tarot is more emotional and the Yi more intellectual but there is a similar difference.
Anyway, perhaps the Yi is not for you or perhaps it is, it depends on what you want and like, but if you like oracles, I think they can complement eachother. The Tarot can give you one perspective, the Yi another.

[sparhawk]

For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Ask Confucius?? :D

[dobro]

For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Surely there must be more than just that?

:confused:

Use it every day. After a while, you'll be more familiar with it.

[bricogirl]

I don't know the Tarot so I can't comment on the differences between it and the I Ching. I'm just getting started with the Yi but I find it to be a source of much wisdom, perhaps plenty for a lifetime.

I'm wondering what the experienced readers out there think of how long it takes to get to know the Yi and become comfortable in using it? I started out by falling in love, became hopelessly confused, was led to buy Hilary's course which cleared up a lot of things, than proceeded to make a fine mess of my new relationship. Now at my 48th query I am calming down and feel the conversation is back on track.

Can some of you more experienced folks indicate how long it took you to start feeling really comfortable with the Yi and maybe some highlights of the relationship? Some perspective like that would surely help me along at this point.

Kind Regards - Kim

[meng]

I don't know the Tarot so I can't comment on the differences between it and the I Ching. I'm just getting started with the Yi but I find it to be a source of much wisdom, perhaps plenty for a lifetime.

I'm wondering what the experienced readers out there think of how long it takes to get to know the Yi and become comfortable in using it? I started out by falling in love, became hopelessly confused, was led to buy Hilary's course which cleared up a lot of things, than proceeded to make a fine mess of my new relationship. Now at my 48th query I am calming down and feel the conversation is back on track.

Can some of you more experienced folks indicate how long it took you to start feeling really comfortable with the Yi and maybe some highlights of the relationship? Some perspective like that would surely help me along at this point.

Kind Regards - Kim

Tarot seems good at giving a picture of the thing inquired of, but for me it's rather two dimensional, in that there's no philosophical theme to it as a whole. Or none I've found, at any rate.

IC can also, of course, give a picture of the thing inquired of, but whether real or made up in our own heads, it seems to point in a direction.

Your "falling in love" experience I can relate with. The first time a friend led me through the reading process, I was smitten - in love. It quickly became a way of life, as I became obsessed with it: over-used it, abused it, seriously misunderstood much of it; but in all that, I got the gist of its spirit or tao - and that became the real addiction. There's a sense of direction, though that sense has become more subtle, refined and realistic over forty years. It's something I can point to, even if I can't completely grasp it.

[martin]

Tarot seems good at giving a picture of the thing inquired of, but for me it's rather two dimensional, in that there's no philosophical theme to it as a whole.

Ay, don't let Tarot lovers hear that! :)
I'm less familiar with the Tarot than with the Yi but even to me the Yi seems relatively 'flat'. In musical terms, it's like the Tarot is a symphony and the Yi a piece for one instrument. And there is certainly no lack of philosophy or direction in the Tarot system. But it's maybe not so easy to grasp that direction, the guidance that it can give, exactly because it's richer and more complicated.

[sparhawk]

Ay, don't let Tarot lovers hear that! :)
I'm less familiar with the Tarot than with the Yi but even to me the Yi seems relatively 'flat'. In musical terms, it's like the Tarot is a symphony and the Yi a piece for one instrument.

:eek: What did you have for breakfast this morning?? I told you not to spike your morning coffee... :rofl:

[martin]

:eek: What did you have for breakfast this morning?? I told you not to spike your morning coffee... :rofl:

Ah, you didn't know? I draw a Tarot card every morning. If it's favorable I eat it, if it's unfavorable I go back to bed. :rofl:

[maremaria]

Hi Kim,

My experience with Yi it counts less than a year. Before that had no experience with Tarot or other similar things. I have heard about Yi but never did any effort to study it. Don’t know why I didn’t and why some months ago I did. Still now I can’t explain it, why this specific day , I googled “I ching” . Why I took those three coins and started tossing? Why I did open that door? And then , like you and Bruce also mentioned, me too felt in love , with all the pros and cons some of falling in love. First obsessed (did all those things Bruce mentions) then a little less obsessed and now little bit more relaxed. Now, when I don’t get the meaning of an answer I leave it for a while without thinking and suddenly from* no where* I hear the answer in my head.

I guess my relationship with Yi is as all those significant relationships that become better a better as time goes. You observe and understand the other part, you observe and understand you self and by letting thing flow, as the times allow, it becomes better. The less resistance and control from my part the better that relationship becomes. I hear thing I like, I hear thing I don’t like, I hear things I didn’t knew that I knew. I’m not sure if there will be any time that I might fell really comfortable regarding my understanding . To me see as an endless path , I’m walking the best way I can . Sometimes I ‘m satisfied with my progress , some others not. I move forwards, I move backwards and when I fell I have lost direction Yi somehow help me to correct my way.

Some days ago , I thanked a friend for helping me about a matter of mine. He said “I didn’t do that , you did “ . Same with Yi. It doesn’t actually do something for us, but Yi’s advises helps us to do what we have to do. And the more we trust what we hear , the more relaxed we are in that relationship.

Rambling here….. :rolleyes:


Maria

[meng]

Ay, don't let Tarot lovers hear that! :)
I'm less familiar with the Tarot than with the Yi but even to me the Yi seems relatively 'flat'. In musical terms, it's like the Tarot is a symphony and the Yi a piece for one instrument. And there is certainly no lack of philosophy or direction in the Tarot system. But it's maybe not so easy to grasp that direction, the guidance that it can give, exactly because it's richer and more complicated.

"Tarot seems good at giving a picture of the thing inquired of, but for me it's rather two dimensional, in that there's no philosophical theme to it as a whole. Or none I've found, at any rate."

[sparhawk]

Ah, you didn't know? I draw a Tarot card every morning. If it's favorable I eat it, if it's unfavorable I go back to bed. :rofl:

And all the cardboard doesn't give you a constipation?? You know, we ain't spring chickens anymore. Don't forget a tablespoon of olive oil to down the cards... Unless, of course, all your drawings are bad ones or you are in denial... :rofl:

[lightangel]

In denial? :rolleyes:
Do you know anybody who is *not* in denial, Luis?? :rofl:

But, surely, Martin exaggerates. If he liked the tarot so much he would probably be talking to other tarot-minded people in a tarot-minded forum.;)

I understand what Maria says about 'falling in love' with the Yi. But I think that this is, usually, mostly the 'new toy' feeling we all get when we find it and realize that there is something to it and it will answer your questions, and so on and so on.

But, this is very different from finding a religious or nearly religious depth in the Yi. I think it's a fine line, though. Sometimes I try to justify my position to it, sometimes I plead, sometimes I feel that 'it' loves me.. but I could very well be talking to another part of me, so it's not necessarily an object of reverence to me.

As far as 'learning' to use it, I guess very few people would claim that they know exactly how. I think that what we call intuition plays a huge role in this and you can't get lost in the words or the lines, you need to let it speak directly to you. Gut feeling kind of thing, some of us have much less than others, but that is how it works.

[martin]

But, surely, Martin exaggerates. If he liked the tarot so much he would probably be talking to other tarot-minded people in a tarot-minded forum.;)


Oh, I didn't mean to say that I like the Tarot more or that the Tarot is 'better' in some way. A symphony is not better than a piece for one instrument, just different.
For some purposes the Yi is better, for others the Tarot, and it's also personal of course.

And yes Meng, I know that what you said is your opinion .. :)

[sergio]

How to learn the Yi gig?The way I prepare for a gig is first I listen to the songs,then I make notes and then practice the hard parts or particular arrangements.Last,I go to band practice and play the songs,make or correct notes and when at home,listen and parctice more.When I get to the gig I forget all about it and trust my intuition,which is almost always right(provided I have done my homework).B a process of analogy learning the Yi is exactly the same:listen(read)make notes-practise everyday,correct notes,and when casting it forget all about it and trust your intuiton which should almost always be right(provided you have done your homework)Last,once the gig is over be aware of your hit and misses,take note of them and remember for there is always another gig to fix your mistakes or enhance your perfomance.The idea is to be able to forget the sheet music and fully concentrate in the art of playing music.The same with the Yi.Oh and don't forget the three commandemts of music:practice,practice,practice .Victory is a series of lost battles and perseverance is our only weapon to achieve it.Same with the Yi.
Sergio

[maremaria]

In denial? :rolleyes:
Do you know anybody who is *not* in denial, Luis?? :rofl:

But, surely, Martin exaggerates. If he liked the tarot so much he would probably be talking to other tarot-minded people in a tarot-minded forum.;)

I understand what Maria says about 'falling in love' with the Yi. But I think that this is, usually, mostly the 'new toy' feeling we all get when we find it and realize that there is something to it and it will answer your questions, and so on and so on.

But, this is very different from finding a religious or nearly religious depth in the Yi. I think it's a fine line, though.
.

Some people can function in an absence of heart. I’m not one of those people. :rolleyes: For me its vital to “fall in love”, “be in love” or just “love” with the thing I engage myself to. Enthusiasm, passion or love do not necessarily diminish, imo, the potential of going deeper than the surface. Masterpieces are creative not only because of the ability but also from the artist passion and *madness*. So being in love with something is not that negative to me… But maybe is what you meant by saying “I think it's a fine line, though” .

I guess that when this “new toy feeling” evaporates and we still “play” with that toy then it is not just the *attraction* that makes us stay there, but a *commitment *

[martin]

How to learn the Yi gig?The way I prepare for a gig is first I listen to the songs,then I make notes and then practice the hard parts or particular arrangements.Last,I go to band practice and play the songs,make or correct notes and when at home,listen and parctice more.When I get to the gig I forget all about it and trust my intuition,which is almost always right(provided I have done my homework).B a process of analogy learning the Yi is exactly the same:listen(read)make notes-practise everyday,correct notes,and when casting it forget all about it and trust your intuiton which should almost always be right(provided you have done your homework)

I like your analogy a lot :) But, there is a but .. I think we all tend to overestimate our intuition or openness, and underestimate our blind posts. When the going gets really tough, when the Yi tries to show us things that we don't want to see, will we then understand? Probably not.

That's why I find it problematic if people expect from the Yi or another oracle that it can act as a guide on the inner path.
An oracle can no doubt help there, but I don't believe that it can compete with a 'real' guide. For the simple reason that such a guide can and will correct us if we misunderstand. An oracle will try to correct but probably fail because we will also misunderstand the correction. It has no way to reach us other than through symbols that we can easily misinterpret.

I've seen it too often, people who for various reasons (lack of trust? unwillingness to surrender? fear?) refuse to get real guidance and instead stay with books, videos, oracles and so on. Until it finally dawns on them, maybe after twenty or thirty years, that they perhaps have acquired a lot of wisdom, but that it is unfortunately still mainly talk that they cannot walk.

Better get a real guide as soon as possible, I think. How to find one? That is another topic. :)

[sergio]

Yes,Martin,you are right.When playing music some musicians overestimate the value of inspiration(a different form of intuition).If you don't practice your instrument and your repertoire intution-improvisation-inspiration ,in a word music i,s really hard to come by.The so called muses can only help you if you previously help yourself.With the Yi is the same.One has to study,read and re-read until it is part of our mindset.Also we can read all the music books in the world(please,do not eat them-hence Luis' advise...)but if we do not get up and pick up the instrument and play nothing will ever happen.Same with the Yi. And last but not least,if we constantly question and overintelectualized what we play we do not communicate,first(nobody but us understand what we are playing)and second,our music never evolves (we are stuck in the same place-always correcting and recorrecting)Same with the Yi.As you see it has to be an unending path walked in perfect balance with a clear intent to move forward, sometimes you manage to get through on your own,sometimes somebody-something helps you but,above all one has to stay focused and balanced-that;s when the Yi yields it greatest influence.But we have to be able (or wiling)to put all we learned into practice,fearlessly...and there lies the challenge as you point out.There's no point practising my instrument and be the greatest at home-it means nothing without an audience.Same with the Yi-it means nothing if we dare not put it into action in real life.At least that's my personal opinion.We are all different after all,would'nt you say?
Sergio

[bricogirl]

It is so very helpful to me what all of you experienced people are offering here. Thanks to all. I am thinking now that I need to explore taoism to enhance this new relationship. Since the Yi is steeped in taoism, is that not where it is leading us?

Martin - pretty please, just a couple of words on that guide idea. Are you saying I need to get out there and find myself a guru? I've been trying to figure out the world all by myself for years now and the Yi has been the next step on this journey. What are you suggesting?

[martin]

Martin - pretty please, just a couple of words on that guide idea. Are you saying I need to get out there and find myself a guru? I've been trying to figure out the world all by myself for years now and the Yi has been the next step on this journey. What are you suggesting?

Well, if you can find a good guide on a path that suits you it will certainly be a great help. People often ask if they really 'need' a guide. The answer to that is that you can make some progress on your own but you will very probably get stuck beyond a certain point. And, in any case, you make things very difficult for yourself if you insist on doing it all on your own. Why would you? There is no need to, good guides are available.

Of course you have to be critical, not everybody that calls himself or herself 'master' or 'guru' is authentic. But I think you are quite safe if you look for guidance in one of the old traditions, such as Buddhism or Sufism. There are teachers there that not only have a high level of being but also know how to transmit their realisation to others. That is an art in itself.
I have mentioned only one reason (our blind spots) why an oracle cannot replace a real guide, but there are others. A guide can directly communicate his or her being-quality to you. This is invaluable and it's not something that you can get from books or oracles. You can also not 'invent' it yourself or find it in yourself without help, you wouldn't know where to look.
Transmission of 'being' is what Gurdjieff called 'C-influence'. There is no other way to receive this influence than in the direct contact with a more evolved other.

[lindsay]

I agree completely with Martin about the need for guides in life, but I would like to add a couple of points I think are often true. First, one guide is usually not enough over a lifetime. The "great person" who helps you now may later become helpless or even obstructive as you grow and confront different situations. Be prepared to seek help often and in many places. Second, not all guides are professional gurus. In fact, I personally have found more enlightenment from ordinary people who know how to live skilfully and deal wisely with their circumstances. Sometimes a good taxi driver or an excellent plumber have much to teach. Wasn't Jesus a carpenter? Third, many of our biggest problems in life are not "spiritual" in nature. Sometimes you need help understanding what is going on with your spouse, or why some people don't like you, or how to keep your finances straight. Dealing with these problems squarely requires the several different types of expertise. Chanting or praying or visualization may not be an appropriate response. Also, there are many stories about lecherous Zen masters and heroic accountants. Trust your inner voice.

Lindsay

[martin]

First, one guide is usually not enough over a lifetime. The "great person" who helps you now may later become helpless or even obstructive as you grow and confront different situations. Be prepared to seek help often and in many places.

Yes, you need to move on sometimes. It's not a decision that one should make lightly though, because it's possible that ones own resistance gets in the way and that there is nothing wrong with the guidance. And students do resist the teacher and the teachings a lot, you can bet on that. :)


Second, not all guides are professional gurus. In fact, I personally have found more enlightenment from ordinary people who know how to live skilfully and deal wisely with their circumstances. Sometimes a good taxi driver or an excellent plumber have much to teach.

Working with 'professionals' helped me to recognize the skill, wisdom (and beauty) of others. And I think I can safely say that 'ordinary' people don't exist for me any longer. Everybody is extraordinary. But I don't know, would it be like that if I hadn't met the 'professionals'? I doubt it.

[meng]

I think the qualities of a student are far more important than the qualities of the teacher. A great student will learn from everyone and everything.

[dobro]

The Buddha talked about how he taught for the sake of the middle group of students that came to him. He compared himself to a doctor treating people: some people the doctor treats die anyway despite the treatment, and some people will recover on their own whether they receive the treatment or not. Those are the two groups that don't really need the treatment, even if they receive it. But it's the middle group, the people who will recover ONLY if they receive the treatment, who really, really REALLY need that doctor. Ditto the people studying with the Buddha: there was the group that wasn't going to achieve any spiritual result no matter how many years they hung out with the monks, and there was the group that was going to achieve enlightenment whether they studied with the master or not. But it was that middle group, the group of people who could attain enlightenment ONLY if they received the Buddha's teaching - THAT was the group of people he really taught for, even though he taught everybody who came to him and asked for teaching. (It's my personal belief, by the way, that the middle group is the largest of the three groups - I think the distribution's like a bell curve.)

Okay, back to Meng's point about the student being more important than the teacher. I think it's true as far as it goes, but that it makes more sense if it's put in the context of the Buddha's story about doctors and spiritual teachers. The student's more important than the teacher? Really? Well, which type of student are we talking about?

[meng]

Well, good point. I guess I was talking about the exceptional, perhaps noble student or junzi. The treat in teaching a junzi is the wealth of insight and knowledge the teacher gains.

[dobro]

I'm a teacher myself. I agree with you about the student being the more important part of the enterprise - a good student learns no matter how lousy the teacher is. I have experience lol. The thing is, I teach language, and it's possible to learn a language to a great extent without the help of a teacher. You really can acquire a lot of language with books and CDs. But if we're talking inner transformation, developing 'new organs of perception', getting to and stabilising in new states of mind without going off the rails in the process, then I really, really think you need to be working with someone who's been there before you.

[meng]

Oh, I agree on the value of a good teacher. But if I understand correctly, we're talking about a comprehensive set of life skills and understanding, not being limited to say math, language or something skill-specific. Hence Martin's mentions of gurus and such. How many college courses major in this sort of thing? Where are reliable teachers to be found but in books and historical works? Well, I'll go with Lindsay's observation: they are found among the common folk, living a small life in a big way.

[lightangel]

Some people can function in an absence of heart. I’m not one of those people. :rolleyes: For me its vital to “fall in love”, “be in love” or just “love” with the thing I engage myself to. Enthusiasm, passion or love do not necessarily diminish, imo, the potential of going deeper than the surface. Masterpieces are creative not only because of the ability but also from the artist passion and *madness*. So being in love with something is not that negative to me… But maybe is what you meant by saying “I think it's a fine line, though” .

I guess that when this “new toy feeling” evaporates and we still “play” with that toy then it is not just the *attraction* that makes us stay there, but a *commitment *

Maria, I didn't mean for one moment to imply that falling in love is a negative thing. Not at all. I actually fell in love with the I ching myself. Falling in love is pretty much the 'new toy' feeling and it of course passes, unless you spend a lifetime asking 100 questions a day, which is still possible, I suppose:rolleyes:. What remains after? I wouldn't really call it 'commitment', that sounds a bit heavy, like the Yi would not like it if I did tarot sometimes:D. But I guess it's a relationship, between you and 'it'. And it can be called love. I just don't think it's a kind of reverent love, it's just love. And, how could love prevent you from going deeper with anything? It's the opposite, imo, so I never implied that.

It's just that, to me, going deeper doesn't mean figuring out the exact meaning of the chinese characters, or agonizing over this or that translation, about which one is right. The words are there, the symbols, the pictures Lise has in her website (I forget what they are called) and they all give you hints and they can mean so many things, go in so many different directions and the only reason some answers are more straightforward than others is because they resonate faster, more easily with us and our perception of the issue at hand. And, in this process, it helps a lot to hear what other people think, what they're interpretation is, it gives you more colors to play with, but it's you who has to complete the picture.

As for being a teacher, I think the Yi shows us and teaches us a lot about ourselves and the world , but not so much like a 'guru', more like those every day teachers that Lindsay mentions. They are everybody and everything, pretty much, as long as you are aware that this process of learning from them is going on. I also agree, by the way, that many times the help or insight we need is sometimes not spiritual at all, so a guru won't help you solve that. But the I Ching might:).

[martin]

But if we're talking inner transformation, developing 'new organs of perception', getting to and stabilising in new states of mind without going off the rails in the process, then I really, really think you need to be working with someone who's been there before you.

Yes, that is what I was talking about too. Of course I didn't mean to say that everybody needs to run for a guru or something, but if you want that 'transformation', well, I think that only very few people can do it without an experienced guide. Only the Ramanas but they are extremely rare, one in a million? Less?

[dobro]

Yes, it seems he was born to it - just a bit more karma to deal with in order to pop up to the top. And Gotama Buddha, for another example. But then, his mandate was to found a world religion, so he needed a head start and lots of personal initiative (before everything personal was left completely behind). But even Gotama had teachers before he made that final, individual, unguided effort that pushed him through.

[dobro]

Since the Yi is steeped in taoism, is that not where it is leading us?

Isn't it the other way round? Isn't Taoism steeped in the Yi?

As for where it's leading us, I'd say the answer to that question is 'inward and upward'. Which is where any genuine teaching leads us, not just Taoism.

[maremaria]

........ What remains after? I wouldn't really call it 'commitment', that sounds a bit heavy, like the Yi would not like it if I did tarot sometimes:D.
....


Hi Lightangel,
By commitment I didn't meant exclusiveness. That would be scaring and dangerous. :eek: I guess Yi wouldn't mind if you use other resourses too :)

[lightangel]

Maria,

It better not care if I use other resources.. after all, I allow him to talk to you too!:D

[listener]

I don't know the Tarot so I can't comment on the differences between it and the I Ching. I'm just getting started with the Yi but I find it to be a source of much wisdom, perhaps plenty for a lifetime.

I'm wondering what the experienced readers out there think of how long it takes to get to know the Yi and become comfortable in using it? I started out by falling in love, became hopelessly confused, was led to buy Hilary's course which cleared up a lot of things, than proceeded to make a fine mess of my new relationship. Now at my 48th query I am calming down and feel the conversation is back on track.

Can some of you more experienced folks indicate how long it took you to start feeling really comfortable with the Yi and maybe some highlights of the relationship? Some perspective like that would surely help me along at this point.

Kind Regards - Kim

I dont know much about the tarot either, but I really cant see the difference between reading "tons" of commentaries on the cards and the "tons" of commentaries on the yijing.

"The Tao" to my way of thinking is not a religion but a term for describing the WAY of Life, the flow of things/energy. You can either be in harmony with it, or seemingly at odds with it. To me Yijing is a guide for achieving harmony with the present moment. I see it as a very simple teacher, who gives very simple ( in essence) advice e.g.: wait, accept, gather , restrain, perservere, engage, and so on and so on. I fell in love with it too, but it was very much like the way I would love a wise old grandmother. she is not going to solve all your problems, or tell your future, but she knows your heart and she knows how life works.

[lightangel]

I very much like the way I would love a wise old grandmother. she is not going to solve all your problems, or tell your future, but she knows your heart and she knows how life works.

Love that:), it's exactly how I think it is.

[dobro]

I fell in love with it too, but it was very much like the way I would love a wise old grandmother. she is not going to solve all your problems, or tell your future, but she knows your heart and she knows how life works.

Love that:), it's exactly how I think it is.

Fair enough, but if you're lucky enough to have that kind of granny, then you're more likely to accept yourself and find yourself earlier on in life, rather than later when things have got out of tune and the path of pain is bringing you to see the need for adjustments. It's better to have that kind of mirror in your life than not to have it, is what I'm saying.

[meng]

Fair enough, but if you're lucky enough to have that kind of granny, then you're more likely to accept yourself and find yourself earlier on in life, rather than later when things have got out of tune and the path of pain is bringing you to see the need for adjustments. It's better to have that kind of mirror in your life than not to have it, is what I'm saying.

I find this so true. I was very lucky to have that kind of granny. And I do see what Listener means, likening Yi to Granny. It is like that for me too. While my parents were all about being the perfect looking family of the 50's, my granny was a racy pre-war French anarchist, always full of mysterious tales, which kept my older brother and I spellbound. It was she who really raised us. Yes, I like that grandmother/Yi connection a lot.

[dobro]

granyi

[maremaria]

I see it as a very simple teacher, who gives very simple ( in essence) advice e.g.: wait, accept, gather , restrain, perservere, engage, and so on and so on. I fell in love with it too, but it was very much like the way I would love a wise old grandmother. she is not going to solve all your problems, or tell your future, but she knows your heart and she knows how life works.

Listener, I liked a lot what you said here . Yi-grandmother and Yi-a very simple teacher.
I agree also with Dobro about the importance of that kind of mirror and I 'm "jealous" :bag: for not having such a Grandmother/father as Meng.

In my country, in our casual talks, we use mainly two words for teachers according to their rank. For those who teach till 6th grade teacher and all the rest professors (high-school professor-university professors etc.) . But we use also the word Teacher (no matter where one stands in the rank of education or out of the formal education system ) for some special for us person/leaders/guides.

Once I have listen to a very significant professor with a lots of titles and distinctions here and abroad. He was asked which title makes him fell satisfied for all his effort. He said something like that : When I met old students of mine after many-many years and they call me Teacher. A student of mine once told me, “Teacher, I miss you a lot but at the same time I don’t miss you at all because you are always here”. When I’m given such a title, when I’m called Teacher I think, Hmm, maybe after all, I have done something in my life. I believe, this is the thing that make me keep going and trying harder”.

For me those are the “real” teachers. It has not to do with titles, distinctions, and acquired knowledge but with this special wisdom of one who helps the student to discover his/her own teacher somewhere inside. (grown up ????)

For me . each time I ask a question to Yi , is like pushing the pause button for a while waiting for weather to calm and then act. Like a meeting of all the teachers I have in my life. Gathered all together, talking about the current situations, exchange opinions. They come, they talk, they go and then I have to decide.

[martin]

He said something like that : When I met old students of mine after many-many years and they call me Teacher. A student of mine once told me, “Teacher, I miss you a lot but at the same time I don’t miss you at all because you are always here”. When I’m given such a title, when I’m called Teacher I think, Hmm, made after all, I have done something in my life. I believe, this is the thing that make me keep going and trying harder”.


Yes, beautiful. I had similar experiences sometimes. Once at the start of a course a student said "do you know how much we value you?" I was blissed out! :)
I valued him too and many others. They teached me a lot. I have always loved teaching and what I find most rewarding is when the distinction between teacher and student disappears, when you become friends that both learn and teach.

[maremaria]

I valued him too and many others. They teached me a lot. I have always loved teaching and what I find most rewarding is when the distinction between teacher and student disappears, when you become friends that both learn and teach.

I guess it is then, when the real exchange begins.

Now I am curious . What do you teach?

[martin]

Math and physics usually, sometimes psychology. But I'm retired now. :)

[maremaria]

Thanks.

[listener]

For me . each time I ask a question to Yi , is like pushing the pause button for a while waiting for weather to calm and then act. Like a meeting of all the teachers I have in my life. Gathered all together, talking about the current situations, exchange opinions. They come, they talk, they go ......

This would be lovely exploration on a "going thru the gate".....following the voices of those who talk/opine....making all th connections, having the dialogue.....maria, I see you a writer, one who has a rich reservoir of wisdom, a lot of beautiful nuances and rich symbology.

if you were to write on the process of your readings, it could become a lovely project..a lovely tool. sometimes we dont even know the wealth we have to be expressed, until we start to write and it emerges. What you describe above is like a woman who runs with the wolves -and the ancestors; your wild nature emerges.......the woman who knows, instincts sharp. When you divine, you do, In a sense, "howl" and in howling, you find your pack gathering around you, assiting and nurturing.
you are a woman with a LOT to say, and you are capable.

[meng]

Because she's probably too timid or modest to post her blog link...

http://horseandmoon.blogspot.com/

[maremaria]

:blush:
:bag:

[listener]

ah-haaaaaa! lovely! thank you

[sparhawk]

Wow! Nice blog, Maria!

A 'thank you' to Bruce for the pointer. :)

[maremaria]

Now I can breath again……. Listener, thanks you for your warm words. You too Luis for your Kind comments about my blog. And Bruce, thank you…

:)
Maria

[lightangel]

Very nice, Maria :)

[martin]

Love it, Maria. :)

[maremaria]

Ligthangel and Martin , thank you both.

Everybody, you make my day today. Thank you. :)


Bruce, I put the blame on you for not be as productive as I had planed today… put since you really encourage me to write I won’t be angry with you. ;) Thank you

[topal]

"Because she's probably too timid or modest to post her blog link...

http://horseandmoon.blogspot.com/"


Yes, it's a "breath of fresh air blog" as I call them. Keep on writing Maria!

This is the beauty of the net - so much everyone can share, so much communication and inspiration possible - despite all the dross.

(love that sea pic.)

Topal

[topal]

Math and physics usually, sometimes psychology. But I'm retired now. :)

That's an interesting combo.

Are you interested/familiar with non-linear systems and mathematics of complexity and all that sort of thing? I find that fascinating though difficult to get my head around at times.

And what type of psychology did you study?

(this is the stripping Martin hour btw :D)

Topal

[maremaria]

Thank you Topal :)

[martin]

Are you interested/familiar with non-linear systems and mathematics of complexity and all that sort of thing? I find that fascinating though difficult to get my head around at times.

Yeah, it's complicated! :) Not realIy my thing, my focus was mainly on mathematical logic and analysis. But I know something about chaos theory and computational complexity (which has links with logic: Gödel's incompleteness theorem etc).
If you mean the Wolfram stuff, most of that is still on my loooooooooooooooong to-read list.

And what type of psychology did you study?
I specialized in the psychology of religion.

(this is the stripping Martin hour btw :D)
Blush! :D

[emc2cme]

Hi, Maria and Candid. I just read your blogs and love them. The imagery is breathtaking and the reflections thought-provoking. Wonderful!

I tried to send a comment at your sites, but couldn't read the Greek on one, and didn't find a place on the second. So please forgive me if I embarrass you by sending such effusive comments without even knowing you.

Take care, and please keep up the wonderful blogs. They're so inspiring:-)

Nancy (aka emc2cme)

[meng]

Hi, Nancy.

Thank you for your positive comments. If you would like to respond to Candid's blog, please feel free to use my IM on this site for now. I'd enjoy hearing feedback. I guess I really should include an email address on the blog for this purpose. Will look into that.

Thanks,
Bruce

[maremaria]

Thank you Nancy for your warm comments and sorry for the inconvenience. There are still some practical matters I have to take care re my blog. :blush:
You can either IM me or go to any blog at bloggers to see the equivelant translation of the text.

Maria

[fkegan]

The original post about the Yi oracles using the same words over and over reminded me of comments about how actors aren't much as artists since they just say the same words written in their scripts over and over again in every performance.

Actors point to their scripts as just background structure that builds an infrastructure over which they get to create fresh through their artistry anew with each performance. The words or scripts are just one element like the costumes, sets, characters, and staging that go into a full theater performance--It is the total artistry of the production that the audience appreciates.

With the Yi, the performance is staged in your mind, so just reading the words misses just about everything vital and important about the Yijing Gig. It is equivalent to reading Waite's book of Tarot commentary without looking at the actual cards or spreading them out in any pattern.

The wonder of the Yi is that it uses the same set of 64 hexagrams to answer any and all questions. The trick is that you only read some of the words for each answer and they have an uncanny ability to exactly describe, explain and advise about an in-depth answer to YOUR exact question from YOUR particular perspective.

There are a vast number of books on the Yi, so if you need lots and lots of different words those are available as well. In exact response to your question, 'how to learn the Yijing Gig?' One starts by framing your question which is like choosing an initial Tarot card to base a Tarot reading upon. You might as well start a journal and write your question down for learning purposes along with whatever remarks you care to journal about your question and/or the real life situation it arose from. Then you can use your books or whatever to cast an oracle and interpret it. Then journal your remarks upon the oracle and its interpretation. Then cast your Tarot for the same question and leave room in your journal for your later thoughts and reactions as things play themselves out.

As for my personal history with the Yi, I was shown a copy of the Wilhelm by a friend who was an early pioneer in the applied mathematics days of computer science (1969 at Brown University). He took me through casting the oracle and showed me the passages in Wilhelm to read. However, at that point my Yi adventure differed from yours apparently, I did not read a set of words on a printed page (though objectively that was what I could be seen to do) I heard some metaphysical sage considering my question and speaking his answer directly to me.

My experience in the world of the Yijing Gig, in your phrase, has taken many turns in the almost 40 years since then, including casting oracles incessantly, feeling addicted to casting oracles, understanding the inner workings of casting oracles (including first limiting myself to only casting with yarrow stalks until I learned to cast oracles as fast that way as by throwing coins), finding Wilhelm commentary literally exact, finding Oracle results incomprehensible, etc.

In 1973 I met Gia-Fu Feng at a Taoist meditation weekend, and went off to visit his Stillpoint Foundation for a few days' lesson in Taoist Non-Action. The next summer I returned and we translated the I Ching from his American Taoist perspective. Then I went off to law school taking 5 weeks vacation in Europe instead of mid-terms exams my second year.

On that vacation, I was explaining the Yijing to an astrologer friend in Belgium, when I realized that the meaning of the hexagrams was exactly contained in the details of the structure of the hexagrams. The hexagram is a graphic, gestalt symbolism of the 6- stages of changes with each stage either focus or background.

This new perspective made all the words in Yi commentary to be seen by me as costumes and reviews of these hexagram as repertory actors. The 6-line figures are line drawings of these actors performing the scenario conjured up by your casting an oracle of your question. The words are just the printed script they use to piece together your unique oracle presentation. Just reading scripts, especially those that are based upon drama much older and more exotic than Elizabethan Shakespeare, will not say much to you.

It takes a live performance where you find yourself intrigued by the subject matter or the personal style of some of the actors or how their scenario hits what matters to you before you will find anything interesting in the Yi. One begins learning the Yijing Gig by casting the oracle about personal questions you NEED answered and watching the drama unfold as they relate to you.

Some folks meet the Oracle of the Yi and join the repertory company as booking agent setting up venues for the Yi actors to stage their shows in their minds or on their websites. You chose to ask on this site how these antique scripts of Yijing commentary can be considered powerful drama that can hold an audience in these times and in your appreciation.

At that level your question, in relation to the Tarot, let me suggest that you need to flesh out and costume your Yi oracles so you can recognize them in terms of your Tarot card pictures. By the bye, if you get a copy of the Pamela Coleman Smith painted deck (Waite-Rider) you can find great meaning in just looking at the cards. Although they are always and all ways the same printed images, you can see different bits highlighted in response to different Tarot spreads.

The words of the Yi commentaries have a similar power of local variation and personal appeal in the context of your personal oracles. The two requirements either way are that you must cast an actual oracle based upon your personal question---and--you must actually need an answer that works for you.

Start your journey with your own oracle cast. If words still make no sense to you, then
come back to the shared readings forum on this web site when you have an actual oracle you have cast for an answer you need but cannot quite accept or understand.

Good luck upon the Trail,

Frank