Asking for help

[hilary]

I said in the last 'Friends' Notes' that I'd make a 'news post' soon... here it is. Actually, it's less news, more soul-baring and Radical Change and very, very un-businesslike. I'm going to share where I've got to with Clarity, where I've failed, and where I need your help (lots of it). So I suggest you fetch yourself a tall glass of something and/or a generous supply of chocolate. Here goes...

I've been working full time on Clarity now for going on for eight years. I've always wanted to do two things with it: share the I Ching, and make a living. Well, I can chalk up one success there, largely thanks to you extraordinary people here, and one failure.

I've never mentioned this before - partly out of sheer embarrassment, partly because I've kept telling myself I hadn't made a success of it yet, but I was laying foundations for next year and building a business. It's taken some time, but hints of the real world are starting to percolate through to me. If I'm not making a living, then I'm not running (much less building) a business, I'm indulging in a supremely time-consuming hobby.

Don't get me wrong - there is no hard luck story here. Far from it: David's happy to provide for us both, and does so with the kind of effortless ease that comes with genius. Definitely no hard luck here. :)

Of course I have ambitions, but that's not the point at all. The point - well, the point comes where two facts intersect. 1) I'm giving my life to this and 2) I'm making no contribution to our home, beyond filling one corner of it with typing noises for about 10 hours a day. I'm kidding myself, and this is not good.

What to do about this? For one thing, I'm stopping my 'next year' rationalisations. It has to be this year that something changes. Not to get all the way to being able to fund a mortgage, that'd be unrealistic in the time, but I want to reach £1000/month by December, and I want that to be part of a rising trend, not a blip.

And if I don't make it, I'm going to stop.

I wouldn't shut the whole site down, don't worry. I'd leave the information pages up, fund the forum for a while and put up a big donations button to pay for it in future. I know people value this community, so I'm sure that would be OK. I'd just shut down the 'products and services' part, and go in search of another way to earn a living. I have no clue what, and absolutely no interest in thinking about that, because I don't want this to happen.

I think that covers the 'where I've got to' part: either the end or the beginning. Now for the 'help!' part.

Here it is, short version:

What I-Ching-related thing can I create, write or provide that you would like to buy?

Not an easy question to answer out of the blue, I know, but can you think of a better forum to ask difficult questions? ;)

The longer version will come in a series of quick polls, surveys, questions, soundings and so on over the coming months. This isn't just cosmetic. If you want something, I'll create it (if I can); if you don't, I won't. Instead of disappearing from the forum for months to cook up some surprise new product/ service, and then sticking my head out of the kitchen briefly to tell you what I've come up with, I'll be here asking you to write your own menu. (And possibly also the recipes.)

Meanwhile, if you could tap into your inner creative genius and bring forth some answers to the short version of the question, that would be brilliant.

Thank you. :bows:

[Tony_L]

Hilary,

Thanks a tall order. Here are some random thoughts and personal observations. My own interest in the Yijing is out of fascination with the oracle and the wisdom it contains. I had assumed that you were making a living as a Yijing consultant from the nature and quality of your site, so your post took me by surprise. It's good that you have stated a specific goal, since that gives a clear focus to what you want to accomplish. One thing I have learned over the years is that to learn something it is best to go to the most expert people in the field. In this case, that would mean contacting people who are successful making a living with the Yijing. Most people with great expertise are more than willing to share their knowledge with a genuinely interested "aspirant". My impression is that Stephen Karcher has been successful in making a living through the Yi. I don't know him but I would suggest that you contact him directly and seek his advice on your ambitions. Worst case is that he might say 'no'. There may be other people in the field who could also help. If you are unable to speak directly with the experts, at least try to figure out what they do well and how they succeed at what they are doing (by succeed here I mean earn a living).
If your goal is to be a consultant, then you need to become well known. Ways to do that include teaching, lecturing, writing, publishing, etc. There may be a local radio or TV program that would welcome you as a guest. You might offer a free lecture to a business club (here in the US we have "Rotary Clubs") to acquaint the business community with the value of Yijing consultation. If there are journals that go out to the Yi community, write articles for them. Some communities have "New Age Fairs" where people can set up a booth and do consultations to get themselves known in a larger community.
One thing working against you now may be the world's economic situation. Here in the US we are in the midst of a recession. People have very little discretionary money to spend.
A final thought is that if it's too difficult to make a living just doing the Yi, then maybe you could find a related job and do the Yi part-time in a complementary way. For example, I believe that Sarah Dening is a psychotherapist who uses the Yi with her clients. Such an arrangement can bring a balance to life.

In any case, best of luck with your endeavors.

Tony

[miakoda]

These ideas come to mind:

A. Sell yarrow stalks and bags of marbles or coins. Annoying, but probably somewhat lucrative.

B. Become a 'life coach' and use the I Ching in your one-on-one sessions.

C. Write your own book and, if you can't find a publisher, sell it online on the Clarity site.

D. Then, hire a publicist.

[hilary]

Tony, Miakoda, you're wonderful. Thank you. I'd started looking at the 50 views and 0 replies to this thread, and you posted just in time to rescue me from getting paranoid. ;)

Tony, you have a point there. I've tended to try to model myself on those who make a living online, in various different fields, but not on people who make a living as diviners. They all seem to have followed your idea C, Miakoda (not the selling it from my site part necessarily, but the rest). I do know Stephen, so maybe he'd be happy to talk with me about what's worked and what hasn't. Of course he has the kind of expert status I don't have, and can't exactly earn between now and December.

I wonder if it would help me to get out from behind the computer and start giving live talks, workshops etc? On the one hand, it's hard to see how it could be better (a fraction of the 'catchment area', much higher expenses), otoh I'm taking seriously what you say about modelling success.

If your goal is to be a consultant...

My main goal is to help people get the full benefit of a connection with (/through) Yi - which means that giving readings needs to be replaced as the 'main thing' by providing information and teaching the occasional class ( :) ) . So I'm hoping that members who haven't yet bought from me will jump into this thread and say, 'Ah, that's because what I really want is this...' - be that different information, or service, or just a different format.

Meanwhile, maybe I should start writing that book. Not that that's going to get finished this year (or decade), but it's a good statement of intent, isn't it?

[sparhawk]

Meanwhile, maybe I should start writing that book. Not that that's going to get finished this year (or decade), but it's a good statement of intent, isn't it?

Perhaps you should, yes. Remember that, whatever his achievements as a Yi student, Karcher had his visibility greatly augmented by his publishing. So, time to keep typing towards something to put on shelves... :D

[hilary]

Encouragement appreciated :)

Now... any requests for products/ services I could create this year, so I don't have to pack it in?

[toganm]

Encouragement appreciated :)

Now... any requests for products/ services I could create this year, so I don't have to pack it in?

Hi Hilary,

Before doing anything i.e. creating products/ services, I would suggest to follow rules of SMART (Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Timely).

Some of the things you mentioned do fit into the category, yet are they realistic. For example you mentioned: to reach £1000/month by December Is this realistic or a wish figure. Per say if you are making £500/month now that means by December that will be doubled. In order to make this happen you need to find a hot product/service and as this is a difficult task it would build pressure on you. When the time pressure is increasing and you still have not hit the £ 1000 mark then the motivation starts lacking, negative thought starts getting into control and one loses orientation.

"A journey of a thousand leagues starts from where your feet stand."

"Have little and you will gain.
Have much and you will be confused."

Also quoting your main page

"Only understand where you are now, and you rediscover your power to make changes. This is the heart of I Ching divination. Once you can really see into the present moment, all its possibilities open out before you - and you are free to create your future."

Knowing I did not gave what you asked hope the above helps.

Togan

[hilary]

You have a point, too. I made slightly over £500 for the last couple of months, but £200 of this comes from a couple of mentoring clients who I think will be finishing soon. £1000 is a 'if you can't even do this after 8 years, who are you trying to kid?' figure, or a 'if this isn't realistic, then nor is the whole idea of making this a business' figure.

you need to find a hot product/service
Yes. And I'm realising (again, slowly) that I can't possibly do that by myself, as I'm not the one who needs to want to buy it. The 'products and services' section of this site is already full of my bright ideas. Hence this thread - which is just the first of many, as I do know it's a hard question to answer.

[toganm]

You have a point, too. I made slightly over £500 for the last couple of months, but £200 of this comes from a couple of mentoring clients who I think will be finishing soon. £1000 is a 'if you can't even do this after 8 years, who are you trying to kid?' figure, or a 'if this isn't realistic, then nor is the whole idea of making this a business' figure.

OK, first have you made a break even calculation (remember 500 is the gross income not the net profit) and looked into your source of income, where does it come from; classes, readings, webinars what ever.

Then you need to apply the pareto rule (80% to 20%) and decide where to increase your efforts.


you need to find a hot product/service


Yes. And I'm realising (again, slowly) that I can't possibly do that by myself, as I'm not the one who needs to want to buy it. The 'products and services' section of this site is already full of my bright ideas.

No product/service is hot until people start buying it like crazy. The best way in my opinion is to listen people and have a deeper look into what they are after. You are in the business of providing solutions to the needs of the customers.


The longer version will come in a series of quick polls, surveys, questions, soundings and so on over the coming months.

So start with this one rather than doing any other thing. Unless you hear people your ideas can not be bright as for who they are bright.

If you look around the business that are successful, they are because of the difference in their approach. Be innovative, don't copy others and most importantly do not cut prices thinking more people will buy the product. However before doing anything you need to analyze your business find your cash cows, stars and fail out ones.

Finally, all visitors to the web site have access to the forums. If per say I am in a similar situation (doesn't have to be business related) and I needed an insight possibly from Yi. While wandering freely and easily in the website, I find messages of the site owner, the Yi mentor (use whatever title you want) whose in a similar situation. Now I ask myself, blindfolded leading the blindfolded where will I end.

In my opinion one should always seek guidance in closed circles, never go public.

Hope this helps
Togan

[hilary]

Finally, all visitors to the web site have access to the forums. If per say I am in a similar situation (doesn't have to be business related) and I needed an insight possibly from Yi. While wandering freely and easily in the website, I find messages of the site owner, the Yi mentor (use whatever title you want) whose in a similar situation. Now I ask myself, blindfolded leading the blindfolded where will I end.

In my opinion one should always seek guidance in closed circles, never go public.

This sounds absolutely right and makes perfect sense. When I first imagined writing this thread, I never seriously thought I'd actually post it. You can guess what comes next, right? Yi's spanner in the works. So as not to let this thread slide too far off-topic, I've just posted said spanner to the Shared Readings forum.

OK, first have you made a break even calculation (remember 500 is the gross income not the net profit) and looked into your source of income, where does it come from; classes, readings, webinars what ever.

Then you need to apply the pareto rule (80% to 20%) and decide where to increase your efforts.The £500 is net of business expenses (being online, those are pretty tiny), which are all I'm taking into consideration for my £1000 goal. (Yes, I have heard the 'pay yourself first' wisdom. If I'm still trading in January I promise to look into it!)

Income comes mostly from mentoring, followed by the correspondence course and readings. But there is a ceiling on these, of course, dictated by the number of hours in the day, and I've almost reached it. I think I could get to £1000/month on payment-for-hours, but not far beyond it at all - and also I'd probably keel over from the strain. So while I could manage one more mentoring client (and will probably soon have space for another two), I need to move towards helping many people with one hour's work, one way or another.

The best way in my opinion is to listen people and have a deeper look into what they are after.Couldn't have put it better. That's where I'm putting all my energy now. (At least as soon as I've responded to one ecourse assignment, a few class assignments, and prepared readings for two mentoring calls this evening...)

P.S. Thank you for being the voice of reason. It's one I need to hear. :)

[meng]

Hi Hilary,

Thanks for being transparent about this.

Pardon my, um, candor (you should be quite used to that after 7 years!), but here goes.

I think this forum does your business much more harm than good, for a couple of big and related reasons. Imagine if Sony (for example) provided a forum, where amateur electronics nerds would argue electronic theory, 24/7. Sound like a great promotional investment idea? All it would do is give the entirely wrong idea about the company and its products. Confusion and factionalism do not promote market share.

Those who are not sincere, who want quick cookie cutter answers to their every day problems, and who don't want to have to think to increase their understanding, will come here for the free handouts, but are unlikely enroll in your courses or pay for your attentive and expert interpretations. It ain't gonna happen. And, if a more qualified prospect does happen to venture onto your lot, they'll only be distracted by the (often unfriendly or just silly) chatter of the board. Your credibility is not served well by this forum, I'm sorry to say.

The lecture circuit is, as you know, another world, but I think it's one you may wish to consider. You're intellectually equipped to write books. You have lots and lots of arrows in your quiver. There's lots you can do.

Not to get all new agey on you, but there is one exercise which I've found very helpful when I needed to receive a vision to follow. It comes from the book Psycho Cybernetics http://www.amazon.com/Psycho-Cybernetics-New-More-Living-Life/dp/0671700758.
You simply sit, calm yourself, close your eyes - and picture yourself doing what gives you great pleasure. Not doing "what you should be doing" or "could be doing" or "need to be doing".... doing what makes you happy inside. It's an exercise so results may not come immediately, but as you steer your mind constantly in this direction , images will begin to appear. It may turn out to be something ridiculously obvious, or something completely unexpected. But when you see yourself doing it, and you are filled with joy because of it, you will know, that's what to follow.

Bruceter

[hilary]

Pretty much used to the candour, yes. I think it's growing on me ;)

Thank you for the suggestion, I'll try that. (See if I can get beyond 'sleeping' as a response.) But I'm very much afraid that assuming that what I enjoy is what other people will want is what got me to this point in the first place. (That, and - worse - assuming I can guess what other people want.)

And speaking of the forum... yes, it's occurred to me (repeatedly) over the years that it might not be helping, in very much the ways you suggest, plus the more positive one that if the forum provides all the readings and education you need, why the heck would you buy anything? And now I need to head straight back to 'Shared readings' to share another reading (no, really) about that.

I appreciate the advice a great deal... and at the same time I want to try to direct this thread back to the original question: never mind what anyone else might want or think, what would you, personally, want to buy? I'll ask it in more helpful ways over the coming months (with hexagram 4 still in mind...), but it'd be great if this thread turned into a brainstorming session to get the ball rolling.

[sparhawk]

I appreciate the advice a great deal... and at the same time I want to try to direct this thread back to the original question: never mind what anyone else might want or think, what would you, personally, want to buy? I'll ask it in more helpful ways over the coming months (with hexagram 4 still in mind...), but it'd be great if this thread turned into a brainstorming session to get the ball rolling.


I must say I agree with Bruce. His take of what the forum may be doing for you is right on track. Specifically, the "Shared Readings" part of it, if your intention is for it to be part of your business model and not a hobby. I'm on the record on that for years.

As for "products and services," I think you should make a difference between "old timers" and "newbies". Your market in definitely on the "newbies" side of the business and those learning the ropes. For the rest, and even though I speak for myself I believe I'm not alone, I'm here because is nice to find people with whom I have a thematic affinity. I'm just "filler" providing a warped signal to noise ratio... :D Don't concentrate your marketing goals on your "friends" but on the people who are just finding the Yi.

[meng]

I'd buy guitar strings, coffee filters, fresh veggies and sugarless gum. In fact, I think of you every time I see this commercial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEJJUGJZxpU&feature=related

For a good clean feeling, no matter what. :D

;)

[hilary]

Re-forum see thread (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5602).

It's true that you old-timers don't need readings from me, or indeed an I Ching course, class, glossary or what-have-you. You don't need the content, but you do like the meeting place. (I think it's mutual ;) ) So how about an upgraded meeting-place? Could that be worth paying for?

Just throwing example ideas in the air...

[hilary]

Ah Bruce, you know me so well. And if this now becomes a thread all about chewing gum, then I'm going to kill you. In a very polite, refined and English way, naturally.

[sparhawk]

Re-forum see thread (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5602).

It's true that you old-timers don't need readings from me, or indeed an I Ching course, class, glossary or what-have-you. You don't need the content, but you do like the meeting place. (I think it's mutual ;) ) So how about an upgraded meeting-place? Could that be worth paying for?

Just throwing example ideas in the air...

Well, I'm not one to shy away from a reasonable subscription fee to the forum, really. On the other hand, I'm a good observer and been online for a while to know that trends are going away from that model. (http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free) I doubt you can make a living with only a few paid subscriptions. But, perhaps I'm wrong and you are able to gather more than just a few. Line 1

‘No intercourse with what is harmful,
In no way at fault,
Hardship is thus not a mistake.’

[meng]

chuckle

[philippa]

My cousin works as a coach and it took her many years to break-even and now earning a decent living. Having observed her in action, a lot of it comes from word-of-mouth and the old-school networking. (Sigh. All the old-school business/marketing practices do help.) The one thing I see going for my cousin is to carve out a niche for herself (business and multicultural coaching).

I enjoyed your nuanced reading and I honestly think you can carve out a niche for yourself using Yi as an aid. I've seen people using tarot as a coaching aid but much less so with the Yi. I wonder if yours is simply a case of targetting the right audience. E.g., Business? Executive/managerial? Personal? Targeted skills?

[lightangel]

I asked:

What does Hilary need to know about making money with Clarity?

37.5 => 22

I guess you are the queen of this family and that the roll of silk is very small indeed...;)

I really think it's going to be very hard for you to make money with the forum. I agree with Luis in that a reasonable membership fee would not be a bad idea but that won't take you far. I also agree that your market would be in the 'newbies'.

To put it bluntly (and I've been dancing around this idea, trying many ways to come out an say it), I don't see in the regulars either a whole lot of 'need' or a whole lot of disposable income(with many exceptions, of course). The economy is not helping you either, with the dollar being so weak, people are rather cutting expenses than finding new ways to spend.

So, your regulars won't come up with answers as to what they would like to buy. and your newbies don't really know what they want to buy. They want answers, that is why they are here. They still need to be sold on the idea that they need to 'learn' or that they need to go deeper. And they don't have the time to take a class either. They are here because they want answers NOW.

So, the only way I can imagine you making some money (other than the paid subscription, which might drive some people away) is to somehow charge for readings in the forum. That's as detailed as I can get. But these are the only two cents I have.:)

[hilary]

Yes, I do notice that so far, amongst all these (thoughtful, intelligent, much-appreciated) answers, my original question - what would you buy? - isn't getting a whole lot of attention!

Have to go now - real work to do. I'll try to drop in again before the end of the day.

[hilary]

Just noticed I've made at the very least a 'second and third consultation' with my original question by now, just on this thread. Are the waters properly muddied yet?

:duh:

:bag:

[maremaria]

Yes, I do notice that so far, amongst all these (thoughtful, intelligent, much-appreciated) answers, my original question - what would you buy? - isn't getting a whole lot of attention!



Hi Hilary,

I only have a minute but I ‘ll be back to tell you my thoughts.

My answer to your questions “what would I buy ?” is : EVERYTHING you convince me I NEED and I can afford the money to buy it.

Now I have to make you a question. “WHO am I and WHAT I need?” (as a customer )


In other words, I’m not sure if you can get a straight answer to your question at least from here without knowing to whom you want to sell or which are the ones might be interested to an offer of yours.

To be continue …

Maria

[meng]

I wonder if yours is simply a case of targetting the right audience. E.g., Business? Executive/managerial? Personal? Targeted skills?

Niche target marketing is an excellent consideration.

[topal]

I think there's definitely room to charge subscription which needn't be lot but would make a difference taken with other financial possibilities. On it's own, no. But as part of a package taken with other avenues of earning I see no reason not to do something along those lines.

I can't agree enough with others who have mentioned that you should write a book - or a series - on the I Ching. Many possibilities there. You very well equipped to do so and it's something I believe would not only sell but actually be extremely useful as people become more and more confused about the world around them. There is a real need for understanding and guidance. You are in a perfect place to be able to provide that. This should be your absolute priority in my opinion. People can give you all kinds of advice on what they would find most useful both in terms of marketing and pitch - you have a ready made resource from which you can draw.

Also, and understandably you seem to have become very focused on the money aspect to all this. What can I sell? What can I sell? Well, yes, making money IS important - of course it is. But I think - if I've got this right and as Bruce mentions regarding the creation of a fertile mind for such things - you are a bit out of kilter regarding the money aspect. That WILL come but perhaps not in the way that you think. Letting go on that and finding what you enjoy then the money tends to come. Nothing you don't know already but I think you are anticipating too much and trying to force it via a way that simply isn't offering enough of that exchange equation. So, stepping back and really utilising all that blocked energy i.e. knowledge is ready now. Something will open up.

Rather than teaching on your own account and with no support can you not get in negotiations with an education authority and/or private/semi-private tutoring schools where you can teach modules on Yi practice? How far are you from a major city? London has the City Literary Institute for example, which has all kinds of original courses and is now a company limited by guarantee. There are also a number of higher education colleges which may be open to I Ching courses with a sufficient amount of history thrown in perhaps.

You could create a series of modules AND turn that into a book - killing two birds with one stone.

The other thing to mention is that whether folks know it or not (and one has to have one's head in the sand not to really pick up on this) this current recession in America is only the beginning and I'm afraid is going to become global very quickly as we can see from company losses and food prices. That really should be taken into account. People are not going to have the money to pay for luxuries such as one-woman private courses. BUT they will increasingly be looking for answers as the stakes rise and they will be much more prepared to buy something that is practical, accessible and competitively priced and at the local institute or at the local bookstore. I'm quite sure you have something someone else hasn't thought of yet in terms of content and which will appeal to the great unwashed like myself :p I think that your style could be extremely helpful AND commercially viable.

So, to reiterate I would do whatever you have to do in order to write that book(s) and if that means streamlining or charging dosh for Clarity then so be it.

Probably nothing very original in the above - it's just my immediate thoughts as they come to me - I could be way off so just ignore it if so! :D

Topal

[hilary]

That's easy, Maria. I want to sell things to you. Or to phrase that another way: I want to create something that's more valuable to you than money.

And I expect you probably have a better idea than I do of who you are and what you need. That's why I'm asking.

(And now I must get on the phone.)

[philippa]

my original question - what would you buy? - isn't getting a whole lot of attention!


:)

Recall your 59 => 4 reading? Perhaps the forum-reading crowd (4) is not necessarily the right audience for your 59 message. :P

Honestly, I'm not sure what to tell you. The coaching/yi reading is a service difficult to sell in a "retail" way. I can imagine buying a one-time reading or rare interviews/recordings. But is it something that is sustainable in the long run? I feel like I'm very much a 4 here.

Would the coaching business community, for example, be able to offer advices more solid for you?

[topal]

Niche target marketing is an excellent consideration.

Yes - I can see corporations going for I Ching consultations in a big way if you can convince of the reliability of such a form of divination and if it's marketed correctly.

All you need is the right guy at the top and some field work and the results would speak for themselves. It's not like there's quantatitive data on this type of thing...Is there such a thing as Business oriented I Ching consultations? I suppose there must be...

Topal

[ben_s]

Hilary,

I saw the "what effect" thread before this one, please see some immediate ideas I put in there: 1. Make clear in the forum headings that they are sponsored by your business, 2. Make clear in your posts that you post as you have time, but not at the expense of your business, 3. Consider asking for a modest donation which would let people access a special members-only area, 4. Consider a membership package that included the members-only forum plus a reading, at a lower price than buying these separately.

You had half a dozen people ask, Hilary, what is your ultimate dream life regarding your business, and your life, and this site? Without stopping yourself by not yet knowing "how to get there," what would you most love to be doing? And each time, you responded with one form of another of, "That doesn't matter, what do you want to buy?"

In other words, "you show me the box, and I'll fit into it." (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4Dna0oWu_EU)

This is exactly the same as with all the relationship questions: "How can I MAKE him/her love me and make me happy?" It's the wrong question. There are three questions that should be asked instead: What brings happiness in your life? What is your unique contribution? Who can honor that contribution and help you get what you don't already have in your life?

First look at what you would really love, without concern about how to make it pay. Would you really love to give talks to a hundred people at a time? To a thousand? To have a daily TV talk show? To be interviewed on the radio twice a week? To write a book about how to use the wisdom of the Yi to stop repeating dumb mistakes in relationships? To join a team of business consultants that together offered advice in operations management, personnel, and the wisdom of the Yi? To travel the world half the year? To type in the corner ten hours a day, without ANY in-person demands on your time, and get paid well? To split your year between work in the UK, Vegas, and Singapore? To take tour groups through the countryside, discussing the Yi while visiting beautiful gardens?

You might or might not be able to get to the top of the particular mountain of your dreams. But if you say, "that's so high up there I'll not waste my time on it," you miss out on the glorious hillside view that might well be reachable in the short term.

The third step is to consider the intersection of your passion, your talent, and market need. But that should never be the first step. The first step is always: what do you love? The second step is always: what are you excellent at doing? Only after you have your top 5 lists of loves and talents, is it time to examine how to adapt your needs to the marketplace - or even better, to create a whole new marketplace!

[listener]

I have said before that I would love to see more of are the transcripts of readings such as those in the fron of Ritsema karcher...i love to read the whole process.......i know you said once you wouldnt publish these as your transcripts are confidential.

is there a reason you dont have little boxes to click on on the first page of your site...."Click here to see a sample reading and order your own"....click here to order your very own set of yarrow sticks........click here to order your cd on Finding LOve With The I Ching:mischief:.........People tend to order impulsively if it is a click away and the price is right........on clarity, your services are a step removed, andf I think that affects your sales

remembering your 45.6 reading..the iching market is so small....easy to reach the pinnacle of it and still be weeping and wailing...I vote for the book by you , speaking circuit, and also for the life coach path...see Hollis Polk........you would be great with this and your corner on the market could be your use of the YI

brainstorming:o

[hilary]

Wow... I spend an hour on mentoring, and look what happens...

Thank you.

:hug:

I can't respond to everything, but I am reading everything.

What I love? The experience of helping people 'get it', seeing them rediscovering connections and meaning - both in the individual 'aha' moments and the ongoing evolution. That's why I started offering readings and then mentoring. And helping people develop their own relationship with Yi, and witnessing all that comes to them through that. Hence the course, and the class, and any information I put together to make that relationship easier. Also writing, finding connections and patterns, telling stories, interpreting, teaching. But not being well known, being the centre of attention, having to 'present' myself in certain ways... ugh.

So you see, what I do here is already all designed round what I love. The only part I don't love is the amount of time and energy it eats - and by giving myself an extra day off each week, this year, and trying to create books, membership etc rather than just sell more and more readings, I'm also doing something about that. (If I can create something you'll pay to download, for instance, I can have a holiday and an income at the same time.) Oh, and being indoors all day. I love the picture of talking Yi in beautiful gardens.

The 'do what you love' question is answered. I'm doing what I love, and have been for years - and if I'm honest, it's been a hobby. The question is whether I can continue - and that depends on whether I can make this valuable enough for people like you to spend money on it.

For years, I've assumed that the overwhelming majority of people here at the forum would never buy anything from me, and so I should simply provide the forum as a public service, not spend too much time here, and run the actual business part as a separate entity, serving a whole separate group of people. When most people here showed no interest in what I came up with to sell, I took that as evidence for my assumption.

Now - prodded and kicked by Yi every inch of the way, and helped along by the survey that showed most people here actually do spend money on their personal development - I'm trying on a new assumption. If I do the whole process of thinking up and designing what I offer in isolation, I shouldn't be surprised if I don't get much response when I suddenly emerge red-faced and bedraggled from the kitchen to offer you hubarb chilli spaghetti with extra meringue, or something.

I need to go prepare for mentoring client #2 (definitely, definitely getting close to my natural maximum for this). Just one thing to clarify: I'm not thinking of charging a fee for the forum as is. (Not unless there's huge public demand, of course... ) But I am thinking of a fee-based membership which provides something more than this.

Bottom line: this is not a charity appeal. There's been a donations link here for years, and it gets an average of one donation/year, and this is absolutely fine by me. Not least because I haven't contributed all that much to the place, and I feel I'd have an almighty cheek to ask you to pay me for what other people are creating.

I can see what the first poll/ survey's going to be about, though: the paid upgrade to membership and what it should include.

[maremaria]

[QUOTE=hilary;67543]That's easy, Maria. I want to sell things to you. Or to phrase that another way: I want to create something that's more valuable to you than money.

And I expect you probably have a better idea than I do of who you are and what you need. That's why I'm asking.

QUOTE]

Hi again,

Hilary, imo, its not that easy to set up a new business or launch a new product (innovative or not) and make it profitable. But it can be done.

I ‘m a little bit rusty in Marketing but let me explain what I said in my previous post. I’m a little bit late so some things other mentioned it so I’ll state them in brief.
About the question “ WHO am I and WHAT I need ?”

Customers
It might help you to map your potential customers. Make the profiles of them. Luis mentioned something about “newbies” and "old timers" . Two totally different categories with differed needs. Two differed products if you like. Now to whom do you want to provide services . The newbies ? the old timers ? both ?
Which are those people ? how time they can afford ? what much money ? Do the newbies want a long run course or choose between modules ? What kind of courses ?
And questions like that. It may help you to put it in a paper and have a meaningful picture of which target market (s) do you want to approach.

Competition
Which are your competitors . Yi, tarot, runes, etc. Have a look to their sites. What do they offer, how they sell their products, to whom they address …..etc ? Its important to know your competitors. You can find products that you never thought , we can find ideas and use them or improve them or you can find a niche in the market., as Philipa mentioned.

Look at others sites too that maybe look irrelevant. Those are competitors too. Sometimes you can find ideas and adopt it . i.e about the way they present their products, extra services etc.


Promotion

See your self as a consumers. How important is the window of the shop? The displays inside ? Listener said something about that. She has a point. Sorry to say that but you hide in a way your products. I have to search to find them. Remind me in many places in your site that you offer product A, B, C. Make it attractive to me, tempting.

I said I would buy EVERYTHING you convince me I NEED and I can afford the money to buy it. This is what I meant. Show me, show me again, make it easy for me to find it and buy it. Make me believe that it will help me. Maybe if I buy something I’ll come back again. Make me a customer of your and then try to keep me.

I agree with the comments of the people about the business site and the forum. There are two different things. Distinguish them. This forums attracts people /potential customers but what when it works opposite to your business goals , something has to be done. Change the layout of your business part ? make the customers understand that there are two different things ? something else ?

Its good that you can use the opinion of the forum members . But sometimes a questioner needs a certain way to form it. For example you can gather different answers from a direct question than from a direct one.

Investment.

Your are going to make a business plan. You have to invest, money, time. Maybe you should reconsider the time limits you have put to yourself. I agree with toganm with what he said.
Its one thing "earn 1000/month till december" and another "Make my bussines profitable"

Those are some ideas
Hope they help.

Maria

[hilary]

I'm out all day tomorrow apart from a few hours in the middle, between volunteering and orchestra. So I jumped in now to start a poll on a paying membership (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5607). Not that that's the only thing to do, or the main thing, but so far it's what people have suggested.

I do understand about making a profile of prospective customers. I hope to do that, not by guessing, but by asking. And you are quite right about there being different and better ways to ask questions. This thread is obviously not so good for receiving the answer I asked for (hexagram 4 again!), but brilliant for receiving many other things. I just need to take the time and disperse a few more mental boundaries. :)

[maremaria]

I just saw the other threads. Being mostly out of internet today. I think too you have been given a lots of information, ideas etc.

I would recommend to also ask for the opinion of an consultant or google for articles about internet marketing of how to procced.

wish you good luck and a lots of inspiration :)

P.S. My comments about the questions was not for this thread. Just a tip for your future research .

[hilary]

One thought/ request before I collect up my overdue library books (argh) and set out for the day.

You might look at the question on this page and on the poll page (see signature!) and come up with the answers 'nothing' and 'not interested'. In which case, you are not alone (I expect you're in the majority), and this is not something to keep quiet about. The most helpful thing you could do is to tell me so - as one of the most valuable things I could possibly learn from this is whether or not the assumptions behind this whole opening-up-and-consulting are right. (Actually, probably the most valuable thing.)

Please don't be inhibited. Point your mouse towards the poll page (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5607) and vote.

[trojan]

I voted 'not interested' because I just wouldn't need extra message space or phone conversations or those other things on offer. I think the most valuable thing I would pay for is the forum as we have it. I don't think it would be unreasonable to make a charge for using it as it is. If it was too high I might not pay it but thats tough i suppose. Donations are hard when money is tight because you don't want to part with money you just don't have - but if you have to and its a reasonable amount then i think most people would. I think many people have already said they would. Trouble is I don't know how much it would help anyway.

I can see having to pay might deter new comers so it maybe a charge could be instigated after the first 20 posts or so so they know what they are paying for. That could be complicated i guess.

Re showing prices for future ideas is it possible to use £s aswell

[sparhawk]

Re showing prices for future ideas is it possible to use £s aswell

Victorian imperialist!!! What's next, a new tax on our tea??? :rofl:

[hilary]

Trojan - divide by two ;)

Interesting thought - that you'd pay something for what we have, but you're not bothered about extras. I do want to keep a free membership, though. (And apart from wanting to, I need to, from a business point of view.) One option might be still to have a free membership, but reduce what it includes somehow, and charge a painlessly tiny amount for the first 'step up' from there.

Also, thank you for actually voting 'not interested'. The potential problem with this kind of poll is that the 'not interested' people don't vote at all, so you get a completely skewed picture of what % really wants something.

[fkegan]

Hi Hillary,
There is a general principle to consider: No one makes enough money to feel successful just from their own efforts (doctors have proved this over and over again).:D

The sense of having an income that doesn't interfere in one's busy life requires that you do indeed make money from what other folks actually create within the space you control. This is called the landlord principle and it has its benefits and problems, but like most things it is all dependent upon how things are administered.

There is a fundamental difficulty with your poll question--it offers just one set of options, low or high fee without any definition of what membership means... Folks pay to support their community (including as Luis notes taxes). If you are selling membership in the terms you imply, that means whatever sum is the fee you are obligating yourself to deliver membership services of that value. Not what you seem eager to further complicate your busy schedule with at all.

This suggests you may wish to consider two alternative questions:
1) What is it that is happening in you and for you which is being expressed in these feelings. This is a very private question which is ideally suited to Yi divination--consider yourself a prime client of your own and go from there.

2) What would folks connected to this site be willing to pay in rent or taxes (with all the emotional connotations of each term) so you can have an income as land lord to fund your life as you wish to live it. Then the membership services demands become what are the needs of the tenants in exchange for the rent and taxes they pay.

Frank

[trojan]

Victorian imperialist!!! What's next, a new tax on our tea??? :rofl:

LOL love the new dragon slogan - he'll be chanting "we shall overcome" next. Yes I don't have a clue what a dollar is worth and I'm sure i should but there you are -

[hilary]

There is a fundamental difficulty with your poll question--it offers just one set of options, low or high fee without any definition of what membership means... Folks pay to support their community (including as Luis notes taxes). If you are selling membership in the terms you imply, that means whatever sum is the fee you are obligating yourself to deliver membership services of that value. Not what you seem eager to further complicate your busy schedule with at all.

Have a look at the first post in that thread. I don't go into enormous detail about what might be included in the two options - that would be something to work out after choosing one - but I do give a reasonably clear outline of what each would mean.

I'm wholly 'eager to further complicate my busy schedule' by providing membership services. If you look back up the thread, you'll see my original question was not, 'How can I get money for what I currently provide for free?' but 'What else can I provide that would be worth paying for?'

[hilary]

In fact... it's not about 'having an income that doesn't interfere' at all. It's about being of service - and to do that I need to create things people actually want. (And it's a nice coincidence that people pay for what they want.)

[fkegan]

LOL love the new dragon slogan - he'll be chanting "we shall overcome" next. Yes I don't have a clue what a dollar is worth and I'm sure i should but there you are -

The dragon can't sing We Shall Overcome--his fiery breath isn't non-violent.

The dollar is dropping quickly. About $2 to one pound sterling... though moving toward replacing the old Italian Lire so everyone can be a millionaire, even the kids running a sidewalk lemonade stand.

Hilary,

So, your poll is asking, how much membership service do folks want to buy in for?
That does simplify things...

Frank

[trojan]

The dragon can't sing We Shall Overcome--his fiery breath isn't non-violent.

The dollar is dropping quickly. About $2 to one pound sterling... though moving toward replacing the old Italian Lire so everyone can be a millionaire, even the kids running a sidewalk lemonade stand.



Frank

Ah yes thanks (thats what Hilary meant by 'divide by 2' :o. ) I think Luis dragon uses his fire mainly for culinary purposes - barbecues, candles on birthday cakes, that kind of thing.

[fkegan]

Ah yes thanks (thats what Hilary meant by 'divide by 2' :o. ) I think Luis dragon uses his fire mainly for culinary purposes - barbecues, candles on birthday cakes, that kind of thing.

True, though it is actually virtual and thus without flame. However, imagine "We Shall Overcome" under his dragon and it appears to be an unmanned Pentagon drone about to cause collateral damage....

Or back to the thread... the question is who has interest in subscribing to Hilary's paid services on a monthly basis (in half pound sterling or dollar terms) but hasn't contacted her about their needs as yet?

Frank

[sparhawk]

Ah yes thanks (thats what Hilary meant by 'divide by 2' :o. ) I think Luis dragon uses his fire mainly for culinary purposes - barbecues, candles on birthday cakes, that kind of thing.

His flame is all about love (heats massage oils with it) and cow carcasses... :D

[ben_s]

Hilary, I recommend you explore the Alan Weiss book, "How to attract clients." His point is that it's best if potential clients have already heard about you. When they take the initiative to ask you, "Can you help me?" your rate can go way up. He covers a large number of ways to build what he calls "marketing gravity."

Weiss says that by far, the most powerful one thing a paid advice-giver can do is to write a book, and have it published by a commercial publisher. The book itself might not bring in much money from royalties. But the credibility of publication makes several next steps very easy.

Weiss breaks down the writing process into a 10 chapter plan, with a few key points per chapter and a 2 hour writing time, twice a week. For someone with as much to say as you, it should be pretty quick to do a first book. The first book could even be entirely from your forum posts, with very minor connecting material added.

With the book and a cover letter or press release, one can be interviewed as an expert on a subject - free publicity - with radio shows calling one at home to do the interview. You're both photogenic and witty, so you could also look to be interviewed on TV. The camera crew would probably enjoy capturing some footage of you on cello, and volunteering, maybe visiting philosophy books at the university library... really, you'd be a natural for TV.

As the author of a book, an expert can readily get articles published, including book chapters as articles - more free publicity. One can get speaking engagements or invitations to participate in conferences and seminars - this can be paid publicity, lead to selling the book and other materials at the event, and lead to more paid clients.

Weiss says that some of his best clients say, "We bought your book but haven't got around to reading it... can we please hire you to tell us what you wrote?"

Weiss's work is personnel consulting for big companies. But I think many of his ideas can apply to you.

You likely have at least three books you could write: Spiritual Meaning of the I Ching; I Ching Wisdom for Relationship Struggles; Ancient Stories for Modern Life (applying the I Ching to everyday decisions).

Weiss recommends a commercial publisher for an impressive image. But you could start with self-publishing. From a Google search for "print on demand," you could find services that would print a 200 page book for $10, one copy at a time, with a modest up-front cost. You could include a free forum membership for people who order the book through your web site.

Another possibility would be a gorgeous coffee table book, with a beautiful image representing each hexagram, and your commentary in an artistic font unique to each image.
Here's a discussion of coffee table books from a photography forum. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/100-books.shtml
In your case, even if you have to license photos and pay a graphic designer, you could get 1,000 copies for about $20,000 in all. If it's a $50 book, breakeven is at 400 copies. If all 1,000 sell in a year, the total is well over your 1000 GBP/month goal.

Just a few ideas to stimulate your creativity...

[sergio]

Hi Hilary'
It is a blessing for us all to have such a wonderful forum as the one you provide for all of us.Is is like going to a bar in the corner of the street I live and chat with my friends (about the Yi in this case).Now what does the bar owner gains in exchange for hosting us?Clearly,the drinks he sells,second he can join in the conversation,voice his opinion and learn something too.So he will look for ways to entice us to go there more-maybe show soccer games in the weekends-i mean he knows what makes us tickle...and if other persons see the crowd then they'll think about bringing some live music or try to sell other products that will cater to the their tastes...so,in a way he will not charge admission to the bar but will make sure that there is enough "entertaintment for all us to be there regularly.So the metaphor applies here very neatly(I think)For example your forum is an excellent place foe publishers,editors and authors to promote their new items or to host meetings same as you did with Karcher some time ago(I would love to have a chance to ask questions to Richard Smith,for example)....but something the bartender in my hood's bar will not allow would be for someone to come in selling coffe because thatt's what he does for a leaving,you know?Let's say I want to have a free reading then I would post my question in the forum but that would be cutting down your bussiness, would it not? Maybe some things ought not to be so free after all because it will defeat the purpose of you offering readings regardless of the top quality of them while some other things,though not profitable per se,would certainly increase the traffic thus increasing the possibilities of you.my dear bartender Hilary,getting what you right fully deserve.
Sergio

[el_2]

Hilary

As a newbie here, and going back to your original direct question, I would personally like to buy a book. Now there are a lot of books on the I Ching but it is so multi-layered that there are many ideas about what might be missing -apart from another take at interpretation.

As for the forum, I'm not sure about what would need to change but I think I'd buy a book you'd written for two reasons. First, I gather from the forum that your view on the I Ching is worth exploring. Second, from what I can understand from reading your posts etc., you are not in it for the money. What I mean is that personally I'm very suspicious of people who find something that they think is a 'trend' and all they care about is make money from it. With things like the I Ching there's a lot of commercialization and there are people who jump in just for the money. Having said this, I don't think that you wanting to earn some kind of living from it is not legitimate given the time and energy you already give away for free, which I greatly appreciate. It is in this way that the forum can be a good recommendation for you and your books or whatever products or services you might choose to sell. You just don't seem to be someone who wants to take advantage of people's need to have answers for instance. I hope I'm making myself clear here.

Also, since the I Ching is something that involves a lot of learning in the sense of DIY and since guidance on its use is always needed at the beginning at least, I think a book (or books) is a good idea.

Hope this helps

el_2

[trojan]

I also would definately buy a book. I often want your perspective on something Hilary, but don't know where to find it and spend ages searching the blog for a pearl of wisdom on some particular line etc.

(Not a coffee table book though )

[hilary]

Don't worry, the $20,000 investment Ben suggests for the coffee table book isn't immediately to hand. (Headed straight to Amazon to get the Weiss book you recommended, though, Ben.)

Now what does the bar owner gains in exchange for hosting us?Clearly,the drinks he sells,second he can join in the conversation,voice his opinion and learn something too.
That's exactly how I see it.
Let's say I want to have a free reading then I would post my question in the forum but that would be cutting down your bussiness, would it not?
I wonder about that... it's not clear at all, and pretty much impossible to tell. But I am seriously considering making some things (links in sigs, extensive private messaging) not free.
As a newbie here, and going back to your original direct question...
:hug:
...I would personally like to buy a book.
I'll write one.

(It may take me a little while, though. The subject matter merits more than the kind of 'token book' I see produced in some areas - especially by professional marketers - which contain stunningly little content and endless recommendations to visit the website and pay for the real information!)

[hilary]

Ben, is this the book you meant (http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Acquire-Clients-Techniques-Practitioner/dp/0787955140/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208945137&sr=8-5)?

[ben_s]

Hilary, yes, that's the book I meant. I've read several Weiss books and I think his advice is superb.

By the way I don't have any financial interest in any of these examples, I'm just pointing out a variety of successful approaches to marketing. With enough examples and ideas, something will click in your own creativity. I think there's only reason you haven't put together a great idea yet. The reason is that you haven't seen enough examples of great ideas!

In his books and website, Weiss pretty much gives away the complete explanation of what he does and how he does it. Yet the more he publishes, the more clients he gets. I believe you could be financially successful as an author, speaker, workshop leader, individual reading provider, etc., all part-time. Then the forum could be free as a loss leader, or a hobby. Or it could pay its own way through your sale of upgrades, books, consultations etc. to a percentage of forum users.

The coffee table book is just an example of a high-end product. Obviously it would take a lot of time and money to do something like that. Just one example of a big ticket item that could be added later.

A regular book could be quick to put together. With an ordinary publisher, or a print-on-demand service, it would be inexpensive to bring to market.

Here's another example of a subject matter expert who sells an ebook package. This big guy uses in-your-face American marketing. I believe something about the concept could be adapted into a suitably British approach. (I was looking for a tea-sipping smiley to go here.)

http://www.burnthefat.com/ From the letter: "over the past 14 years, through a long and painstaking process of trial, error and experimentation, I've developed a sure-fire, 100% guaranteed system.... I have some great news for you! Since there are no printing costs for e-books, you can get this e-book for much less than it would cost if it were a hard copy manual - AND you get it instantly (no waiting for the snail mail!) Your investment in this life-changing e-book is now only $39.95! You get the 340 page BURN THE FAT e-book, all three bonus reports, the free E-zine subscription plus access to the E-zine archives, the FREE BURN THE FAT updates for life AND a FREE copy of my new body fat e-book - all for just $39.95!
Don't wait a minute to order at this low price! The regular price of the Burn The Fat Feed The Muscle program will be going up to $49 after this introductory promotion is over. In the not too distant future, this program may only be available as part of a membership/mentoring package which will probably cost at least $197.00."

The sales letter gives two options: order the whole package, or sign up for the free mini-course by email: 12 lessons mailed over a period of time. (There's software that does this automatically - the generic term is "autoresponder.") Want to bet that those lessons have lots of great tips, plus an additional sales pitch to order the whole package?

[hilary]

Ooh... ideas!

Google ads - possible, but I'm not massively keen. Look at the ones that show up when you Google 'I Ching' and you'll see why: it tends to be 'your lucky number' stuff, and by the time I'd blocked all the sites I really don't want to promote, there might not be many left.

I'd love to write just that kind of 'ebooklet'. Looking at structural connections and finding stories and meaning within them, seeing how these things can be used in readings - this is my idea of fun!

Packaging - yes, but I don't own other people's writings here. (Some sites do have small print explaining how they own everything you write there. Ugh. This one doesn't.)

Reading collections - why not? I'd just have to find a source of readings - other than my own, which tend not to be about very exciting things - and get permission to use them. Gosh, I wonder where I could find a lot of people doing I Ching readings?

(not sure which emoticon to insert here...)

And Ben - absolutely. I'll also eat my hat if you're not added to another autoresponder after purchase to upsell you to an ongoing membership/ mentoring program(me) or some such. On my list of 'things to do when I have a spare moment' is adding to autoresponder sequences, especially the post-purchase ones. Considering I've had my sales process fully integrated with autoresponder software for many, many years, I'm being a bit slow about this.

(Is there a smilie out there somewhere with moss growing on it?)

[hilary]

I've received an amazing influx of ideas, thank you; it's all going to take some processing. Meanwhile...

No, I won't be charging for the forum
(I know I keep saying that, but not everyone believes me.) Welcoming donations, yes; introducing an enhanced paying membership that includes a private forum, yes; restricting some of the amenities to paying members, maybe (undecided). Charging for the essentials, reading and posting, no.

Yes, there will be a paid membership option...
Oops, already said that. Not because people are exactly clamouring for it (though there were glimmerings of interest recently on the forum reading thread), but because I already promised an ongoing membership to my class members. I'll make it the smaller, cheaper option, but include a wiki, and contribute to that.

...but not right away
Introducing this will involve tweaking the forum and installing 'add-ons'. Those are often compatible with a specific version of the forum, and Vbulletin are just about to come out with a new version. So I'll renew my license and upgrade us first (that's a job of work, too, given our heavily-customised templates), admire and implement the new features, see which add-ons actually work with this new version and which have been rendered unnecessary, and then sort out which features should be accessible to each group.

In the meantime, I'll be finishing the mini-glossary...
Another thing I already promised. A class member points out that a part I wrote some time ago is less clear than the rest, so I'm going to rewrite that. It shouldn't take long. Really.

... and also
reading, absorbing suggestions and watching the forum for more, digesting, divining, and thinking about better questions to ask you.

[lorrainep]

Hi Hilary,

I don't know that you should dismiss the Google ads so quickly. It could bring in some income with little effort. Why would you have to go blocking-crazy?

I voted for the lower-rate option, because I didn't know for sure what the higher-rate option would include. Books I would buy. I like the idea of classes too; I couldn't join this time around due to time constraints but would like to in the future.

[hilary]

Why would you have to go blocking-crazy?
Pesky scruples.
*sigh*
If I wouldn't personally recommend a site, I don't want to link to it; plunk the ads in here, and it's going to look as if there's some endorsement implied. If you look through what comes up for 'I Ching reading', for instance, you'll see why I'd be going blocking-crazy.

I could put in an Amazon block instead, I suppose... but it might be better for business to use the space to advertise my own things.

Thank you for voting! :)

[heylise]

Hilary: I'd love to write just that kind of 'ebooklet'. Looking at structural connections and finding stories and meaning within them, seeing how these things can be used in readings - this is my idea of fun!

I WANT TO BUY THAT!!

LiSe

[lorrainep]

Pesky scruples.
*sigh*
If I wouldn't personally recommend a site, I don't want to link to it; plunk the ads in here, and it's going to look as if there's some endorsement implied. If you look through what comes up for 'I Ching reading', for instance, you'll see why I'd be going blocking-crazy.

I understand that idea and that's why I don't put any kind of ads on my site, but I decided that years ago (and forgot to re-think it). Nowadays people are so used to seeing those Google ads, they know you don't hand-select them. I can only think of three sites I would want to block, because they're cult-like. Two are barely known and I only came across them by accident.

I could put in an Amazon block instead, I suppose...

To block certain books? So a person doesn't waste money kind of thing? You do have a list of recommended titles on the site...

[trojan]

I'm glad there will not be google ads - that would be awful here

[hilary]

Sorry :blush:, that was 'block' in the other sense of the word, as in a block of html code, ie an advertisement from Amazon instead of one from Google. They provide various options. But first, I think I might try putting an 'offer of the month' of my own at the foot of each page, with a Friends-only discount coupon. Can't hurt, can it?

[lorrainep]

I'm glad there will not be google ads - that would be awful here


But wouldn't you rather have Google ads than not have the forum at all?

[lorrainep]

Sorry :blush:, that was 'block' in the other sense of the word, as in a block of html code, ie an advertisement from Amazon instead of one from Google.


Oh! Yes, you should have that. :)

[lorrainep]

Some sites are ad-free for paying members...

[hilary]

But wouldn't you rather have Google ads than not have the forum at all?
I shouldn't be surprised ;) But I did already say that even if I pack it in, I'll leave the forum intact, pay its way for a few months, and stick up a donation button for members to do the same in future. And at that point I could add Adsense to help things along. It just doesn't seem a good fit right now, while Clarity's still alive as a business.

[lorrainep]

And at that point I could add Adsense to help things along. It just doesn't seem a good fit right now, while Clarity's still alive as a business.

You don't want to put in ads to make money, because Clarity is alive as a business - ?

;)

[hilary]

OK, OK. Did I ever claim I was being logical? Thought not. Anyway, as long as there are things for sale under the nice 'Products and Services' tab, hopefully someone who stays here and keeps reading is worth more to me than the cent or two I'd get when they left. Hopefully ;) .

[lorrainep]

OK, OK. Did I ever claim I was being logical? Thought not.

I'm just teasing. I'm trying to brainstorm on some ways to get cash flowing into here. It would be nice if ads could at least cover the hosting!

[fkegan]

Hi Hilary and Lorraine,

An Amazon link makes most sense as part of an expert review of books on some subject where folks would come to read the reviews and then could click directly to Amazon to buy a copy of that work, which Amazon pays a commission for that referral (an Associate program not an ad program, I am told).

Of course you would have to find folks familiar with many, many I Ching books and their reviews to make it a truly value added service...either of you know anyone with a proven track record in that area? :D

Frank

[heylise]

And how about putting advertisements for your OWN books and courses on your own forum pages? Now you (us) have to go there, and to be honest, I never do. I think only people who are searching for something actually hit a link to a place where they can find things. If they see the link..

A picture which grabs your attention. I know, pictures of audio courses and such are not easy to make, but it is possible. Even just a pretty box with an eyecatching text would make a difference.

LiSe

[hilary]

Frank - chortle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415939690/clarityiching-20).

LiSe - yes, I like this idea, too. I'm putting changes to the forum on hold until after the new version of the software comes out (so I won't be doing lots of tedious technical things twice), but then I'll see about getting an 'offer of the month' on each page.

You're right about the graphics, too, though I heartily wish you weren't. Graphics programs and I are not friends.

Lorraine - yes, I know. :) It's OK, the hosting is perfectly well covered for now. By the way, it's really good to see the database at zhouyi.com back up and running.

[maremaria]

You're right about the graphics, too, though I heartily wish you weren't. Graphics programs and I are not friends.

.

Hilary, I agree with LiSe about picture's impact. Yi is full of "images" . About the graphics technicalities. Sometimes they do look complicate but it is not that difficult if you find someone to show you of do it for you.

What if you forget for a while your technical restrictions, take a piece of paper and draw how would you like to look your product services screen ? When i needed to make an ad for our company, or a brochure I choose logos, photos , fonts I liked, messages , then cut it in seperate papers and played with them in a white paper with the actual dimensions of the brochure I wanted to make. I could not use those publishing software's but I could show to the graphic designer what I wanted.

[sparhawk]

Hmmm, thinking about what LiSe said... You know that you have your forum right in the middle of the page using what, about 60% width, right? You could either offset the forum column to one side and use that space for offers or leave it as is and still use both sides for something else. It takes some CSS and HTML coding but should be difficult... The point is that you have some 40% unused width in your page. See my English blog (http://www.sorocabana.net/blogs/) for an example...

[hilary]

I think the % unused depends on your screen resolution (it does in the rest of the site, anyway). I'm also pretty sure that putting anything in the unused space would require a complete rewrite of the whole template from scratch. :rolleyes: So for now I'm thinking more of headers and footers.

[buzzurro]

Hilary
As for the forum, I'm not sure about what would need to change but I think I'd buy a book you'd written for two reasons. First, I gather from the forum that your view on the I Ching is worth exploring. Second, from what I can understand from reading your posts etc., you are not in it for the money. What I mean is that personally I'm very suspicious of people who find something that they think is a 'trend' and all they care about is make money from it.

Me too. I only have to add that I'd prefer to buy the book in digital format. I like ebooks because there's always enough room to store them ;), and also because you don't have to wait for shipment, just pay and download...

I would also like to have more Yijing translations in digital format. I mean, there's Wilhelm/Baynes, your Working Translation, LiSe's site and Bradford Hatcher's one,
and that's already a lot of excellent material, and all for free!
Thanks a lot to all of you! :bows:
But what about other good authors one might be interested into...?
Maybe I should search more, but so far I could only find two ebooks of Karcher's, sold on his own site. I searched ebooks.com both for "I Ching" and "Yijing", and I got more than 700 results, the closest of which was the Tao Te Ching, and the rest was about nearly everything ranging from astrology to weight loss...
:confused:
Sorry if it's very far from being a good idea, but that's what I started to fancy: Clarity selling digital versions of selected translations and books about Yijing... :o

And then, on a completely different matter, I once happened to consult the Yi on a quite embarassing subject, and to receive an answer that seemed to be even more embarassing... so I thought: how to ask for help in interpreting a reading that one would rather not share with the world...?
Does it fall into the category of the reading service, when I started the reading myself..?
Or could it be mentoring...?
Since I'm studying the course, I understand that I might spend an extra assignment for that, but this doesn't seem to apply to everyone else... is it only me, or could this be a different category of service to add to those already offered...? :confused:

Who knows, sometimes good ideas can rise from bad ones... :blush:

[hilary]

Do you have Ewald's translation (http://eclecticenergies.com/iching/new.php)? That's definitely one to add to the collection. Some interesting ideas and a lot of very pleasing simplicity and directness.

Lots of people using the reading (and mentoring) service cast their own readings. (Also lots of people doing the course introduce readings they particularly want help with instead of doing a 'suggested assignment', so feel free.) But you have a good point: the pages are written to focus on people who are more at the 'what to ask?' stage than the 'is this as embarrassing an answer as I think it is?' stage. Thank you for the idea.

[buzzurro]

Do you have Ewald's translation (http://eclecticenergies.com/iching/new.php)? That's definitely one to add to the collection. Some interesting ideas and a lot of very pleasing simplicity and directness.
:ouch: Ops! No, I hadn't found this one, thanks for linking!
(I tried to reply before, but my post fell into a well... :D)

[bookgirl]

Just want to add that when I did a search for I Ching courses and limited it to UK sites only, there were a number that were associated with distance learning colleges, very popular and charging sometimes over £400 for the privilege of enrolling. Whether there is any mileage in trying to do a course through an existing institution - which would give it added value in some people's eyes and raise awareness of the existence to such courses - is possibly worth exploring. Obviously the college would cream off a percentage, but the amount going to you might be more than you are getting at the moment when people buy the course from this site.

I will also add my support for a direct link into Amazon, which is what several websites that I am a member do. Then people can contribute to your site without necessarily buying I Ching related materials.

Sandra

[hilary]

Thank you for the ideas!

[meng]

I think the % unused depends on your screen resolution (it does in the rest of the site, anyway). I'm also pretty sure that putting anything in the unused space would require a complete rewrite of the whole template from scratch. :rolleyes: So for now I'm thinking more of headers and footers.

This is exactly the mess I'm going through at the moment with my blog template. Screen size and resolution vary so widely these days.

I'm not familiar with such things, but bookgirl's suggestion sounds brilliant!

[meng]

Hilary, so you know, with a 1680x1050 setting, everything beneath your header takes up only the center 1/3 of the page real estate.

[hilary]

It's a matter of numbers... how many visitors you can expect at each resolution. The downside to that is that of course they change all the time. The upside is that people who use unusually wide resolutions probably see a lot of pages that are two-thirds empty and are quite used to it.

Google says that last month my visitors' screen resolutions were roughly...
40% 1024x768
17% 1280x800
11% 1280x1024
8% 1680x1050
7% 1440x900
7% 800x600

Yes, still 6.56% at the good old 8x6. A year ago it was 8.25%, so the trend is declining; pretty soon it'll be absolutely fine to create websites that require people to scroll horizontally at 8x6. But when I had this current incarnation of the site designed, it definitely wouldn't have been.

(If I remember rightly, I went for fixed width to control column width on wide screens, to avoid having really long lines of text which are harder to read. There may have been some other crucial techie reason that now eludes me.)

I'll plan to design for a wider screen next time around... (oh, I can't wait...)

[maremaria]

The upside is that people who use unusually wide resolutions probably see a lot of pages that are two-thirds empty and are quite used to it.

...)


This is true. Even in the facebook (the way I see it from my screen ) the page is almost 50% empty .

[meng]

Most new mice have left/right scroll controls. Nice is that they also allow for enlarging web text. So even my aging eyes can use high resolution without using a magnifying glass to read.

I had to drop the handsome dragon from the right side of my blog. As much as I liked him, he's just too much trouble to keep. Right margins - cleared! Web Design 101 lesson learned. :rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing your traffic profile specs. Kinda surprising to me. With flat LCD's becoming so much more affordable, I thought more folks were upgrading than that. I think they just about all come with native 1680x1050 capability. But then, that is quite an adjustment, dealing with tiny web column pages and such, so it's not surprising that some would reset to a lower res.

[heylise]

I like it that the center is not too wide. I have lots of room at right and left, but don't mind that at all. Too long lines are confusing to read.

What I do quite often though, is open Clarity next to another window, and then I have to scroll left-right and back in order to read, and I don't like that at all. So a maximum width is great (for me) but not a fixed width. Would be nice if the width of the text would adapt to the available space. Like it does in Word and such.

Clarity looks nice, but a lot like a well-made book of an institution like a university or so. Looks as if you can find good and reliable information :rolleyes: - but nothing which makes you want to do fun things with money. No wanna-haves, no colors, nothing playful. I would like some things here and there. An interesting book, an intriguing line from a text, and of course where to get it. It's not that I 'want' to spend money, but a place where unexpected things might be found is fun. Even if it is only window shopping. Once in a while you find that book or whatever you would not have found otherwise. And buy it through Clarity...

LiSe

[hilary]

The width does reduce to a certain point - it's about half my screen-width - and then you have to scroll. I think there was some reason why there had to be a minimum width as well as a maximum, but can't remember what it was... ;)

I like the sound of 'doing fun things with money'! Not quite sure what you have in mind, though... can you point me to a site or two that does this well?

[solun]

Hi Hilary,
by now you have a lot of really good help from the posts I am seeing.

Problem is, selling spiritual wisdom is a bit of a contradiction, and may not lend itself so well to making money. "Buy wisdom and do not sell it" from another old book of wisdom ...

Anyhow, you could link up with some of the online sites like facade.com to do readings or direct to your site ...
Plus, let's be honest , if it's about money, it's about buying low and selling high. Maybe branch out a bit, be willing to sell 'related' things' - like a bit of clothing, jewelery, art, casting stix (could be beautifully decorated popsicle stix), etc.

Look around for things related to what the I ching represents - nature, the east, spirituality ... go a hunting online, there's lots of stuff out of China that isn't all discount store oriented - no pun intended - and out of India, too.
There's no shame in making the money you need. But I am of the school and experience that spirituality and money often mix in ways we can't predict or control.

Peace and best of luck. This is the year of the Golden Rat.

[hilary]

Hi Hilary,
by now you have a lot of really good help from the posts I am seeing.

Absolutely!

Problem is, selling spiritual wisdom is a bit of a contradiction, and may not lend itself so well to making money. "Buy wisdom and do not sell it" from another old book of wisdom ...

Oh yes, lots of dangerous areas here, many chasms to learn. I think one of them is actually the whole idea that anyone is 'selling spiritual wisdom.' Obviously that can't be done, so I must be selling something else. Like attention, care, experience, maybe providing one way that removes some of the obstacles that get in the way of receiving spiritual wisdom, for some people. I suppose it's something like the way doctors don't sell health.

... Plus, let's be honest , if it's about money, it's about buying low and selling high...
That's one thing it could be about, but I think it misses the core of the thing - which is about the agreement between two people to enrich one another.

[musicpeace]

Hilary, the first time I read about you on The Business Oasis, I immediately thought of Tarot.com where they have an extensive iching system. I suspect that you are well aware of it, but bring it up just in case.

There was a period where I would use it extensively. I loved it. Used it to self reflect.

Are you aware of www.tarot.com?

[hilary]

Hi Eliana,

Yes, I know tarot.com - love their technology, greatly admire their commitment to divination and the creative flair of the whole thing. In fact, the only thing I haven't liked about what they do (apart from owning iching.com, of course...) is the readings! I have an account there, I've had several tarot readings, and somehow they never seem to make a real connection. Also, they always used to have this truly dire habit of giving away half an I Ching reading, and withholding the rest until you signed up. I don't know whether they still do this... really, really hope not.

Thank you for the reminder, though. I need to take a deeper look at what they're doing now, and see what I can learn from it.

[solun]

"That's one thing it could be about, but I think it misses the core of the thing - which is about the agreement between two people to enrich one another." - Hilary

Well said.